Does Discontinuing Model Ranges Come Back To Bite Games Workshop?

[@herethical]

It feels particularly bad for new players. It took me ~8 months to build and paint one killteam of 10 Kasrkin models, and expanding that to a whole army would take me years. It seems almost guaranteed that some of my models will be scrapped unless I buy them right as they release, which might contradict with what seems coolest to me. Thankfully I found a group where people play One Page Rules so the models used don't matter as much, allowing me to just buy the models I like best (which happen to be old GW fantasy dark elves). Being outside of the GW game ecosystem mentally just relieves a lot of stress, and I don't feel as bad about taking time to make my army. I recommend OPR or any other non-GW game system to those who feel similarly, but unfortunately GW is the hegemonic power in miniatures and that might not be an option for everyone

[@gamelover260]

the problem is, now they are squatting entire ranges, or invalidating If you played AOS with beasts, and all your friends played AOS, they just remove an army and no one plays Old world, what are you gonna od? buy a whole new army? that sounds really fun My friend had tons of custom deathwatch......he now has jack shit and if you liked orks and tau, by end of year, your kill teams are gone its not just removing old stuff its removing new stuff and removing currenty stuff. the DKOK are only about 3 years old for kill team

[@wokehammer40k]

"I'm not psychic but if I was, I'd be unable to see that future." is a great sentence lol

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

😆

[@MadMax-el2el]

I have a night goblin army from whfb... they will not be playing old world. They will continue to exist as a kings of war army. GW, made their choice with end times, i was not happy, but i was willing to give things a chance... this was followed up by the slap in the face that was AOS 1.0. This customer is done with GW games/business practices. But my history with GW is nothing but slap in the face after slap in the face. Squats, og harlequins, the entire nid art direction change i love the old goofy AF turkey warriors and their metal counterparts. But that 3rd ed direction change and rules retooling, right as i was neck deep in university. Ugh slap in the face. The Dark eldar codexless era... the no daemons through most of 9th... 8th ed daemon being the wonderbread utility faction of chaos, power and winning were not the problem. It was just boring... 7th ed daemons being unplayable because broken AF... beast snaggas, those are not grim dark orks, those ars green primarius marines that forgot their armor in rowboatyman's flagship. Switching to multiple game systems mostly skirmish sized has been a boon for my mental health. No longer meta chasing has me enjoying the hobby again. If game system X becomes a mess, i can fall back on w, y and z. Until X fixes itself or simply gets replaced at my hobby table. games currently being played, asoiaf, mcp, infinity, shatterpoint and battletech. Future in question infinity n5 is coming, asoiaf s5 has landed like a lead balloon, shatterpoint i dont know how long my ewoks only will last Games on the shelf malifaux, opr, Mordhiem, bloodbowl, guildball, kings of war Games in the doghouse, warmachine Future projects conquest, weaver courts

[@jasonh.7661]

Remember when they discontinued everything that wasn’t WHB, 40K and LorR in the 2010s? That sucked.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

The dark times indeed.

[@Dram1984]

The “problem” is that only casual players care and GW doesn’t care about casuals. Competitive players don’t care because they’re used to buying a new army every six months anyway and don’t get attached to their models, it’s just a game to them. GW has gone all in on a “whale hunting” strategy. They don’t care about the vast majority of players who buy a box here and there because they aren’t loud and visible.

[@scepteredisle]

I don't think that's true at all. Some 80% of GW's customers don't play any games - they just buy models to paint and collect. And you see GW put massive effort into getting these customers and stopping them going elsewhere. That's why AoS is largely just making display models now, not gaming pieces. 40K has recently taken a massive drop in quality due to them knowing Space Marines etc will sell in significant quantities no matter what and that's why they have interns working on Space Marines while their best artists work on AoS. They know no one cares about AoS o plays it - but randoms buy the models.

[@40KWill]

Nah. Competitive players don't buy a new army every 6 months.

[@Ghostbear.78]

I gave up on Warhammer 40k when GW eliminated nearly all of my Space Marines. What really got me was that they did it after already releasing the cards for 10th edition; they should have done so between editions. I am currently in the process off selling off my pile of opportunity on eBay.

[@optimalgamestate]

You mentioned the healthy idea of picking up the books / rules / cards etc when you're ready to play rather than ending up buying them and never using them. GW is burning us at both ends though, everything is a limited fomo release. You get the books/cards now or risk never getting them because they've gone out of print. Then 4 years later (or sooner) GW tell you to dump them all and give another fomo release!

[@yeled6131]

I think there is a fundamental issue that isn't fully addressed in your discussion. There is a distinction between GW's ability to maintain infinite inventory and supporting products that were sold previously. I know you bring this up in the context of Old World, but I believe this is at the heart of the issue. GW in all their marketing has made Matched Play the way to play. You get points updates and rules updates, all based around Matched Play. If you play another way--Path to Glory in AoS or Crusade in 40k--all your rules and points are still by-and-large based on results from Matched Play. Therefore, it's almost impossible to divorce yourself from Matched Play and go your own way. And everything GW is telling you through their marketing is Matched Play, Matched Play, Matched Play. Very few casual players are going to ignore this. Matched Play is generally considered the "real way" to play. So the issue isn't that the Sacrosanct Chamber of Stormcast is no longer being sold. The issue is that it's not allowed in Matched Play. It gets no rules updates. No points updates. You bought and painted an army that's only a few years old, and you aren't allowed to play it in any setting but your basement...and even then as soon as they do a points/rules update it is essentially out of date. I agree 100 percent that GW can't maintain all their products forever. I also agree that it is probably hard for them to support their entire ranges with rules, forever. But there are relatively simple solutions that GW could employ to support the models their customers bought previously and spent countless hours building and painting. For example, they could commit to supporting rules for units for a certain number of years after they are sold. Not from their release date, but so long as they remain commercially available, plus some number of years. In AoS they are doing this for one year, but it's probably not enough. And they did this without warning. They need to get out ahead of this. Then, when they do stop supporting the rules, they could allow you to proxy models as official policy. Stormcast all look the same anyway. Why can't a Liberator look like what they are selling as Liberators, or optionally you could use your Sequitor models and they are also Liberators? And do the same thing with Beasts of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness. Perhaps various Gors could all count as Maurauders, while Bullgors count as Ogroids. It may be hard to have a 1 to 1 perfect ratio, but an official guide that says "X and Y counts as Z and A counts as B" would go a long way and would be easy to maintain.

[@ElGreco15]

They could also sell STLs of out of print minis and licenses to resell. Then everyone gets a chance to collect models they want and GW needs to have no inventory

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

I agree with much of what you have said, and we have said so much in previous videos on this topic. The truth is, while it is not 'official policy' to use proxies or 'counts ad models', they have an long history at official events and especially independent run events of allowing this. I have played in countless large tournaments for 20+ years, and I can tell you no one has ever batted an eye at someone doing something on the level of sequitor = liberator, minotaur = ogoroid. I think a lot of the reaction is just panic from people that haven't attended such events and don't have the experience to talk about it. I really appreciate your comments :)

[@ArborRails]

My entire experience since getting back into 40k (via Kill Team) has been basically having whatever list or models I was working toward are now fundamentally changed, nerfed, or obsolete by the time they're ready for the table top. Is that my problem for being a slow hobbyist? Probably, but it's a feels bad that is kind of normalized within the hobby. In their own words, GW are a miniatures company. They're good at that and I think most agree. But all their constant short-lived & self-destructing rules sets, codices and supplement books are BS and I really want to just paint the models I like and use non-gw rules when I want to game.

[@bazzab1023]

I'd love to see a classic 40k ruleset from GW. There'd be interest from people who have older armies and want to use them, absolutely, but I think (much as with TOW) there's a lot of people who miss how GW rulesets used to feel. TOW is about model nostalgia but it's also about a ruleset that feels like how the game used to feel, going back to things like pronounceable names and equipment options and detailed list-building and a reasonable pace. There are a lot of people showing up for TOW that weren't engaging with GW much/at all before and I think you'd see the same thing with a 40k equivalent. Yes, you can pull out your whatever-edition books or play OPR, but it's different when you get the TOW treatment. Anyway, I'd play the hell out of that game.

[@jeancouscous]

I haven't waited for GW to tell me that i can still play 2nd edition warhammer 40k :D

[@acidnine3692]

I agree wholeheartedly. HH2 is basically the continuation of 7th ed I wanted, even with the flaws it has. better terminators, in depth weapon rules, rebalancing of factions... it has a lot of what I want, and projects like Liber Badab, panoptica, or the Liber Xenos orks help bring the old editions to a better balance. not perfect, mind you, but better.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Respect

[@bigron9990]

Really enjoying these vids keep it up

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Really enjoying this comment keep it up 😉

[@Kalakmol]

I will say that their decision to discontinue troop profiles has kept me from keeping up with the current edition of AOS. I’ve moved on to playing other rule sets like One Page Rules.

[@tobyjohnson9136]

In fairness, as I suspected at the time, GW didn't permanently remove those Stormcast units, they are almost (Maybe in the end, all) getting newstyle equivalents, maybe with slightly different names but are clearly the same units, in some cases they are the same units with the same name. So those models were not all invalidated for long. What was weird was GW announcing it in such a way which implied they were getting squatted rather than replaced with new kits. That and the fact that so many models were turned over en masse after 7-8 years. While it doesn't seem like Stormcast are easy cash for GW to commit to having so many units for them like marines in 40k, them getting a new army book early every edition from always being in the starter set seems to fuel their list (And with modern GW that means kits too) bloat. Otherwise GW really hasn't squatted units other than characters or weapon options (Culled a lot of finecast ones from the Tau most recently but they were themselves at the time 2006-2009 just new releases for their own sake and nobody actually cared about them as characters. There is a non-trivial chance they even come back in plastic next Tau codex) since the Squats themselves. The only examples are Space Marines being replaced with Primaris variants which they now seem to have abandoned, upscaling old units instead like the Sternguard, Scouts and Termies. RIP Landspeeder, the new Primaris version is different enough not to count as a true replacement to me. Other than the Primaris where some units replaced marine ones but are stated to be different units, I can't actually think of a plastic kit that was discontinued rather than replaced and your mileage may vary on if you consider the Primaris as true unit replacement in those cases. Somebody mentioned Death Watch but those models (Other than their now slightly shorter frame and technically being "first born" as well as not making sense now, isn't Mk X armour the best now not their bespoke Mk8? Aren't DW supposed to be the best?) are still playable just not as a whole army, while some kit options may be removed (Were any?) from the Death Watch in the rules, no doubt those kits will be ones that live on in normal marine armies yet. (Except maybe that kill team) The kits weren't squatted. It'd be like saying removing Basilisks from the CSM codex as an option for Iron Warriors was the Basilisks being discontinued, it wasn't. Welcome to the world of Chaos Space Marines where you lose unit options all the time but the kits of those units are just going to a new home, we may see a reverse to some degree if Daemons lose their codex in 40k. GW haven't actually bit the bullet and stopped codex bloat from new kits because every kit is another justification for another new release in the form of a new version of an old kit. Things like the new website (Not helped but the ending of the FoC) being totally horrible and some older kits or even new ones (Hi, hammerfall bunker are you and the primaris first strike servo turret having fun sitting unbuilt or in display cabinets of the Valrak-like whales?) sit on the shelves and get lost in the noise may change this but it seems like GW has a handle on doing "Online only" as a solution. Up unit 2015 we didn't really see unmanageable unit lists like we see with Tyranids now or Space Marines post-Primaris. In terms of ending support for whole "specialist" games? GW is utterly ruthless, discontinuing units with plastic kits in 40k and Fantasy? Not so much. It's only a technicality with Warhammer fantasy since they ended the whole game but had rules and most of the kits still in production with AoS. (Brets and Tomb Kings aside)

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Who could argue with an essay like that!

[@timunderbakke8756]

I’m somewhere in between. I am primarily a hobby player, but I do feel the changes because I only play 6-7 times a year. I have not bought a 10th edition book. Thankfully there are websites who can make the datasheets available now that GW has put some of them behind a paywall. It’s silly because my rules are still in a free index but the model datasheets got locked up. Which is why I’m really contemplating solo Kill Team to help tide me over as an evergreen product

[@TheTobaccoman]

For me ? It does , I don’t trust them and deliberately ignore most off shoot games of theirs knowing how quickly they will discontinue model lines and whole games. I don’t trust them and it won’t force me to rebuy whole armies and that money will go elsewhere. When I started this hobby a long time ago, I loved the company and the game. Now I love the experience of the game and really hate the company. All they needed to do was not make models legends and keep the rules up. Not squat model lines and just release refreshes. Updates are great , all my stuff being trashed is awful.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

What stuff was trashed? Just curious. Thanks for the comment.

[@ConspiracyOpossum]

I did my best to start 40k got 1000 points i thought scout snipers seem cool then you know

[@TheKGBtsar]

Fourth edition AOS, doesn't look like its very evergreen. I can take my 2nd and 3rd edition books off a shelf and play that edition Spearhead has the cards so that can be a evergreen product I just hope that going forward they keep all Spearhead warbands balanced against each other, 2n edition Spearhead 😬

[@rcdemoral1982]

I foresee for 2nd ed, they'll make new spearheads and the old ones invalidated. 100%. :(

[@Skelebob-sp7pn]

I don't think it does come back to bite them, at least in the long term, they'd be in a lot more trouble if it really did matter that much given how much they've squatted over ~50 years of existence. You hear the complaints of course when it happens, but as with most GW 'controversies' it all peters out after a week or two, they only really squat what doesn't sell well, or is going to be replaced (notable exception there for forgeworld), so most don't care and carry on as normal. And the only one going scorched earth is that Dark Elf guy from the end of wfb. And if there's enough noise from the community, things do come back, see Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Old World and for models, Karskin etc. And one other thing with GW not doing STLs of old models is remember they have decades of models from before digital sculpting, that's a lot of work scanning and correcting them for probably not many sales. I'd also imagine they'd be pirated to hell and back.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

A very reasonable take

[@chadnine3432]

Alls I know is that GW has priced me out of their product. I can't keep up with their release schedule, FOMO tactics, and poor stocking.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Sorry to hear that mate. I find it best to find something you can enjoy at your own pace with your friends, GW or not.

[@MrLigonater]

Absolutely fellas! People talk about “Rules Agonostic Games,”. But I think it should be turned on it head. The focus of hobbyists should be on collecting “Rules agonists armies.” Buy the models that inspire you, build them the way you want and then use whatever rules you enjoy. When you stop enjoying rules, find new rules.

[@steeldrac]

I started building my own Space Marine Chapter in the late 90s. I haven't revisited them in 10 years. I don't believe I'm missing anything, but at some point my enjoyment of minis diverged from my enjoyment of the game. I stopped enjoying the game (mainly the community) but the minis I still like them and one day I'll finish at least 7 full companies.

[@Eganize]

I know you guys mentioned it doesn't affect the more active hobbyist folks as much, but I think there is a particular sub group it does. Apologies if I missed it in the conversation. That group being the folks that don't like the way modern GW is going, or the ones who prefer the nostalgia, narrative and aesthetics of the older stuff. The ones who still collect tons of product and are huge hobbyists in their own right, and play just as many games, but prefer building, reading and working with the older stuff (models, editions, lore, etc.)

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

That's fair, but I think buying the old stuff used is fairly accessible (for the most part). I had a pretty easy time buying an all metal 1990's high elf army and got them for below what they would cost if they were on the shelf today.

[@EarlofChutney]

I for one eagerly await the second great burning of old world armies in 4 years time. Probably I’ll be playing Oathmark, or Erewhon or 6th Ed, or opr or Mayhem etc..

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

I like your style

[@ThaBenMan]

Here's an idea for a possible future video: What non-GW games/products do well at your store? Is there anything you guys do to try to promote any non-GW games?

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

We take suggestions on our patreon! Thanks for watching mate :)

[@theendofmyropemydude]

I guess the problem is they sold a good which doesnt naturally devalue itself, and then chose to devalue it themselves later. If GW sold me a rock, and then told me i could no longer use the rock in their official games, and now even some non-official gamers will deny me because they want to practice for tournaments, all because its too hard to write updated balance sheets for the rock, when they released seventeen new primaris rock datasheets this year, im going to be pretty fucking mad lmao The problem is their unwillingness to update data sheets for models they don't sell anymore.

[@redsven7624]

I very much have moved away from the idea of buying minis for a game, I try buy hobby projects I like with a view that I will find a game to use them in. My wfb armies are mainly saga forces now, and excess being sold. Not touched old world, I have old editions and not about to buy a rehashed old rules set. A few tangential thoughts. Some of the redundancy now comes from either no development plan (constantly expanding ranges like stormcast) which means they create the need to trim. Or planned obsolescence like kill team or the 3 year edition cycle. If that is the new excepected model then it has two possible consequences one devaluation of the product, if it is seen as disposable then you will struggle to command premium prices. Two discouraging casual engagement with the game, too your codex point. If that is an intentional trend that would seem to be a shift from expanding the market to monetising the existing base, which I am not sure is healthy? Two is the current development cycle compatible with that long term hobby development that has traditionally been the goal, or does it drive disengagement from the game properties? I am not a typical gw customer, so not sure if my approach to AoS is common in as much as I am not going to play it in the next 9 months so I will skip the edition.

[@TheEr910]

No, it won't bite them in the butt. However, GW can stop making new Space Marines and Stormcast when another faction is updated.

[@yeewingcheung3998]

I both agree and disagree with the discontinuing of model ranges. From a business standpoint I agree. But when it comes to the greater IP and narrative I completely disagree. Narrative has always been an enormous part of the IP. Removing model ranges invalidates some of that in-game narrative. In terms of Warhammer 40k, making the setting of "31k" to 40k off limits to players I think is a mistake.

[@JbTexan-od7wx]

You are right. This isn't a Pokemon model. You can't catch them all. Just get models you like when they come out. Do not be a completes, even in a narrow sense.

[@Neverwinter27]

People will just find other ways to mitigate the risk of spending GW levels of money on an army that would be invalidated within a few years timeframe. This can range from 3D printing to 2nd hand purchases off of eBay, to even recast, and none of them will benefit local game stores. GW stock valuation always needs to go up every year, and I truly think these incidents of product obsolescence will only happen more and more frequently and that in turn will push more and more in the Warhammer communities towards those solutions.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

It's possible.

[@gor_drum]

After what Corvus Belli just did to Aleph, GW doesn’t seems so bad.

[@kudosbudo]

if you factor in miniature agnostic games your minis almost have infinite value.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

To the moon!

[@mogwaiman6048]

No, because they re-release them at a later time to a younger audience that will buy them.

[@BjornKuma]

After killing my Deathwatch and Kill Teams, I'm out completely on their games and their business model. I don't like having my time wasted, so I'll invest it in other games that take my time seriously.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

That's totally fair man! Were you not planning on ever building or painting anything new? Just curious. Or is this just, I really wanted my stuff to last longer. Which is a totally fair expectation. Do you play tournaments or just with friends? No reason to stop using your toys if you play casual with your buds.

[@BjornKuma]

@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Oh, I won't stop playing games, they just won't be modern GW games anymore. It's more complicated than just sunsetting my purchases, that was just the last straw for me. Their rules are bad (40k is a bad card game), the pure focus on comp play strips narrative play of it's options and fun, constant price hikes, lazy sculpts, printed media is invalid BEFORE it's released... on and on the list goes. And I'm not alone. My entire group has moved on with 10th. When we play 40k it's an older edition or OPR now. I print a lot of our new stuff and we never have to wait on GW's logistical issues. It's actually much better...

[@leopard2690]

Nothing against it but I think GW should have a roadmap of minis that will be gone. Like a 1 year earlier warning.

[@garyjenson1326]

I just found out an oil temp sensor on my Subaru is "obsolete". It's a 2011 and I'm still driving it, rediculous. Don't these companies have a responsibility to the products they make? I guess not with shareholder capitalism. Thankfully I play necromunda and don't have to worry about this. Even if gw glassed the planet tomorrow people would still play necromunda.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Yea I hate that stuff on essentials. There is next to no consumer protection with the predatory nature of big business, especially on vehicles, cellphones, etc

[@earnestwanderer2471]

So, if you run events at your store, how strict are you about proxies? And if people just come in to play on your tables, how strict are they regarding the same? Also, regarding using the most current rules and updates.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Our philosophy is pretty simple. The tables are for 'customers'. If you support the shop in whatever way you are able, I could give a toss how you play with your toy soldiers :) Thanks for the question mate.

[@wesleyejackson]

My recent thought is that people are less upset about the miniatures being cancelled and more that their access to the game is disrupted.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

A good way to put it actually

[@scepteredisle]

Old World would shift far more models if it was affordable (which it isn't and is even less affordable after a random 10% increase this year) - but it would sell far better if there were... new modern sculpts.... And people largely dislike Primaris. They prefer "Firstborn" but want realistic proportions which is probably what GW should have done in the first place. The Terminators and Sternguard released last year was explicitly "not Primaris, but whatever you want". People want new models of the older stuff that LOOK good. They don't want old 1999 models or brand new designs. You can't beat the old guard at GW who have moved on. What you can do is update it which GW have largely being doing with great success.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

It's possible that there are a lot of online threads discussing the dislike of primaris, but man oh man are they popular in store. Most people I come into contact with really like the new scaling of the models. There is always a big gap between what loud people are discussing online and what the majority of people who actually purchase the stuff think/do/say. Something to consider at least. I really appreciate the comment.

[@redouroboros8923]

Too much stuff coming out ; slow it down , but it’s not new stuff but whole lines no longer supported, a figure here or there sure but to invalidate a whole army

[@Northern-Man]

Your comparison with other things hit a note with me. "If you don't eat food when it's fresh, it'll get tossed out." Whilst not perfect, it's good to remind people that everything has a shelf life. Even consoles lose support, board games become so frail they can't be used again. The nature of life itself is temporal. It's a harsh truth, but a truth nonetheless.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Well said

[@WengoYo]

How could they have possibly taken away my lovely Talonmaster, dreadnoughts aso ? :( Just make a new 40K game version for firstborn stuff like you did for heresy already GW so the kids can play with their Pirmaris power Rangers and the grown-ups play with their Space Marines.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

You could just play the edition you want as well, so long as you have mates to do it with.

[@WengoYo]

@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Most people don't care to play old editions. You gotta have the new and fancy stuff. I think its more about a company with record profits respecting the people that made it sucessful and spend their hard earned money on first born models. The whole primaris thing was a huge mistake in the long run imho. Killed the 40K vibe. I mean look at the horrible models they are releasing lately. I get that they have to keep producing product but they should just have updated the existing models instead of reinventing everything. That way you could still use the old models if you like them more. Thats just my personal opinion ofc.