Does God Cause Sickness: A Look At Corporate Guilt

[@jrhemmerich]

As a lawyer, I think this topic is super important because it affects our view of justice and issues often raised against God, for example the flood. The historical consequences do seem to be connected to corporate punishment in various degrees. The “sins of the fathers visited on the children to the third and fourth generation”. This is plausibly either corporate responsibility or individual participation the father’s example. But it seems to fall on those who don’t always participate in their parent’s sin. The infant who gets fetal alcohol syndrome is bearing the historical sin or failure of a parent. I do think the distinction between consequence and punishment is helpful. In Deut. 5:9 the idea behind “visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,” has some ambiguity to it. It likely means in this context and the greater context of Deut. 32, that Israel’s collective sins would result in exile for their children, but God’s promised renewal for Israel to become a faithful people would never be cast aside (1000 being symbolic). But I find it is very significant that while God does judge corporately in history, his eternal judgements are finely tuned to individual action (as stated in Ezk. 18). This eternal judgement seems to be the standard used in Israel’s judicial settings (Deut. 24:16), where it is explicitly said that judicially sons are not to be punished for their father’s sins. This distinction is helpful in sorting out original sin and the suggestion that a person’s ultimate responsibility is linked to their state of knowledge (or mens rea in legalese)(Isa. 7:16, Jn. 15:22). A child can suffer death because of corporate guilt (on account of Adam’s sin death passed to all), yet an individual is not eternally condemned based upon another’s sin but only the sin they individually commit. This seems a good way to marry both the justice of God to children in the flood (who suffer the corporate punishment of their parents) as well as to the parents who are individually guilty. There is even a sense in which God, like the child protection agency, is saving children from the sins of their parents. True, it is a justice unique to God who can raise the dead. But is not a future judgement by God the only way to square individual and group responsibility? And in the future these children will rise up and call God just-both in his severity toward their parents and in his mercy to them. Parsing individual and corporate responsibility is super difficult. But only Christianity seems to provide a solution to both problems. We see the good suffer for others and evil escape punishment. Only God can make the justice we long for in the present real in the future.

[@collin501]

Really good comment. I think you make a lot of sense on separating out the specific eternal judgment which goes beyond this life, from what people suffer because of the choices of others. I wonder if the following is in line with your own thinking, from Chrysostom's Homily 9 on Matthew, talking about king Herod killing all the babies in Bethlehem. I don't think he has all the details worked out but, but he has the general idea worked out. "What we may suffer unjustly from any one, it tells either to the doing away of our sins, God so putting that wrong to our account; or unto the recompense of rewards. And that what I may say may be clearer, let us conduct our argument in the way of illustration. As thus: suppose a certain servant who owes much money to his master, and then that this servant has been despitefully used by unjust men, and robbed of some of his goods. If then the master, in whose power it was to stay the plunderer and wrong doer, should not indeed restore that same property, but should reckon what was taken away towards what was owed him by his servant, is the servant then injured? By no means. But what if he should repay him even more? Has he not then even gained more than he has lost? Every one, I suppose, perceives it. ...(Discussion on the man delivered unto Satan) ...(Discussion on David and Shimei) ...But what kind of sin had these children, it may be said, that they should do it away? For touching those who are of full age, and have been guilty of many negligences, one might with show of reason to speak thus: but they who so underwent premature death, what sort of sins did they by their sufferings put away? Did you not hear me say, that though there were no sins, there is a recompense of rewards hereafter for them that suffer ill here? Wherein then were the young children hurt in being slain for such a cause, and borne away speedily into that waveless harbor? Because, do you say, they would in many instances have achieved, had they lived, many and great deeds of goodness. Why, for this cause He lays up for them beforehand no small reward, the ending their lives for such a cause."

[@jrhemmerich]

@@collin501 Thanks Collin. And thanks for the reference. It’s always good to see how ancient Christians addressed these questions.

[@EzekielSargent]

This was a great video, but the discussion and nuance brought out towards the end was key to the rest of the video. Great stuff guys! May the Lord keep you and bless you!

[@ChildofGod98765]

I needed this! Please pray for me and my children that’s ALL I NEED. I get harassed for sharing my testimony and for asking for prayers. I want to give up on my life. But God won’t let me. As a single mother I’m so overwhelmed at times because both of my children are autistic. I’m desperately struggling trying to support them and myself my husband passed years ago I lost my job as a social worker at Forsyth hospital because I declined the vaccine. I declined because of my pre existing health condition lupus and heart disease. I was denied my medical/religious exemption. I wish I could go back to the hospital but the mandate is still in place for hospitals that participate in Medicare and Medicaid all employees must be vaccinated against covid 19. I’m waitressing and I’m so 🙏🏾THANKFUL to be working again, but I’m not making nearly enough to make ends meet. But even as I struggle every month, and even though I’m ashamed because of my situation and ashamed from all the harassment. Compassion is Jesus’s way. I have faith that God will provide. Please pray for me and my children.

[@tonypino5415]

Praying for you sistet

[@sandrathomas2893]

🙏🙏🙏

[@nearlyrighteouslad3213]

Will pray for you. Have you tried asking for aid from your local church?

[@keithnarlenebocks8169]

Inspired. I'm blessed not under a curse because of Jesus.

[@grammym8262]

I don't think we should be so focused on our life here on earth. We as Christian are going to suffer we are going to get sick and die. We need to be concern about the second death.

[@karenscougale9617]

Always learning!!! Amen

[@chad_stew]

You guys are working through how to articulate some difficult stuff. Thanks for that! I love that y'all are willing to process live during the show. It's so helpful for us that you do that, I think. Michael Rountree talked about (not guilty) Daniel repenting on behalf of Judah, Josh mentioned someone (not guilty) repenting on behalf of their family. Michael Miller talked about (not guilty) police officers repenting for the corporate nature of the sin of police brutality and its inordinate impact on black individuals and communities. All of that is beautiful and actually effectual (unless we want to say that Daniel's prayer wasn't effectual!) Someone also mentioned something like "not repenting on behalf of white people". That seems to pull corporate sins of the majority culture in the U.S. out from the possibility of being in the category that contains Daniel on behalf of Judah, family member on behalf of family, police officer on behalf of police force. I think me, or anyone else, (U.S. citizen seen as majority culture) repenting in my heart, in prayer, to individuals or groups, expressing sorrow for what has been, and continues to be done by our country towards folks of color can be appropriate and helpful. I don't understand the pulling of that example out from the category you guys articulated.

[@tony.biondi]

Check out 'Saga: Israel And The Demise Of Nations' by Ramon Bennett, if you can find it. He uses the biblical criteria for corporate sin and judgement and then applies the criteria to modern nations

[@nickknight4790]

Corporate guilt: the exile is a good example of the consequences God required for disobedience.

[@beatitudespeople]

Is the Lou Engle prayer an acknowledgment of his corporate guilt or intercession of a saint?

[@beatitudespeople]

Has Jeremiah 31:29-34 come up? There God says that a feature of the New Covenant is individual rather than corporate responsibility with an elevation of the heart posture of the whole community resulting. Is the West individualistic at least in small part because of this New Covenant feature? Could that argument perhaps also be made?

[@Henriette-van-der-Ende]

Yay Ken Fish! Have him on the show again please.

[@collin501]

Are you guys saying that people in Christ receive no temporal judgment for sin? If 1 Corinthians 11 suggests that the people are being judged now so that they not be judged in the end, doesn't that prove they are in Christ because they are destined to be saved in eternity, and yet still receiving temporal judgment for sins in this life?

[@anothercog99]

Interesting thoughts- wish you had touched on marriage a bit, I think that's a place where the sin of one can bring punishment/consequences on the other. David lost his son because of his sin but Bathsheba lost so much more. One spouse is unfaithful and then transmits disease to the other- is that punishment or just consequence? Because they are joined as one is there a place for repentance on the side of the innocent spouse?

[@nearlyrighteouslad3213]

I think with disease it's more of a matter or "mundane" consequence, but those diseases already exist as "built in punishment" to the sexually immoral. I think it's fair to say that as a married couple is meant to be one flesh, they suffer judgement together to some extent, aside from the normal consequences of life.

[@theologymatters5127]

Miller...Ezekial 18:2, Jeremiah 31:29 and Exodos 20:6 all clearly refire generational curse. In the Exodus scripture, you can clearly see it's hebrew poetry meant to highlight God's lovingkindness

[@beatitudespeople]

The most corporate punishment on mankind is death and each individual person who repents is exempt from the law of sin and death. Right? Romans 1-8?

[@seanvann1747]

Question for Mike. Were those demons cast out of believers in Christ? Thanks 👍

[@nancystorm]

O.K. I haven't watched the full episode, so maybe you'll get to this eventually. But ... Ezekiel 18 says God will not punish children for the sins of their ancestors ever again.

[@collin501]

Did he ever do that?

[@neiton2b2]

I don't understand what being a fan of the podcast has to do with deliverance. Isn't deliverance a thing to be praised/celebrated?

[@annaboshier6680]

I’m so glad to hear Roundtree say point blank govts are corrupt. Josh might tell you you’re getting a bit conspiratorial though 😅

[@ryanadams5719]

Sin causes sickness….We are guaranteed suffering in this world. Because…..well……because… Sin. The good news is that God has triumphed over this sin. Therefore the guaranteed suffering is temporal and momentary….and the victory and healing is everlasting. In the midst of the temporal and momentary……it is not always easy to remember……that suffering here is far better than the eternal suffering that Jesus came to deliver Us from. We would be a pitiful people had Christ come to deliver Us from the temporal and momentary. Keep Your eyes on Him….Our eternal King.

[@LifeOnHoth]

Look... It doesn't matter how any culture is thinking about the text about Corinth. What matters is what PAUL meant. When it comes down to it we are all guilty of something. Guilt is ALWAYS individualistic. I'm not guilty of anything because my granpa did something wrong. I'm guilty because surely I did something wrong. So I think it's a downright wrong discussion to have, which takes focus away from what's important. That we are all sinners headed for a rather flamey death. It is the CONSEQUENCE of sin. It's not God punishing us all because some few people of us sinned. I'll tell you what NEVER happened. Jesus walking up to a group of people telling them God is gonna punish them for their collective sins. It never happened that he walked up to one person telling him that because you sinned, my Father is gonna punish your family, your kids, your aunt and uncle, even tho it was you who had sinned. No. He walked up to people, let them know He knows what they did, and met them exactly how they needed to be met to be pulled out of as far as we know mostly specific sin(s). Then he told them go be free basically. But don't do the wrong thing again. We gotta look at the nature of Jesus. When did he hold a group accountable for what a single person did among them? Nope. And what is the point of telling this to us? That we gonna get sick and die early if someone among us do the last supper wrong? Let me ask you - where is the border? the limit where u can say these people matter to my being punished by God and these people I don't need to be caring too much about how they are doing this, coz it doesn't affect me at all anyway? It's silly. So, say you wanna place the border @ the door of your so called local church. How in the world can you know who does it wrong and who does it right? Coz it's not always apparent. And frankly, the way you interpret it together with the way we have organized our communions nowadays makes it virtually impossible to do it wrong. We have only bread crumbs or a small non-tasty cracker and juice. Why care about this at all then? Nobody will get sick and die early then anyway. It's hard to say - since this letter I believe is written to be read by all christians - where to place the border. And what kinda christian life is this when you have to constantly watch out what everyone else is doing to make sure u aren't part of that unfortunate group of people that gets punished because ur friend did something wrong. It's impossible. Are we next gonna make the question of salvation into a non-individual thing? Coz I'd like that. I'd like that a lot. U know. My granma is in heaven now. She definitely was saved enough for both her, her husband, and the rest of the family and people on her prayer list. I'd like to call myself saved because of her persistance in the faith. So I can be free to do what I want and feel like in my flesh here in the world. Can't you see how quickly this gets pretty convoluted and silly? I don't believe there is anywhere after Jesus died for us that u can say anyone is being punished by God when they have actually received Him as their savior and king and believe in him. What there are is - again - CONSEQUENCES of sins. Totally different thing. Most other stuff is just an exercise in philosophy. And man! Rowntree - I respect you a whole lot - but this is danger #1 for a calvinist - to apply too much philosophy to bible where it doesn't belong, and frankly I think you are a bit on deep waters here. It has to be said, and I said it before I watched the whole video. I still love you guys and love what you do. But come on...! :) hehe.

[@annaboshier6680]

Haha! I got a tad angry at miller after that vacksine comment. Only just forgiven him I think 😅 crack up

[@jakejones7783]

What did miller say about the vaccine? What episode is it?

[@richardmartin8788]

Just 2 points I'd like to make briefly. 1. All nations will be judged according to the book of revelation when the bowls of wrath are poured out so believe me when I say 'you don't want to be part of that' you want to be in Christ not in the world especially at that point. we are sojourners in a foreign land once we as wild olive shoots get grafted in to the natural tree that is Israel. Once we are born again our land is Israel, not the earthly one the heavenly one that is prepared for us. 2. Familiar spirits are passed down generationally so sometimes in order to remove thier legal rights it can be helpful to repent and renounce of the original sin that aloud in the demon in. Also bare in mind everyone outside of Christ are still under the law so curses that last generations for sinful behaviour are still in play.

[@richardmartin8788]

Also good point about original sin and generational curses Miller 👍

[@robertdelisle7309]

Do you have a verse for why you believe demonic spirits are inherited or passed down? I think it’s in Galatians where it says that Christ became a curse for us by hanging on the tree. So by dying, he removed all curses for those who believe.

[@keithmayer1417]

The king of Assyria repented, and the people of Ninevah followed.

[@bonniebonnie9388]

God can cause sickness