Does Italy Make The Best Road Bikes? | NERO Show Ep. 104

[@MrJohnnyTN]

I've have toe overlap on every road bike I've ever had. Only issue at slow speed turning and track standing. Feet are not huge (43) but I do like far back cleat position, which does not help.

[@Shadowboost]

For slow speed, you just do it piece wise

[@whatsuphonkycat]

same... every bike

[@anastasiospattakos6650]

Same here, I'm mostly a climber and couldn't have the clips close to the toes. Even with the 167.5mm crank arms and size 40 shoe.

[@TheWoogeroo]

I have huge feet, can get this, just even on XL frames. But nowhere near being an issue while riding , only setting off

[@myxti3669]

Try a supersix evo gen 3 or 4, impossible to get toe overlap unless you run a behind midfoot cleat.

[@Sweetskis]

Another OUTSTANDING episode of The NERO Show!! THE only podcast to never break the spaghetti, drink cappuccino after noon, or mix their garlic with onions! MAMA MIA!!! Welcome to THE Show!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

😂😂😂😂

[@JimUe1]

What the problem is mixing garlic & onions? 🤔

[@Sweetskis]

@@JimUe1 Only the Italians could tell you.

[@MrAntiShill]

Holy glaze….

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

"..drink cappuccino after noon",? Sorry Jack..it's after 10:30 AM unless you're up in the German-speaking northeast

[@Sweetskis]

I don’t think Pinarello gets enough credit for how many sizes they try to offer. While companies are reducing their sizing, Pinarello is continuing to offer the most number sizes per model. They are also offering dealers really strong discounting right now. It’s wild to see Pinarello as a compelling price/performance leader.

[@RylHango]

NA dealers?

[@Sweetskis]

@@RylHango Yes, North American dealers. Pinarello is currently much more affordable than Cerveló or Specialized comparatively specced for example. Dogma F Dura Ace Di2 at $11,000 F5 105 Di2 at $4,450 2022 Pinarello Prince Ultegra was closed out earlier this year for $2,850

[@petersouthernboy6327]

@@Sweetskisthat’s a model year end price blowout on the Dogma F. It’s normally retailed at $15,500.

[@Sweetskis]

@@petersouthernboy6327 Yeah, it’s a great buy for a top spec bike on Dura Ace Di2.

[@robertlight2370]

The bike fit guy on Cade Media mentions this regularly. He particularly recommends Pinarellos for small riders, because of their sizing choices.

[@frugalcode]

Romanian here, thanks for the shoutout 😜🤣

[@888julianman]

Guys - with the rim vs disc debate it certainly does sound like you desperately wanted Cam Nicholls’ test to affirm your confirmation bias towards disc . By Simply stating “discs would have won with fatter tyres and longer course “ , is the antithesis of why tests are done in the first place . 🤔

[@MrAntiShill]

If Ccache were sponsoring Chris with a rim brake bike, he’d be the first person to rim brakes defence. Just another KZbin cycling shill, changing his mind with the wind. #TheSellOutShow

[@davidlilja9180]

We all want our own biases reaffirmed somewhere, until we learn to think for ourselves & not care so much about unimportant people's opinions. Disc brakes and wide tyres do seem to bring lots of advantages. But folks, every bike can wear a pair of rims maxxed out to the frameset's clearance limits & then wear the tyres that meet the rule of 105. Don't care about ETRTO or safety, just go wider still? The whole bike industry (with a few exceptions) says we ALL need a new bike for any of these modern advantages, THAT is the shite part. But hey, we need all those sheep out there buying these 'latest things' so we can steal the tech for our own favourite bikes, don't we? There's no free lunch in cycling, only budget lunches, hunger or coughing up.

[@FaiscaaaH]

If rim brake is faster on a 3min climb it would waaaaaay faster on a 1 hour steep mountain ;) that's pure physics and mathematics. Mr. Chriss just accept the fact, it hurts lesser

[@davidlilja9180]

Tadej, thought so when he could last choose which bike to win on, uphill. Horses for course; & budgets, too.

[@helmetculture]

That's not how the comfort curve works but okay

[@chachoteramo]

Basso Bikes is an Italian brand that are made in Italy and founded in 1977 by Alcide Basso, brother of the world champion Marino Basso.

[@shanexs]

I enjoyed Gravel Worlds. It's the type of 'gravel' ride I do regularly. A good mix of road, woodland tracks, open fields, smoother singletrack etc. I don't have those long open ranch-access style gravel roads you see at many US races such as Unbound etc. and I think it's a better test of all-round bike skills on this type of varied terrain. Gravel means different things to different people so good to mix it up each year I reckon.

[@miketoni1012]

The word gravel actually means loose stone, not like anything you mentioned

[@shanexs]

@@miketoni1012 oh sorry, thanks for explaining what gravel is. My bad lol So Gravel races must only take place exclusively on gravel. And road races exclusively on roads. And mountain bike races on mountains. I’m afraid I have some bad news for you….

[@donbarnard82]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it wasn't a gravel race, but it was a gravel bike race. In other words, a mixed terrain race for which a gravel bike is suited, and that's the appeal of my gravel bike to me.

[@gestell]

Still riding Colnago C50 from 2013...bomb proof genuine all arounder that I would never give up!

[@tommyfreckmann6857]

I love my C40! And is my forever bike and trult made in Italy and at a time that Colnago were doing and innovating their own designs and different. How many miles on your C50?

[@ChrisG-r4b]

He meant C59 if it’s from 2013. C50 is from 2003.

[@NowtDaftTonyFawcett]

Rode gravel worlds and wanted to hate but it was the best course and experience I have had racing a bike. First 10-15 mile was like a dry fast CX race. Plenty of terrain in the 112 mile that could catch you out.

[@austinsympson2635]

Okay Trek Fanboy checking in lol. So I saw Trey's review just before my SLR Gen 8 got delivered and I am coming off an SLR Gen 7. Here are my thoughts. I have always had toe overlap on all my road bikes maybe it is my frame size and bike fit. I do have the seatpost slammed all the way down on a M/L frame my old bike was a 54 so I can confirm the seatpost sizing is super wonky. The bike rides a lot like the gen 7 feeling very familiar, but it is much stiffer. I actually really like this. The old frame felt like a noodle to me in crits coming out of the corners so I was hyped when it was stiffened up. So not sure if you checked the bike geometry but the new madone M/L is more comparable to my 54cm Boone CX bike than my old madone frame. Turns out the extra reach and stack height made it more comfortable for me. Lastly I had identical Groupset and wheels on both bikes and the new bike is much lighter. I'll get it on the scale to find out. I opted not to use the bottles and decided on lighter trek carbon cages. Maybe I'll get aero for race day but right now the style guy in me can't handle the dorkY bottles. In the end I will need to buy the shorter seatmast option for more height adjustment, but other than that I have mostly positive impressions.

[@ratkinson808]

FYI M/L is a 56, so you’ve sized up

[@austinsympson2635]

@@ratkinson808 correct and it feels a bit better. Actually decided on this based on Chris's description of how a bigger bike felt for him a while back.

[@georgesj9536]

Biggest differnce between rim and disc bike test: have em descend Alpe d'Huez in the rain

[@happydays8171]

No kidding. Saved my butt in a rainy group ride going downhill, then an unexpected left turn came up. When you need disc brakes, they're worth it.

[@tarmaccio]

I descended Alpe d‘Huez in the dry and it was a near death experience, can’t even think about rainy conditions 😂😮‍💨

[@davidlilja9180]

I know what you mean, but really? Ya think the Pros would race DOWN Alpe d'Huez in the rain? 🤔 Nah! That's why even disc brake riders have indoor trainers.

[@georgesj9536]

@@davidlilja9180 is there a TLDR for this?

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

NO S--T! But if/when that happens anyone with sense just stops and waits for things to dry out...or the pros call Adam Hansen and get the stage neutralized.

[@PatrickLino]

Best Episode thus far. Nice job fellas.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the Aeroad PL

[@davidsofield7226]

Re gravel worlds. I raced the 55-59 age group having qualified at seven in Western Australia. This was definitely harder. The surfaces changed constantly and needed a lot of handling skills to ride on quickly. The intensity level was way higher than seven . To me a "gravel" race is any terrain where it's too much for a road bike and not rough enough for a mountain bike and this course fit that definition very well . I think seven goes Much closer to a mtb - suitable course. Worlds was a fantastic race.

[@chachoteramo]

My local bike mechanic and fitter is making me up a Basso Venta with the build Ive asked for, at a better price then similar off the shelf brands without the need to upgrade the wheels. In his opinion the frame quality is exceptional. I’m buying it with my heart and not my brain!😂

[@Mikeatcitycycle]

Great episode. I ride an actually made in italy 2023 Basso Diamante Rim. Best handling frame I've ridden to date. Never would have considered them if not for the production of rim brake frames basically on request in todays time. It's heavy af and does not climb great, but every other metric is very good. Direct mount gen4 ee's allow plenty of rubber clearance.

[@friendlybikerepair3958]

Great episode lads. I love the sarcasm about running Ultegra. Here is a video I did with my insta 360 of me mashing a 15 minute descent on rim brakes. In Washington State. Mt Rainer enjoy and see you next week Jesse and Kris haha

[@MrMattie725]

Can't speak on the Madone, but as a small rider on a size 51 Orbea I can say (actually just tested it) that I have at least the same toe overlap.

[@ex3qtor]

I have a toe overlap on my Elves Falath Evo but i`m used to have one since when i was a teenager i used to ride a 70's racing bike with bent frame. It had severe pedal overlap. This made me super aware of my pedal position on every corner :D

[@randomname8442]

Rim/disc. Best part was ‘can you still do it on rim’ and yes, yes you can and you’ll be fine. But for the rest what you say is true, but… if rim development had continued and callipers/frame allowed for a 30mm tyre on, say, 23 internal then where would we be now (not much of an ask, many later rim frames could fit 30/32)? Much of the annoyance is about the removal of a beautifully simple option. Cheaper, easier to live with, just as fast. And still so many disc bikes running 28s on 21 internal.

[@marcvb3364]

We could have gone much wider on rim brakes. All MTBs used to have rim brakes...

[@RyonBeachner]

@@marcvb3364Cantilever brakes are rim brakes, but not all rim brakes are cantilever brakes. Cantilever brakes were used when larger clearance was needed, but they are for worse from a performance perspective than direct mount rim brakes. Also, Cantilever brakes never really had any use outside of old MTB, CX and maybe some touring stuff.

[@krisbowditch827]

He’s in denial 😂😂😂😂

[@roadcyclist1]

​@RyonBeachner don't try to educate him. He is in the cult of rim brake. They don't listen to reason.

[@krbndlls]

I could fit 30mm tyres on my CAAD12 with no issues. The problem comes from actual braking in shitty conditions, disc brakes are just better s you may have only one bike and one wheelset for every season. This does not apply to 90% of time during racing as the limiting factor there is the peloton dynamics.

[@proctermorris6657]

Boys, your sum up of gravel worlds was spot on. I thought it was awesome. It felt like a proper spring classic, on all sorts of surfaces and terrain. Noone needs an 11 hour slog on a boring straight road in outback USA. And if people want knarly, maybe consider Mountain Biking. I personally would love to do races on this sort of course. And the course itself then starts to dictate some of the choices like gearing and tyres. That's some of the charm of it.

[@nicolaasshirley8717]

I’ve never actually heard someone who agrees that watching a gravel race in America would be so unbelievably boring… classics style gravel race was so fun to watch

[@greenbee001]

Selling points for Trek probably could be: 1) lifetime warranty on frame 2) better colours on stock models than other bike brand 3) projectOne customisation for SLR models 4) race proven records by Lidl Trek (Elisa longo borghini, Mads, Johnny Milan)

[@toycreator]

totally agree on the gen 7 and gen 8 Madone. I have both. I hate shoe wheel overlap I almost fell over a cliff once! but all the bike I have had have this issue

[@roeland_st]

I have a toe overlap on my madone gen 8 and it frustrates me so much because you can’t track stand and in really slow and sharp corners it also touches my toes I simply hate it. So much so I came from Spotify to just comment about it. It ruins my white s-phyres. Luckily I still have my Italian Colnago V4Rs to save the day.

[@tapuzak]

I do love it when Chris reminds Jesse that he can see aero.

[@PeterPutz82]

One small point, PT doesn't run tubeless. He does road TT's going to the finest level of detail to optimise his rig. He runs TPU's. Probably need to try TPU's fellas, just to say you have. You'll lose a bunch of grams in rotational weight as well and gain life by not having to faff with sealant.

[@PaintMixa]

Tubeless sealant is a one and done job! Set my Reserves up with Vittoria tubeless (silca) with a footpump over 6 months and haven't had a flat yet. I've run TPUs and those boys get punctures more often than butyl. Tubeless is definitely the less faff option imo.

[@lawrences1347]

​@@PaintMixayour sealant will need replacing by now

[@PaintMixa]

@@lawrences1347 true. i use the silca top up which i can just pour in the valve, but to be honest i find it just as easy to deflate and open up a small lip of tyre and pour it in there, takes less than 5 mins

[@jamiefarrell6496]

Totally agree with JC’s assessment on Gravel Worlds - that’s exactly the kind of ride that looks like fun and would be a blast with a bunch of mates. I think it’s okay to have a race that’s a point of difference that isn’t just a sufferfest (on or off road) and where fun can be a factor. Well done the organisers and - I don’t say this often - well done to the UCI for getting the coverage on KZbin, as well.

[@davidlilja9180]

@@PaintMixa Yep, Tadej could still have won if he'd topped up his own sealant 1 day on the start line at both the Giro & Tour!

[@stevevarga8621]

Yes, Vos used it. She was interviewed about it and she said she used it a lot. Even Kopecky said she used it because she commented on how often she heard the system working.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

WOW!! That’s even better to hear. Thanks for that.

[@ariffau]

171cm tall, 84cm inseam, Bont EU42.5 shoes here with cleats slammed all the way back. I get toe overlap on my commutes’ tight 90 and 180 bends. Toe overlaps are normal on race bikes. If you don’t want toe overlap, get a Brompton which may come with heel strike in return 😂

[@Barry.Batsbak]

Marianne Vos did use the tyre inflation system. Actually, she used it in the sprint as well. Both Kopecky and Marianne stated this in an interview with Sporza.

[@kvloover]

UCI have streamed some track races in the past, it's an awesome idea I hope they continue and improve with more road and gravel races

[@chbrosz]

Re: the American riders not going to gravel worlds: I read that it’s also largely the issue of UCI seeding. You mentioned that if you’re not at the front, it’s almost impossible to get a result. And to have enough UCI points to get a result, you have to pretty much bail on the Lifetime races and instead race UCI gravel races. Brennan Wertz did this to try and get enough UCI points for a half-decent seeding. But sponsors and prize money are better in the Lifetime series. One thing that I do think you should discuss (cause it can prob be a nice chat) is National team vs trade team allegiance. In the gravel world champs, Belgian riders on Alpecin were riding more against their countryman Jasper Stuyven and instead for MVDP, their pro team boss. No race radios, no DS screaming instructions, it’s the Wild West out there it seems.

[@BobMcJoe99]

Kopecky said in an interview she could hear Vos changing her tire pressure during the race. I think this was in a cycling news article somewhere

[@livingstonest]

Went from mountain biking to madone sl7 gen 8. Found it very comfortable and im 90kg riding 90psi on 28mm. Find it so good that its really gotten me into the sport.

[@mustridefaster]

Boys, the reason that the US Gravel riders didn't go doesn't have a lot to do with USA Cycling or funding. It is primarily a timing issue and that the premier gravel races in the USA are not UCI events and the UCI scheduled the World Championships in a way that conflicted with two of the Lifetime Grand Prix events. Riders would have to skip one or both events to travel, recon, and acclimate for the World Championships. Pair that with the fact that the LTGP races tend to be much longer and technical (in the sense of how "gravely" the courses are, ranging from dirt to flint rock to actual MTB trail) compared to the relatively short and "mild" gravel that favors world tour racers, and it isn't surprising that the top US talent skipped. The reality is that Unbound is the de facto Gravel world championship (or maybe Leadville) and the big name world tour riders haven't fared particularly well there because it is "gravely" enough to take them outside their comfort zones. The sponsors of the US Gravel riders base their support almost exclusively on LTGP results; that is their market and their visibility, not a novelty "gravel" race in Europe by the UCI. It is widely known that the US gravel scene has intentionally tried to maintain distance from the UCI as the UCI is not well regarded in the US and the "spirit of gravel" was always to resist the overreach and bureaucracy of the UCI. I think there is a widespread sentiment that gravel is better without the UCI interfering or trying to assume control of anything that looks like a bike race. In return, I think there is an effort by the UCI to delegitimize any racing that they don't control, so they create "gravel" events designed to highlight world tour riders as a novelty rather than to try to build the sport of gravel racing on its own merits and with its own riders.

[@marcvb3364]

Also don't forget that there are no doping controls at the life time grand prix.

[@davidlilja9180]

The USA's competition with the UCI is also reflected in the various mindsets that still leave trump in contention next month. Many think such things are about freedoms, but it's really about just living under homegrown rules, capitalist/marketing hype and the ever-growing city vs rural divide. It's similar down here in Oz, really. Hanson or Lambie anyone? The N+1 bicycle rule just adds the need for more bikes inside one's stable. Track, triathlon, TT, road/endurance, gravel & mtb if ya have a need to follow the Jones's. American drivers used to open their doors to stop bike lane splitting, so city roads were never safe, back in the day. Auto industry might anyone? Now we have Sram/Trek/Specialized all trying to please their shareholders and always move more product. "You must have this new, latest thing, or what will your friends really be thinking about you; you can't keep up? ...and we spent so much on development & testing, it just, must be better?"

[@justwastingtimeaway]

I suspect the UCI is not well regarded outside of the US either!

[@roadcyclist1]

The US gravel riders would have been destroyed on the UCI course. They would have embarrassed themselves. That is another major reason they didn't go. Also, uci world gravel championship is far far far more prestigious than the circus side show that is Leadville and unbound.

[@davidlilja9180]

@@justwastingtimeaway Perhaps no less than any other sport's governing bodies. They attempt to set rules to make their competitor's battles to win, fairer. Men, and nowadays women too, will battle to win to place their name into history's pages and take the prize money whilst risking their lives to do. That 'fog of competition' thing. As I watch "A Few Dollars More", it's reasonably clear that rules in society have always been needed, or else! Just try riding or driving on the 'wrong' side of the road! We, ourselves, usually suggest that rules aren't needed for us, we'll play fair; that is, until we come second and start thinking of ways we could finish first. Think of the never-ending FIA battles with F1 teams, especially with regard to driver safety, over the last 30yrs. Tomorrow there will be weather, and likely more deaths in sport, too. I hate being reminded of the 3 times my bones have been broken, laying on the road or through a car window, from my bike. Oops. For 7 years in a row, the world watched a sporting superstar strut across the stages of France. The UCI is said to have turned a blind-eye to what was causing those performances, they enjoyed the new audience income and increased size of their influence, until ... I want Tadej to be a clean GOAT, not another 'Texan' replicant. Gravel is in many ways our newest cycling wild west. No doping control there, yet. I'd rather lose fairly than win by cheating, myself; same goes for any sport I spend time spectating, too. But, each to their own, I guess. The more money and prestige that's involved, the more likely the temptation will be, for some, to find and use ANY advantage.

[@Gufolicious]

I have toe overlap on every roadbike including my sl8 (54) despite having small feet (41,5) and short cranks (165). And its huge overlap not a little bit.

[@crispyrad]

Tadej is not the only rider winning races on the Colnago V4RS. It sounded like Jesse was suggesting it's not a fast bike which is crazy.

[@huwsalway4099]

It is a fast bike no doubt about that

[@adamcurpier]

Great stuff! Yes, regarding the gravel race, very exciting to watch. With that said, agree, it looked like more of a Classics race. Still a step in the right direction for the next UCI WC Gravels.

[@michaelnewman4302]

Posting from Kansas and can confirm Jesse's assertion. That was EXACTLY the reaction.

[@thomasparkins6749]

I've had toe overlap on every road bike I've used. I guess it just has to do with shoe size/cleat position. The only time it's a problem is turning very tight corners very slowly, so on 99% of rides, it's not an issue. It does look extreme on the video though.

[@thangarajmj5814]

Toe overlap is very common on small frame sizes.

[@thomasparkins6749]

@@thangarajmj5814 My bikes are 56, using 172.5mm cranks and size 11 uk (EU46/47) shoes.

[@thomasparkins6749]

@@thangarajmj5814 Mine are 56 so a reasonably big frame

[@starlitshadows]

Yeah it happens on my 10 yr old Cannondale. The only time it's an issue is very tight turns at slow speed. Pretty much the only time that occurs for me is exiting a local bike path where I have to almost come to a stop and do a 180 onto a narrow path with rocks and dirt. I figured out how to time it. So it would only matter really if I took it off road on tight single track switchbacks. Not applicable for any normal road conditions. And I'm on a 56 and it's too big for me.

[@paolofranks6742]

Riding a Madone SLR7 gen 8 for a few weeks now. Size 43 shoes and on an ML frame - haven’t had a toe overlap issue thus far… Interesting points re comfort. I personally haven’t ridden something as comfy as this new Madone but my repertoire of bikes is quite limited

[@hansraven8378]

Have both. New one is more comfortable and ridden Lots of bikes. Old one feels faster, bar is better but less stiff. Maybe the stiffer bar is the element

[@neilfox9540]

Feels like Chris & Jesse have an agenda on the new Madone. I'm not even convinced Chris has really ridden it.

[@ambulowan]

Not only is it ridiculous and delusional to think of a bike as Italian, German, or American when the frame is made in Asia. But thinking of a bike as a brand is even more absurd when all the brand does is design the frame. The designs are restricted by UCI rules, the same brands produce in the same factories, with everyone essentially copying each other. The first thing cyclists recommend upgrading on a "cheap bike" is the wheels, and rightfully so. You can feel the difference-the bike rides better and is more fun. The influence of the wheels on the ride can be greater than that of the frame, yet no one thinks to associate their bike's branding with the wheels, even though it makes as much, if not more, sense to call your bike after the wheels. It's a Zipp, DT Swiss, Enve bike, and so on. Even the gear makes sense. It's just Fashion really.

[@Dannytraining]

Nero show blasting Trek, what else is new!! As you can read in the comment the toe overlap depend on individual, fitting, not a single person have the same body..

[@ivanabele4225]

The good thing about all other things being equal in the rim vs disk comparison, is that it allows us to conclude that if manufacturers still made modern bikes with rim brakes, with wide tyres, aero tubes, etc, then those bikes would be faster than the current modern bikes with disk brakes.

[@lasrachtech.1341]

Exactly

[@CamNicholls]

Testify brother! But happy to do Jesse + Chris's test with a Teammachine R. #longlivetherim

[@jiahuacai8278]

I dunno but maybe I’m just not as wealthy as you guys. The thing that rim brake worries me is overheating and the abrasion of the carbon. In the end no matter what pad you use it is rubbing against the materials on your wheels, which will wear out some day. Then someday I’d have to change a new wheel which is just way more expensive than the changing pads and rotors…

[@departurexx1520]

@@jiahuacai8278 What your weights? If your weights are less than 75kg than you can rest assured with the carbon wheels on rim brake. Many keep saying that disc are more safe during descending, but just right in front of my eyes a disc brake lock up while heading to a corner and crash to a divider, the rider flip to the drain. Thank god the rider are ok, but the 2 carbon wheelsets gone. Are disc is safer?

[@jiahuacai8278]

@@departurexx1520 I myself is 70-73kgs depending on how much I ate but that was not the point…as I said, braking are essentially abrasion between two materials, and one material is the your rim in this case (and that also creates a lot of heat which could be bad for carbon). It’s just physics. I’m more concerned about my 1-2K dollars wheels will be eventually wear through and I have to buy another set whereas for disc I could just replace pad and rotors. Whether it’s “safe” or not, I think that’s more of a skill issue with either options.

[@crispyrad]

Chris, I rode with you last week and we chatted briefly after the ride about my rim brake Cervelo. I rode some Spanish roads this year on a rented BMC and was glad to have the disc brakes on those descents. But our roads just aren't like that so for the rides we do around Noosa and the Sunshine Coast, disc brakes really aren't all that necessary. I do have a disc brake gravel bike but the only reason for me to move to disc on the road is the option for wider tyres. Also; Larry MF Lactate is the current Oceania road race champion

[@HarishChouhan]

I've had toe overlap issues on my old Trek ALR. Size 56 was big with little toe overlap and size 54 that fit me, well I would end up kicking the front wheel when turning in slow traffic. I have US size 12 shoes but average height of 177cms. After I switched to 165mm cranks few years back, it made things better.

[@stevebassett8944]

I have toe overlap on a new (2024) Trek Emonda ALR. I'm glad I am aware of this, it hasn't been a problem. And I do really like this bike

[@HarishChouhan]

@@stevebassett8944 Yup, I have got used to it now. Jealous of your 2024 EMonda ALR. I don't mind the cables being out near the handlebar, but would have loved the cables being inside the chainstay.

[@kevin-joelcoupland5106]

The Basso is still constructed in Italy

[@cookydsn]

You can only understand a Basso if you ride a Basso ❤

[@yendoradon7836]

My Winspace SLC “Designed in Italy” on the top tube , and handles excellent.

[@ColinSmith2001]

For Cam's tests, with the same tyres, the only differences it should be pulling out are CDA and Weight. If the crit times are equal the CDA is equal. If the climb time is faster on rim brake, it is lighter. If the decent times are equal then both of the above can't be true - the lighter weight of the rim brake bike needs a lower CDA to compensate for less gravity assist on the descent. The starting point has to be just that the test results show up problems with the accuracy of the tests - The test setup should only be finding CDA and weight variables, and the results show that isn't the case.

[@TurnLeftNow]

replaced my 2020 s-works with a 2020 Look 785 Huez RS, and they're in complete different leagues. the latter is significantly smoother, with far better power transfer, rock solid front end and far better handling. It never seems to lose composure, even if you hit a pothole leaning at 50kph. I think they're now made in Tunisia, but the layup and carbon is all proprietary, internally developed.

[@buckcram5908]

I love my 785 Huez. Right now, you find crazy deals on the last gen frame.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

As an aficionado of all things Italian - beauty and passion prevail ! My Wilier Zero SLR …. a tad heavier than the SL8 …. but there is no contest in my deluded mind ! I’ve replaced my Crit bike …. (Was a Colnago C60 😂😂) with the Bianchi Oltre Pro - an aero beauty ….. and in shock news… my revelation “bike review” scoop …. is that it’s faster than the C60 - and handles better.. .. The details as to the performance benefits of others matter not . It’s the same for Ferrari v Porsche, Maclaren or Audi … there is only one to buy with the heart (pre electric that is). Love your reviews - always brings me back to the realities of my purchase decisions - very grounding 💯✊ from MAMIL Supreme

[@johncoates6039]

The surly midnight special I had also had this problem….it also had a 40mm rake fork. And that was with 650b wheels and 47mm wide tires. More rake less toe over lap…also a more slack headtube angle will move that front toe away from your toes. Trek has also run longer chain stays (about 41 to 41.1) then other companies. Typical chain stay length for rim brake bikes for decades was 40.5….i had a 2008 cervelo R3 with 39.5 chainstays and it was a rocket on climbs and sprints…but the rear wheel would leave the ground on the smallest bumps

[@happydays8171]

I have a 2011 Madone, and parked it (60 cm frame size 48 shoe), because toes hit the front tire. Bought Scott Foil 61 cm frame, no toe tap. Now 61 cm SL-8 and no toe tap with 177.5 crank.

[@russellgould9230]

I ride a 2021 Trek Emonda (54) without running into a major toe overlap issue. My size 47 feet did run into an overlap issue when trying a Specialized Roubaix. Zero issues with my Felt Breed gravel ride.

[@sb1556]

Oh crap, crazy to see where I grew up shown lol. Bicycle station is based in Jeffersonville Indiana across from Louisville Kentucky

[@dh7314]

If you’re getting toe overlap when riding in every day circumstances I’d be amazed. How is that even possible to be steering that tight unless you’re at walking pace or track standing

[@fredalbrecht5248]

I have a trek slr 7 gen 8. I’ve ridden it for 2 weeks. It is uncomfortable (I’m trying to mitigate with different bibs and saddles). When you turn relatively sharply , usually at low speed, my toes do hit. It’s very stiff and stable under acceleration. So the reviews are legit.

[@timwolf2215]

I think berry/KV area is such a good testing ground because of the different surface qualities on each different climb/descent. And so many options to test on with gradients aswell. Also pies rewards options are great aswell

[@cprefstyles8086]

I have the new Madone Gen 8 and after seeing Trey’s video the first thing I did was check the toe overlap (no issue here and I keep my cleats back). I was on a Gen 6 Madone (size 54) and I went with the Medium in the Gen 8. I’m surprised when people call the bike harsh as it’s way way more comfy than my old Madone. I did put a longer stem on it and the longer seatpost. If it’s harsh I can’t imagine how comfy other bikes are

[@jannispohlmann]

On toe overlap: I have it on almost all bikes, from smaller frames to frames that are too large. Never a problem riding, only notice it when pausing at junctions. On Italian bikes: I had a magical experience on a rented Pinarello Dogma F10 with Campagnolo Bora (Ultra?) WTO wheels a few years back. Bought a used F10 later but it turned out to be uninspiring, couldn't replicate the feeling. It must've been the handlebars/wheels/tires. Love Basso, the Diamante SV is one of those bikes that make you want to take detour after detour to extend the ride further and never stop riding. But... is it technically or from a comfort perspective any better than other high-end carbon bikes (Italian or not)? I haven't noticed. (With the Diamante SV from 2021 it was the handlebars that I loved more than anything.)

[@tommyfreckmann6857]

I totally diasgree with the V4RS being as slow as you guys think. As you viewed in cyclingnews bike test, bikes were all in the margin of error. In Tour Magazin, the SL8 is roughly 10 watts faster than the V4. Tadej rides with a very aero profiled Enve handlebar and I bet that would close the gap of approx 4-5 watts alone. In reality, 5-8 watts is not going to make or break it for him. That is approx a tenth of a MPH faster.

[@fergusmaclean3186]

Not sure what the consensus is, but if you think Pogi is riding a Colnago ("5-8 watts is not going to make or break it for him") out of choice rather than sponsorship then you're drinking some serious Colnag-Kool Aid.

[@tommyfreckmann6857]

@fergusmaclean3186 huh?? Of course he is riding sponsored equipment. But, the reality is hardly a marginal difference from most aero to non aero in the pro peleton. And one rider can be more or less aero than another on same bike.

[@huwsalway4099]

It may not be the fastest but there are other factors in a frame that matter including climbing stiffness and stiffness at speed in a high gear that goes to combine with the aerodynamics. You can have a very fast frame in outright aerodynamics but if it doesn’t respond it’s not going to matter. Believe me if Pogi wasn’t happy, Colnago would be working very hard to make him happy

[@joshbilski8183]

Watching that review from bike station made no sense to me. I went from an SL emonda (54CM) to an SL Madone (Medium) with no issues with the bike fit. Keeping my bars, wheels and fit identical between the Emonda and the Madone, the Madone doesn’t feel any faster but the rear end is significantly MORE compliant. Toe overlap between both bike is the same (only slight) and has never bothered me. Both bikes weigh the same too. Fun fact, at the SL 7 price point (ultegra di2 + carbon everything) , the Gen 8 madone is $2000 cheaper then the Gen 7 madone.

[@ibrahimsultanigy2792]

The 3t Itália range are some beautiful bikes.. not sure if they’re limited runs though. I’d do a strada Itália with super record eps 12 speed v4- can be found discounted around the price of dura ace. That’d be a kickass bike

[@FromDreamsToRacing]

About the Madone - I have had toe overlap with every bike as well but now owning Gen 8 SL7 Madone and having ridden it everywhere including gravel and pump tracks etc. I have never so far had problem that my toe gets caught. I think it is Skill issue there or just massive shoe size and far back cleats (and mine are far from forward as well) I have to say i love new Madone. Took some time to learn to appreciate it but it does everything and very good. These guys make good videos and i loved their review but toe issue they brought out is not really that big : )

[@jesselangevin7786]

Trek fan boy here. First, the toe overlap is a thing on my Emonda (to the same amount as the video) and Crockett (to a lesser degree). Never an issue climbing or when properly riding. However, I don’t do crits and would only have an issue on tight cycle path turnarounds where I’m not peddling anyway. Second, you sell your buddies on the old Emonda or Madone if still in stock anywhere since they’re on sale. If I’m going to sell them on the new Madone, it’s the warranty and Bontrager wheels that are never talked about to the same degree as other manufacturers. Parts availability and, in my opinion, better local dealers are also a big selling feature for me. If you like to work on your own bikes, I feel like Trek leads the way with available service manuals, available brand parts, and T47 BBs. But at the end of the day, everyone is a fan boy of their brand and will ride what they want making excuses for inferior products. Trek reducing their SKUs will hurt their development presently but might save the company so they can compete in the future.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Interesting comment mate, thanks for that.

[@Janthonyx]

Trek is for mountainbiking lol

[@justsomedude7556]

I know someone with the 40 P Zero Race and he loves them. Rides them on the road only except for 1 small little track maybe 5K\3 miles long.

[@swimmc7]

Nice job guys. For Rim Brake vs Disc Test - a loop course with a decent steep climb, AND a decent down the same climb with braking challenges, as well as flat section would be good for overall test to compare rim brake vs disc. Disc brake with wider tires may be less aero and heavy, but much greater confidence and comfort for descending. Results will likely be close to a draw. As Chris says "A nuthin' burger"

[@chriscarrydice6557]

I had this on a peugeot 26inche wheel frame. I converted it into a single speed 700c 25m tyres. And then I changed the wheels on a univaga 550 to 700c. Had the same issue on both of them. I changed the fork two one that had a bend that gave me some clearance. But very close like the wheels in the frames

[@TheWoogeroo]

As far as I remember, all Treks have an oddly short front centre, way less reach than other race bikes, but come with handlebars that have multiple centimeters more reach than any common compact bar.

[@anja0404]

I have toe overlap on my Bianchi, I just assumed everyone did 😮 It's very annoying, but I've learnt to work around it, with my pedaling technique and turning etc

[@joekawasaki]

On the Madone toe overlap. I've had a 2010 in 56 & a 2013 in 54 & both had toe overlap to deal with. The 56 wasn't as bad but it was there. It wasn't as bad as he's showing though. The Cipollini website says they're made by Italians in Bosnia. With Cam's testing the "full cool aid" build & less than perfect roads that most of us ride on!

[@bebopman5]

I’ve had toe overlap on both my Gen 6 and Gen 7 madones (both 58cm, which is a Large in the new sizing). It’s just a fact of life with these Trek race bikes. I wonder for the Gen 8, if you could correct the toe overlap action with a Domane RSL fork? It would change some of the handling dynamics, but the fork offset might be just enough to give the free range for turning on those corners. Just a thought, shouldn’t be on the consumer to correct these issues tho.

[@mrwezbo]

Confirmed huge toe overlap with Trek Domane

[@markwoolford2342]

Likewise, the only bike I've ever had toe overlap on was an Emonda SLR9, that was a 54 and running 165mm cranks. Maybe it's a Trek thing.

[@SKYBJERN]

I have new madone Slr and it’s more comfortable ride feel than my previous Emonda SL.

[@RylHango]

No doubt it is far more comfortable than the last gen Emonda, but if you used the crappy stock Bontrager Aeolus wheels on the Emonda that’s what you get, the new RSL one is 23mm internal and lighter

[@joshzipprich]

I’m the same; riding the new Madone SLR and had the Edmonds SL - The bike is great; fast comfortable, I believe the review ran into issues because he was running a size large when probably should have been on the ML

[@dhodges1911]

I'm a bit of a Trek fanboy, but I'm passing on the Gen 8 Madone and keeping my Gen 7.

[@gymfreikk]

I bought the top level Domane when it came out years ago. I love it as an endurance bike and still love it today. That being said, the new bikes have changed a lot. I think the engineering is superior, but I don’t really like what they are coming out with right now. Not even the new Domane. So if I get a new bike, I might look at a Pinarello. Plus the bike shops around here used to be like a true bike shop, now they are more like retail centers. I respect the business model but the change is making me look around. That’s my opinion based on your pod today on this. Great engineers, but business is getting in the way of the sport for their brand, in my opinion. But I love my original P1 Domane.

[@UltimateTuner10]

Gen 7 size 56, 172.5 cranks and while I do get some overlap it’s not nearly as bad as the Gen 8 as Trey showed. I’m a huge fanboy and have pushed any friends in the market to find leftover Gen 7 and skip the Gen 8

[@andrewbennett3804]

Same totally agree 👍

[@AdamGross-j6d]

Merida make Specialized bikes. They own 50% of the company. And since they own their own factory (like Giant) it seems likely that they do allow for more intensive construction/manufacturing and QC processes.

[@RestlessGambler14]

Had toe over lap on all my Trek bike using a 170 crank arm length. Eventually switched to 165 when I got my tarmac and no issue with toe overlap.

[@andreroodt4647]

Could be the head tube angle causing the toe overlap. I ride a relatively old Colnago, but for the same reach measurement as a Madone, my bike has a 72.5 head angle and the Trek a 73.5. The Fork rake on the Madone is also ridiculously low at 40mm, contributing to the overlap issues.

[@vincefava7929]

Been riding my Colnago C60 rim since 2017, sublime handling and light. Have not ridden a newer bike (Trek, Spec etc..) that makes me want to change. So many great bikes out there whose performances, for the average punter, are basically negligible. So buy what makes you happy when you go out.

[@Fatbutnotflat]

Toe overlap on roadbikes here on asia (with generally smaller sizes, 52 is the most common size) is very, very normal and accepted. The thing is at sizes like 52, people should be using 150-160mm cranks. That will help a ton.

[@DarynRod]

I have had overlap on both my road bikes. Even on 170 cranks. My SL8 size 54 with my size 42 shoes rubs. It's not been an issue for me... my Pinarello was the same.

[@andrewverdon9718]

JC telling me "nice bike!" while on my Madone in CP on wed evening now has a whole new slant on it!

[@htukmumfie]

i think the general argument in terms of racing (rim vs disk) is that often there is a summit finish and the rim will win when every second counts. (the disc may be faster on tbe rest of the course, but it wont effect the outcome with drafting etc)

[@sr8ted]

I’ve been struggling to build my 3T Racemax Italia due to numerous issues with the packaging and shipping. The seatpost doesn’t fit, the steer tube was incorrectly built, and there was no DI2 battery adapter or appropriate brake bolts included-Shimano and SRAM bolts are too small for the frame. After four months, I still haven’t managed to assemble it, and even the bike mechanics are having trouble. I can’t believe there were no instructions included. Coming from Specialized, I’ve noticed they have a much more streamlined system, and I don’t mind paying a premium for that quality.

[@theotheroneb1548]

About the toe overlap, I literally measured the madone in this shop... it is identical between the sl 8 54cm and madone M. Unless my tape measure is way off, idk what they mean. The front center is the same within a couple millimeters.

[@user-cx2bk6pm2f]

That's exactly why I didn't buy a Madone... questionable seat height adjustment. Compounding the problem is that the website offers no clarity on how much adjustment is present (or not).

[@SpaceWorxRide]

Perhaps the new Madone is not just an updated model but a new (more competitive) contract with a different OEM for Trek. That would possibly explain the harsh handling and off geometry. An updated (more refined) frame with the original OEM should not have these issues.

[@peterm.7497]

I watched the Gravel Worlds last 15km on KZbin -- so proud of myself.

[@GMAN9602]

Never buy a Cipollini, I was racing with the Bond for 2 years and the RB1K for 1 year. The Bond was just uncomfortably stiff for me, my hands, wrists and ass were hurting a lot. The RB1K was a pure race bike, actually I liked but the steerer tube broke for 3 of us in the team meanwhile riding and 2 of us injured seriously. This year we changed to Wilier, it's just slow and heavy but more reliable and comfortable😅 My benchmark, my own bike is a Cervelo S5, it's the best I've ever ridden.

[@michaelmorrison9067]

1:14 The Bicycle Station, Indiana

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

🤙🏼

[@casper5204]

Kopecy told the belgian press she could hear the tyre pressure changing thing every change of surface. She added she finds it funny and told the best competiter has won fairly

[@johncoates6039]

I’d like to see cam and 4 of his ride mates perform a group test…same loop like Chris suggests. 1 loop every one on rim brake bikes..1 min pulls each at what ever watts….then again with disc brake aero full kool aid bike…run them twice each…then were isolating actual performance. Because we’ll all want the performance in a bunch.and we don’t always have the same wheel to hold.

[@alainpfammatter8224]

One thing Trek does better with their Madone than most other brands is the paintjob. You get lots of nice colors to choose.

[@ragethomas]

I'm a trek fan boy. I own a Madone Gen 7, and it's super comfortable and handles great. All treks have had toe overlap, but the Gen 8 appears to be really bad. The Madone-Gen 7 is way comfier than my SL7 tarmac. I test rode the Gen 8, before buying my SL7, for crit racing and ended up with sl7. The Gen 7 is a better bike it pretty much every way to gen8. Plus it looks so much better

[@tarmaccio]

I‘m having toe gate as well on my SL8 when doing sharp turns. Almost yeeted myself on the first ride out, you really have to pay attention to your foot position when doing these turns 😂 And I’m riding 58 with 165mm cranks with S-works Torch in EU size 46

[@jeffreypeters1902]

Toe overlap was definitely a thing in the 80s, too. A twitchy crit bike with short top tube and steep head tube angle would always overlap. Gios compacts were notorious if memory serves.

[@bensonburnsaus]

"Bike Path World Championships" is cycling podcastings line of the year.

[@maxsievers8251]

The Rene Herse cantilever and the centerpull brake can fit up to 56 mm tyres. So there is no need to change to disc brakes on a road bike.

[@marcvb3364]

Correct. Also all MTBs used to be rim brake, the reason the industry changed to disc was never to enable wider tires.

[@Jpearse1]

Cantilever brakes are some of the worst I’ve ever ridden, I couldn’t imagine using them on a carbon rim on a 70kmh descent 😱

[@maxsievers8251]

@@Jpearse1 I'm sure you haven't experienced the Rene Herse or Paul Components cantilever brakes. They work fine.

[@Keksator]

new trek will always be a Madonda for me