Does SC1 NEED a Balance Patch?

Artosis shares his ideas for a fair patch to SC: Brood War.
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[@hypers829]

Remove all mineral lines except first and second base. Artosis winrate 90%

[@mikeuuuytffvghjjoopoiytf]

The enemy would just take Artosis's expansion for his 3rd to secure the win condition

[@VenomousStare]

He still dies to defilers

[@adeedoor89]

I never seen him take a 3rd

[@Hatchumosc1]

@@VenomousStare Two gas defiler very tough. Especially when talking about finishing off a Terran.

[@TheProgramer64]

I wish map fog of war worked like SC2. That way new players who aren’t familiar with a map’s layout could see it on the map. This is a change that helps new players without affecting seasoned players or the pro scene.

[@mixalis295]

As a person that would love to play broodwar a bit more competetively, the game is really hostile towards new players (talking about trying to climb mmr, not learning the game in general), fog of war is not even a top 10 issue, I just enjoy some arty and ASL amd get my fix that way, new players really need to be hardcore to commit to grinding.

[@LorenzKamo]

That would be nice

[@mikeuuuytffvghjjoopoiytf]

Considering that the maps are set in stone it makes no sense to have it completely blocked out, for example in aoe4 it makes sense because the map is randomly generated each time so scouting is important

[@billiondollardong]

suck it up quit crying don't change something that is cool and hardcore

[@MMarcuzzo]

Yes

[@blankempty5128]

Gateways should have an animation to indicate units in production and zerg buildings should have animations for research as well

[@YelenaSgt44]

...why? Terran doesnt show that stuff either.

[@painting]

@@YelenaSgt44 they do.

[@abstractdaddy1384]

Agreed! Every building should have an animation that shows something is happening there. Either that or nothing. There's no reason some of them should be like that and others not. It just creates weird imbalances.

[@Appletank8]

@@YelenaSgt44 Academy and Engineering bay have flashing bits. Armory has a disc that spins. Machine Shop spins gears. Forge and Cyber Core has a spiny bit. Zerg just pulse. all the time.

[@vladimirgregor]

@@abstractdaddy1384 - I believe that Protoss gateways used to blink in the past, when there was a unit in production. Then they removed it.

[@thefakerking51]

My favorite thing is that everything for Terran was a buff but the other races immediately started getting nerfs lol.

[@bbsonjohn]

Blizzard to Arty: unfortunately, we cannot implement most of your suggestions. Except, the plasma and scout bluff look good, we will put them on the next patch coming next month.

[@dennisrodriguez3689]

Hahahaha.

[@Gengar094]

The defiler is the only thing saving zerg in ZvT so nerfing them without a correspondingly strong buff would ruin the matchup. This is the most terran centric changes, no changes to fix ZvZ, no terran nerfs ...

[@nebelung1]

yeah exactly, while defilers are ridiculous and nobody denies that, it's literally the only thing keeping terran from just bulldozing the zerg every time once they do their late game death push.

[@Okiwano]

I would try to rework Guardian/Defiler. I think it would be okay to nerf defiler if zerg could have a legit threat from the air. 25% splash from guardian damage maybe? It'd need hella fine tuning but it shouldn't be "Well late game zerg is always going to be ground based with Dark Swarm being their saving grace. I would say being able to clear dark swarm could also be fun. Also maybe make EMP have a wider area of effect but taper it in terms of energy drain from the center. Buut if they start changing stuff it'll quickly become way too different. it'd be fun to tinker around with though!

[@meredithwallace5378]

not to mention giving missile turrets twice as much damage against mutalisks

[@dew9103]

I'd prefer defiler and irradiate nerf (maybe irradiate to 100 energy) instead of how it is rn

[@OpiatesAndTits]

Yeah it was really good up to the Zerg changes like. Even marines doing 1 damage under DS would gun down stuff really quick. I don’t know if where watching the same game but it feels like an uphill battle against Terran the entire time with dark swarm just barely holding the defense together. As the science vessel cloud grows it becomes harder and harder to deal with and the high gas cost of scourge while producing defilers and lurkers and ultras it’s just not possible. Even those mech games with mong looked really hard and what’s the answer to queen - EMP on a unit your already fielding a ton of. Protecting those queens from EMP or a group of wraiths can’t be easy. Then you gotta hold on long enough for this huge resource investment to even begin to pay off which requires good micro and timing with the rest of your army. The science vessel just runs around killing targets of opportunity and pays for itself really really fast. The defiler is a problem because the zergs strength is all tied up in that 1 unit. Like Terran can kill infinite lings with bio or tanks or goliaths or vultures + mines. Theres an argument to buff other Zerg units abs nerf the defiler sure. I’d let Zerg make infested terrans if there’s a T on the map as an example or turn them into a spell the queen casts. He’s got all these brilliant changes then when it comes to Zerg “oh well buff this unit that’s impossible to use in a compatible match” thanks Artosis!

[@JoshuaFoy]

I can kind of get behind the swarm Nerf, but without the energy from consume zerg would never be able to survive Terran push with vessels. Irradiation would need a Nerf to compensate. Maybe plus 25 or 50 energy. Edit: If I could have one change...change spore to do AOE against bio, or buff damage against bio. Maybe we could see late game ZVZ for once.

[@rikterandersson3568]

And that is why pro's were so right in not letting blizz touch balance. So many small, razor sharp, timings are in this game. I would only, and only, touch non-used things like ghosts & scouts and never used spells. But changing core things like defiler is just not on the table. A balance discussion would have to be much much more thorough and longer.

[@mixalis295]

@@rikterandersson3568 I do not understand why if they tried something and it did not work just not revert to live version since its been like that for years, we dont have to push a patch permanently

[@magustx]

that's a good idea. Make spores do double damage and concussive. That will do 2x damage vs mutas and scourge but keep normal damage vs everything else

[@rikterandersson3568]

​@@mixalis295 You can see Flash speak out on the situation here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYHKpH1jgq2lec0 We can of course always theorycraft but why the pro's, from all races, actively pressured Blizzard to NOT patch the game (when it was on the table for the remaster) was because they did not have faith that Blizzard would restore the balance if their fixes, in the long run, wouldn't work out.

[@fangedcow12345]

I think Arty's three defiler nerfs are reasonable in that 1 of 2 + the armor change. I agree if you nerf energy and do the range thing, you'd need to make irradiate research time take longer or something else to balance. TvZ favors T so I'd honestly take some T nerfs vs. Z for some buffs vs P.

[@Morokami]

I believe adding options for Zerg to take on Mutalisks would be a great way to diversify the ZvZ matchup. Maybe somehow give Hydralisks extra damage to Mutalisks or Spore Colonies a tiny AoE as a way to counter them so we can actually get games that are more than just Muta vs Muta and end so quickly.

[@Stokkeland23]

Really agree with this. Zerg v Zerg is the worst matchup. There's only 1 viable build. Muta. Excellent point 👍

[@alltheagents]

Yes 100%

[@hiei49]

The change I thought that shouldnt break other matchups is to make Devourer tech free, so you can morph a muta into a devo immediately and zone out your opponent if it goes too much into the offensive. That should make ZvZ a bit slower and thus allow for some queen/hive games. Unless you can add biological bonusses in the patch, i dont see a way to make mutalisks more handeable by buffing hydras or spores and not making hydras too powerfull in ZvP or Spores way too good in general (For example Aoe Spores would be way too good in ZvP defending Corsairs) The Devo buff can be compensated in PvZ by buffing the Scout (i like a +2 range added to the Vision uppgrade, or make them fast by default), and for Terran you can change the size of the Wraith from Large to Medium.

[@Stokkeland23]

@@hiei49 It's still going to be just an air battle then. Only you have less mutas and exchanged them with devourers. It's a very hard matchup to fix without ruining other matchups in the process. I'm struggling to think of anything myself. I think it's got to be spores. They need to better vs biological units somehow.

[@hiei49]

@@Stokkeland23 If you can reach Hive, you can switch to a ground comp of hydra/ling/lurker defiler. The thing is reaching Hive, which should be doable if you can be reasonable well even with 1-2 less mutas and the same number of Devos. Also Hydra Lurker could be a mid game timing with 1-2 Devos support If Spores dealt 60 Concussive damage instead of 15 full damage, they would shred the Mutas and scourge while doing the same damage to every other air unit except Interceptors and Corsairs. Corsairs are a big deal though, and they woudlnt be fixed by changing them to large

[@Vasiliosx2]

Just a thing about scouts, they take WAY too long to build too.

[@7218234]

In all honesty, making scouts/queens/ghosts/infected terrans/guardians/devourers more playable would not be so bad, as these units are very rarely used in the games I've seen.

[@JN-hs5xl]

infested terrans should be removed from multiplayer because they are too specific to a matchup. If anything maybe queen should have an infest ability that e.g. disables the building, but you can deal damage to free the building or something

[@Larsgman]

Guardians I’ve seen used extensively in my time. Basically zerg siege tank in a way

[@dracmeister]

@@Larsgman unfortunately in the current state of the meta, Guardians are too specialized and are expensive and slow. Too much counterplay nullifies its value.

[@andrewzmorris]

Why would those units being usable make the game better? This is a common game design idea I've seen and I don't understand it. People always think that "more" is better, and that doesn't make sense to me. Chess wouldn't be better if you added another 10 pieces. Soccer wouldn't be better if you added more balls in play. You want the right amount, and too much of something is just as bad as too little.

[@hunterclark5345]

@@andrewzmorris it certainly makes it more fun to watch

[@EebstertheGreat]

For reference, 1998-Mar-31 - StarCraft first release 1998-Apr-23 - StarCraft patch 1.01 (bug fixes) 1998-Aug-24 - StarCraft patch 1.02 (bug fixes & first balance patch: hatch 350 → 300 minerals, photon cannons explosive → normal damage, flying units no longer get cover from terrain) 1998-Oct-14 - StarCraft patch 1.03 (bug fixes & new content) 1998-Dec-17 - StarCraft patch 1.04 (first major patch, compatibility with Brood War, lots of new content) 1998-Dec-18 - StarCraft: Brood War first release 1999-May-15 - StarCraft patch 1.05 (major balance patch & bug fixes) 1999-Sep-30 - StarCraft patch 1.06 (major balance patch & bug fixes) 1999-Nov-02 - StarCraft patch 1.07 (Korean tournament support and minor bug fixes) 2001-May-18 - StarCraft patch 1.08 (major balance patch & bug fixes & new content) ... skip a few irrelevant patches ... 2005-Feb-06 - StarCraft patch 1.12 (major ladder change: fast → fastest speed, Korean language support, new features, bug fixes) ... skip some more ... 2017-Mar-26 - StarCraft patch 1.18.0 PTR (confirming Remastered, making the game free, many small changes) 2017-Mar-30 - StarCraft patch 1.18.0 PTRA (last significant balance change: valkyries now fire as intended) ... skip some more ... 2022-Sep-07 - StarCraft patch 1.23.10 (most recent patch released, updating the ladder map pool. So apart from map changes and minor bug fixes, the last chat with any significant balance implications was patch 1.18.0 PTRA in 2017. If we exclude that patch, since its balance implications were the incidental result of fixing a bug, then the last deliberate balnace patch was in May of 2001. There were 26 separate balance changes. Some notable ones were increasing valkyrie damage from 5 to 6 (among other buffs), increasing the carrier supply cost from 4 to 6, slightly buffing zealot defense (80 hp/80 shields to 100 hp/60 shields), and by far most importantly, increasing the cost of the spawning pool from 150 to 200 minerals. TL;DR: Except for Remastered, the last big balance change was in spring of 2001.

[@JohnDobak]

bring back the old psy-storm duration.

[@Sc9cvsd]

Few things missing: vulture nerf. Vulture is most op unit in the game and needs nerf ZvT is always dealing with a terran bio bust. Muta harass holds it off and dark swarm holds it off. Nerf those and every TvZ player just goes SK Terran and wins with push. If you nerf muta (directly or by proxy by buffing turrets) or dark swarm you need to nerf terran too

[@linkernick5379]

Arty is just Terran-biased

[@THAC0MANIC]

lolz bullshit, I mean i like terran music and such when i play random but get so much better win % as anything but Terran unless its TvT, its better then my ZvZ and such.

[@augustday9483]

Here's a crazy idea I was thinking about. What if scouts had detection like observers? Keep the cost and everything else the same. I wonder if that would make them viable as an alternative to the observer that is more expensive but doesn't die instantly in a fight.

[@patrickjack8101]

I think that was their original purpose, considering they have a sight range upgrade

[@HasekuraIsuna]

Having a unit that can fight both ground and air, and is also an detector is not a good idea. Look at how big of a thing Observer sniping is, and imagine the Observer is even faster, more health and can fight back. If they should get detection it would need to be an activated ability that drains Energy, but I still think it would be a bad idea.

[@johnismynameful]

The consume rework seems bad. Yeah the Zerg player will have already made defilers, but irradiate is already pretty good vs them. Throw in whatever buff you are giving EMP (unless you just make recall not have the cast point) and Zerg is looking rough. Terran typically has map control in this matchup. Drop ships + irradiate and you’re just not getting enough out of your defilers. None of the matchups are worse than 60-40. If you start needing zergs best unit into oblivion, we would see it. If you must nerf defilers, a buff to science vessels makes more sense. The attrition aspect of ZvT is neat. A science vessel buff would make more sense. I don’t eat nearly as much Terran salt as you though. TvP is really bad on some maps like fighting spirit, but that’s mostly blatantly bad map design. Or bad placement of ledges for things like missile turrets vs mutalisk.

[@tuoljg]

Funny how artosis would actually destroy TvZ balance completely with his balance patch making terran just super favored

[@linkernick5379]

Don't you enjoy TvTs all the way to the finals?

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

Changing the Turret damage type is too extreme I think. It would result in Mutas being killed in 6 less shots (6 instead of 12) and Interceptors in 2 less shots (4 instead of 6). If you want to tweak it, just increase its damage by 4, which would allow for 1 less shot needed to kill a Muta (11 istead of 12), 1 less shot to kill and Interceptor (5 instead of 6), and about 3-4 less shots to kill an Arbiter (15-16 instead of 18-19). Keep the cost the same. Voila, now you have a lot better defense with the meta not being broken and I think it would remain fairly balanced. I disagree with the EMP vs Stasis debate. Stasis is not instantaneous, Arbiter actually waits for a considerable amount of time before casting the spell. If both players command their units at the same time, the EMP missile will fly, but the Vessel will be Stasis'd before the EMP hits the Arbiter. As for Recall, I'm not sure how to address it. Honestly simply buffing the Turret damage by 4 would also address this as well, now the Arbiters would have a tougher time to "JUST FLY OVER EVERYTHING". Assimilator Shield nerf is acceptable, but 150 is too much imo. I'm fine with Nexus and Assimilator sight nerf, but Probe nerf is unnecessary. If you don't want Probes to be building cannons in your base, hold your ramp. As for Scouts, I don't think it's a cost issue, I think it's a niche issue. Scouts doesn't do anything special, it's just a flying Dragoon. It should have some sort of utility to have any use in the game, otherwise it will continue to be useless, considering in every matchup the meta for the opponent already automatically counters Scout (Hydras for Zerg, Goons for Toss, Gols for Terran). I would fiddle around with it's sight range, maybe have that upgrade inherent to the unit from the get go, and maybe give it an ability or something, I don't know. I can jive with Consume rework into regen instead of instant recovery, but the numbers are way too low, also you're losing the ability to Consume multiple units for a large boost, which is the main point of the Zerg race. If multiple instances of Consume regen are allowed to stack, I can agree. Dark Swarm change is unacceptable, it would break Zerg completely. If you want to nerf DS, make it so that the shots miss something like 90% of the time instead of 100%. Even that is too much I think. +2 Armor to Zealot in the late game would probably break PvT, while not addressing the issues Protoss is having against Zergs in PvZ, since when Plagued, those +2 armor Zealots will die in 1 hit after their Shields are gone anyway. I guess a reasonable suggestion could be reworking the Shield upgrade, though I'm not sure how to work that in. Maybe the -100/-100 already is enough, or maybe change the functionality of the Shields, or something like that. I'm ok with every other proposed change, I don't think they would affect the game negatively.

[@Sc9cvsd]

I'm ok doubling turret damage by changing type but need to probably more than double cost. 175 or 200 minerals. That is fair especially to his point. Some spots on certain maps are just known to be terran fucked spots. Natural can't get enough turrets in enough spots to defend the natural and muta harass is just unfair. Making 3 strong turrets that cost way more but can actually deal with it like normally turrets can is fair.

[@Sc9cvsd]

Scouts is a relative value problem. They just aren't as good anti air as corsair vs air that is actually used vs P and aren't as good vs ground as carriers. Protoss air is already strong: get critical mass of corsair and zerg just gives up on muta.. get critical mass of carriers and terran has very hard time dealing with it. Only way people build scouts is because they are better than sair or carriers or they compliment them. Getting a fleet of sair to clear any zerg anti air and cheap scouts with them to kill ground just seems so OP

[@michaelcallisto]

This is too reasonable for a KZbin comment

[@seraphimconcordant]

@@Sc9cvsd Artosis' changes for the scout are misunderstood by you and the other guy. For one, the scout can be built before the fleet beacon, so it should be seen earlier than carriers, and two, it can shoot ground unlike sair. By decreasing the price slightly you can actually make the scout now as an opener, as it doesn't simply set you behind. I have seen it used to effectiveness, it would still he niche but by lowering the price, it now only needs to kill say two workers to be theoretically worth the res rather than three, which is impossible. It also allows for potentially double scout, which would be even better. It still does not scale but that's fine as it can just be as a harasser unit. This will help against hydra busts as the first sair doesn't do anything but a scout can shift between multiple bases whereas the sair would only have one spot where the overlords are at usually, thus dividing attention and hydras.

[@bayasgalantsogtgerel3346]

@@Sc9cvsd making the price of turrets 175 and giving them double the damage is just a plain nerf. I would rather have 2 turrets for 150 with their current state so that at least they can buy me time to have some marines run over there instead of having a 175 structure getting 2 shotted by 8 muta’s after only getting 3 hits.

[@hasudrone2]

correct if im wrong - ZvT doenst favor zerg as far as win rates in competitive play so if both both early and late game ZvT are nerfed (much better terran turrents and weaker defilers) thats going to make ZVT unplayable. yes defilers and mutas are op, but zerg needs them vs terran. just like how irradiate is op but terran needs it vs zerg. if both mutas and defilers are nerfed, then irradiate should get a nerf too. like 75->100 energy or something i mean theres a reason that the outcome of TvZ past mid game is purely decided on the vessel count. there is no zerg counter play to vessels other than out expanding and replacing units that they lose for free after all SC1 is op units countering op units.

[@kristoferjhess]

I would say that zerg late with ultra-ling-defiler is better than terran. i'd say that the changes would make it very hard for zerg to ever get there though. my two cents is that it would just become zerg looking for timing attacks really early on in most games.

[@vOddy75]

Which race ZvT favours depends on the map, but overall, with the kind of maps that people like to make, there are more slightly Terran favoured maps than there are slightly Zerg favoured maps.

[@ion1984]

the funny thing is, if SC1 did get a balance patch, terran would probably be hit the hardest. I know for a fact they would nerf vultures and spider mines. It's been agreed for a long time that is one of the biggest changes the game needs. 75m for the fastest unit in the game and 3 invisible bombs of death?! Yeah. but... i also don't think the turret change is a bad idea.

[@catchmyscoober]

I love how unintentionally Terran favored these changes are 😂

[@cybren3003]

*intentionally

[@ДанилаГавриков-д1ш]

Only buff

[@Optimator7]

They're the worst race, so...

[@ziyp]

Don't let modern Blizzard touch the balance. It will be a neverending nightmare. There is something very cool about an untouched classic game that remains the same forever.

[@thalanoth]

well it'll microsofts soon hahahaha

[@ripperthecrooks6428]

​@@thalanothusually Microsoft is where games go to die

[@TheJimmybobtimmy]

Plague -> limit of 200 damage + units already plagued are immune to a subsequent plague until the first plague instance wears off. Still effective against most units that it should be effective against, but not so busted vs high health units like Carriers, Battlecruisers, and Ultras.

[@shadowrobot7708]

I think dark swarm would be more reasonable if it reduced all range to 1 while in it and you cant shoot into it.

[@skroozscrungus6738]

there it is nice.

[@YelenaSgt44]

Not a bad idea

[@AttilaKattila]

I really don't know how that would affect balance even if I play Z, but I absolutely love that idea. Seems much more "realistic" or immersive as well. A couple ideas I had, disregarding the balance effects, is that: -Protoss shields would not recharge gradually, like Z health regen, but rather in one go after a period of time shorter than the time it currently takes to recharge them. A potentially interesting effect of this is that it could lead into different phases of battles in PvP/PvZ/PvT, where the first is the battle phase and the second is a retreat to recharge shields. A good effect this has is also that it reduces vfx clutter with all of the shield effects going on while explosions are going off too each time a Protoss unit is hit when the Protoss unit has shield points left. -On top of that shield upgrades would shorten this time further rather than increase the "armor" value of the shields. -Shield batteries could also add extra shield points or maybe do what they do currently but automatically without stopping the unit's actions and maybe also have more range.

[@Mpdarkguy]

Reverse disruption web

[@leevieira5083]

@Catalin Isn’t that just Dark Swarm?

[@ericpheymannicie5044]

Would those changes not just make arbiter recall literally never happen ever again for the rest of time? They already need to suicide mission into turret fields just to get the recall off in time, and still have to play very sneakily to dodge emp (even with how bad you say emp is). Your proposed changes would never balance that interaction, they would just remove one of the most interesting parts of the entire matchup. If recall wasn't as good as it is right now, protoss would never win against Terran because removing the recall means removing the threat of recall too, so Terran can cut more corners and tank push faster without worrying about a backstab (since this would also massively nerf shuttle drops). But I get the fact that these are just fun ideas. The whole point of Broodwar is that EVERYTHING is broken and it's fun to watch them all clash together in creative ways. It encourages risky play that has a real weight behind the risk. And I think that's awesome. :-)

[@iamthem.a.n.middleagednerd1053]

Scouts need to cost 25m/25g and need to build as fast as scarabs. Also, their ground attack should be the same as their air attack. That would make Scouts at least C tier

[@mixalis295]

Plus have the sc2 bc warp ability while we are at it and aoe dmg like valks, might even touch B+ that way

[@januszkurahenowski2860]

@@mixalis295 We also should make them spawn interceptors like carriers, give them wings of liberty mothership vortex and make them permanently invisible alongside the changes mentioned above, I think it would be very fair and balanced

[@dj_koen1265]

Make them permanently invisible after you research apial sensors Then that upgrade might be situationally viable

[@Broockle]

make em do a flip when you type /dance

[@Olagfigh]

Imo Scouts should cost less by 50/50 and should have speed upgrade already researched. Research to buy for them should be + 3 vision. It would be so fun to work on balance patch for SC1 :)

[@ihaveproblems9779]

Would be fun to make a custom map with these altered values and gather playerdata to see if they're liked or not.

[@dracmeister]

Most of the Stat changes (Armor, HP, Shields, Weapon Damage, Unit/Structure/Upgrade Costs and Build Times) are doable with just the vanilla map editor. Otherwise, stuff like EMP missile speed, adding/changing upgrades, unit attack ranges, damage type changes require the use of 3rd party map editors and the advanced use of EUDs (which will require the map to be played in Use Map Settings) or a mod.

[@turgid4391]

@@dracmeister I know its 9 months late but i cant find the map editor anymore? and i really liked making custom maps for me and my dad. would love to make them again. is there some external software for it now?

[@WoAzMM]

@@turgid4391 scmdraft2 on stormcoast fortress is what you're looking for

[@HasekuraIsuna]

​@@turgid4391as 3rd party map editors are so much better than the vanilla one, they have removed it and suggest people use the 3rd party ones

[@mauriciobetimpaesleme8702]

Not buffing mass queens strategy feels like a mistake, I cant remember a pro game where the zerg player either went mass queens to get the opponent off guard or because he felt he was too behind and he actually won... Whenever we see queens, Zerg loses... maybe take the energy consumption down a bit would help a lot

[@thecollectorsconundrum1928]

Love these suggestions!! We should have the pros conglomerate and consider brood wars first ever balance update in 20+ years! I think it could revitalize the community and bring so many people back!

[@NealX_Gaming]

Halve the cost of the Fleet Beacon but double the cost of the Interceptor upgrade. Make Apial Sensors grant Detection ability. Make Cloak a default ability for Ghosts without requiring an upgrade. Voila, Scouts and Ghosts are now viable in niche situations. Protoss no longer have to go Robo for detection, they can also go Stargate tree instead, just like Oracles allow this in SC2. Also gives Toss a less easily-sniped detector.

[@mimszanadunstedt441]

Scout : -75m -50g. Consume: Gain Energy based on unit mineral cost. Dark Swarm: Sets dodge chance to 98%, 99% if high ground. Plague: Does not effect shields. Consume: Can consume biological enemy units upgrade (to deal with the zealots instead of armor). Spore Colony: Deals AOE damage, upgrade on evo chamber or spawning pool. Marines: Stim addiction 2% chance upon stim use, when at full health will stim automatically, can be cured with restore, or buy an upgrade to stop it entirely. SCV: Yes to range upgrade, but health lowered to just +5 over the other races, and give them a small dodge chance during construction proportional to how much health lost. Otherwise I agree.

[@kane_lives]

Plague has never done anything to shields ever, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[@dimitaraleksandrov6381]

"Remove Protoss.. this is the first change" hahahahaha, nice 1, Artosis! To be fair and objective - if we compare Brood War to other popular RTS games - it is just insanely difficult to balance and Blizzard did a great job with the original product that came out. To this day I am still not sure how they managed to do it, but it is super impressive! At the time SC1 and Brood War came out - it was an amazing accomplishment for that era..

[@yaboykirby7789]

I think Blizzard just got insanely lucky and the community fixed the rest with the maps, like you can't tell me half the buildings having animations when they are building things and half not is intentional haha

[@BotRetro]

Agreed with many of those points. Solid patch. I'd personally look at a small bump in the price of Vultures (+10-15 minerals), because they're ridiculously cost effective; and maybe a tiny reduction in the attack rate of cracklings, because they're a joke. But fixing awful units would be a priority, definitely - scouts, infested Terrans, ghosts, etc.

[@HasekuraIsuna]

The only thing in the game that isn't a multiple of 25 is Scarabs, so you will have to chose between 75 or 100 minerals or 50m25g for the Vultures.

[@cocomunga]

My only change would be increase scout ground damage by 1, -50 minerals -10 gas cost.

[@lotgc]

To me, if I could change anything, I'd like to see the queen be more useful. I think a flat RoF debuff with Ensnare instead of a case-by-case thing would be nice, and maybe make broodling at most cost 125 energy. I guess making parasite cheaper, like 25 energy, could be nice but idk

[@linkernick5379]

Irradiate kills a unit (or multiple units) with just 75 energy, while Spawn Brooding kills only one unit with 150 energy. This would be nearly balanced, if Spawn Broodling cost 75 energy also.

[@MKANDRESTINPEACE]

thats exactly what i think it would be epic to see queens use regularly

[@ondraheligr2189]

I have an idea. They should be slow ground unit with infinite antiair range built from hatchery.

[@OpiatesAndTits]

@@ondraheligr2189 if you don’t understand why the queen exists the way it does in SC2 you don’t understand SC2. That unit is a crutch and it feels annoying but the alternative is Zerg has next to no AA and their dead by 5 minutes every game and no one plays zerg or SC2 ever again. Cry less and learn to mciro your air harass better.

[@OpiatesAndTits]

@@linkernick5379 I like this idea but I wonder if it killing the unit slower might be in line as well because instantly killing a siege tank for 75 energy while spawning two albeit worthless units seems a tad strong. irradiate kills everything zerg does so badly it makes zerg air worthless and the only saving grace is you can cast a dark swarm before your defiler dies. Maybe the answer isn’t to bring spawn broodlings in line with a frankly abusive spell but to nerf all the abusive spells across the board to be more in line with something like spawn broodling?

[@ihaveproblems9779]

I think removing the group-wide indicator for Queen vision would be supremely nice. Still visible upon individual targeting and obviously you'd see it happen in a fight. Because Zerg could use more vision imho as silly as that sounds.

[@L3monsta]

I think that parasite shouldn't cost energy but should have a Cooldown

[@HasekuraIsuna]

​@@L3monstaThere are no cooldowns in BW.

[@L3monsta]

@@HasekuraIsuna I know. Doesn't mean that such a mechanic couldn't be implemented

[@L3monsta]

@@ChristopherGoydich-cb6bd that's a great suggestion. 25 minerals each and it starts with 1 parasite by default. Seems fair to me.

[@TheProgKeyboardist]

To make the Wraith more viable as an offensive unit, I would increase its ground attack speed and damage output, but keep its health as is because it's already very easy to kill (and if need be, adjust its price and/or build time to make sure it doesnt break the game).

[@usmh]

But it has a good role as is.

[@mcspud]

These suggestions were actually really reasonable.

[@NoobVersusPro]

I think the removal of the weird +1 sight to toss is good, except for on the nexus. That one actually makes sense since terran can move their buildings and zergs have natural extra sight from overlords. (Terran also have scan). The way to code that the dark swarm would just be to give +255 armor vs range. I remember how it used to work in UMS maps back in the day. It makes units hit for 1 damage and miss every other attack. Artosis, I am so impressed by the quality and fairness of your suggestions. I thought I would likely laugh off these balance changes, but really props. By the way I think the scout is designed to cost exactly half of the carrier. (3 supply 275 minerals and 125 gas) vs carrier + 8 intercepters (550 minerals, 250 gas, and 6 supply). I know carriers used to be 8 supply when the game was released, but fun fact.

[@kane_lives]

Artosis' changes "sound" like well thought out changes, but they actually are not. It's already been TvT finals the last 2 ASLs even _WITHOUT_ Flash. Unless the entire video is kind of a meta joke (knowing how pro-Terran he is) and satire, he SERIOUSLY proposes +100% Turret damage vs Mutalisks for only +25% cost increase. And there's no compensation just for this change alone, forget the Defiler nerfs, even with no Zerg changes, just the Turret buff would make the matchup like 85-15 for Terran. Often times the problem isn't even the damage, it's the space required to make the turrets, and this makes them insanely space efficient.

[@Zelas_Stargazer]

Buff rock, nerf paper, scissors are fine!

[@elvisvandelay3402]

Interesting! Few things. - restoration I actually use, to remove parasite - ghost concussive: ghosts in bunkers is the only thing that kills 400 lings with full upgrades because they will never take a single hit of dmg - it might seem strange but its the only thing that has the range with quick enough speed to do it. You might not believe it but just try.

[@MrRenox3]

GHOST BUNKERS

[@karpai5427]

I love Ghosts in bunkers. Do you think giving them +2 damage instead of +1 for upgrade is more reasonable? I still feel like they don't deal enough damage. I don't play multiplayer though. So I don't know if it may be broken.

[@Lockieez]

These seem like reasonable changes. I would also add some QoL map balance changes such as: - change map fog of war to 'explored'; - change unit spawn from buildings to the closest point in the direction of rally point; - allow workers to rally on minerals/gas; - allow building add-ons to be placed on either left or right side; - all buildings missing research animations have them added.

[@L3monsta]

I wish remastered add those features at least as a setting that could be turned off/on (except for the add-ons one)

[@LibertyMonk]

"-- allow building add-ons to be placed on either left or right side" that's illegal tech. Spawning units on the side of the building they're rallied to is already reducing spawn differential too much, can't be also letting addons go on the other side.

[@cl8804]

After giving it a lot of thought, Artosis has arrived at the conclusion that he wants "some sort of fix here" to EMP versus Arbiters.

[@HibiscusOrchid]

It is understable the solution is vague. Because with the way the game is for Science Vessel, there is some level of 'skill' to avoid EMP. But currently, the firing mechanics of EMP is in favour more for Arbiters (in-motion) allowing for a more reactionary counter. Science Vessels cant react to Arbiters, they have to predict in advance, and that's assuming the arbiters doesnt just do a 90° turn

[@skyvipers]

My patch would include: - Scout armor 1 (Up from 0) - Scout vision base 9 (Up from 8) - Scout vision upgrade to 12 (making it an actual scout by name) - Price 150/150 - Scout speed 4.963 (Up from 3.720) - Scout is now an energy unit - Scout speed upgrade: "Gravitic Drive Boosters" - allows temporary boost of speed up to 5.50, cost 100 energy - Price 100/100 - Speed / Sight upgraded at Cybernetic Core (Down from Fleet Beacon) - Scout Price 250/100/2 (Down from 275/125/3) Role change: Instead of a niche unit as anti-Capital Ship or a troll unit, the Scout can be an actual scout with its vision buff and speed buff. Quickly send one around the map to get intel, with a chance to defend itself. Boost it to get away from Scourge or in and out for a quick kill on a Science Vessel.

[@zeburancher9480]

you make scout op with that speed boost lol. 1x vulture = theoretically infinite zerglings with kiting. 1x scout at 4.9 speed = theoretically infinite scourge with kiting. adding speed boost makes this job too easy. otherwise not bad changes. its a lot of vision, but sure. edit: check comment from syfa, they mention a detector scan ability, that might be a good alternative to speed boost +vision range.

[@iopqu]

Devourers need a huge HP buff, probably to 330 HP or so. They are insanely overpriced for what they do, and even the units they were supposed to counter - BCs actually shred them with Yamato. On some maps there's no counter play to BCs sitting on a ledge shooting the gas geyser outside of spore range. This large buff is chosen to make them viable vs. mutalisk/scourge so they can take 3 scourge hits

[@linkernick5379]

They need not huge HP buff, but totally reworked damage behavour instead. Currently zerg air cannot even nearly match with Protoss' and Terran's heavy air, that's why there is no balanced island maps used in the competitions.

[@iopqu]

They need to be beefy against Yamato and irradiate, otherwise they are pointless

[@Appletank8]

I saw one suggestion about Devourers being Spire tech, so they can actually help ZvZ air fights. Would make Mutas a bit more powerful against Corsair though, so not sure about that interaction.

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

Devourers are weird cause they debuff defence, but zerg has very little ways of...actually using that. Like...as soon as you have a 2v2 air fight with a non-zerg ally, Devourer+Corsair or Devourer+Valkyrie become really nasty combos against air. But Zerg's options for using the Devourer debuffs are...Hydralisks and Mutalisks, neither of which you really want to be making that late in the game. Honestly, Devourers should probably straight up have splash, and just be the zerg version of corsair/valkyrie.

[@Appletank8]

@@KaitlynBurnellMath Yeah, Zerg's anti-air options are a little weak. Defiler's Plague is more damaging to clumped air units than Devourers are.

[@Stranzua]

I think the pros voted for no patch because like you said it's too risky. But, this list alone shows all the units and abilities that are never/rarely used and that's an obvious balance issue. I think we all agree that patching all or some of these things at the very least are experimental. This means it would take time and more than one patch to perfect it all. Creating different balance issues is always a possibility whenever any changes are made. With that being said, i do agree with all of these..........hypothetically. Late game PvZ, for example, a small group of zerglings with the adrenaline upgrade and one defiler can obliterate expansions in seconds. A few cannons and a nexus literally melt away. On the flip side, defending a small expansion with a few sunkens, a few units, and a defiler can be hard to break. Dark swarm is so OP and we have seen some games on this channel where zergs supply is doubled(if not more) and zerg grinds it out. You can say the same for TvZ in this scenario. I remember a game with Scan recently and he was up like 60 supply, which wasn't quite double, but he tapped out. Couldn't keep an expansion long enough to do much of anything but quit. Crazy.

[@andrewzmorris]

Units/abilities not being played is not an "obvious balance issue". Maybe those units or abilities aren't even fun in the first place and they would ruin the game if they were good. Scouts are certainly a unit I think this could apply to. If Protoss had easier access to a strong air-to-ground unit, wouldn't that just ruin the PvZ matchup? Mass Corsair + Scouts would be an absolute nightmare. Instead, we have this really interesting dynamic where Protoss are very strong air-to-air and they can threaten *some* damage against Overlords, but they can't threaten drones at all. That's far more interesting. It's possible (I would say probable) that PvZ is a much more interesting matchup *because* Scouts are bad.

[@masterpanos1990]

It is indeed too risky and time has proven them correct, judging at the current state of modern Blizzard

[@Appletank8]

Honestly I'd be happy if there was any way to make Scouts + Corsairs feel like Wraiths + Valks.

[@thecurbdog123]

My only problem with broodwar is that protoss can be played at pro level with a 120apm. Where the other 2 need 300's. Every single terran unit has a skill to be used, zerg has so many cheap units they require a really high apm. But protoss is just click and move. You can literally get to b rank with protoss just a moving with 2 unit types. Goon and zlot. There is a reason, below a rank. Protoss is played by 75% of players But i would like to see scouts, ghost and maybe 1 zerg unit get buffs. To make them used more. Especially ghost and scouts. Or if infested terran's were a hatchery unit. That would be cool. That way they can be made in all matches.

[@Cristopher-S.G]

The defiler thing would instantly break the game, zergs most of the time are relying on clutch timings to defend, especially when a single vessel can fly in and irradiate all your defilers, they die within mere 10 secons or so, and the vessel can cast from far away so they have the oportunity to survive. lurkers are not invincible under swarm, you can actually irradiate hem, and it doesn't cost much energy

[@Matthew-uv6gl]

A lot of people are trying to make it sound like your changes are extreme, but I found this to be rather reasonable. Especially since you state that it is more of a concept than the actual numbers for some of the more "controversial" changes.

[@PzkpfwV]

There are some truths in your reasoning but I only see buffs for the race that historically has won the most and nerfs for the other races.

[@linkernick5379]

Let's convert BW competitions to TvT only.

[@Optimator7]

The high ladder ranks have a very different proportion of races than the upper brackets of pro tournaments

[@robolandon2787]

Guys, didn't they release a new patch for Brood War years ago? It's called "SC 2," right?

[@benoted9990]

Hmm maybe a 2nd episode with Scan. Scv need to be melee. At least do something under dark swarm

[@yesiam4610]

Guy in the chat was right, if the intention of the +2 armor late game zealot upgrade is to combat plague and swarm, any zealots that have already been plagued will have 1hp, the armor won’t help in anyway. Maybe a +1 to shields since they go all around, but i think your better off reworking an answer too it like reaver scarabs navigate right through it, or an archon upgrade to become immune to dark swarm, eyes of fire or some sheep.

[@SaturnineXTS]

These changes do seem reasonable in isolation, and I like them. But the thing is, when it comes to Starcraft balance, butterfly effect is a thing.

[@kurzackd]

some really good ideas here, but it's obvious that he's Terran-biased. Also would have been nice to hear about non-balance changes to the game's engine / design that would make it less clunky and more UX-friendly.

[@L3monsta]

The only change I wish it had to make it more user friendly sad that I wish rallied workers would auto mine. I get why elitists wouldn't want this, but I'm sad they didn't at least add it as an option for campaign

[@Appletank8]

The only change I'd make in that vein would be to have SCVs not move when building. Randomly getting in the way or wandering into the line of fire suuuucks. A lot of the "clunkiness" you mentioned is kinda built into the game's balance at this point, and you'd need a whole host of other changes to balance that out. Like, Dragoons are legitimately strong units, partly to balance out their derpiness. If they were made to walk better, they'd have to be made a bit weaker.

[@kurzackd]

@@Appletank8 yeah, I getcha, but I did not exactly have such issues in mind. More like, stuff like -- tab-bing between subgroups within a unit selection (like you can do in wc3 and sc2...), increase of maximum units you can have in a control group, etc. Also, balanced gas mining for all !!!

[@Appletank8]

@@kurzackd Control Group size is also kinda a balancing factor. If its an option for Campaign, sure whatever, in competition, it is actually a heavy limiter in how easy it is to control large armies, especially Zerg since many of their combat units are low in supply. 120 zerglings is only 60 supply, yet occupies 10 control groups. In turn, late-game zerglings do terrible, terrible damage. Another UX change I saw in the comments section that sounds pretty good is being able to have units spawn behind a building, so being top spawn or bottom spawn wouldn't be that annoying in difference.

[@kurzackd]

@@Appletank8 Um... dude... what you said about Zerg is actually something that *supports* the argument for a need for an increase in unit selection size... Zerg has always been at a disadvantage precisely due to the fact that its unit control is the hardest of all races. As for spawn locations and rally points -- good call, but that's still a not very significant change. Better would be to have workers start mining automatically if they are rallied there from the building, without having to do it manually. -- Same as in SC2. Some would say "Too radical!" but actually it's something that everyone secretly desires.

[@leeva93]

Here I fixed your balance patch TERRAN Missle Turret: Damage increase from 20 explosive to 25 explosive. Armor increase from 0 to 1 Build time from 19 seconds to 17 seconds. Mineral Cost remains the same. Optical flare: research time from 75.6 to 50.4 (same as restoration). Optical flare and restoration: research cost from 100/100 to 50/50. Energy cost remains the same. Ghost: damage increase from 10 concussive to 20 concussive. Reduce attack range from 7 to 6. Ocular implant: research time from 104.58 seconds to 63 seconds (same as lockdown) Science vessel: EMP missile speed increase by 25%. PROTOSS Assimilator: health and shields from 450/450 to 375/375. Assimilator, nexus, probe: minus 1 vision. Scout: cost from 275/125 to 200/125. Gravitic thrusters: cost from 200/200 to 100/100. Plasma shields: cost from 200/200 (+100/100) to 150/150 (+50/50). New upgrade in Forge: Praetor Armor. 200/200, 180.18 research time. Requires Level 3 Protoss ground armor. Adds additional +1 ground armor to High Templars and Dark Templars, +2 ground armor to Zealots, +3 ground armor to Archons. ZERG Infested Terran: cost from 100/50 to 50/25. Build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds. Ground armor from 0 to 2. Defiler Dark swarm: duration from 37.8 seconds to 18.9 seconds (-50% duration). Consume: reworked. Energy returned is now based on unit size. Small units restore 25 energy. Medium units restore 40 energy. Large units restore 50 energy.

[@fremoq]

Another way to change defilers consume is to make it get energy based on the max health of the consumed unit. For example a Zergling has 35 health and it would only get 17 energy if it ate the zergling. If it ate an ultralisk it would get 200 energy. Really cool thought experiment, thanks arty! Also do you really think marines don't need a lategame upgrade? You said Zealots need a +2 armour upgrade against Z but Marines are utter trash in lategame IMO. Though I am just a D level protoss so what do I know haha

[@josephrishel5634]

Protoss Shields: Its important to remember with the protoss shields armor upgrades that they can be deceptively OP as the unit regains 1 shield hp every X seconds (I think 2s game time) and that 1 shield HP still takes 4 damage to overcome at max shield armor upgrades... then the tosses armor upgrades come into play, meaning that 1 shield hp point gain on a fully upgraded toss zealot ends up absorbing 8 damage (1hp + 3 Shield Armor + 4 health armor) its kind of nuts. There were Special Forces Elite games with photon cannons with 2,000 hp and 1 shield point... and upgrading the shields armor into oblivion made them nigh unkillable. Also if Armor Reduction = or greater to damage incoming the target takes HALF a point of damage... so an ultralisk not healing with 6 armor vs un-upgraded rines takes 800 shots to die, not 400. Are they too expensive those upgrades? Yes. Just be carful making them so cheap.

[@IanFanselow]

What change for Zerg would have the smallest impact on ZvT and ZvP that would make it so you can make more than 2 units in ZvZ every game

[@bruceh1964]

Someone said above and it's so smart. Just make spores do splash damage against biological units. Clumped mutas get shredded by spores. Problems solved.

[@Appletank8]

or have a switch you can flip to make them do double concussive damage, seeing as mutas and scourge are the only light air unit in game

[@eulogp9888]

Hallucination: 50 energy but 1 hallucinated unit (it can be used before archon merger) Mind control: 25 energy/supply + all shield (MC can be played with shield batteries then) Scout: Apial Sensors give +8 vision (16 in total), but only movement detection under fog of war (to give the unit a real scout feature) Spawn Broodling: 75 energy/supply, 2 broodlings spawn by supply (works better on bio units, more broodlings per cast) Guardian/Devourer: Speed updates (separately) in Greater Spire Valkyrie: IFV Capacity research (ghosts and medics can enter the unit and cast their spells from there, except heal and cloak... more use of underused spells, especially restoration) Ghost: 40 damage instead of 10, but concussive.... an alternative DT type harrassment for late game with Lockdown support

[@Kriegerdammerung]

Many things that Artosis said here have got merit. The vision of Protoss elements for example.

[@Zraknul]

I would be very worried about balances built around anything but the pro level. But here's a stab at a giving some love to little used units and general balance changes. Vessels, defilers, and high templars are fine. Terran: Ghosts: Lockdown range +2. +8 base damage (+2 scale), attack speed reduced from .924 to 1.26 seconds/attack, +25 minerals cost. Firebats: +2 scale Protoss: Dark Archons - Maelstrom +1 radius, Feedback range +2 Scout: 175 minerals/100 gas/2 supply. 100hp/80shield. Speed 6.67 (upgrades to 8). Arbiters: +15 damage (+2 scale) New upgrade at the Arbiter Tribunal: Disciplined training - Gateway units: +1 attack/+1 armor/+1 shields (250/250 cost) Zerg: Queens - Parasite reduced to 50 mana. +1 radius Ensnare. Cocoon: +5 armor. Devourers: attack speed increased from 4.2 to 2.1 seconds/attack

[@shadowrobot7708]

You don't think tanks or vultures could need a nerf while buffing the other units?

[@hackerj23]

Yeah perhaps nerf spider mine damage to 100. Or maybe leave 125 but make concussive.

[@zeburancher9480]

​@@hackerj23 I think 100 damage for spider mines is a very good idea. but scarabs and psi storm should be explosive damage instead of normal damage, too. tanks have 100/50/25% splash damage areas. I think to remove the 50% area and expand the 25% area is a good idea. or just get rid of the 25% area. another idea is to make tanks shoot projectiles, like vultures, so they can easily overkill (wasted shots). otherwise its just dps changes. 55+5 instead of 70+5, or lower fire rate synergizes with projectiles to make baiting shots more effective.

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@zeburancher9480 I agree with this, nerf tanks a bit.

[@GummBo3]

consume should perhaps be like queen transfuse rework in sc2.. 50% energy is instant, like 25, the 25 left is gradually regenerated over couple of seconds

[@alfreddai6977]

+2 armour on zealots don't really help becuase plague leaves them all on 1 hp anyways. But this could make zealots really strong vs hydras and lings lategame so zealot runbys could be better against under-defended zerg bases but it doesn't change the core problem. Ideas to help lategame pvz to actually deal with the defiler could be: -shields are too expensive. they cost about 50 percent more than armour and only really good on archons. also protoss units default have 1 armour on their heath and 0 armour on shields as artosis mentioned. - an extra attack upgrade for zealots so that they two shot lings instead of 3 and kill maxed out hydras more efficiently. - May be better just to have a super expensive lategame upgrade that allows for zealots or protoss units to be unaffected (all protoss units unaffected may be overkill or not, really needs testing) by plague because super lategame zerg cracklings and lurkers trade super well vs zealots anyways with full upgrades even without plague and protoss needs to spend more on upgrades than zerg for shields for units that trade less cost efficiently vs zerg melee even without lurker support. - archons be able to not be affected under darkswarm allowing for archons to actually kill lurkers and kill lings in darkswarm. A protoss in a splitmap scenario with careful micro to preserve the archon count and lots of gases could afford many archons. This could reward high skill protoss players(artosis is laughing right now). Archons after all are very expensive and extremely cost in-efficient if you don't get value out of the 2 high templars initially and requires the shield upgrades to be good whilst armour makes more sense for protoss to get first as other protoss units have more health than shields hitpoint wise. -Another unit to note is the dragoon which becomes completely useless after defiler tech comes out. the dragoon is a mainstay and used in every other protoss matchup heavily. I don't know if anything should be done about this because goon templar zealot is slightly stronger than defiler-less zerg comps or about equal strength to zerg armines maxed out vs maxed out,(opinions vary) but it means there will be no incentive for zerg or protoss to get lategame units out because only defilers wreck protoss goon based comps and heavily nerfing defilers may just make zvp endless midgame armies fighting. Thus, I don't feel like goons really should have a big impact in lategame vs zerg and that reavers in shuttles to replace the goon in killing lurker fields require more micro and be more exciting than a-moving goons(scourge vs shuttle interaction as well as reaver shuttle micro to avoid hydras and lings trying to kill the reaver). -reaver scarab damage buff to oneshot lurkers? maybe too strong? who knows. some notes: -another problem with nerfing darkswarm is that protoss expansions with templar cannons and later reavers could be just about unbreakable if darkswarm gets nerfed and darkswarm is about the only thing keeping zerg alive vs terran. Depending on how swarm is nerfed, this could play a factor. -or give an ability to protoss to heal health but that goes against the race's design and theme, better to just be immune to plague than go this route. probably only 1 or 2 of the changes above mentioned should be implemented for balace purposes.

[@IYPITWL]

Hmm what if plague hit shields first instead of the HP underneath? Might be too game breaking idk. Mass hydras wreck goons, they are much smaller so they end up having higher dps. If the dark swarm got the 1 minimum dmg change and defiler didn't get instant energy then no goon change would be needed.

[@deatlilies7927]

I've been thinking about a theoretical change myself where the Queen's ensnare ability becomes their starting ability and parasite gets buffed to a point where someone might actually research it to use it. Specifically I just want zergs to have another option in midgame zvz and I feel like ensnare becoming viable might be enough to slow down the match up so we can have some longer zvzs. Although I would be worried about this messing up the delicate TvZ matchup during which the queen's nest as useful as an appendix (but is always built late game) as ensnare is really good against marine clumps.

[@valentinomanontroppo4675]

buff up the parasite uh? like make the enemy unit run towards the nearest CC/nexus/hatchery... fun

[@allydea]

Probe has +1 vision and +1 range vs SCV. Artosis thinks that's crazy. SCVs have +20 HP (+50%) vs probes and Artosis doesn't bat an eye.

[@vOddy75]

"Terran needs it". This is true. What's also true is that Protoss needs the superior economy given by probes having 1. Faster acceleration, resulting in faster mineral mining 2. The ability to start a building warpin and then leaving, resulting in more time mining minerals (and aggressive plays like gas theft and manner pylons)

[@LounoirRecords]

the last balance update for brood war was actually in may 2001 over 20 years ago, which is crazy to me

[@brazilianniceguy]

Looks like a wish list for Santa

[@vanguard6498]

artosis siege tonks can now fire on the move and every shell does splash regardless of mode

[@dew9103]

Then wouldn’t 2 fact be broken? Idk

[@vanguard6498]

@@dew9103 i corrected my comment, only artosis tanks can do this. its balanced and fair and good

[@dew9103]

@@vanguard6498 ohhhhhhhh that make sense now

[@thundasc]

How about a late game upgrade to shield battery that allows it to heal actual health, that seems like it could be a decent solution to plague. It could be tied to templar archives, arbiter tribunal or the robotic support bay.

[@karpai5427]

Not very protossy to restore their health. It is kind of their special thing.

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Sounds quite good, I would Like that as a *FINAL* Broodwar Patch except the +2 late zealot Armor Upgrade. Too strong even for late Game imo

[@dj_koen1265]

It wouldn’t even buff them versus zerg since plague removes hp anyway Making shield 2 and 3 upgrades cheaper would help much more

[@dj_koen1265]

As in would be more balanced and more targeted

[@Zraknul]

Shield upgrades should cost the same as armor upgrades. It would actually make it a decision on if you want shields or armor. It costs 525/525 to get L3 armor. It costs 900/900 to get L3 shields.

[@USALibertarian]

Increase EMP splash radius. Decrease probe movement speed slightly. Increase turret range. Decrease nuke supply cost by 2. Fix defilers by making firebats better- firebats could even have an upgrade to start out bad but actually scale with cracklings and Ultras. Also give tanks "Attack Ground" and/or let splash hit the targeted unit. Also increase psy storm damage radius but decrease total damage.

[@kane_lives]

LOL, you propose massive Terran buffs when it's already been 2 consequent TvT finals, and that is with the best Terran player away from the game. Starcraft 2 GSL is 4 Terrans in round of 4 at the moment, is that what you want for Brood War as well? How'd that happen? They nerfed good Zerg (Ravager, Viper) and Protoss (Disruptor) units and buffed bad ones, then ended up in a worse place than the one they've started from.

[@michaelsloanedog]

Give the spore colony an AOE upgrade from the spawning pool to nerf mutas in ZvZ. I know one of SC2's problems is theres too much AOE but I think this could help without effecting the other matchups in any significant way

[@Redtornado6]

I feel like that would be a bit to op. You just put one spore in your base and it does 11x damage just for existing. Imagine buffing a turret to do 11x damage

[@michaelsloanedog]

@@Redtornado6 I didnt mean the full damage dealt in an AOE just an amount

[@Redtornado6]

@@michaelsloanedog ahhhhh my bad

[@Appletank8]

I've thought of instead an alternate mode to switch from normal damage to double concussive damage. it'd slap mutas twice as hard, but be worse than useless against everything else.

[@Appletank8]

@@ChristopherGoydich-cb6bd Eh, issue is Concussive would make them absolute garbage against Wraiths, and probably absurdly deadly against Corsairs due to tearing through their shields and being Medium. Really Mutas should probably be moved to Medium. It'd make Hydras be a bit more useful at least.

[@JaRamlaProductions]

I remember when I was a kid and I watched Boxer use Flare on Overlords. It was so cool..

[@Luhrkodo]

Should buff the Queen a Little bit, broodling takes to Long to get and parasite should be cheaper, ensnare is Good but should be cheaper to upgrade

[@iopqu]

Queens are used all the time in professional games, but only vs. mech; no need to touch them

[@hunterclark5345]

@@iopqu “queens are used all the time” but only in certain circumstances

[@Appletank8]

@@iopqu Compare to Irradiate, which with 75 energy one shots Lurkers and Defiler, while Broodling costs double. The only difference is one takes more time to kill.

[@hunterclark5345]

@@Appletank8 Irradiate also kills air units, unlike spawn broodling

[@cl8804]

Let's make Turrets twice as strong per cost; what could go wrong??

[@zeburancher9480]

Thank you Artosis! for sharing your serious thoughts on a hypothetical balance patch. I love this! I'd also love if you responded to some peoples' stupid ideas (like that one video you did a while ago). I do have a ton of serious ideas, including making Mutalisks medium units instead of small unit (synergizes with other changes) - thats an alternative to your turrets idea. I'll share those another time, hopefully. here are just a FEW 'other' ideas I have, I think you will really like my idea for Defilers. I really like your 1damage idea. Terran: Battlecruisers have Guardians attack vs ground, but no Yamato Gun (still have ATA Laser Battery) Protoss: Carriers cannot build interceptors, they have Battlecruisers' Laser Batteries and Yamato Gun instead. Reavers cannot build scarabs, they have a straight-line powerful "plasma/laser" attack to 8range (like a Lurker attack, but longer range, deals friendly fire damage like siege tanks) Zerg: Guardians cannot attack, they can build interceptors instead (called Locusts or something) Lurkers cannot attack, they can build scarabs instead (called scarabs... or banelings) Defilers consume can only be cast on other Defilers. it causes the surviving Defiler to morph into an egg, and hatch ~13s later as an Ultralisk. thanks for reading - if anyone did i'd love to hear any thoughts you might have.

[@Burt1038]

Concussive damage should simply be changed from 25, 50, 100 to 50, 75, 100.

[@eulogp9888]

then make vultures more expensive

[@cl8804]

Seeing as you are suggesting significant buffs to T and significant nerfs to P and Z, the following question comes to mind: Are P and Z overpowered?

[@kane_lives]

Artosis' changes "sound" like well thought out changes, but they actually are not. It's already been TvT finals the last 2 ASLs even WITHOUT Flash. Unless the entire video is kind of a meta joke (knowing how pro-Terran he is) and satire, he SERIOUSLY proposes +100% Turret damage vs Mutalisks for only +25% cost increase. And there's no compensation just for this change alone, forget the Defiler nerfs, even with no Zerg changes, just the Turret buff would make the matchup like 85-15 for Terran. Often times the problem isn't even the damage, it's the space required to make the turrets, and this makes them insanely space efficient.

[@haoxus9413]

I think we should have loot boxes in the game, pay 1 dollar to select more than 12 units in the game

[@RiffandRoll.]

Yes!. Protoss Scout needs a considerable buff: 12 ground attack dmg(6x2), and speed upgrade cost 100/100 Zerg Guardian needs a little buff (+1 armor) Optional: Carrier -1 armor, interceptor 15 minerals, Valkirye 225 hp, Devourer 30 dmg, Dark Archon Maelstorm 75 mana

[@boyanstoyanov5147]

for Delifer I would add - MAX CONSUME UNITS = 2 Defiler is Hive unit and +1 armor make sense

[@DASGURGLINGEMU]

I love you Artosis, but even I know that this is the most Terran-drafted 'balance' patch in the history of balance patches. Thankfully you have graced the non-Terran players with Infested Terrans and Scouts, surely they will be happy with this patch

[@linkernick5379]

Ahaha 😂

[@justincronkright5025]

if it can hit more easily - so easily, then I think EMP needs to just have it reduce energy by a smaller amount and just take away shields too. That way let's say Protoss recall is almost castable after getting hit by EMP, so it's a delaying tactic rather than a straight up FULL countre to a unit which costs so much and does so little. I'd also argue for shield upgrade times to be reduced maybe by 4, 8, 12 seconds respectively or maybe 6, 8, 10/6, 9, 12. Something like that as 2 ground, 2 air & 1 special upgrade already uses up so much time on forges/cyber cores. Essentially you always need ground upgrades, so you can never get plasma shields for air if you rush for it or get in a good position to get carriers.

[@samuelkim9195]

buff terran, nerf toss and zerg. sounds good.

[@Jastro88]

I'd personally like to see a change that would increase the variation of units/tactics/strategies used in ZvZ. I can appreciate the skill required to micro, but it's just too static a meta for my tastes, and I find myself losing interest in ZvZ series. I do think that the relationship between the efficacy of hydras and mutas is a key thing here; increasing one and/or decreasing the other would be of benefit to meta diversity. There are probably a few different ways that we could increase the strategic variation in ZvZ. My two main ideas center around making hydras viable in the matchup, without affecting how they perform against Terran or Protoss *or* making it so that mutalisk aren't so dominant in the meta somehow, again without affecting the other races. Someone in this comment section already mentioned a potential change where spores could do bonus damage to bio, which could make mutas less dominant in the meta, and it also would have no impact vs T or P. Honestly this is probably the most viable idea; it would be a relatively easy change to make, and it would come with the lowest risk of negatively affecting the meta.

[@tycasts-sc252]

Artosis should consider that defilers are ground bound, don’t detect, and move slowly. Their spells also do nothing if there isn’t a Zerg army to back it up (plagued units still do full damage, dark swarm obviously doesnt do anything without actual units, etc). As an endgame high gas unit for a race that is always starving for gas, with all the other limitations I mentioned, its spells need to be that impactful to justify its use. There are plenty of pro games where the Zerg gets to defilers and eventually loses anyway.

[@gunkanjima3408]

Dark swarm is just as good defensively as it is offensively. Zerg can have 90 supply but a 200 supply enemy knocking at their door be stopped in it’s tracks while Z masses to full supply

[@valentinomanontroppo4675]

I'm with ya on most things! Maybe making the shields upgrade cheaper isn't wise. Another way to fixing the defiler would be to slash the dark swarm time duration in half. It lasts way too long. On the other hand we might have to nerf irradiate a bit. Also terran need a good counter to carriers. I think that's lockdown, but it's never used. So maybe ghosts should be made more accessible, probably they should be available after the academy. And maybe ghosts should have an extra ability by default (like the goggles thing or lockdown itself) to make them more useful and appealing

[@robrs8631]

They should include a “flip a coin” all-in guideline function for protoss. Heads = Nexus first, zealot rush, DT drop Tails = Nexus first, straight into carriers

[@fangedcow12345]

They should include a "gg" button for terrans if they're playing protoss, that would streamline the matchup dramatically lmao. Toss is so busted

[@robrs8631]

@@fangedcow12345 lol

[@CMVchannel79]

The only balance changes I would try as a test would be for units which don't see much play in competitive games. Below are the changes I would put through. 1. Protoss Scout - Give +2 damage per upgrade for ground attack (14 damage max) - Reduce time for Speed and Sight upgrade - Give +1 base armor - Reduce mineral cost by 50 2. Terran Ghost - Change damage to normal - Reduce Lockdown upgrade cost and research time - Reduce Ocular research time 3. Zerg Queen - Reduce Broodling energy cost to 125 - Change unit size from Large to Medium - Reduce Parasite energy cost to 50

[@iamthem.a.n.middleagednerd1053]

I really like the idea of giving Scouts +2 damage per uprgrade. I could see them being used a lot more and more fleet beacons for upgrades.

[@cwjalexx]

TVz changes are nuts. Terran already has a win rate advantage over Zerg. You make these changes and tvz would become 60-40 at minimum.

[@vOddy75]

The turret buff is utterly insane. There are a few maps that are slightly Zerg favoured in ZvT, and there are maps that are 50%, but there are also many many maps that are slightly Terran favoured in ZvT. Overall, Terran is statistically the strongest race, then Zerg, then Protoss, on most maps that people make. It's not much, and it depends on the map (every matchup has had maps that favour one side or the other), but to buff the already (slightly) strongest race is pure scrubbery.

[@mattrocde]

His turret changes in particularly were so out of touch with reality it was hilarious - making turrets deal double damage to mutas while only costing +25 minerals (a 33% increase in cost) is just total bullshit, and has no effect on any other matchup (carriers, shuttles, dropships, battlecruisers, wraiths, etc. are all large and take full damage anyways). Combining that turret buff with two BRUTAL nerfs to the godsend savior defiler show how little Artosis understands about game balance for broodwar. Defiler MUST be that strong and dark swarm MUST be that strong in order to provide breathing room to the Zerg player. A much more interesting nerf that might achieve more of what he wants is lowering the casting range on dark swarm so it has less offensive utility, but I could see this leading to even more stalled out late game ZvT.

[@Hatchumosc1]

The one thing I really think you're missing is observers. As protoss only mobile detection need to do something. Like reduce upgrade cost and time and add another upgrade to make them more bulky. Possibly so takes 2 scourge hits? Or at least just reduce observer gas cost? Something like that. Maybe even reduce robotics gas cost as 200/200 is quite a bit. Not exactly sure, but something really seems like it should be done there.

[@cobrave7nom76]

Sees thumbnail: Ooooo 'Dis gonna be good 😎

[@Fanofstuff]

What about for defilers, consume giving a small % of the consumed units health, so they need to eat something expensive to get energy instantaneously

[@Syfa]

I'd have liked to see a change to protoss to address their vision issues in the late game. Eg giving scouts energy and allowing their vision range upgrade to provide a toggle which makes them detectors. Something that stops some of the nonsense they experience vs lurkers in the lategame.

[@dj_koen1265]

I was thinking about replacing mind control with a scan like ability Might make darchons more prevalent Although im not sure how that would pan out

[@MKANDRESTINPEACE]

queens spells should be cheaper as templars only 75 energy for snare and boodling, we would be a lot more queen which is a cool unit

[@vanguard6498]

new balance patch artosis has infinite resources and all his units have huge amount of hp

[@vanguard6498]

protoss is also removed entirely when artosis in in the queue

[@vanguard6498]

@Felip E sounds fair, added

[@vanguard6498]

@Felip E cheers

[@JubilantJerry]

The problems with TvT still wouldn't be addressed. It should be that only Artosis is allowed to research siege mode

[@vanguard6498]

@@JubilantJerry i made a comment with my updates to the siege tank ''artosis built siege tonks can now fire on the move and every shell does splash regardless of mode''

[@misterkefir]

It needs some tweaks here and there (like a transparent fog of war for example..) but a patch? I don't think so.. the risks are just too big.. the balance is often thin as a wafer and depends on a specific map. just imo

[@filmorejohnson]

I think ~90% of these would be good changes, especially giving a little love to the underused abilities/units

[@AzraelEVA]

In my opinion there needs to be several changes to the game. In order to diversify ZvsZ strategies Z needs a way to deal aoe damage to air units, therefore Spore Colonies now deal AOE damage. This will open up the possibility to kill a bigger stack of Mutas with fewer Mutas + one spore. In PvsT Protoss can wall-in their expansions to easily with Pylons and thus don't need to protect them vs vulture harass with units. Pylons cannot be placed directly next to other pylons. Now Protoss needs to wait for the first pylon to finish before they can complete the wall. Which give Terran a Window to harass the expansion and delay it. Mines are to easily cleared thus they get four extra health. (now you need 3 dragoon shots to destroy one until attack upgrade 2) Mines don't get damage from splash damage (thus friendly fire tanks and other mines don't destroy them anymore) and psi storm.

[@valentinomanontroppo4675]

idk.. mines are pretty strong already, for the price the pylons thing doesn't seem so bad spores are already too strong

[@steinarmathisen3015]

This would ruin the game at a pro level but I’m not against the changes. One thing people forget about scouts is the build time. It’s not just the cost, they take an insanely long time to build as well