Does SF6 Allow Too Many Tournament Upsets?

[@mutantmangoman]

Great convo about the upsets. Those upsets at ECT were hype and have me dreaming of my own moment like that!

[@UltraChenTV]

Exactly! They are so important to have happen! We all have to believe that upsets are possible!

[@francissebastiansamson8561]

I think the argument for tournament format is to prevent people from getting lucky, it's not to prevent upsets.

[@FireTrainer92]

But that's what you're effectively doing.

[@francissebastiansamson8561]

@@FireTrainer92 Well, the counter argument is "hey, upsets happen!". So I'm just saying that the fact that upsets happen does not destroy the argument. Everyone agrees that about how volatile sf6 is, so the concern regarding the format is understandable.

[@azuresaiyan9005]

This has nothing to do with SF6, the competition is simply getting better. Because the netcode is fantastic, and matchmaking/getting games is so fast, as well as the internet just providing so much tech, people are progressing at much quicker rates.

[@UltraChenTV]

100%. Great point. Wish I had talked about that in the video as well!

[@Hunt9-qb1if]

And on top of it, there are so many people who are nice at street fighter that have never entered those tournaments and never felt any reason to until this magnificent game came around. People have to remember that this game is selling millions of copies yet only 10,000 people show up to these evil tournaments to play all the people that enter these tournaments doesn’t make them the only ones that are nice realistically the winner at Evo tournaments doesn’t mean you’re really the best in the world because there’s so many nice people that don’t enter but this time around way more people are entering that are really good.

[@Ibuybabyaliens]

@@Hunt9-qb1ifit don’t have nothing to do with them not wanting to go until this game came out .

[@markmessi9020]

​@@Hunt9-qb1if naw the best evo player actually is the best player in the world. Punk is godlike as of this moment

[@Damackism]

Nah its SF6. Its the most western game mechanic heavy SF game of the series. This game was tailored made for western players sensibilities and skill set . And the most random SF game in terms of gameplay variance. You got a defense mechanic that can be used offensively,Parries, and an offensive mechanic that allows any player to get in without relying on footsies. Combined that with classic SF footsies and momentum based gameplay. And you got a game that gives any really good player a chance to beat anyone at any given time. Which is good from an Esports and gameplay focus perspective. Capcom developed SF 6 that allows any player to get into. Because even an intermediate skilled player can get to master rank in online play. It just takes time, practice, and dedication. Capcom lowered the entry of play with by putting in certain gameplay mechanics and having modern controls. And put in the World Tour mode. Capcom goal was business minded first. Which is why the game has sold 4 million copies in less than 2 yrs. They want as many people as possible to buy and play SF 6.

[@sawyersimpkins9428]

TY for the upload!

[@verbatim7508]

Although less upsets would occur if best of 5 were the tournament standard, I do personally but strongly feel that this would ultimately be healthier and more interesting for the game in the long run. It's not an "upset" if the game is fundamentally designed to facilitate them, like the way Mario Party is designed-the upsets should be spread out more. That way, not only do they seem more special and exciting, they feel _real_ instead of feeling artificial or concocted. If other games like Tekken can run best of 5, I see absolutely no logistical reason why SF6 can't follow suit next CPT season.

[@ObliviousApple]

Although I don't disagree with you, I don't think the comparison with Mario Party does your arguments any favor. Games like Mario Party aren't competitive for a reason. Regardless, there are better ways to design a game with upsets in mind than this. Losing a round to input issues for example shouldn't be as prevalent as it is in SF6.

[@UltraChenTV]

To be fair outside of ECT, the upsets are really few and far between. They happen, but as someone else said, that’s also an indication of how good the entire player base has gotten thanks to good netcode. Even players like Marine (who beat Dogura in SFV once) and Young Matt Teen winning aren’t unreasonable upsets. Even AngryBird said on SFL EU that he’s just more vulnerable in 2/3 sets. And that isn’t a sign 2/3 is not accurate, as I said, 2/3 is its own skill like 1/1 was for SBO.

[@verbatim7508]

@@ObliviousApple I used Mario Party intentionally because I knew it would provoke a negative reaction. That's the idea. Any step towards Mario Party is a step in the wrong direction, and SF6 is closer to Mario Party than any other game in the series has been except for maybe Super Turbo.

[@FireTrainer92]

​@@verbatim7508 poor argumentation there then.

[@verbatim7508]

@@FireTrainer92 Pathos is a cornerstone of good argumentation. You don't seem to know a lot about what makes argumentation poor if that's what you think

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

I'm not sure if my Discord DM went through but hey if y'all are looking for someone to help timestamp then I'd love to help out. Also, thank you for the KZbin upload. I never really thought about the upset conversation much even though I've heard a handful of pros complain about them. It's amazing to think that the well known players of our time were once the randos upsetting the old guard.

[@satsuinotanden]

I mean i get both sides of the coin. On one side yeah a ft3 is a more definitive outcome as opposed to ft2. That being said some of these large tournaments have a ton of entrants and organizers set things to ft2 in pools to keep things moving or it would take even longer than it already does to get your top 8 figured out. You made some valid points regarding upsets and etc too.

[@stuffilike6755]

@3:15 hey James, did you ever see The Wrestler?

[@jesse76th96]

SF6 is a fast game because Drive Meter and Super Meter are separate. That means the last round is usually 2 touches into death because saving lvl 3 meter for the kill is the most important strat right now. If Drive Meter and Super meter were linked we'd have longer matches because a light punch into drive rush combo into lvl 3 super would be super rare. past SF games it would be down to the wire with a single hit to win, in this game its 1 stray hit into 50% combo every match.

[@lt_johnmcclane]

It gets a bit repetitive with how every match ends up with who can get the hit into level 3

[@FireTrainer92]

​@@lt_johnmcclaneyes welcome to every game ever.

[@Yeet-ing]

@@lt_johnmcclane mate if thats a problem for you, then competitive gaming ain't for you. Find another hobby.

[@Hunt9-qb1if]

It’s called better competition because streetfighter six is such a great game that other top players that never entered the competition are now entering and y’all think that’s a problem? Lol I’m sorry if your favorite tournament players aren’t winning as usual because the competition is better think about these evo tournaments you got like 10,000 people that show up with these tournaments yet these games are selling millions of copies and think everybody that shows up and enters these tournaments are the only ones that are nice? No, millions and millions of copies of this game were sold. It’s simply called better competition and your favorite tournament players are not the best in the world like you’ve been believing in passed games when they haven’t played everybody in the world

[@grayfox4994]

lets be honest here, the amount of adverts and long intervals in a stream is pretty insane. Yes, we know advertisement = more sponsors and revenue, but the old days when we literally have double the matches, we didn't have to deal with this "e-sport" money. So most of (us) the audience is more engaged and entertained, as more matches means most likely you will see players like Daigo on stream than being played in the background. Yes, its a hard thing to balance, as money = more players able to build careers in gaming, but it also kills the whole vibe we had in SF4 in terms of matches being streamed compared to now.

[@chimpmasterflex]

On 3/5 meaning less streamed matches, there's already so much downtime between matches at most tournaments, I feel it wouldn't change very much. If anything we might even get more time of matches being played. For most offline ones especially, I feel it is almost 50-50, matches being played, vs no matches being played. Excluding top 8s, but even then, it isn't often too much better (at least from what I've seen). Like man, we get 15-20 minutes of matches, with around a 5-10 minute break, and another 10-15 minutes (or more) of commentators yapping between matches, or intros/outros. Even on the ad breaks, it is so annoying how many tournaments extend them after whatever time is set. So sometimes I'll just go do something else, and come back to the match I actually wanted to see, being wrapped up, because of how fast some of the matches can be lol. On how volatile the game is, I think it is a bit too much in that department, and that's coming from a marvel player. Some of this is even more amplified, by how blessed some characters are with button choices lol. But I don't like how much I straight up feel like I'm guessing at pretty much every moment of a match, outside of the first few seconds. Even checking drive rush used to feel a bit better, but now there are so many fakes and feints you can do, so checking can mean a punish counter dr normal, where you just explode. And like, that's cool that the game is evolving, but I guess just in the way I find fun. I also find that people tend to give basic answers to these issues, like "oh just delay tech", as if that can't be blown up. Medium into Dr, should always be dp'd/drive reversaled/supered through, but you can watch sfl us, and watch mena do gief level 1 to dual kevin trying to dp the drive rush lol. I think they would need to change too much about the game, for me to love it again.

[@UltraChenTV]

Making 3/5 won’t change the downtime between matches or the ad timing to be honest. And most of the time the timer goes longer than normal means something is exploding somewhere. LOL! Having been behind the scenes, we’re still grassroots making a broadcast out of spare parts practically, and so much shit goes wrong all the time. One day I’ll write a book about that. Hahaha.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@UltraChenTV Is it really still that bad on that end? I'd figure there was so much experience on broadcast teams by this point, that they would be more minimal than that. And obviously I know we can't control tech issues necessarily, but still lol. I also want to clarify, I know that wouldn't change the downtime, but 3/5 would mean the matches last longer, meaning there should in theory, be more time of the game being played a bit too. Cause as is, I find pools are hardly worth watching anymore. Somewhere around top 96-32 (depending on tournament format), are where I start to care now.

[@UltraChenTV]

Sorry for the late reply. But just wanted to add: there are a lot of parts to a tournament. It’s not just the broadcast exploding, it’s anything. We’ve had to delay returning from commercials because the PlayStation needs to be swapped out, trying to fix commentator audio, waiting for a player or even a commentator returning to the desk from the bathroom, a piece of equipment just decided to die right there on the spot and must be replaced, a player’s stick died and they’re trying to find a replacement, etc. etc. Streaming really is Murphy’s Law waiting to happen. There’s so many moving parts.

[@sardjack]

The point is that the game has a level of volatility that makes the upset "likely", and therefore less hype and feels undeserved beating a player better than you in 3S/USFIV is not the same as beating him in SF6 Capcom themselves said they want this, I don't understand why people are surprised

[@BrewSir]

A competitive game without upsets would just be boring. But also we're expecting too much from top players; they can't always be playing at peak performance. That and not giving lesser known players enough credit when they're possibly putting in just as much work. But at the end of the day it's well known players that are winning the events, so the game really can't be that volatile

[@interceptingfist5682]

No matter how bad i play, i always feel like I'm in the game because of drive impact and drive rush

[@ericpeterson1383]

Upsets are fine! But any game would benefit from FT3 instead of FT2 if time allows it. SF6 matches are plenty fast for FT3 pools.

[@jpVari]

I've only been in the fgc since like 2020, but coming from starcraft the idea that losers brackets are fundamental to fgc tournaments always seemed to me to be a concession that fighting games are going to have some upsets... Nevermind that we've multiplied the amount of games the best players play via online tournaments and streaming so mathematically there'd always be more upsets... That's if these even really are that big of upsets. As always, there are people that will find evidence everywhere to support what they already believe, which is that the newest entry in a series also has to have some deep issue we've never seen before. It's magical thinking. And it's tiring. Thankful for bluesky lmao. And yes there's literally no right answer.

[@JimmiePitts]

You should consider not time stamping and then check your analytics/ view count and actually see if it's making a difference. I use to go crazy on KZbin small stuff like that to make better videos until I realized people would just watch me for me and it changed nothing on the analytics front

[@BigMujK]

Would love tournament highlights shows like real sports, maybe not even a full set just best game from a set, with analytical breakdown, player interviews. Would cost money but I think it would bring more eyes onto Fighting games.

[@ShinOwen2]

You can’t make people happy 😊. In SF4 people was crying it’s too defensive. Well cry 😭 babies 👶 you got your wish. DI’s, and jabs into DR’s and throw loops for days.

[@younghou]

I'm sorry, James, but I disagree for the following reasons: Upsets are natural in any competition when a player improves their skill level and manages (through their own merit) to defeat a strong opponent. There’s no point in manufacturing upsets by implementing extremely short sets (SBO) or adding volatility to the game (SF6). The goal of tournaments and competitive circuits is to determine who are "truly" the best players in the world. This is very different from a reputation system (which is often based also on exposure or success in other games). Consequently, you want the format and/or the game to allow the best player to win (independent of luck or "name recognition"). It harms and limits the careers of pro players. Unless you’re part of the 0.001% (Punk, Menard, Angrybird, maybe about 8 players globally), it becomes extremely risky for sponsors to trust or support other players, as the volatility offers zero guarantees of winning or even appearing on stream. (This is one of the reasons why Japanese players don’t travel to premier offline events).

[@FireTrainer92]

This is an anti-community sentiment that comes up about every few years that doesn't play out as well as described.

[@fRikimaru1974]

James, that mic sounds funny 😅😅😅

[@UltraChenTV]

It’s so messed up. I’m getting a new one soon!!

[@ForestTekkenVideos]

A new upload, yay! Here's a possible topic of discussion for a future Tuesday show. Apparently people are just getting to master rank and are quitting kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJO1hJ1mhtuGotksi=2fTTLp5REHX2mr7M

[@terrysalt]

How about the middle ground: Play as many games as needed for one player to be 2 games ahead of the other. :p

[@UltraChenTV]

That could go on forever. LOL! I still remember the Hotashi vs. Latif exhibition in Strive. No one ever got a 2-game lead until it was actuall 13-11 I believe. It was first to 13 in the first place, but it can definitely happen that it could go on very very long.

[@beam5655]

I pretty much completely disagree on this one. Tournaments should reduce variance and maximize competitive integrity (i.e. the better player wins) as much as possible. When a game or sport has high competitive integrity, then when upsets do occur it's an amazing moment. You can see this in Basketball, or Tennis, or Chess; upsets are near universally celebrated by neutrals because the players and fans fully buy in that the underdog meaningfully outplayed their opponent. And they buy in because those games have a track record of rewarding skill to the utmost. So back to the discussion of 2/3 and 3/5. 3/5 simply has less variance than 2/3, the better player will win more often in that format. That doesn't mean upsets will never happen, it just means that tournaments will be more stable. FT3 is better than FT2 for the same reason FT2 is better than FT1, yet I have never seen people calling for FT1 tournaments. And large offline FT3 have been ran successfully, like The Mixup in France. It is completely feasible, sf6 matchs on average are much faster than sf4 or 5. And for massive tournaments like Evo, then something like top 24 FT3 would be a good compromise. My favorite example for showing how much format matters is this: Rodger Federer, one of the greatest tennis players ever, only won about 55% of the time for each individual point. But given that tennis matches use an extremely long format, he won the match over 80% of the time. Format matters, A LOT.

[@UltraChenTV]

Format matters a lot, yes. That was never in contention. Again, as I said, it just depends on what the TO wants. SBO was never considered a joke being FT1 single elimination. It was still held very high in prestige when someone won. My main point was that you can’t use upsets as an argument for FT3. Because again it’s just what you want out of your event. You bring up basketball, but March Madness also exists. And people love March Madness. And that’s best of 1, high variance, high upsets, but still many consider it to be one of the most exciting tournaments every year for that reason. And tennis is tough. Because for a while there, we were getting basically zero variance between Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and partially Murray. And… some people would have argued that it was getting a bit boring. It helped, however, that Federer and Nadal were extremely likable and Djokovic was a great heel in a way, though many people love him, too. But there are people who preferred women’s tennis, as that had way more upsets and a lot of variance. Different players were winning all the time outside of Serena. But for me, especially during the Davenport, Hingis, Sharapova, Williams, Williams, and (one of my personal favorites despite her horrendous serving) Dementieva, etc. era, I loved that so many different players won all the time. The variance was fun. So it’s impossible to say tournaments being more stable is objectively enjoyable when there’s a lot to counter that claim. Again, many people prefer stability. Despite my love for women’s tennis, I can’t fux with March Madness because it’s so chaotic so I do prefer the NBA (also helped I watched during the Kobe era and watched 5 championships… hahaha). But there are those that love the chaos. The main problem is that anything that is a part of the CPT has to follow CPT rules. I do hope CPT shifts the bo5 to top 24 or top 48. But I also like that events that are not a part of the CPT can run bo5 the whole way if they want. And some events can run bo3 the whole way if they want. Even smaller tennis events will run men’s matches in a best of 3 sets from time to time. In rulesets, I definitely prefer variance. ^_^

[@depictiongames9758]

Upsets are what making tournaments fun to watch. If there were never any upsets watching the matches would not be very hype

[@verbatim7508]

But too many upsets, and it makes the game feel like unserious. If anybody could win, that tends to sap the meaning out of the whole process of becoming "good" at the game. There's a reason why Mario Party isn't an esport.

[@depictiongames9758]

@ but this is street fighter. I think truly deep down nobody thinks that luck is the biggest factor in a win.

[@verbatim7508]

@@depictiongames9758 It's not the biggest factor, but it's become a bigger factor than it ever has been, which is a bad thing imo. Even if it's only by a factor of 0.1% compared to SFV

[@depictiongames9758]

@ this game is a lot about reading your opponent. That is going to end up with a lot of games feeling like you got randomed out. Its just the nature of the beast and I think sf6 strikes a good balance between chaos and order

[@verbatim7508]

@@depictiongames9758 It really doesn't, so we'll just have to disagree

[@PipeRetrogamer]

Dominating classes always want to fix the rules to perpetuate their dominance. Ft2 is perfect for sf6, doesn't need a change.

[@SuperLemonfish]

What a way of phrasing that LMAO. In this case that "dominating class" you are mentioning, are just people who are better at the game XD. Oh no! People who are better, want their skill to have more of an impact on the results! Why is that a bad thing? Like what are you even saying? *Edit: remember, the purpose of a tournament ostensibly is to find the player with the highest skill. So again shifting to fr5 is really just objectively better for doing that.

[@PipeRetrogamer]

​​@@SuperLemonfishthen let them show they are better on ft2 format ? Also, if they're getting upset and need longer sets to beat oponents more consistently, they're just not good enough for tournament play format and are just blaming their skill issue on the game.

[@SuperLemonfish]

@@PipeRetrogamer nobody in sf6 is capable of winning consistently, but in almost all other fighting games, they are able to win consistently. This shows that it IS the games fault, and not the players. Its actually really obvious that sf6 is extremely volatile when you just look at the interactions per kill, the amount of and strength of the neutral skips, and the extremely easy execution. The game is volatile and pretty scrubby, and to mitigate that, and reward player skill more, moving to ft5 is better. What about this dont you understand or agree with? Genuinely curious.

[@UltraChenTV]

I don’t agree with that. The winners of SF6 have been extremely consistent. It’s just that the number of players capable of winning SF6 is MASSIVE. So it feels like the other games are more “consistent” but it’s more that their top level player base is smaller. SFV wasn’t any different though people like to pretend it is. We had this same conversation back in SFV days because the results weren’t “consistent.” But what parts of Shuto winning Singapore or Tokido winning Japan or Itazan winning ECT is inconsistent? The qualifiers for NA East for Capcom Cup so far are Mena, Punk, iDom, and NuckleDu. It’s really very consistent if you ask me.

[@SuperLemonfish]

@@UltraChenTV there is some level of consistency, but its not at a level i believe is healthy or fair. When you say there are a huge pool of players capable of winning, i agree! But the question is *why* are there so many capable of winning? Well i believe the answer is that the game is very volatile and easy to play., And that an extremely high level of skill isn't rewarded nearly as much as in older titles, and as such, the chances of a super grandmaster beating a grandmaster (to put it in chess terms) isn't a significant enough chance. Basically skill ceiling is rather low, so to pronounce the skill gaps more, we should move to a more stable ruleset to compensate for the games lack of stability. I strongly believe relatively high consistency brings viewership. People like following their favorite players through their journey. You can see in sports of all varieties profit and rise in viewership when certain players or teams gain notoriety through consistently good performance.

[@Heavymetalthunda3]

Didn’t people complain about this exact thing in SFV?

[@UltraChenTV]

They absolutely did.

[@SuperLemonfish]

Look at MenaRds newest interview. He does not agree with you. Not at ALL. He agrees with me, saying that the grandmaster's, the top 5 players in the world, have no gaurantee to make top 8. Not enough separation. That "good enough" players, can easily upset any day of the week and win. That *70%* Of the volatility is because of the games mechanics. And even if we switched to bo5 the game would still be quite volatile. He is quite an expert id say. He probably knows what hes talking about.

[@UltraChenTV]

He absolutely knows what he is talking about. I’ve never said that bo5 wouldn’t be more stable. Of course it’s more stable. My point was that that doesn’t make it right. I even said in the video OF COURSE the players will want bo5. I even said that I myself as a fan of the game would prefer bo5. My point is the bo3 *isn’t wrong*. Just because it is more volatile doesn’t make it a less valid format. Adding in the volatility could very well be intentional and actually desired. And again you have to take into account what goes along with bo5: less matches on stream, more time and stations, etc. Which all basically means: more money and more costs. If we could, we should be running these events like tennis grand slams that last two weeks, right? Again, that costs money. And most players can’t be away from home that long realistically. The point is that bo5 is nice. But bo7 is better. And bo9 better than that. If stability is what you want AND you have unlimited budget. We are in an environment where we might not have that type of freedom to do that sort of thing. Now, bo5 is the least expensive and least difficult to pull off for the resources we have, of course. But again, there’s nothing that says bo5 is the RIGHT way to do it. It’s clearly not the wrong way, but it’s also not the de facto right way. Every tournament will be different. And that’s fine. SF6 might be volatile, but again I don’t think it is as bad as people say it is. Right now in Capcom Cup XI, most of the qualifiers are people we expect. In fact, in Season 2, it’s LESS volatile. We actually have MenaRD, Punk, NuckleDu, and iDom all in Capcom Cup and they’re all from the same region. Xian is back whereas he missed the last SFV Capcom Cup and he basically hasn’t missed any other Capcom Cup. Tokido is in. Itazan is in. Leshar is in. NL is in from Korea. in NA West, we have Nephew and ChrisCCH in. JB can still make it via the World Warrior this Wednesday. And those are the theee best in NA West right now. Etc. etc. It’s really not as volatile as people make it out to be. So I dunno, I think it seems pretty consistent right now. Again, the point is that bo3 isn’t some huge mistake. And of course players want more matches. That’s almost a given and not any sort of surprise take.

[@planexshifter]

What the hell is a yewt?