Does The CNS Get Trained? | Starting Strength Network Previews

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[@JH-dr6do]

He’s husky and pink, doesn’t care what you think Watch him box squat 405, and then pour a drink

[@GreyRock100]

The nervous system needs to get stronger..and the best whey for the nervous system to get stronger, is for it to gain 80lbs.

[@edwardburroughs1489]

If the nervous system is 5'9'' and weighs 210 I'd say it needs to gain 20lbs in a month!

[@cparksaffluent]

😂😂😂

[@fractal_gate]

"Neuromuscular improvement is one of the main reasons strength and power can be gained in the absence of muscle-mass increases, although hypertrophy normally accompanies a strength increase because the adaptation to the stress of training involves both hypertrophy and increased neuromuscular efficiency.This is why novices grow in both size and strength from the immediate onset of training" - Practical Programming

[@johnRivs]

When a person does a heavy set of deadlift, there is sistemic fatigue, correct? What exactly is that sistemic fatigue? I've heard similar things about "CNS fatigue", like "a big axial load on your spine will do that." I get confused with the terminology.

[@rdmckeever7645]

I first saw that idea in a paper by D G Sale "Neural adaptation to resistance training" in Oct-1988 Med Sci Sports Exerc. 35 years of additional research proves, it doesn't matter - just do the program and you will get stronger...

[@one23four68]

Yes you will certainly get stronger but the argument seems to be will you necessarily get much bigger muscles? And if someone wants to have big muscles do they really need to have a 400 lb squat?

[@fsmoura]

Dear Rip, I'm having trouble making progress because of _CNS fatigue_ and its complications with my _Sagittal instability._ Please advise. P.S.: I'm Not Doing The Program.

[@WellDressedCaveman]

Nice mug!!!

[@chrisarp4111]

What is improved initially is development of skill, inter-muscular coordination and intra-muscular coordination. Those adaptations are small CNS changes. CNS is a genetic component that can be improved very little, though muscular coordination changes.

[@stevesutton772]

Good question

[@martystrasinger3801]

I thought it was the peripheral nervous system that directly manipulates skeletal muscles, not the CNS.

[@elcapitanian]

SS got me stronger at a pace that no other program did. However, I did notice that my muscular volume was much lower the stronger i got, but most of the missed volume seemed to have been sarcoplasmic. No doubt I gained lean muscle, but muscles looked significantly smaller than when i was weaker doing more volume.

[@Eternalpain23]

What?

[@Mesjasz]

​@@Eternalpain23seems that he came to strength training from hypertrophy training and loss mass, while becoming stronger. @nestortr08 how was your diet? You were counting calories or not? Had similar effect, to some point, have been doing bodybuilding type of training, couple years of, when I lost all mass, then start doing 531, in couple of years I came to the same weight at similar bf, but my muscles feel completely different. Much harder, without flexing

[@one23four68]

@@Mesjasz Did you max out on ss before moving on to 5-3-1? Also do you think 5-3-1 is ok for beginners? I do BJJ and SS seems like it would be very taxing to keep up with alongside training.

[@stevesutton772]

I will say that when i was a newb i thought 5x5 was across the board and once did 5 sets of 5 dead lifts and i literally felt like i was going to black out driving home.

[@clownpocket]

Did you find out that there is no 5x5 at all in the novice program yet?

[@jwgreene1984]

THE KID GAINED 10 pounds of neurons!!!!😂

[@fsmoura]

It better . . . or else it gets the hose again! (" oДo)

[@JH-dr6do]

Frederica used to work for Mrs. Lippmann. Did you know her?

[@BoeserWolf1977]

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but it is clear that the main driver for strength is the neuromuscular system. You just need to look at the lightweight weightlifters. Their performance is much higher on a relative level than the performance of the heavy weights (compare the lifts of the e.g. 85kg class to the 120kg) But I agree that this is not important, when you set up a program for general muscle and strength building.

[@dafunkmonster]

Then why do people stop getting stronger when they stop gaining weight? Why do people fail to make progress when they're not eating enough calories, but start making progress when they eat more calories?

[@BoeserWolf1977]

There is no progress in the weight classes over time? Dan Green is not stronger than Phil Heath? You don't add to your personal PR by switching from BB To PL style of training without gaining weight? You can get stronger without adding muscle, you can add muscle without getting stronger and you can add to both.

[@bloodysath]

What's the difference between neuromuscular System and CNS? Doesn't the CNS regulate the neuromuscular System?

[@BoeserWolf1977]

@@bloodysath the cns is mostly the brain. NM is the connection to the muscle. Not just physically but efficiency and pattern. In my interpretation

[@dafunkmonster]

@@bloodysath CNS is the brain and spinal cord. It's the thinking/transmitting part. Neuromuscular efficiency is determined by the local interface between nerve endings and muscle fibers. It is essentially the proportion of muscle fibers activated by a given nerve signal. It's almost entirely congenital and can't be trained. Perceived increases in neuromuscular efficiency in novices are probably mostly just the result of practicing the movement patterns and learning how to push harder. That is, neuromuscular efficiency isn't actually increasing. The novice is just learning how hard they have to push. A lot of novices have never actually tested the limits of their force production. What they perceive as "the hardest they've ever pushed" is probably not the hardest they can push. Also, novices will have a less-than-ideal bar path, which compromises their ability to move the weight. As they practice the movements and the bar path improves, their lifting capacity improves. But this, again, was not an increase in neuromuscular efficiency or even strength. It was just an improvement in the efficiency of the movement due to practice. Improved movement efficiency is not improved neuromuscular efficiency. Improved proprioception is not improved neuromuscular efficiency. To demonstrate an improvement in neuromuscular efficiency, you would have to take someone who has already perfected the movement pattern and already knows how to generate a "maximum effort" nerve signal, and then show improved power without a corresponding increase in strength or muscle mass.

[@ciswhitemalewithextraprivi7898]

Here's what happened when I went from doing regular dips, to dips on suspended rings. Day 1 - Could barely do 1 rep Day 2 - Could do 8 reps Day 3 - Could do 10 reps Day 4 - Could do 10 reps So obviously my muscles didn't get 8 times as strong in less than 24 hours. The same thing happened when I used a wobble board. On the first day, I could barely stand on it for 3 seconds, and the next day I could do it for 2 minutes straight. It seems like this process takes around 4 days to complete. Then it just stayed around that point, and I started to add weight. This establishment of a motor pathway is why I always do a semi-light version of my lifts one day before I do them heavy, so as to keep the pathway fresh. Usually it's just a warm up, and then around 75% of my work set weight for one rep, and I really focus on technique. So in conclusion, I think doing a warm up set 1 day before the main lift, where you really focus on good technique, would allow you to display the most neuromuscular efficiency the following day.

[@GrGal]

Interesting! Will try that

[@SOC-ir6im]

Pretty funny all the people that lose their shit over unproven or just plain false/stupid statements about body building and strength. See it all the time even fights erupting 😂 whatever who gives a f do your thing why you mad bro just preach it lol 🙏

[@one23four68]

If the two mechanisms are not separate then how do we explain guys who can lift big weights but don’t have very big muscles compared to a bodybuilder who may have lower numbers on the bar?

[@edwardburroughs1489]

Maybe some people just have awesome motor unit recruitment. Plus bodybuilders try to lift as much as possible and when you see them 'compete' they are depleted AF anyway.

[@soonahero]

@@edwardburroughs1489what about the 40 kg female powerlifters

[@jeffriggins9106]

Greg nuckols has an article on this. Limb length, insertions of muscle etc all play a role.

[@soonahero]

@@jeffriggins9106 they don’t change over time. Their strength can triple while going from 20 bmi to 19 bmi

[@edwardburroughs1489]

@@soonahero What about them? One thing is that they cheat every rep on the bench. Not blaming them but the sport has very silly rules.

[@johanhansson4574]

Are U kidding me? Of course your nervous system gets fatigued from pushing yourself to lift heavy weights. And as a beginner U get better at pushing yourself as time goes by. It's a straw man argument that it doesn't go along with bigger muscles. Who ever said that?

[@cparksaffluent]

10 pounds in a week?.. right..

[@edwardburroughs1489]

If 'he' gained 10lbs in a week that'll be fat deposition from a Rippetoe endorsed diet, glycogen stores, inflammation from a powerlifting regime that he's not used to. How much muscle has been grown? In reality can it even be a 1lb? I suppose there could be skeletal density increase, which is a good thing.

[@gsquared2394]

A good portion of that is “lean mass” which means muscle, bone, tendon, ligament; the rest will be fat, which is less noticeable because of the good tissue that has been grown.

[@soonahero]

Is there any other way?

[@edwardburroughs1489]

@@gsquared2394 Indeed. It would be nice if Rip could internalize the fact that not everyone is a competitive powerlifter who needs to be obese to compete though.

[@AllPainNoGains]

​@@edwardburroughs1489only multiply powerlifters and superheavyweights are fat. The top guys in every weight class will almost always have visible abs and bicep veins.

[@dafunkmonster]

@@edwardburroughs1489 Trying to only eat enough extra calories to grow muscle without ever gaining an ounce of fat means you'll be failing lots of sets and making very, very slow progress, if at all.

[@ChristopherSalisburySalz]

I think the CNS does adapt. Trained lifters have the ability to recruit more muscle fibers when lifting. You become more "coordinated" for lack of a better word. You have women training in your gyms and you sit there with a big coffee cup with breasts on it? Pretty disappointing. You can be strong and not a douchebag - you know that right?

[@Kevin3310]

The fucker gained 10 lbs of mostly fat and his strength improved in all the lifts because he simply learned to do them better. They didn’t get stronger because of significant muscle gain.