Dog Trainer Reacts to Zak George: Is there a "dog training crisis"?

In recent weeks, ‪@zakgeorge‬ has claimed the dog training industry is in crisis. But is this true? What does the science say about the use of aversive tools and does his claim that aversive tools are never required hold water?
I strongly encourage you to check out the original video here • State of Emergency: Th...
Just some of the trusted professionals I'll refer cases to:
Dr Tom Mitchell, BSc BVSc MRCVS
www.beha.vet
Terrie Hayward, M.Ed., KPA-CTP, CDBC, CPDT-KA, CSAT
positiveanimalwellness.com
Laura Donaldson, PhD, CDBC, KPA CTP
fourpawsfourdirections.com
Additional Resources:
Defensive Handling in emergency situations ‪@AggressiveDog‬
• When Sh*t Hits the Fan...
Reactivity & Aggression Playlist by ‪@getacalmdog‬
• Reactivity & Aggression
Games-Based Training gets superior results with police dogs ‪@GeniusK9LIFE‬
• Changing The Game Plan...
Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA, KPA-CTP
grishastewart.com
Un-Chase!® (predation and R+ snake avoidance)
/ 100071094293190
Positive Reinforcement Snake Avoidance Protocol
www.clickertraining.com/snake...
Canine Enrichment for the Real World (Allie Bender & Emily Strong)
amzn.to/3H5JZnT
AVSAB Position Statement on Humane Dog Training
avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/...
O'Heare, J. (2013) The Least Intrusive Effective Behavior Intervention (LIEBI) Algorithm and Levels of Intrusiveness Table: A Proposed Best-Practices Model. Version 5.0. Association of Animal Behavior Professionals.www.oebdh.at/images/stories/R...

[@nobodyyouknow7226]

I don't really think there's a "Dog Training Crisis", as much as there is a "People won't listen to me, me alone, and my methods exclusively. I can't force them, other trainers are starting to get more popular than me, and I'm mad about it." crisis. His childish and borderline harassment of trainers like Dog Daddy, that handles dogs Zac would probably wind up getting euthanized at the shelter if not for him, is absolute proof of that.

[@gregcarrick4785]

Love dog daddy

[@MariaJimenez-do2eh]

Where’s your training videos of aggressive dogs?????

[@Dabrownman1812]

The issue is with a lot of these "pure positive" people, I rarely see them handle rough dogs. Also, dogs regularly communicate with each other physically. There's a weird hubris to not be "physical." Also, training dogs who are young/mellow isn't the same training a pitbull that constantly attack. I gotta see how those studies are done. There isn't a nuance discussion in dealing with certain behaviors here.

[@heidigib01]

He recommends euthanasia for aggressive dogs as opposed to any training more aggressive than hot dogs?

[@robertborjajr3244]

Ya like the dog trainer says you cant teach all dogs to have behavior you want with milk and cookies. Also in dog packs their rarely so sweet with each other. Actually a puppies mother is not even so sweet. To tell you the truth you dont sweet talk you kids with sugar cookies and candy do fall in line you use plenty of negative reinforcement. If you do your kids will prob be screwd up .

[@Dabrownman1812]

@@heidigib01 There will always be the "nice" people who would rather kill things that makes them uncomfortable

[@Dabrownman1812]

@@robertborjajr3244 yeah, the issue is many develop complexes as they get older from not being nipped while young. Not everyone knows the signs or how to handle them.

[@53lobosr]

It is almost self defeating to stand on science about training a dog. There will be 10 scientist today that will contest the 10 scientists of yesterday. Dog training can be cruel if you believe you must attack a dog to teach it anything. What will help a trainer is the actual ability to communicate with a dog in the least offensive way. No touch necessary when teaching sit, very little touch when teaching down. Yes reward with treats or soothing voice of good dog. No punishment necessary as the trainer should direct (after showing how) then correct without a confrontation. No hitting, no choking, no kicking, no angry chastising. I have used research from the past for understanding. I love dogs and want people to have good dogs. I emphasize ownership responsibility. Don't set your dog to fail and then blame them.

[@Escandella118]

Very informative video!! So happy it showed up in my feed today!!❤

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Thank you for the feedback! 😊👏

[@claire9481]

Love this Natalie and your scientific take, and also your comments about training for the situation and not in the situation with games. ❤️

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Thank you Claire! There is always more to say about the science of learning - even with all the info I've presented here, it STILL isn't the full picture! Games-based training certainly isn't the norm but I'm so glad that people like absoluteDogs, Leslie McDevitt and Susan Garrett - who I'd consider the founder of games-based training - I'm so glad these amazing people are teaching people about the power of games.

[@arilitamoore3878]

Thank you for your insight. It’s inspiring.❤😊

[@zauberbergk9]

I as a trainer really appreciate your effort to explaine in a scientific way! Right down my alley- couldn't agree more. I just subscribed, because I found you through an argument with a clown.

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Haha glad it all worked out in the end! 😁

[@thomasd9237]

Huh. Looks like Zak finally got around to reading a dog training book

[@zakgeorge]

Thank you so much for responding to this! I really appreciated your commentary and supplementary information. Your perspective was very valuable!

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Zak, how do I even begin to thank you (and Bree!) for your endless efforts in this space? For nearly 2 decades on this platform alone, you have bravely spoken out, making your ethos public and concrete - despite the risk of drawing a target on your back! The way you and Bree have fielded comments from critics on that video in particular has been an education. On those days when the haters take a toll, on the days where you may consider stepping back, please know that there are quite literally millions of people on this earth who truly value you and your work (the gold play button on your wall always brings a smile to my face as a concete reminder that this message is getting out there!). The countless people who comment that they have “crossed over” because of your work... Talk about ripples becoming a tidal wave, hey? The importance of what you do cannot be underestimated. Thank you 🙏 PS apologies for the clickbait-y title and thumbnail 😂

[@zakgeorge]

@@k9conceptsdogtrainingI’m just happy to be able to do what I love❤ thank you.

[@jhomabangis3660]

Zach just show your videos on how to handle aggressive dogs that are on the berge to be put down. You are just talking and talking and love to show yourself in videos not the actual method of how you can solve dog behavioral issues. Show us your method not just talking, envy is killing you...

[@jerrymolet]

Great job!

[@clarencedavis1]

He went after The Dog Daddy in a way that is completely unnecessary. And he used small klips, showing the beginning of his training, the part where the animal was at it's most aggressive state where hard correction was most needed. Had he not used some kind of intervention he'd been chewed on. In the end a happy dog and owner.

[@swordablaze9259]

In the clips I've seen, Dog Daddy caused the aggressive behaviour in the moment, or escalated it. What Zak and Natalie are explaining is that it's not necessary. You don't attempt to beat the aggression out of the dog because that can create a ticking time bomb with a dog taught not to give warnings - instead of growling first to show it's building up, it just attacks. The science and evidence of dog training agrees with Zak, so what he's calling out is animal abuse which is entirely necessary.

[@alexventrov6826]

@@swordablaze9259 You need to go to an optometrist and get your eyes checked then. DD solves problems and helps people with aggressive dogs, while the likes of Zac George have never helped a single person with an aggressive dog in their lives.

[@zsahe21]

@@swordablaze9259 Lol what evidence? Some pieces of paper, or part of the available research? Where are the trained dogs? Zak George is a YT fool who cannot even manage to train his own small dog properly. He should go to one of these other trainers' seminars, trainers he often criticizes, and should train the dogs they work with. I'd love to see it. Here are some good trainers: Ivan Balabanov, Bart Bellon, Tyler Muto, Shield K9, Miracle K9.

[@swordablaze9259]

@@alexventrov6826 Ah, stooping to attempted personal insults to make your point. You clearly have nothing useful to say. I don't need any form of eye test to know that yanking a dog by the neck and provoking it causes aggression. Beat any animal and see how well that works. Of course you won't see Zak dealing with aggressive dogs of this nature. He doesn't provoke them. But since you're clearly fine with what DD does, you must be fine with animal abuse - yes, yanking a dog and carrying it by the neck causing stress and pain is abuse!

[@jasonkay8749]

Loved this video and all the various contexts that were being discussed and debated. These type of videos Natalie are a welcome supplement to the training videos you post and helps us develop a more rounded understanding of why we do what we do and how that is interpreted by the dog using a couple of useful links you put up for reference. I have downloaded those links and plan on incorporating some of the themes in how we take care of Sprite in different situations. Every piece of information you share makes our companionship with Sprite in our family more rewarding and pleasurable for all of us. Thanks again for your dedication and your time contextualising some of the references Zak was making and allowing me to relate to the subject matter.

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I know listening to me rant for 45mins isn't everyone's cup of tea (understandable!) but if just a few find it helpful then job done. Sprite is living proof that kindness, care and patience is transformative even with dogs exhibiting aggressive behaviours. She's a dog we got to "Box 6" with. But working as a team with a range of professionals from different disciplines, looking at the case from the ground up and carefully following the behaviour change plan, it works. It certainly takes a village, but it works.

[@sashamoldenhauer899]

A dog undergoing training in force free approach is no better than a dog that hasn't had any training. The force free community have done very little to come up with truly non embarrassing alternatives and the aversive trainers glee to their relative success. Positive Reinforcement works! But force free trainers are doing absolutely nothing to demonstrate the efficacy of the training approach.

[@OldDogNewTricksAustralia]

Plenty of FF trainers winning dog sports. What else would persuade you?

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

My experience has been the same Doyle - lots of success without using force! All mine and my clients dogs are trained with fun games, they're a joy to live with, they're amazing demo/stooge dogs and one is training to become an assistance dog. It's a shame that others' experiences with force free training have been different to mine. I hope my videos can at least show those with a different learning history what's possible 😊

[@dp5965]

There is an excellent FF (if you want to call it that) trainer named Jo-Rosie Haffenden, who in an interview with Ivan Balabanov, says that training without any negative reinforcement or aversives would be like telling a human they can talk but not use vowels. It's part of our language and it's part of dog language. But I know what you mean by "is no better than..." and I will take that a step further and say the dogs will likely be worse than dogs without any training. It's because pet owners hear "positive and rewards and science" and end up with a purely permissive approach (and spoiled, confused and aggressive dogs), by doing what they heard was the right thing. It is because the so-called movement is led by people who just spew some words and don't train dogs (vet techs, vet tech students and clickbaiters like ZG). They fail to mention that 99% of all modern day training is done without any aversive tools and with positive reinforcement (reward based) as the backbone. That includes all the good "balanced trainers" as well. (but excludes the ones who are just trying to sell tools, those are no different than the ones just trying to sell dog treats, aka ZG).

[@Arewal851]

@@OldDogNewTricksAustralia That would depend how you define "force". ALL DOGS (regardless of where you draw the line in the sand), are forced to live with the wrong species and be tethered to them if they want to go anywhere. ALL DOGS are forced to stay with whoever stole them from their litter, ie: "purchased" or "adopted" them (Unless they live in places like Mexico, where dogs have homes but live like cats, can run away to new home, or join a "homeless" pack). MANY DOGS are forced to undergo hours and hours of repetitions of adhering to a specific regimen (if they want to get fed) until it is a habit. SOME DOGS are treated how dogs treat each other, often resulting in a kind of clarity that helps them avoid the gas chamber. MOST DOGS, 9 out of 10, are relinquished for having dog-like behaviour (barking, growling, biting, peeing just around the corner from where it sleeps etc). Lastly I would like to say how absurd ZG speech really was. Suggesting that within the animal kingdom, that no animals communicate with positive and negative (physical and otherwise) "punishment" is the most uninformed thing he has said to date.They ALL do it ALL the time! I don't for the life of me understand how this girl changed what he said to make it sound like he wasn't just blowing smoke out his A**.

[@OldDogNewTricksAustralia]

@@Arewal851 For the purpose of this kind of discussion, force free is generally understood to mean avoiding the use of punishment and aversive tools. My own dogs freely choose to be with me, generally more often than I actually want them to be with me. Apart from tethering them to me for their own safety in some public places, having gates to keep them safe from the highway, and the obligatory visits to the vet, there is very little of what you call force in our relationship. My dogs come when called and seek me out as a safe base in times of uncertainty. It is a mutually rewarding way of life which I highly recommend.

[@fikadogs4555]

"If we're not measuring things like welfare, we're not going to find any information because we're not looking for it." SO TRUE!! Love this video Nat and so appreciative @Zakgeorge is open to this conversation!

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Right? Constructive discussion done right!

[@joannathatcares]

​@@k9conceptsdogtrainingwhere is that discussion with other trainers? Any podcast, video?

[@jeffreyH360]

Awesome podcast thank you. I asked Susan Garrett to reach out to you, I would love to see work with her students.

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

She is AMAZING. Her evolution has been so inspiring 😊

[@DF-te2vm]

Very impressed with your credentials

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

I really appreciate the comment and support, thank you 🙏 😊

[@kimba8953]

"and they don't want to hurt their dog" wow

[@susagor]

Yes!! -- for Tom Mitchell of Behavet Veterinary. And, also to his and Lauren Langman's Absolute Dogs company, web, YT, online courses; DVD products; TickTok, etc. I received my Pro Dog Trainer Certificate last year. This year, I'm skipping Geek, but plan to do this course next year.

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Oh you will LOVE Geek! I honestly think it is one of the best programs out there. The science is rock-solid but it's communicated in a way that is so accessible. Love love love

[@susagor]

@@k9conceptsdogtraining Thank you for your thoughts on Geek!! * * Keep up your great work! [no reply necessary]

[@michelewood925]

I’d love to fix my dogs reactivity with positive only but I haven’t had any luck even getting her to walk down the street. The general public wouldn’t have the time to spend all day every day working on the dog. Friends and family visit, the dog suffers when they go nowhere. I have not seen one ff person rehab an aggressive dog.

[@lrose1046]

Talk talk talk talk...

[@gregcarrick4785]

His scientific data is so flimsy that it is useless.

[@getacalmdog]

After a social media sabbatical, I only just saw that you had suggested my Reactivity/Aggression Playlist. That was very kind of you. Thank you for thinking of me. Sending you love.

[@cherylmillard2067]

LOL, ZAK non-judgmental, sure when hell freezes over solid.

[@Haupialani]

You have any videos training a pitbull or rottweiler? I'd like to see your method of training them and having the training remain in the dog and the owner.

[@dpaperin]

Of course not!! He thinks he knows all!

[@gretasimmons8987]

It’s interesting that the dog industry is changing and discussing new ideas and concepts! And the horse industry seems slowly shifting as well, it should let go of some of the old ideas too ! We all grow in some form or another! And not be so dogmatic 🤣🤣about ideas 💡 ( pun intended lol) what a wonderful video , thanks! 👍

[@OffGridDogs]

ZG respected trainer hahahahaha

[@susagor]

Thank you for your informative video. I just subscribed. You will be among Zak George, Tom Mitchell, Laura Langman, Absolute Dogs, Laura Donaldson, Susan Garrett, Kikopup, R+ Dogs, Spirit Dog Training, Denise Fenzi and her Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, Grisha Stewart, DogsFirst .. and the many, earlier positive Dog Trainers!

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Literally tears in my eyes reading this ❤️ THANK YOU 🙏

[@alexventrov6826]

Yep, a long list of "trainers" that have never worked with an aggressive dog in their lives.

[@clutz509]

​@@alexventrov6826 oh? You know this for sure?

[@peterschmidt7409]

The big dog training crisis, huh? Well, never was more information available than in our time on dog training. The problem today is to separate the good training from the bullshit. In this matters, i throw Mr. Zak George right out of the window, the man couldn't train a plant to grow up a wall, for his life. Now look at the igp world championship, most difficult dog sport there is. Look at them ten years ago and now. You will see, dog sports and training evolved quite a lot in this time. Now ask how this was done. It is much positive treatment with some amount of pressure. I've read everything about positive only, back in the nineties, and was like a religious converted. Little did i know that positive only cannot work. I thought i am the one that is not good enough. But i had reliable dogs before, so after a while of try and error i dived in to the old studies of Pavlov and Skinner. It stand right there that you need all four quadrants to learn, no matter what creature you are. It's just the dosis that varies from case to case.

[@looseyfur74]

Zerk gorge is lols

[@dogsrgodsspelledbackwards3340]

Agee, Natalie. You sound so much like Dr. Ian Dunbar. He studied dogs for yrs. Dunbar Academy has great resources. You have the background, the knowledge and I think YOU would be awesome to sit down with Dog daddy and give him more knowledge than he has now. I feel sad for him as he just might be a fantastic person to be to turn around his training. This is long term affects on these dogs, not just a few minutes of physical , clicks of a post that is the best interest in the dogs future. Teaching people how to teach a dog behaviours to have, or not have is the goal. You, Natalie are so on the mark. Thank you for posting. Susan Garrett speaks very much like you as well. Background to back skills , knowledge. Period. Same with Dr. Tom Mitchell in the UK. So many trainers, vet behaviouralists out there who have the background to know what they’re talking about. Dog Daddy is worried that someone might be able to stop him in his blabbering on about his methods as they know what they know. And DD needs that. Thanks

[@michelewood925]

He’s wrong, in nature many animals learn not to do things by being corrected. Either by their mother, other family members or even enemies. Make a mistake and you could be not just corrected but ended.

[@JHall-jo9rm]

I've been doing rescue for over 20 years. I 100% agree with Zak's perspective.

[@gregcarrick4785]

This guy never trained a large aggressive dog. He did a video where he accomplished nothing to the extent that I believe him to be a scam. Prove me wrong with a video.

[@fazer215]

sorry stoped at zak george

[@k9conceptsdogtraining]

Thanks for the comment!

[@ColorfulBallerina]

Me too. He's rude to people who disagree with him and his methods did not work for my dog. Also, you're never going to see him do rattle snake training on a dog because his methods don't work.

[@dp5965]

@@ColorfulBallerina Yeah but you are also never going to see him train an actual dog either. Not sure what you mean by "his methods". He just talks about methods and sells dog products. He doesn't show any real training. The methods may work just fine.....but you have to watch a dog trainer who has done them, do them.

[@gregcarrick4785]

SHOW US YOUR VIDEO

[@michelewood925]

He’s wrong, in nature many animals learn not to do things by being corrected. Either by their mother, other family members or even enemies. Make a mistake and you could be not just corrected but ended.