Dolby Atmos - Surround sound on headphones ?!?

Apple have added Spacial Audio features to Apple Music, including the ability to stream and listen to Dolby Atmos surround mixes - even when you're listening on headphones or earbuds. But does that make any sense ? And how does it work ?
productionadvice.co.uk/atmos-...

[@Dani-El.]

The side to side binaural replication is good on headphones, but I'm honestly not feeling the height or front/back. That's the same with my binaural microphone, so I can't really complain. Although I was expecting a bit more witchcraft.

[@officialWWM]

Yep, it’s pretty much nonsense for music production. One of the stupidest ideas since Beta video tape..

[@soundproductionandadvice]

Thanks again, Ian. I say again as your audiomovers tutorial was incredibly useful for me and I dare say many others. All the best to you.

[@Cometer]

Great demo. The main thing I notice with binaural recording or atmos with headphones when listening to music is that my brain tells me the sound is coming from one place but as there is no visual cue there is a certain disconnect until you get used to it. Once you do, everything clicks and you don't want to go back. In video games, specially in VR, binaural or atmos work wonderfully because you get that connection. One thing I often questioned is why do we need to enable spatial audio or Dolby Atmos for Headphones? After all that binaural information could just be recorded in the file and played appropriately. But after testing it I finally understand. You get the surround effect even if Dolby Atmos for Headphones or spatial audio is disabled. But if you enable those options in Windows or iOS the surround perception is increased and you can pinpoint the movement of sound more accurately. I tried in this video on Windows and although the surround effect was noticeable with Dolby Atmos for Headphones disconnected, it became a lot more convincing when I enabled Dolby Atmos for Headphones.

[@skipb119]

Excellent demonstration! Thank you.

[@mattstaples]

Really interesting. With the initial bass track I was less aware of front back but once height came in that became more obvious. The reverb track panning in the full mix made a lot of sense spacially. Fun times, although it may be some time before I can install enough speakers to mix a full atmos mix in my garage!

[@Gunz4President]

Super informative, this is really next level engineering. Thank you brother.

[@aleejacopo]

Thank you so much, I really wanted to understand this a bit more.

[@carlostahin4736]

Best explanation about surround sound on headphones.

[@Abheek]

Thank you for this detailed video. Now that Apple has included spatial mixing in Logic Pro 10.7, request you to help us with some understanding on the mixing and mastering process for a song.

[@allanwilson8878]

I’m really surprised how well this worked for me. Thanks for the video. Very interesting.

[@ProductionAdvice]

Pleasure - likewise !

[@RecordingStudioRockstars]

Great example with the acoustic guitar! First I listened on my Adam Audio S Logic headphones which were pretty convincing. When the image is centered I can't tell the difference between back and front but for most of the panning, it's fairly convincing. Then I listened on Apple Airpods and was surprised how well those translated too. Dystopian future aside, lol, I am looking forward to the tech where Apple will scan your head and the imaging will custom match to your own ears. I think eventually it will sound indistinguishable from recording with an actual binaural microphone. We will probably be able to set the imaging and distances ourselves until it sounds good to our own ears just like setting an eq on the stereo.

[@ProductionAdvice]

I agree, especially about personalised HRTF information improving the binaural results 👍

[@thelongplaylp]

Behind & above worked pretty well for me. Not uncannily well, but also it was very natural sounding (not weirdly phase-y or anything) so that's a plus in my book. Pretty cool!

[@lastpedestrian]

I apologize if this has been brought up already: It seems to me that the HRTF would work much better if one added "room" information as part of mixing. I.e., when we hear a sound source in binaural move "upward", would we not also hope to hear our reverb of the "ceiling" (wherever that is) change as the sound moves up? With the acoustic guitar demo, I found myself having to "guess" if a sound was moving behind me or in front of me. Wouldn't that experience be a whole lot easier to simply perceive if the guitar had a reverb on it that shifted correspondingly? I've not listened to any commercial mixes with binaural Atmos decoding, so I don't know if this is being done or not. Thanks Ian, as always, for a very informative video!

[@antonfarmer6317]

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us Ian, for me there is some subtle but definite change in the way I perceive the sound with Atmos Do I like it? You bet I do, it just sounds cleaner and more immediate some how More present maybe ….

[@CasualSon]

Not sure how well it works tbh. But very interesting video and I’m probably going to get an Apple TV box to test this out since I’m already paying for the service for various bundling reasons. Maybe the vision part will help. A bit like the experience of tasting food required sight and smell to get the full experience. I’m not suggesting smelly vision but I bet the vision part of sound makes a big difference. Probably why I enjoy watching music performance. Good job, I will stay tuned for further episodes.

[@user-ds5jd5zy2d]

I really enjoyed what you did since 8:09 :D I wish that the sound thats behind sounded more like it, but hey - we are speaking about stereo speakers in headphones ;)

[@lancelotkamaka2563]

I am a big fan of binaural audio recordings as well. I just wish there were movies with this kind of audio. If there are more of these I will subscribe to this channel.

[@sonicart1808]

Brilliantly explained thanks!

[@dabbitaylor3544]

Very informative ! Thanks

[@edwardnixon1782]

I like the question about Ambisonics. Not least because it's open and by and large free. It would be useful to have some information of the "compare/contrast" sort prior to getting into full court press for Apple.

[@JayFolipurba]

I was looking for if atmos headphones exist, but mine are 5.1, I think, and I can hear all the directions pretty well. And I've always enjoyed listening to music on headphones, even my old samsung in-ears that came with my C3050, because I liked tracing the different instruments in space around me.

[@xmstudio9147]

Hello, congratulations on your video, I would like to know: I have a Symphony Mk II Thunderbolt sound card, Dante configured with system control monitor 5.1, 7.1 and above, is it okay to use the avid Dolby Atmos softwere in headphones? or do you need other hardwere ??? Thanks

[@escapetube2770]

Great explanation!!! I’ve created some music myself with these principles in Dolby Atmos: would love to hear your opinion on that. Cheers!

[@colingordon0986]

listening to dolby access on my pc through Tidal On my Audeze headphones and my mind is blown.

[@boxabeatrecordings6309]

Ian, thank you for this very interesting information/explanation. I've been trying to find as much as possible on binaural recordings and monitoring but besides this tutorial and one on Christian Henderson's channel there's very little to find. Kind regards, Patrick Peeters

[@themagicianofsound]

This is incredibly interesting, thanks for sharing !!! 🙏😀 My question: if I am a mastering engineer, what do I need to do / change / adapt in equipment and techniques to master something that is Dolby Atmos compliant, versus what I do today in stereo? Kindest Regards! 😀👋

[@ProductionAdvice]

That's tough, because mastering "as we know it" doesn't exist for an Atmos mix. There's no "stereo output bus" or even "7.1.4 output bus", because the same mix can be played via so many different speaker configurations. So applying global EQ or dynamics processing doesn't make sense in the way that it does for stereo or even traditional surround. The only thing you can do is re-import the Atmos master file, at which point you're effectively stem mixing/mastering, and lots of mixers don't like that. So the answer is, it's complicated ! Watch this space...

[@themagicianofsound]

@@ProductionAdvice Thank you very much for the answer, I truly appreciate that you took of your precious time for it ! 🙏😀 I have a strange sensation of "Déjà Vu", I'm feeling like a tape cassette manufacturer hearing for the first time about what is called "CD-ROMs" hahaha... like if my days are counted 😂! Imagine the "small home mixing engineers" not having the proper equipment / setup / technology to mix as "Dolby Atmos" compliant... I guess it means that only a small segment of engineers could do this? So it may (or may not ? ) create a huge gap between the rich engineers who can afford getting what is needed to make and validate these mixes versus the poor engineers who cannot afford these investments... am I right ? I am guessing too that it is a threat to platforms like LANDR who are made for stereo mastering... I don't know if I'm wrong but I see this as a total revolution, like a real giant tsunami that will "hit" the industry faster and stronger than what we think because all artists and labels will want their Dolby Atmos compliant music on Apple Music if the competition does it... Fun and exciting to watch this coming, but scary at the same time!

[@djlajci]

@@themagicianofsound kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHKyZWuVd5p6f6M

[@File_03]

wow this just helped so much

[@File_03]

it sounds So NICE

[@davidwillis8112]

I recently just started experiencing it on my earphones and phone. Granted I know I'm not necessarily gonna get the full experience as I would if I went to a theater. That being said I am impressed with how crisp and clear it sounds

[@PatrickSchouten]

Thanks for sharing Ian. I think mixing music this way will be done different because you are panning individual instrument channels. This will eliminate the use of group channels. Or am I wrong?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Not necessarily - I'm still using groups in my example mix, for example the drums are all routed to a single group which is then defined as a stereo object for the surround panner

[@richardsisk1770]

Your explanation is brilliant. I am experimenting with a Sennheiser Ambeo mic and want to edit in Dolby Atmos. I have Davinci Resolve Studio and hope there may be the possibility of using the Apple ProMax headphones to monitor. Thank you Ian. I subscribed!

[@ProductionAdvice]

Glad it was helpful!

[@mohammedashfaq3734]

Can you get surround sound on Samsung Galaxy Tab S8 because I buy the relevant handset.

[@richardsisk1770]

@@mohammedashfaq3734 sorry my friend. I do not know the answer.

[@nunyabizfam106]

I would love to hear your take on mastering for atmos, especially seeing when a track is converted to an "object" they are no longer sent to the master track when is set as the"bed".

[@nunyabizfam106]

Side note: Since you can't limit the output in the traditional way, How can we guarantee the TP spec required by the platforms it is released on?

[@buwek]

And those 3D mixes for headphones are still working on normal stereo speakers?

[@IvanJoel]

I figured out from this video I had my speaker left and right cables crossed.

[@isaacsnowhite104]

Pretty impressive

[@mttrashcan-bg1ro]

One thing I've noticed after using Dolby Atmos for headphones again, I bought it a while back when I was using I think my Sennheiser HD58X Jubilee in 2020, and I've changed headphones twice since, to significantly better ones, and also upgraded my amplifier and DAC, the more I upgrade my gear, the less I notice Dolby Atmos for headphones changing anything, it definitely did on my first audio setup in 2020, but I don't remember it doing much on the Hifiman Sundara and it literally does nothing on my Focal Clear MG, it's off and I can hear stuff moving just fine, I turn it on and nothing changes, it just drops the sample rate to 48khz from 192khz. Makes me think that on more premium/professional gear it doesn't work and on more entry-level equipment it fakes it.

[@chris-rb7bm]

next thing fr someone to design is a set of headphones with loads of mini speakers (in a hat!) angled at different angles off from the ear I listened to this on headphones HD650's and I could get the vibe of it moving around me but I found when you raised it too the ceiling speakers I couldn't detect that with my earphones (me, obviously) and also the corners was lost as you went around in the circle. Pretty crazy technology. I think its sensible to get a Dante sound card next! maybe rme danteface.

[@587583922]

Came back to this after hearing the recent mastering show on atmos. Yeah…doesn’t work for me at all. It just sounds like normal panning with some filtering for me. I’m very aware of HRTF in general, and I use CanOpener when I listen to headphones with my computer. I’m a huge fan. But, it’s the only HRTF crossfeed I’ve tried that works for me. It passes LEDR. Nothing else does.

[@chillingFriend]

Do you think these 3D mixes are the future and eventually will substitue normal stereo mixes? Cheers!

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

I think it's only a matter of time. Sony PS5 also offers binaural 3D audio in new games. To me it feels like audio evolution and the 3rd dimension makes it complete. I would recommend trying DearVR (Plugin Alliance) as well.

[@asmundma]

How can you use Logics for this, it has not the number of channels on busses to do Atmos. Or is all done in the Dolby Atmos renderer ? and then mix back to binaural in Logic. I use Nuendo which has this built in.

[@MusicTechExplained]

A DAW uses 128 audio channels to send to the Dolby Atmos Renderer. With the Dolby Atmos Production Suite, you can run the DAW and the Renderer on the same computer, and the audio is transferred with the Dolby Audio Bridge, a 128 channel Virtual Audio Device. The only limitation in Logic Pro is that its surround channels are limited to 5.1, so it only can utilize a 5.1 Bed when routed to the Renderer.

[@asmundma]

@@MusicTechExplained thanks for explaining that setup.

[@PJZombie]

I have followed 3D spacial sound over 2 channels for many many years. I have tried many Headsets and even Dolby Atmos and DTS for headphones, hell i even tried Headsets such as Zalman 5.1 which has multiple real speakers per Ear with multiple 3.5mm jacks for each channell and for the life of me i just cannot hear rear or above sounds from TWO Ears. The sounds go from front to centre and then stay there with zero sensation of moving behind me. I however have a physical Dolby Atmos surround Amp for my regular audio entertainment and have never had any trouble hearing sounds travel behind me or above on physical speakers. Just no success using headsets......... I really wish it worked for me!!

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

maybe a stupid question, sorry.. :) In which format do you render the video to play the binaural "stereo" track as 3D sound? a few months ago i tried it on youtube and instagram and both times it sounded as if the algorithm made a normal stereo file out of it. :(

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

​@@ProductionAdvice thanks for advice. The thing is, when I mix with Dearvr and headphones, I hear the height dimension as well as the sound behind me left and right. Traditional stereo has only played front left / right and that's exactly what I got when I uploaded my binaural stereo file including video. As if everything that was placed in the back was cut away. I thought it might have something to do with the codec or video format, I'll try it again soon, maybe something has changed with the algorithms in the meantime. Instagram was horrible, everything behind me was gone and in return I got plenty of artifacts. :(

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

@@ProductionAdvice as long as the bounce was on my computer, everything was okay. no matter whether as 320 mp3 or 24 bit aiff. but it's been a long time, I'm trying again right now..finger crossed. thanks again for your help, very good advices :)

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

Now it works ... :) I didn't do much differently than last year, except generally to level myself to around -14 DB LUFS. (think I had it louder last year) I'll try it again on Instagram too. Next time I try again before I ask. :D I look forward to your following videos on 3D audio. Many thanks in advance

[@MatLeChat77sPlaceInSpace]

Yes, KZbin works now. Instagram still sounds horrible. Going to try tiktok tomorrow

[@stevenm936]

I’m watching your KZbin with an iPad and a pair of earbuds. There’s no Atmos renderer in this flow. How would I hear front bock or height in this ? I can’t convince myself that I hear it. Or is everyone just imagining it?

[@ProductionAdvice]

The binaural version was being made in the output of the Atmos Renderer, on my machine as I played it. So I captured the binaural stream, which will work for you (or not!) without special hardware. Some of the subtle stuff is probably being lost in the KZbin stream, but I still get a good impression of "behind" and "height", personally. With hindsight I should have disabled the render at some point in this video so you can compare a straight left-right pan with the binaural version - maybe I should do a follow-up. The success of this is a very personal thing, though, so your mileage will vary.

[@capoman1]

I think binaural is cool as a demo. But he "trickery" going on is just fancy eq and gain. So with the acoustic guitar example you could hear the object "move" when it was in motion. But if you just left it in the rear for example, you'd just have an eq'd acoustic guitar in headphones, you wouldn't feel the guitarist was sitting behind you.

[@DrGamelove]

I always wondered how that worked! Is this an evolution of the same concept used for old audio book cassettes that claimed to have 3D sound on headphones? I only remember Stephen King’s The Mist but I’m sure there are others.

[@ProductionAdvice]

Yes, it's effectively a realtime simulation using the same techniques. Binaural used to be done with custom mics, then things like Q-Sound emulated it, now it's part of the Atmos equation

[@DrGamelove]

I’ll still take a dedicated system and proper surround speakers any day but since my tuner took out a couple weeks ago it’s been mostly atmos on headphones or my garbage TV speakers. You can really get spoiled on good sound.

[@wright96d]

I've found with a lot of Atmos mixes, the vocals are in both the left and right channels, and the center channel is practically barren. Is that a creative decision or is there a hidden setting people aren't turning on?

[@Wourghk]

That's typical of lazy upmixing.

[@wright96d]

@@Wourghk I don't doubt that, but I've heard some great Atmos mixes that are still great dispite that one oversight.

[@ProductionAdvice]

@@wright96d It's something I used to do in 5.1, because so many people have a poor (or poorly setup) centre speaker. The vocal is crucial to most music, and needs to be in the middle of the image, so rather than run the risk of the centre speaker being small, off to one side or even underneath the TV, I would choose to put the vocals in the left & right channels instead. It'll sound the same if things are setup well, and better if they aren't. Some people even choose to mix in 4.0 for the same reason... Atmos systems may be better specced and setup (and are often supposed to auto-calibrate) than older 5.1, but my guess is there's similar thinking going on in the releases you're talking about. Or, they're re-purposed 5.1 mixes where the same choice was made.

[@wright96d]

@@ProductionAdvice I couldn't disagree more. A phantom center never ever sounds as good as a proper center. Even moreso in a cheap set-up. L/R speakers in HTIB sets just aren't powerful enough to create a decent phantom center. And the center speaker is usually just a tiny bit better anyways. Also, I think you're possibly overestimating the amount of people with poorly setup surround systems. Anyone who goes through the trouble of buying one these days is probably going to take the time to do it right, even if it's a HTIB. And really, even if you're right, you shouldn't be mastering for the lowest common denominator when it comes to surround mixes. That's what Disney did with their Atmos mixes for years (they still might, I'm not sure), pissing off a bunch of home theater enthusiasts in the process.

[@ProductionAdvice]

Fair enough, you’re welcome to disagree. In a decent system all the speakers will be equivalent, so there should be literally no difference. (In my old studio people often assumed the center speaker was active even when I was playing stereo audio, the phantom center was so good) In theatres, the center speaker is necessary to pin the dialogue to the right physical location simply because of the size of the venues and where people might sit. In a home system, that’s far less significant. Either way, you asked why and I think that’s the reason, whether you agree or not is up to you.

[@RonnieVaiArovo]

So interesting, Is this the future of mixing and listening to music?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Time will tell...

[@RubenKelevra]

Well, the panning around was 0% convincing that the source was moving around. It sounded like someone was panning it just left and right in loudness and the sound "changed" a bit in character. But there was zero depth forward and backwards for me. The panning over the top was like 5% there... it felt for a second like it was moving up until my brain understood was going on and the effect felt flat on its face. Strange, but maybe we can create profiles for our ears and process the data differently for each person? 🤔

[@MrInfoPhilly]

Its technically the same as watching a screen, you either allow yourself to see it in 3d for depth on tv, or look at it as a flat 2d picture. Your brain can Interpret it either way

[@damienribot1143]

"It's the mountain that gives birth to a mouse" as we say in France. 😉 It reminds me 3D films in the 80s and 10s. Wait and see...

[@PantaFlux]

For some reason (maybe my age) I’m sort of convinced that this will become a huge success story just like 3D TV. 😈 Although I must admit I see some benefits for radio plays or audio books.

[@ProductionAdvice]

You could well be right 😛

[@emotionblur7214]

WIth my normal pair of headphones with a decent frequency response, I hear all monodimensional (left to right)... Not much different (if any) with my monitor headphones. Well, now I'll have to mix with atmos in order to submit to apple music, and... wish me luck :/

[@IllSoulProductions]

How did you get atmos on Logic Pro?!?!

[@ProductionAdvice]

Instructions from Dolby: learning.dolby.com/hc/en-us/articles/360055006891-Module-11-4-Dolby-Atmos-Using-Apple-Logic-Pro-

[@IllSoulProductions]

@@ProductionAdvice now to see if I can get it working on windows with Reaper 😁🙏🏿

[@fabricioaf89]

It's funny, it doesn't really sound like it's above me but it's like the sound is passing through my head 😄

[@brendanandcheryl]

can't wait to listen to Quadrophenia...

[@OMGWTFLOLSMH]

It sounds good, but I'd like to hear an Atmos movie with all the special effects, like a plane going overhead, etc., to determine how realistic it sounds compared to an Atmos home theatre.

[@rajendrabiswas]

Can AirPod do Atmos

[@ProductionAdvice]

They can do the binaural emulation, yes. But not true multi-speaker playback, of course

[@evilmarc]

I feel like HRTF on headphones has a higher potential ceiling for quality, depth and dymanics than any speakers.

[@writammusic]

Seemed like panning from left to right on my headphones.

[@infinito8130]

Su naturaleza es ser envolvente

[@marianfedorco8521]

The demo would have worked, if youtube had added dolby atmos sound. Since it streams only stereo, we cant hear the depth

[@ProductionAdvice]

Actually you can, the Dolby Renderer creates the binaural stereo for you, which is compatible with any headphones, without needing support by KZbin. The KZbin codec does mess up the finer details a little, but you can get the general idea. Obviously the better the headphones the better, and the effectiveness of the results varies from person to person.

[@YTRopp]

For me the rear is surprisingly convincing. The front is not. The mid-left/right sounds a bit too loud. The height is noticable but not very convincing.

[@MikeBrayton]

Hmm, I didn't find it particularly convincing. The front to back and height differences were subtle, as they should be, and of course are, so sure, I could imagine that I'm in a 3D space, but it certainly wasn't a true 3D virtual experience. This is the same experience I have with the Waves NX room emulation stuff without the bluetooth headtracker. You get the experience of the room acoustics, which to my ears just makes the music sound less focused, and less good :) .... in headphones.... But when you put the headtracker on, ahhh, that's when the magic happens. You are indeed in a 3D virtual space then, moving your head around, experiencing sounds changing where they are coming from based on your head position. In fact, it is so convincing, that the first time I tried it, at 2 a.m. one night, with housemates sleeping nearby, I literally panicked that I was actually hearing audio blasting out of my monitors in the room, and scrambled to find the stop button. So, the subtle differences between sounds coming from, say, directly in front of you vs. directly behind you, without the headtracker, simply just seem like subtle EQ differences. Sure, the EQ is different when it's behind you, and in a very specific way, but it's still just an EQ difference that a stereo mix could have... and that's what I experienced here. I'd be interested to hear a mix with 5 instruments, each positioned at a specific point in the 3D space to make it feel like I'm literally sitting in with the band. That might be more convincing. And perhaps there are even better examples I could listen to.

[@NelemNaru]

What's the point of a headtracker when your head is still and staring at a screen while watching a movie or playing a game?

[@MikeBrayton]

@@NelemNaru It's a good point. The experience feels different though. Without the headtracker, it still feels like a simulation, but it still feels "good enough". With the headtracker, though, it just feels 99.6% real, which is ultra cool. Your head does in fact move, quite a bit, just in more subtle ways.

[@NelemNaru]

@@MikeBrayton Oh, I see. Thanks!

[@9hundred67]

It's pretty cool that you can make a mix in Atmos, but it really doesn't make any difference on headphones with the height information.

[@ProductionAdvice]

I can see why you would say that but actually it's quite different to a straight pan. I regret not putting a comparison of the "height" pan with a straight stereo pan, so people could hear this more clearly. Maybe time for another video...

[@9hundred67]

@@ProductionAdvice I would love to hear the direct comparison. I bought the license for Atmos headphones on PC and cannot tell the difference in Atmos coded movies.

[@arwo1143]

I’m watching this on an IPad Pro It’s funny how stereo sound sometimes comes across better on IT without headphones than when I’m on my PC Something about my computer audio must be really fucked

[@asmundma]

Beware that Doblby Atmos Audio is a proprietary format. MPEG-H (Fraunhofer) and Ambisonics is not as far as I know. I have researched this a bit, but it still it unclear if you need to buy expensive production software to generate a final renderer to stream. (I know about masterfile that can be created and that's probably the input to an expensive render software from Dolby). Further on, you have to have hardware device to decode to your speaker-setup. This is not much written about - and its a shame. Of course you can down mix to either 7.2.4 or binaural, but then you need several delivery formats. Would be nice if you guys explain this more.

[@ProductionAdvice]

Valid points, maybe I'll go into more detail in future if there's enough interest. The difference with Atmos is the support on Apple devices though, which could be a game-changer. Whether that's a good thing is a matter of opinion, of course.

[@asmundma]

@@ProductionAdvice Not a big issue for me actually, I am a Mac(OS) fan.

[@ibits9527]

Based on this, I don't think it works very well, especially the elevation. The rear sounds wonky too. Cool idea though.

[@wintermoonomen]

The masses (headphones) is just not ready for this simply because the cost of a decent headphoneis pricey in itself. Then the standards in recording Atmos (studio production ) varies and can range from really sucking to a ok. Maybe once they start making affordable true 7.1.4 atmos ready headphones and a standard in studio recording we might have something. Till then Ill stick with my gaming headphones.

[@irmadisimone2963]

home theater with well mixed content yes, headphones nada

[@ProductionAdvice]

I understand you scepticism, but I’ve been hearing some great-sounding Atmos music, even on headphones. The new Billie Eilish album for example sounds excellent, so does St Vincent

[@drinkinslim]

Thanks for this video. :) From what I understand, Dolby Atmos needs specific hardware and software to make the audio AND specific hardware and software to reproduce it. So it could potentially die an early death if consumers don't want to buy into it. If it becomes mainly an Apple thing, well, then it's limited to Apple fan-boys and -girls ;) And, from what I've seen so far, you need to own specific earbuds or headphones. Hopefully these are "early days" and they'll open it up to more people via software. Surely, for example, it could be made to run as a VST so anyone could produce Dolby Atmos tracks in any of the main DAWs and, hopefully, software for laptops and desktops to allow is to use any headphones on any of the main OSes. We shall see.

[@ProductionAdvice]

Head-tracking requires specific headphones, but otherwise all you need is the right Dolby format decoder. But yes I agree, it'll be interesting to see how/if this catches on, and where it goes from here.

[@davethestalker]

A handful of the Apple Music Atmos mixes are HORRIBLE in both my home theater and headphones. Quality control standards need to be in place either on the mixing side or on Apple’s end. It’s downright embarrassing that Rush Atmos mixes sounds so bad!

[@ProductionAdvice]

I haven’t heard the Rush mixes but I agree that the results vary a lot

[@jgonzalez2005]

This takes me to the eighties, Holophonics, created by Hugo Zucarelli and used by Pink Floyd (The Final Cut) and Roger Waters (Pros and Cons of Hitckhicking), that system was really good if you used headphones, something that their label failed to market adequately as is well documented. Holophonics works better than the example of this video, in my very humble opinion.

[@ProductionAdvice]

I hadn't heard of holophonics but I love the "immersive" audio clips on those albums (and The Wall, I think ?). I'm pretty sure they were simply "real" binaural recordings, though, ie. made with a dummy head and mics placed in the ears. That's always going to be more effective than a software emulation - right now, at least.

[@jgonzalez2005]

@@ProductionAdvice As I mentioned before, Holophonics system was only used in The Final Cut and Pros and Cons of Hitckhicking, it was not used in The Wall. And it is exactly as you describe it, a dummy head (called "Ringo" in The Final Cut sessions) and mics in the ears. There is a printed marketing piece made by Columbia where they explained the Holophonics system but they forgot to mention the need for headphones. Apparently the relations between Zucarelli and Waters did not end well, very strong personalities, Zucarelli did not have kind words towards Waters and Waters then preferred to use the "Q Sound" system in his next work.

[@capoman1]

I don't see the need for this in music. We've had surround forever and NOT ONCE did surround music take off. We had dvd audio and sacd, these never took off. And earbuds and bt speakers are where most music is played now. So the engineer would got to ALL THIS TROUBLE to program object locations or multichannel, and like 12 people in the country will actually hear these discrete channels, the other 200 million will be on earbuds or car speakers or bt speakers, many bt speakers are even mono.

[@dobythedog]

Front and behind sound exactly the same on headphones. It's no different to stereo on headphones whatsoever. I think this is a case of the Emperor's new clothes. People convince themselves they are hearing spacial movement up and down and behind, but it's just stereo.

[@sonnyblu6299]

Quite a bit of Latency going on here.

[@izdrug000]

As for the loudness wars, it seemes to me that Atmos mixes are much more dynamic because of three reasons: First, loudness and density of the mix are not needed to make the sound impressive. The impression is reached in the other way: via spaciousness. Second, there is no convention on "how should Metallica sound like in surround". Thus no typical approaches and no mixing habits that drive an engineer to put an excessive limiter. Third, the limiter's distortion have not (yet?) become a part of the typical sound of whole genres, as happened with pop, EDM and rock during the loudness wars.

[@ProductionAdvice]

I agree about point 1, but I'm not sure about 2 & 3. We already have expectations for bands and genres based on the way they sound in stereo, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to think we would expect the same thing in surround, to me. It's an interesting topic, as hopefully I'll show in my next video...

[@bywhite7]

Why are many of the replies here invisible? The "show reply" reveals nothing. And the "hide reply" hides nothing.

[@ProductionAdvice]

I'm not seeing that...

[@themagicianofsound]

@@ProductionAdvice I am also having this problem at some places, many of your replies, Ian, are invisible. I just see the part of the conversation of the other person so I see his questions and his replies but not your answers. An example is the message of "PlaceInSpace " that starts with "maybe a stupid question, sorry.. :) ", I do not see any of your answers in the discussion.

[@ProductionAdvice]

That’s weird, let me check

[@andysorenson3394]

Maybe the replies are panned to the speaker that's not hooked up... surround is complex.

[@bywhite7]

@@andysorenson3394 Only a little complex. You seem simple though; very simple.

[@HISPEEDLEVEL]

Atmos on headphones is fake. Just use good stereo or headphones with more than 2 drivers and usual 5.1. No need to pay atmos subs

[@arnoldwatkins805]

Use better logic. Mixing in general is artificial. I'm sure when stereo was introduced, the old guard probably resisted it as well Some binaural songs are enjoyable, especially The Doors "Riders in the storm"

[@manny_f]

The problem is our heads and ears are all different, so this won't work for everybody.

[@ProductionAdvice]

That's not strictly true - it works for a wide range of people, it just may be more or less effective. And in future, there could be personalised HRTF profiles for each listener, giving you much better results. So I agree it's not perfect now, but there's a ton of potential for the idea.

[@manny_f]

​@@ProductionAdvice Genelec recently released a personalised profile solution, whereby you take photos of your head from specific angle using their companion app, and then it works out the 3D model of your head and uses it to come up with a 1:1 personalised HRTF. The only problem with Genelec's solution is you have to pay a monthly subscription and the pricing is ambitiously high even for most music producers. If some company comes up with a more affordable equivalent I'd be the first to jump on.

[@Niberspace]

unfortunately it's all a scam, they are just adding reverb when something is far away which fakes the feeling. Until they let you somehow add a 3dmodel or pics of your ear this is just lame

[@ProductionAdvice]

I disagree, there is an element of that but they also manipulate phase and timing to achieve the effect, based on psychoacoustic modelling. Also, Apple devices can create a custom HRTF based on a scan of your ears (using the facial recognition camera) and Dolby have something similar in beta, so that aspect is already under development.

[@Niberspace]

Indeed I get the theory of what they are doing next, but until that scan is implemented I call BS (and they've talked about that for so long, PS5 was bragging out how that will be out for PS5 release). But I didn't know that Apple already have that so I will definitely check that out, thanks@@ProductionAdvice

[@jonathanoxlade4252]

I think suround sound on headphones is stupid what have all hifi headphone have in common they are all stereo stop trying to make two drivers sounding like a full surand cinema room if you want that then buy a piss your naibours off better get sound isolation foam aswel because if yoi wanna experience dolby atmos you need a capable dolby atmos amplifer And even then I dount dolby even beats hifi stereo anyway with a better quality dac amp sounds just a good or better if you have a cinema room go dolby atmos if you wanna listen with headphones go hifi get a good pair of beyerdymic headphones and enjoy hifi stereo sound quality note the astros sound like shit without optical port not gonna lie I have the optical out on my tv and using the optical cable through the tv to the base station sounds better than before I think ile probaly get a pair of wired cans get a hdmi optical spliter and use a good quality hifi dac amp for gaming and music