Dominions 5 - Middle Age - National Tier List

[@khankhomrad8855]

Timestamps! 00:00 Introduction 04:16 Abysia, Blood and Fire 06:29 Agartha, Golem Cult 07:40 Arcoscephale, The Old Kingdom 08:24 Ashdod, Reign of the Anakim 09:16 Asphodel, Carrion Woods 10:18 Atlantis, Kings of the Deep 11:00 Bandar Log, Land of the Apes 12:19 Caelum, Reign of the Seraphim 13:01 C'tis, Miasma 14:03 Eriu, Last of the Tuatha 14:53 Ermor, Ashen Empire 16:15 Ind, Magnificent Kingdom of Exalted Virtue 17:45 Jotunheim, Iron Woods 19:49 Machaka, Reign of Sorcerors 22:16 Man, Tower of Avalon 23:34 Marignon, Fiery Justice 25:13 Mictlan, Reign of the Lawgiver 27:36 Na'Ba, Queens of the Desert 28:46 Nazca, Kingdom of the Sun 30:10 Oceania, Mermidons 32:10 Pangaea, Age of Bronze 33:05 Phaeacia, Isle of the Dark Ships 34:20 Phlegra, Deformed Giants 35:55 Pythium, Emerald Empire 36:46 R'lyeh, Fallen Star 37:47 Sceleria, The Reformed Empire 38:55 Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono 40:03 T'ien Ch'i, Imperial Bureaucracy 41:36 Ulm, Forges of Ulm 42:42 Uruk, City States 44:29 Vanarus, Land of the Chuds 45:52 Vanheim, Arrival of Man 46:20 Xibalba, Flooded Caves 48:05 Ys, Morgen Queens

[@SinOfAugust]

“Middle-aged Man is a cool nation.” - I am amused by this line...

[@zorrozalai]

Step 1: We have these 5 tiers. Step 2: Almost every nation is halfway between two tiers.

[@TheMelnTeam]

To be fair you expect more normal nations than outliers, on average. IMO more tier lists should look closer to this if they're not being done just for memes.

[@moleman7632]

One thing I wish that was changed with asphodel was that they should start with Growth 3 in the same way that ermor starts with Death 3. This nation is pretty much worthless without G3 and you have to spend god points just to be functional. Its also the only nation where growth scale is required but you don't get the benefits thereof. If that change alone was made, Asphodel is probably a C tier nation, but as it stands now the nation is much weaker than almost anything it faces on land in the MA.

[@tarsis6123]

What if manikins of all types were sacred? Could you then build a "reasonable" nation to use them when black centaurs are no longer recruitable? I know the manikins will likely still suck. I think you would still need G3 standard, and possibly M3 standard as well to keep the theme Asphodel is going for.

[@Leiska86]

@@tarsis6123 DE turns the dominion from pop kill to +sloth and income penalty instead. It works so much better. A nation that kills its own recruitment never made sense to me.

[@kevinbrown2438]

Asphodel is honestly fine. People just don't like them, which is also fine, but they are not terrible. I mean, they have access to pretty good freespawn chaff AND access to what is universally agreed to be the best recruitable unit in the game period. A nation with access to both of those things, regardless of its drawbacks, cannot be the worst nation in the game.

[@CantusTropus]

@@kevinbrown2438 No, I believe you're wrong. The freespawn chaff isn't awful but it's just mediocre. Black Centaurs are good, yes, but they are effectively a time-limited sacred. After the first year or so, your cap will degrade to the point where you can't realistically buy any significant number of them. And "universally agreed to be the best unit" is hyperbole - yes, White and Black Centaurs are great, no questions asked, but they're not the undisputed #1 Kings of the Sacred Hill (in a game with Vanheres, Helhirdings, and Anakites, that title will always be contested). They *are* great, sure, and you can have a good early expansion, but you fall off incredibly hard in the midgame and things never really improve, because you need to pay lots of Gold for your infrastructure and expensive mages, but your economy is constantly shrinking because of popkill. You need Nature gems for way too many things and your supply will be heavily taxed. If nothing else, listen to the community - if they were just "fine" and not garbage, then you'd expect skilled players to win with them or at least do pretty decently somewhat often, but you simply don't. I've only heard of one (non-modded) game where Asphodel did decently well, and that one had a very skilled player in a Disciples game relying heavily on his partners to protect him from aggression.

[@dannyboy1200]

It seems like you need more tiers, so many nations are "in-between" haha

[@Lasden]

I think Ind should be in B. On a bad map they are C and on a great map they are A. They have extremely efficient sacreds that expand easily with A rainbow bless and a super wide range of magic tools if they can just get 1 or 2 highland provs. They have great crossbows too if you get a forest or two. They are not a noob nation though and have a few noob trap options. The freespawn cannibal can be decent in an early ish war but if you get too many and have nothing for them to do they start costing you too much. I like an imprisoned divine glyph with t3 p3 g3 mis1 magic 2 which gives you access to some good strength attack and magic weapons with some room to tinker

[@RamenAwesomeNoodles]

Good to see another Ind player. I’ve had good results with an imprisoned oracle. W6S4B6 for x2 def and x2 str and Magic Weapons or Magic Resist, the ind swordsmen wreck indies and you can still get great scales, but yeah a bad map can make the game rough.

[@auraguard0212]

FFFFFFFFFFFFrankly a nation isn't good if you have to try really hard to be average.

[@CantusTropus]

I don't think you can really hold salt vulnerability against Na'Ba. When was the last time anyone actually used Enchanted Salt?

[@lonelyswordsman1177]

Does sending it to people as a joke count as using it? Because I've seen people do that.

[@rovsea-3761]

Na'Ba does actually have a pretty strong group of mages, some of whom can thug reasonably well, that are not vulnerable to salt. The Sahir, hermit Sahir, jann emir, and mukarrib all lack salt vulnerability.

[@auraguard0212]

He did, as Ubar, to teabag elves.

[@xTxCxMx]

I built it while testing something only to have my thugs refuse to use it, does that count? Or maybe they were using it and just constantly missed, either way I'm never gonna actually try using it seriously after that.

[@TheMelnTeam]

I can dunk on the AI with Asphodel without breaking a sweat, but every build I've come up with for it so far has too many vulnerabilities to things that other players would do, so I'd not feel confident taking it into MP. Like controlling undead or even just early fire elementals. I guess you could try to use limited count of black centaurs against early fire stuff, though you still really want nature on pretender to make forts. It's not an impossible nation or something. Rigor mortis + darkness will come online faster than with Ermor. But when considering all the other nations in the game the only one that strikes me as obviously worse is LA R'lyeh. Yet I'm sure people have won online games even with LA R'lyeh. Maybe for Asphodel it's a matter of practice/balancing nature gem spending properly. Its economy aspect is weird in that you transition from gold to gems + freespawn. Both the timing of that transition and how quickly it's made are choices to make that have non-trivial consequences. Completely different nation as a disciple too. MA Xibalba can hit > 20 provinces turn 12 with scales expansion, simply printing the 3 resource frogs and putting them in a line. They also benefit from having heat scales (to avoid sleeping bat mages) which will keep mountain passes clear, and full amphibious allowing jumps into ponds/across rivers etc so consistent expansion timings. Pretender design should help them against rushes, since IMO their expansion is fine and their mages are good (though the Ku'hul is overpriced). They're not useless underwater but they won't win pitched fights against UW nations with even territory/research. If a UW struggles/screws up and Xibalba can become extremely annoying, like a hot LA Atlantis with blood. I still wouldn't put the nation higher than you did though. MA competition is strong.

[@ivankorneev7591]

I'm surprised that Ys is that high, tbf - don't they have this problem of being pretty vulnerable to any other UW nation?

[@marceloantunes998]

Even if the world strongest man has a deadly allergy to kittens he's still the world strongest man And it's only a weakness in the early game which is when y's biggest asset, its sacreds, are at their strongest. Give them a strong bless and it balances out

[@Kaiser282]

The first nation I ever played was ma Pythium and I didn't realize you needed to cast communion master. I didn't beat the AI even lol

[@ancalagon4747]

Do you think you'll post the Asphodel game you mentioned?

[@LucidTactics]

i dont think so - i had some rl stuff and had to sub out most the early game

[@marceloantunes998]

@@LucidTactics But it would be nice to see how you play one of the game's worst nations God knows I've tried, god knows I've failed

[@marceloantunes998]

@@LucidTactics Also, Asphodel is not that bad in the e.g., two to five sacreds with a few undead will take care of most indies. It's in mid and late that they're utterly worthless and it's in mid and late that it would be interesting to see them well played.

[@LucidTactics]

yeah ill definitely do a national overview for them at a point, but i also kind of want to play another game with them and see if i can give them a better showing.

[@miniaturecolossus5242]

Nice to see some love for Jotunheim, Phlegra and Uruk.

[@rovsea-3761]

I enjoyed the video, but I don't think I agree with the placement on several of the nations. Pythium I'd definitely rate a tier higher, for example.

[@Bill_Garthright]

That's the great thing about Dominions 5, isn't it? There are so many different views of these things. This is the second tier list I've seen, and they were quite different. And the comments to both videos had lots of alternate opinions. To me, that just shows how much there is to the game.

[@wintermath3173]

Can you elaborate a bit on the usefulness of Vaetti Hags?

[@LucidTactics]

Sure, I'll talk about them more when I do a proper overview for a nation that has them. But they are mostly all useful. 40 g s1 mage is great, n1s can do swarm and buffs, w1s are frozen heart spammers and can buff some with a gem, d1s are the least useful but can do dark knowledge and a few skeletons in a fight

[@miniaturecolossus5242]

A 40 gold stealthy mage is always going to be nice, especially if you take M3 scales (which you very much should). S-randoms are super cheap communion slaves and magic duellers (comparable to stargazers and soothsayers, but those are in EA) but also communion masters if you want to guarantee they always cast astral spells (Gygjas will often default to other stuff) and great point buffers (that can stealth along with Skratti and hold their gear if necessary). D-randoms are mostly for research but can also do dark knowledge and reanimation (remember that Jotun nations get special giant longdead), while in combat probably the most useful thing they can cast i dust-to-dust (great against undead thugs, but also somewhat useful against massed skeletons). N-randoms are great swarm casters and can cast enlarge with a gem (entangle/vine arrow can be situationally useful, at least early on). B-randoms are of course very cost efficient blood hunters, but also forgers of dowsing rods, flesh eaters, rings of the warrior etc (they can also be sabbath slaves in a pinch). Jotunheim don't get W-randoms (those are for Vaettiheim), but I count that as a positive since it means more of the other randoms.

[@planthing2315]

Xibalba was the first nation I ever played taught me alot about fort building and using blood

[@Deadknight67]

I'd be curious to see how you opinion has changed after 2 years :)

[@bear-kaiser9242]

10/10 just cause Phlegra A tier

[@bc--]

Surprised to see Ind so low. Their blood magic is insane, and they have magic diversity + a lot of versatility.

[@auraguard0212]

Try playing Ind. >~

[@bc--]

@@auraguard0212 I have, multiple times. They're a good nation. (particularly if you don't get screwed by terrain generation)

[@bonanapi]

I would love to see you play the reappearing antagonist of your games, the bully squids.

[@LucidTactics]

im in late game as LA rlyeh right now. it is making me hate squids in a whole new way...

[@bonanapi]

@@LucidTactics The squids know who their enemy is even if he pretends to be their god.

[@the_ogre1234]

@@bonanapi What an amazing way to put it dude 😂

[@danshabash]

Yeah, gotta agree with others here that Ind is objectively rated too low (as far as anything can be objective in Dom). They got great expand and early war tools, great magic diversity, blood in a blood-poor age, etc. They're just a really solid/versatile nation from every standpoint. I haven't won a game with em (and I'm not that great of a player) but in the last Ind game I played I was in the lead until stalemated by a 3v1 coalition for a couple years... then everyone got tired and the game got called by mutual exhaustion. I'd say Ind is B tier at least, probably even A. They're only C if someone falls for the many "noob trap" options they have such as freespawn cannibals

[@ericc9321]

I think Uruk's awful 8-9 morale on almost all their mages really holds them back from being A tier.

[@deadsalmon4115]

ASPHODEL REPRESENT panic apostates are great, never underestimate the suprising number of good spells/tricks they can do (see howl, FV, rigor mortis, skele spam, high nature stuff, not to mention having really good twiceborn forms, thugging) and I would like to be on record as a youtube comments section "expert" as saying that you don't need a super bless for your black centaurs to 20+ expand

[@fakeymcrealname9374]

Ethan King you can get good expansion with centaurs but to do so you need either enough scales to recruit them or a big bless to make them useful in small numbers. Scales are bad because you are a popkill nation with poor recruit anywhere troops. Blessing for expansion is bad because you cannot recruit enough black centaurs to be competitive after year 2. I love playing ashphodel and will continue to tinker with them but I think their primitive forts are the real problem. You need gems and mages to be powerful in the midgame and with 1 commander point point forts or 35gems and mobile N5 pretender you are screwed by either choice. Maybe awake pretender and black centaurs rushing to take somebody else's forts is more viable IDK.

[@nathansalvetti8232]

I'm sorry, thanks for the video it's great input and you even gave some much needed love to Marignon but Lord almighty these mic bumps are driving me crazy.

[@LucidTactics]

Yeah i recorded it while my room is all covered in plastic wrap for painting and i even got a mic isolator but that isnt even working great. i probably need to attach it to something other than my table. Its on a boom rod and im not even touching the mic - just the table the boom rod is attachd to :/

[@nathansalvetti8232]

@@LucidTactics Damn, and it's not like you can avoid touching your desk when doing a tier video either. A stop gap mesure could be to soundlessly record the video first and then record the audio hopefully without touching anything and then combining the two with a video editing program. It's not good nor a long term solution (and it adds more goddamn work) but it could work in the meantime while you find a way to deal with that uncooperative boom rod.

[@mynameisUhrl]

any link to the machaka game dude you´re referencing? I don´t understand what name or nick you´re saying, not familiar with the scene. also your mic setup is wrong. It keeps ringing, which is pretty bad. Try taping the metal bars so they don´t resonate maybe wasn´t it MA Shinuyama that had the highest win rate when someone gathered data on it? Was back when dom5 was more recent though.

[@Kaiser282]

Generalconfusion kzbin.info/aero/PLl3YYe6_JF4snSnOYjJE5QAvAzYrgFHOc

[@the_ogre1234]

Good Video. Do Late please it's my younger brothers favorite age as Ulm.

[@SinOfAugust]

Your general assessment of the MA seems to clash with your rankings. You describe MA as having large power disparity between strong nations and weak nations, but when you rank them you seem to gravitate towards describing them all as fairly viable and of roughly comparable strength.

[@bonjour2025]

I don't think so, even if most are B, Sceleria and Nazca are just so far above anyone else in terms of power, and the bottom is very very bad, it kinda fits still.

[@SinOfAugust]

@@bonjour2025 Even so, I think this needs to be explicitly said. This is a central claim in the assesment of the era, and it needs to be clearly explained, without needing to read between the lines. My impression from all three of these rankings is always the opposite - that ranking between nations are washed out and mutable.

[@Kitkat-986]

I think Ermor is much more painful to play against than Scelaria. Popkilled proviences are painful and unrewarding to take, and burden of time means all your mortal commanders are going to be dying just trying to get to the front line. I'm completely biased because I once had my ass handed to me by Ermor as Ulm with absolutely no counters to the kinds of things they could bring. Your nation needs specific answers to burden of time and invading zero supply proviences just to fight on even ground with Ermor, and that's not even taking into account that no one wants to take dead proviences in multi-player games. Usually the end result is that Ermor doesn't get contained nearly as soon as it should be by player alliances and it's allowed to grow out of control. Being the first player to attack Ermor is a very good way to lose multi-player games.

[@Chikanuk]

Unlike over 2 videos i disagree with 50%+ of placements =D But still - good to know another player opinion, especially so experienced one.

[@auraguard0212]

"You can Gateway around your Communion Slaves..." _O3O_

[@equdarkmatter-2621]

I strongly feel like asphodel should be D and Machaka C

[@cschulzke26]

Is the old soul contract strat still viable for MA Abyssia?

[@LucidTactics]

they are too expensive in dom 5 i think

[@cschulzke26]

@@LucidTactics That's a shame as the cool thing about MA Abyssia was they had a flying commander capable of leading the flying devils.

[@shinemoon4673]

To me, MA Man is the balancing point of Dominions. They're the Thanos nation. I judge all nations in comparison to Man.

[@the_ogre1234]

They are pretty much the generic mediaeval European/Arthurian nation what with knights and longbow men and such. Frankly one of my favorites but more like my 3rd or 4th maybe even 5th.

[@MRProgressor]

LA Tierlist soon™? :-p

[@LucidTactics]

sunday :)

[@MRProgressor]

@@LucidTactics Ah, fitting. On the day of the Pantokrator

[@CantusTropus]

Also, while it is a big change from vanilla, have you ever considered reviewing a Dominions Enhanced nation? There's some really interesting nations in there, and I don't think any of them are really overpowered.

[@LucidTactics]

Im signed up for my first DE game! It hasnt started yet and im playing a vanilla nation in it... but its my first toe im dipping in the DE pool.

[@piotr3561]

@@LucidTactics This is pretty cool that you're finally playing a DE game, it feels like most of underpowered vanilla nations in DE got some kind of buffs (Eriu, Asphodel or R'lyeh reworks) while not making them super strong or anything (though some may disagree, especially after seeing Shining Trapezohedron R'lyeh hijinks). Also I enjoyed your tier list, at first I wanted to tell you that Abysia is B tier but then I realized in vanilla, compared to DE, Warlock Apprentices are cap-only and there's no Ember Lords (plus DE buffs fire by removing rain etc.)

[@CantusTropus]

@@LucidTactics Awesome! Personally I'm fond of the native American nations (Nihuala, EA Chaco, and Chaco's descendant Ongtuqpa). Chaco in particular has sacred ogres with inbuilt Vine Shields, as well as a 600 gold mage that's worth every penny (N3E2H3 with a random in Earth/Nature/Water on a 55 hp chassis with 15 invulnerability and an inbuilt Vine Shield). Does make them a bit cap dependent though but it's just an awesome mage.

[@rovsea-3761]

There are a few *pretty strong* DE nations, such as Ryugo-jo, which is still good despite continuous nerfs. I do think there are fewer nations that can just run away with the game in DE though.

[@ScowlieMeerkat]

Say "Dominions opinions" 5 times fast.

[@jaredlol1]

Holy, a sequel. I am pleasantly surprised

[@EgorIvlev]

Can some1 explain me, how to play MA Ulm as A tier nation? And in DE a lot of stuff get "fixed", esp. like asphodel.

[@sirkana]

Well i'm not an experienced player or anything, but if i'm not completely wrong you have good scales with drain researchers that make resources, the best infantry in ma (maybe in game) and your battlefield mages are pretty darn ok as well. You get basically free equipment with your smiths, which allows you to do dumb stuff, like giving your shit t´h1 priests bows or fire slings or whatever etc. Late game you get a big earth/astral(?) angel summon. So i just expand super well, research a lot and take it from there. Edit: Well looks like I wasted my time, lucid said pretty much all of that in the video.

[@EgorIvlev]

@@sirkana main problems is air. Air magic basically counters all that stuff. In that game too many armor negating spells.

[@superresistant0]

@@EgorIvlev what air spells in particular ?

[@Janohito]

@@superresistant0 thunderstrike, orb lightning, lightning all can be deadly

[@rovsea-3761]

@@superresistant0 Another big problem with air is storm, mist, and arrow fend, all of which reduce the effectiveness of spells like bladewinds, iron blizzard, or the use of crossbows if ulm is inclined for whatever reason to make them.

[@daegon1985]

I miss general confusion😢

[@LucidTactics]

Dont we all! Hopefully he does some dom6 stuff soon

[@joejones5418]

im sorry but Ind is at the very least A tier if not S tier

[@Bill_Garthright]

I love these tier list videos. Thanks! Now, I'm only half-way through watching this one. It takes me awhile, because I take notes. But I'll watch the rest of it tomorrow. I just got to your ranking of MA Marignon, which I thought was interesting. 'A' tier, huh? Wow, I've been struggling to figure out how to play them in single-player. I've started over about six times, with different blesses and/or different strategies. My expansion has been _so_ slow. And since I play against random enemy nations, sometimes a nation will just perfectly counter my plan which seemed to be working fine against everyone else. My current game, though, is going well, and it's become lots of fun. I'm not sure if I learned how to play them, or if it's just the luck of the draw, but I'm having a blast! Although it took me forever to get to Construction 6, once I did, my research skyrocketed when I used all of my fire gems to make lightless lanterns. (Before then, I just used sacred troops and H3 priests with a Power of Stone smite.) Really, I'm sure any halfway competent opponent would have crushed me by now, but my strategy seems to be working great against the AI. And it was kind of fun trying to figure out how to play them by myself. I'd rather do that than follow a script that someone else has developed. And as you've demonstrated, there are so _many_ different ways to play Dom 5, huh?

[@Supernatpy]

I would probably put Rlyeh, Ashdod and NaBa to something like A+ list. They are not so strong as Nazka bat WAY stronger than other A tier nations like C`tis or Jotun

[@xenosophont]

Vanheim belongs on the A tier. Not at the top of A tier but definitely somewhere in there.

[@jb9515]

I'm shocked you put Abyssia so low. They are Ulm with holy 3s, assassins, blood and easy coms. The flail infantry has got to be in the running for the best basic units in the game. Also the national summons are pretty useful. I'd switch them with Shinuyama which belongs in C or D...its a 1D nation..fun/cool factor its A+ but unless you love micro its hard to play. Bakemono are hard countered and the wight mages are a lot more expensive to twiceborn these days.

[@rovsea-3761]

I think shinuyama is routinely underestimated, they have a ton of fun stuff they can do from raiding to thugging, and pretty reasonable access to powerful battlefield spells as well. Ulm I'd definitely say is stronger than Abysia for a few reasons: first off their good troops are considerably cheaper than abysia's in terms of gold, and basically in terms of resources because their mages give them resource bonuses. They also have much cheaper mages, who are primarily earth mages, and thus much better at buffing their troops than the fire mages abysia has access to are. Ulm has some glaring weaknesses in regards to things like poison damage, but they can eventually cut those down a bit via nature indies, who are helpfully pretty common. In addition, they have excellent forging with their forge bonuses, and can use fire gems to get their mages up to f2, and cover weaknesses to things like cold or fire damage/fatigues. They don't have assassins, holy 3s, or easy comms, but they have a straightforward, efficient, and powerful gameplan. I think they're better than Abysia in MA.

[@LucidTactics]

Ive seen shinuyama played pretty well before. I could get on board with your abysia rating; maybe i need to give them a harder look.

[@williamreese7828]

@@LucidTactics I also would put Abysia higher than C tier; their sacreds are still good, even if not burning one tier, and are the bane of Living Statues existence. They're also one of the premier MA Blood Powers. Though I still wouldn't give them A tier because they have some of the worst researchers in the game. That said Shinu belongs where it is; the Bakemono change to size 1 gave them far better expansion. I probably would move MA Tien'chi down a bit (to C, not D), as Red Guard are sadly about the worst sacred cav in dominions. Also IND is basically just better MA Xibalba in terms of doing blood stuff, so they should bare minimum be the same tier.

[@jb9515]

@@rovsea-3761 ulm vs abys you get what you pay for...the abys flail dude has more hp, is stronger, is fire resistant, 12 magic res, can see in the dark and has aura that lights things on fire..seems worth paying a few extra gold for. Ulm mages are great but recruit anywhere comable holy3s with the same paths are pretty good too. As are natural astral 3-4. Plus Abys has blood coming out its ears for reinvig and wounds and lots of useful crafting.

[@rovsea-3761]

@@jb9515 I don't think Abysia is a bad nation, but I still think that in some ways, Ulm is the best in the age at what they do (spam good gear troops, buff them, support with mages after buffing). That being said, I'm not very experienced with blood magic, and it's entirely possible that Abysia can push ulm around a bit as the game goes on. I just haven't really seen it yet.

[@jb9515]

So I'm intereted in the icons on Lucids taskbar. ..airplane mode? Whatr the 5 diamonds..is that some sort of art pen icon?

[@LucidTactics]

dropbox :P

[@kevinbrown2438]

Pangea is S-Tier

[@marceloantunes998]

Don't see how r'lyeh and y's aren't s tier. With arguably the best mages and sacreds respectively and both with better than 50/50 odds against sceleria.

[@LucidTactics]

rlyeh is highly relevant against sceleria but i wouldnt say they have the upper hand. Rlyeh also kinda wants to get a lot of infrastructure and mage production up etc before they run at sceleria and by that time sceleria isnt going to worry that much about them. I've fought rlyeh twice as sceleria, both times my choice and both times i capped them. That said ma rlyeh is still very solid, and if someone told me they killed sceleria, id think sceleria got outplayed but i wouldnt be in disbelief. I'm also not thinking ys has the upper hand against sceleria. knights are not going to like apostacy spam while they chew their way through chaff and gladiators.

[@marceloantunes998]

@@LucidTactics I'm obviously less expirenced but if it's "both times [your] choice" then they perhaps weren't in the best diplo position, which, I will concede, is hard to ever be in as r'lyeh. On paper they'd be their best match 1 on 1. As for y's, 40 almost thugs with a mr bless and buff + a few s.c. are still one of the best answers to a sceleria army. Especialy after having a third of your army killed by flames from the sky.

[@bear-kaiser9242]

@@marceloantunes998 thats something more than half the Atiers can do but can they fight sceleria before they get those thiings and if yes how far is sceleria when they get them on a hypothetical senario with perfect resherch maybe ...they can win but thats true for many nations will you have all this online before scelia will be able to drownyou with undead and all the other scelerian bs

[@tarsis6123]

Dammit, more preamble.

[@zeyugao4283]

I do not see how would ULM be able to deal with sulphur haze, freezing mist and posion cloud, without sacred troop is super vulunerable to thoes AN cloud spell, and any sacred not taking posion and cold resistant also rendered by those spell even if it is a giant. same problem for pythium, I can see it is a strong nation if it survive the first war, but since it will have 4-5 neighbours and I don't think that there are 5 nation in MA that cannot kill pythium in the first war. like what do they got to deal with any sacred troop, gladiators are not going to net down rainbow sacred with +4 strength and the legionnaires are not going to kill sacred in the first war let's say the opponet with 40 sacred and some chaffs. the only scenario I could think of pythium survive it's first war would be the opponet don't have cold resistance and got freezing mist to death. and give in the fact that most build are rainbows are the shock resistant have no much competion in air bless I also doubt that pythium can crap out enough thunder strike to deal with 40 sacred.

[@CantusTropus]

Sulphur Haze and Freezing Mist require very specific cross paths (Fire/Air and Water/Air respectively). You won't run into them that often and you can predict who is likely to have them (usually Na'Ba and Caelum, maybe Phaecia, maybe Phlegra but they are usually better served by ele spam). And while all three of those are pretty good against Ulm, they all take time to kill. If Ulm can just run up and kill you first, you can be in trouble (plus Iron Darts spam).

[@CantusTropus]

Also, you're overestimating most sacreds. Unless you've built an all in hellbless your Vans/et al aren't going to massacre gladiators so cost efficiently that the Pythium player comes out worse than you. What kind of sacreds do you mean? Anakites?

[@zeyugao4283]

@@CantusTropus the problem of gladiators are if you script your troop like letting your chaffs in front of your sacred and attack then your sacred hold and attack will basically waste much of the gladiators , even if you have cavalry sacred you could also get your sacred in the bottom line hand hold and attack then chaff first line attack, that also end up with the chaffs will meet gladiators first, and other than galdiators pythium's roster are not going to kill any sacred. the freezing mist can be cast by of nation like TC, Pythium sulphur haze can be cast by Marignion as well, and poison cloud can be cast by a tons of nation, basicaly every one have one of those AN cloud spell. I have used pythium before and gladiators are not working if your oppent put chaffs in front of their sacred well giving them the same order except the sacred hold and attack and the chaffs attack on the first round

[@rovsea-3761]

Ulm can actually deal with both sulphur haze and freezing mist with a little research, via cold or fire resistance. Pythium has efficient communions, and great anti-rush defense in retiarius, I don't see too many people rushing them down. I'd actually consider MA Pythium to be a power faction, I've seen them do very well before; they'd be near the top of A Tier if I was making the list. :P

[@gordopendejo944]

"i cant do anyrhing quick" OwO