Don't complicate your life by naming, shaming or blaming yourself or other people.

[@chancegoldstein]

Boy, does this resonate with me... Resting into victim-hood or calling out others as a narcissist if they are difficult, lands you exactly where you are by limiting your own possibilities, clouds your discernment and weakens your own internal compass. IMHO. Widening my aperture rather than laser-focusing gives me a clearer perspective of more around me.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Great summary and elaboration. Thanks.

[@kevindishc]

I've been thinking this way for a while now, how modern online conversational terms borrow highly technical language from psychiatry but are used out of context and unnecessarily pathologize. I think it's enough to listen and converse with one another just as human beings with needs living in a complicated reality. Cheers, Emmy! I've gleamed lots from your videos. You have my profound gratitude

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Spot on.

[@HelenBrennan-u9i]

I love listening to you. You are not only highly intelligent but also have common sense which is rare. 😊

[@russelltalker]

Narcissist and gaslighting do seem like two of the biggest labels of convenience as far as I've seen. Gaslighting is almost synonymous with someone having a different perspective to yours and narcissist is almost synonymous with being human and having an ego. Whatever ego even means. For a while I truly believed I was the victim of gaslighting. Until I started having similar experiences with new people, and also noticing this trend of throwing the word around super loosely. Which made me question it all. Or in other words it made me gaslight myself (joke). But I dropped the idea, and admitted to myself that I was being bullied because I was/am weaker in several ways, personally and situationally. This actually opened my mind up much more to the depths of what was/is going on and wow. Human mind is complex. The big bag of tricks that we all play on one another in every day situations, including the weaponizing of labels, is something I wish was taught at school, just to be made aware of it. And I don't even know how much of it I've discovered yet. There seems to be this basic format that we employ in our social game of automatic deception and self-deception which involves what I call turning the table. Like when you're arguing and each person takes a turn to make themselves the victim and you the bad guy. But we don't only do this in heated arguments, we're doing it in our own heads when we encounter unpleasant feelings about something. We might alter our view of the world or another, to maintain the self-image that we want to maintain, usually of being a victim to avoid responsibility. Or we might do the opposite and alter our self-image as a bad person to maintain an image of the other in order to avoid something that's more difficult than feeling guilt or shame, like anger or grief or disillusionment or the anxiety of needing to stand up for yourself. So my go to compass that I think I got from my spiritual interest, but also with some interest in mental health, and a lot of introspection, is to try to find what it is that I'm avoiding. Either internally or externally. Which I can do by probing my feelings about different possibilities, and then trying to see how I might be tricking myself. And I usually try to see the trick by considering how it relates to the self-image I'm running in my mind. And what about that image I might need to let go of.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@russelltalker Splendid reply. So much careful observation and self questioning, leading to greater insight and understanding. Absolutely right: start facing what is actually happening and seeing what you are avoiding. Stop playing tricks on yourself and start making honest decisions about how you want to live and change.

[@andrevieirapsi]

This talk is so necessary these days. Thank you, Emmy! ❤

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Oh yes! The wool is being pulled over so many people's eyes.

[@Florica-d9d]

Of course,we can’t diagnose someone to have the illness,but we can learn how to put boundaries to this people.Never I will permit to somebody to have narcissistic behaviour towards me 🙅‍♀️

[@rachelr8837]

Good advice...sometimes you're on an island, though when you're the advanced and considerate one. Bullies and rude ppl are everywhere. What is sad is that you can't just be yourself, especially with family who do not change. It has to be a game, work & stress.😢

[@a.mie.533]

I had to press the display against my heart during that video because what you're saying sounds so sincere and wise and intense 🥺...

[@julietteferrars3097]

I can see what you mean with labels becoming trends and being used to ostracize and create an us vs. them mentality. However, in my life it has helped me to have greater understanding and finally reach acceptance. If one does not know they are dealing with a sharp knife they will continue to be surprised and frustrated when the knife cuts them. Labels have led me to accept what I cannot change about certain people and changed what I can expect from them. Labels allow me to identify and create boundaries and keep myself well- mentally, physically, and spiritually.

[@amenadito8079]

Exactly! You said it beautifully! That's why there is also a positive side on this spreading of pseudo-psychological knowledge. Lot of us came to the realization that there are patterns of abuse that come from a very damaged core that only therapy can change. Understanding it helps you to move on. You must use this knowledge wisely, to understand the complexity of human nature, and act accordingly

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@julietteferrars3097 Yes, there are people who are using these terms in useful and careful ways and who have been helped by them to understand some of their interactions with other people better. I was speaking about people who use these terms to name, shame and blame people. That is never going to help anyone. It will always complicate things and add another layer of conflict and alienation.

[@evagrosz1621]

We have to start with ourselves. The world can only be corrected in this way. I am convinced .Always correcting ourselves .Let's practice this for a lifetime ! Thanks Dear Emmy !

[@FUNNYMANERICWHITE]

Exactly well said ❤

[@deerinheadlights100]

Yes, that is so true. It is also true that people (we are only human) use various tactics to get their way or feel better about themselves or may turn their anger outward. Getting in touch with yourself certainly helps, but it is important to understand that others may believe and behave very differently from you.

[@PlayfulPersonalTransformation]

I love this, Emmy. Building self-trust is such a game-changer when it comes to your ability to be in relation with the world around you - a world full of different perspectives. When you build trust with yourself, you trust yourself to honor your needs and lessen any need to blame outside forces. It takes time and compassion for sure.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Yes, buttercup!

[@jimicunningable]

I'm an Aspy (or something like it, damn the DSM). I've "always" felt gaslit. What's more, one of the most essential moments in my intellectual life was a 90s Environmental Ethics class. Now you have an Aspy carrying on about threats to life on Earth. I REALLY got gaslit then. Horrible. ...or so I thought. IN FACT, what usually is happening is "Adaptive Inattention" on the part of the Other person. Since their very definitions of things are under threat in the face of climate crisis, they have to tune me out. Without coaching like yours above, or the Religious Naturalist who taught me about Adaptive Inattention, I'd still feel very persecuted and personal about the whole thing. TYVM for your take on this. It was most timely, as I volunteer at a climate .org.

[@jimicunningable]

BTW, I"m here because a social worker friend of mine recommended you after she heard me critique the WIERD problem in US mental health. She had seen one of your videos introducing Existential Psych. I'm rather glad she did.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Very interesting feedback indeed! Thanks.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@jimicunningable Me too! Thanks are due!

[@allonesame6467]

The work of the Religious Naturalists has been a very compelling revelation looking into it just now. Thank you for mentioning it and I hope you are well, my friend. May good things come.

[@andriyandriychuk]

Understanding narcissism helped me finally made sense of what happened in my family. So no I don't agree. Sometimes it is the case. Every situation is unique. There's no general guideline. Sometimes you should really get to know that your relationship includes narcissist. Then you can act properly.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

That's true too.

[@demoraatz]

Yes, and undiagnosed autism as well

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@demoraatz That’s another topic to be tackled. So many people now use the word ‘autistic’ when they simply have a tendency towards introversion, where autism previously used to apply exclusively to people with very severe problems in communication and autonomous living. This kind of identity politics is a very interesting phenomenon that needs a lot more reflection.

[@aishagranger1391]

You can’t diagnose someone as a narcissist. You’re not a psychologist. If someone is abusive toward you, then that is your experience. Your experience is valid, but so is theirs.

[@MarcelGraumans]

​@@aishagranger1391 It's not about diagnosing someone, but making an observation. Nobody seems to say what you say when someone calls another person having "an agreeable personality style". So saying someone is having "a narcissistic personality style" doesn't differ from that. That has nothing to do with naming or shaming, but everything with calling out and espressing what is going on / is observed in reality. The whole denial of having the right to call this out is what brought us to this point in time. It's time to stand up and stop covering up these types of patterns and behaviors, not enabling it by looking away and self silencing. Where this works both ways. By which I mean you should always look both on the inside as well as on the outside.

[@BabyCricket-Bug]

Narcissism is much much darker than the average, inexperienced person can even fathom, and I agree with your message. Had I not actually experienced the narc abuse and had to research it to understand the entire nightmare, I wouldn't understand it myself, and it very much annoys me how everyone throws that label around so casually to anyone that they don't like or caused them grief. Narcissistic behavior vs the actual mental/spiritual disorder are two very different things.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Yes, correct. And it's a problem because it is a dismissive way to treat people and it dilutes the meaning of the real problem, so that it normalizes that kind of behaviour.

[@BabyCricket-Bug]

@@EmmyvanDeurzen Very true, Miss Emmy! That term should be used full strength and only at those who fill it's full meaning, because the amount of evil stitched in that mental/emotional disorder is beyond regular human flaw.

[@kerribelleville7958]

You have just propelled me in the right direction with this message. Thank you for your words & thanks to the universe/God for perfect timing.

[@lisamendoza-rodriguez1968]

Emmy, You are such a treasured light full of knowledge and I can’t imagine not seeing you and learning something of great value(every time I get to watch your content.) It’s been several months since I found you on KZbin. Of course I watched your previous videos before then. We are in different country’s but It feels like you are a life long friend! This is a rare occurrence, at least for me. I thank you Dear Emmy. ❤…

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

So pleased you found my channel. Visit often.

[@aishagranger1391]

I came to this conclusion after many many years, I was labeling my mother and ex as a narcissists. Then I realized, everyone labels people they don’t like as narcissists.

[@HudsonHenrique1]

This is so precious to hear, wise words to be understood, thanks for the knowledge once again!

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

You are very welcome.

[@ronvancleef]

Thank you for keeping things in perspective, Yes, it seems so many of us want to diagnose others these days. Social media, for example, often gives one the impression everyone is a narcissist or “gaslighting” us. This really is a form of labeling in most cases and it keeps us all prisoners serving life terms.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Yes, I agree it is a prison we create for ourselves rather than a liberation or a step towards understanding.

[@MarcelGraumans]

I get where your message is aiming at. I would say that, not everyone who (sometimes) acts like an asshole has a narcissistic personality style, while everyone who has a narcissistic personality style acts like an asshole most of the time, but there is (in my experience / observation) a huge pitfall with the message you share here. Labeling "often accurate observations of patterns of abuse, and calling them out / expressing that observation", as "naming and shaming" causes a lot of people to go the route of self silencing. This effectively allows the abuse to continue and often keeps these people stuck in unsafe and unhealthy situations. There are different stages when it comes to healing from abuse and yes, although this wouldn't be the case in a perfect world, people do get victimized by (become victims of) other people's toxic / abusive behavior. Denying that isn't helpful. When people brought (themselves) into safety and out of the toxic and sometimes even dangerous situation, they can start a process of healing, which again starts with seeing they became a victim of circumstances they were not (fully) responsible for. Addressing this and finding labels to get a reference as to what really happened can be useful in this case. Only when it's clear what has happened, people can start to see what really went on, who played what role in that situation, start to see what their role was and eventually move on. Equating "being or having been a victim" with "victim-hood" which seems to be a trend nowadays is again enabling the abuser and silencing the victim. The denial of "the possibility of becoming a victim" under the umbrella of toxic spirituality, toxic positivity and/or "unconditional love" is fine in Disneyland, but not in a world where we can encounter people who are behaving abusive. That would be denial of reality and become a huge stand in the way for actual change. Yes, we shouldn't create and cultivate a space of "victimhood" and set up shop there, but we also cannot just skip the book to the last page. Moving from being a victim (station 1) to survivor (station 4) is a process and blaming people who are at station 1 from a position of being at station 4 is a huge blind spot that brings along invalidation and stagnation of the person at station 1.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@MarcelGraumans Very fair critique. Great stuff. It seems to me you will need to make a video about this! I will make one of my own about calling out abuse very soon.

[@dwjantz]

*applauding. This has got to be her best one I have heard here. For my interests, anyway. Too many people casually toss around the terms to which she referred, as if they are all experts. So much so they have become diluted terms to the public, which adds to the tossing around of them even more. More information as Emmy has given needs to be put out there.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@dwjantz Thank you.

[@dwjantz]

So very welcome!! I passed this on to some friends.

[@44kigeek91]

Very good message, thank you. I needed to hear that.

[@lisabroadbent6515]

Thank you for sharing. I enjoy watching your videos. They’re calming and they also help me but they also help to calm me down too. Thank you.

[@livingadaylilylife]

This is so important to realize. Thank you for your knowledge, wisdom, and continued work!

[@lynndennis5176]

Im so grateful to have found your channel!

[@GnosisMan50]

I'm reminded of my niece who struggles with BPD. One day, I accompanied her and her husband to her father 's memorial. As we waited on a corner street for the traffic light to change to cross the street, two women behind us complimented my niece's dress. My niece said thank you and then quipped, "I got this dress at Goodwill and I'm going to a memorial because my father died". Needless to say, her husband did not take it well this kind of oversharing and he gently called her out on it. My niece, in turn, went ballistic on him. It was not until much later when both calmed down that I asked my niece why she got so angry for an issue that did not warrant it. She then said that her her husband's reproach reminded her of her mother. But her husband said, "I'm not your mother". Unfortunately, my niece could not differentiate that the spirit of her husband's reproach was out of genuine concern regarding her proclivities to overshare while her mother's many reproaches throughout my niece's life were demeaning, controlling, belittling, punitive, and especially traumatic. Her mother's (my sister) version of motherhood was downright evil. My niece eventually understood that oversharing is a big problem and that her husband is not her mother. Even so, it's going to take many years for my niece to heal from the psychological harm caused by her mother.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Thanks for the anecdote.

[@AC-hf3gm]

Your an absolute blessing ❤️ thank you for putting your thoughts, experiences and journey into a videos to help others gain insight ❤️

[@smitkamble8747]

you're so right emmy

[@BrentDavis75]

Excellent video. Much needed truth. Thank you.

[@kimsherlock8969]

Ideally your lovely podcast has pointed 👉 to advice on seeking out help. 😊 Help is not easy to find , not all feet will be comfortable in the wrong shoes . 😑 It can be years of pain moving through different specialists with no relief . Money leaks away Like a once in a lifetime holliday to hell . Endurance strength to continue. 😊 Push on .

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Good help is indeed hard to find. I always point towards our online low cost clinic. dilemmaconsultancy.com

[@tmrfoushee]

Thank you so much!!!

[@1Strawbz1]

i think there are people out there who dont want resolution ive learnt that recently, they want to leave the relationship stale

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Usually when they are afraid, or haven't worked out their own problems yet.

[@marylynch951]

Thank you Emmy God bless you ❤❤

[@ThePossumone]

Gaslighting is really denying someones reality - the person knows they heard or saw or experienced something - yet the other person denies it or calls them delusional and crazy Narcissists are on a spectrum too and even if 1 in 100 they interact with a lot of people and frequently have lots of intimate relationships - so they can damage a lot of people

[@FUNNYMANERICWHITE]

Thank you

[@dreamingofthemoontonight]

New subscriber here ❤ Grateful for you and your beautiful words.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Welcome.

[@MJS2376]

So good. Thank you. Needed to hear this today.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Must have known that!

[@eenzaakvanliefde1969]

I'm quite certain that a classical narcissist can be distinguisht from someone with narcissistic behaviour. It's not the same.

[@ingaverteja511]

NPD is not that rare. 1% (or more) is 1 in 100. And it's likely that 1 in 25 families have one member who has NPD (and 1 in 5 extended families). And they do use gaslighting as do many people who only have some traits of NPD, antisocial personality disorder, etc. I don't think it's that rare. What's more, I think it could be very common in certain groups of people and very rare in others (depending on people's level of education, social status, maturity, mental health, etc.). E. g. there are many people with an antisocial personality disorder in prisons. Similarly those families that live in dangerous areas, countries and other environments come accross these people much more often than those who live in safer places. I grew up in a family of serious criminals and I witnessed gaslighting (and worse than that) on a daily basis. It wasn't (subjectively) rare for me and it isn't for many many people who live like that (or even worse) now. So, the possibility of actually experiencing gaslighting is relative depending on the person's situation and it's not that rare in some people's lives.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

1% is still rare. And the way this is measured is very much up for further research and debate. Many of us do not believe that personality disorders are a helpful category at all. Back to my answer to your previous query: if the person is unbalanced and a danger to society, then it becomes a matter for the law.

[@andriyandriychuk]

Anything purposeful aimed at making another person question their own judgement, self worth , experience, reality and so forth is gaslighting. It is a vicious manipulation. It is not only the same trick with dim light. It is what the gaslighter wants you to believe - that's the heart of it. Not the tricks with light or the keys or else. Why do gaslighter wants you to believe you are insane? So you can't trust your own judgement. If the manipulation is aimed at this goal - it is gaslighting

[@ThePossumone]

They may not have NPD but they can be narcissistic and damage a lot of people

[@andriyandriychuk]

It seems she saw that post which I also today on Facebook.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Yes, I posted that interesting meme on Twitter and Facebook and it inspire me to speak about it here also.

[@rulistening7777]

So Pretty.

[@otsuasleep]

you're like real life Celine in the movie Before Sunrise(⁠ ⁠ꈍ⁠ᴗ⁠ꈍ⁠)

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Will watch it!

[@LargoWinch-th4gm]

❤

[@John-rb3yv]

A M E N !!

[@IshikaArmy]

Why am I so afraid of looking better than my friends what if they leave me bcz of that? Am I wrong here? help me please this is first time I'm feeling so maybe it's my mood swing or something

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

If your friends can leave you for such a spurious reason the friendship is not very strong! Perhaps you need to open your heart and talk about it.

[@EpistemicFomo]

My brother constantly bullied me for years and especially the last 6 months he treated me horribly, verbally abusing me. (We're both in our 30s). He came and apologized 2 weeks before his wedding for insulting me so that I'll attend. I didn't go. Was I wrong?

[@pursue513]

Short answer: no.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

That's entirely up to you, but it doesn't seem as if the very serious conflict and harm inflicted had been resolved, so it would have been very hard for you to be a pliable wedding guest, I would imagine. It's great you are thinking about it though. It shows you have reached a level of freedom in the situation.

[@EpistemicFomo]

@@EmmyvanDeurzen Thank you so much!

[@EnnVee959]

It is healthy that you recognized an abusive behaviour and created distance from the offender as a result. I admire you for having the courage to protect yourself.

[@EpistemicFomo]

@@EnnVee959 Thank you, I need to hear that 🙏

[@helmer1991]

Lief ❤😊

[@ingaverteja511]

I agree with you (and have seen even (and possibly even contributed to) serious criminals changing their lives when they were confronted), but again I see how this advice can be counterproductive because it ignores many many situations... Is it always only the victim of the crime (or abuse) who has to change themselves? Do you think that those who abuse others should be reported to police and stopped from hurting others? What if they murder somebody because they feel so entitled (because of their diagnoses NPD)? Isn't the anger (and the wish to name and shame the abuser) understandable at least at the beginning? Is there no place for the victim's anger? I agree that only the person can change their life, but I also think that they have a right (and need) to feel angry as well. And when people are angry, they may name and shame the person who abused them (physically, psychologically, sexually, by gaslighting or even torturing them). And the advice to confront the abuser isn't always helpful. Many abusers are really dangerous people who can (and have) kill or severely injure their victims if they try to leave them or just confront them.

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Obviously if anyone commits a crime or an illegal act or hurts you, it becomes a matter for the law. Having worked with the criminally insane I know that there are some cases in which talk is superfluous. But we are speaking about a tiny percentage of the worldwide population.

[@ingaverteja511]

@@EmmyvanDeurzen, 1 in 3 or 4 families in the UK experience domestic abuse (crime). I know it doesn't always involve gaslighting, but I don't think it's a tiny percentage either. And the situation is much worse in other countries (like Russia where domestic abuse is not even a crime).

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@ingaverteja511 Domestic violence is a huge problem, but that is a different issue.

[@ingaverteja511]

​ It involves a lot of the same people though... People with NPD, other personality disorders, people with addictions (most of whom have comorbid disorders) and their victims. I don't think it's that different. @@EmmyvanDeurzen

[@andriyandriychuk]

This advice is old very old and follows the 'get your act together' school. There's an element of judgement in it. Yeah we shall have personal responsibility. How did we get into the situation of lacking one? Aha

[@foltz-art]

Your so Beautiful and Brilliant 🥰✌️🙌🫶⚘️

[@brendahnatishion2399]

A 72 year old lady who has just found your powerful way of looking at life. Thank you.

[@foltz-art]

Thank you Brenda luv ❤🫶⚘️

[@foltz-art]

​@@brendahnatishion2399❤

[@shouygui4955]

sometimes u need 2 escalate, you say dont name then you list off the DSM-5 narrative verbatim what the heck

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

Sometimes you do. Yes.

[@Lopezflies888]

Isn't she gaslighting thou?

[@EmmyvanDeurzen]

@@Lopezflies888 No.