Don't Do This! How to Ruin Your Engine's Horsepower | Engine Masters | MotorTrend

[@JPasdfjkl]

What I learned for max power is to remove your cars fans and use as little oil in your engine as possible

[@DESTRAKON]

_What a guy that's a class act_

[@basketballcory2]

😂

[@warmonger1389]

Lol

[@richtrujillo9061]

So should I add a lot of of oil or keep that pesky oil to a minimum??

[@thewrench324]

Less is more lol

[@EmeraldEnchantments]

Would be nice if these guys did more daily motors. Not everyone chasing hp has a ( little) 600 hp motor. Help the 180 hp guy get to 230.

[@PekarskeGarage]

Stop being poor

[@justinmielsch5924]

The right parts and a good tuner

[@Carguylogan]

Also "daily" in the way of full accessory loads, catalytic converters and mufflers, air filters and intakes etc.

[@samsonreynolds3728]

180hp? lol

[@scrapplepig]

@@PekarskeGarage Being poor is the new fad.

[@thescottishhammer7570]

It was awful nice of Robert Duvall to take time out of his busy acting work schedule to come in and run your dyno for you. 🤟🏻🤟🏻

[@JimBob-vb8oz]

He wasn’t in Days of Thunder based on acting skills

[@Moosecop32]

The man knows how to make em low and fast like a streamlined butterfly

[@marklowe7431]

So you watch it on TV and think you're just gonna come here and race a nascar?

[@toddrobbins392]

The guy’s name is Steve Brule’ from Westech Performance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@marklowe7431]

@@toddrobbins392 You're missing the point.

[@Chimera6297]

"320 horsepower? pathetic!" *me, who can't even make 150 whp* : wow, that IS pretty lame

[@hawkdsl]

He wasn't calling the HP pathetic, he was referring to the HP loss caused by the fan.

[@brrrt7623]

😂😂😂

[@BriggsStratton11]

Well which fan was best? I only saw results from two of the four candidates.

[@ThePaulv12]

Yes Chris the whole vid was disjointed and difficult to follow.

[@gotj]

Ask your money back :-)

[@troykruse5161]

Yeah! What the F?

[@albertgaspar627]

typically, the clutch is best, tho you'd think its heavy. But even better is an electric fan you grab out of the junkyard for a front wheel drive car. BUT, make sure you grab the alternator. Our old muscle car alts don't have the juice for electric fans, massive stereo, and EFI. and they are heavier than the average denso unit.

[@johncholmes643]

Clutch fan will always win.

[@JB-zn1kx]

Subaru must have figured this out already... mine constantly "auto corrects" its level to have only a 1/2 quart in the pan every week,

[@chrisvanbommel5202]

Have you thought about showing the difference between a crankshaft that has and has not been knife edged? The benefits and the disadvantages of both options?

[@bryanrussell6679]

Something I've done on a lot of my vehicles is ditching the stock clutch driven fan for a two speed electric fan mounted in the factory radiator shroud. My butt dyno has always told me that it makes a difference, but I am curious as to how much the electric fan might tax the alternator. I hope the effort, and money, wasn't wasted, lol. I don't think it was.

[@heavymetalmadness666]

If you have a good battery it likely doesn't tax it much. Nothing worse the belt squeal from v belts and mechanical fan. A well thought up set up and the fan nearly ever runs.

[@static_bolt]

On the full episode they tested alternator drag with a inverter and a eletric heater to see how much power they lost pulling max load and it still made less of a difference then the fan does, which makes sense, the fan gets more and more drag with rpm

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Alternators are an instrument of the devil!! At least on high rpm engines. They short out or simply fail and cause all sorts of belt and bracket issues. If you can do without do so. I did three day road race meets without on a battery. One electric fan for brief use on the start line and driving back through the paddock. Holley pump, 7 or 8 engine starts plus brake lights and wipers etc as required But if life forces you into the things with electric fans etc at least halve the speed of the things and make certain you have a very good battery. Then the belt will probably stay on and the alternator may not fall off!! The big timers use thousand dollar plus alternators and carry a spare or two. Have a good battery isolator that turns everything off!

[@allanmcelroy9840]

electrical vs mechanical, I've always seen electrical break first

[@tahcogunworks]

Mechanical more efficient. Your electric puts heavy loads on the alternator. Anynhest in the fan motor and alternator created is hp loss.

[@GrantOakes]

The fan test omitted one important factor, airflow of the various fans. More airflow typically induces more drag but not always. The efficiency of the fan could make a difference too.

[@ddd228]

I use a plastic fan, but I cut off 1/2 of the blades. My cooling system is overkill ,besides that .Alloy radiator and a pusher fan. The clutch fan was very heavy!

[@philliphoward4065]

Also, for true accuracy you would have to supply airflow to the fan at road speeds. The fan will require less energy to spin when the air is being fed into it. This is the same with pumps and fans in industrial systems. They require significantly more power to get things moving than they do to keep things moving.

[@ThePaulv12]

Grant that fan part is an excerpt from a full vid that has been removed from KZbin. I don't know how many years ago I saw it, but it was at least 5 years. Anyhow, I remember the fan clutch (if not all the fans) was tried with and without the shroud. The shouds made a big difference to the power draw indicating they actually work. Iirc on the fan clutch the shroud increased loss by something like 9hp - but yeah it was awhile ago.

[@randombuilds8336]

No matter how big or aggressive a fan air only flows through the radiator at about 15mph. That's why the shroud is so important, even OEM fans move more air than a radiator can flow. Without the shroud the fan might move more air, but less of it goes through the radiator.

[@kempaswe4022]

Should test servo pump and ac compreasor

[@seanpaul8584]

I was hoping to see the oil pressure graph from the last run on the dyno.

[@johnrebus1641]

I'm guessing they don't want us to know. How much load was on the alternator & watt ( pun intended) was its rating?

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

They drained all the oil, so there was no oil pressure!!!

[@TheFoxygrandpa69]

So my rear main seal is actually a power adder. 1 more excuses not to fix it then.

[@BlueRice]

low on gas help with weight reduction too

[@Underpantsniper]

Its not leaking oil, its just sweating horsepower.

[@scottricklaroque7428]

@@Underpantsniper Not sweating hp, it's sweating drag.

[@ghostwarhammer007]

Ironicly its tru, the closer the engine is to damaging point the better it works

[@BlueRice]

@@ghostwarhammer007 to better word it, the tolerance is wider so less friction thus giving it better performance.

[@teamidris]

I loved my electric water pump for off-roading. It held the temperature perfectly no matter what, looked after the fan, warmed up quick and was great when stuck in a mud pit eating your own hot air. On a road/race car I wouldn’t fit one unless you have water cavitation issues.

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

You can directly calculate the hp use of an alternator based on its output.

[@Underpantsniper]

Sure, because alternators are 100% efficient right?

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

@@Underpantsniper no, they are not 100% efficient. They are about 55% efficient. This equates to 1 hp per 25 amps. I can go through all the math, if you would like, how to to correlate volts and amps to watts and and watts to hp with the efficiency loss. It's plenty accurate. Use google before you comment, you won't look so stupid.

[@Underpantsniper]

@@AnonyMous-jf4lc I look stupid... but still glad i commented so i can learn somthing new. Whats the average resistance of a alternator?

[@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds]

Still you loose less power with electric setup.

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

@@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds we are talking about the alternator...........

[@johnclary729]

I would have liked to see the fan test run with the engine coolant in the radiator, and the electric waterpump test run with the pump powered by the alternator like it would be in the real world.

[@technicholy1299]

At those load levels, the power difference would be within margin of error. A cheap alternator will put out 65 amps, which at 13.8 volts is a theoretical maximum of 897 watts. The water pump will draw around 5 amps, which comes out to to 69 watts at the same voltage. Short answer, it would be less than 10% of the difference of a fully loaded alternator, or so small, you can't tell the difference in dyno pulls alone.

[@astrawally8448]

​ @technicholy 10% assumes that the alternator is fully loaded BUT regardless, the cost of driving the electric fan/water pump will be additive to the load the alternator puts on. There is no "margin of error" at play here - this would really make sense if you were to think of the additional load being too much for a normal alternator, which I think is right. But if you're implying that there would be no additional load, then you are not correct. As an example, a Davis Craig Fan draws about 19amp and their water pumps about 10amps. At 14.4v alternator output wattage combined is 418 watts. Given the alternator itself about 50% efficient, and the power sapping of the pulleys and belts, along with the energy required to drive the fan on the front of the alternator, you're closer to 20% efficiency. So that's about thats about 2.1Kw watts or over 2.5 horsepower, so yes, there will be a small, but measurable load placed on the engine.

[@ddd228]

Drag racers have done an alternator cut off switch. Just unplug the field wire.

[@SavageBunny1]

You guys literally answered all the questions I've been asking for the past 5 years, thanks.

[@EmeraldEnchantments]

So when i race my car.... unplug my fans to reduce drag on alternator, drain a court of oil, dont warm up engine and race when it is 0°. I am gonna slay the streets with my aveo.

[@NaterAnderson]

As long as your timing belt holds

[@brucerudd69]

Quart

[@scarbourgeoisie]

If you were to drain a court of engine oil, you could end up guilty of destroying your engine. But we’re not Judging.

[@NaterAnderson]

@@scarbourgeoisie Settle down, Captain. its just an Aveo. It'll be fine

[@scarbourgeoisie]

@@NaterAnderson You might want to read the original comment, specifically where the word court was used in place of quart. I then followed up with a "judicial" play on words as a parody that totally went over your head...

[@thomasward4505]

And we have to remember an engine that runs hot loses quite a bit of power also. So the drag of a fan that uses more horsepower may also cool the engine better. There are very few aftermarket electric fans that pull as much air as any mechanical fan.

[@cobrajeff96]

An engine can feasibly be more efficient operating hotter. Having a higher pressure radiator / reservoir cap (say, 24 or even 32 psi) will increase the boiling point and the engine will make more power.

[@kevin-l7r7p]

good to see they're still going, used to watch this stuff on youtube

[@slyguyaction]

It’s from 2017

[@slyonerz]

Shart

[@FelixCarrasquel]

Again an old episode that we already saw when this was on KZbin

[@slyguyaction]

@bigpigslapper Oink, Me too. Cheap and get access to a LOT of great content. 👍🏻

[@joshuagathright670]

They're on amazon now on the motortrend channel.

[@magnus5356]

Great info! 30 ponies for a fan was considerably more than I thought!

[@jamesplotkin4674]

Imagine how hot the belt runs.

[@rebeccakenworthy4623]

I used to live for this show... Haven't seen an ep. since MTOD

[@jeffjankiewicz5100]

Yea Discovery wrecks everything.

[@girthquake1413]

8:02 since David says he reads all comments... The EV crowd can actually help here with improving alternator performance. Alternators are essentially AC motors working on electromagnetism- there aren't any of the efficient rare-earth magnets inside, just iron that's energized into acting as one in the center of the stator (rotating bit). If you yank an alternator open and remove the iron core for an internal permanent magnet (search handbuilt windmills, people do this all the time for cheap power and I can post links) you increase it's total efficiency which means less drag, less power losses, and more consistent power in general. Since replacing the magnet only needs standard gear pullers and shop presses along with a $20 magnet, any drag racer squeezin out every inch of performance could do it.

[@thatsonebadhatharry8610]

I heard you can make an electric motor out of an alternator. Can you use an alternator both ways? Make power to charge your battery when needed then as a electric motor to add power to the engine as you go down the 1/4mi.?

[@girthquake1413]

@@thatsonebadhatharry8610 Yes. In fact, they already exist and are OEM now- look up "Internal Starter/Generator" or ISG; Buicks have them and they're ~20 horsepower or so. The Gordon Murray T.50 also makes use of one, sort of.

[@thatsonebadhatharry8610]

@@girthquake1413 Just adding a little power is better than losing power to run the alternator. If it could be done on the cheap or at least for as little as possible it might be worth taking a look at. Any plus is better than a negative.

[@dukecraig2402]

Post those links.

[@jdoggybizzle]

I'd like to see an electric vs. mechanical fan showdown. I've considered something similar for sport compacts to compare slimline vs. OEM. Most of us have to run electric fans so it would be nice to see if you can pick up extra HP just by changing electric fans, especially for us sub-300whp guys

[@NittiGriti]

thats what i thought this video was...and showed one fan and no fan so im fukt

[@XJon2011]

Just look at the 91-93 Chevy Caprice with the mech fan vs the electric on the Cadillac Fleetwood. A solid 15-20 hp difference. Mech fans move a lot of air but electrics don't have as much drag on the motor.

[@jeffblackmon288]

Then you drag on the alternator, lol. Yes, I wanted to see that, too.

[@bradgriffith4231]

Yes, you can gain a couple HP with electric fans, but nothing cools the engine better or makes the air conditioning work best over using an OEM type "extreme duty" fan clutch, fan, & shroud. EM did a test & the OEM setup was actually the most efficient & robbed the least HP over all aftermarket "high performance" fans. Personally, I want my expensive hot rod motor to stay cool, rather than chasing a couple HP at the risk of overheating!

[@MVPisME383]

Electric fan robs zero hp other than the load put on the alternator, how can it it's not attached to it

[@matt_1969ChevyC1o]

Excellent video! So many guys take the mechanical fans off, yet so few know how to engineer a reliable and capable electric replacement 👍🏻

[@bradgriffith4231]

Ron Davis, of Ron Davis Performance Radiators(he's made Indy car & other racing radiators for decades) told me 35 year ago that electric fans don't move enough air for everday driving in hot climates for any serious HP engine. He also said it requires at least 17# of pressure in the cooling system to force the water tight enough to the engine to efficiently extract heat from the engine. I run a 19# radiator cap with a Hayden Extreme Duty fan clutch & stock GM fan on my 409" SBC(which all the know-it-alls say have an overheating problem) hot rod & it never ever runs above 190*, even in the very hot desert where I live, half way between LV & Death Valley.

[@deltapag5051]

Delta PAG Brushless, massive airflow, very low amps

[@scotthamm7786]

I'm not sure the question was answered: What is the power loss of an alternator running an electric fan? Electric water pump? Both? It takes x amount of power to turn a fan at y rpm, regardless of where it's coming from. Same for the water pump. If you transfer the power source from the belt/crankshaft, that power has to come from somewhere → the alternator (which is driven from the crankshaft). There is efficiency loss by transferring energy sources. BUT, since the fan and pump wouldn't run as a function of engine speed anymore, does it help or hurt power?

[@chumleye1112]

Exactly, you don't get something (electric fan turning) for nothing (it takes power to turn that fan hence more drag on the alternator). I wouldn't be surprised if everyone on the electric fan horse aren't really getting the HP they think they are.

[@mbaladon]

Thank you for testing engines in a real life scenario! You don't drive around without those things on and it's really interesting to see which ones eat the most of the power. You still missed a few things though. AC Compressor, Power Steering Pump, Air Filter and some sort of Street Exhaust. Put this all together and the numbers will come DOWN

[@johnbanaruski2899]

Actually I was watching a motor trend video where they were dyno testing a car, and actually made extra horsepower by putting on an air cleaner because it “makes the airflow smoother” or sum like that. 🤷‍♂️

[@bowenwilliam1986]

Who uses ac

[@bradgriffith4231]

Some manufactureres are switching to electric driven PS pumps & AC compressors for better fuel economy & performance. A K&N type gauze filter will flow more air but they suck at filtration, when you compare the microns a K&N filters to a Wix paper element filter. K&N filters require an outerwear or foam "prefilter" to keep the ultra fine dust particulates from contaminating the engine & mass airflow sensors. Desert racers never run K&Ns now, & have found that a big cannister type filer with massive filtration area is the best setup, especially if the engine is turb charged. Same goes for diesels in high dust conditions. The dust where I live is called "poof dirt" because it turns to a talcum powder type consistency as soon as you do anything that disturbs the top crust layer.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

If I've noticed my car running a little more crisp than usual, I stop and check the oil and usually there's nothing showing on the stick🤣

[@johnhancock7063]

I've always added a switch inline on the remote wire on stereo amplifiers, installed one in my buddies Cadillac that has a fuel mileage gauge. When off the mileage is around 20mpg, when turned on the mileage decreases to 15. Shows how much drag the alternator has with different electric loads.

[@samsonian]

All I know is: no matter the fan, they’ll eat fingers equally well.

[@chehystpewpur4754]

actually. an absolute gem that everyone should try atleast once in their life. bmw e39 540i and 740i have the 4.4 v8 and its a belt fan. if its operating properly it will stop and cause no harm to your hand at idle. if the fan clutch goes bad it sticks on and the fan will not stop and chop your hands off. the way to check the fan for service is to stick your hand in and see if it survives. or a rolled up newspaper and see if it shreds. electric fans are also pretty safe so long as its not up to temp.

[@markdavid4897]

After two electric fans failed in a three-year period, both times while traveling more than 500 miles from home, I had had enough of the efficiency of electric fans. Because the 1999 6-cylinder inline 4.0 liter Jeep Grand Cherokee had enough room for it, I went for reliability and installed the mechanical clutch fan to the threaded shaft on the water pump, and have never had another problem with engine cooling in more than 200K miles. In my opinion, a critical function of engine cooling, should not be compromised to save a few HP.

[@LimitedGunnerGM]

Did I miss something? The beginning mentioned 4 fans. I only saw 2 tested. I’d like to see all 4 of the runs in an overlay.

[@malachimalone1820]

It’s because this is considered a free clip from this show

[@kolinstallman3788]

reposted from an older longer episode.

[@silentbravo]

@@kolinstallman3788 Yes I definitely watched this before, maybe a few years ago. So they reposted it with half the content and a new name, probably deleted the old full video or locked it behind the MTOD paywall....

[@riprob93]

Same here! I thought I was going crazy or something? 4 fans introduced, and only 2 test? I'm guessing the viscous clutch won.

[@craphittingthefan2360]

Did I miss something, what happen to the blue fan with the steel thin blades?

[@jamesrezza7854]

I love your videos and testing all sorts of combos, but the videos are jumping all over. What was the oil pressure on the last test? What were the first two fans results?

[@supersportimpalass]

A culmination of a bunch of old videos. Definitely worth subscribing to the MotorTrend channel for the full episodes.

[@kencohagen4967]

Ok, but keep in kind that some of that drag can be offset by the air being pushed into the fan with vehicle speed. Or relative wind. The wind that is artificially created with movement. At that point Steve Brulet is absolutely correct, the fan shroud would help focus the relative wind through it and onto the fan. Is there a way to measure that? Now for drag racing the alternator has no effect if you run an alternator cut off switch. You switch off the alternator while making a pass, and switch it back on immediately after the pass. It works! Now for the oil pan if your afraid of dropping the oil to low, just runs an oil reservoir to make sure it doesn’t run out. And make sure your running a windage tray in any pan. That’s good for 15 hp in a Mopar 318. More on a 340 or 360. So, whats it org on the 454?

[@bradgriffith4231]

They must have a shroud for the fan to work efficiently & it's best if the fan has a bit of the blade outside the shroud to prevent cavitation.

[@steveskouson9620]

The amount of power that the alternator uses, depends on the load placed on it. The charge state of the battery will change, as the alt charges it back up, after starting. You also need to figure out what else you're running as well. Headlights, heater/AC blower, and radio. Anything run by a switch, will cause more drain on the alt. (Which will use more HP.) steve

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

Yup, a lot less resistance with less load.

[@nathansonnen9407]

1hp per 25 amps.

[@jamesvw769]

Not really the alt is no harder to spin under load or not.

[@benkrom2737]

Joe Gibbs back when he ran Pontiacs was dominating. They confiscated their engines and found zero rule violations but had 25hp more than anyone else. They determined they used 0w-50 qualifying oil for entire race instead of 20w-50

[@Snakes_N_Crafts]

shouldn't 0w-50 and 20w-50 perform the exact same at operating temperature though? first number is cold operation second is hot.

[@charlespartak2435]

@@Snakes_N_Crafts the numbers represent viscosity...which is defined as simply as "resistance to flow" 0 being no resistance and 20 being somewhat or quite resistant since 0w50 flows like water and the 20w50 flows like warm honey. that alone should answer your question. bearing clearance specs have changed immensely over the decades , cast iron blocks have given way to aluminum , so the heat sink ability has changed. tolerances are much tighter so oil viscosity must be low so it can flow .

[@charlespartak2435]

@@borismcfinnigan3430 I know you googled it yourself before asking me such a dumbass answer but here...i did it for you. What is a simple definition of viscosity? Viscosity is a measure of a fluid's resistance to flow. A fluid with large viscosity resists motion because its molecular makeup gives it a lot of internal friction. A fluid with low viscosity flows easily because its molecular makeup results in very little friction when it is in motion.

[@alanphillips4431]

For the fan there are 2 factors causing parasitic loss. The first is as the engine speeds up the main loss will be from your rotational mass, I.e. you want to minimize the polar moment of inertia. To do this you want to minimize the fans mass and minimize the radius of the fan (I=mr^2). At speed the loss most likely will shift to the drag resistance of the fan blades themselves. This is more of a fluid dynamics problem but you basically want the fan to move the least amount of air necessary to keep your engine cool. So the answer to which fan to use is..... an electric.

[@randywl8925]

I like the way project farm does tests and sums up everything at the end in a graph. Woulda been interesting to test all 4 fans shown instead of just two.

[@charlespartak2435]

i thought the same, they cut the test a bit short for 4 to only 2 . I want to know why only 1 clutch was used , why not clutch with all 4 fans , no clutch all 4 fans, pusher vs puller fans. electric fan in different available cfms. they could test fans all day .

[@ViewThis.]

Not so great. at 0:06 you're showing 4 different fan types and only tested 2. I guess we have to pay to watch the motor trend channel to see the other 2 tested?

[@misters2837]

Yep!

[@electricdeckhead3083]

it doesn't cost much, especially when you split it between 3 or 4 mates and share the code. wink wink.

[@paulhotson5820]

Metal blades are best.

[@ViewThis.]

@@paulhotson5820 Yes I think so too. I found another video on youtube that tests the metal blades.

[@gregorytimmons4777]

Short attention span theater. The oil level test is worthwhile but i'd be interested in alternator pulley swaps to see how that affects horsepower and battery charge.

[@rondye9398]

Bought a 90 Mustang 5.0 that the owner said overheated. He was an aviation mechanic in the AF. (retired) He said he changed everything to get it to cool. New alum. radiator, thermostat and added a 'performance' metal flex fan. He wasn't sure if he got the fan on correctly, so had tried turning it around a couple times with no result. Bought the car and added a stock clutch fan in reverse rotation and it never overheated. You cannot simply turn a standard rotation fan around for a reverse rotation. That's what was on it. Great bargain price!

[@philipjfry6754]

Somthing most people overlook on an engine only dyno is that in practice the Alternator on a car provides more voltage for spark 13-14v vs 12v Ive seen motorcycles on the dyno with alternators removed loose HP because of a weaker spark at high RPM because at 10k the 4 individual coil packs needed much more Voltage. On a Suzuki GSXR 1000 over 10,000 rpm without an alternator it lost 14hp on a chassis dyno

[@robertrushing9990]

Interesting test.. I had a 2002 I finiti M45 V8 4dr sedan. The engine fan was a hydraulic drive off of the power steering pump. The bypass flow built into the fan drive was such that you could hold the fan still and start the car! So. Much like a solid mounted engine fan, it was turning as long as the engine was running. I live in AZ and never had any overheating issues. Even after 150000 miles. Great set-up!

[@bjoe385]

The cooling system on the British Rail Class 43 locomotive takes 230 horsepower to drive at full capacity.

[@bjoe385]

@Allen S is being a jerk for no reason a hobby of yours or a full time job.

[@lumpyzx2645]

That's a lot! Then again those locomotive engines probably don't even notice it, and although it may be useless information for me at least, I still found it interesting, so clearly the one dude is incorrect

[@bjoe385]

@@lumpyzx2645 well the engine has 2280 BHP so only 10%. But still huge parasitic loads.

[@roywhitman7109]

I had recently purchased a new aluminum radiator from Champion. I asked the representative if they offered an electric fan option for my application. The gentleman told me to use the clutch fan. That was good enough for me.

[@rcadd1ct]

Ahh, when they could sit together without masks. Those were the days. :)

[@Thumper68]

You still can since no masks filter as small as virus. And the survival rate is higher then 99.5% lol! They say it’s the same risk as driving 7500 miles in a car so every year pretty much every person who drives puts there selves at twice as much risk in driving miles...

[@vtecbanger3180]

They kiss too

[@koollee]

I wouldnt doubt that.

[@zorpit]

Good info Fry burger :). I think us gearheads have known that fans, etc. will drop some power. Didn't think the fan that much. However. I'm running a big inch hemi on the street. The last thing I need is an electric fan or water pump failure and then your motor is toast. More wires, bigger alternator, bigger battery, etc. So I make 800hp with a stroker big inch motor to offset the parasitic loss from the mech. fan and water pump. Safety and simplicity first.

[@merylpelosi8485]

Conversely, does the most horsepower robbing fan move the most CFM? You realize that going down the road, the fan drag is partially negated by air being forced through the radiator. Above 30 MPH, the fan really isn't doing much.

[@bradgriffith4231]

The answer is no. No aftermarket fan moves as much CFM as a factory fan & fan clutch & EM test showed the stock fan & clutch assembly was also the lowest drag on one of their Motortrend TV broadcasts

[@762gunr]

745 watts per hp without drag so 80 amps at 13.8 volts = 1,104 watts/1.48 horspower.

[@drdjh2003]

Should be a good episode. Have a feeling I’m going to validate my electric fans.

[@E-Z_Gaming]

Not really, they put a load on the alternator which is very parasitic

[@jaredshaffer3901]

@@E-Z_Gaming Except you don't run them all the time.

[@E-Z_Gaming]

@@jaredshaffer3901 you don’t run a clutch fan all the time...

[@E-Z_Gaming]

@@ZboeC5 that’s not how it works, the alternator mostly runs the car. The battery is almost always just for starting the car. Spinning these alternator isn’t hard, spinning it with a current draw on it is very Hard. Did you watch the episode?

[@jaredshaffer3901]

@@E-Z_Gaming Who said the OP had a clutch fan they replaced? Plus, I didn't say anything about the clutch fans. I simply pointed out that the parasitic draw of an electric fan isn't a valid point because they can be turned off (and typically are shut off at highway speeds or greater.)

[@MVPisME383]

I wonder if the air coming through the grill helps

[@mgunning7362]

I love that you are doing these type of comparisons on an engine dyno. Answers things we've always wondered about. However the fan test was flawed. Obviously you only showed 2 of the 4 fans but most importantly you did not consider air flow of each fan. What if the least HP used fan had zero air flow? May as well not run a fan in that case. Would have like to have seen the factory clutch fan tested. I think they're best

[@jameshankins6111]

They showed all of that on mototrend actually this was just snip bits

[@bradgriffith4231]

The problem with engine dynos, or even chassis dynos, is they're not capable of duplicating real world driving conditions, so carb jetting & ignition timing aren't accurate when the engine is subjected to actual driving conditions, whether on the steet or the track. My buddy, who has an All Motor, single carb on race gas, 7 second / 168 mph door slammer('86 Olds Cutlas), & I both know several people who had their race engines dyno tuned & their cars slowed down at the strip. They had to change everything back to their previous tune-up.

[@jesusisreal3209]

was hoping y'all were going to do external oil drain back

[@donaldappelhof2059]

A flex fan can cause a over heating problem especially in pulling a load. Trust me!

[@69shovlhed89]

Depends on the fan design, how it fits the shroud, how fast the pulley turns, and size of the radiator. I have a 3 core radiator, 19” stainless flex fan that just barely fits in the shroud. Fan spacer puts the fan well into the shroud. I run a 30% underdrive crank pulley, and my 400+ hp 350 sbc never ever gets up to 180f even with a 185 thermostat. I was surprised that they got more power at a lower temperature; all the bench racers used to think hotter = more hp. I guess we can all assume now that higher temperatures are better for emissions, but not for peak power.

[@donaldappelhof2059]

@@69shovlhed89 I have a friend with a 72 Ford 250 and every time he was towing his trailer over the grapevine going slow with the motor revved up it would over heat because the flex fan flattened out and no longer moved enough air. It took him a while to figure it out. This happened years ago! Back in the day.

[@69shovlhed89]

@@donaldappelhof2059 must have been a crappy flex fan. the ones with the thin triangular blades suck. mine has full size blades but then also towing is a completely different situation. all that extra weight so that he has to drop it down to a lower gear. i'd probably run an old steel 6 blade truck fan if i was towing.

[@surferdjnj]

Regarding the fans, wouldn't you need to duplicate the engine compartment to keep air in that space as it blows towards the engine. Once it passes the shroud it's free to go in any direction in the dyno room as opposed to when there's a hoot right above which helps keep the air moving in the right direction and not any direction?

[@master6435]

I remember when these engines masters vid were free

[@t-rex2502]

just hearing those v8s roar put a smile on my face

[@willkincaid5841]

This was pretty cool to watch, I wonder what that oil pressure map would look like on the street. I mean with a dig lauch and going though a few gears. I understand the windage issue fully, i know the have baffels and trap doors and so on. But taking 3 or 4 quarts out of performance pan like that would concern Me at higher rpm. Maybe I'm just over thinking it lol. Awesome video with great results.

[@thomashodges6104]

One thing to keep in mind. How much oil builds up in the heads ?? Mainly at the higher rpms.

[@BARBARRIER]

Old one. But good. Engine masters is on season 5 episode 79 on motor trend. A lot of good information on here.

[@ericfitzpatrick5319]

In a 7qt pan, would 5qts in the pan, and 1 qt in the filter be good?

[@WhuDhat]

This was genuinely the most interesting and "scientific" I have watched yet. Happy holidays and new year motor trend

[@FSHSKainon]

I was building off an LT1 block, worked at a Pontiac dealer and found a NOS Factory flex fan on a shelf!!

[@Maxxis1941]

So, long story short: Drain oil, remove fan, alternator, water pump, run ice as coolant and only drag someone when it's sub-freezing temperatures at the track. My 1972 Pinto will now do 300mph with 2,000hp? Cool.

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

ROFLMFAO!!! Goddamn, I was thinking something along those line too!! ha ha ha

[@davidkeeton6716]

Sort of. I watched a guy running pretty consistent 8.20 1/8th mile passes in his Mustang one late afternoon. I walked up and said, try this, it'll cost nothing but a bit of time. Cool the car off to ambient temperature, about 80 degrees. Pull it to the line building as little heat as possible. Of course do your normal burnout. See what it does. He came back jumping up and down, shouting and yelling. He was so happy. The car went 7.98. First time ever in the 7s. You're welcome.

[@mrmoparrr]

What was the Clutch Fan results?

[@tahcogunworks]

The stock fan with clutch is always superior. It completely disengages when it's not needed. And very efficient when hot.

[@bradgriffith4231]

EXACTLY!!!!

[@mark-1234]

A factory clutch fan, one that fully disengages when not needed, is obviously the best. (Inexpensive aftermarket ones often never disengage.)

[@notinterested5787]

Static dyno test with a low oil level does not account for oil movement during acceleration, cornering or stopping. What is that oil doing during a one G launch, or a one and a half g stop rate?

[@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds]

Right these are just like lab tests to show there is a power increase if you reduce windage, not something you want to do in a real car that is tossed around. Also the extra oil is beneficial to not have the oil overheat. Just like how transmissions pans with more oil capacity helps the fluid temp stay down.

[@1darryloflife]

350 Chevs with the early heads have a couple of inherent faults, one that the middle of the cylinder head rests 2 exhaust valves next to each other, the other that the inlet manifold at the thermostat coolant outlet needs to bleed into the waterpump . This also depends upon the type of water pump being used. These 2 problems lead to heat soak which can cause a loss in HP due to a loss of vacuum at the valve seat. The electric water pump is not very good pushing coolant up a hill or through a small hole. A modified factory pump is much better although the factory pumps suffer from different size runners into the cylinder block. Heat soak is the biggest enemy of the small block.

[@KanakaMaoli1]

Did I miss something, So how did the clutch fan do??

[@BOOT]

It did the best according to the old carcraft article I have, 485hp with and 496hp no fan. Still depends on your pulley ratios

[@AndyGeesGarage]

For me the biggest reason to run an electric water pump and fan isn’t for hp but to eliminate tossing belts at 7000 rpm

[@reinhardvandermerwe6585]

I would have loved to see the airflow differences between those 4 fans too.. Some applications need cooling more than the 5hp saving between 2 fan types.. But NO electric fan will pump air like a belt-driven fan. Period.

[@69shovlhed89]

Well thats just not true. a pair of big electric fans mounted directly on the radiator moves alot of air, and turn a much higher rpm that the belt driven fan. virtually every manufacturer has switched to electric fans because they are so efficient. just the same i will always run a belt driven fan and water pump on my old chevy. but i scrapped the a/c and power steering and run a small crank pulley. still never gets too hot.

[@tbombdabomb]

I wanted to see how the clutch fan did

[@BigGroupHug]

I feel like this study has been performed by every OEM and yet there are no white papers available

[@MrTheHillfolk]

See if you can find some older (late 90s early 2000s) Kohler generator cut sheets. Say from 20-200kw. Diesel or gaseous. Im pretty sure they gave a fan cfm and hp rating for calculations into airflow requirements for say installing it in a building. It's been 15yrs since I've looked at one though. Heh, I do remember one spec in particular because it's cool. They rated the industrial Ford 460 turbo at 160hp @1800. Think about it , that's pretty rippin!

[@sunking2001]

So...which fan tested out the best? You don't have the results in the video.

[@LSxHunter]

$10 Junkyard Ford Taurus fans seem like a worthwhile horsepower upgrade to me 🤷‍♂️

[@TheLionAndTheLamb777]

True if it's on a relay and a thermo-electric switch and not just on all the time.

[@elituko]

Water temperature can make a big difference in power. I was at the drag strip one 90 degree evening and heard some guys talking about their Mustang and how they really wished they could get their 1/8th mile down from 7.22 into the 6s. I walked up and asked what their starting line temp was. They said usually 170 by the time they were done with the burn out and staging. I said ok, try something that won't cost anything but a bit of time and see what happens if you bring your water temp at startup down to ambient air temperature, so 90 degrees that evening. They ran a 6.94, and I swear their feet weren't hardly touching the ground, they were jumping up and down so much. Just a little trick someone taught me. But it's really hard to do that between rounds. Now back when some drag strips had water for you and a trough to park over, yeah, you can swap out the water and cool it back down.

[@gEtar87]

Today I learned that you don't want to warm up your motor before racing it

[@sienile]

Heat robs power. Unless the heat is needed, you don't want it. Diesels also need to be warmed up before a race.

[@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds]

Also friction robs power and hot oil flows and lubricates better than cold oil. So it has to be warm enough but not that the intake soaks heat. Also a cold car runs poorly at first till it warms up the combustion chambers etc. Heat is needed to makes power because it loosens the fluids and preps the engine to make that run too.

[@alannapartin336]

130 degrees

[@marvin984]

Did you use a baffle tray on any of the oil pan test ? Low oil pressure could be a real problem . Most performance builders use trays in their builds . You seemed to also leave out a lot of test results .

[@3vil8unny]

Love these guys so much knowledge in that one room I would love to tap in eh.

[@LeonJudah-ux3mf]

I wonder if a higher torque motor wouldn't care as much about the fan drag but that is a huge difference 😮

[@james10739]

They are finally putting this stuff back up I think they put it all behind a pay wall

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Oh, I didn't notice,as I was busy watching the forced ads during the video. But yes ,all the good stuff you gotta pay for and they trickle some out here and there. (this ad laden vid)

[@arronjohnston742]

@@MrTheHillfolk get youtube ad blocker no more ads

[@MrTheHillfolk]

@@arronjohnston742 I dont think they have that for mobile , at least I didn't think they did.

[@NBC_NCO]

I have an idea for you guys. Instead of using a turbo to pressurize the intake manifold. Run the pressure side back into the exhaust after the exhaust side. So my question is would it create Scavenging effect?

[@jomanout5866]

Not exactly, on paper it seems like it would at first glance because wastegates are required to control the amount of boost the turbo produces, an on purpose exhaust leak to prevent boost pressure from climbing too high. However, the extra air that is forced into the engine from the turbo gets ignited with fuel and spent out of the exhaust side of the turbo. Well, if you piped the intake side of the turbo back into the exhaust after the exhaust side of the turbo, there would be no extra air being forced into the engine, so the engine would be naturally aspirated and thus pumping naturally aspirated levels of air. My guess is that it would make it harder for the pistons to pump the exhaust out unless in your setup the exhaust piping was very short and the pressure side being fed into the exhaust had an easy way to escape. I would suggest looking into 2 stroke expansion chamber exhaust scavenging effect for ideas, you might be able to figure something out more than I can at the moment

[@NBC_NCO]

@@jomanout5866 Ahhh....Thank you. I'm not building anything except custom wood products. It's just an idea that's been in my head. Basically it's like perpetual motion.

[@Koumajutsu]

I disagree that the electric pump has no parasitic loss, as the electrical load is converted to mechanical load by the alternator

[@fivespeed3026]

Years ago I had a Flex-lite fan on my 5.0 Mustang and never had any problems. I drove it for years like that. It makes sense that if you’re running high RPM’s but not traveling at high speeds, then there won’t be enough air to cool the radiator.

[@chrismktgpsu]

It would be interesting if they would do a test to see the difference in oil temperatures based on spirited Street driving with the different oil pan quantities. My guess is having 7+ quarts of oil makes a dramatic difference in cooler oil Temps as long as you keep it below 5000 rpms.

[@smackledorfmcsween]

I'm just here to gain years of life from reading the comments and laughing.

[@dennisbest4979]

You did not use a windage tray in either oil pan, scraps the oil off the crank and reduces oil foaming.

[@ronymolina1047]

I stopped watching this channel when they took out RoadKill. From what i can see, most fans/viewers just pop in and out to see if you guys are listening to whats actually on demand. I guess the answer is, not yet.

[@generalsixty2133]

At full throttle you can cut power to your electric fans by simply programming your Holley EFI that way if you got it.

[@b.c4066]

And your electric pumps. At least for 20 seconds or so at a time.

[@BOOT]

Or using a throttle switch, like used for nitrous

[@tedm6618]

They showed which fan was worst but not best :(

[@AJvsEverything]

Electric fan...same as the electric water pump...then the only physical draw on the motor is the alternator to run both electric motors...

[@NBSV1]

For a mechanical fan the clutch style is the best. They have the least drag when the clutch is disengaged but will still lock up to move more air when the temps rise. The other fans are always trying to move air and always a parasitic drag.

[@buickkkkkk1]

This reminds me of the story of Charles Lindbergh when he was able to get like 300 of 500 more mile range out of a P-38 Lighting , all the tech's told him that the engs would burn up , but they did not , and Yamotos plan was shot down.................

[@jlh7109]

This is the Engine Masters “only fans” video 😂 i cant stop laughing

[@koollee]

What is Only Fans(? ... lol

[@racer4x930]

you guys should do a power to wieght shoot out. taking things off a car after every run. then tally the weight you took off per improvment of times coming up with a power gained per wieght formula

[@charlespartak2435]

they have been showing the '56 race car being lightened .

[@porscheguy09]

Moral of the story, use an electric fan and accessories when possible.

[@krzysztofczarnecki8238]

Well, no. That would drain the same amount of power through the alternator, plus some inefficiencies from it being converted to electricity and back to rotation again. The only advantage here would be that those accessories can be turned on or off by the computer instead of being attached permanently and maybe having a thermal clutch in case of the fan.

[@porscheguy09]

@@krzysztofczarnecki8238 electric accessories may draw more electricity but not more horsepower. It only takes a set amount of horsepower to turn the alternator. The more electricity being drawn from the battery doesn’t make the alternator harder to rotate. The only concern is making sure you have a alternator that rated to put out enough power to run everything.

[@krzysztofczarnecki8238]

@@porscheguy09 You ever heard of back EMF? The current that flows through an alternator under load creates a magnetic field that brakes the rotor, and the stronger the load the stronger the current.

[@porscheguy09]

@@krzysztofczarnecki8238 yes but an alternator on a car has a maximum output and at it’s maximum output it takes a set amount of horsepower to rotate. If your alternator takes 5 horsepower to rotate under maximum load then that’s the most it’s ever going to take away from your engine. A lower load and it might only take 3 horsepower but it’s not going to require more and more horsepower since it can only produce a set amount of power. An electric fan and water pump are easily run by most alternators that are only going to require a certain amount of horsepower. You will save horsepower by running an alternator that takes 5 horsepower under max load versus running an alternator which you need regardless plus a mechanical water pump and fan which rob even more horsepower as shown in the video.

[@onfin3al6]

Does a windage tray in the oil pan make a difference ? I have seen some very close to the crank , that's a test I would like to see . I believe the oil pans used did not have this device , 1 or 2 quarts low don;t sound good to me .

[@bigredracer7848]

I needed a fan for my truck I had a 454 and a 64 Chev so all I had was a Ford related from a 6 cylinder and I put that on there I thought it was okay I drove it around for a couple of months well I got heavy on the throttle and all of a sudden the motor went dead and I looked down across the hood I seen a hole in it the lights went out and everything coolant spraying everywhere cut the radiator hose and they have cut the corner off the battery it went through the hood and 42 ft in the air it's stuck in somebody's house and I never told him and I just kept driving well rolling

[@xogmaster]

LMFAO

[@bigredracer7848]

@@xogmaster LOL thanks

[@stevepasswater9398]

Couple of suggestions for future episodes. I just watched the 426 vs the 440 six pack episode and was wondering if you played with cam timing at the timing gear if you couldn’t have seen a closer result. Thinking that advancing the cam on the Hemi 2-4 degrees wouldn’t minimized the torque advantage of the 440. Also maybe retarding the cam timing on the 440 2-4 degrees should bolster the top end. Also would be great to see a shootout of stock iron manifolds vs shorty headers vs long tube headers vs step tubed headers. Just some thoughts.

[@Hobo-Henry]

this is just a rerun from motortrendondemand, and it's cut up

[@claytoncartozian8072]

Did I miss the results of the clutch fan? It seems like there were a few other results that were either brushed over or skipped as well, otherwise love enginemasters videos

[@riprob93]

I was asking the same question? I thought I was going crazy or something? He starts out by saying there are 4 fans, but only does 2 test, and doesn't say which one won? I'm thinking the viscous clutch is the winner, but he didn't say for sure.

[@MaxiBiscardi]

why not using an electric fan like the rest of the normal world?

[@dennisschmitter7310]

This is actually very informative!! Who knew. Great knowledge right here. Thanks Dulcich!!