Don't fall for this totally legal scam

[@Riya-ho5zv]

"Since this is germany it's likely you got some physical paperwork" This is the most german thing ever, yes. As long as there's paper there will be germany

[@John_Weiss]

I have a joke: "Why does embezzlement never happen in a German bank?" "Because it would mess up all the paperwork!"

[@ImKinoNichtSabbeln]

Except the younger German generations click blindly on everything that their mobile phone spits put, or blindly follow whatever some jerk on stackoverflow blurbs out, or ChatGPT tells them to do. Euphemistically spoken, they spare their brains the labour of understanding, saving their time for the next TikTok-hype/influencer, etc. We all failed the Enlightenment.

[@SianaGearz]

You can also do just about all of these things by fax. But not by e-mail or online.

[@SantaMuerte1813]

In Germany it is likely that when you take your newborn home from the hospital, there is already a letter waiting for them from the department of finances assigning them their tax ID

[@John_Weiss]

@@SantaMuerte1813 The famous German author, Goethe, had a day job as a lawyer/legal clerk. His main work was closing out old cases … from the Holy Roman Empire … _from the 14th Century._ Like I've said, in the German mind, if there isn't paperwork backing it, it isn't real, never happened, or isn't possible.

[@TheGreatSteve]

I got a letter through the post when the building society I used was sold, saying I was owed money from the sale and that for a fee they'd get me the money. Instead, I took that letter into the building society, and they hooked me up with the cash for free.

[@Nerobyrne]

that's pretty hilarious ^^

[@ketchup901]

Why do they say it like they're a Nigerian prince?

[@namenamename390]

As my elementary school teacher said; "Wer lesen kann, ist klar im Vorteil".

[@klauspokorny4381]

Hier geht es aber wohl weniger um lesen können, sondern eher um lesen wollen.

[@rarbiart]

that's called "victim blaming". like blaming people for downloading open source programs from unofficial websites where it's bundled with phishing stuff.

[@martinc.720]

@@rarbiart They are not "victims". The website basically says "You don't need to use our services. Bye bye". But people don't read and just pay whatever fee they're asked. They are not bothered with reading a bit. Their fault.

[@to_loww]

@@martinc.720 Why does their service even exist then?

[@gogollama]

​@@martinc.720 oh, yes "Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil". That particularly applies to the guys reading and interpreting the laws in order to find their little loophole to build an absolutely useless online service around. Merely banking on people being rushed, stressed or too unexperienced in navigating online life to catch wind of something fishy going on. The website brings no service to the customer but charging their money to the owner's bank account. They _are falling victim_ to this provervial trap and this _is_ blaming the victims

[@DFYX]

It's also very common that when you order something from outside the EU (especially the USA and China) and it's held by customs, you'll get a letter from some company that's loosely associated with whatever logistics company handled the international part of the delivery. They will offer to handle the paperwork for a fee between 30 and 50€. Now, German import tax is a bit complicated but not THAT complicated. Usually you can go to the official website, pick the type of product you ordered from a list of categories (like "clothing, cotton" or "computer parts"), enter the amount you paid and be done with it in less then five minutes.

[@Heimbasteln]

Maybe if you have done it quite a few times, it took me around 30 minutes the last few times I had to do it.

[@jonaszswietomierz8017]

There's a scam in Spain involving receiving a fake SMS from the Post Office saying that you have been charged customs duties and that you have to pay them at some fishy website. In reality, the Post service actually handles imports is that it pays the taxes for you and they you only have to pay back the delivery driver in cash once you retreive your package (or at your local office). And you can pay only cash because there's no contactless option, which is a very Spanish thing indeed.

[@HagenvonEitzen]

@@jonaszswietomierz8017 So the Post service perhaps paid a decent amount of taxes upfront when you as receiver may still refuse to accept the package (or perhaps you may lack existence to begin with)??

[@grmpf]

​@@Heimbasteln As someone who bills by the hour, I see this as the one narrow use case for services like this. Why would I spend 30 minutes on a website that annoys me when I could spend the same amount of time working on something that doesn't annoy me, get paid for that, pay a service €30 for the annoying part, and still have some money left? Unless, of course, the "service" really does basically nothing and it's just as time-consuming as the official route itself.

[@scifino1]

@@HagenvonEitzen I'd guess that the risk of that happening is too small to outweigh the convenience to the consumers, so the government covers that with tax money.

[@alphax4785]

It's the same thing in the US, Google search puts third party websites above the government's website and suddenly you're paying $50+ for inputting the same information you had to input on the government site.

[@galdavonalgerri2101]

Unfortunately, that's exactly the way how Google treats you. You are not Google's valued customer, you are the ware they earn money with.

[@rarbiart]

"if you want to hide a tree, bring it into the woods".

[@MiTheMer]

In this case you build the forest around the tree (the official website).

[@rarbiart]

@@MiTheMer That's correct, too. (i meant the fact how they hid the mention of not being the official site and that it's free over there... in all the other fine print above and below)

[@Mrshoujo]

*take it into *bring it with you

[@martinc.720]

@@Mrshoujo You know exactly what they mean

[@holger_p]

@@martinc.720 we will never upgrade our language, when we stop it at " you know what I mean "

[@fonkbadonk5370]

I've seen the reddit thread this must have originated from, and was in disbelief by how strongly you were opposed to there. Thank you for doing such a great service!

[@gab_gallard]

Not using Reddit anymore, otherwise I would try to search for the thread myself, but what were the arguments that people used to defend this thing?

[@EggsBenAddict]

How strongly?

[@wohlhabendermanager]

That's just one of the reasons I avoid this particular subreddit like the plague. It's full of idiots, and the moderators there aren't any better.

[@gordybrown3667]

Why was he being opposed? Do you know the name of the thread as I'd like to look at it myself

[@fonkbadonk5370]

@@gab_gallard Interestingly two ways: One poster criticized him for not calling it an outright illegal scam, another didn't see the scammy aspect since it technically is a legal thing to do. Both were wrong imho, since as Andrew says: Something that skirts the legal boundary on the inside can still be nefarious and predatory, hence a scam. But legal.

[@jimmyincredible3141]

As someone who as always lived in Germany I just learned that I have so far been completely immune to this - because i didn't even consider that official stuff can be done online, and assumed the pinnacle of German bureaucracy was still the fax machine :D

[@hummel6364]

I phone them and/or go to the government office lmao. I still just assume the highest tech the government supports is certified mail.

[@Motorov]

I have to say, some things on this channel are really informative, even for a native german speaker and resident. Thank you for your good work!

[@Ausknutz]

I was made aware of this when I arrived in Germany to live in a building owned by the university where I currently work. They gave me some papers explaining how the Rundfunkbeitrag works, the correct website to enroll and making it clear the official website does not charge any processing fee.

[@tomokig2655]

In court you still may have a high ground. Since they hide their fee by "strategily" arranging their page the contract itself can be compromised. Also adding a "surprise" in the Terms of Services can also be fought. All important contract information has to be visible AND understandable for the potential customer. But since the "fee" is so low most people do not sue - that might be much more expensive. My advice is to contact the Consumer Center in your region and inform about this kind of pseudo-legal operations.

[@rewboss]

Consumer organisations already know about this one, and all they can do is warn against it. The problem is that the information is very easily accessible to everyone. The terms of service are short and written in very clear, everyday German, and make it very clear exactly what the service is. The fee is clearly stated during the sign-up process before the customer makes a final decision. The contact information is also given in accordance with German law. The only thing that is actually devious is including the important information on the home page inside a longer and irrelevant text, but that's unlikely to stand up in court because it's repeated in multiple other places, including in the ToS which the customer has to confirm that they have read and agree to before in order to place an order.

[@sebastiant4597]

Even the attempt to criminalize those services by court ruling under current legislation would bust the BGB and has the potential of being highly unconstitutional. German law allows for trading any shit at any price as long as buyer and seller BOTH agree on a) it's shit b) the price is fair market value. Legally there are only obstacles when the potentially scammed part of the deal wasn't mentally fit to grasp the peculiarities of the contract. In this case you'd need to set all Germans to be "zu dumm ein Loch in den Schnee zu pissen" [complete morons] by default, potentially questioning all written contracts with a body of over 10 lines of text.

[@tomokig2655]

@@sebastiant4597 But you forget that by EU and German law you have to disclose all relevant contract parts clear and open before a contact can become valid. Hiding a fee in in a paragraph which is not relevant or in the AGB is not legit. The main issue is that the fee is not high enough that you would consider going to court - the cost is in no relation to the outcome. Since Germany has no punitive damages you are getting in best case your fee and the cost of your lawyer back...

[@sebastiant4597]

@@tomokig2655 1. The Fee is not hidden. It's even repeatedly stated multiple times throughout the process in quite short text blocks. 2. The Intention is not obscured. The websites do in fact point out that you can get the same service for free at the official website. That's what I was referring to when talking about written contracts with more than 10 lines of text. If you want to hold the ground that any text longer than 10 lines is potentially obfuscating information and thus "go over your head" you couldn't even hire a lawyer. 😂😂 If you want to be an adult, be treated like an adult and do business like an adult, there'll be a minimum of due diligence expected to be endured.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

@@sebastiant4597 It's not quite everything that you can trade. Can't sell anything illegal. As in, explicitly made illegal elsewhere. But it does indeed offer a very open market.

[@ICTman]

This used to be a big thing in the UK too - purported "check and send" services that operated just on the right side of the law to justify their fee. They'd use search ads on things like EHICs/GHICs, Passports, US ESTA, etc. I looked a few up for examples now, though - mostly gone, for some reason.

[@embreis2257]

would be interesting to know _why_ these services stopped to place ads - or are they all gone?

[@ICTman]

I think the wonderful Martin Lewis kicked up a fuss about it, which got the government interested, so Google decided it would start blocking ads on common searches for UK bureaucracy. That's my theory anyway, no idea if that's true.

[@TheEulerID]

@@ICTman It was something like that. Google has actually been accepting money to put these scam sites at the top of the searches. Those are the "sponsored" ones you often find when looking for services, such as booking a hotel. Even Google backed down in the face of concerted bad publicity and the threat of new laws/regulations.

[@dsego84]

There are unofficial websites selling slovenian motorway e-vignettes for more money than the official site. In Croatia there is also a scam where a private company tracks newly opened businesses and sends a proforma invoice in the mail to get included in a "national business registry". You can just throw these in the garbage bin ,but people think it's something official and want to avoid fines so they just pay the invoice.

[@jonaszswietomierz8017]

The channel HONEST GUIDE exposed a scam where they overcharged foreign drivers at vignette kiosks in Czechia.

[@elfo7918]

Moment, das muss man machen? Ich hab einfach immer gewartet bis ich von denen Angeschrieben wurde, dass die Zahlung überfällig ist. Gefunden haben die mich immer.

[@rewboss]

Das kann funktionieren, aber man soll sich lieber nicht darauf vertrauen. Nicht, dass was schief geht und du auch noch Mahngebühren zahlen muss.

[@fonkbadonk5370]

Waren die ersten mit einem "Kondolenzbrief" nach dem Tod meines Vaters (nicht ganz 2 Wochen danach, und natürlich war die wichtige Frage, wo sie demnächst abbuchen sollen), noch bevor die Stadtverwaltung, das Finanzamt und so ziemlich alle anderen abseits von Familie, Rechtsanwalt und Steuerberater davon erfahren haben. Sowohl für ihn als Privatperson, als auch seine kleine Firma. Der Beitrag scheint hoch genug zu sein, tausende an Detektiven zu beschäftigen, die solche Fälle in Lichtgeschwindigkeit ermitteln. Einfach nur ekelhaft.

[@mischmaZOOO]

Stimmt! Auf diese Weise hatten wir uns empfindliche Mahngebühren eingehandelt. Sollte man also lieber nicht machen

[@TheYoutubeUser69]

lmao! die wollten mich letztens mit iwie 3k€ rechung bummsen obwohl ich bei eltern wohn. die sind so lost, wunder, dass die dich gefunden habe tbh

[@manub.3847]

Wer seine Daten nicht online eingeben möchte, kann auch bei manchen Sparkassen,-Volks-und Postbanken die Formulare erhalten.

[@Aristomache83]

There's similar 'Scams' here. I worked for the CSCS card scheme processing and sending cards for people to work on active sites. The cost was £30. There are dozens of sites that charge up to 10 times as much for the same service.

[@parsifal6094]

A very important video!! Same with the refunds for a late train in the DB. If your train is at least 60 minutes late, you can fill out a form online or on paper and get at least a 25% refund. The process is easy and free of charge. Lately there are multiple shady companies in the internet that claim that "the process is complicated and slow". And that is a lie. They would send the application for you and charge you with 30% of your refund. Fill the form only via a DB official website!!

[@schwingedeshaehers]

if you have the app, it 3 or 4 button presses iirc

[@weppwebb2885]

I think it's pretty annoying to do, even though it isn't a lot of clicks. Thing is, even if you make someone else claim your refund, you still have to put in the data, so zero time saved xD (most annoying part is that you can't enter a arrival time in the future, so you can't do it while still stuck on the train). Also the last time i was four hours late I just got a letter telling me it was "external circumstaces" and not their fault.

[@RealGestumblindi]

Getting a DB late train refund *is* rather slow, but it's not the applying part that is slow, and you certainly don't need a third party service to do this for you; filling out the online form is done quickly enough - but it took DB more than a month to process my recent request, and how did they issue the refund? You would expect it to arrive online, by e-mail, but no, it came in form of a two-pages letter on paper in the post which included the code for the refund.

[@Felisquoreda]

I believe these websites do not only exist for our official bureaucracy, but also if you want to end any contract. Some years ago I wanted to end my data plan and I wanted Google to tell me, which information needed to be in my letter and how it should look (I could not believe that it could be simple.) And all the result were like "give us your information, were gonna do the work for you". I did not feel comfortable just giving this to strangers on the Internet so I didn't fall for the scam.

[@tarickw]

but why would you notify them? when you move, you register with the town and they notify them and you get a letter asking for clarification and guidance on what to do.

[@feedbackzaloop]

5:10 moment, yes. Never knew about these websites too because always had to deal with it via letters

[@brun4775]

It’s the same as the scammers who file claims for you when your flight is cancelled or delayed and then take a massive cut of the compensation you are statutorily entitled to.

[@TheGasMaskGuy96]

While I'm really mad at most official websites of the german gov and their services for being overcomplicated and sometimes stupid in design, the changing of your details on the GEZ website is really easy to use. Never had issues with it, unlike with other services.

[@COPKALA]

The same exist for the service that gather information of one's credit worthy-ness in Germany. BTW there is the same for asking for the visum substitute for entry in many Countries (I almost got into when filing for enter USA or Australia)...

[@martinsutoob]

Not sure if this is related, but I had to shell out 40 euros to an organisation that now seems to have its tentacles embedded into a huge number of services and sales activities and who you can immediately recognise because every one of them has a name that ends with the number 24. To this day I have no idea what I clicked to tip me into this trap - I'm normally quite savvy about these things. But there you go. Objections were futile and they kept their filthy mits on my money. However, in the long run, their cheap tricks lost them more than they made. It's that "24" thing. It's like a red flag now saying "Danger - Avoid".

[@DelfinaKS]

It is good you educate us about these scams but I think those lazy people who keep clicking next without reading the text, they do deserve to be scammed every once in a while - I am happy that this type of "legal" scam exists. At least, more people will understand the importance of reading the text before clicking "I Agree" to it! At the same time, it is good you make these videos to create awareness about the issue. Overall, we want more people who are really literate.

[@dasreicht]

The UK has these too for driving licence applications etc. I'm not sure why they haven't been outlawed yet, they just put warnings in literature saying something like "make sure you used the gov.uk website or you may be charged an extra fee".

[@eldrago19]

We have a similar thing in the UK, especially around claiming benefits or road tax.

[@mancubwwa]

It's the same with visas for various countries - plenty of 3rd party websites telling you they would help process evisa for you, just for a little fee. The added problem is that the visa do cost money and people don't know how much, and theses sites are often in better Englush than original ones, so they fall even more easily

[@nautilusshell4969]

A fraud is a financial advantage gained by deceit. I work for the financial crime section of a bank preventing payment fraud made via transfer (rather than using credit or debit cards). It's amazing how many people are caught out by this kind of thing, despite all the warnings.....

[@Bluedino549]

They do a similar thing with license plates. You can reserve and order license plates from websites that are not the official ones. Suddenly, a pair of plates costs twice as much. And unlike the official source, they don't check whether your custom letter-number combo is already registered.

[@xZimblx]

Very interesting video, never heard of this "scam". We've been living in this apartment since 2011, though, so no communication necessary for quite some time.

[@shinyagumon7015]

Huh, that's the first time I ever heard of such a thing, but that's probably because I haven't moved in a while and almost exclusively do all my correspondence with the government either in person or through mail. But I get why people fall for this because German bureaucracy can be exhausting, so I get that some people feel inclined to pay someone else to do it to get it off their hands.

[@LarsPW]

The thing is, that you do not correspond with the government here. The public broadcasters have to be "far away" from state.

[@gargoyle7863]

@@LarsPW The public broadcasters are "a state within a state" specialized in wasting the taxpayers money.

[@egbront1506]

Such scam sites exist in the UK, particularly for the DVLA. They even go as far as to use the branding and website design of the DVLA so that you really think you are on the official website.

[@understandingcompanylaw6576]

There is something similar in Australia for company registration

[@PascalGienger]

In the US a similar legal scam is to land on a 3rd party service to do the ESTA travel autorization request on your behalf for a higher fee than CBP charges. We call it a stupidity tax. Many tourists fall into this

[@thornback5641]

We also pay tax twice on phones 🤣🤣🤣

[@Fl4shback]

In Germany the word stupidity tax (Dummensteuer) is used for the state organized lottery

[@PascalGienger]

@@Fl4shback Here in the US, too. State lottery players just pay voluntary tax to the States without feeling like taxed. :) That is why those lotteries exist, it is a huge income for the states.

[@weppwebb2885]

Every scam is a stupidity tax. So are a lot of accidents people die in. That doesn't make it right does it? Everyone is stupid sometimes, just a little tired/ already overworked is all it takes.

[@yaush_]

It’s not a tax because the money doesn’t go to the government. If it actually was a tax then I’d less of a problem with it because the money was going to the benefit of the public but this money is just going to some random person who scams people.

[@georgantonischki1188]

same trap can be found when getting a crit‘air sticker for your car. Official French website is about €3.64 but several sites offer you this service for like €20

[@Maxშემიწყალე]

For some reason my wife and I get this TV tax invoice separately. They seem like they are two different organizations representing ARD ZDF Rundfunk. One seems to be Germany wide and the other for Berlin-Brandenburg. How can I tell one about the other so I can stop paying both?

[@manub.3847]

A similar "rip-off" also occurs when searching for: "apply for a police clearance certificate". The money is usually sent to the Netherlands or Lithuania or somewhere else by bank transfer (non-returnable) and you only receive a pamphlet with information about the police clearance certificate. (if at all) However, you can apply for the clearance certificate via your local authority (Ortsamt) or, in some authorities, via the local homepage with a digital ID card.

[@andrewcox6863]

I reported this and another ad to Google citing Google's Government Services Policy. Both my reports were turned down, but searching today I only see the official site. Have the ads been taken down?

[@GreyFox474]

Honestly, from the intro I thought this would be about Steuererklärung-Software.

[@Tenajeh]

Er hat ja gesagt, dass diese Taktik auch für andere bürokratischen Prozesse genutzt wird. Steuererklärung ist nur einer von so vielen.

[@mats7492]

I had one guest at my door pretending to be from the „NDR“ and asked me to let him in to check if I had any radio.. I told him that I’m calling the police if he doesn’t leave… He ran off after that..

[@moonraker978]

But that was more than ten years ago, gelle?

[@xaverlustig3581]

Inspectors like that actually did exist, before the fee became mandatory for everyone.

[@fipse]

​@@xaverlustig3581 They did exist but had no rights to actual enter your home.

[@DFYX]

@@xaverlustig3581 They still didn't have the right to enter your apartment or house without permission because of Artikel 13 GG. That's the reason why they often lied and told people they sell newspaper subscriptions or whatever just so you'd let them inside.

[@mats7492]

@@xaverlustig3581 But they had ZERO authority. They were just regular people paid to ask people if they had paid. . Lying about their actual authority was certainly illegal..

[@jamesodell3064]

Why does Google give you this company first rather then the governmental agency that you wanted? It is called a contribution, but it is mandatory. Call it what you want but if something is mandatory it is NOT a contribution, but is a tax.

[@floriantischner8850]

Just commenting so the spam-bots aren't the only interaction on the video.

[@unconventionalideas5683]

Keep doing good work like this!

[@HagenvonEitzen]

Somehow this reminds me of the offers for "highly visible ads" one used to receive in the olden days from "Our firm name sounds almost like we might be the official phone directory publisher" -- and the offer was actually for some obscure directory to be published in an edition of just a handful of copies :)

[@paulhubsch5111]

For a second, I thought he was talking about the Rundfunkbeitrag itself

[@nils9853]

There is a similar "scam" for letting your paper mail, which is still adressed to the old location, be forwarded to the new location for 6 month or so. You can book this directly via the German Postal Service for 35 Euro or so, or you follow the first Google result and pay 99 Euro. They will pass your information to the Postal Service and it will work. But you just paid 65 Euro for some script Copy and Pasting your data.

[@JonatanMiles]

seen this before.....try to process an ESTA VISA waiver to enter the US, there are many sites doing this

[@marge2548]

Interesting. Have never heard of that one before, or only in connection with having a nee car registered. (That, however, can be such an ordeal in some cities that hiring someone to help might not seem unreasonable at least at first sight). I suppose the reason why I never encountered this before is that when we got registered for the broadcasting fee, online was still mainly supposed to refer to laundry and everything official was on paper. And only on paper.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Do they still accept fax, like the patent office?

[@liamnoone9381]

There is a common scam in the UK where you go to a certain place where someone performs something with fruit, veg, and meat, hands it to you and charges you loads of money. Something you could easily perform at home yourself.

[@Simon-xt8mv]

It is more like going to get takeout but realizing that the drive-through is not affiliated with the restaurant and that they are actually concealing the real drive-through to the restaurant.

[@The2wanderers]

This is becoming common everywhere, I think. Particularly common in tourism (visas and tax collection type functions.)

[@dobythedog]

This used to be a thing a few years back in the UK. I think there was a bit of a crackdown on it though. They made the websites look exactly like the official government sites.

[@phosphoros60]

So, theoretically, am I 100% safe if the website in question shows the ARD, ZDF, Deutschlandfunk Logos? Because those are bound to be trademarked, right? Using them would be illegal for the scammers, surely?

[@AlphaHorst]

This assumes there are people who run after the ARD ZDF and don't wait for the letters asking you to pay. Fun fact. German administration is not allowed to share your personal data with anyone, not even other sub administrations outside of their area (hence why you need to run around with bags of papers if you move from.one administration area to the next). But they are not only allowed but required to hand over yoir personal data to the Beitragsservice. So when you move homes and register under the new address the Beitragsservice is automatically informed of your new address. The same goes for changing your name and so on. So there is absolutely 0 need to ever do anything until the Beitragsservice sends you a letter. Then the work starts.

[@rewboss]

Except that sometimes when people try this, they end up paying late fees.

[@AlphaHorst]

@rewboss that is illigal. Late fees can only be applied after the first warning has already been issued. And a warning can only be issued after the initial claim was made. For late fees to be legal, two letters have to be sent first.(exception is when the sender can prove that additional costs fell upon them by sending the letter, in that case they can charge you for that amount) Depending on where you move the Beitragsservice has to issue you a new number so in every case they have to be the first to make contact and they get your data the same day as you re-register. That the Beitragsservice does not follow the law in this case is already known. I advise everyone to double check their invoice every time. The Beitragsservice also hides late fees in normal invoices but those are also illigal. (This only applies to those who pay month by month) In one case when I was a student they lost my BAfög invoice for the year 2016/17 and in 2019 I hit a letter claiming I owe them around 650€. This included 28€ of late fees for each month never mentioned anywhere in the invoice. I could prove beyond a doubt that I was "free" by proving I received BAfög. They still wanted the late fees as well as 3 months of payment. Because the concept of BAfög legally lasting exactly one year from October to October was to much for them. The city I lived in had to take over and send me an apology for the inconvenience. (They send my BAfög letter in my place due to circumstances) Most stressful year in my life because of the Beitragsservice refusing to follow german law.

[@GroovingPict]

Im amazed that "efficient Germany" hasnt done what we've done here in Norway, which is to remove the "TV license" (as it's called here) as a separate bill, and instead incorporate it into people's taxes. You still pay the "TV license" fee, but it's automatically done along with the rest of your taxes that your employer deducts from your paycheck. It's still a controversial fee here in Norway as well, but less so now that it's sort of more hidden rather than a separate (and substantial) bill you get sent in the post

[@rewboss]

It's not legally possible in Germany. Taxes can't be earmarked for specific purposes. Also, the fee is levied on households, not wage earners, so that would just lead to extra bureaucracy: employers would have to deduct different amounts from employees' pay depending on how many other wage-earners are living at the same address.

[@erkinalp]

@@rewboss constitution issue or tax procedure code issue? "employers would have to deduct different amounts from employees' pay depending on how many other wage-earners are living at the same address." no, they'd make it per-person rather than per-household 😋

[@debasishraychawdhuri]

You can to fill a form to pay the Government a mandatory tax to pa for the public broadcast? Why can't they just take that tax as part of the income tax or something?

[@rewboss]

Because, legally speaking, it's not a tax. Taxes cannot be raised for specific purposes, so the government can't legally collect this fee as a tax. Also, it applies to households and businesses, not individual people. If you live together in one apartment, you only need to pay one fee.

[@runarandersen878]

This isn’t only a German thing. I saw something similar about applying for Visa for travel to the US.

[@ChrisWar666]

Ack, there are these quasi-legal websites here in Brazil that do the same. But the ads they pay for in Google always use something sooooo similar to the official government websites' name or title I'd say it is actually a phishing site....

[@rewboss]

It's phishing if they use the site to gather login details so they can, for example, access your bank account. That's not what this site does.

[@luigigaminglp]

There are add-ons that specifically block googles sponsored results.

[@michaelkoelbl4004]

The "Feinstaubplakette" is another classic. Any car you buy should already have it but just in case you don't, there are plenty of middlemen who will do you the service for 15-20€ which seems reasonable - until you realise thing only costs 5,95€ if you buy it directly from the authorities- for example the Berlin, at the "Landesamt für Bürger- und Ordnungsangelegenheiten" and they will send you a Plakette for any car registered in Germany to anywhere in Germany (you don't need a connection to Berlin). But very typical.

[@feedbackzaloop]

Feels like providing service that doesn't benefit consumer, cost them next to nothing yet adds up to substantial profits is far far from being limited to this particular case. Class action should deal with them, doesn't it though?

[@Xerlash]

to sue for what? theyre telling you dead in the eye, that this service is optional. and legally youre free to pay people for whatever is offered. as long as they provide the service they promised correctly and dont trick you into something its perfectly fine. someone could open a service to burn your money and charge a fee for it and it probably would be fine aswell, as long as theyre being transparent about the service. youre a mature person, no one protecting you from plain stupid expenses.. ...also i guess part of their success is due to people thinking it makes dealing with bureaucracy easier, like doing tax declaration for you. - in this case it just dosnt simplify anything, cause the task was as easy in the first place Edit: butchered "bureaucracy"

[@berndbrotify]

Class action doesn’t exist in Germany, like it does in the USA. Also, being a service that doesn’t benefit the customer, costs next to nothing and adds up to substantial profits doesn’t make a service illegal. Otherwise horoscopes, homeopathy and joining a gym between Christmas and New Year’s Eve would all be illegal.

[@feedbackzaloop]

@@berndbrotify true, nothing is like USA legal system. But as we speak English here this is the choice of words. Malpractice is still malpractice. Disclaimer or not but intellectual influence on the mental image as per §263 is there. And it takes collective effort to prove it. Individually, yes, you fooled yourself. As a social strata you lost a considerable amount of money. As government, you have unregulated market niche. Point is not so much of reimbursement anymore, but punishing the opportunists and making further online business interactions safer. Again, it's not the only case, it's a pattern. Another example, AI services that do not operate their own servers but provide webpage through which you connect to public servers.

[@berndbrotify]

@@feedbackzaloop IANAL, but I'm pretty sure it's not fraud in the sense of §263 StGB either, as they are neither faking or suppressing any information to lure you into giving them money. In fact they are even telling you that you don't have to pay them, and you could get the same service for free, if I got rewboss's video correctly. I'm pretty sure that if they make such much money for this scheme, they have spoken to their lawyers to make sure they bend the law without breaking it.

[@feedbackzaloop]

@@berndbrotify neither am I, but had experience with social engineering. And creating safe invironment in which victims do not feel obliged to pay is one of the staples. But well, that's technicalities, indeed for lawyers. And you reinforce another point: just the amount of money circulating (not only paying for lawyers but also keeping at top of Google search) should raise concerns.

[@florian-249]

Seeing your comment on reddit about this, I knew from the title what this video is about.^^

[@martinc.720]

Yay!!!!

[@Nerobyrne]

The funniest story was that I was drunk once, and bought a subscription to a shady dating website for 200 euros. I later realized how dumb this was, and checked their terms of service. And although it is legal to waive your RtW, their ToS did not include such a clause. And since you can give any reason, I messaged them saying that I use my right because "I was drunk". They wrote back with, and this is a quote: "Unfortunately that doesn't apply here :'(" Well, I guess they knew that was BS because they never disputed the charge-back ^.^

[@bomcabedal]

Good PSA. The problem shouldn't exist if people didn't feel intimidated by the bureaucracy, of course, so any service helping them manage the system will be well-received. And there are other reasons. In the past I've used a service to get my Deutsche Bahn or delayed airplane tickets back. While they skim 30% (openly), they do also transfer the money the same day, instead of you having to wait for three months and correspond with an uncooperative company.

[@sweetmelon3365]

Reading the letter is the best advice

[@thetj8243]

and they are not just collecting an unnecessary fee, you also give them your address and bank details that they maybe (I have not read their TOS) also might sell for profit 🤷

[@juyjuka]

Thank you rewboss.

[@computernerdtechman]

Why would you need to pay a fee for radio? What if you don't listen to radio? Most people use the internet now for music and news.

[@fsturmat]

It's not radio necessarily, more of a BBC copycat with radio on-top. By neither owning a TV nor a radio, you could get exempted a few years ago. But because of the Internet being a thing, most of that content is also available online nowadays.

[@baritonfelix]

Never heard of this one. Not a lawyer either, but I think there might still be a (somewhat shaky) case to prosecute this as fraud (§ 263 StGB) if anybody bothered.

[@rewboss]

I doubt it. For that to stick, the accused would have had to have told lies, misrepresented the truth, or concealed important facts. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

[@minirop]

You can't attack them because they stated everywhere they are a third-party, but would it be possible to use their legitimacy of handling of personal data (if they don't have any)? (not because you were tricked, but by someone like NOYB)

[@rewboss]

You consent to them using your personal data.

[@soundscape26]

Google is complicit with these (and worse) practices by being totally careless with the sponsored results they put on top of the search page.

[@rosaecrux]

Well, maybe. But is it not noteworthy that these websites are seemingly better designed than the originals that people spend their money on a more simplistic website? Maybe it is just another case of where the German way is too confusing for Germans themselves.

[@gargoyle7863]

We are in a real legal grey zone here. They neither really hide the relevant facts nor they overprice the service (if they would ask 300€ instead 30€ we might be in § 138 (2) BGB "extortion"). So you're probably right and one could lose this in court.

[@schwingedeshaehers]

extortion? i don't think it is extortion, for extortion the price is normally irrelevant, as you need a force/thread of force i think it would be "wucher" (usury).

[@holger_p]

It's like selling canned air. You have to know you get it for free by yorself.

[@avarionargos]

While I am no fan of this behavior, I am impressed.

[@Deckzwabber]

Google should really stop listing these kind of sites

[@galdavonalgerri2101]

I agree. But you have to remember that Google makes a living from it. Google sells advertising, even if it is shady. They have no moral claim that people should earn money in a decent way.

[@fsturmat]

Germans are willing to endure a state of perpetuous humiliation, but for your very own sake, don't insult the Rundfunkbeitrag. Simply calling it by its rightful names, like "tax" or "scam", will make you have enemies. Same applies to public health insurance / Krankenkasse.

[@rgbx6923]

In my opinion that's sittenwidrig, and therefore probably illegal, as: 1. they make you think you are in the normal process. 2. they don't offer any benefit. However 30€ isn't worth sueing, especially when you can probably loose hundreds for court fees. This is a problem with a lot of things, and we definitely need class action lawsuits in Germany!

[@AlessAbreu]

Boy they do have all their tracks covered - their disclaimer seems to be pretty straightforward that makes it arguing in court really difficult

[@namensklauer]

I dont like the Rundfunkbeitrag, but i guess it is necessary, so that they can keep producing at least 2 "new" crime films per week with third grade actors following the same story line every time and of course including commercial breaks.

[@feynstein1004]

😂😂 As a foreigner, I actually like the Rundfunkbeitrag because it lets me stream German shows to improve my German.

[@sejtam]

And will they resell the data you hand them to data brokers?

[@rewboss]

I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I've not yet seen any evidence that they do.

[@schwingedeshaehers]

​@@rewbossif there was no mention that they do, that would be highly illegal, and enough that it is worth sueing/notifing the "Datenschutzbeauftragten"

[@Hahnson]

We have this in Sweden also , leaving the church for example, it is not illegal either

[@erkinalp]

not free of consequences, as it affects burials as well

[@elton1981]

Got caught similarly when applying for an EHIC, back when brits could have one.

[@gehteuchnixan69]

Ganz ehrlich, Respekt. Schöner Sidehustle.

[@Vampirzaehnchen]

I wouldn't call this a scam. You get what you came for. The question is why there is a service for this. It wouldn't last if nobody "fell for it".

[@dombo813]

Sounds like a search engine problem to me. Google already has no problem blocking sites it doesnt like from appearing in search results, it should just block these sites too.

[@galdavonalgerri2101]

Actually they take money form companies putting these scam ads. Beware, as a Google user you are not the valued customer, but you are the product that is being sold.

[@MS-sd1uz]

Deny all claims and fight the contract with 119 BGB. Typically they will hire some debt collectors but not follow through

[@rapid13]

0:55 Dood. If I were to ask you “What do you call a _contribution_ that everyone _must_ pay for a service provided to the entire country but you might never use” what would your answer be?

[@rewboss]

A "mandatory contribution". By the German legal definition of "tax", it doesn't qualify as a tax: it's levied for a specific purpose and administered by a non-governmental agency.

[@sevret313]

Such a site is a clear cut scam in my opinion. If the site only exist to trick people, then no amount of disclaimers should protect the owners from jail.

[@uuu12343]

In most situations, this is considered as typosquatting but of course, germany lets this be legal and therefore - legal typosquatting

[@rewboss]

It's not really typosquatting, although that particular website does have a domain name that looks official. It's not a mere typo away, though -- it's not like they registered "rundfunkbetrag.de", for example -- so it would be difficult to sue for typosquatting.

[@darthplagueis13]

I don't think it can be considered typosquatting because they're not pretending to be the official website.

[@blablagame3914]

One of my parents works in public service and they always complain how stupid all the people that don't directly apply through them are

[@panda4247]

"This scam [...] operates for other mundane bureaucratic processes [...]" Tor example the tax recondiliation form (or however you call it in your country?). It's perfectly easy to do, yet there are many companies/tax advisors who'll gladly do it for you for a fee. I get it why a company would hire their services, but as an individual with income from work and maybe if you are renting something (house), it's literally easy as hell in my country... I'm not saying that "processing" this "broadcast fee" is a service I would pay 30 € for, or that it is good/moral of that company to set a service like that.... Just saying, that there are multiple things that one person may find easy to do by themselves, and somebody else may be willing to pay 3rd party to do it (and also take responsibility that it is done correctly, I suppose)

[@debildevil]

From the start of the video I thought you were talking about Steuerberater 😂

[@LiamMcBride]

Sounds like GovPlus in the United States, a third party company that charges money to file paperwork that you can do yourself for free directly with the government

[@felixro1006]

I didn't watch the video, I just give my guess here: Is it about the information about you from Schufa?

[@hansmeiser32]

no.

[@hurtigheinz3790]

How much money did they make with this kind of scam? 30€? 60€? As a German I'd never think about telling the GEZ/Beitragsservice my new address or name (after a marriage). I'd tell this kind of information the Einwohnermeldamt, and then assume all public services know my personal information.

[@XShaneX19]

Thought this was about the GEZ itself.

[@dianamartinez1905]

thank you!

[@EmperorNefarious1]

This is like paying for online tax service in the US. If you don't know it should be free you can get scammed into a dumb service.

[@msmark042]

This is paid in Denmark via our taxes.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

The issue is, taxe income can't be dedicated to specific fields. They could just the the money and spend it on something else.

[@to_loww]

Funding via the federal budget puts the independence of the broadcasters at risk, as the parliament can threaten them with budget cuts.

[@oclanis840]

I fell for the same Trick, trying to leave the Church Tax.

[@KernowRoadcam]

This is less of a problem in the UK where the government have worked to solve this issue - one of the rare things that the Tories have done something right during their 14 years in office.

[@thomasherzog86]

this would be really easy to end if the officials would stop accepting data from third parties.

[@rewboss]

The problem is that there may be legitimate reasons for using third parties. Not in this specific case perhaps, but if you're running a business and delegating a lot of the routine paperwork to, for example, accountants or PAs, those are the third parties that are submitting your paperwork on your behalf.