DON'T tuck your chin and keep your hands up?!

[@kevinlobos5519]

Indeed, great video. I'll add my two cents as a fellow kung fu practitioner: One of my teachers once told me "use your hard parts to hit their soft parts, use your soft parts to hit their hard parts" Sparring with that in mind there is a whole new world opened in front of you. The vast amount of different hand strikes other than hitting with the knucles of your closed fist suddenly make a lot of sense if you want to hit your oponent's hard targets without literally disarming yourself. Everything that you demonstrated in the video sets up many palm strikes, hammer fists, backfists, backhand strikes (reverse palm strikes), etc. All of those employ soft, cushioned parts of your hands or amplify the striking surface so when you hit a hard target the force is dispersed through more of your hand, reducing the force they are subjected to on impact, while still being able to exert enough force to damage your foe. Open hand strikes also can become grabs, frames, finger rakes or pokes/gouges in less than a split second, while a fist has to be uncurled first to get to any of that. Love your content man, found you recently and im thrilled to share many of your points of view. Let's keep working towards giving kung fu a good name 💪🏼

[@Apollo108-hw1we]

I train tang lang quan in Tainan Taiwan. We are taught to tuck our chin and shell up. shelling up in Chinese is Shuang Gua Shou and its in many traditional forms.

[@johntay3831]

The reason they don’t tuck the chin is because of structure. A well aligned structure is better at delivering and absorbing force. Alex Pereira fights straight and hardly gets knocked out.

[@LunaticReason]

Something I noticed with old school bareknuckle boxng in Eruroep they kept their hands low as well rarely striking full force to the head, and depending on whos fighting grappling, and eye gougin where allowed. I think it makes more sense fighting without the gloves. I know Kung fu utilizes palm strikes and aiming at soft targets. As a Kung fu practitioners im not 100 percent sure whether to adopt to Western boxing as there is more head hunting nowadays. Plenty of pro strikers whom keep their hands low.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@LunaticReason yes I think the old school bare knuckle boxing in Europe and in China had similar considerations for sure

[@MustAfaalik]

I am not sure, but Northern internal systems prefer using palm to strike both to head & torso, while Southern systems utilize fist & palm as evident applications on the wooden dummy. I would prefer to use fists to strike the sternum, liver or heart without fear of getting my fingers caught.

[@hellohennessy3462]

Hands low fighting was developed in Europe because of the fact that no one hit the face. Hitting the face brought negative consequences to yourself. But nowadays, we forgot such a thing ever happened, so everyone naturally head hunts. As such, hands up is currently superior. It all depends on environment. If no one is going to target your face, then there is no need to defend your face as much. This is true for the 1800s. Nowadays, targeting the head is most common, therefore, it is imperative that we protect the head more. In terms of natural selection, hands down was once the local optima of guards, but the near local optima is hand up.

[@dhalav]

​​@@hellohennessy3462the face was definitly a target, not the main one but still attacked. If it was not a target then why would Mendoza would have several blocks/parries in his manual? Downward backhands/chopper to the face to crush the nose/cut the eyebrows, straight leads making nose explode like a tomato, "dirty boxing" aka fibbing, etc. Where I agree however is that it is foolish to not take into account that headhunting is nowadays the main way of fighting.

[@kloa4219]

​@yourdaisihing4715That is a good theory

[@jessehendrix2661]

There are three ways to protect yourself: One is to just try to cover up all the targets. It's easier to do this with gloves, although it's done to a certain extent even while bareknuckle. The other is to get up close and either restrain your opponent or use your sense of touch to react quickly enough to parry, move out of the way, etc. This is like chi sao. You also see some boxers do something similar where they put a gloves on their opponent's glove so they can feel what their opponent is about to do and react. The third way is to be far enough away that they either can't reach you, or you have time to see things coming and react. This is where long guards come in. I don't practice wing chun, but I like it, and I've done tang soo do, boxing, and judo. It seems to me that the reason for the outstretched hands in Wing Chin is to keep yourself far enough away to use your eyes to react until you make contact, at which point you can transition to more of a chi sao kind of context. If they manage to back up and create space, back to the long guard. I do something similar in boxing, but in a more sideways stance. My lead arm is outstretched, where I keep it in the way of their punches and sometimes have my glove on theirs. My rear arm is in more of a traditional boxing position, covering my solar plexus and face as much as possible. If I want to transition to grappling (judo in my case), I either grab with my lead hand or wait for an opening to move in quickly. I think waiting and relying on distance until you have an opportunity to get closer is where many Wing Chun practitioners go wrong. But like I say, I like Wing Chun, and I think it can be very effective. The key is just to do forms, chi sao, study theory, and all of that, but to also do free sparring with MMA gloves and face saver headgear. I would recommend that you spar at least 15 mins out of every hour of practice (a quarter of the time). I've found in karate that just by doing forms and sparring, you'll accidentally start to apply the forms to your sparring. You don't even have to think about it, because all the thinking about mechanics happened during your technique practice, and those patterns are ingrained in your movements. I think that's the main reason for a long guard, and a longer guard will naturally tend to be a lower guard, which, as you said, is better for defending against kicks. There's some truth to the idea that gloves change things, though. Like you say, it's harder to shell up bare knuckle, and the head tends to be targeted a little less.

[@ericdelpiano8552]

I’d personally recommend a textbook sanda guard rather then keeping both the hands far from the face. This is because the rear hand must be tight and the elbows must be in. If you are too open and ever compete against a good fighter, they will capitalize on this weakness. If you compete you will feel how hard some people try to kick your head and body and you will want to keep that rear hand tight. The lead hand is good to keep out slightly greater then 90 degrees (100 degree angle is good) and I’d also advise for it to not remain static, poking the lead hand in and out to return the elbow back in tight for defense and to also gage distance and to cover center line. This posture along with a good bounce and movement keeps me pretty safe and also allows me to gain momentum with the bounce to explode forward if I want. Remember about your liver!

[@YTPrule]

Some stances are more vulnerable to grappling and more. Different situations like technology or descended from weapon forms.

[@agniroyai1230]

A simple comparison, old-school bare knuckle boxing in the west didn't have the chin tucked in. It has its uses but it's not a constant. One criticism I would make of modern Chinese martial artists it their lack of head movement, because traditional Chinese styles do incorporate a lot of head movement

[@snakeoveer1046]

@@agniroyai1230 Many fighters did tuck their chins and had high guards like daniel mendoza

[@zetareticulan321]

Drunken Fist has a lot of head movement.

[@pierrewilliam7119]

Good content here ! We see how you've improved over the years and it is real inspiring ! In my country it is difficult to find serious kung-fu gyms and shuai jiao classes are very rare (very few clubs actually exist in France ...)...but I try my best to test my art through grappling and striking, knowing that one day, all these day as an underdog in foreign arts will pay off , not only for me but, I firmly believe, for tcma, who've been depreciated for too long. Great to have your content and I hope to see more (sparring for example) ! Keep going !

[@azlaroc12]

Thanks. Well said.

[@parappasan]

I think everyone knows the basic idea that shelling up and punching heavily even to hard targets is only sensible for modern "pillow sized gloves" boxing and that the older bareknuckle styles with erect posture, a long guard, and selective punching is better otherwise. This video is a great illustration of the differences and how they relate to the context of ungloved self-defence!

[@tAtarit0]

Excellent content my friend

[@gaylonmcdowell3823]

Excellent work!

[@Thoraxziod]

I like to spar using traditional posture and traditional technique, and I have found that the opponent covering that way makes it easy to hit the back of his head or kick the groin if you first make a quick head attack, which I know isn't allowed, but then again if you are an escort in ancient China and protecting a client's property, I don't think anyone minded. Not that I actually hit people there. I have just done it on reflex before (not hard): I practice Choy li fut and their swing arm just naturally swings there so I have to prevent myself hitting there a lot (for those of you that practice some traditional kung fu it is a sow choy with a pivot...the signature strike in Choy li fut). I have also learned by copying this guy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXSpnZqpfL6npdE that smashing into it works and swinging as a pretense to grab one of the covering arms (this usually doesn't enable me to pull their arm fully straight but it usually jerks them forward making them loose step and leaves me a few seconds to make additional attacks); plus, it does pull their arm a little forward frequently which leaves a small space for my second hand to strike -- if I want to strike the head especially the ear area. Additionally, I really don't train one of the styles that likes to poke, but it seems to me if you punch to the head, to make them cover, you could easily change the fist to a poking hand, like into a mantis claw or many of the other myriad other hand forms, to poke the eyes...if you are getting that close to the opponent anyway.

[@Kungfu1]

Thank you for your video , I myself think it’s simply because It was not seen as a dueling art more like something like the art of sword pulling

[@the.wandering.warrior]

Depending on the style or system of Chinese boxing ...some are indeed more like a system of skillful, fast reactions to getting attacked.. others are more like MMA but in an anything goes environment. There was dueling in China but the meta was usually a little different than today's boxing or MMA That's actually one of the difficulties in the Chinese martial arts and making generalizations, because there is such a variety

[@Kungfu1]

@@the.wandering.warrior I would respectfully disagreeing ( at least from my experience and northern systems ) I think there are systems which were on somepart influenced by practitioners who also had some shuaijiao experience and somehow their trainings evolved into that direction. From my experience (Tanglang ,Tongbei , taiji )are mostly striking arts and are not suitable (in their own frames) for more than 2 max 3 actions and therefore force transmission is very important. Again just my own experience don’t want to generalize it for others with different experiences and of course always ready to learn :) thank you for your kind reply

[@simont.b.2660]

Thank you.

[@medusasub]

❤

[@christopherhancock9041]

Nice. You could probably do a whole video or two on posture and alignment. thank you.

[@G50MAandGamingSometimes]

great video great pfp you're done caked up man 🗿

[@AM-lh7rw]

In Southern Praying Mantis, if I remember correctly, there is a Song with a description of how the head should be positioned; the chin is not up, but down to protect the throat and to keep the head from wobbling. But not so much, that you can't breathe, nor is the head forward but aligned with the spine. The posture of the spine and legs has guidelines as well. In nature there is an on going arms race for survival; mma etc ain't no different, only for different reasons😂. I have known mma people to go to classes to try and pick up stuff. Not saying its wrong. I think you got to know at least one style good and have reasonable knowledge of others well.

[@dedydet6646]

8:48 whoa that's a good setup to do juji nage 😂

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@dedydet6646 yup! 😏

[@DenshaOtoko2]

Also there is foot work but Northern boxing is used in self defense and Lei Tai on platforms and in wheat fields and on mountain summits and mountain peaks. Southern boxing is used in self defense and duels in crowded cities and on boats and in slippery rice patties.

[@AncientWisdomTeachingsLLC]

good video

[@joanstone6740]

Raising your shoulders structurally disconnects your arm from your root so this is a fundamental error in kung fu syncing your shoulder and elbow roots the arm to the body correctly

[@L3gitNinjaMonkey]

cool video

[@DenshaOtoko2]

Northern Chinese Boxing styles use a strong hand forward ( traditionally the right hand forward) and have 70 percent kicking and 30 percent punching. Southern Chinese Boxing styles use either hand equally. And have 70 percent punching and 30 percent kicking. Also Northern boxing has high kicks and jumping kicks but Southern boxing has snap kicks and push kicks.

[@The-Contractor]

I would no more mimic or pattern off a Boxer for self defense than I would drive in the streets as a Formula One Racer.

[@championboy4782]

Do you do Hsing yi?

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@championboy4782 no although I do have a little bit of interest in it

[@leonpse]

Bare knuckled boxers his arms out too.

[@julianregnier9764]

Fights could go to the death, not to the knockout. An eye gouge resulting in blindness will quickly put your head up. A simple hand trap to eye gouge repeated a few times will kill a boxer.

[@DenshaOtoko2]

Also 90 percent of Chinese Boxing had sparring taken out after the Boxer rebellion of 1899-1900.

[@snakeoveer1046]

You could at least show the high guard as it is with small gloves: palms on forehead. Piotr Yan uses it well in the ufc. You're attacking a strawman. Different fighters have different preferred stances which change during the fight.

[@hellohennessy3462]

Thank you for pointing this out! he literally chose to compare to a beginner boxer with tense arms, bad range, bad posture, bad weight distribution. All the while, he compares that with textbook perfect kung fu. The stance you mentioned is more of an MMA one rather than boxing. And it isn't faire to compare a martial art with kicking and grappling to a purely striking art.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@snakeoveer1046 thanks for commenting. As someone who does traditional Chinese boxing I'm consistently asked or even advised to shell up in the way I described. So that's what I'm referring to, as I showed in the video. You think it's a straw man but it's the impression a lot of people have of boxing even though it's false. Although I've done boxing I don't feel qualified to "be a boxing KZbin channel" so I decline to respond to their impression from the modern boxing perspective - but I can do so from the traditional 'pugilist' perspective.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@hellohennessy3462 I'm flattered you feel I have textbook perfect kung fu, thank you 🙏

[@snakeoveer1046]

@@the.wandering.warrior Then I guess the best way to respond these guys is to first show them what a high guard looks like without boxing gloves (ex: piotr yan). Then show them the myriad of mm fighters who fight with low hands or an extended guard or "weird kung fu blocks" (ex: dustin poirier). Finally show that "kung fu" teaches the same things.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@snakeoveer1046 that's sensible, I appreciate your suggestion 👍

[@hellohennessy3462]

Are we really comparing boxing to kung fu? it is like comparing kickboxing to boxing. Not a fair comparison. Compare Kung Fu to MMA and now we are talking. A fair comparison would be to compare kung fu striking to boxing striking. Comparing beginner boxers isn't fair. Why do you point out mistakes of the fighter than the art itself? Is it boxing's fault that a beginner fighter tenses up? As you said, good boxers don't have this problem. Then why don't you take examples from good boxers rather than beginners? Why compare beginners to masters? Your first demonstration shows a boxer getting into a guard at an unreasonable range. In boxing, you are supposed to be at mid range to close range where the guard is effective. I could do the same and use a kung fu wide stance while standing at close range. Yes, no gloves suck for boxing. No one denies it. But it can very quickly be adapted. Took a few bareknuckle boxing classes, all I had to do was lift my arm higher and protect the hands. All and all, minor differences. Again, comparing a kicking martial art to a striking isn't fair. You chose to open the guard right before kicking which telegraphs the kick. An MMA fighter loosens the guard as he kicks which makes telegraphing disappear. Tight guard, considering that it is used correctly at the intended range (unlike in this video) blocks visibility. But do you need visibility when punches are faster than your reaction time? Do you need to see what comes from the side when you are already blocking punches coming from the sides? At this range, there are no kicks so no need to worry about it. Again, comparing striking art to grappling art isn't fair. What the fuck? Since when is the weight distribution forward? Was the "beginner boxer" anecdotal? weight distribution is 50/50, and putting your weight forward is a no no in boxing. And why are you using scenarios that boxing isn't designed for? All and all, comparing a pure striking martial art to a rounded martial art is unfair, misusing techniques, ignores all possibilities, performs boxing wrong. High guard is taught as a basic guard because it is easy to master and doesn't require skill. The local optima if you will. You don't need to be faster or stronger than your opponent. You don't need quick reflexes. Further down the development road, branches divert, long guard for those that like to pressure and knows how to avoid receiving punches. Philly shell if you development quick reflexes and body control for head movement. But since I don't like comparing Kung Fu, a martial art that had grappling kicks and punches to a martial art that only does punching, it doesn't feel fair. As such, comparing it to MMA is better. In MMA the guard is much wider, and it changes depending on the range. At a long range, Muay Thai high guard for greater field of view. At mid range, a slightly more open guard and a lead hand similar to what you described. At a close range, shelling is the preferred method as it is physically impossible for the human mid to react to incoming attacks. At clinching range, there is no longer a need for a guard. Your kung fu guard is best for mid range, a good close range kung fu guard would be the Wing Chun on. At a long kicking range, no need for a guard as much, just something that is easy to catch kicks. I practice Wing Chun with good knowledge in Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@hellohennessy3462 first of all thank you for the detailed and lengthy response. You seem a bit upset with the video... (1) I can say that traditional Chinese boxing has been compared to Western boxing since at least 1900 til now, is it fair? It's not but that's reality... Western boxing and TCMA has been compared to death for so many decades... But I think we're in agreement that TCMA and Boxing have different contexts/uses especially boxing in its modern incarnation (2) and that within punching and footwork, western boxers have certain training and skill advantages BUT in the modern day a lot of people ask me why I don't default to shelling up in that way and say that I should. I'm responding to them. If you're not ignorant of good boxing then you're not one of those people. 👍 For me, I don't feel comfortable attacking that ignorance from a western boxing perspective because it's not what I've done the longest and most of my fighting is informed by TCMA So, I think in me addressing ignorance I'm confronted with, I've ticked you off a bit... But all the same I appreciate you watching the video🙏

[@brianchin9130]

​@@the.wandering.warriorI very agree with your 2nd point. A lot of ignorant and many commentator saying that we should follow the default cover head style in order to secure our head . But I see most of boxer or mma even more didnt do it in many critical time and they can do it well.Its depend on how you plan your game according to your ability in relexes and tactic whatsoever ability to adjust it accordingly. Coz both side also have brain to nail and to find weak spot on each other.

[@georgegeorgiou8270]

My friend check out mma in china and you will understand why traditional arts dont work.

[@ShredST]

As someone who practices Tai Chi and did boxing for a couple of years, none of this is convincing to me. Tucking your chin does not mean you're front-weighted. Look at older boxers like George Benton, Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, etc. None of them were front-weighted. Your idea of how to keep your hands up is what people with no idea about boxing would do. Just search Joe Louis in google images and see where his hands are. And boxers typically keep their hands open for parrying. If the opponent pulls out a knife then a trained boxer can out run them easy. An outstretched hand is an outstretched target for the knife.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@ShredST the general advice of tucking your chin and keeping your hands up usually results in that type of posture in most new boxers that I've seen. If you did watch the whole video then you also know that I pointed out that good boxers don't actually do this... So you probably didn't watch the whole video or didn't pay attention 😂 Yet, people are asking me why I don't fight like that so I'm giving my reasons. I don't really care to convince you, but thanks for watching (if you actually watched it all). ☺️ Love it or hate it, feel free to share it

[@timotron100]

lil bro didn't even watch the whole video before commenting lol. Olden-day European bare-knuckle boxers/pugilists fought with the same/similar forward-hand stances as well. It's always the "know-it-all" "akshually" types like ol' mate commenting lmao.

[@ShredST]

@@the.wandering.warrior "good boxers don't actually do this" I'm not a good boxer, and the stance taught to me on day 1 was not what you described, not in the two boxing gyms I went to. There's no reason to teach a beginner to shell up as the default stance, because you can't punch out of it. It makes no sense. You essentially made up some wrong reasons to answer that question.

[@ShredST]

@@timotron100 If you face a trained fighter now, they will almost certainly aim for your chin, gloves or not. Just look at how many street fight knockout videos there are. Heck, even untrained fighters do it too, because that's what they see on UFC. Insisting on sticking your chin out because that's how 19th century prizefighters did it is hilariously misguided and detached from reality

[@hellohennessy3462]

​@@timotron100 You think at 1800s is the same as 2000s. Pugilist fought as such because people didn't target the head back then. Only body shots. Nowadays, everyone targets the head so you have to defend the head. Go up to someone, tell them to hit you, they'll punch you in the face, not the body. In the theory of evolution and natural selection terms, pugilist stance was the local optima for the 1800s while modern boxing stance is the new local optima for out current time period.

[@JapkickboxingMMA2]

Muay Thai vs Kickboxing - The Fight That Revolutionized MMA The World of Boxing! 3.9M subscribers Why this Thai fan JapkickboxingMMA0 verbally attack American kickboxing in Muay thai vs kickboxing fight? 😁 Boxing embarrassment - Few kicks and the boxer is just dead. Like how I knockouted Thai fan (bo_MMA) in one head kick and now he is crying none stop because his boxing cant do anything to me. Kick bam bam bam and he's down crying hahaha

[@user-zv9um9pb6w]

Statistically hands up and chin tucked reduces issues

[@Bonzi2]

For boxing. Not for MMA. Go watch the UFC and they keep their hands low

[@user-zv9um9pb6w]

@@Bonzi2 as they get knocked out

[@Bonzi2]

@@user-zv9um9pb6w maybe you should go to a wrestling class

[@jared0801]

Fighting is not that simple. Statistically, not fighting at all reduces issues as well, but thats not what is being discussed. Hands up chin tucked obviously is an important tool but its far from the full story.

[@RAPEDBYBLACKS]

If you spar bare knuckle or not you will learn to tuck your chin. You crash punches with the crown of your head. The whole argument of knife fighting is silly because nothing will help you. Although you are right about the transition and how it’s not static. Good channel, I’ll watch your other vids.

[@michaeljosephdimaano2802]

Xu Xioadong says otherwise.

[@mengmao5033]

Xu's focus is on combat sports. Traditional martial arts _should_ have something to offer there, but the current crop of fake masters aren't good a fighting in any contex or ruleset, so obviously they can't handle a few 1s and 2s.

[@the.wandering.warrior]

@@michaeljosephdimaano2802 😂 he calls out frauds which I think is good, though a bunch were waaaay older than him which seems a bit weird too... 🤷🏻‍♂️ Hey man he did what he had to do to get relevant on Chinese media, martial arts is a tough career