Don't Waste Your Money On Batteries - The Shocking Truth I Discovered When Testing RV Batteries

[@MortonsontheMove]

Watch my latest testing video where I compare 5 LiFePO4 battery brands head to head: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYnNmoOXjreLo9Usi=2L1pr026Ou3syQHR

[@snookrookie]

Just an informercial for battle born. Real world for me is my 3 batteries costing $240 has powered my RV more than 260 days off grid. My set up is 200 watts of solar and 200 amps of usable battery and total cost was $585. No longer think about batteries just use them. Life is good.

[@bryanmontello5702]

Awesome, I'm planning to do this for my gf. She lives in the Philippines so the grid is 220 there

[@brianfaust4422]

Hi sire sounds great to me . question what amp batterys do you have? With name brand are they, and were did you get them

[@hisnameisiam808]

Same question.

[@boblatkey7160]

Well I hope that works for you considering you don't even have your units correct.

[@amberemma6136]

I literally know nothing about the actual numbers but am very interested in going off grid with our home and business. What are you able to run off your set up?

[@smow999]

Whom ever created the science for this video, hats off to you. A perfect set of data points to push lithium, while ignoring industry standards on how AGM/Lead Acid batteries are tested and rated for their specifications. A lead acid battery's capacity is not determined by a 'loaded' battery and voltage, but instead by a specific time at rest, after discharge. Those AGM batteries were not at 50% DoD, at any of the specified load tests. Honestly, its great marketing! Nice job.

[@AiChatbot443]

Crazy we are here at the same time thinking the same thing.

[@2fuzy]

While it is basically a Battle born add lipo is a far better choice

[@OldManandtheSuperC]

The whole point for AGM versus flooded lead was the electrolyte wouldn’t spill and required less maintenance. It was never really designed to perform better but was designed for mobile use in boats, cars, motorcycles. This analysis would have been more useful if you had tested deep cycle golf cart batteries instead of cheapo versions. BTW I purchased Trojans for less per AH than the cheapo Sam’s club deep cycle batteries.

[@DrMatthewHudson]

This!

[@user-my8zo8uh3n]

AND ALOT MORE FIRE PROOF LOL....

[@jeffreyumeh8580]

@@user-my8zo8uh3n Dude these are LFP Lithium Ion cells, people have drilled holes in them and nothing has happened, like don't tempt fate or anything because these is a lot of potential energy in those cells, but they are pretty darn safe as long as you don't have a lot of other cells to feed into them without a fuse to stop massive amounts of current going into 1 cell, like in the case of a car battery even if you make it out of LFP cells like you have to have a lot of cells in series to get the 100s of volts they want, but for 12 to 48V systems where you can put breakers or fuses between each parrellel string of batteries it's stupid safe. You are thinking about NMC cells, which nobody sells those anymore for residential energy storage, yeh they get used in phones and EVs because the weight and size matters a lot of those use cases, but for a house battery the extra safety and the increase in the number of cycles from 1000 to 5000 cycles of LFP is more than worth the extra volume and weight.

[@spanishtreasure9551]

and theres more , agm or lead acid will out last a lithium batteyr due to lithuim battery having a bms charging board inside that fails over time,(right when you least expect it) , this bms electronics( lead acid and agm Dont have ANY charging electronics) cant handle in and out current (NO matter what the company rep , china or the warranty says) . also as many marine guys do on here and show , you can mix 2 or 3 agm or lead acid batteries to every 1 lithium and tie them together resulting in Great power that compliments each other .

[@dreddredd7137]

@@user-my8zo8uh3n You got that right . When i was looking on this subject for power storage my first impression was that lithium has a lot of advantages against other battery's exept fires , and i saw many of them with this kind of battery's . Its called Termal Runaway , its heating up ( by a bad BMS and / or because of the chemical reaction ) and fires break out and even explosions occure . Now that is reason enough to not buying these and take the best ( affordable ) one in line ( AGM ) i also give you a reason what else can occure and make these systems to throw away . Ever heard of the Carrington Event from 1859 and the fires and shocks that event deliverd , that is called Geo Induced Current . Spaceweather and KP-Index storms can cause to electrical components ( BMS ) to fail ( and maybe even start chemical processes ) and because the earths magnetic field is declining fast the impact of smal storms can be enormous . This means much more of these lithium fires the can burn for days or even weaks , very bad if that is the place where you live and have your stuff and foods .

[@therasheck]

I don't think this video will shock me, for I am well grounded.

[@clayed]

I don't think this video will shock me, for I am well insulated.

[@LEIGHTONSTEW]

But you did gt a charge out of it , yes?

[@dallassukerkin6878]

@@LEIGHTONSTEW Beat me to it! Now I am flat ... ...

[@anullhandle]

@@clayed The best way to live up to your potential.

[@rickquick8977]

Good to know dad jokes aren't dead yet.

[@casegarrison4488]

I've owned RVs (and lived on a sailboat!) off and on for almost two decades, and I've always ended up shrugging my shoulders and hoping for the best when it came to house power. Now that we have a newer fifth wheel, I'm trying to decide what direction to take house power and charging. The typical forums are filled with opinions and tribal knowledge, but little data. Your testing methodology and explanations were tremendously helpful, and provided useful real-world comparisons. I'm mechanically inclined, but certainly no electrical engineer, and I still came away with a much more thorough understanding of the state of the art (or science) in power storage today!

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thank you! Glad you found the video helpful. :)

[@ryanskare6670]

Great information. A lot of us are more concerned with the actual amp hour performance because we run equipment that draws a specific amount of amps. Knowing that capacity helps us decide the appropriate battery.

[@matthewwiemken7293]

LFP gives a lot when pulled hard. lead acid drops a lot when pulled hard.

[@menglei6301]

@@matthewwiemken7293 Yes, I think so too, after all this is a video from two years ago, now the LFP batteries are twice as powerful as lead acid batteries at the same weight and last longer, I bought ADCBATT 12v 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon for my RV and towing machine, much better than the old lead acid, maybe this is technology changing life.

[@RVgeeks]

This kind of thoughtful, detailed information is so helpful, and presented so thoroughly. Awesome work, Tom! The incredible amount of work that you (and Cait!) put into creating, shooting, and editing a piece like this is obvious. How lucky the RV community is to have you as an asset. 👏

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thanks guys! This was a tremendous ammount of work and we appreciate you noticing. :)

[@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt]

@@MortonsontheMove The level of work necessary to create as thorough a piece as this is obvious. Echoing _RV Geeks'_ sentiment, _Mortons on the Move_ are a tremendous asset to the entire RV community.

[@BEASTmodeontheRoad]

@@MortonsontheMove senpai notices

[@ijblessjourney]

Agree truly helps for us who are currently looking at upgrading to lithium.

[@ambersmith6517]

so true this guy knows what he is doing so refreshing

[@jimleverso9155]

First of all, GREAT video and very extensive testing. I've been on the fence about changing out my current OEM flooded battery for Battle Born for a couple of years now. The one point that wasn't pointed out in the video about cost is that its not just the cost of swapping out the flooded battery for a lithium battery, but the significant additional required cost to replace the OEM inverter/charger with one that supports lithium, and for many people, the labor cost of engineering the lithium battery/charger/inverter solution to replace the OEM system, not to mention, for many of us, the cost to upgrade the alternator in our trucks to handle charging of the lithium cells while we're on the road. So, while there is no denying that using lithium cells are much better performance, for many it comes down to a cost vs benefit especially when factoring in the additional mandatory costs necessary to move to lithium. Thanks again for your very extensive report. You guys continue to put out very informative videos. Hope to see you both on the road. Keep it up!

[@TravelWithTheHs]

Right on point. This is why I came to the comments to make this exact point. This is the only thing keeping me from doing the switch.

[@tarefoot]

I would really like to see his reply to this. This has been a question in my mind as if my existing converter would charge a lithium battery. I'd like to know just what you would have to do. Thanks for your comment.

[@Rumline7]

@@tarefoot Look up the make and model (maybe serial number too since sometimes mfg's change things mid cycle) and call the manufacturer. Ask them if that charger supports a LiFePO4 charge profile. If yours was made in the past 3-4 years it could well be compatible already. Prior to that probably not unless you have a high-end model. Even if it's not compatible currently I've heard that some models can be upgraded to support lithium fairly easily and at low/no cost either through new firmware or a circuit board replacement.

[@tarefoot]

@@Rumline7 Thanks Michael......

[@catmonkey4351]

Damn, even my van alternator could possibly need to be changed? Would my Ford Dealer know this info? I'm considering a LiPo system...

[@sectokia1909]

Great video but the general claim at the end that Lead acid "are not reliable to be used in a power application" is utter garbage. They are now no longer the most cost effective way, but they have been used in power applications for an extremely long time. We have been using them to power entire hotels on fraser island for over 3 decades, back when Lithium ion batteries were still at >$10,000 per kilowatthour.

[@somaday2595]

"are not reliable to be used in a power application"... yep. I guess electric forklifts run on air?

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@somaday2595 If you're still using Lead Acid in forklifts, you're pissing money out the outlets. REAL cheapskates agree with Hank Hill on the most cost-effective way to run a forklift.

[@somaday2595]

@@TimeSurfer206 Who is Hank Hill? If the cost is already sunk, the batteries are a counter balance and the lift is meeting the requirements, why do you say continuing to use lead acid batteries in forklifts is wasting money?

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@somaday2595 Hank Hill is a fictional character on the TV Show "King of the Hill." "I sell Propane and Propane Accessories."

[@obfuscated3090]

Lead-acid batteries have been "reliable" since the late 1800s. They work in demanding conditions and tolerate abuse well. Lead-acid batteries powered every submarine until the nuclear era which when submerged is ALL the power generation unless the diesel sub is running a snorkel to recharge them.

[@nortonnewmann3711]

I investigated "house battery power" for our Class C motorhome within a month of purchase. It had a single 12 volt marine battery from the dealer - and most people who've bought an RV KNOW how those batteries are treated! I knew I wanted solar, so 200 watts went on the roof. Next, I replaced the stock 20Amp PWM charge controller with a more robust 40 Amp MPPT controller. Then came the storage device. All I needed was a reliable source of 12 volt power to operate the motorhome slide, run the furnace fan, led lights and minimal power for the propane fridge (when not on shore power). If we need the AC, a hair dryer or coffee maker (high amp draw devices), we either run our on-board 4k generator or plug into shore power. So... 100 useable amp hours kept reliably charged would be perfect. My choice came down to two options: LiFePO4 12 volt (no maintenance) or flooded GC2 6 volt golf cart batteries (minimal maintenance). Two 6 volt batteries? $180, lifespan 4 years = $45 per year. One lithium? $900, lifespan 10 years = $90 per year. For me, the real world math tells the story. The cost/benefit ratio just isn't there yet for lithium.

[@davidgirolametto393]

Believe that the cost of the 6v batteries will be twice what you quoted, thus equalling the annual cost of the lithium batteries. Factor in that the lithium batteries have considerably more usable power and your way ahead with the lithium.

[@jeoinaforest]

@@davidgirolametto393 Agreed. Plus, the dreaded "oh no...we are fully discharged" is real and is not a big deal with lithium...but I've found that even after a SINGLE "fully discharged" event my FLA deep cycles no longer work as well as they did. I will absolutely be replacing with Lithium next time.

[@stevelamperta865]

I've run lead acid and now lithium and there's absolutely no comparison ! I will never run anything but lithium from now on . Its half the cost when you figure everything correctly . And no maintenence !

[@nortonnewmann3711]

@@stevelamperta865 Some buy a Prevost; some buy a Thor coach... to each their own. In the end it's about usable amp hours. What you decide to pay for those amp hours is up to you.

[@nortonnewmann3711]

@@davidgirolametto393 $97 each at Sam's Club. 2x = less than $200. 215 amp hours ÷ 2 (1/2 usable) = 107 available amp hours. Now... how much does 107 amp hours cost going the lithium route?

[@shepherdsknoll]

I recently took my Tesla camping. Tesla has a setting called “Camp Mode”. This setting allows the air to be circulated, filtered, conditioned and at a temperature of your choice. We set it at 70 degrees. All night we were so comfortable and in the morning there was not one drop of condensation on the windows. This was such a great experience and I couldn’t help but wonder if any rv had this feature, evidently not.

[@tracym427]

Meaning you slept inside the Tesla all night? Very interested in this.

[@shepherdsknoll]

@@tracym427 , in all Teslas the back seats fold down, all Models are surprisingly comfortable. You can even buy aftermarket memory foam that is shaped to conform to the space.

[@tracym427]

@@shepherdsknoll tell me this.. with a Tesla, can you going into a store for say 30 min and set your ac to stay on so when you get back in it’s nice and cold? I know that’s ridiculous to most, but I live in Texas and it super hot in the summers. I usually remote start my truck when I’m walking away from it so it will run for 10 min w/ac on.

[@mr.carter4061]

Pet mode?

[@jonathanmelhuish4530]

@@tracym427 Yes, you can even set it from your phone using the Tesla app.

[@bradatherton9369]

Great video! I'm afraid some of the manufacturer specs may have been taken out of context. They are OCV (open circuit voltage). BCI (Battery Council International) regulates how lead acid batteries are spec'd, 100% DoD is 1.75v per cell or 10.5v for a 12v battery. The voltage drop in the 80A case will cause the lead acid capacities to be misrepresented dramatically. The Peukert Constant for a lead acid is around 1.3, whereas Li Ion does very well with a constant of less that 1.1, so Li Ion will still win this battle but by a lesser margin. Including cost, or dollar-per-watt-hour, you might be impressed at how well lead acid does. Also, were the lead acid batteries equalized regulary? For the the record, I'm a power electronics engineer and have worked for a Li Ion manufacturer and ran a lead acid desulfation research company.

[@ahuramazda323]

Have you noticed he did not reply to you? Its because of the hidden agenda here.

[@solarwind907]

I thought of your point regarding open circuit voltage versus voltage under a load. To someone who knows batteries like yourself, it’s obvious that if you have a battery under a 50 amp load and compare to 1 under a 5 amp load, The higher the load, the lower the voltage even at the exact same state of charge and the same temp. You are correct that the voltage/SOC numbers given by the lead acid batt manus assume room temperature and no load conditions. FYI, I’m not an engineer but I have worked on power systems with flooded and AGM lead acid batteries for decades and my field experience agrees with yours. It was great for me to read your comment :-). Thank you.

[@user-ze7tl2dw4i]

This is what we need the dislike button for.

[@philbrooke-little7082]

Thank you, you saved me typing about the OCV. While I absolutely think Lithium is far better for off grid living I don’t think it helps giving a skewed view by misinterpreting the charge floor of lead acid, it actually invalidates most of the data.

[@ddannyable]

@@user-ze7tl2dw4i use an google extension to show dislikes.atm this vid have 1.6k dislikes

[@NapaHarp]

Great video and informative information. Especially the part that how cost affective the Flooded 6V Lead Acid Batteries are. I know that the LiFeP04’s are the latest and the greatest and that is what the video is pushing; however, your information about the cheep flooded 6V lead acid batteries says it all. They are very cost effective for what they are. Most RV’s are not pulling down 80amps on their batteries and the lead acid batteries handle the 8amp range very well.

[@davidparker7156]

they are not cost effective over the life of a battery when compared to lithium. Especially if you build your own

[@iamdeji]

Exactly my point. 8amp on 100Ah battery is not efficient. It is more than the 20 hour rating. He needs a minimum 160Ah lead acid battery bank for 8amps to be efficient. 1600Ah for 80amps. His lead acid battery bank is too small. I agree with using Lithium ion for high discharge but this video is not a fair comparison.

[@andrehunter1295]

What do you think he earn his money from ? Giving away Lithium battery 😂

[@setatrainingdirector3033]

Nice work. 25 years ago during my apprenticeship, I worked at Sears Auto Center. The cheaper car battery was better because there was more room between the lead cells. The more expensive batteries got hotter, the lead expanded and shorted out; this killing the battery.

[@Deontjie]

I think that was a build in design, to sell more batteries.

[@bingosunnoon9341]

The heavier batteries do indeed short out with greater frequency, they have less acid too.

[@wtcamer]

@@Deontjie No that is science.

[@hyperlogos]

@@wtcamer The plural of anecdote is not data, and this is only even one anecdote

[@daveofyorkshire301]

This is an advertisement... Not naming the competition is to prevent legal challenge from them... If this is a true test why not other brands?

[@johnnylightning1491]

Good stuff Tom. The results don't surprise me, but it's nice to see it confirmed. Keep the good stuff coming.

[@colinsmith6340]

This is a very very good testing system. One point to note though is that you are not ever supposed to measure lead acid battery voltage levels while under load/charge to get any significantly decent reading. I would love to do that "discharge to death" test again for the AGMs, but give them a break. Say every 25 minutes, let them rest for 5 mins to rebound, measure voltage, then repeat. Otherwise the comment saying that an AGM 50 percent level is 12.0 volts is quite literally useless, as with the 8 amp load connected and with battery and cable internal resistance along with peukorts law throwing its annoyances in the voltage under load is just a bare indicate that the battery is still alive, not "oh we have passed the 50.00 percent mark." Other then that though there is some very important info here, especially with the difference between cheap and expensive AGMs. The floodeds also had a suprising uptick, but they are annoying to store and use in a sealed or semi-sealed environment. Very good data though, but with the voltage measurements under load being all suspect some retesting will have to be done. I bet that if you hit the "half capacity ah consumption" point at around 12.0 volts, and allowed the battery to rest, it would bounce back to around 12.2 volts as per the manufacturers spec sheet. Would LOVE to see scientific testing of that.

[@JeremyAkersInAustin]

This wasn't supposed to be "scientific". This test mimicked real world use of these batteries. People aren't buying these to bench test them. No-one in a boat or RV is going to be able to configure their inverter to turn off all loads to test the voltage, and then turn them back on (or not) depending on if the voltage rebounds. What they did in this video is a more "real world" test because this is how inverters are typically programmed in a boat or RV. They don't have the luxury of turning off all loads for an hour, waiting for the voltage to rebound and then turning the RV appliances back on again, etc. Notice that the Lithium batteries were tested in exactly the same way and didn't need this sort of pampering with turning the loads off to check the voltages. And that's the point: In a RV/boat application the Lithium's give you much more *usable* energy for the money.

[@jamesop22]

Sounds like some vw testing lol

[@mitchpender8113]

@@JeremyAkersInAustin unfortunately the test was designed to show lithium batteries where they are at their optimum , constant discharge …lead acid batteries bounce back after discharging , in fact a constant discharge is very uncommon in a RV / boat typically batteries cycle between discharge/ charge / idle .. That is a real world test , this is a sponsored video with the test optimised for lithium ion , that being said for inverter use or high discharge requirements lithium is superior, lead acid batteries preform far better that this test showed.. btw 12.2v is 60% .. 12.05 is 50% Again a marketing ploy to make lithium look more cost effective than they are

[@scotforshaw]

Kind of agree, but also have empathy for the comments that say it was supposed to reflect real world conditions. I frequently am amazed how well my leisure battery bounces back after a short high load drain.

[@agw5425]

In mechanic school we were taught that a lead acid battery is empty at 10.5V, this is the lowest voltage you should use them at, at 10-20 degree C. If you have a high current short duration draw you may be better of running it on a start battery rather than a "house" battery as they are made for high intensity short draw (and fast recharge after use) like a starter motor.

[@dsphotoscapes]

Awesome information! Pretty much as I expected...if you use the RV a lot, go Lithium...if you use the RV here and there, Lead Acid is better than AGM.

[@SuperVstech]

@@ferp420 ... wow. I would love to see those dead lithium iron phosphate batteries you destroyed...

[@SuperVstech]

@@ferp420 any chance you are near NC?

[@vicabobtravels]

Watched your video and during the whole time watching I was thinking full time RV person as opposed to the part time RV person. I am a part time RV person and the cost of lithium would be way too much. If I was planning on full time boondocking and RVing, I would have no problem investing in lithium. A real world scenario would include use over time.

[@krissfemmpaws1029]

I enjoyed this report and found it interesting, with that said I can't justify the expense of switching from my 6 volt golf cart batteries I have now.

[@kcajmortsnnew1488]

EXACTLY...i got excited a couple yrs. ago , but thinking further , just couldn't justify $2K to run my fridge.....bought 2 6 v. golf cart batts.; but wish i could afford these...and there is the exploding batt facet

[@IDVDalot]

Great thinking Bob!

[@mckenziekeith7434]

Yeah. The 6V golf batteries will last a part timer 3 or 5 years (if you take care of them). The Battleborn batteries will cost 6 or 7 times more and last for 10 or more years. The cheaper batteries will still be cheaper over any reasonable time span.

[@johnpianezze6519]

I disagree. This analysis shows that Lithium is more cost-effective over the lifespan of the battery, and this has nothing to do with how often it gets used. Although $900 for the Battle Born is a lot to pay up front, it will last 10 to 30 years, vs. 2-3 years for a pair of 6V golf cart batteries (assuming you wouldn't buy AGM because they are very expensive for what you get). Hence the lithium dilemma: are you willing to pull the trigger on the high upfront cost to get a lifetime of benefits?

[@lawrencebush2603]

I served on diesel-electric submarines for 7 years. We had two main batteries on the last submarine I served on. Each battery consisted of 126 lead-acid cells that weighed about 1200 pounds when filled with electrolyte (distilled water and acid). Each cell was rated at 2.0 volts for 250 vdc per battery and connected through switch for normal operation of 250 volts but could beconnected in series for short bursts of high speed maneuvering (1/2 hour). We charged the batteries when new to over 13.0 volts per cell, verified by continuous electrolyte readings during charging. Typically the batteries were discharged into the high 10.0 volt per cell reading before charging. After several years and a number of monitored cylcles and deep equalizing charges the batteries arrive at a condition where the would no longer reach a high enough charge and sometimes a cell would reverse charge and would need to be disconnected and bypassed with a corresponding cell in the other battery. So lithium batteries might be better than a lead-acid battery, but you are not taking all factors into consideration. I have also worked with large lead-acid batteries used in large buildings to bridge power outages till emergency power gensets coul come on line. Similar results.

[@ashforkdan]

That would make a great solar battery.

[@ElectricityTaster]

The military is lowest bidder.

[@Relic142]

I'm unsure of the conclusion you are making with this story. Are you saying if those lead acid batteries on the sub were replaced with lithium they would not perform as well in certain applications or overall? Can you tell me one factor he needs to take into consideration in the video where lead-acid in general is better other than the one mention in the video. He did list a car starter battery as an ideal situation for lead-acid.

[@privateparty4900]

2 volt cells charged to 13 volts? So you went from 250vdc nominal to 1600vdc? It seems like you would just get boiling/electrolysis if you tried to charge a lead acid cell to 10 or 13v...but I guess I haven't exactly tried.

[@Factory400]

13v per cell? Whaaaaaaat?

[@spencerstorck3298]

Great info! Wish I could go lithium but for the price of one battery I got a goal zero 400 a spare 35ah to chain to it and a 54l fridge and 150w solar panel and still had money to spare. It all works for me I run the fridge as just fridge but can do fridge freezer, charge phone, cameras, drone, RC and radios and it still cranking after 3 years. Run it in cold and hot weather and I'm out almost weekly using it

[@the_kingd0m]

Goal zero 400 is lithium based...

[@davidkbush5299]

Tom, this was unparalleled. The industry has long needed this depth of analysis. Thank you.

[@digger105337]

"Unparalleled "? Perhaps he should make it a " Series" 🤣 battery humor.....

[@scottleggejr]

@@digger105337 I play a couple other youtube channels at the same time in the background and have 3 phase lithium information. I don't know wye I do this 🤷‍♂️

[@randallsemrau7845]

He makes a lot of cost claims which depend entirely on the number of cycles someone will get out of the advanced chemistry batteries, but they never did test the cycle capability of them. They just depend on the manufacturers claims regarding that figure, while at the same time ragging on lead acid battery builders for falling short on their claims. I'm not sure how assuming cycle life qualifies this exercise as 'in-depth analysis'. And please don't just tell us what these batteries 'typically see' regarding cycle life. They are supposedly 'doing science' here and coming up with life cost figures which are heavily influenced by how many times these babies are gonna take and give up, a decent charge.

[@Tinkerdog7]

@@randallsemrau7845 totally agree, and he had to come up with a 80a (almost 1kw) load to try and say the lithium battery was better than the flooded battery which is totally unrealistic. No one runs a 1kw constant load off a single battery except for cranking and if you are cranking for an hour and your vehicle doesn’t start then it’s not your battery! Oh and I know of a lot of lithium batteries fitted to range rovers that failed after a few years, never heard of a lead acid battery having to be replaced before 10 years so the cycles should be tested!

[@missingegg]

@@Tinkerdog7 You missed a key point in the video: they're testing banks of batteries, so when he talks about drawing 80 amps, that's 20 amps per battery, which is an entirely realistic load. While I agree it would be great to see independent testing of battery cycles, that would require thousands of hours of testing. For example, drawing 2 amps off a lead acid battery for 20 hours, and then repeating 100 times is 4000 hours. He did show a chart that Battle Born produced from when they were testing their battery's cycle life, and that number of cycles would take well more than a year to test. Considering he was just visiting Reno for a handful of days, criticizing him for not testing cycle life is unrealistic. It's reasonable to take cycle life with a grain (or perhaps large rock) of salt, but the data he produced is still immensely valuable.

[@christopherwhitney2711]

We seem to know this already in Australia as 4x4 enthusiasts and manufacturers have extensively covered this problem ad nausea. The drawback with Li's is it won't start your 4x4. Besides the idea isn't to have a stand alone battery to run flat, that's nuts, but to keep it topped up either as dual battery system in your vehicle, and if you can, taking advantage of portable solar by using a proper dcdc charger with a built in battery isolator, mppt and ETFO charging. You should even be using the mains at home or a generator to keep your battery healthy when it's on standby. So, in this scenario I just mentioned when properly rigged AGM's are fine to get you going and if done well some people never change. The idea of having a battery to discharge without topping it up or having a backup is a bogus application in a real world scenario, except if its for a small cheap throw away toy.

[@FreedomToRoam86]

Very good review! The one thing I would propose is that lead-acid batteries would make sense for RV'ers who only occasionally go camping, and only run off batteries before hooking up to shore power, such as putting out the slide-out or using the toilet before you get the hook-ups done, or an occasional night in a Walmart parking lot on the way to a campground. For that application, I would argue that they make sense, as long as not expecting too much out of them (small lights, water pump). But it is good to know that isn't worth buying expensive ones for that!

[@Schmitz3]

Yep, 2 - 6 Volt golf cart batteries will do the job and easily last 5 years if you take care of them.

[@RVstreet]

@@Schmitz3 But will do a lot more than what Dells said above. Been FTing now for 5yrs. with our 2 - Trojan 105's ($325) and they have served us very well. But having a robust battery bay is only a part of the FTing story. We just replaced our Trojans with 2 new ones after 5 years. Lifepo4 batteries are for folks who have a lot of money to spend and do a lot of off grid living. Otherwise the ROI is not worth it. Besides that , I don't want all my eggs in one basket.

[@headdown1]

@@RVstreet Lithium iron phosphate are much cheaper in the long run than lead acid. They are actually for people who plan to use them a lot, and then they save money. I've been using my 3 - 303 amp hour Lifeblue lithium batteries for over 4 years, and have not lost a single percent of capacity yet. Do that with lead acid.

[@RVstreet]

@@headdown1 I hear what your saying, I truly do but they're not cheaper in the long run. Hear me out. At $325 for 2 Trojans that lasted five years, I could replace them 5 or 6x's for the cost of 2 lithiums. That's 25yrs. of battery life. Way longer than I'll ever own the RV. The Trojans I replaced still had plenty of life in them too, but I changed them out anyway as a PM item to start fresh again. But changing to lithium batt's is not the whole story. You usually also have to change the converter and the inverter too for them to work right as a complete charging and usable system. That's even more money. But what DJ86 said in the beginning I totally agree with. The ROI to go Lithium just isn't worth it unless you you do a lot of off grid living and need a ton of usable Ah's. We do some off grid living and we've done just fine with our Trojans for the past 5yrs. along with other power solutions I've installed like portable solar. But in all fairness, if Lithiums work better for you then that's fantastic. 👍

[@headdown1]

@@RVstreet I used lead acid my first 6 months on the road, then I switched to Lifeblues. I hated the lead acid batteries. I had to buy and carry twice the batteries and the weight as what I actually needed, since going below 50% SOC is a no - no. The weight is a huge deal in an RV. If I wasn't plugged in, in the morning my two lead acid batteries would badly need charging if I used the furnace. So down the road I would go, giving them a lousy trickle charge using the alternator. Unless it was a very long day, this would not give them a proper charge by the end of the day. Lead acid likes a few hours of charge after hitting 100% and I could almost never provide that without a lot of hassle. So every day, the batteries were abused and degraded, just due to the reality of travelling in an RV with them. I have no desire to switch out batteries every 5 years and few people actually get that long out of lead acid while RVing anyway. Not having to do that 5 or 6 times is worth something to me. As is being able to store them under my bed with no venting. No maintenance, and all I need to know about the internal workings of the battery bank is provided with an iPhone app. I do agree that to make it worthwhile, you have to be either full timing or rich. But if you ARE full timing, and especially if you use solar panels, there is absolutely no comparison. I can ram in all the power the sun or shore power or a generator can give the battery bank, unlike lead acid which takes forever to charge, and then needs hours of top up once charged to stay healthy. My 240 lbs of Lifeblues would become well over 500 lbs of lead acid. And perform much worse for its short lifespan. I know there are folks who lead acid still makes sense. After having Lifeblues for over 4 years, I feel sorry for them. :) They truly do not know what they are missing. After using lithium iron phosphate, using lead acid batteries seems like starting a fire by rubbing two sticks together instead of using a Bic lighter.

[@marklewus5468]

I want to thank you for the tremendous work you put in here. I test a lot of batteries and it annoys me that most of them do not meet their specs. This has gotten *much* worse in recent years. I’m talking about you, “9000 mAh” 18650 cells from China.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thank you!

[@esecallum]

You can buy 100000 mAh batteries for 5 dillars

[@ToFightTheGoodFight]

@@esecallum 😳😱🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@carotan6075]

No one will claim 9000mAh if 18650 unless he knows you are a fool. You buy what you pay, I think you'd have basic acknowledge about the price of battery(LFP/NMC), if the price is not reasonable, then there's something unhappt happen.

[@mefirst4266]

SAMSUNG 18650 ARE MADE IN KOREA. AND THEY ARE THE ONLY REAL 18650 BATTERY. THE ONLY THING CHINA MAKES THAT IS BETTER IS FUCKING LIES AND PROPAGANDA

[@user-my8zo8uh3n]

GREAT TEST ENJOYED IT ALOT, BUT TELL ME IM WRONG I THINK LITHIUM BATTERY FIRES ARE NBR 1 WORLD WIDE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM FOR RANDOM FIRES , CARS ETC AND IN GENERAL, ME PERSONALY I LIKE TO COME BACK TO MY RV INTACT NOT BURNT TO THE GROUND AND THATS SMALL PRICE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING STILL DOES THE JOB BUT YOU CAN HAVE GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP AND NOT WORRY BOUT A FIRE .

[@scotthelmann5156]

Excellent series of tests and review- all your tests confirm that the data from all my my experiments over the last 8 years are indeed accurate. Next up- perhaps you should talk about the difference between manufactures ratings of solar panel output and what you will see from a year old system in real life! This would be another huge eye opener for so many people!

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thank you!

[@robertdavenport7802]

One thing to consider. IF you have to install your batteries inside, standard lead acids are out unless you vent. And at this point in time LiFePO batteries are close to the same price as AGMs for the same effective capacity. I just swapped out my exhausted 6V 4x225 AH AGM bank for 12V 2x100AH SOK LiFePOs in my older B+ van. Effective capacity is about the same. I had to change out the General Dynamics converter - that was $300. I also added a DC to DC charger to allow alternator charging - $170. Existing solar charger still worked. The LiFePO batteries cost 2x$570 = $1140. An AGM battery replacement cost for the same VmaxTanks AGMs is 4x$330 = $1320. My cost for LiFePO upgrade was (300+170+1140=1610 no labor cost, I did that myself) vs AGM replacement of 1320 or about $300 more.

[@Pensrud]

great comment :D

[@ToFightTheGoodFight]

Thanks 👌

[@CoralSea]

Is LiFePO the same as LFP? Are they supposed to be very safe?

[@stephentaylforth4731]

On the advantages that lead acid have over lithium, the sheer mass of lead acid can be useful sometimes. I'm disabled and get around in an electric wheelchair/ When my chair is stopped with lead acid batteries it does a good impression of being welded to the floor which is great when I'm out of the chair and manoeuvring myself around by leaning on the chair. I can be reasonably confident the beast isn't going to move because it weighs so much.

[@LucScheffers]

Some battery powered forklift experience: heated lithium in freeze warehouse is already 7 years old tech. Secondly, There is no such thing as a lifecycle or charge cycles for Lithium. You might think a 5000 count lifecycle divided by 365 days in a year is a whopping 13,7 years of service. Nope. As a lithium battery capacity degrades from the moment fabricated a % per year. So it is impossible to predict thus test to what capacity one should test. It is not 100% for sure. Specially at temps above 40°C parasitic reactions occur much faster and disable ions. Also is charging to a 100% SOG more degrading than charging to 75 to 90%. Sadly no realistic charger has that ability. Only calendar capacity loss can is appellabel to the chemical kinetics not charge cycles. Practical this means that your new lithium batteries in your RV charging @100% each day, while on holiday in the desert, might end up at 94% capacity when you return. Although the software of your battery controller still call this 94% (has calculated this as max sog ) a 100%SOG. simply because it can not take in more. which does not mean the max capacity it ones had. I have not seen a Lithium battery with a lifespan of 8 years without severe degradation yet. Mostly BMS will give up after 3-5 years. An other problem with lithium life span is the dependency on many many more parts and connections which can and do, fail much more compared to Lead acid systems. When it comes to reliability and proces continuity, swapping out batteries is not perse a bad thing. And last but certainly not the least is the environmental impact of Lithium batteries. Which is extreme compared to lead acid. Although the start the same by mining, after use lead acid batteries are very easy to recycle. Lithium requires a lot of metals like cobalt, iron, lithium, copper, aluminum, and it takes a 3 stage energy costing toxic proces which release many very harmful chemicals that even after treatment with again chemicals becomes to be burned toxic chemical trash, which again results in a lot of toxic chemicals.

[@brads.3674]

This is so far above and beyond anything I've seen or read on this topic...it’s amazing! Thank you and the folks at battle born.

[@BEASTmodeontheRoad]

Have ya not seen Will Prowesses videos on building your own batteries, if not should totally check it out

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thank you for watching!

[@williamarmstrong7199]

@@ferp420 ?? ? Yes how clear do you want it to be stated? He says many many times lead acid is rubbish and very expensive. They do not last as long as stated or supply anything like the power lead acid manufacturers state. Clear enough for you now?

[@RubberontheroadIndonesia]

Don't believe everything you see on KZbin!!

[@glenmartin2437]

Thank you for your video. I am dyslexic so you said "lithium ion", but the batteries are "lithium iron phosphate." The chemistries are a bit different. The LiFePO4 cells are less prone to thermal runaway. I am grateful it is LiFePO4. You did a great video. Thank you for all the effort and making it available.

[@TomSpurlock]

Good data, thanks for sharing. You forgot to mention the other virtues of Lithium batteries. 1. They weigh half as much as AGM. 2. No venting is required for Lithium, they can be put most anywhere. 3 You can mount the Lithium in any orientation for stacking, unlike AGM that must be mounted with the top side up.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Good points! I would have loved to go into more detail, but whew... thats a long video! Maybe when i compare different lithium brands in the future.

[@guywood67]

AGM can be mounted sideways or in other orientations. Flooded have to be mounted top side up.

[@warrenmaloney2497]

I was at 50% way through this video at room temp and I'm nun the wiser ! My brain shut down from low volts.

[@roadboat9216]

Ha ha ha hah

[@genesnyder2985]

Or watts or amps??

[@ralphandrews7721]

Way too wonky to be useful to the average consumer

[@butwhatdoiknow5115]

Great Video, I'm just a bit confused why you refer to Lifepo4 batteries as "Lithium ion" or are you saying "Iron" ? Lifepo4 and Lithium ion are obviously completely different batteries so I'm just a bit confused with your terminology but the excel obviously clears that up. Just not sure from the video what you're concluding as the battleborn batt is not a liION battery but is a LiFepo4 battery.

[@Kris_M]

That is not correct, LiFePO4 is just another type of lithium ion.

[@butwhatdoiknow5115]

@@Kris_M one uses lithium cobalt dioxide or lithium manganese oxide as a cathode and the other uses lithium iron phosphate. They're not interchangeable or anywhere near the same in terms of their composition, lifetime or applications or even the cost. A lifepo4 battery costs much less than a lithium ion branded battery of the same rating so how do you mean it's incorrect or one is a subset of the other? Certain principles are the same but that's about it

[@Kris_M]

@@butwhatdoiknow5115 Branding doesn't determine what they are *precisely*, all those types are lithium ion chemistry. LiFePO4 also falls under the term lithium ion. And I see those other chemistries mostly branded as "Li-ion" anyway, not as "Lithium ion"

[@butwhatdoiknow5115]

@@Kris_M Fair enough. I guess I'm just just looking at the finer details not generally. I've worked with "Li-ion", Lithium Polymer on smaller electronics quite a lot and they don't seem as robust as these guys Lifep04 type at all. These are also not as common where I stay in South Africa and can't figure out why more people aren't using these, they seem really good !

[@Kris_M]

@@butwhatdoiknow5115 TBH, I also learned about them "just" 2 years ago when I ran into Will Prowse's channel. I had the same reaction, why aren't we using these all over the place? Apparently they have been widely available for a while now, especially as solar batteries, but they are mostly advertised as "solar", "lithium" or "lithium-ion" batteries without an obvious "LiFePO4" indication. Issue for mobile use is of course lower energy density per weight, although Tesla has been using them now on (some?) models.

[@TaylorvilleOptimist]

Tom, all great information... for the seven battery engineers watching. For the rest of us, all we need to know is; what do we need, battery wise, to run our furnace overnight, in 20 degree temperatures. I recently had to run my generator overnight to keep the batteries charged up, as the furnace was too much drain for an overnight period. There are, of course, other small amp draws (refrigerator controller, thermostat, built in radio, etc.) that add to that drain, but for the most part, what do we need to be able to run the furnace overnight? Thanx for all your work and willingness to share what you learned

[@MortonsontheMove]

Good question, one charged 100AH lithium will do it. Considering the furnace draws 300W that would be 4 hours continuous run, assuming a 20-30 percent duty cycle your looking at 12-14 hours usable runtime. If its a 50% duty it will just get you through. always depends on your loads. I will write a blog post on this topic!

[@andrewzenn1719]

Tom, ironically people can understand miles per gallon, and yet amp hours or watt hours confound them. See it all the time. Would be nice to.see you draw analogies. Describe in painfully basic terms the difference between and amp and a watt. And then throw in what a watt hour is. Most rvers do not understand the difference between an amp and a volt and a watt. Electrozoom did.some nice things but he wouldn't appeal to rvers. You glanced over it and then you hand waved like a good EE. I explain this all the time but you are.getting paid. Good luck.

[@conniechapin9278]

Andrew Zenn, the problem is that there are 3 ways to measure electricity. Amps, watts and volts. And then there is AC and DC. That gets converted back and forth in an RV. MPG is easy to understand for us in USA, but if we where talking to someone in another country that did LPK (liters per kilometers) we'd be a bit confused.

[@stout_tossme7541]

Ted, exactly. Great comment. I watched this video and learned a thing or two. To the MPG comment. I am not an RVer. I am in the backcountry camping and exploring. Can't take an RV where I go. I worked as a mechanic for several years and am very mechanically inclined. When it comes to electricity, I have youtube and Tom to explain it to me. 🤷🏼‍♂️ I am not at all interested in electrical engineering. Lol

[@bitworkx6028]

@@MortonsontheMove Adding to the furnace post: I would imagine , the lithium will recover faster than the AGM. So as the nights go on using the furnace, at some point, a generator will be needed to get the AGM back near 100% where as the Lithium batteries might last much longer before they need a generator or not at all (assuming no cloudy days).

[@dynalix]

Awesome informative vid, Great Job! I've run 2 100Ah LiFePo4 Battle Borns in my 100% electric van build for the past two years. 120V 1400W water heater, 1000W Microwave, and 1400W induction cooktop all on a Victron 2000W inverter (one large load at a time). It's worked flawlessly with no degradation of capacity over these two years. We charge with 540W solar and a 60A charger via the alternator as backup. I may add another 100A battery to give us a bit more foul weather buffer, but its been the prefect setup for us as is.

[@MortonsontheMove]

2 to 3 lithiums are just about perfect for most uses! Glad to hear it's been working out.

[@caraudiotec]

Great test and data, and even better promotion for Battle Born. That said IMO and my years of experience with both AGM and Lithium batteries you have a bit of a bias with your testing towards Lithium batteries. No doubt that the data you acquired is accurate as well as your charts so I'm not disputing your numbers. The testing parameters are where I would object as per the differences in how Lithium vs Wet or AGM performs. The discharge test should have taken into consideration the voltage drop under load to get a more accurate output number. The at-rest voltage is the true battery voltage not the underload voltage. Testing it to the cutoff voltage gives the Lithium numbers a testing bias just because of the performance characteristics. That being said, if you have 1.3v drop under the specific load and your target voltage is 12.2 then you would set your cutoff to 11.9v so when the load is removed and the battery recovers you will be at the 12.2 target voltage. With lithium not having the under load sag like wet or AGM this makes it look unfairly superior (which it is in some respects as devices will work more efficiently at the higher voltages but that isn't what I'm disputing) . You allude to this during the video with the microwave test, but the testing data doesn't have that accounted for. And to add that, dropping the voltage below the recommended voltage is not going to damage a wet or AGM battery as long as they are not left in that type of low discharged stage, under load conditions is not an issue. Again, hats off for the whole procedure, and look forward to future videos.

[@razzix2]

Everyone always goes with the worst lead acid batts for these tests. I guess it makes sense for RV applications to keep weights realistic. I would love to see in depth tests done against trojan's specifically designed SIND 06 610 batts that have a pretty well proven track record/service life when maintained. I feel like any flooded cell rated for PSOC (like the SIND 06 610 batts) still gives lithium a run for its money in every way outside of weight and with proven service life well outside of these notions of '500 cycles' or '5yrs' that keep going around.

[@sspence65]

I see a possible flaw in your testing method. It appears that you were testing the end voltage under load. The 50% 12.2v is at rest, not under load. If you drew the batteries down to 12.2 under load, and then cut off, the voltage pops back up, and you did not hit your 50% level. Retest with a hydrometer (battery voltage is not an accurate method of determining the state of charge).

[@andymead3619]

Yes, and / or set compensation parameters for this in the inverter configuration.

[@tomhargreaves8820]

This was a lot of work. However, I didn't hear anything about how you measured the "end" voltages. I infer from what I heard that you tested to a voltage under load because you kept referring to a "cutoff voltage". As Steve pointed out, and a I have learned by studying and living with rv batteries for 16 years, to get even an approximation of the state of charge (SoC) of a lead-acid battery with voltage, you have to let the battery recover after a period of discharge. In fact, to see the voltage of a fully charged battery, you have to let it sit unloaded for a period of time or apply a moderate load for a short period to knock the voltage down to its rest level. Every study I've read on lead-acid batteries emphasizes that voltage level is not an accurate method to determine SoC, only testing the specific gravity of the electrolyte is accurate. That's difficult with sealed la batteries.

[@ThomasSuckow]

I also question whether the lead acids were deep cycle batteries which would be what would be in an RV and should have a greater than 50% DOD.

[@sspence65]

@@ThomasSuckow 50% is the recommended DOD for lead acid deep cycle. Some recommend deeper DOD to get more usable ah, but cycle life decreases. 20% is the recommended DOD for starting batteries.

[@PlanktoniusRex]

Yep that is 100% right. My AGM's sag to 24.1 under load by morning but VOC rises to 24.4 when measured disconnected and direct.

[@jump429]

Great information, I have been working in the auto repair business for over 30 have seen battery quality go down dramatically does not matter what brand, flavor or cost, tried them all, your are lucky to get half the life out of a new battery as one made before 2008. In the U.S. there are only couple auto battery manufacturers they blame everything on all the electronics in new cars. I point out my 99 car OE car battery lasted over seven years and my 97 truck OE battery lasted over 9 years yet a new battery same vehicles will not last 3 years they have nothing to say. When there is a Monopoly and yes all the manufacturers are working together they even make batteries for each other the cost can go up and the quality go down. So it's no surprise to me lead acid batteries tested so poorly.

[@dustyfeller]

Thanks for making this so easy to follow and relatable to real-life applications. If you can afford the initial price, the heated lithium batteries are by far the most capable and cost efficient over time for RV’s.

[@MortonsontheMove]

You're welcome!

[@traceywilliams2160]

Oh my, I was looking for the “translation” link to click on. I heard a little English throughout this language but I couldn’t grasp the language. If I knew the slightest of what you were talking about, I think I would have gotten a bit excited 😊 😊 I didn’t understand a word but I know you did an awesome job.

[@nfinitymarine4466]

Long story short. Use lead for bullets and fishing weights. Use lithium for home and RV.

[@a.w.thompson4001]

"Lifepo4" batteries provide a great combination of longevity (cheaper in the long run) and safety (e.g. fire danger.)

[@peacewarrior9500]

Nice work, but this felt like a SME corporate/commercial advertisement for Battle Born! I’d have loved to see the cost per power ($/Whr) of building your own LFP bank with EVE cells and BMS compared to commercially available ones like Battle Born. I’ve seen cost come down to as low as 0.1$/Whr. Battle Born is overpriced and overhyped, IMHO, at 0.67$/Whr. For those of us DIY types with some engineering background, it’s an insult to underhandedly suggest or highlight a brand-name on such limited data set. No one needs convincing that LFP is superior to AGM in almost every metric, but bringing down the cost-per-power by sourcing quality cells and components is where the rubber meets the road! Please do an episode on the best available power system components, ie, LFP cells, BMS, inverters, PVCs, charge controllers and monitors, etc. It would be of immensely more value to DIY enthusiasts than mindless brand-name consumers!

[@rvnut1133]

I kind of knew what the expected outcome was going to be but I must admit it was very interesting to see the data in detail. Great Job! Thank you.

[@DesertAdventuresinArizona]

Very comprehensive test and confirms my real world experience over the last 2 years I’ve owned my Battle Borne batteries. Thank you!

[@louprentz8554]

ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. I HAVE BEEN RUNNING TESTS ON BATTERIES A LONG TIME (YEARS) i agree with your findings. I get better results from the cheapest batteries than from the expensive marine deep cycle (ripoff)

[@stephencopestake2864]

I did an experiment recently with the discarded starter battery from my ML320 Wi63 - a Bosch Silver SO19 100Ah. I hadn't gotten around to getting rid of it and idly checked how flat it was and found that it had held a charge after a few months of being dumped under my kitchen table, so I connected a 12V 40W thermoelectric cooler to it and it kept working for a full 30 hours before stopping, and had kept 3 frozen freezer blocks frozen. So, even a 'dead' starter battery delivered exactly 100Ah. As it is 'dead' anyway, I figured it wouldn't do it much harm. It charged up again just as quickly as it would normally, so my next experiment is to try charging it from solar and using it camping while I save up for a LiPO4 battery, which will cost a fair percentage of what my car cost! 'If the resource is free, efficiency is not so important'!

[@Dave5843-d9m]

A 100AH lead acid will deliver all of that energy but it will not for so at high current levels. You will also lose a considerable chunk of battery life. LFP will happily give 95% of its energy at near full current so what’s not to like?

[@stephencopestake2864]

@@Dave5843-d9m It's only the cost of LiPO4 batteries plus all the stuff to go with it...

[@reginaldpotts2037]

quote 'Disclaimer: Battle Born Batteries paid for the tests we performed' Nuff said

[@Dr.PhDeez]

so a 40 minute video of all the testing is worth nothing just because a company paid for them to do it?

[@richardwagner8498]

Dunning Kruger effect ?

[@DaveMartin-co8et]

@@Dr.PhDeez Not at all. This 40 minute video is worth a lot to the people at BattleBorn. As for an actual user, one should be aware that there is a significant underlying bias here. For example the statement at 33:40 "lead-acid batteries are just not reliable to be used in a power application." This ignores the historical fact that lead-acid batteries have been used quite successfully in a variety of power applications for more than 100 years. I would not claim that lithium batteries are crap but it is foolhardy and ignorant to suggest that lead-acid batteries don't have any place in power applications. I use flooded lead-acid (not AGM's) in an RV that I use 20 or 30 nights per year. I recharge with a generator and with solar panels and a cheap PWM charge controller that has user selectable charge voltages and is temperature compensated. My setup has served me well for the past three years. While lithium batteries would probably deliver more watt-hours than I currently get, the BattleBorn batteries cost about 7 times what I paid. They would not be a good value for the way I use batteries in my RV.

[@ezew4144]

I agree I have been heavily in the solar and battery spaces and it baffles me that they are pushing lithium so heavy. None of these folks can attest to a lithium set of batteries lasting 10 years, or 2000 to 5000 cycles. While NiFe batteries are tried and true to thousands of cycles and can have electrolytes replaced. We're talking a lifetime of use. By all means NiFe are not reasonable for RVs but let's be real who is using a RV in the way they are saying how many days out of the year is a person using a RV . Its crazy that he mentions battleborn by name but not the others, and also didn't use another brand of lithium as well as the battleborn. I personally think OPZV batteries are second to NiFe whith 2000 to 3000 cycles for a stationary say solar setup. I get RVs have limited access and space but again. It goes back to buying a cheaper battery every couple of years to dropping 4 k for some lithium batteries that you use 3 times a year maybe. I think the hype is so that they can get alot of their stock out before solid state batteries hit the market. Those will truly bring the rugged and longevity seen in NiFe along with less weight and more power density. Let's be real if your discharging a lithium battery the same as we do our phones we all know that now after 1.5 years a phones battery is toast and thats maybe hitting 1000 cycles. Also the electronics needed to fully utilize lithium is issue prone not just in a charge controller (very specific) but the batteries themselves have electronics bms etc. Realistically I look at lithium as great for small electronics, evs, and certain other applications but they are not the best for every situation requiring battery storage.

[@jimthomas777]

Not only did Battle Born Batteries pay for these test , These guys get paid a commission for every battery sold , So the better the report , the more sales of batteries and more commissions are paid , So if I say they suck I don't get paid and if I say that they are great I get paid , Great or Suck ? That is a really difficult question to answer when you are broke and need money for food

[@erikrezlman7900]

I’m trying to find your blog with the battery data from your extensive testing. Where can I find that data. I’d like to review this information. Thanks so much for your help with distilling the myth’s about Lead Acid batteries!!

[@paulbianchi7877]

The next test should include the actual discharge and charge cycle comparisons. Also, the balancing that is not used on lead acid leave it at a disadvantage. Remove the BMS from the lithium is a more direct comparison. The VPC is in some applications, can be down to 1.67. Batteries are all not very efficient ever. Lead acid or lithium etc.

[@emilen2]

What makes you say Li-ion or LFP are not very efficient? BMS is not an unfair advantage for Li-ion. You can balance cells at any level of charge, and it's basically only a safety measure should the cells drift apart.

[@paulbianchi7877]

The conversion of energy ratio is not great, Even more so when the temp is over 80f and below 40f. The rate of efficiency decreases exponentially as the temp changes. The charge cycles and discharge cycles also decreases. Question> Why should batteries require heat or cooling.?

[@MrBrymstond]

If you have a permanent camp, bury the lead acid batteries 2 feet under the frostline and use conduit for the wires.

[@DragonsREpic]

Thats stupid. Thats like burying a car to prevent it get rusted but you cant add gas anymore

[@annanilssen2344]

I ended up buying a Bluetti 240 Solar generator. Runs all my appliances in my camper van. Has a built in inverter, sin wave. The big bonus of buying this , is I can bring into my house and use during a power outage….. For about $1600. It was an awesome investment.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Awesome!

[@cwsmith7366]

A very informative and great video this is. However, it backs up my decision to stay with cheap flooded deep cycle batteries. Now, if I lived in a RV, boat, or home full time, or at least for really extended periods and relied almost solely on solar charging, I would definitely go with lithium. For most of us RV owners however, that typically stay in one spot for a week or two or less, and especially for those of us that have an older RV with standard alternators, battery cable sizing, no DC to DC chargers or adjustable external voltage regulators needed for a lithium house bank substitution, and especially those of us that still use a generator, it just makes way more sense to stick with FLOODED lead acid batteries, assuming that they are stored outside of the living area. Sure, you have to check water levels from time to time, but how hard is that? I use 2 WallyWorld 105AH flooded deep cycle 12V's at $80 each, and they typically last me for around three years. Now I do use a 12.2V resting cut off voltage minimum whenever possible, and although my 2000W pure sine wave inverter does handle my little Mr. coffee, my 900W microwave, and my 1400W toaster oven without issues, depending on where I am and how much additional charging I want and how long I will be running these devices I will either put my standard 160A engine alternator to work, or crank up my perfectly running 2000 hour expected lifetime (I'm not kidding here, just maintain them properly and they WILL give you that) 2.8KW Onan genny to work using around 1/3 gallon/hour, which with my Progressive Dynamic converter/charger gut's replacement still providing a fair amount of battery charging while running. And speaking of that, it allows me to safely keep the RV plugged into shorepower indefinitely without damaging the batteries, and even automatically provides occasional equalization charging cycles, which definitely has a lot to do with my getting three or so years out of my el cheapo batteries. And finally, this old time tried and true system gives me, a guy that likes to camp in hot summer temperatures, the luxury to run my A/C for 10 hours at night if I want, which at let's say @ $2.25/gallon gas would cost me about $7.50/night. If I did that for 10 nights a year, that's an additional $75/year cost of ownership. Do you have any idea what it costs to buy a new RV or retrofit an older one with enough lithium, a second giant alternator, the often very troublesome computer equipment to be able to run A/C, a compressor fridge, and rely on electric cooking? Yikes! I know that for some of the new class B's out there it's a TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR OPTION, and still relies on idling your engine for extended periods of time, which it is not designed to do. Now I also use evil propane for cooking, heating, and have an absorption 3 way fridge and will continue to do so. After airflow mods, the fridge still cools to 40 degrees and freezer to less than 0 at 95 degrees ambient, so no worries there, and although I do have to level the RV while it's in use of course, but a month's worth of propane even when in below freezing nights (propane heaters use a LOT of propane) costs me about $25/month or less than a dollar a day. I do have 200W solar but really don't need it. Just sayin' folks, old school for me is still the best by far.

[@blackdog850]

Nice point! I've been thinking the exact same thing and justifications. For this guy as well, I will have/use a small solar inverter system w/6v golf cart batteries and top off with my generator as required and it will probably suffice. Thanks for posting. :)

[@galapagosbusinesses.8859]

LITHIUMS are Awesome but are EXPLOSIVES !!!!!!!!! BOMBS !!!!!!!! NOT WORTH IT. STAY AWAY FROM THIS LITHIUM AGENDA2030 SHIT. STAY with good old batteries. Remember this.

[@robswenson9598]

@Kenny Hendrick how cheap, and in what state?

[@rickhinojosa5455]

Cw smith Hi. I have a close relative who bought a big RV type bus. He doesn't really know anything about them but managed to drive it home A few hundred miles through the mountains. When I say a bus, I would say it's the biggest type that is made that is not custom built or something. I know he hasn't been starting it for at least two months. He told me the battery is dead now. I want to help him keep that thing going right and I would like to communicate with you if you would be willing. If you could be a little resource for me to ask general question, it would help me a lot. You seem to be knowledgeable and honest, and that's what I'm wishing I had: a knowledgeable and honest person to ask a few questions here and there. I'd you want to help me, my email is [e-mail] and you can just send me a message of hello and then I'll message you back. Thank you. 🙏

[@gobdeep]

Good post!

[@Killianwsh]

All of the cost savings for the Lithium batteries are entirely dependent on them actually reaching their "estimated number of cycles". Interesting video nevertheless. If you get an opportunity to test the new lithium titanate batteries in a similar fashion, it will be interesting to see how they stack up.

[@MrSteewped]

They stack up as very expensive. But LifePo4 seems to be the best bang for the buck.

[@falcorthewonderdog2758]

There is no cost value with lithium batteries when they burn your RV to the gound.

[@kieranh2005]

​@@falcorthewonderdog2758 the LiFePO4 is meant to be much safer in that regard. Although compared to Li-ion they don't have the energy density.

[@matthewwiemken7293]

@@falcorthewonderdog2758 Bad install.

[@SnookerML]

Watch starting at the 10:36 mark. He is not looking at lifetime cycles. This one data point was at 20A discharge per battery and measured the WattHours. The calculated $ / WattHours. That is the way I see it. The question is performance every time you use them, not over the lifetime of the battery. Doesn't mean it is worth it to you to buy it, but I think he made the point.

[@lisinsignage]

Awesome. Leaving in the tropics in a place with frequent, short, power blackouts, so planning to install solar PV and batteries both for backup + save on electricity bill. Your study helped me clear my thoughts. So cheapest flooded if ok to give up on high load and low budget ELSE better to directly go LiPeFo if budget 😀

[@JeremyHolovacs]

Well done. I switched to LiFePO4 in my sailboat, and have been stunned by the difference. I'll just throw out there, one thing nobody seems to mention that I think should be is the acid and hydrogen discharge of lead-acid batteries (at least the flooded kind) that is actually dangerous and the maintenance they require. Lithium is just better in almost every practical way.

[@chexlemeneux8790]

They are Extremely disappointing in the winter.

[@anonanonymous1988]

@@chexlemeneux8790 you can get a heating pad so they'll charge in the winter. The main issue with lead acid is they'll last 5 years compared to 20+ you get with Lithium

[@esecallum]

No..lithium battery explode and fire and cannot be put out

[@JeremyHolovacs]

@@esecallum not LiFePO4 chemistry.

[@JHA6100]

Tom, amazing as always. Love the detail and this confirms that our purchase of the 4 Battle Born batteries. The title of this video gave me pause as we just installed these last week so I had to watch this. MOTM is the best. 🤗

[@fishing4happiness610]

Lol... Same, I was like you guys are the ones that convinced me to buy BB batteries 2 years ago. Good to know it was $4k well spent.

[@Sotzrem2007]

I learned A lot thank you. I work In Entertainment as an Electrician a common use case for 12v-24v batteries is Set Pieces that have a practical effect (Such as DMX Controlled Lighting or Mechanical) in them that can't be wired to 120v power due to the fact they need to operate on stage and be stored off stage during scene changes. Typically we use Ni-H batteries due to cost and that we are never running them down, and often are charged each night after the show. However, when Touring shows that are storing electronics at Canadian Winter Temperatures they often don't get enough time inside the theatre to warm up to normal operating temperature. Your video was very insightful about using Lithium batteries.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thanks for watching! :)

[@completelyboringstuff204]

Thanks for these comprehensive Infos! I did experience similar outcome even with starter batteries on my motorcycle, where weight is a critical factor on top of all. A84 Wh LI battery provides 10 times more starting procedures than the stock AGM 168 Wh one, weighs about 1/4th or less and serves now for the 5th year, while AGM never even made a second season.

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

I agree on agm motorcycle battery. Like my lithium tool batteries it only makes it a year. I have kick starter and super capacitor now for my enduro. It should last 20 years.

[@able880]

​@Tron-Jockeythats a good point you make about temperature - when tempeture is not a problem lithium is a good choice - also in boats, campers and aircraft weight.matters so often lithium is a better choice

[@TignerAdventures]

This was very informative. I would like to see a test of Battle Born stacked up to other Lithium batteries. Seems their price keeps increasing while new offerings now are as low as $500 for the same thing and appear to be just as good. So paying $500 more for a name and batteries that don't have bluetooth seems a bit to ask of the community. Thanks for all the work you put into this.

[@CATA20034]

He is sponsored by battleborn. Not a correct test by anu means.

[@SOLDOZER]

He's sponsored by Battleborn, and this is an ad.

[@thithamduong2223]

After reading many reviews and watching a lot of videos, I chose this option for my first backup power station. kzbin.infoUgkxHypYDKHAN93Lp2RQpfvU_ksc70wJ00pt I was between this and a larger option that could power a wider range of items, but the price/size/capacity blend seemed right for this unit. Hasn't gotten a ton of use yet, but the build quality is solid and it charges fine via the Rockpals solar panel I purchased to pair with it. One thing to note is that the screen is optimized for a top down viewing angle, which makes sense, but this means it washes out at other angles - especially low angles. Not a huge deal, but perhaps a better option for the display could be used to provide wider viewing angles.

[@brianc2341]

I'm a little surprised you didn't do any kind of test in the high temps. Which battery would work better in temps in 100 degrees or more??

[@krisbrixon]

He was invited to battleborn due to their cold weather batteries.

[@robswenson9598]

I agree, do things make a difference in a tropical temperature profile?

[@flyboy5736]

I agree. Here in Australia cold temperatures are not really the issue for most RV'ers, cold is 10C.

[@flyboy5736]

@@baddog9320 Which can be cheaper in the long run, you say lead acid and lithium are??? Depends on how long the “long run” is! I’m retired and if the long run means I have to own it for 10 or more years for lithium to be cheaper then I’m not sure I’ll be RV’ing then or even still be around! Horses for courses….

[@flyboy5736]

@@baddog9320 Not too sure what all that was about. My point was you said lithium are cheaper then lead was, kind of confusing and the long reply above doesn’t answer it either?? Anyhoo, I think I’ll spend $250 rather than $1,100.

[@kevinchastain727]

Being a young person you have not had any experience with Ni Fe batteries you should look at these for stationary power banks. these batteries where used in diesel electric submarines, backup power in power plants,radio stations and traffic signals. the Edison battery company was bought by Exide battery and was phased out by 1965 the main reason was the Ni Fe batteries lasted to long and the company could make more money by selling lead acid that only lasted 3-4 years. It is hard to find these batteries you can still find them and will need to change the electrolyte and run them through 2-3 charge cycles even these older batteries will out perform both lead acid and Li ion.

[@exhauster2728]

IF i'm not mistaken, you left out one very important aspect in these tests. I would like to see the actual performance ratios of these batteries. Wh in / Wh out. For all battery types, brands and temperatures you studied.

[@kellypbr7742]

I've been living off the grid for over 30yrs, I use lead acid golf cart batteries and can get 5yrs of use out of them. They work, and cost less than these newer ones.

[@davidchad77]

You can get at least 10 years of those lead acid batteries if you overcharge them once ever 6 weeks like explained in Solar Secrets on emediapress by Peter Lindemann

[@Ghredle]

Agree with your real life experience

[@danythrinbell1596]

forklift batteries are lead acid , and last 5 years

[@normbograham]

RV electrical was a bit quirky. The core issue, was that the prior owner bought a cord off amazon, that was not UL listed. When the battery failed, and we were plugged in, I pulled the panel, checked AC power to ground, then checked to neutral. One was zero. Hum. Clearly, Isolated ground, and bad cord. Because the AC cord was bad, the inverter, and the battery recharging, was not working. I threw away the cord, and hard wired the RV to the box, to get the full 30 amp power, with a 30 amp breaker at the pole. (I own 4 RV lots, and one RV).

[@andrewrivera4029]

Plus the Lithium iron phosphate batteries are 1/3 the weight of lead acid, important for RV’s.

[@dansmith6990]

at 2/3rd's the weight, with 300lbs of lead acid batteries, you'd be saving 100lbs... that's nothing in an RV... don't be daft.

[@overbuiltautomotive1299]

@@dansmith6990 so true so true

[@Milesco]

​@@dansmith6990 : Not quite as "daft" as you think -- the difference can add up. First, Lithium-ion batteries are actually about _half_ the weight of lead-acid batteries. Second, the larger your battery bank, the bigger the weight savings. If you have, say, six 60-pound lead acid batteries, that's 360 lbs. If you replace them with six 30-lb. Li-ion batts (180 lbs total), that's a 180 pound weight savings. Not huge, but not inconsequential, either, especially in a smaller RV. Furthermore, for a more apples-to-apples comparison, you have to take into account the fact that you can only discharge a lead-acid battery to 50%, while you can take a Li-ion battery all the way down to zero. So you really only need one lithium-ion battery for every two lead acid batteries. So then you can have just three Li-ion batteries to replace your six lead-acid batteries for an additional 90-lb weight saving, for a total weight saving of 270 lbs. That's significant.

[@whatyoumakeofit6635]

Temperature control is also a very important thing to consider for rv batteries.

[@overbuiltautomotive1299]

@@whatyoumakeofit6635 yep cold batteries lead acid ant the best. their need to cheaper materials used lithium is way to pricey for what it does really

[@blainecameron6115]

I can’t believe I watched this entire video on only one cup of coffee. Based on this research I calculated that the energy of one cup of coffee gave me what I needed to function for almost 37 minutes. However, to keep that cycle going I had to have a bathroom break if I were to finish the video at any type of cognitive level. All kidding aside this was a very insightful video and will help me when purchasing batteries for that future RV.

[@geraldomejia7226]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@janefletcher5571]

Great content but why restrict your supply of air and recirculate waste gases 😢

[@thatchillaxdude]

That was my favorite "LiFePO4 vs anything" comparo video! We have a 300Ah Battleborn battery bank for our Sprinter and couldn't be happier. We leave our low-draw Webasto diesel heater running to keep both us and our batteries toasty in the winter.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Thank you!

[@robertfloyd4287]

When did he say they were LiFePO4? I missed that

[@thatchillaxdude]

@@robertfloyd4287 that's what Battleborn batteries are...

[@bjugler]

Robert Floyd he didn't. It's very relevant, but it was not specified.

[@FBPrepping]

This sort of study is just what we engineers need to provide informed advice to fellow preppers. Thanks buddy. Let's see what solid state batteries bring along.

[@randallsemrau7845]

They didn't actually test for cycle life. They rested on manufacturer's and 'industry' claims.

[@seekerstan]

As a full time RVer in a small RV with 2 100 amp hr lead acid batteries and a single 140 amp solar panel. On any day that I use my 100 amp laptop for an extended time would pull my batteries down to 12 v every evening and the full recharge them early in the next day. So definitely not within the parameters that lead acid companies recommend. At the moment my batteries are toast but I am mostly on grid,. new LFP will go in before next off grid adventure. plus new low amp tablet to back up high amp laptop.

[@geofflewis8860]

Tom, Thanks for your time and effort to educate us to an in-depth level. We enjoy your channel and look forward to switching to Lithium

[@alabastardmasterson]

I've never said this before but you need more commercials or sponsors on this video. So much work. We appreciate it

[@Robnord1]

Manufacturers and sellers of these newer battery technologies need to work on lowering retail prices. The differential between these and lead-acid is ridiculous now. I can get 4 T-105s for the inverter bank I'm building for $650-700 vs $4000 for new tech. I can't afford them, and neither can 98% of my RV repair business customers.

[@lindapaulhelmstetter8704]

This is the most compelling and complete review I’ve seen to date. I was wondering if you have you looked into lead crystal (SIO2) batteries vs. Lithium?

[@johnfitbyfaithnet]

Also curious

[@cbflazaro]

This is a battle born advert, doesnt even mention that if you DIY the same cells, they cost 1/5th. Thats the reason why Will Prowse has 6 times as many subs as this guy. he isnt a sellout

[@Cameron-ur2tk]

lol, will prowse has battle born batteries listed on his website..... Heres what he says. "Good battery, but pretty expensive. If you want something that works great for years (or decades), buy this battery. I have not heard of a dissatisfied battle born battery buyer. It just works. I would go with the SOK/Ampere time battery above unless I needed a sealed battery, for marine application. The battleborn has the best case and terminals around, and can handle high moisture environments. It is also ideal for high vibration systems, such as RV's and vans."

[@cbflazaro]

@@Cameron-ur2tk he doesnt say its "THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE" like him at 0:14

[@MrOrangeonion]

Kudos to the guys at the beggining, and gjob to you for using it on youtube! Great content

[@tyroneshulace3203]

I would have liked to see more Deep Cycle or Marine (which are a combined starter/deep cycle battery) lead acid batteries used in comparison than regular starting batteries. That is what the experiment test parameters were directed to......

[@tomstdenis]

AGM1 is clearly FullRiver DC115-12 batteries. Which are deep cycle. The problem is he discharged them at the wrong rate. The manufacturer tested their claims at 5.8A not 8A.

[@karlsjostedt8415]

@@tomstdenis Testing close to the use case makes sense for this test since the idea is: which battery is best for this particular use.

[@marcuswetterlund2445]

@@karlsjostedt8415 I agree that's what the "test" in the video was but he States multiple times that the batteries didn't meet manufacturers specifications for capacity which is a test that needs to be done at the rate the manufacturer discharged at.

[@ericwickfield1074]

Well done, Tom! Very informative and useful -- thank you. About the only item you didn't mention in any detail is the weight savings. Switching to lithium batteries provides a significant weight savings that goes directly to increasing useful load. Perhaps not a big issue in a Class A, but a very big issue is some Class C and smaller RVs.

[@flyboy5736]

Good point. He was analysing them as an electrical engineer not as an RV'er!

[@bobblack3870]

@@flyboy5736 Yea, but ... the title says "RV", and he did make several references to RV.

[@James-kt5fu]

Being an electrical engineer myself I would like to say this guy impressed me with his ability to keep an eye on the REAL world issues. Well done my friend.

[@devinparry1152]

Love the video. It could use a clarification though. You kept referrencing "lithium ION" batteries but the batteries you were testing were lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). Extremely different batteries. Thanks again for the video!

[@wrybread]

Came here to say the same thing. That's a hell of a gaffe!

[@grantsnell6782]

A comprehensive test, thanks. I do have doubts about your scientific integrity when you freely name the manufacturer of one type of battery and not the others.

[@yutubl]

Thanks for this eye-opening real parts experiment results comparing with manufactorers data. My take away for shorttime high current and longterm chargecycleconts: combine lead acid with Li-battery to a combined system, which decides reacting on the active load to use a) lead acid: best shorttime high current peaks, but recharge not early, after peak time switching over to: b) Li-battery for moderate currents over long duration.

[@MattTucker]

Wow this is incredibly interesting. I had the thought that Lithium Batteries may be significantly more cost effective than they seem when all things are considered but had no idea that it would such a big difference. The only issue I have is that their warranties need to reflect the expected higher life cycle rates. I bought an electric skateboard 18 months ago and the lithium battery has already broken after less than 100 cyles. This is a major brand battery and it is out of warranty so they expect me to pay another AU$450 for a new one (of which they are out of stock!). This is unacceptable to me. I have pulled the battery apart and will replace the dead cells but I shouldn't have to do that. It's still going to cost $75 for the batteries and a few hundred for a spot welder and I still don't know if I will need to replace the bms. This is not a complaint about anything in this video just something to consider when purchasing expensive products, if they don't backup their lifecycle claims you can be left with an expensive anchor!

[@Aerogrow]

I always look at; 1. lead acid and AGM are great for buffering/caching power. 2. lifepo4 is a great source of power For off gridding RV; i still use AGM 200AH under a converter for DC system; but goal is to keep that AGM at 80-90% charged. LIFEpo4 is the source of power for camper (plug replacement) Arguable some efferencey loss when going from DC->AC->DC (which bothers me a bit); but DC doesn't like to travel distances.

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

Just like my lithium tool batteries 12-15 months and they are dead.

[@castlemason3961]

@@eliinthewolverinestate6729 I have two ridgid 3ah batteries from 2013 that still chooch. I use them mainly on an impact driver and 6.5" saw. Masonry is my line of work. Saw has been rebuilt once and impact driver is starting to get loose in the bit collar, but batteries are still holding strong.

[@MattTucker]

@A. Melbs yeah old starter batteries seem to be very reliable, I had old cars for years and rarely had to replace them either. The Brand of skateboard is a Backfire with Samsung cells, I’m not sure whether the issue was a cell fault or an assembly fault but I ended up having to buy a whole new battery because the cells I replaced didn’t fix the problem. My guess is the BMS needed replacing but couldn’t find one that I was sure would do the job. Hopefully the new battery last a bit longer anyway!

[@suny1265]

Lithium is not in amy way shape or form Cost effective . People don't know how to interpret the data he is presenting and not even him.

[@ausgator]

Great video, thanks! I would like to see data showing efficiency and economics from the charging perspective. I understand that lead-acid can't be charged at as high of rate as LI and that the charge rate for lead-acid dramatically decreases as it is is reaching ~80%. As a sailor, I'm particularly interested in this aspect of LI over lead-acid since that means shorter run time on my diesel engine/genset and less fuel to recharge. Or making the optimum use of solar. When you're a 100+ miles offshore, you can't just pop into a fuel dock whenever you want.

[@karlsjostedt8415]

Li ion batteries also charge slower the closer they get to fully charged. This is a function of physics as there are fewer and fewer locations for the ions to fit into as the battery fills up and so those ions have to bounce around, do a lot more traveling, before finding an empty spot to fit into. This creates more heat since the ions are moving more. The way to keep charging fast is to increase the flow, but that also raises the heat. Heat will shorten the lifetime of the battery or start a fire if the heat gets too high... Some EVs will pretend that 90% (-ish) is a fully charged car and can therefore use a faster charging curve towards the top... Different chemistries and different battery forms have effects on heat and therefor charging curve...

[@TauCu]

@@karlsjostedt8415 not nearly to the extent of lead acid lol. #leadIsDead

[@douglaslin5469]

Hi Ausgator, i am an Australian sailor too working on my battery replacement. I made a spreadsheet comparing Lithium v AGM (included carbon lead acid AGMs). Ignoring solar, the first thing my spreadsheet did was show the first usage in hours using a constant 8 amps. 8 amps is how much power my boat uses with its auto pilot operating. Then how long it would take to re-charge. But I realised that full charge would not be too long for AGM. So I presumed that the AGM could achieve 90% charge at its rate of resistance, which varies between AGM batteries. My batteries are in parallel, and the resistance stays the same for each battery. So if the AGM bank has four batteries in parallel, and that batteries can accept 20 amps each, that means the bank of AGM batteries could take 80 amps charge. While the lithium can typically take 80 amps charge, it is not recommended. Typically 50 amps can be taken per battery. But this invites heat issues. Which are an unknown for me. But if two lithiums can take 50 amps each, that would be 100 amp charge acceptance. Via DC-DC chargers. I presumed the Lithium could get to 100%. The Lithiums provided a shorter engine run due to their ability to fast charge, but the difference was not very large due to the bottleneck falling back to the capability of the engines alternator. If I was cruising a lot, I think a hydro generator makes more sense than a large battery bank. But they cost double or three times the cost of 4 AGMs or two or three lithiums. Solar also is necessary to aid the power drain. The key seems to be the gen set - if it could feed a DC-DC charger for each lithium battery, and the batteries could take 50 amps each - lithium wins easily. But if the gen set has limitations, AGM and particularly Carbon lead AGM becomes cheaper. And no need for DC-DC chargers. The other downside of AGM though is weight and bulk. In my boat space for batteries (in one lazorette) takes up valuable space. Lithium kills lead acid in that regard, and installation of lighter batteries is so much more appealing with a something under 17 kg than 32 to 45 kg.

[@calvingarrett3245]

This guy just trying to sell batteries for a company you all know most adds are falsely advertised

[@shop-k3p]

MY GOD THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD INFO HERE!!!! AS A HD MECHANIC THIS IS THE VERY BEST DATA PROOVEN LAB TEST I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!

[@rynoopperman5010]

The way I understand it is - 11,8v is not a in-use reading it is an at-rest reading. My inverter is set to 11,5v cut-off as that brings it back to 12,25v after 2 hours rest - equaling it to 50% used ;-)

[@DJ0Light]

Exactly. I ended the video when i saw that he didn't consider this. He didn't do the experiment right. 12.2v is at rest, not while using the battery. Just another ad for BB.

[@HomeARoam]

Nicely done, very thorough! We are in BC, Canada and have 2x 100a LiFEPO4 batteries on order for a major power upgrade. Even before watching this, lithium seemed a much better choice than any other chemistry, especially when it's cold. We've run out of juice on a few occasions already with our single 12v lead acid. And the worst thing, like you've shown, is that the voltage will drop much earlier than expected -- enough that it doesn't even have enough current to light the furnace. I know Battle Born is an awesome company, but having purchased another brand of LiFEPO4, I would be curious to see some comparisons between other brands, as the market seems to be getting more competitive.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Glad you enjoyed it. I am thinking that if I run more tests like this it will be lithium to lithium. Performance on the cells should be comparable, it's really the BMS and electronics that will be different.

[@yves8639]

Go to Will Prowse website & youtube channel. He has done alot of experiments with different lithium batteries.

[@HomeARoam]

@@MortonsontheMove Thanks, that seems to be what I've read and heard so far as well. The BMS and overall build quality is hugely important and I know BB has basically lead the way in that respect.

[@HomeARoam]

Thanks @@yves8639 I've watched a number of his videos and he's great!

[@Sparkeycarp]

Can't wait for my two 100 amp hour AGMs to wear out so I can replace my system. Its been 2 years. My solar panel has kept up my batteries. Might trade in my RV by the time they wear out. Next time we will start with the Battle Born system. I can't tell you how many times we had problems. Thanks for explaining exactly the real life problems we had with pour AGMs.

[@trusted_traveler]

Love this! I'm in process of doing research on building our own battery bank for solar for our self built skoolie. Cannot make up my mind for battery choices.

[@MortonsontheMove]

Awesome! We've also written several articles about solar systems on our blog, which may be helpful to you as well. You can find all of those articles here: mortonsonthemove.com/category/rvsolar/

[@fk2106]

You, as an electrical engineer, should also do a comparison of lithium iron phosphate batteries vs super / ultra capacitors. Will you do it?

[@johnpianezze6519]

Probably not, because no ultracap exists that could be a drop-in replacement for a 12v battery. And even if it did exist, it would weigh 5x to 10x as much as a battery for the same capacity. So there would be no practical reason to do such a test.

[@fk2106]

@@johnpianezze6519 You need to do more research. Graphene based supercapacitors are lighter than lead-acid batteries, and can handle 100,000 to 1,000,000 charge/discharge cycles without degradation. Face it my friend, batteries will soon be obsolete, just a matter of time.....

[@mensaswede4028]

@@fk2106 Yeah but it’s like waiting for Godot, every year it’s “just around corner”.... trouble is, it’s too damn expensive to make. Sure eventually this will be overcome, but forgive the skepticism that it’s happening “soon”

[@fk2106]

@@mensaswede4028 I suggest you watch the youtube videos of PhD chemist: Robert Murray Smith. Graphene can be mass produced quite cheaply. Dr. Smith made his own 10,000 Farad super capacitor with a 12 volt capability. It was the the size and weight of a 8.5" x 11.0" ream of paper (500 sheets) printed with graphene ink. Much cheaper and much more enviromentally friendly than lead acid batteries or lithium iron phosphate batteries. Charge / discharge cycles of up to 1,000,000 with no degradition. Super fast to charge due to low internal resistance. Info is open source....

[@mensaswede4028]

@@fk2106 Where are the commercial products I can buy if it’s so wonderful and cheap?

[@magician2020]

Every situation is different. LiFePo batteries have two advantages, weight and useable power density. In my case, a 38' Class A RV, neither are a critical limiting factor. When I purchased my 1990 RV in 2020 it came with two Group 8D FLA batteries. In AZ the batteries lasted three years and the heat just cooked them. That and I was not as attentive as I should have been to electrolyte level. I just replaced them with two Group 8D AGMs and three Group 31 AGMs. I also have room for six more Group 31 AGMs that I plan on adding before heading out this summer. This should give me a total of 1,400 AH capacity after the upgrade. The first thing I noticed when going from FLA to AGM is that the FLA batteries are lighter (120 lb vs 165 lb) and the storage capacity (200 AH vs 245 AH). The weight didn't have any noticeable effect on the handling of the RV, however, I did need some assistance replacing them. Before the change, the batteries would be fully charged from the 390W solar panel and floated at about 12.8 at sunset, and by the morning the voltage was down to 11.0, since the replacement the battery voltage in the morning was sitting at 12.5 after a typical night. For my application it just doesn't make financial sense to switch to LiFePo.

[@JM-yx1lm]

Where is Mr Will Prowse, you know that dude is here somewhere!! He loves this kind of testing!!

[@karlsbergkarl2230]

At least he has not been bought or paid for by anyone. I like him, he is good.

[@Schmitz3]

@@t00ls742 Like these guys aren't bought and sold by Battleborne. Haha

[@andyarmstrong3092]

I got here from HIS youtube channel

[@ArnaudMEURET]

Awesome job. One important detail for viewers: in the future, could you please, at least in the on-screen material, add Celsius values? Because that’s what the world uses.

[@GiSoldier559]

I’m part of the world. I don’t use Celsius But yes, both are helpful for someone like me who can’t do the math

[@UltraGamma25]

What is a Celcius?

[@ArnaudMEURET]

@@GiSoldier559 You’re part of the statistically irrelevant part of a bipartitionned world. I don’t hate you, I just like simplicity more: 0° = fusion, 100° = boiling, 1°C = 1°K. What are the objectively interesting features of the Fahrenheit scale?

[@ArnaudMEURET]

@Acg blah Sadly marketing rules. But for once it’ll have the positive effect of ridding us of the last bastion of senseless medieval units eventually.

[@Johnny-dp5mu]

@@ArnaudMEURET eventually is a very very very long time

[@blendervill]

How about doing a Video on Inverters and Evaluate different brands??

[@marklewus5468]

One thing you did not mention was that AGM batteries do have one advantage over flooded batteries. They self discharge at a much lower rate. A good AGM battery self discharges at 3% per month, flooded is more like 15%. This is an issue for backup applications where you are not using the batteries every day. Of course the self discharge of lithium batteries is damn near zero, so there’s that…

[@whateverbr0599]

🎉