DON’T Water Cool Your PC! - IceGiant Copper Prototype

[@iwolfman37]

I am once again throwing out there the idea for Linus Tech Tips to revisit the idea of a power efficient PC ! While it's cool to just throw more power at a rig and see what the top end of performance you can get is, the honest reality is that a vast majority of people do not need it and it only serves as one big energy waste, and turn your PC into one very expensive space heater. I would love to see a PC build where you test what great performance you can get while maintaining a moderate to low wattage, especially one that could even somewhat rival a laptop. Possibly by undervolting/ underclocking the CPU or GPU. I know you guys have done it in the past, and I would love to see it again !

[@ArturoTabera]

Spoiler Alert: Target Audience...

[@NavinF]

Power efficiency only matters for data center hardware that runs at >80% util all day so the power costs are much greater than hardware costs. Consumers (rightfully) have no practical reason to care about efficiency.

[@BrandNameBullets]

@@NavinF They literally did a video this month about putting your computer in a ̶w̶e̶e̶d̶ plant tent to route the heat out of your office. People may not care about the electricity bill, but not dumping hundreds of watts of heat into your space is a huge win.

[@NavinF]

@@BrandNameBullets Absolutely! That’s why I have a car radiator outside my home plumbed in to my PC and antifreeze flowing through them. If you have reasonably high end hardware (3090 and 5800x3d in my case) you gotta take care of the thermal design. I understand that a lot of people aren’t willing to, but most of them don’t buy power hungry hardware anyway.

[@SinisterSlay1]

@@BrandNameBullets except his plan didn't work because it created a vacuum, that just sucks hot air in front outside again. Same problem as those single hose portable air conditioners

[@Mumantaii]

Cool to see a followup on IceGiant. Was really hyped about this technology when I saw your first video on them and I'm glad they're improving their stuff.

[@bismuth7730]

Their technology is just heatpipe but bigger. Heatpipes are amazing technology.

[@fragilisticfalconier8644]

Heh. Cool. I get it

[@ramair325]

this tech is nothing new and has been in use on gpus for years and guess what they still suck compaired to water, LTT just happen to use the industies worst water blocks made by "EK" to make his friends product look good. its called marketing cuz why not if it makes LTT money they will do it! (or at least this video would present in this manor)

[@1Lo1L]

same, i didn't expect something else so soon but it's nice to see the progression

[@user_Z-]

Cool… Ice… haha… hehe…

[@SpiceCh]

I definitely think manufacturers should target lower TDPs instead of going sky-high in power consumption and heat output. It's incredibly wasteful in this day and age.

[@twandepan]

And also unneccesaary as games look pretty much photoreal already in some cases, while animations can already be rendered photoreal full stop. The only thing you will be appealing to with even more powerfull CPUs are probably server owners for which there are dedicated CPUs available anyway.

[@emmanuelh2304]

I'm really not looking forward to upgrading, getting my 5900x to idle sub 35c with no noise has been a pain and I still get occasional crashes due to the undervolt/pbo

[@e21big]

They can either lock the core at lower performance and lower TDP - or leave it as an option for people. Honestly, I think that appraoch is pretty much the correct one. If you don't want to waste power - and money, just don't buy the i9-12900KS. The much more efficient 12700K and the ordinary 12900K do exist and they will cost you less. And if you don't care about your money or just want it for pure gaming, it's not like 12900KS will be sucking that kind of power during the gaming workload anyway. Leaving the option open is correct imo, and so long as they brought about a reasonable performance jump to the rest of their line up, I am all fine with that.

[@minglee4207]

Intel on 14nm and having chips draw 150 watts on normal workloads💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@Maxaker]

No

[@lategamingwithiainjarvis]

LTT: “Don’t water cool your PC” Also Linus: *Building a pool to also be used to cool his home’s server racks, in conjunction with Solar Panels*

[@burrfoottopknot]

also $350 for a cooler is twice the price of most gamers CPU's

[@jaredjones6570]

@@burrfoottopknot Do you mean half the cost?

[@burrfoottopknot]

@@jaredjones6570 Most gamers spend $700 USD on a CPU? ok..

[@theskywalker8416]

@@jaredjones6570 for normal gamers, 6 core cpu is more than enough for 2k (lots still on fhd) and those cpus usually cost like 150-200$

[@amorgan20111]

@@theskywalker8416 this cooler isn't for the people using 10600K/12600K/5600s ect. This is designed for TR, and 12th gen intel seems to also be a good candidate for this cooler. The cooler is more efficient with higher heat loads, as it can only cycle its coolant as it changes phases.

[@bryanbaskin7880]

At some point, Intel/AMD are going to run out of surface area on the socket and case for cooling and fundamentally more efficient architectures are going to enable more powerful computers that are cheaper and more reliable. It’s like the P4 era all over again. This video neatly dovetails with Anthony’s video on the end of PC modularity at a minimum and perhaps x86 as we know it. The time is coming for a significant architecture clean up.

[@CyberbrainPC]

We can just move the socket to the back of the board and make it massive

[@desu7]

@@CyberbrainPC Yeah! Cooler sized like your whole PC on back side, sounds nice

[@-felt]

Lets just all move to arm. Its been made clear that they can be just as powerful at lower tdp and heat output.

[@glueplay]

Where's this video from Anthony about x86?

[@darkpixel1128]

@@glueplay He might be talking about his SOC video. the one about System-on-a-chip designs (like the Apple M1 and M2) taking over from traditional PC designs.

[@Fat_Paws]

At this rate, pretty soon we will need to buy coolants every month for our external radiators. 100+ degree CPU temps is just plain insane. That is literally past the boiling point. You can now officially make coffee/tea with your CPU now.

[@TheMightyZwom]

I'm pretty sure those 100°C are silicon temperature, not water temperature...

[@jakehead20]

@@TheMightyZwom Yup. Water temps stay relatively cold compared to CPU temps.

[@andrewd3899]

Lol CPUs have been hitting 100+ degrees for years now, it's nothing new

[@davidallada5501]

Yeah, even drawing 325 watts on my 12900KS at 5.5 GHz all core, my water temp only gets to 28c max, which is well under any sort of limit. Im running an external 1260mm squared rad. Whats more, for Alder lake, once you hit 270 watts, the thermal limit is actually the IHS -> Cold plate, and not rad cooling

[@RaynmanPlays]

"Yeah, I'm mining crypto now. It's a great way to get my morning coffee."

[@votezoidberg2020]

Can we even say that this is the best gaming CPU anymore? When Top Gear would take a car around the test track to see how fast it was they would disqualify vehicles that could not drive on the road. If they didn’t have mirrors, muffler, able to go over speed bumps it would be removed from the scoreboard completely. Maybe it is time to do this with CPUs as well.

[@Jeroensgambling]

5800X3D says hi.

[@MrScorpianwarrior]

Awww. My CPU doesn't have mirrors or a muffler, and it wouldn't survive a speedbump alone.

[@tbuk8350]

Yeah. If a CPU can't run cool at advertised speeds without heavy, warranty-breaking modification to the CPU, then it shouldn't be considered the fastest, even if it does technically run fast.

[@DwAboutItManFr]

No.

[@berrymckockiner5883]

@@MrScorpianwarrior whooosh

[@SergeyPupkoMusic]

At the rate Intel and Nvidia are going, "We're gonna.need.a bigger breaker"

[@PNWAffliction]

that was my first thought. it'll be to the point where your washer/dryer will be on a circuit, the EV, and then, the computer, then one for AC... lol. 4 circuits eaten up just like that, ooooooooof. need a whole 2nd breaker just for the computer. :/

[@mndlessdrwer]

"You must construct additional pylons"

[@akaraven66]

Americans will need a bigger breaker. But in many parts of the world we can run more power, in Australia we can run upwards of 2400W on a single power plug which is 10 amps. But that's not even going to be an issue, houses are limited to how much amps they can pull overall and here we get around 60-80 amps, our oven? Upwards of 25 amps, so sure, oven is not always in use, but than you start up the microwave, fridge is going, TV, amp, Playstation for the kids, lights, you get the idea and all of a sudden 60+ amps is being used and there goes the entire house circuit. Soon pulling upwards of 10 amps including monitors, printers, router, and for computer nerds running these machines that's all day, it does make you wonder how much longer we will be able to survive like this. And you think pulling 10 amps is not going to happen? Here we have 2000W+ vacuum cleaners, a vacuum cleaner. The current top end PSU's are running around 1000W, that's already 4 amps potential. Add a second CPU on the same breaker. Heat issue with a single CPU/GPU, soon dual CPU and back to dual GPU to alleviate the heat, than they will just pump more power and bigger PSU's and we are worse off. We are getting to a point where the tech we have will just hit a limit and that's it, it will than come down to Intel, Nvidia, AMD and Mac to design parts that run less power, but same performance. They can't keep pushing more power just to increase performance, no one will be able to run the tech without micro managing what can or cannot be run in the whole house, and that includes countries with high end breakers and good amp loads.

[@Daz5Daz]

@@PNWAffliction The ~110V nations are going to have some serious concerns about Amps in the next few years. The ~240V nations have some breathing space for now......

[@driven01]

No shit. Insane.

[@entitledOne]

The understated thing here is that those temps were taken at a 22°C ambient. Meaning for most people it will be hotter than in these charts. For some people those CPUs will throttle during summer no matter what cooler they have. Manufacturers really need to dial back the insane power consumption.

[@gamebuster800]

You can dail back power consumption yourself. I reduced the power budgets of my PCs hardware and it's near silent while only losing a few % performance over stock. Power budget of my GPU is 70%.

[@Grant82gc]

This is something I've learnt myself through trail and error. Here in Australia my room temps can get over 30 degrees in summer, I have to dial back my rig just so it will run stable. I've got 2 360mm radiators but if ambient temperature is high they still aren't enough.

[@guillaumejoop6437]

Intel* afaik AMD still have manageable temp even on the 5950X

[@marsovac]

@@gamebuster800 and you think that is normal? Why should people have to reduce power budgets? If we have to do it, that means that there are no efficient SKUs in any price range. Everything they sell is superclocked. As en example: an underclocked 3080 at the same TDP as a normal 3070 performs better. That means that the 3070 is working out of the efficiency range, and the stock 3080 as well. They are bumping power up knowing that the performance gain is miniscule while doing so.

[@NoobDeGuerra]

@@gamebuster800 The things is.. you shouldn't have to adjust your CPU yourself to make it usable, yes we can do it, but that's because someone that follows LTT or other related channels already have some understanding of CPU overclocking or undervolting, but that's obviously not the case for the average consumer.

[@kye3k1]

Thanks for calling out the excessive wattage direction the industry is going. In an age of higher living costs (lower budgets), higher energy costs, hotter rooms (weather) we need to be going in the OPPOSITE direction! Cooler, lower power, cheaper CPUs.

[@MC-ml3cn]

Meh, 3/4 of the year my pc is technically 100% efficient as it works as a space heater during the winter.

[@MrGothicruler666]

@@MC-ml3cn I'm in Texas and that would only be helpful for a month or 2

[@shadowcheto85]

It's an interesting contrast to the new GPU division they have. Those guys talked about targeting good performance at a lower TDP in general (WAN Show) .

[@MC-ml3cn]

@@MrGothicruler666 then maybe you should focus on buying products with a better tdp. I will continue not caring.

[@RealMephres]

@@MC-ml3cn My humor might be terrible, but I laughed at that comment

[@NexGen-3D]

Water cooling has one major advantage, heat exchanging, moving the heat to a remote location, and if setup correctly, moving it away from all other internal components.

[@ZeldagigafanMatthew]

At least until the water reaches the temperature of the components its trying to cool. It's like they want us to use means of cooling even more exotics than what IceGiant is doing.

[@davide4725]

I agree, one advantage. At least 2 or 3 disadvantages, makes me consider getting rid of my AIO. 1. Pumps failing, less use overall compared to Air Cooling 2. Leak concerns 3. Usually water cooling takes more space, either rad room or blocks

[@therodyman700]

@@davide4725 How does water cooling take more space then an aircooler? if anything you move the part that uses most of the space away from the middle of your computer and move it to the side.

[@FraYoshi]

My components are waaay fresher since I installed the Giant ^^ (TR 1900X)

[@stinkiaapje]

@@therodyman700 Because you have space in the middle of your case that goes unused anyway

[@espresso574]

Stoked to see Ice Giant releasing another product. I got the aluminum model for my threadripper build and I have been incredibly happy with it. The biggest downsides are the ram clearance and you have to remove the CPU cooler to swap out any ram sticks, which can be a pain. Other than that, performance is great. Keeps my CPU below 70c when I'm rendering. Stoked to see how the final copper version will perform.

[@goldstick3D]

Under 70? Around 68 is when cores turn clock down btw 😅

[@christophervanzetta]

@@goldstick3D 60C for AMD…

[@espresso574]

@@goldstick3D Is it really that low? Thats kind of crazy. I have a 3960x and I thought my temps seemed pretty good compared to what others were posting. I do also have it OC @ 4ghz, but if its throttling and reducing the core clock after 68c then I'm not really getting any improvement. The noctua cooler I had on it took it to 78C under similar loads so I thought the new ice giant was a huge improvement. Guess I'll have to revisit my setup to see if I can make improvements somewhere..

[@TheDarkestPhoenix]

I think we're starting to plateau in terms of performance/power draw, because this same issue is occurring with GPUs as well. They're getting up to 4 slot territory to get a reasonable cooler attached and even the back plane needs cooling.

[@B_M_A]

Facts lol. I just bought a Hybrid 3090 Ti FTW3 and it has a whopping 360mm rad/AIO. It comes in Tuesday and I'm hoping that I don't regret my purchase. Currently I have a 3080 FTW3 and I put a Hybrid kit on it (240mm) I noticed memory temps even gaming were upwards 85-88C which is silly IMO so I repasted the card and put some Gelid pads on it and got it to calm down to 70C. I did order a custom made set (forget the website) of thermal pads they claim near 20wK heat dissipation but I'm likely not going to bother putting them on.

[@adrianafamilymember6427]

@@B_M_A why would you get such a powerful machine that powers three families, AWESOME!

[@MickeyKraut419]

welllll... You're not wrong. Current architectures are hitting the limits of the available lithography techniques, but it will be very interesting to see what comes next. But with GPUs... well the 3090s are a bit of an outlier in that regard. Many RTX 2000 series cards and many of the RX6000 series cards have 2 to 2.25 slot coolers from AIB partners and perform just fine. How many of us in the consumer market are actually making use of ray tracing and 4k high refresh gaming and own a 3090 or 3090Ti? Significantly less than 1%. Hell I think if I remember correctly from the last time Steam released data more than 90% of gamers still run 1080p setups with 8 or less GB of VRAM. The truth is a RTX 3080 with a decent cooler handles virtually any title on the market at high frame rates at 1440 and below, which is where the vast majority of gamers live and operate. I'm willing to bet about half or more of the end users for RTX 3090 series cards are likely to not be gamers as much as content creators looking for an all in one workhouse for their streams. Other most likely user base I can see is content creators utilizing the card for what they honestly are when you look at the specs, workstation quality performance with high memory capacity and bandwidth, capable of pretty reasonable times on high resolution renders, animation, and editing while being significantly cheaper with better, quieter integrated cooling than Quadro series cards with similar amounts of VRAM... not too mention the insane pricing for the the animation/rendering suites that are Quadro certified by NVidia.

[@tammasus]

I think dual processors will be the way to go, like Xeon. That way you can distribute heat to two different sources

[@Warsheep2k6]

@@MickeyKraut419 even for 4k everything upwards of a 3070/6700xt can handle it somewhat if you dont go ultra

[@killianf7845]

Remember the time that the AMD FX had a bad reputation due to their "high" TDP of 125W for the FX 8350, and nowadays it seems to be fine 🤷 So weird how time make things normal 😅

[@killianf7845]

@@infernaldaedra oh yeah I believe that because I have a friend that uses it everyday 😁 I had that one but the motherboard is dead sadly 🥺

[@caiustox]

@@infernaldaedra It really isn't.

[@slimpotato3332]

@@infernaldaedra I have to disagree bro

[@PhantomNA]

They got crap because they didn’t perform well AND they ran hot. So it just didn’t make any sense lol

[@Mojave_Ranger_NCR]

@@infernaldaedra FX processors are literally hot garbage lol

[@stimpsonjcat26]

It isn't about water vs air vs... It is about surface area. Water cooling allows you to get the cooler and fans to a area that is bigger and is capable of moving more air over a larger surface area. In the end they all are cooled by air and air can only exchange heat so fast hence the need for more surface area

[@OmniKoneko]

Exactly 💯

[@tomhollins5303]

Agree. You have to have enough fin surface area to shed the heat to the air. (And the AIO in the test had a lot less area than the thermo siphon, so no surprise there.) But I wonder if we are getting to a point with so much heat coming off such a small package than the mechanism to get the heat to the fins can have a significant impact? There is only so much space for heat pipes and each heat pipe has an upper limit beyond which it cant easily perform. Thermo siphons can get more liquid back to the contact plate. Water cooling pumps even more liquid through the contact plate to grab heat, but cant grab as more heat per unit mass as it isn't using phase change. Which is best, I dont know. Would be interesting to compare the thermo siphon to a custom loop with equivalent fin area.

[@Galiant2010]

I feel like the next best step appropriate for consumer size/use would be to have a tower where one of the side panels is just one big radiator that can be hooked up to a custom loop. Probably be like 3x360mm, three 360mm rads stacked vertically to make a 3x3 120mm fan size setup. Could maybe do 140mm fans for full towers. Fan noise would definitely still be an issue, but if you're really pushing for that much power I feel like you just have to expect compromises. Maybe in the future homes will be built with a built in pipe system for each room that you can tap into that would pump water to a radiator outside lol. Though, when I'm with my PC in my room I always have headphones in so I never hear my PC anyways, and it's my ceiling fan that makes the most noise. But even without all of that... I was never really bothered by fan noise, anyways. I find it to be a relaxing white noise, but I know that's not the case for everyone.

[@OmniKoneko]

@@Galiant2010 true, I was also thinking what about they ship just a cooling tower that sits next to your computer tower connect with tubes, then they can improve the cooling exponentially without ever worrying about it being fitted for all cases

[@tomhollins5303]

@@OmniKoneko Now these do exist (almost): Aqua Computer Airplex Gigant 3360 and Alpha Cool Eiswand 360 Solo. I say almost as the Aqua Computer one is huge but only has one fan and the Eiswand has full push pull fans, res etc but its still a 360. Maybe the lines will get an update with more capacity now that the CPUs are heating up.

[@oscarmike47]

I have been watching LTT for a few years now. I just wanted to say thank you to the LTT team. I know it hasnt always smooth sailing but watching you grow brings a smile to my face. I have learned a lot from this channel (and subsequent chanels) and you always keep things fun and interesting. What has kept me a viewer over these years has been the transparency of LTT. Always remaining as honest as possible (without jeopardizing your company) with your audience. there will always be the haters, fanboys and conspiracy guys but we know to ignore them. your always gonna have those people on any platform on the internet. Keep doing what your doing guys its great. Your an amazing team. PS. linus, book a holliday you deserve one.

[@seanburke997]

I like Linus a lot more than I like Jay right now.

[@therealpbristow]

So... if the orientation of the cooler is important (because it's using gravity to return the liquid), then which orientation is it meant to be used in? 'Cos that test bench has the motherboard laying flat and the cooler physically sitting directly over the CPU - which seems like it would be optimal - but does that means it's not suitable for use in a tower case? Or is it in fact designed with the expectation of being mounted on the side of of vertical CPU in a tower case, and maybe not delivering it's best on that test-bench? We need a comparison video: Vertical versus horizontal orientation, *as well as* open versus closed-case. =:oo

[@Sandriell]

-You are correct, this will not work in tower style cases, meaning like 95% of the cases out there. So it is an incredibly niche cooler and frankly dead on arrival for this reason.- EDIT: Looks like I was mistaken. What I get for just going by what Linus said in the video. Looking at the product page, it does indeed look like it can work in both orientations as long as its rotated the correct way.

[@zagohcap]

@@Sandriell That's false. The cooler can work in horizontal or mounted right side up (With the logo orientation correct). It just can't be mounted turned 90 degrees or upside down.

[@deathab0ve]

@@Sandriell Linus could have clarified it better. It can't be upside down is the main take away. It also must face as specific orientation on the CPU. Like if you put a red dot on the NH-D15 on a corner, then installed it. The red dot could be top left, top right, bottom left or bottom right. With the Artic cooler, if you put the red dot above the logo to the left. Then it would need to be in the top left corner when the case is in correct configuration. If the dot is top right, bottom right, or bottom left, the current of liquid will not preform correctly. 6:13 as you see here it works fine if you laid it flat it would still work fine, but if you twisted the cooler 90 degrees down, it wont work, so it MUST have the long bit over the ram in this motherboard. Basically if it is a test bench or a Case as long as the logo is readable normally from the POV of standing straight in a room and being below the cpu socket then it will work. There is there support page, common question it is number 3. www.icegiantcooling.com/pages/support

[@ghaviorizky3961]

@@Sandriell then if somehow your statement is true,then why icegiant is still selling this product lmao. You can use it in a normal mobo orientation (inside a case) BUT you need to make sure the icegiant logo is rightside up and not upside down

[@Nilboggen]

@@zagohcap If we stop and think about it though that doesn't make sense. If we look at their diagram at 3:19 it doesn't make sense that it would work as well in a vertical motherboard position. I see that their product page says, "Unlike a typical thermosiphon design, the patented ProSiphon technology is engineered to operate in either the horizontal or vertical orientation (with respect to the motherboard)." But there is no way it can work as efficiently in a vertical orientation even if they have engineered it to "work" in that orientation. The heat will struggle to make it to the second loop in that diagram when it is vertical since it's trying to go up as heat does. Edit: I will say that I did watch the Splave video also and did observe him using it vertically and fully admit he knows far more about cooling a cpu than I do but I would sure be interested to see it tested in both orientations.

[@GTRdeamon]

Another reason for why i am glad i chose a 5950X to air cool. My Noctua NH-D15 handels that CPU with ease. stock it peaks at 72 C for single core boost and multi at 56 C while with PBO single is stil the same and multi is around 76 C now. So if 12900K all readyu at stock hits 95 C and thermal throttle in side a case with even one of the bedst aircoolers. This shows to me that either intel are pushing alder lake very close to it´s limit or alder lake is infact horrible inefficiant or maybe bofh. Hornestly i dont like the way hardware is going. It becomes faste but also at increasing power consumption. Not just CPU´s but as well GPU´s.

[@helloukw]

Yeah, only apple tries to make power consumption low at this point, but that's not gonna last for long and its clearly not relevant to consumer market, its more of a niche.

[@gucky4717]

A 5950X is only 80-142W in Stock. A 12900k is about 100-250W. Intel AND AMD have Boosts that give their CPUs as much Power as Thermals and the Powerlimit allows. For a 5950X there is also a 1,5V Cap that i know of (I own one). So as long as no Thermal or Power Limit is hit, the CPU will boost further and further ignoring any efficiency. My 5950X hits about 85W with 1,5V on Cinebench Singlecore, while Allcore hits 142W, since that is the Cap. Temps are worse on singlecore, since that is boosted higher. The difference between single and allcore is 20-30°C!!! with allcore hitting 65°C. As with Intel their CPUs run into the Thermallimit of 100°C earlier then the Power or Voltage-Limit compared to AMD.

[@Odinsday]

@@gucky4717 AMD may lose in terms of performance (Game-wise/Single Core) a lot of the time to Intel, but they absolutely crush them in terms of power efficiency.

[@StarfoxHUN]

@@helloukw Well as Apple more interested in portable computers (Yea they have non-portable pc's too, but those are much less popular compared to their portable pc's), and there power consumption is important.

[@mxracingunlimitedltd7784]

@@helloukw NO that's definitely not true. One of the biggest selling point and things people enjoy about their MacBook's, Ipads, & even iPhones with the best battery life out of anything else in that category usually by almost double.. LTT tested the New MacBook M1 battery life compared to a bunch of other laptops including the previous Intel Chipped MacBook's. The M1 MacBook went like almost two full days playing a video on loop which is pretty amazing.. And i know my older MacBook will still have a better battery life then my newer name-brand Intel Cpu based PC Laptop

[@thesuperrobertlol]

linus: "cooling with no moving parts" meanwhile the fans: "am i a joke to you?"

[@Matty.Hill_87]

Even without fans I reckon this would perform OK with adequate air flow in the case

[@quackatit]

@@ilovefunnyamv2nd prototype model

[@OmniKoneko]

@@quackatit it's almost like it was a joke 🤣

[@casedistorted]

gotta have those meme comments on a video.

[@dennisn3955]

@@ilovefunnyamv2nd not sure about easily. Linus doesn't give a shit about handling components because they're not personally his. If it was mine, I'd handle it with care. Kinda annoying actually.

[@uponpaul]

I do agree with the fact that power usage and requirements are getting quite insane. On the other side I do understand it from the CPU and GPU manufacturers. Getting smaller than 5 nm, both just designing it as well as making the wafers be consistent enough is a super hard challenge. Therefore I think they are 'filling' this production issue with higher power usage and tuning the processors to that, which is I think easier than getting production stable and small enough. Going forward this will be a interesting challenge.

[@itskdog]

Something's got to give at some point. It would seem like current architechtures just aren't cutting it, given that Apple have been able to get equivalent performance with less power draw by switching to ARM, and even Microsoft have been exploring Windows on ARM again, but this time as full desktop Windows rather than a stripped down version like WinRT was, so I'd hazard a guess that they're expecting a shift at some point soon and will start courting other chip makers once the Qualcomm exclusivity deal ends, but I would assume that the x86 duopoly doesn't want to give up the cash cow to a more competitive ecosystem that they're not in control of any time soon, be that ARM or RISC V.

[@freakingwilly]

8:15 - I always wondered how long it would take for those cables to rip. For some reason, Arctic Cooling uses really thin gauge on their fans (IceGiant uses rebranded Arctic P12 fans). Maybe this is how they keep their cost down?

[@bismuth7730]

Those fans are amazing and a lot of brands rebrand those exact fans. I have them on my iChill AIO 2080ti

[@Phynellius]

I had a similar issue with the original EK Vardars tearing right off their pads while cable managing them, there wasn't any strain relief just the solder holding it on

[@freakingwilly]

@@bismuth7730 Absolutely agreed. I buy the PWM PST 120mm versions in the 5x boxes whenever they go on sale on Amazon. Swapped out my EKWB Basic 360mm AIO and my modded EVGA 2080 Super FTW3 Hybrid (swapped in the 240mm AIO from RTX 3000). Cool AND quiet? Yes pleaase!

[@freakingwilly]

@@Phynellius My EKWB Basic AIO came with Vardars too, but they were too noisy at 50% load. The P12s I run throughout my case push more air, do it quieter, and at $8 each... no brainer!

[@dudebroguymate]

I have a P14 that's been hanging by the cable in a case since last year. I've been too lazy to open the case and fix it.

[@squidapple9662]

"DON’T Water Cool Your PC!" proceeds to water cool nearly every build at LTT for years to come

[@blogdesign7126]

😂🤣

[@illansuu9572]

One thing water cooling has is that it looks much better than air cooling

[@BlueDrew10]

@@illansuu9572 It also makes the case easier to work in because the bulk of the cooler is out of the way of the motherboard.

[@engineeringvision9507]

Go get a well paying job so you can buy a top spec pc so you can play a computer game where pretend to be a low paid worker in a high risk job like the army 😂

[@BlueDrew10]

@@engineeringvision9507 "Hi, my name's EngineeringVision, and I like to intentionally oversimplify things to corrupt a narrative."

[@jerryferguson5]

I'm glad to see Ice Giant is improving overall with their product. Hope they keep improving in the long run cus, even though I'm at the paper thin low learning stage of all this, I think they have awesome potential.

[@squatch545]

A year later and Ice Giant still hasn't released the copper plate version.

[@spammus1]

It's always nuts to see how the NH-D15 can outperform an AIO cooler. I wonder if Noctua will ever do something like Ice Giant given that the performance advantage is there.

[@GeekProdigyGuy]

Pretty sure Ice Giant has patents or at least applied for them. Noctua would have to develop a different approach.

[@gamm8939]

Definitely not. Noctua does not have the manpower to build something like this. The new gen NH D-15 has been push-backed time and time again. The NH D15 got released like 8 years ago.

[@Thyrfingrulez]

What if we use noctua fan instead of the ice giant ones. BOOOOOM

[@casedistorted]

I got a 5800X and I was so glad I had an NH-D15 ChromaBlack Air Cooler for it, man that CPU runs HOT. Even with the NH-D15. At least compared to the 2700X I had previously.

[@Jeroensgambling]

@@casedistorted They dont run hot. Thats PBO for you. It will make it run hot because thats what it does.

[@watercannonscollaboration2281]

As I always say, the 12900KS and the 3090ti is the global warming combo

[@fluffyjello]

Room warming at a minimal.

[@joaquinflores2741]

House warming, with a street-broad power outage, as a bonus

[@kenny-ph9dw]

I don't think heat is the cause of global warming? Global warming cause the heat right?

[@yuxuanhuang3523]

@@joaquinflores2741 years later, people are running old 3090s for their efficiency in generating heat in a small formfactor with the extra benefit of having a video output🤣

[@overlordmarkus]

With gas prices as they are in Europe it's actually a viable heating solution now.

[@RimaNari]

And here I was, thinking that Intel's adoption of bigLITTLE would bring on more power-efficient CPUs. Instead, things are going the opposite direction it seems.

[@Alex_1A]

It could be more power efficient *and* draw more power.

[@Wheres_my_Dragonator]

Efficiency only means it can squeeze out more performance out of x amount of power. It still needs a ton of power to exceed amd's performance in the end. The real problem here is that intel is still using monolithic dies, which eat up a ton of power and shit out a ton of heat. Their solution to efficiency is to tack on low ARM tier chips, when the majority of pc programs will use the normal chips at full power anyway, completely negating any theoretical efficiency gains they might have had. AMD's chiplets are a better solution. Smaller chips use less power overall even if there's a bunch of them glued together since the energy doesn't need to travel as far.

[@ADMNtek]

they are you just get more umf for your power.

[@Yusuf_K7]

​@@Wheres_my_Dragonator Intel just needs to suck it up and collaborate with TSMC like AMD, while in the meantime working on their own die. Edit: Though they may already be doing so.

[@Bugattiboy912]

Blinn's Law. Rather than have the same performance at less power consumption they'll take whatever they gained an spend it on new performance because they know their competition will be doing the same.

[@abnormallynormal8823]

The thing with water cooling, is that you can have as big of a radiator and as many of them as you want, but the cooling performance is still going to be limited by the thermal capacity of the block. Eventually it’s gonna have to be like an engine’s water cooling, where we have a thick block with tunnels cut through it for liquid to pass through

[@martinrwolfe]

I think more likely is that there would be active refrigeration to control the temperature of the water at the entry point of the CPU block. So that rather than running at ambient it would be a consatnt value of say 12C. This would mean that the primary loop between the CPU and the heat exchanger would need to be insulated to avoid condenstion problems droping moisture out of the air inside the case however.

[@biga9094]

I wish you would have done some closed case testing for this video, one of the primary advantages of an AIO is how it pulls air from the exterior of the case vs circulating hot air in the case. The tests performed in this video are biased towards air coolers due to being an open air bench, which you mention in the video but it would be more comprehensive to see numbers open and closed to see the difference there.

[@SamClan_91]

go with a good airflow case?

[@GeekProdigyGuy]

@@SamClan_91 but no matter how good the airflow is in a case, it wouldn't beat open air. and therefore the comparison b/w AIO and air cooling isn't even valid for actual consumers (except for the tiny minority that actually daily drive open bench)

[@SamClan_91]

@@GeekProdigyGuy well only if you use your AIO with an intake configuration and not with an outtake. But yes I would normally use it in an intake configuration.

[@Majere613]

As I understand it there are two issues holding back the AIO here. One is that there's only so much heat the waterblock can exchange in a given amount of time, which the air cooler also hits and the IceGiant seems to do better at. The other is a lack of thermal volume- compared to a custom loop with a reservoir, an AIO only has so much liquid to soak up heat, meaning it hits saturation faster. For me, the biggest advantage of a proper watercooled build (i.e. both the CPU and GPU) is that with the radiator as your exhaust, you have almost no heat inside the case itself. If you're running the IceGiant alongside a high-end GPU, it's going to be very efficiently dumping all that CPU heat into the case for your GPU to bask in. You could use it alongside a watercooled or hybrid GPU, but then you've still either got the GPU heating up air before it hits the IceGiant (if the rad is an intake) or the same hot air problem all over again (if the rad is an exhaust.) I'll be sticking with custom loop for now, I think. If IceGiant could come up with a way to use this tech to make a more efficient waterblock, that could be a game-changer.

[@panzerfan]

We need so much thermal volume that even AIOs are getting overwhelmed by the newest CPUs! I agree with you. We are at the point where the only viable path is to go with custom waterloop to keep the temp in check while keeping the volume at an acceptable level. This is getting ridiculous.

[@Jeroensgambling]

AIO can be tweaked. Its simple. Use a washer mod in order to increase it's pressure onto the CPU. It will lower the temps with ~ 2 to 5 degrees. Also use a "high end" paste and retest a few times before you really have the best result. Third; a AIO works best when you sandwich it with 4 fans and not just two. Push pull configuration it's called. Step 3 is always leave your pump at 12V and not using PWM or something. Step 4 is tweak your fan profile. Step 5 > Undervolt.

[@luminatrixfanfiction]

I'm actually thinking that IceGiant could potentially create a hybrid AIO + IceGiant Copper air cooler to give the best bang for your buck. A rad on top with a loop that goes through a transient phase of interlocking mesh in the fins which transfer heat partially to the coil loop and partially through the radiator fins at the top with a water cooled loop system. It might sound like it defeats the purpose of air cooling but I suspect you can get as much as a 20 degree drop in temperatures. IceGiant's technology is good and impressive, but they can take advantage of a hybrid air/water cooling system since water is an exceptional conductor of heat. The result could be that you could achieve less than 80 degrees celsius on a 600 watt cpu, theoretically.

[@atomicknoob]

Ideally with the icegiant you would have a case with fans along the top to pull the as the Ice Giant blows air up overhead case fans would immediately vent out the CPU air. The GPU in this case might cause a problem with dumping hot air towards the CPU, but it's really starting to become unavoidable that one component doesn't heat the other without separate AIO loops or an open bench.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@Ops Blac IceGiant heatsink seems to be size the same as 240 mm AIO cooler. However, it doesn't use water to first transfer heat from the socket to water and another transition from water to cooler, so it should be more effective in cooling than any 240 AIO system. I think the only competition for IceGiant is 360 mm AIO setup.

[@kcgunesq]

As a dh-15 happy user, if I ever needed more cooling, I would absolutely put this option at the top of my list.

[@Tuxattack8094]

I’d love to see your team put together a closed loop cooling tower setup. Interesting to see how thermals would compare to that of a regular AIO or open loop system. Thought about doing it myself but don’t have the funds or engineering to do so

[@DerKeyCee]

I would really apreciate a rant video concerning recent and upcoming CPU/GPU powertargets. With half the world trying to keep emissions down and beeing more green, this trend of just forcing more juice through the silicon infuriates me more and more. I remember a time when 200 Watts were a lot for a good gaming machine. And that is just sad...

[@minetech4898]

@Transistor Jump for a laptop, sure. Desktop though? I wouldn't put anywhere close to a 200w power supply in my PC. Edit: maybe I misinterpreted your comment, yes, 200w is a lot of power still, but way less than what systems use today.

[@CypherDND]

Many don't care about being green or emissions - and that is fine btw - just getting the maximum performance possible. If you do, purchase products that achieve that.

[@laurencefraser]

@@yungfisherman4 .... I generally find midrange GPUs from the generation before the current one will do pretty much everything that's worth the effort. And then keep doing so for getting on towards a decade or more barring faults or some Really new and disruptive technology (something that comes up Far less often than you'd think from the marketing). or a significant change in your use case, of course.

[@simonmcneilly55]

I remember a time where all I built was systems with 1500w psu’s GTX 9800 sli days....

[@grenadeasc]

If you care that much about efficiency you could technically dial back most newer cards (Undervolt + Underclock) and drop their power usage from 300 Watts to around 140 same with the cpus, you will however lose quite a bit of performance

[@lil_propane]

Linus: don't watercool your PC Also Linus: has his gaming server and almost every PC he built on the channel water cooled

[@ADMNtek]

because it looks cool. And for his rig look at the length, he went to dumping the heat into his pool. He spend more on his cooling than most people spend on their full Rig.

[@boomkruncher325zzshred5]

Heat pipes have a wicking structure lining the interior walls of the pipes, allowing for the interior coolant inside to move the liquid phase back to the hot areas of the heat pipe via capillary action to be evaporated again. Thermosiphons are heat pipes that do not have that wicking structure, so most thermosiphons just use gravity. Sintered copper is essentially copper powder that is half-melted to the inside wall of a copper pipe or tube. It creates a porous cake-structure that has vastly superior capillary action than most wick structures, the problem being it is finicky to create. Your manufacturer MUST have their materials and processes locked down to prevent too many failed units; if you get 80 percent success rate when making these heat pipes/thermosiphons, you are pretty reliable. The failures can be recycled and reforged into more copper/copper powder, so it’s not a total loss, but STILL.

[@deancameronkaiser]

I like how the Noctua cooler was only compared in a portion of the video but the rest it was just the ice giant and EK 240MM AIO.

[@norkris8729]

hehe true, but it does not matter much, AIOs beats nhd15 good

[@fanaticmd3032]

+1 for Team Air. It‘s just as simple as „what can failure with(in) an aircooler?“ - only the fan. Easy and cheap replacement fan - done. No pump, no cooling fluid/water, no leakage, no flubber inside - nothing. Only maintenance needed - dust removal.

[@Praxss]

Air coolers are best!!! I will compromise with heat or less performance from cpu.

[@andrewszerbiak7330]

Lmao +1? Limited orientation costs way more and has 4 fans instead of just 2 like an aio. That aio will die in like 6 to 10 years generally and most have warranty's of decent length. This is def not a +1 to air cooling. I can easily get a 280 aio for 90 bucks these days.

[@12346798Mann]

My loop has been running since 3-4 years with the same water and a PWM D5 pump that's usually at 40%. But dust removal is a pain :(

[@andrewszerbiak7330]

@@12346798Mann paint brush and a vacuum super easy dust removal

[@12346798Mann]

@@andrewszerbiak7330 i know, my brother has a paintbrush + compressor and its super handy. I live next to a major train station and have a lot of fine dust that likes to stick to the fans, usually only wiping it off helps

[@shadowchamp2001]

As someone who lives in a region where temperatures are around 26-30C ambient, I can say going to 12th gen had a NOTICEABLE increase in temps.

[@uss_liberty_incident]

*Laughs in 48C*

[@ScottJWaldron]

Also getting tired of the increased thermal output of components, though I guess if they want to offer it as an option they might as well. I'll just buy whatever ends up being reasonable. The problem would be if they stop offering CPUs with 65w targets (GPUs ~150w). Hopefully it doesn't get that bad, lol.

[@Playingwith3D]

It is starting to get to the point where instead of just thinking about larger PSU's to power these next gen parts, but you might also want to start thinking about having your rig on a seperate circuit from your monitor, modem, speakers, and so on as to not pop circuit breakers.

[@Eren-da-Jaeger]

While I am more worried about Linus's eyes. His left eye is really going away from alignment with right one because he has been training those eyes to have quick look at the script prompter while portraying himself to be looking a camera.

[@jessicacolegrove511]

Bahh next thing you know they will start to need liquid nitrogen to keep these things cool

[@kuza3991]

This world is rapidly passing away and I hope that you repent and take time to change before all out disaster occurs! Belief in messiah alone is not enough to grant you salvation - Matthew 7:21-23, John 3:3, John 3:36 (ESV is the best translation for John 3:36) if you believed in Messiah you would be following His commands as best as you could. If you are not a follower of Messiah I would highly recommend becoming one. Call on the name of Jesus and pray for Him to intervene in your life - Revelation 3:20. Contemplate how the Roman Empire fulfilled the role of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 confirms that it is in fact Rome. From this we can conclude that A) Jesus is the Son of God and can predict the future or make it happen, B) The world leaders/nations/governments etc have been conspiring together for the last 3000+ years going back to Babylon and before, C) History as we know it is fake. You don't really need to speculate once you start a relationship with God. Can't get a response from God? Fasting can help increase your perception and prayer can help initiate events. God will ignore you if your prayer does not align with His purpose (James 4:3) or if you are approaching Him when "unclean" (Isaiah 1:15, Isaiah 59:2, Micah 3:4). Stop eating food sacrificed to idols (McDonald's, Wendy's etc) stop glorifying yourself on social media or making other images of yourself (Second Commandment), stop gossiping about other people, stop watching obscene content etc. Have a blessed day!

[@pinao9928]

@@kuza3991 bruh this is a video about watercooling, no one asked. I suggest you take the hint and cool yourself down as well.

[@kuza3991]

@@pinao9928 it still doesn't change the fact that you can start a relationship with God if you make a serious attempt

[@TheEplestugas]

I like how everyone involved in making this video clearly had a lot of fun doing so.

[@err_4189]

Next video about groundbreaking cooling technology will be "pool cooling" that Linus plan for his new house. Love the video

[@John_Croft]

i guess a lot of us will be doing the opposite to overclocking nowadays, when we buy new cpu or gpu we will be downclocking to get the power consumption down and obviously the temps, but it really is getting daft with high tdp and temps as of late, i for one will always stay with air cooling, not a fan of water cooling at all, and most high quality air coolers still do better than water anyway, the only downside is they just dont look as nice

[@ItsReallyGeo]

As someone that made the leap from Nvidias 20 series to a 3080TI-- for the first time in my life do I understand water cooling. A 30 series GPU under load that's quieter than the AC really is a beautiful thing Expensive for sure, but beautiful

[@bigpod]

Or you could just buy lower end product

[@khoahatake2017]

Underclocking has been a thing for a while now, especially for older gen AMD CPUs

[@ShantanuBaviskar]

@@ItsReallyGeo The thing that keeps holding me back from Liquid cooling is the fear of leakage. That's it really.

[@mikewilliams5803]

@@ShantanuBaviskar as long as you do your homework,a lot like looking for a pc setup, they are pretty reliable, and to this day (5yrs,2pcs) exceptional changing fluid (custom) has no doubt never had any heat issues,and god is it quiet. 3x 360 push and pull. 4.9 5800X..2100mhz 3090 HC

[@Ken_neThT]

6:09 "That also kinda speaks volumes, doesn't it?" After talking about the fan noises increasing by 10dB? I see what you did there Linus

[@Hivemind_Sponsored_]

📩👆

[@Interknetz]

I feel like these higher power requirements are to do with laziness of making more power efficient hardware. As an ITX user, this is rather concerning if I want the best performing hardware whenever I decide to upgrade in 5 years time - I want the NR200P to last me years, ideally be my last case; and well, SFX PSU's only just about are getting 1000w models.

[@Jeroensgambling]

Higher speed creates more heat, since the proces node is becoming smaller and smaller, it's more difficult to cool due to heat density. AMD's design is overall better. 2 CCD's spread under one IHS.

[@reappermen]

Nah, it's more to do with it beeing really hard to increase performance per watt at the same rates that it used to go up by. The new architectures/generations of both CPUs and GPUs are always getting significantly more power efficient (e.g. AMD claims around 20% or so better performance per watt for ryzen 7000 compared to 5000). It's just that a 20% increase is not enought to make consumers upgrsde from one generation to the next, so marketing needs dictate to also up the energy draw to get more additional power. Which is kinda of pointless seeing as most people don't updste every generation anyways.

[@Interknetz]

@@Jeroensgambling Ah I see. I do wonder if we're at a point of ITX being only able to handle x amount of watts (dependent on PSU of course) for the foreseeable, but AMD and Intel continue to make CPU's with low enough power consumption to keep ITX relevant, all while ATX and such being rather being the "ideal" for top end. TL;DR I'm wondering if "size matters" is going to be a thing when it comes to getting the most performance going forward. Seems like it would be the case? (pun not intended) Or perhaps we could see ARM being the next step.

[@Jousten16]

I think laziness plays a big part in this. Just look at the RTX 3080: Most models have a max power draw of around 350 Watt. However as a ton of people have shown you can easily undervolt it and most of the time can run it with below 300 Watt of power draw at the same performance. Some even got as low as 250 Watt and lose maybe 3-5% performance, some better models lose nothing. And with less power draw the products itself don't become as hot and don't cause as much noise too.

[@reappermen]

@@Jousten16 can you give a source for those claims? While it is generally true on high end hardware that you can drop a good chunck of power for comparatively little performance impact, the claim that dropping 50 watts for 0 general performance reduction is highly dubious. That's just not how processors work in general.

[@justsomeperson5110]

I'm really not sure how much longer "the industry" (aka Intel, AMD, nVidia, etc.) can keep ramping up power consumption to solve all of their performance woes. We're already reaching cringe levels of power usage. Any higher and we're talking about building systems that you have to run a dedicated power line to just your PC! Monitor, speakers, printer, router, etc. powered separately. And with the CPU and the GPU both demanding insane cooling, it's hard to find a case that'll even let you put that many rads into it to cool both hungry hungry hippos effectively. IMHO this has just plain got to stop. But nVidia is already talking about 3ven m0ar P0W3R5!!!! for their 4x series. WTAF?! I can't help but wonder how much crypto has driven this insanity.

[@chrisc6497]

blame society's greed and the wonderful yet capitalistic, United States of America...Who the rest of the world is looking tooooooooooo RIP

[@mbvglider]

I think when you're on tech channels, it's easy to overestimate how much of the world is actually willing to do any of this. Look at actual sales, and you'll see that twice as many laptops are sold as desktops, and that like 80% of computers run integrated graphics. My most optimistic napkin math, hence, tells me that it's probably at most something like 5% of the computer market that even considers a midrange to high-end gaming card. Nobody is making that much margin on the rest of the 95%, so the manufacturers are getting crazier and crazier to attract that high-margin 5% who will pay for performance. It's an ever-shrinking niche market that needs to get more and more extreme to attract buyers. I don't know where this ends up, but I'm pretty sure it ends when people stop buying at the extreme top end, and on the contrary, it seems like those people are willing to pay more and more.

[@Darkeninggg]

@@chrisc6497 capitalism is a W

[@chrisc6497]

@@Darkeninggg agree. doesn't mean its not part of the reason there is a 4000 series being released soon and a perfectly good 3090ti basically sitting in the garbage

[@alohatigers1199]

@@mbvglider Because laptops are portable, you can travel anywhere with a laptop. Obviously. So, people who buy laptop must have a job that requires traveling. And majority of customers don’t know anything about PC so whatever laptop is trending, they will buy it. Just so happens that it’s Apple that offers it because we know Apple is a Well Known famous company. Obviously ads plays a key role. Basic marketing. What you can do is build a custom Laptop that can beat Apple’s Laptops in terms of performance. And advertise it worldwide and people will sell their Apple laptops for a better one. So, if you want to expand and attract that “95%” buyers, just build a custom laptop and advertise the shit out of it.

[@DctrGizmo]

That moment when CPU air coolers are getting big as a full GPU.

[@plasmaoctopus1728]

now we need a way to put the thermosiphon onto gpu's.

[@moshikitrain]

Next video: LTT tries to cool a 12900k with the rtx 3090 cooler

[@Powerman293]

@@moshikitrain Most 3090 coolers are basically NH D15s that are spread out horizontally instead of vertically.

[@Skyfalcon12345]

Inb4 a GPU has a thermosiphon attached to it. By Linus.

[@stuntchild]

This video entry is absolutely hilarious. Genius production and acting skills.

[@Snailz5]

I think it’s a little disingenuous and “both sides-y” to try to equivocate Intel and AMD on power consumption. Intel has drawn so much more power for several generations, while everything in AMD’s lineup has been easily handled by the NHD15. AMD is pushing max power targets to 170W for AM5, but might not even be hitting that with a stick part until zen5 with their planned 32-core flagship. It’s ok to look at the numbers and say Intel and Nvidia are clearly much more problematic than AMD for their hardware at the high end and just deal with the fanboy hate.

[@tobiashou7044]

Intel definitely uses more power but Nvidia uses less power than AMD does at basically all price points.

[@robertpatton172]

@@tobiashou7044 3090 450 Watts vs 6900XT 350?

[@Allyouknow5820]

@@tobiashou7044 LOL no 🤣 ? 3060 is 170w TDP and Radeon 6600 is 132w. And the list goes on up until the 6900XT as mentioned. Stop saying bullshit nonsense ?

[@jondonnelly3]

NHD15 is pretty amazing and if want more cooling slap on then industrial 3000rpm fans on it AND the NHD15 will deliver AIO beating performance and never heatsoaks. It is loud, yeah but it's safe and cheap!

[@d4nyll]

@@tobiashou7044 what? Ampere in general consumes more power compared to RDNA2, from 1630/6400 to 3090Ti/6950XT edit: The 1630 is Turing, my bad. Point still stands however

[@michelvanbriemen3459]

I like how really, really vintage car equipment is making its way into today's state-of-the-art PC.

[@tonimahoni2607]

A GPU version of the ICE GIANT cooler would be intresting.

[@wolfgangsohn1246]

don't think tat we will see something like this in the near future at least on consumer parts coz the cooler need gravity to work and i don't see how they wanna do that without switching the orientation of the card

[@johannesdatblue4164]

@@wolfgangsohn1246 that's your worry? Look at the 4000 series imagine that from this brand :x cool but then you need a closet sized case xD

[@FreshSav]

@@wolfgangsohn1246 Riser

[@8bittim]

2 years later and the prototype has MASSIVELY changed to a more 360mm AIO style cooler. You guys need to revisit this, it's completely changed and I've already got my pre order in. Still uses a pump less design, still uses gravity driven cooling, so I'm excited to see what changes and decisions were made that led to such a MASSIVE change. Shipping starts in December

[@FinalSentinel]

Honestly the increase in wattage is a sign of fierce competition, and in that sense is paradoxically a good thing (?). All the manufacturer’s want their halo product to be the “fastest”, and that’s pushing them to up power draw more and more to keep a lead on their competition. The good part about this is people always have the option to buy lower down the stack to find reasonable tdp figures while still getting a solid upgrade in performance.

[@gamm8939]

Yeah idk what he wants Intel to do. Make less capable chips?

[@TopGgii]

@@gamm8939 no - its not a big improvement, if the Clock advantage u are gaining is purely because of an higher TDP and Watt draw. Aka nvidea’s „TI“ line or Intel‘s „K“ & „KS“ line. Improvement means same Performance at lower Wattages (= efficiency) so the overheating problems we are witnessing rn wouldn‘t be so severe…

[@gamm8939]

@@TopGgii Again, what do you want Intel and Nvidia to do?

[@TopGgii]

@@gamm8939 its no secret or woke idea lil bro - there is a reason raptor lake has doubled the efficiency cores? ITS LITERALLY IN THE NAME WAKE UP PLS

[@kadrix732]

@@gamm8939 How about making components which can actually perform better at the same or lower wattage? Doubling the performance by doubling the power ain't a good thing. It's lazy and it's unimpressive. And in the end of the day, it eventually leads to issues like the ones we have now, cooling a high end CPU is becoming basically impossible.

[@KuldarJ]

0:25 Linus talking about sponsors to his kids every night before bed time

[@salz446]

My 12700K was overheating and thermal throttling with a D15, on CINEBENCH. With a Liquid Freezer II 360. I can actually overclock it with no problem, and it runs flawlessly in Prime 95. So the difference between air and water is massive, for the same price.

[@surena9451]

Is that also the case if you let your i7 loop for 20-30 minutes in cinebench? Would be curious to know.

[@salz446]

@@surena9451 yes? Prime 95 is waay more intense anyway. I can run 5.2ghz on Cinebench no problem, just 5.0 on prime95, which I keep running for 30minutes

[@salz446]

@Transistor Jump what aircooler specifically? And how many cores, I have a feeling this is single core

[@salz446]

@Transistor Jump well the ak620 has better contact on adl than d15, try prime95(look up standard oc settings I have not tested it in a while and I forgot) for 30min. Also at what ghz and voltage?

[@salz446]

@Transistor Jump i doubt you are using the correct settings then, plus that's just a ecore oc,

[@Nate_the_Nobody]

I like my water cooler because it doesn't take up space on the board, back when I was using tower coolers that shit was a headache, do you want ultimate cooling performance or do you want to be able to fit non-generic ram in your slots? Oh, the fan on the cooler died? Good luck getting to the fan header without removing the whole damn thing, water cooling might take longer to set up but it's sooooo much easier to mess around inside your PC. I've got my 12700K on a dual rad and it keeps well under 65-70C under gaming load (I don't care about a stress test load my usage will not require such a test) and I idle around the low teens, regular desktop use (chrome, files, videos) is at about 30-40C and I honestly can't complain, this is with increased voltage running to my CPU. The thermo siphon seems like a VERY niche product currently.

[@shi3abooks]

To answer your question Linus, the market is getting fragmented. Most enthusiasts are willing to watercool their cpus, while normal users (let's say gamers) don't really need top of the line CPUs as much as they need GPUs. And, since most of them have a limited budget, they most likely will not purchase that monster. Problem solved (no 600w CPU, so stock cooler should be sufficient)

[@BiffaPlaysCitiesSkylines]

Nice haircut 😋

[@richardkeitz9869]

I'm glad ice giant is doing a great job. I do have to agree that the cost for cooling is awful but i still stand by full custom water cooling loops.

[@OmniKoneko]

Yeah, water cooling is one of the coolest parts of building a PC imo, also it stays out of the way od your components in comparison to huge air coolers

[@anasevi9456]

Water cooling I respect as a hobby unto itself, but it's not practical for most people who just want to build it and forget it besides some dusting. AIO's are okay, but too unreliable for me to ever buy again in the PIA to RMA region i live in. lol

[@Symba_Lysm]

Surprised we didn't see any threadripper coverage considering that's what was included in the first prototype review. It was shown to perform better on MCM chips with a bigger IHS surface area, so I'm rather upset it wasn't shown.

[@Kaymen1980]

I'm knee deep in my custom loop, a hobby in and of itself, but this thing looks awesome.

[@plasmancer6104]

If they could make this like a typical aio (following the needed orientation) this would be so good

[@santiagopostorivo]

I have the same Noctua and i used it with a R7 2700x, R7 3700x and yesterday i upgraded to a R7 5800x 3D. It wont go past the 70 degrees with a silent curve. Love the performance improvement in gaming and how it doesnt spend 200W+ while gaming. I hope the new gen wont make me switch to a custom water cooling solution

[@henryt9731]

This is exactly the reason why i went amd. Intels tdp is stupid

[@ShneekeyTheLost]

If I'm understanding this correctly, the device functions much like a Heat Pump.... basically similar in concept to your home's air conditioning unit. The primary difference is they aren't using a pump to move the fluid/gas but relying on buoyancy/gravity to do the job for them. It's using the phase shift between liquid and gas to absorb/release the heat to move heat away from the CPU. This is a much more efficient means of heat transference than liquid cooling, without the need for a pump. It is technically less efficient than conduction transference through copper, which is thermally extremely conductive, but ends up better on an absolute scale due to the volume transmitted. The next step of this would be something similar to an AIO system but using their coolant instead of water in a closed-loop system which should never be breached. That would likely need a pump to get working, and customizing would be nearly impossible, but it would certainly beat the pants off of any AIO water cooling system. It would be nearly identical to a home's air conditioning unit or a refrigerator's cooling unit.

[@Silet3332]

I might say: as you mentioned in the beginning the alignment is crucial for the system with the gravity to work? i would guess that it is designed to work in a normal PC where it is mounted horizontal and the fans are bottom and top .... but as i understood it you tested it on an open work bench? where it mounted flat (fans left and right)? doesn't that disable the whole function of the cooler or at least make it weaker? - i might be wrong tho'

[@lethalswiss10]

It doesn't the vapour goes up cools and slide back down with gravity. Only when you keep it upside down where water can move up without turning into vapour is when the problem starts. Look at the diagram at 2:05 for clear explanation.

[@SivaKanthSharma]

Basically, the cold plate has to be the lowest point. On the test bench, it’s clearly seen. Even in regular pc mount, you can see the cold plate is not entered but offset so that it can be the lowest point

[@ingocernohorsky]

Works only when motherboard is laid down, not in a normal pc

[@Silet3332]

I had a look at the product page In general I'm right for this kind of cooler but ice giant added some magic so both directions work apparently.

[@pearce05]

@@ingocernohorsky it works in normal cases. It just doesn't work inverted or upside down

[@dmelissourgos]

Linus: DON’T Water Cool Your PC! Also Linus: Water cools his PC, and his consoles, and his cameras, and his phones...

[@ldz7777]

@@Snowmeus He's smart

[@iamnotglenn]

His rig is also in a server rack

[@HoustonTexxas]

@@Snowmeus water cooling is dying?? Lmao you must be smoking some real good sh it!!

[@LN_space]

And a freaking calculator! 😂

[@Isdu]

And his calculators

[@Neoxon619]

As enticing as that cooler looks, it feels like it would be a nightmare to fit it into a smaller PC build. My little brother in particular has an -ATX- ITX case, so……yeah.

[@cablefeed3738]

Yes but I'd hope in a smaller form factor case you're not using a super thermal throttling high energy consuming chip.

[@Neoxon619]

@@cablefeed3738 I’m pretty sure he has the Ryzen 7 3700X.

[@Intelwinsbigly]

That is what you get for using a tiny case.

[@cablefeed3738]

@@Neoxon619 atx is the standard motherboard size and is used in multiple case sizes manly full towers, mid towers, and compact towers. Anything smaller than a mid tower this would be a bad case for the cooler.

[@Intelwinsbigly]

@Ops Blac Honestly, laying a computer on it's side has always been the OG way of doing things.

[@dsprojectplutonium]

The "im going to snap one day" was so real. i could hear the sadness and the feeling of forfeit

[@Tiwack01]

With this tech horizontal cases could be making a comeback. It'd certainly be cool to build them into desks/furniture and have that become more accessible to consumers.

[@DTpower_GER]

Yeah, I got an old Thermaltake V21 and having no GPU sag and limitless CPU cooler space is amazing. But cable management is a nightmare.

[@Aquatarkus96]

@@DTpower_GER Cable management and horizontal mono are both big parts of why I like my HAF xb evo case.

[@pendrachken]

Speaking of exotics, I'd like to see what happens when you use a traditional water loop, but use the stuff that auto racers use in the loop. Even using plain water + "water wetter" that most auto stores carry, at least in the U.S., can see up to 20-30F of additional cooling capacity *for an entire 8 cylinder engine*. It actually does help when your cooling capacity is right on the edge or slightly less than your thermal power generation. It would be interesting to see what it could do in a PC cooling loop.

[@NickChamberlain980]

At what point do Intel/AMD start shipping CPUs labeled as requiring custom watercooling? I'll wait to see what Ryzen 7000 is like but props to AMD on keeping things reasonable with 65w and 105w TDPs for AM4

[@megachonk9440]

Have you seen the cooler that Intel ships with a 12900K? They don't care at all, you're on your own to figure out how to cool it.

[@spiritof7624]

@@megachonk9440 let's be honest no normy is buying a 12900k they would do better by ditching the provided cooler

[@einsteinx2]

AMD already has with Threadripper (though there are air coolers that work)

[@jan-lukas]

@@einsteinx2 threadripper is a workstation CPU, which are a completely different category, but yes

[@Condor1970]

I've had friends use exclusively water coolers. They eventually have problems, and the cost is pretty high. Unless you're into serious overclocking, a decent vertical air cooler is more than enough cooling, runs quieter, and far more reliable in the long term.

[@djjoey0812]

So what about the orientation of the cooler if that's so important then why did you not test it in a actual standing case? Would that make a difference? If so by how much? And also heat from other components so test in a actual case please

[@stark0ss712]

He literally said in the video why he didn't.

[@blastermanr6359]

The thing wouldn't work in an upright case.

[@Sinosius]

@@blastermanr6359 But in the short clip of the video with splave they showed a standing PC with the cooler?!

[@djjoey0812]

@@stark0ss712 he mentions about it being in a case talking about other components, but he never explains why they didn't test it in a real case

[@djjoey0812]

@@Sinosius they did a while video with it standing, it's made to be in a case like all parts

[@an3k]

I want two things from Intel (and AMD). 1) Sell a KB version of their high-end CPUs and the B stands for "Bare die", so no IHS. 2) Make a much larger die so that we can cool it much easier. Guess why one can cool his 400 Watts 3090 much easier than a 250-ish Watts 12900K ... because of these two reasons.

[@greggilliam2nd]

I think a fun video would be to look into how good of a computer they would have had to have at the Stamford branch to run Call of Duty 2 as well as they were in that episode of The Office at the time of filming. I’ve always thought that it was unrealistic that a word processing computer could run a AAA title at the time.

[@solaryard5351]

saaaaaaaaaame

[@Dead_Goat]

Call of duty 2 was not intensive to the hardware required by offices. Games developers used to actually try to optimize their games for AAA titles. CPU SPEED: 1.4 GHz (Pentium) or 1700+ (Athlon) RAM: 256 MB.

[@Dead_Goat]

Call of duty 2 was not intensive to the hardware required by offices. Games developers used to actually try to optimize their games for AAA titles. CPU SPEED: 1.4 GHz (Pentium) or 1700+ (Athlon) RAM: 256 MB. VIDEO CARD: 3D Hardware accelerated card required - 100% DirectX 9.0c compatible 64 MB (NVIDIA GeForce3+ /ATI Radeon 8500+)

[@icy2275]

ive noticed recently that every video linus gets is just 1.2million dedicated fans, nobody else, its always abt that many viewers

[@DWVoid0321]

Actually looking forward to some "CPU card" that has a factory direct die & VRM cooling integrated. I mean if the GPUs can cool 300W with air with a double slot cooler, there is no reason that CPUs cannot do so, given they have much more room to work with on the motherboard.

[@0x8badf00d]

That was a thing in the 90's. Slot 1 for Intel.

[@Frizzy9000]

It's a really cool idea. One big drawback though is latency and stability. If you think about 1st gen NVMe drives vs modern PCI-e 4.0 drives, one reason they can transfer so fast is they are coming right of the CPU lanes both physically and architecturally (In general, yes there are other factors). TL;DR now that CPUs have gotten so fast, like many pieces of high end tech they are sensitive to even small changes in bus length and interconnects. Even adding a quarter inch when thinking about max turbo speeds would add possibly an order of magnitude or more of latency etc.

[@DWVoid0321]

@@Frizzy9000 Thanks for the reply. The solution that I am picturing in my mind is similar to NVIDIA’s SXM socket. Card mounted flat on the board with power delivery integrate and everything else passed through some large connectors. It would be a worse overclocker due to the additional connector, but considering the humongous power draw difference between low and high end chips (65W vs 300W), and the thermal barrier that they are hitting now without high-flow custom loops or LN2, I think it might be a worthy tradeoff.

[@vardhanpatil5222]

Have you heard of NUC Compute element, It seems to be like what you are talking about.

[@potatoe4221]

Man, are you really suggesting we go full circle with technology?

[@AliComputering]

Use Arctic liquid Freezer II AIOs , they have thick Radiators (38mm vs 27mm of others), 420 version can tame the beast 12900KS far better (my personal experience with a lot of coolers)

[@willgallatin2802]

I see IceGiant has farmed out initial testing to Linus. If a PC product can survive a week with him, it's a good product for John Doe general public. Linus thanks for the fair warning about orientation on this cooler. It will save people like me from making a mistake.

[@gfgrimm]

except he broke a fan cable, so...

[@willgallatin2802]

@@gfgrimm Precisely! Now they know what to work on in the next version.

[@mrgee9430]

I think it's fair to say, all cooling methods nowadays uses some mix of fluid, vapor and air cooling. Heatpipes/vapor chamber: water fluid/vapor cycling. Radiators liquid to air. Finstacks: air to cool the heatpipes. They all use metal as the medium to tranfer heat between interfaces.

[@Hivemind_Sponsored_]

📩📩👆

[@billcollector3379]

Perhaps, we should make the processor a little larger now, now that we know the support chips are not prone to heat.

[@jerryvessels5263]

Love watching up comming tech to help with cooling, but it got me wondering about old tech for OC cooling. Like Ultra ChillTec Thermo Electric CPU Cooler (peltier coolers). They use to do the job pretty good when system were under high loads. Wonder why it died off...

[@josiah16]

but linus, you mentioned gravity is being used in that cooler. You ran your testbench flat, rather than a conventional standing orientation. Would that matter?

[@sibis4608]

The Thermosiphon can be mounted in tower cases also as they showed in the older video, with a few pictures in here too. However, it should be mounted in a particular orientation is what I'm aware of.

[@ops5161]

Out of everyone who could sponsor this video I did NOT think War Thunder would sponsor a video about "hey don't watercool ur pc"

[@judai250]

That’s interesting, the 360mm AIO performed nearly identical to the IceGiant, he kind of brushed over that very fast. But the numbers were virtually identical. I find this video actually even more assuring for AIOs given their advantages with appearance. AIOs look way nicer (most of the time), don't cover up any other components with RGB, you can ship a PC with an AIO installed, and it runs nearly identical to the best fan cooler (the 360 mm AIO). For me that makes AIOs the overall winner! Also, the fan cooler and AIO were both tested on a open test bench and not inside a pc where there is far more hot air to deal with. This means that the fan cooler does not pull cold air as easily since it would be in a closed environment. I don’t think the AIO gets any real benefit from being tested on an open test bench. Meaning that if both were tested in a PC, the 360 mm AIO might perform exactly the same or even better since the fan cooler would surely perform worst. I wonder if that’s why he didn’t test in an actual PC….

[@Martycrane]

I’ve always been sceptical of LTT’s air cooler numbers. Seem way too good to be true, especially with GN testing air coolers of all different shapes and sizes under lab conditions and they are always at the bottom of the charts. Something doesn’t add up with the way they are testing, and it’s been like this for years. It’s why I never base purchasing decisions on LTT videos.

[@kevinwells9751]

@@Martycrane Open air test benches certainly change things for air coolers more than water coolers since for radiators they can (in the right configuration) get mostly fresh air even in a case whereas air coolers always have to fight with other components to get cool air

[@mpauls85]

@@Martycrane Well, testing air coolers on an open test bench is basically bs. The big advantage of water cooling is that you can dump the hot air directly out of the case.

[@judai250]

@@Martycrane agreed, I don’t know how some people are dismissing the test bench aspect of this. Particularly when an AIO doesn’t, for the most part, gain an advantage like the fan cooler would. If the fan was inside an actual build where there is a lot more heat to deal with, then maybe the AIO 360mm even wins! I don’t think the AiO gets the same kind of advantage from being used on a test bench.

[@judai250]

@@kevinwells9751 I wonder if they chose to test in an open test bench for this reason. I mean think about it, if the 360mm AIO barely lost to the fan cooler in an open test bench, imagine in a PC with a bunch of hot air surrounding it. Sounds like the AIO would actually win or at the very least perform exactly the same as the fan. Makes you wonder if he tested open test bench for this reason..

[@MarkElf2204]

I have a custom loop for my 3700X with 2 360 rads (eventually a 4070 or 4080 too) and would rather go with an air cooler if I had the option to do it again. It looks cool but maintenance + $20 every 6-12 months is a pain in the butt compared to just fanning out the PC of dust.

[@gamebuster800]

Air coolers are so much noisier though... I have a custom loop for a 5950X and 2080TI with only 3x 120mm (1x 360 rad) and my PC is near silent while gaming. The thermal mass helps with peaks and dips. I slighty offset the RPM of each fan to reduce noise. (i.e. one spins at 900 RPM, next at 1100, etc)

[@toto29620]

I have run water loop for 6 years and more without replacing the coolant. You don't loose a ton of performance, just open the waterblock when you upgrade the cpu to clean the builup on the water jet plates.

[@AdrianOkay]

@@gamebuster800 Set fans to 100%, put headphones on, chad gaming

[@Lyvarious]

Lower TDP and improving performance while keeping within the same power spec SHOULD be the priority for these manufacturers. Expecting cooling solutions to somehow keep up when thermodynamics can only go so far is weirdly juvenile

[@NoFrameHell]

Just move to Siberia, bruh.

[@AdrianOkay]

People just take a look at synthethic benchmarks of laptops running in syberia and buy without a second thought

[@NoFrameHell]

@@AdrianOkay That's the spirit! It's amusing how tech youtubers think synthetic benchmarks reflect in any way a comparable experience to most customers use of their hardware. Truly, they live in a fringe bubble or so it seems

[@Stefano18Caruso]

Jake would indeed be a cool grandmother that reads you awesome bedtime stories.

[@the7110]

Thanks~~~~

[@electrified0]

I've seen many cases outperform open air test benches on thermals since a good fan setup ensures you're pulling in room temperature air and blowing away hot air instead of recycling the same hot air that builds up around the test bench. Anyone buying an i9 should also be getting a good enough case where this is true.

[@Starfals]

My friends all had leaks in the PC cases, resulting in... a lot of damage. I won't ever risk that. Air cooling for life! If it's not good enough, then the CPU is not good enough. I'll never buy a processor that also works as an oven.

[@originals4614]

Curious... what's your ideal CPU at the moment, and what are you currently running?

[@CyPhaSaRin]

I'm the same, only it took one time seeing green shit piss all over a motherboard at a public land party for me to say never fkn ever. Never have never will, last PC lasted me..oh it's still going, 2012 hardware, mobo and CPU still going strong, upgraded video twice, first a new amd 2gb in 2013 for GTA, and a nvid 960 3gb in 2020. Everything else is as it has been for a decade.. might be slow by some standard now, but I'm not hurting myself by sticking back a few gen or tech eras at all.

[@RWDtech]

Go with the 5800X 3D if it's in your budget

[@Starfals]

@@originals4614 Thats a hard question to answer (about what I want) I do want something fast for video editing, but at the same time... I don't want it to be above 80C. From what I see, that's probably not going to happen anytime soon. They keep pushing everything to be hotter and more energy draining (GPU's/CPU's) P.s. I'm about to get an upgrade, end of this year. I have i5-2500k. Old and slow in 2022, but at least it doesn't go above 60C. My video card is 2070 ti, also does not go above 70. Temps above 80 seem crazy to me, even if they are perfectly fine. My friend has a CPU that hits 90-95 a lot... and his room is like a boiler closet LOL. I don't want to get a performance boost and make my life a living hell. I'm willing to spend extra money on cooling, but most people think even the best wont be enough (air cooling)

[@MachineSanto]

Never happened to me in 6 years

[@Beer_Wolf]

Planning to build a new high end PC (4090, i9 13900, 32GB DDR5 5600mhz), and I've opted to go with Air Cooling with AIO over Water cooling. Just paranoid of leakage on an expensive rig, that and I'm lazy to do the maintenance required. 😋

[@EpicBenjo]

LOL The editing of this video is top notch lmao

[@graealex]

It is very clear that vapor-chamber cooling is going to be the future for high-performance desktop PCs.

[@Valkirth]

@Ops Blac that is my issue, I dislike strapping something that beefy to a motherboard.

[@TheBlackSpartan103]

@Ops Blac yeah there needs to be a better weight support. I always worry about bigger GPUs bending the motherboard

[@MrMoon-hy6pn]

Unless they figure out a way to make it work in more orientations than "up right", I doubt it. Who knows perhaps the rise of arm/risc-v desktop cpus will bring down power usage to reasonable levels making this unnecessary.

[@progste]

Ora maybe choosing CPUs with more sensible thermals.

[@XMansive]

@@Valkirth Might as well get rid of the gpu then

[@Pr0fPyr0]

Would love to see smaller versions of these for lower TDP CPU's

[@Pr0fPyr0]

@Defective Degenerate maybe but if its priced the same as a 120mm or 240mm AIO that would make things very interesting

[@Pr0fPyr0]

​@Defective Degenerate my 3600 with a u12s would disagree , I had to undervolt it just to keep its spikes closer to mid 70's under gaming loads. Is it enough and within spec , sure, but it would be nice to have water cooling performance without water.

[@jamesshelton308]

I think it was IBM that was talking about how since we are starting to reach the limits of what can be manufactured (TSMC has already announced they are starting to work on 2nm platforms), the big push in the near future will be for efficiency. Who can draw that performance out for less power and heat wastage. I sincerely hope this is how the future will be, as the 500 W heaters in our rooms are getting old.

[@111ch1a1d111]

I wonder if a future version could look like an AIO, with flexible tubing and a top mounted radiator. Would make installation much easier and reduce torque on the socket. I also wonder if higher watt components will lead to fully integrated cases with built in cooling (not just preassembled, but fully integrated, with the radiators and tubing built into the structure, allowing a loop that feeds radiators on more sides of the case, something custom loops can do, but without all the labor and specialized tools.

[@dexgaming6394]

They should make a version of the Icegiant cooler that has Noctua fans

[@kozygeorg]

You can add them yourself. Fans are swappable

[@ChrysoliteTwo]

Thereby making it 50% more expensive kek

[@jlirving]

I ran two 480 80 mm radiators in my custom WC loop however for the last few years I've felt like it was a little unnecessary. Preferring the simplicity of air cooled CPUs and GPUs. Also the price of GPUs in general made buying the waterblock and backplate even more unappealing. This is form someone who has we watercooled and ran multi GPU configs for the better part of the last decade.

[@bco1981]

Finallly somebody mentions this insane power use nextgen will use. I'm done with this, recently replaced 5800x3d with 12600 non-k. Basically same performance just a lot less hot. Yes, I had the proshiphon. I use a arctic liquid freezer II 240 with the 12600, and have seen max 67C on one core. When a gpu that has equal performance to my 3080ti has up 250 watt tdp, i'm "upgrading". Also 12600 is the top model without e-cores so works great on windows 10.

[@sanders4768]

I bought a ProSiphon Elite last year because Linus's video really hyped me up. This is yet one of the best purchase i've made in a few years. Sadly , it doesn't fit inside a "Hydra Desk"