MASOCHISM: PART 2

[@lexparsimoniae2107]

Fairbairn's attachment to the bad object, which you briefly mentioned in part 1, points to a similar mechanism. The abused child may become attached to the abusive parent in the permanent (and permanently futile) hope of finally receiving proper love and nourishment...

[@doncarveth]

Yes

[@faithevolution552]

In my experience, the child does confuse cruelty with love, as there is no other comparison, and in my family the cruelty and neglect were passed from one generation to yhe next generation...meaning that all of my relatives on both sides of my family, my siblings, and my cousins are all narcissists and psychopathic in one degree or another... Being mean is normal in my very large family...and being sensitive is called out and ridiculed...even to this day, and I'm 59 years old. Children learn that love is cruel and dismissive when they grow up with narcissistic or psychopathic parents.

[@doncarveth]

Thank you for contributing this and I’m sorry you’ve had to undergo this.

[@liamthompson9342]

Excellent point about intermittent reinforcement. That seems like a much better explanation.

[@doncarveth]

Maybe both?

[@betuldilangenc312]

Can you talk on sadism as well🙏

[@davidmaxwell448]

I'd appreciate this as well. Masochism is much more straightforward for me than sadism.

[@jonathonray6198]

Martha stark puts it well in her description of relentless hope: “this time will be different” if only I just keep going then one day…

[@dextercool]

Would love a Part 3 :)

[@doncarveth]

Part three is Bill Weathers, “use me up.“

[@user-lg9co3bp8u]

Thank you from Russia. Listening with big interest)

[@NoraJaneSoul]

From Russia double thanx!:)

[@doncarveth]

Thanks to both!

[@ПОЧИНЮКУКУХУ]

​@@doncarvethI will triple this Russian company 🤝 Greatful for your videos 🙌

[@TheoReadsTooMuch]

First of all, to echo the sentiments of many other commenters, thank you for making all of these videos and sharing your insights with us! I have a question: In the first video, you mentioned that Berliner believes the curative process comes about through the analysis of the masochist's own identification with the aggressor, and how this is acted out in the masochist's relationships. When this phase of the analysis is reached, how do you prevent the masochist from absorbing/distorting the interpretation into a sense of "I act harmfully, and thus I'm a bad person and ought to suffer for it", perpetuating the masochistic cycle? I suppose there'd be no easy answer, but it's interesting to think about. I imagine the analysis of a masochistic individual could end up being quite lengthy, and feature many relapses/regressions.

[@doncarveth]

By that point in the analysis, the masochist will understand that the analyst is on his side, is not moralistic or condemning. Then the analyst can say “I know you will likely hear what I am saying as a criticism, and you may even hear what I am saying now as a criticism, because you hear everything is a criticism, and that’s not a criticism!“ This needs to be repeated many times.

[@kimluzzi5203]

Your videos and like finding gold so thank you. Regarding moral masochism, I have a patient who struggles with this and she is also from an area in the US and family where woman are more submissive (and had a depressed mom and alcoholic father). She knows she picks men where she can hardly get a drop of "blood" from him and she placates him and her superego but the repetition continues. Any further guidance on working with these patients, especially when insight isn't enough to create change?

[@doncarveth]

Did you go on to masochism part three? Use me up? Sometimes there is a kind of devotion that seems irrational. These things are often more complex than we can see.

[@kimluzzi5203]

@@doncarveth Thanks so much for your response and I didn't realize there is a part 3 and will check it out ASAP.

[@webb8846]

When you speak of post PhD depression my only issue with that is most of a person's positive emotion if I'm not mistaken is goal-oriented pursuit so you enjoy striving for the PhD but once you get it the goal is complete and that would lead to some sort of depression or feeling of emptiness I don't see how that would be considered moral masochism

[@doncarveth]

No, that is not it. The moral masochism comes from the unconscious fantasy that success is harmful to someone, a father or brother perhaps or mother or sister. The fantasy is that you have achieved success at someone else’s expense. You have put yourself up in there for someone else is put down. Unconscious fantasy.

[@webb8846]

@@doncarveth okay, yes I understand what you're saying now

[@Xhayl]

You have helped me dig deeper into my attachment style based on your two videos on Masochism. Namely attaching oneself to unobtainable objects. I could see the pattern but never thought of it as a form of self inflicting pain. Thank you - it was a change of perspective which was needed. Thank you for sharing your knowledge

[@doncarveth]

Hayley, I’m glad it was of help to you.

[@defaultuser7777]

So true

[@JM-xk3xs]

Interesting. I suppose if there's no water anywhere, you're not going to refuse a drop every now and again.

[@doncarveth]

Right

[@JoshBarzell]

It makes me think of something you said on the IPA podcast, about reparative guilt. When you were getting your PhD, how could you have gone from PS guilt, to D guilt? Was there any D guilt, to feel?

[@doncarveth]

There probably was, rivalry with my father, the aggression what goes on between father and son. Although I was pretty good to him, I must say. I was there for him when he needed me

[@JoshBarzell]

@@doncarveth what about the D guilt that is associated with one’s declining of a good moral environment? The masochist will refuse a healthy environment, like an anorexic refusing food. A D guilt could arise from this, too.

[@doncarveth]

@@JoshBarzell yes indeed

[@richardprice9730]

Personal update and a few thoughts on "masochism" Thank you took notes on your first video and have just listened to the second , quote Berliner will read , unfortunately my eyesight was affected by cycling accidents trauma and may not be able to take up offer of gifted car to start mental health work , but can go back to cycling otherwise am very well and fit . Whilst my introductory zoom with Severenside psychoanalytic institute went well the cost is totally prohibitive about £10,000 for 4 years plus fees for on going analysis furthering my suspicion this heavily biased monetarism ( profiteering) is fostering a form of elitism and phony values are now corrupting free thinking , "we" teach etc so theories remain unquestioned ,it is totally disappointing for me as i feel vocationally drawn to analysis . The leap between psychic health and spirituality is too great to bridge without analysis in my opinion our childhood ( even in utero) experience is totally formative in ego formation , where rigidity and defensive personality patterns were first inaugurated . Masochism seems to be at the very root of social control throughout the ages , it is aggression or stifled anger turned against the self via a fossilized self ideal ( narcissistic ) as Freud said driven by libidinal energies and drives an inability to reflect and stand back rather adopt as Klein might say the "defeatist" depressive position giving into the views or subtle prohibition of the analyst , the unacceptable-ness of wishes , fantasies even the voiced desire to act them out . This may trigger a cascade of negative feelings and anxiety in the face of the deeper fear ie the loss of love , holding , not getting needs met or even abuse , again perhaps on a deeper level deathe itself ie at shock of being abandoned in a cot or at birth , left alone vulnerable and unable to meet needs as a small child baby . Subsequently the child or adult caves in to pressure which is the internalized self perceived unresponsive object , this is felt as "masochism and projected out as the desire to harm sadism" muddled love as hate you talk about . These are my thoughts just of the bat , the classic Berne triangle of V...i.c.t.i.m ( preferred ) - Persecutor - Rescuer played out endlessly in religious institutes , in organizations , in any circumstances where people seem to be vying for dominance (Oedipal triads ) , the young or even old non conformists must not be allowed to rock the boat , they must be pressured or moved into the "masochistic position" then they are harmless or no longer perceived as a threat to societal hierarchies . The feeling i think is indistinct depression low energy apathy , the deeper masochism or self hostility maybe so automatic and early as to be impossible all most to get a handle on , it is so culturally pervasive like "neurosis" itself it seems all most normal , shut up and do as you're told ! You have no right to be angry with me ! Stop doing that or else ! All-most ad nauseam triggering a masochistic s reactive form of somatized incurving or regressive defensive foetoid response , i can all most hear myself say sorry , sorry for what ?

[@alysrowe2734]

I don't really understand why the drive and object-relations perspectives are mutually-exclusive here. Aren't they simply two levels of the same explanation? As in: the sadism of the internalised sadistic object can only be the individual's own sadism directed towards the self through the mediation of the object. Otherwise what propels the relation to the object?

[@doncarveth]

You appear to leave out of consideration the sadism of the object that is then internalized.

[@alysrowe2734]

@@doncarveth Not at all. But one cannot literally take another's drives or feelings into oneself, one can (surely) only model the sadism of the object because of one's own sadism, and so my question is: is it not that the internalisation of the object-relation is simply the means by which the relationship to the drive is organised, and so both explanations are true, but at different levels? The alternative would seem to be intolerably Rousseauan for psychoanalysis: that the sadism of the object inserts the capacity for sadism into the infant who previously lacked any such capacity.

[@doncarveth]

I think your apriori commitment to a Hobbesian/Freudian innate depravity assumption causes you to attribute sadism to the infant. The infant is programmed to receive love. In the face of non.love it can reaxt with aggression, live turned ti hate, but this is no primary sadism.

[@alysrowe2734]

@@doncarveth well that answers my question anyway, thank you

[@mpconsta4848]

I escaped the post-PhD depression by starting another PhD :)

[@doncarveth]

LOL

[@cartermusic2020]

Dr. Carveth I have been binging on all of the blood from your KZbin stone and I truly must have more. 😂 I’d love to see a lecture on literally every thought you’ve ever had on the superego, but since that is unlikely here are some of my specific curiosities: - exactly what it is and what it is comprised of (what made it what it is) - each of the generalizations/archetypes you see and often mention: puritanical, sadistic, moralistic, etc -> obviously with some thought/behavioral manifestations or the effect of each - why the superego wants us to be in pain (the son of a bitch! haha kidding) and can we work with it to please PLEASE make it STOP 😅 - is this what people often refer to now as the “inner critic” - I know you have videos about the superego vs the conscience, will have to watch again, but if there is some important relation that is fitting would of course need to know - and anything else you know I need to know but I don’t know I need to know it yet Please take us to the superego buffet!

[@doncarveth]

That buffet is contained in my three books, and all my videos. The latest book especially.

[@cartermusic2020]

@@doncarveth great! Thank you!!

[@NewHope120]

I was fascinated by the connection you made between procrastination and masochism, so it got me wondering: do you think there could be such a thing as a general theory of procrastination or is it merely a symptom? Following the former suggestion, one could perhaps think of the unreliable objects and eluding signifiers of digital space, which have dramatically exacerbated our frustration thresholds while providing an overabundance of satisfactions. There was once a time when boredom was an option. Thank you for your communist work.

[@doncarveth]

I think we might be able to work out something like a general theory of procrastination. I do believe it is a refined form of self torture.

[@davidnjohn]

Isn’t Sexual Masochisim about Sadism? ie derived from the Libidinal trend and thus about pleasure, differs from Moral Masochism which is about punishment without pleasure.

[@doncarveth]

Yes, my first video addresses the work of Berliner, who makes this distinction clear

[@MAN6717]

Dr. Carveth, how could a psychoanalytic interpretation, which deal with unconsciousness materials, be replaced with behavioral mechanisms that is processed at conscious level. I sense Berliners interpretation is closer to the truth. Thank you for this new lecture!