Masochism

[@sooo145]

❤My eyes are now tearing up with joy. I wish I could kiss your head now. I am very, very grateful to you. I searched a lot for this topic, and because I am an Arab, I did not find anyone who talked about it in such wonderful detail. Thank you, Oh great man

[@liamthompson9342]

This lecture is unbelievably helpful to me thank you

[@doncarveth]

Most welcome

[@SuperAwesomeElliot]

As a seeker and as a scholar, I cannot express how much your content means to me. Thank you, Dr. Carveth. I primarily study philosophy and religion, and had never gotten around to engaging with psychoanalysis until very recently. I only wish I’d started studying it sooner, as there is so much overlap that much of this really feels rather intuitive. This field provides, for me, a much-needed lens for engaging with the suffering of myself and the suffering of others. I’d been looking for a way to better understand masochism for so long, and was familiar with Freud’s thought on the matter, but it is such a joy to discover that there really has been considerable work done in this regard

[@doncarveth]

I am very glad to know you have found this path.

[@ukasznowicki3382]

Professor Carveth, than you very much for bringing this topic, which is close to my personal experience and challenges which I have been going though during my own psychoanalysis process. I feel already sorrow thinking about all other children, who might need to develop similar characterological traits or already are struggling with their own heavy childchood legacy. I wish you all the best and please take care! Best warms from Wroclaw (Poland).

[@doncarveth]

Thank you.

[@elnazyaghoobi8426]

Thanks a lot Professor, A great presentation as always Every time I learn something new from you.

[@doncarveth]

Thank you

[@d.nakamura9579]

This is such a great channel. Not only is the content superb, but the comments section is full of impressive, deeply insightful thoughts on the matter from a variety of viewers.

[@doncarveth]

Thanks

[@raquelchapdelaine2271]

Hello Don! So happy to see your two new videos on masochism. As always so enlightening! And the related expression “the psychology of ‘I would never want to belong to a club that would take me as a member’” was priceless! Thank you!

[@PN.mod20]

There's an interesting pdf chapter online by Nancy McWilliams phd from her book. The chapter titled is Masochistic (Self-Defeating) Personality Disorder. Easy to find online. The book is Psychoanalytic Analysis.

[@mr.anindyabanerjee9905]

Thanks a bunch Prof. Carveth for giving such an amazing & elaborate Psychoanalytic insight into the concept of Masochism, which apparently seems easy to many😇. My Regards🙏🙏

[@doncarveth]

Thank you

[@florinaoprea]

Generous, thank you ⭐️🙏🏻

[@erby1kabogey9]

Always a pleasure to get a new post. Many thx!

[@doncarveth]

Most welcome

[@SM-zc1ok]

Great video . Thank you.

[@jakecarlo9950]

Such a helpful and insightful presentation professor, thank you very much for sharing this.

[@doncarveth]

Most welcome

[@Helalouny]

Professor Carveth, thank you so much for your lessons! I just finished to listen all the videos from your KZbin cannal, it took me one year and three months, I feel very enriched and grateful. It give me insipration and insight. I am a rogerian psychoterapist, after listening your lessons I have desire to come into psychoanalytic training. But I am not young any more, so I have to consider it...... Take care, greetigs from Prague!

[@irajesmaeilpourghoochani413]

Just brilliant

[@ПОЧИНЮКУКУХУ]

That's what I was doing. I would not notice how it's not nurturing and reciprocal. It was so automatic. I would not notice how a person do not notice or disrespect me and how much of hidden frustration and desperation and fatigue is behind what feels ok to me.

[@martinhodgson1996]

Finally something that actually speaks truth to my situation. Aggression turned back at the self. In my first decade of life my twin sister used to manipulate my father against me. Which turned him into a weapon. She was from a very early age jealous of me for being born male. She expressed a strong desire to be male and envied my father's focus on me. So she used to create false situations to manipulate him to hurt me. One example of this was to sneak out of her bedroom at night and severely damage and deface wooden surfaces or furniture. By carving my initials in the wooden surfaces. Making deep gorges repeatedly. Till the whole thing was just ruined. Like my father's grand desk in his study. Sadly he really fell for it. Never questioned why it didn't stop even though he would pull me out of bed with such force. I would be awakened by my skull slamming the floor. Flurry punch me whilst dragging me to the site of the newly damaged furniture or door frame etc. She was always instantly present to watch me be strangled, beat, humiliated, scorned. This went on for years. It destroyed both my parents opinion of me. There was many other things she did to achieve similar things. I was aware obviously that none of it was me. My twin essentially has developed into a sadist. She has absolutely no care for me at all. This made me grow up with an intense sense of injustice, anger and hatred towards everyone. The way she had taken over my life by preventing me from forming relationships and being able to influence my life positively with my own character and personhood. She had turned my life into an abusive nightmare. I couldn't salvage or influence. I couldn't stop her, no point being violent to her. She was hiding behind the protection of my parents. Who had become convinced it was me. I couldn't express my anger sadly I turned the anger inward. In a strange type of infolding of the mind. It's taken me along time through breakdowns, mental health problems and a ruined life. That I myself have sabotaged. Through inverting the anger and making things worse. By turning to the wrong things to try and rescue myself from my own destruction. Namely different spiritual and religious systems. Which only made me more guilt ridden and self hating. It isn't remotely about pleasure in pain. There is no pleasure. I am like my own sponge that soaks up the pain and anger to avoid putting it on who deserve it. Only in the last year have I started to understand the ruin of my personhood.

[@doncarveth]

Wow. Quite a story. But finally it sounds as if you are on the path to health. Was it psychotherapy or Psychoanalysis that helped you or is helping you?

[@jakecarlo9950]

@15:43 Any time Groucho Marx enters into the analysis you know you’re on the right track. I also think that at this point the explicitly social and even political entanglements of our lives enter onto the scene. It’s worth noting how the rejection of the acceptance that is actually so freely available to both the sadistic and the masochistic subjects feeds into striving and accumulative behavior that is socially rewarded particularly in a capitalist social formation.

[@pamlalol]

im just now realizing that ive been masochistic to all my relationships and always wanted a terrible power structure where there shouldnt be one. thank you professor. im going to see therapy over this. you described me to a T.

[@carashoupi]

Thank you. I’m going to read my Benno Rosenberg (in French) this afternoon...

[@kerrycosato]

🎩 👁👁 👃🏻 👄 A willingness to suffer and sacrifice for the greater good or to minimise the probability of other more concerning harms is a sign of a person who has been raised in a dysfunctional family system. I am a student of psychotherapy and have, out of necessity, studied psychology and behaviour since realising my parents as monsters at 4. I see masochism in a functional sense in a family systems context both of which can be overcome. I have enjoyed your presentations and insight immensely so happy to have caught this most recent upload. Having lived through this as an unwanted child I see it as one of many artefacts of poor parenting which was significantly diminished after I developed self compassion and the practice of being on my side and being quick to identify anyone who is essentially asking me not to be on my own side. It is super confusing as it is so difficult to break through this internalised experience of implicit wrongness and the false sense of responsibility that attends this. For any other readers who have had any experience of this I also believe therapeutic support, agency and self love as imperative to healing.

[@doncarveth]

Yes, thank you.

[@doncarveth]

Hold on, I didn’t catch that first sentence. I can’t agree. Things are more complicated. We must distinguish between pathological self-sacrifice and the capacity for self sacrifice that is essential if one is to be, say, A parent or, at times, even a decent human being. The inability to self-sacrifice is a pathology: narcissism.

[@kerrycosato]

@@doncarveth yes I was writing in terms of a compulsive reflexive self sacrifice meaning pathological not the discerning altruism to be a healthy contributing member of community or family which is an important aspect of thriving. Important delineation and reminds me there of the positive expression of self sacrifice being ultimately and inclusively beneficial

[@doncarveth]

Right

[@sigmsctt8130]

@@doncarveth Thank you both, SO much! Very deeply insightFULL.《♡》

[@jakecarlo9950]

@11:50 - have to agree with the suspicion concerning any attribution of marked personality disorientation to “natural“ variation, or “inborn” traits. Such resort to biologism seems to be a retreat from the deep ambiguities of navigating the social formation of the self. I am reminded again of a point made by Robert Sapolsky, that the distinguishing feature of human biology is its creation of organisms that cannot be determined or reduced to their biology.

[@doncarveth]

Yes

[@carashoupi]

OK - on a roll here- Rosenberg also says that Moral Masochism can act as a barrier to depressive feelings of loss - in that, since it bypasses an Oedipal castrating function of guilt, it speaks to a homo-erotic way of functioning - one becomes one’s own all-powerful object that can’t be lost. This can indicate a structural fragility - which you speak to. When I hear my obsessional-neurotic patients, they complain that they inflict pain upon themselves, and it’s *painful* - and most of them are capable of naming the satisfaction they can feel in this, however. The masochistic patients who deny the excitement they feel seem to be using the masochism to hold themselves narcissistically. Interesting in terms of differential diagnosis, and the different ways these patients organize their object relations and libido-seeking.

[@doncarveth]

I think it’s not so much a matter of Oedipal guilt as pre-Oedipal guilt and I’m not at all sure about the Homo-erotic.

[@sarvothamanbhimasenarao2263]

Your observation that the masochist who deny the excitement they feel seem to be using masochism to hold themselves narcissistically, is a potential sentence for research. Holding themselves narcissistically , is holding themselves in self love which in escalated states leads to self sex or masturbation which is excitement ridden. In my opinion the excitement is the medicine for the guilt and it may be difficult to bypass excitement. Another trait of the narcissist is to gaze at the mirror and confirm that he is OK , when the overwhelming waves of depression namely , I AM NOT OK are impinging on him.

[@jeffreywin584]

At 10:00 (approximately) you contrast an object relational view of narcissism with and object relational one. I wondered if you were changing topics and if I missed something. Can you elaborate on why you talked about narcissism after what preceded it (the formation of the hostile super-ego). Thank you. I very much enjoy your videos here.

[@doncarveth]

I think I said narcissism there when I meant to say masochism: not a drive theory but an object relations theory of masochism

[@jeffreywin584]

@@doncarveth I see. Thanks so much for your reply.

[@mirandawrites5151]

'We submitt to IT'; KIDNAPPED.

[@albertcervero9813]

It is very interesting what you say about that someone express their masochism in the family setting and other in the laboral... Some suggestion for this second group. I am a voracious reader 😂

[@Nobody-Nowhere]

Just what i was looking to get into more. In one of your class recordings you dismissed someone bridging up codependency. And its easy to understand why, its suchs a narrow definition that really offers no understanding. Much like in lot of modern psychology, where only the symptoms are observed and classified. Isint it so, that the mother when she sees the child who loves and seeks love, simply projects her own helpless self onto to the child, and becomes the teasing taunting object herself. That its the same masochistic dynamic in the mother, that creates it in the child. This would be also in the core of borderline personality organizations? Where narcissistic people seek to retain the position of the bad object, so they would not have to experience the helpless needy child side. While the borderline oscillates between these roles, and it seems if they are dealing with a bad object, they essentially become this person and by doing this avoid being the helpless child. This has been the most confusing thing about borderlines, how they seem to completely abandon themselves. Would this also be where the drive theory & object relations meet? That its the temperament of the child that defines what solution it choose to deal with this unbearable situation. For me, the understanding of how affect states are always internalized in pairs has been the most fascinating thing. Kernberg described it really well in his book about aggression. That we always learn and intoject both sides of the experience. While people like Mark Solms, define 7 core drives. I think its clear that humans do have core drives. What puzzles me about the man who played out the masochistic dynamic only in his professional life, where had he learned the required dynamic for his marriage? It must had come from somewhere? I think there must be some difference in cases like these, that the masochistic dynamic that is played out in the professional life, has different origins. Or was it the splitting that made it possible, that the splitting had salvaged the all good relationship that was then used in the marriage. Really fascinating and important subject i think. Reducing it into "codependency" does not really offer any insight.

[@doncarveth]

That’s helpful, thank you.

[@ZeroHappyCampers]

Thank you for this overview! You often mention the ‘cold, sadistic, rejecting’ object. But what about an overly devouring, enveloping, ‘too close’ object. Can that also lead to masochism, for example by then looking for an object that re-enacts a proximity that is felt as too close. Thanks

[@nin3755]

I am a masochist i was rejected by my mother from birth and my father was a violent drunk. I bite my nails to the quick and turn all my anger inwards . Sexual pain is about 5% of masochism. This is so true , the 95% is THIS

[@QwQw-g9e]

Please I want to respond me....Does masochism affect my life of job? I feel depressed when I accomplish something in my work, and I hope to work for others more than me.

[@plebeianmedia1080]

@@QwQw-g9e me too i cant believe how accurate all of this is.

[@QwQw-g9e]

@@plebeianmedia1080 I did not understand your reply..Do you agree with me or do you think that I am wrong?

[@MrFabregas089]

Hi, thank you for this video. I suffer from traits of masochistic PD and would like to know if you have any recommendations for how to get treatment for this. Do you think its important to see a therapist who has expertise in the area of masochistic personality structures?

[@doncarveth]

Yes, you should seek treatment from a psychoanalyst familiar with Freudian ideas regarding guilt, super ego and self punishment.

[@michalroth7839]

Thank you so much prof. For your generous. I would like to ask what about the possibility for treatment?

[@doncarveth]

Psychoanalysis

[@carashoupi]

So Rosenberg talks about how Masochism is the intrication of the life & death drives. He talks about how we invest objects with both of these instincts. In Freud’s second theory - he says that the goal of the life instinct is to link up to objects - the death instinct destroys these links. These are opposing forces with opposite goals. The goal of the life drive is to unify the libido (excitation) and self-preservation- Narcissism. In other words, (I haven’t read the Berliner) it doesn’t seem necessary to disintegrate object-relations theory with drive theory - Freud himself didn’t do this...

[@doncarveth]

Berliner goes out of his way to indicate he does not reject drive theory. He merely thinks it is not relevant to moral masochism. He also, I think rightly, dismisses the death instinct as a clinically irrelevant construct.

[@mpconsta4848]

You make an interesting distinction between the masochist and depressive, who both internalize a bad object, but while the former placates, the latter attacks the self. You then briefly talk of the obsessive who both placates and attacks the self. Could you elaborate on this? It would imply that the obsessive's presentation is generally more severe than the depressive/masochist's, which might be why Berliner thought the origins were more natural or drive-based (despite the heritability of obsessional disorders being ~50%, like most other psychological disorders).

[@doncarveth]

I think it would be too easy to say that the obsessional shows a greater degree of aggression or sadism because, after all some depressive’s commit suicide, a very aggressive act.

[@trevorfichtner3539]

wait he is saying the superego is caused by anger against yourself.... but i thought the superego was supposed to be the more ritchous side, and the ID was the more corrupt side that disreguards morals???? to me his description of the root of the superego makes more sense matching to the id, unless im confused.... well either way, now i am confused lol.

[@doncarveth]

Freud was very inconsistent with respect to the super ego. On one hand, it is anger turned on self, a sadistic inner attacker, and the goal of therapy is to “demolish” it. On the other hand in his sociological work, he describes it as something like a good cop, protecting us from a descent into barbarism. I don’t think he even realized he was in contradiction. The best part of his work describes the sadism of the super ego leading to self defeat, self sabotage, etc. The super ego is not at all a good conscience.

[@trevorfichtner3539]

@@doncarveth that's interesting I have never heard that before. It makes me reconsider what I understand of the model. I almost wonder if maybe the contradictory descriptions of the super ego are still the sane somehow... like perhaps he had described it as a justice character like a cop or judge or moraly upstanding, while also describing it as anger turned on self, because if you have anger against yourself, that might cause you to judge yourself more. Well idk, honestly I'm kinda confused what to think of this. The superego, id, and ego always reminded me of Yin yang. In concept that reguardless the character or point of view, there's always the opposites, but they must both exist to exist, that's why they are really both one. You are only one, and we kinda always have this internal war of what to think or do or feel of something, as we naturally get caught up with this dualistic mindset, thinking everything is right or wrong, or whatever it may be. But is it wrong when a lion kills a Giselle? We'll certainly for the Giselle but it's good for the lion. And without your enemy or competition you have no drive to be the best at what you do. Anyway, the ego has to choose or negotiate the 2 sides and attempt to balance as best as possible. So i the ego would be like the yin yang as a whole... or at least that how I kinda interprete it I guess. But idk. What do u think of these interpretations?

[@webb8846]

I love psychoanalysis but one thing that it seems for me at least is there's not a lot of empirical data to back up the psychoanalytic theories

[@doncarveth]

There are various meanings of the word empirical. Check out what philosophers have to say about the different varieties of empiricism other than positivism.

[@plebeianmedia1080]

my childhood was pretty good. ill bet its circumcision that does this to people

[@Mabtw_662]

Then what about women having this ??

[@nancybartley4610]

If it starts early in life with primary caregivers, it is attributed to both parents or the mother who is usually more involved with the earliest months?

[@doncarveth]

Whoever is the primary caretaker, mother or father or both

[@QwQw-g9e]

​@@doncarveth Please I want to respond me...Does masochism affect my life of job? I feel depressed when I accomplish something in my work, and I hope to work for others more than me.

[@doncarveth]

@@QwQw-g9e possibly

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Wouldn't these dynamics be the basis of a co-dependent relationship?

[@doncarveth]

Yes

[@kirstinstrand6292]

My Freudian analyst diagnosed me as having an anxiety neurosis. My mother was a Delusional Christian who drove all her children away from her, and each other. Being the youngest, I was the scapegoat. I left the church in my early 20s. I believe most families are dysfunctional. Many Christians are authoritarian, passed down generationally, at least in the midwest. When I needed another analysis I began examining family dynamics, starting with my parents relationship to each other. Once I understood these family issues between everyone, most mental heath issues - depression, anxiety fell away from me. @@doncarveth

[@5036100ful]

I wonder, can we fill loved by people who jast listen, as in actual theraphy.

[@doncarveth]

It is a good question. Depends on what we mean by love. I think one can feel profoundly excepted. Perhaps this is a form of agape.

[@5036100ful]

Good! I anderstand from your replay you can feel the "good vibrations" that rans back on your chanel. (•‿•)

[@carashoupi]

I don’t think it makes sense to say that « Moral Masochism » isn’t sexualized - it’s extremely eroticized. Possibly I misunderstood your comments - but (to roughly quote/translate Rosenberg) - Moral Masochism is a re-sexualisation of a moral conflict and a failure of the Oedipal constellation to desexualize conflict through the superego. I think you’re absolutely correct that along the line children identify with a punishing object, but don’t you think the repetition factor speaks to the excitation and erotisation of the conflict - which Rosenberg has identified as something strangely « enlivening » - thus speaking to Masochism as something very much related to our life-instinct... Again, I am an analytic candidate and may be mixing apples and oranges as well as two languages and cultures, but since I planned on reading « Masochisme Mortifère et Mashochisme Gardien de la Vie » today anyway, I thought I’d join in with my thoughts.

[@doncarveth]

To distinguish sexual masochism from moral masochism is not to say there is no libidinization in the latter. There is a great difference between the explicit acting out in sexual masochism and the more implicit libidinal element in moral masochism. And you keep referring to the Oedipus complex which, following Berliner, is secondary to pre-Oedipal factors in moral masochism.

[@francescomanfredonia9095]

Significant slip of the tongue when at some point during the presentation you said narcissism instead of masochism?

[@doncarveth]

@@francescomanfredonia9095 not that significant since masochism is it self I think a type of narcissism although it may not look like it.

[@ПОЧИНЮКУКУХУ]

​@@doncarveth I agree

[@annenicholsonmbtp]

I’ve been calling it “emotional kink”

[@doncarveth]

Yeah but kink is often fun, where is masochism often isn’t

[@nin3755]

10:00

[@carashoupi]

So my last comment (below) may speak to the addictive quality of Masochism...

[@alina-sandracucu9331]

I wonder if there is any literature on the relationship between moral masochism and the characteriological depression in borderline personality disorder. I could not find anything beyond the usual interest in sexual masochism. (Even in this literature, the masochistic aspect is treated very superficially, mostly as part of a broader discussion on disinhibition and impulse control).

[@doncarveth]

Good point. Here is an opportunity for you to contribute.

[@Nobody-Nowhere]

This is something i was also interested, and as Kernberg describes the borderline organization as based in oral envy. I think you have more luck searching for a link between envy & masochism. Because that is what i think is the root of this masochistic dynamic, envy. The sexual side of borderlines i think is over represented, and is merely a tool for projective identification. Its not about what they want, exactly the opposite. The partner needs to be doing all the wanting and needing. Their primary goal is to become the envied object by means of splitting and projective identification. To get rid of the unbearable envy, and to experience it safely in the other. While maintaining omnipotent control over the other. I think what helps to understand this, is the concept of perversion and the triumphant reversal of the roles. In the more broader non sexual way described by Chasseguet-Smirgel. This of course does not work, and when the projection fails rage against the envied object arises. So to find borderlines masochism, look for it in their partners and in their relationships, that they inevitably destroy because they cant bear their own envy. So the object needs to be spoiled and dismissed. But i don't yet understand the dynamics of envy nearly well enough, here is something i came across when I was looking for links between envy & masochism: "In other words, envious processes initially appear instigated and aimed at something outside the self. This something is attractive and exciting at first. As it becomes intolerable, spoiling is almost reflexively aroused. The spoiling aim in envy seems to be an attack focused in this outward direction. The repercussion of this is the ultimate retroflection or turning backward upon the self of this spoiling destructiveness. Envy, in the end, results in aspects of the self (usually via the sadistic superego in which envy ultimately pools) destructively attacking and spoiling perceived aspects of goodness in the very self that generated the destructive spoiling in the first place. Envy is a reflexive verb that acts upon the actor. Its end product is the experience of masochism or self-suffering." This is from: Envy Theory: Perspectives on the Psychology of Envy By Frank John Ninivaggi That i apparently now need to read.

[@doncarveth]

@@Nobody-Nowhere but what causes the NV in the first place?

[@Nobody-Nowhere]

@@doncarveth I would think that ultimately, envy could be seen as the denial of separation. Envy is all about obliviating differences, as long as there is no differences there is no envy. This can be especially seen in the envy of the other gender. Chasseguet-Smirgel spoke in great details about the "anal sadist" who wishes to obliterate all differences, to turn everything into undifferentiated mass. I think this is the result of envy. Like how we have now people who want to say we should get rid of genders. Much like the child who believes his mother has a penis, because he is not yet ready to face the differences. It alleviates envy. Or men who like masculine strong women, and wish to turn their daughters into tomboys. Or women who are attracted to effeminate motherly men. And wish to turn their boys into feminine, and girls into more masculine, as they still carry the wish to be a boy from their childhood. Envy can be so clearly seen in children, who they demand this type of absolute fairness. How the cake must be cut with millimeter accuracy, so everyone gets the same. This demand for fairness is also present in borderlines. One day my niece was visiting and she was doing some craft work, needed scissors so i gave her my big scissors. And showed her how cool they were, as i had just bought these japanese utility scissors that came in a fancy box. She then took the box, and said it needs to be hidden. Scissors are a big thing for young girls, as they need to use the childrens scissors. Maybe its also present in far right & left movements, where the aim is to enter a perfectly equal society, where there are no differences. Of course completely confusing equality with having no differences. Like many modern feminist do, who think that women should be the same as men, not equal to men. That there can be equal relationships, between totally different people. Addiction is not created because of conditioning, but its a means to avoid pain. As long as the person thinks that they can turn the bad breast into a good one, the person can believe that the mother does actually care about them. This is the reason people so desperately cling into these types of relationships, to avoid coming to terms with the original loss. Because if that is not love, then what they received from their mothers was not love. So the addiction is in the fixing, if they can turn the bad breast into a good breast. This would be the ultimate triumph, the denial of loss. Much the same mechanism as in perversions. I also think, that there lies a way to avoid envy in both sides of these relationships. The masochistic person could be seen as taking the role of the good mother, self scarifying enduring mother. While the other side would be the teasing withholding mother. While both project their own needing self onto the other. So i would say that envy is caused by problems in the separation and individuation process. And these problems would arise from one sided relationships. Where the child is an object of the mother. That is either overly gratified, or teased. Interaction lacking this type of reciprocal tunement.

[@doncarveth]

@@Nobody-Nowhere Yes. But psychopathology is not just eradication of differences, it is also exaggeration of differences.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

*******

[@felicianerlenburg2744]

Thank you for this overview! You often mention the ‘cold, sadistic, rejecting’ object. But what about an overly devouring, enveloping, ‘too close’ object. Can that also lead to masochism, for example by then looking for an object that re-enacts a proximity that is felt as too close. Thanks

[@doncarveth]

Yes, I think Berliner’s theory would include that