DONT Struggle: Simple Steps to Replace Your Honda Civic Starter!

[@fredmanning4785]

I bet I've watched at least ten of these video about replacing a 2012 Honda Civic starter and this was the last one I needed to watch, Thank You very much for making the perfect video!!

[@nicolasmartin4233]

This is my 5th, hope this one's actually good

[@seesamfall]

don't wanna be the guy who benefits from your video without saying thank you so much for the info man. it really helped me out today! you're awesome!

[@mrbiggslove]

This video was a great help to me in changing a 2012 Honda Stepwagon. And it is much more difficult than in the video. That top bolt installed before is the best thing ever. Top ratings.

[@staceyperryman7922]

Hey man, just wanted to say thanks. Your method followed the service manual almost exactly, but the visuals still helped. Got it done in 3 hours, including bench testing the new and old starters. I was not taking any risk doing this mess with a starter that was bad out of the box 😂

[@stephenbaker9725]

I watched so many of these honda starter videos and this one is by far the best! Thank you so much for making this video!

[@MrCodymann00]

Great video! Putting in the sizes of sockets as needed is the most underrated bit of information involved with any repair videos/tutorials

[@quynhessence]

Hey Ed! I love the thoroughness of this video. Definitely appreciate an approach that doesn't take off the exhaust and as few parts as reasonably possible. I like the thoughtful instructions and truly appreciate the angles of the camera. Subscribed! One thing I'd like to see is the list of tools ahead of time -- listed in the description and the video. I did not expect that many extensions on the torque wrench at 15:36 😅

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you kindly. I appreciate the feedback. I will try to implement your request going forward.

[@bmcclory123]

Thank you. Had to get some socket extensions but got it done in about 3 hours. Very annoying. Your video was extremely helpful and made the success possible.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am so happy this helped! That's what my channel is all about. This is a tough one, and the reason I decided to make the video. Please take a moment to watch a few other videos, and if it makes sense, please consider subscribing.

[@texelct]

Great video! I just swapped the starter on a 2019. While there were a few differences (the transmission wire has been reworked) the whole thing was close enough to prepare me and get me through. I think the key to a positive outcome is getting the car high enough off the ground to maneuver underneath it. I’m really impressed that you could video and do the work as well. Thanks for the help!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you! I am so glad the video helped. Please take a moment to look around, and if my content makes sense for your viewing, please consider subscribing. My end goal is to help people out.

[@45545videos]

Thank you for this video. This, along with the comments, told me I was way in over my head thinking I could do this myself with only the front of my car propped up on those oil change ramps.

[@theguitartree]

Thank you so much for the step by step! Changed my first starter in my 2015 civic. Got the Duralast gold starter. Took me a couple days because I ran into issues with not having the right tools, and other things. But your video was a huge help. One issue I had was the washer surrounded by rubber that goes on the new starter was millimeters too big and wouldn’t set. So I shaved off just a little bit of the washer and the rest of the install went pretty smoothly! Taking off the flashing by the wheel was also brilliant and a huge help. Seriously thank you so much for teaching me how to change my starter!!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Wow thank you for watching, I am so glad the video helped. That is why I do it. I am not sponsored or paid by anyone. I do this for the viewers. Please take a moment and watch a few more videos on my channel and if it makes sense please consider subscribing.

[@quynhessence]

what did you do at 14:55?

[@edtheoldtechguy]

After starting the upper bolt by hand and ensuring it caught threads safely. At 14:55 I am using electric ratchet to tighten it. You can see the shimmer of silver in the upper left, and you can see how the starter snugs up once the ratchet tightens the bolt.

[@jameswalker1210]

Outstanding in structural & educational video, very well filmed & explained!

[@clansof]

Your video is amazing, it's the best and easiest one for me. It took me 5 hours to remove that screw and it took me a while to put it back in. 9:53

[@chevyfried]

Thank you so much for your video. You saved me so much time swapping mine out. I bought a used starter on ebay from a reputable junk yard, supposedly only 60k miles on it from a 2018 HR-V (my 2012 civic has 160k) for $45! Other than some dust, it looked brand new. I don't trust aftermarket or reman. The only thing I did different which helped a lot, was removing the 2 mounting bolts from the wheel well using like 3ft of extensions and also a universal joint and also a wobbly extension. Oh and another set of hands helps! Hardest part was getting that top bolt back in. I didn't put it in the start when I slid it in to place, and it took like 2 hours just to get my hands/arms in a spot where I could get it lined up. I also did the motors mounts at the same time and forgot to reconnect the grounds before I tested it. Thought I got a bad motor. Nope, just me being stupid. Connected the grounds and fired right up. Had to also deal with some holes in the intake hose, but nothing a little duct tape couldn't fix until a new one comes in. Cheers!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am so glad my video helped! It's the reason I started posting on social media to help people out. Please be sure to watch some of my other content and if it fits your viewing consider subscribing. Also be sure to pass my channel details along.

[@LazaroBarrera-lb6bo]

The best way to do it was remove one day and install next day, cracked me a 6 and had fun with it. Round two today! Thanks vid btw. Hardest thing was hand positioning.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

very welcome! If you get a chance check out a few more videos and if it makes sense for your viewing consider subscribing. I am always making videos on tools tech DIY

[@TotodrivesspdTanker]

Nice tutorial...love it. I really enjoyed it as I'm a diyer

[@josephb2593]

This video saved me a lot of time and frustration. Get someone to help you so you don't have to get out from under the car a million times and it's not too bad. Thanks for the video.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

oh yeah having a second pair of hands helps a lot

[@DiligentDave1966]

I don’t have a Civic anymore, but I will watch this video all the way through if I ever get another one. It’s a shame that your channel, and channels like yours, don’t have way more subscribers than they do. You were totally right in your live stream. Drama creates views.

[@ralphmiller6844]

This the best video that I found on this topic- new subscriber here. Thank you!!

[@carsandtrucks4life818]

Great video it took me 2 days i’m working flat ground with two jackstands holding up the front of the vehicle. Great idea to remove that transmission plug once I got those wires out of the way I could finally see the loooong top bolt. I’ve been hunting for and I was able to get in there with a swivel socket thanks again. I just gotta figure out how to put it back together lol

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am sure you did great! Thank you for watching and please if it makes sense consider subscribing

[@GerzonAlari]

I needed this today so thank you! Subscribed👌🏼❤️

[@blackfalconn]

This is great, thank you for showing all the different angles and going into detail about the clips. This is such a frustrating job, I am partway into installing the new starter. My ACDelco reman is missing one leg of that L shaped bracket that holds a couple of the clips, and the cone end is shaped a little differently. We'll see how it works.

[@blackfalconn]

I ended up zip tying the solenoid lead to the green bracket. Works for now! This is by far the most frustrating starter job I've done.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Glad it was helpful! This is why I purchased the part at the dealer for the same price as Autozone and a 3 year warranty

[@stratrat57]

How much did you pay? My dealership wants $550 for the starter. The most expensive one (ACDelco) at AZ is $229.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@stratrat57 I paid ~$200 but my local dealer has me noted as a mechanic shop because I buy so much from them. I have built the relationship over years.

[@emerycomputer]

Clear and detailed. 3 thumbs up!

[@mikedilcher5856]

THANKS for the video my man helped alot!!!!!!

[@98r648]

Your video was very very helpful! Thank you so very much for it. I couldn't believe Honda hid the starter like that. A lot tougher than my 98 ITR and my old 2000 Civic hatchback.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am so glad it helped. Please be sure to watch a few mote videos and if my content makes sense for you please consider subscribing. We talk about tools tech diy here and have fun doing it.

[@jonmullaly7497]

Best civic starter vid yet....

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Wow thank you!

[@ezekielfonseca9037]

Props to all the mechanical DIY people out there. I hate working on cars but some times it’s worth it vs paying 700 bucks for a mechanic to do it. 700 is a 12hr day of work for me so I rather spend the 4-5 hrs replacing it.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@ezekielfonseca9037 100% That's what my channel is here for to help all the DIYers save time and money! Please consider subscribing

[@mikeOnegative]

$700 a day? Most folks don't even make that in a week. If i made that much daily. I wouldn't be sweating my arse off workin on my car.

[@HeathM-jr3jm]

Thanks so much for this video. Was able to successfully change mine out (with the help from a couple friends.)

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Great to hear!

[@montanawhite5699]

Great video, but this looks terrible. I changed a starter on a old crv a few years ago. Took over 5 hours. Why Honda gotta do this to us?

[@magfeed]

FLAT RATE IS FLAT RATE

[@AG-ur1lj]

Just replaced mine. It was terrible. I only removed the bottom cover and the bracket at 7:20 (and driver side tire) Did it all laying under the car. Breaking the top bolt was tough but nothing compared to the bottom. Should’ve done that one first. Used an old flashlight as a breaker bar, but I was close to giving up on the last bolt

[@djbrown3186]

I've started to notice that Honda is the Apple of cars. Apple loves to use three different screws to hold one item in so that way you're forced to take the phone to them and not do it yourself and that's what Honda likes to do as well.

[@AG-ur1lj]

@@djbrown3186 I think in Apple’s case, it’s more about making it difficult for 3rd parties to make competitive products in the Apple-sphere without completely committing to how they do things. With Apple, it goes deeper than just the screws. The resolution of their screens, the instruction set of their CPU-everything is decided by Apple. In the world of computers where every component is often made by competing 3rd parties, Apple is the only one that controls the whole chain all the way down. It has major benefits and major drawbacks.

[@chucktestas9014]

This video is very thorough. Very helpful!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

You are very welcome! Thank you, please consider watching a few more videos and if it makes sense for what you watch on youtube consider subscribing

[@aarontaing8795]

Going to try this on my mom civic. Mercy!!!😵‍💫

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@@aarontaing8795 Set aside time coffee and patience, it can be a tight fit.

[@SpoofedTVadmin]

They did a great job with the placement of the starter. They are hoping you give up on replacing it and go out and a new car.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

LOL! thats funny

[@UnrepresentedAmerican]

Thanks

[@godson849]

Thank you sir so much

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am so happy it helped, please consider subscribing and watching more videos.

[@BooskiCastro]

Would this work for 2013

[@edtheoldtechguy]

In the video description, I noted that this is for 9th generation honda Civic 2012 thru 2015. 2013 should be the same.

[@coreturkoane5570]

yes

[@superanglis]

Excelente video. Muy bien explicado.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you! Please consider subscribing

[@jamesbryson9542]

I used two short and one regular extension on the long bolt. You can crack it from the top over the first pulley this way..... if stronger fewer extensions and you can break from underneath...I didn't take the wheel off. Or the front splash shield.

[@williamherrera8780]

Excellent work

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you! Please check out the rest of my content, and if it fits your viewing, consider subscribing. I am here to help.

[@ChrisMoore-gr7sy]

Hey Ed. I just wanted to say thank you for making this video for us. I appreciate the narrated walk though. Thorough and helpful. I particularly like knowing beforehand which socket sizes to grab before sliding back under the car. Also, great tip on pre-installing the upper bolt - what a life saver. Thank you sir. - Chris in Tampa ( July 4th, 2024) Help for others: I was able to remove/install both starter bolts from the wheel well using multiple extensions and a universal on my 14 mm. Mine is a 2013 LX Coupe (2-door). The plastic splash guard is longer and has more bolts/clips. Also, rather than bring the starter down through the bottom it passed easily through the wheel well area. Note of eternal damnation: Lord, please forever torment the engineer that designed that @%*# rubber cap. May he spend eternity trying to start the threads on that 12 mm nut while the rubber cap plays goalie. Amen. Happy Independence Day!!!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@ChrisMoore-gr7sy LOL! Thanks for the comment, and I am glad this video helped. Please consider watching a few more of my videos, and if they make sense for your KZbin viewing, consider subscribing.

[@luisfer1624]

Hey men i did all you did un the video but my starter its spinning but it doesn't make the engine start i was wondering the old starter spin to the Left and the new one that o git spin to the right do you have any idea what's going on? Please i need help ❤

[@edtheoldtechguy]

This sounds like it didnt go in right or you haver some broken teeth on that main gear if you do thats a bigger job

[@bindig1]

I would highly recommend pulling the passenger side axle. Some say remove the exhaust pipe but the axle is really in the way. Easy to pull. Once the axle is out you have so much more room. The exhaust pipe is not in the way at all. Besides, if you live in the Northeast like me, those exhaust flange bolts are not coming out easily

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Since I am in the Midwest and in the rust belt. I agree on the exhaust pipe. Don't mess with it. As for the axel, as you saw, I did not touch it either, and I think it's the best way.

[@billbeckett1021]

First engineer I ever saw with dirty hands. Ed really is a man of many talents! Excellent vid!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you brother!

[@3Lijahh]

3 hours to take out 5 hours to reinstall (would’ve been three but my shoulder kept getting tired.) This video was a tremendous helped and saved us 600$. Part was 150 after turning in the old one and veteran 10% discount. Tools and jacks ran me about 200 and I didn’t have the torque or universal. Actually ima go grab it. I’ll be damned

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am so glad my video helped you, Sir. Veteran discount? Well, please let me thank you for your service. This job is a challenging but relatively fun one, and you do get a workout. Please take a moment to watch a few more of my videos, and if it makes sense for your viewing needs, please consider subscribing.

[@bindig1]

Just the way I did it except I didn't put the top bolt in first like you did and like you said, I wish I had. It too probably an hour just to get that bolt in because you can't see it and it's tight space

[@noxxider4361]

Nice explanations!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jdavis8610]

Did you pull the wheel well cover off when doing this job?

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Yes I show it in the video

[@pop_ulation]

thank you!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@pop_ulation You are very welcome! If you get a chance, check out a few more videos, and if it fits your viewing, please consider subscribing

[@kinghayes5010]

So I did everything exactly like he said in the video but for some reason my cars over heating warning sign popped up but I’ve changed the thermostat and water sensor what did I do wrong and how do I fix it

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Strange the cooling system is not anywhere near the starter. Could it be that you nicked or moved coolant hose and caused air to come into the system? Air in a cooling system can cause overheating.

[@donniediesel6.789]

Well done!

[@AG-ur1lj]

19:10 - oh shit, I’m watching this video as a review to make sure I didn’t miss anything. I _totally_ forgot that I dropped an extender somewhere behind me while trying to break the bottom starter bolt. Having trouble finding it though… I know it’s up in there somewhere

[@coreturkoane5570]

Question, why did you change the starter and how many miles you had on the car when you changed it out!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

The civic had over 150k miles on it. The customer reported symptoms of not always starting. I diagnosed the problem as bad starter and confirmed it with some testing.

[@brankolazic1448]

I had 165 k . The car would not start…

[@QMarley512]

I’m having a hard time seeing where how you approached disconnecting everything. Like where are you reaching in from? I guess I’ll figure it out when I do it myself

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@QMarley512 That is a good concer. There were a few times I could not see and only feel my way around. For the most part once it's up and you are under the car the openings from where you can see are very obvious. The bracket on the passenger side was the hardest as that one is hard to see.

[@carlnikolov]

Hey man thanks. Hate haynes manual. Looks like newsprint garbage. Im in rust belt too

[@adammendoza3503]

Awww, Yes… I like that tool the best… the mule kick…😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@edtheoldtechguy]

LOL! I am mad it didn't get it off on the first kick

[@jpope210]

Did you use a 1/2 or 3/4 ratchet? Assuming 3/4 just wanna make sure mine will fit under there. Also what length were the extensions used? This is a job i plan on doing this weekend and already dreading it lol

[@J-WHO312]

Excellent 👏🏼

[@rmzstudio8229]

Great video but I would do a wide angle view or zoom out so people can see a wide view of where these areas are exactly because with the zoomed view you can only see the specific area but not the big picture. Keep it uo

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you for the advice. I will think about how to incorporate it in the future. I have to say that a wide angle in those areas is tough as I can't move far enough back and still show what I want to show. As I pull back, I get the pavement or an engine part that won't let me go farther back. The work is done in a driveway, and I can't seem to find a better way to record, but the point is valid, and I will ponder it and see how I can adjust in future videos. Perhaps a fish eye lens kit.

[@donpetering5142]

Very confused at the 12 minute mark. "In the hole"? Did you keep it there or rotated to get the connections on? Is that viewed from the top with the manifold removed? Where are the cables? Why aren't they in the way. There is no way I'm getting those connections done with it "in the hole"

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@donpetering5142 It would go in the same way it comes out. See the video a bit before 11:20 This is some tight work and yes it was not fun at all to record it.

[@pablogutierrez1009]

I struggled. This is not a simple steps. Brutal to say the least but thank you, well done.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

It is a challenging job. After you have done a few it gets better. I am so glad you were able to knock it out and save money for your and your fam.

[@hackn3y199]

easy enough, not sure i needed to remove the very front plastic shield. 4 of my plastic shield clips broke and the front 10mm like you, so ya prolly grab some beforehand 😂

[@HighGrade_FireBlade]

It’s a starter, not a cylinder head or connecting rod cap. Get a 3/8th ratchet in there and give it a good tug. My master tech sure ain’t wasting time fishing his torque wrench in there

[@norrrlife]

My mom bought a cheap remanufactured starter from autozone so after a year I have to do this again. 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@norrrlife oh no! I buy these from the dealer with 3 year warranty. It's worth the extra cost.

[@rogermelvin602]

Great vid,by far the worst starter I have done.

[@jeremym8748]

Very informative. Doing this was God awful, makes me want to get rid of this car. I fixed it, but it was hell

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@jeremym8748 I agree. It's challenging, but I tell you this with great confidence, You are a better man for it. Every repair is a medal 🏅

[@alfredoalvarez4259]

I was told that I couldn’t put an aftermarket starter it won’t work

[@mamedvu8770]

I get exhausted watching these starter videos. Why is it so difficult? cmon Honda

[@edtheoldtechguy]

its tough but fun just take your time

[@HighGrade_FireBlade]

You have no idea what a difficult starter replacement is based off this comment. I’ve replaced starters where the starter is mounted inside the bell housing and you need to split the trans from the engine assembly to get to it. I’ve seen things that only exist in your nightmares.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@HighGrade_FireBlade Please noooo, you are reminding me of the Northstar Engine Starter replacements. Once you did a few it want bad but it was annoying 😆

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

Flag down on the field!!!! 6:52 , Untoolsman like conduct. Using some grandmother's ratchet without her or her 11 year old daughter's permission. Midplay penalty 10 yards. Please return ratchet to place of purchase and get store credit for full $2.99 value before resuming play.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Hahaha! Crazy bro

[@brankolazic1448]

Took me 4 hours to replace the starter… I am hurting Bro 😎…why honda…. Why this deep …???

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I cant speak for Honda but yes this is a challenging job for sure

[@immachintoch]

Same, on 2012 honda accord.

[@jeffreyevans6892]

Nice job. I think my 2012 Civic my need a starter. Best car I've ever own.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Glad I could help please feel free to subscribe

[@brainwashed7244]

DONT Struggle ! And thats exactly what you did before editing lol

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@brainwashed7244 If I struggle, its so you don't have too.

[@jeffreyevans6892]

R/R my starter today. NAPA $180 bucks. Removed the R/F wheel. Real PITA job, but got it done. Good to go!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Excellent! Glad to hear it! Please make sure to subscribe

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

Geez.....This is a job. The starter on my old 7.3 Diesel was easier than that. (It did weight more than half the Honda but jeepers)

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I bet that's not a fun job at all!

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

Fun paying for one...no @@edtheoldtechguy . Fun story..yes. Dump truck, big snow..Snow is on the ground an over the pumper. Truck is parked and I had to tunnel under. Once under the truck the evening air was....igloo 'ized. I swapped starter and went out and made 650.00 that night hauling snow from one parking lot to a dump spot. The 7.3 ran over 12 hours without being shut off. The cab was so toasty warm that I had the windows open (Dump bed had a cover over the cab so some of the falling snow was blocked). Life was fun. Have a fun weekend!

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@@Dancing_Alone_wRentals That sounds very cool!

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

tHanks @@edtheoldtechguy It is one of those memories that needed to only happen one time and the positive lesson sticks with you for your entire life.

[@bkproductions3569]

What a headache!! So much to remove and finangle yourself!!

[@mrvang8077]

The placement of the starter is stupid af. Just make servicing it much more difficult to remove and re-installing.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

It just takes time and patience and a few explatives LOL

[@cayrick]

Too much work for me

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I understand. It's one of the reasons I make these videos. It gives one the knowledge to decide. Thanks for your comment 👍

[@montanawhite5699]

Can’t get the stupid thing back in when it hooked up to the two top connectors… Honda sucks. I changed a starter on a crv and that thing was buried as well. If you gonna make the starter impossible to get to you better make it better.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I understand the frustration it took a lot of wiggeling for sure

[@montanawhite5699]

I finally got the starter in place but I had to remove a big bolt from something connected to the oil pan, also had to remove the rod with the metal tan on it. I also didn’t put the top bolt in because I couldn’t get the starter to fit with anything on it. Now I can’t get the top bolt inside of course. I think I’m going to try get the top bolt in, leave that rod that holds the starter together out, and if anything if the starter falls apart I’m taking it to a shop. I hate this car. It’s literally louder on the road than my 89 bronco with mud tires. The road noise is unbearable. 2012 civic has 0 noise dampening anything, and I don’t know if the tires wore funny, they are only 2 years old. But after they harden up from age they get really loud. If it was up to me I’d give this PoS away for free. I’m telling my wife I ain’t working on her shitty Honda anymore. Again, I don’t know how, but this Honda with road tires is louder than my bronco. How is that possible? I don’t know. I hope it blows up.

[@edtheoldtechguy]

@@montanawhite5699 I am sorry for the frustrations. It can be a challenging job. I did my best to remove as little as possible as customers will blame us for other failures for a car this age.

[@alanwatts8117]

Honda ? You suck I was able to do this job easy ..

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

Dang......one more extension and Powerstroke Jude could of torqued that puppy from his couch 15:55

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Hahaha I may have needed more!

[@MrDaicon23]

That still looks so struggle.

[@thomasjordan7498]

Comment

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Thank you!

[@johnnyrios7084]

Don’t be fooled fellas . This is a nightmare…. Unless you have skinny a** arms this will be a struggle. Top bolt is not to bad to take off…. Getting it back on is the extra 4 hours

[@edtheoldtechguy]

I am always under the impression that if I can do it, anyone can. It greatly helps if you have a second person. I will agree that this can be challenging, but it's not as bad as other cars. I'm recalling the GM Northstar engine. I made this video to help and provide tips to anyone trying to take this on as I could see how this could become challenging without prior knowledge. Thanks for watching and the comment.

[@PistonHonda87]

Step 1: Don’t buy a Honda. Step 2: Buy a Subaru

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

$%@!@ Who parked this #Q#$ Subby in this spot! Dude can't see or can't read or both...The sign reads " Ridgeline Truck Parking Only" !

[@edtheoldtechguy]

Hondas are great bro. I don't often change a starter they are pretty dang reliable.

[@Gekkoid]

step 3. double the pain. buy both.

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

(@@Gekkoid ....that was good )

[@theorigin1891]

2014 i did haf ontake manifold in the front??