Doom Console Ports #2 (Jaguar/3DO/Saturn) | Punching Weight | SSFF

New here? Subscribe! ► kzbin.info_c...
It's time to return to the king of the 90's FPS, Doom! In this episode we talk about some of Doom's best and worst ports ever, but we don't let that stop us from having a good time! #doom #doomports
Credits
• Written by Derek Alexander & Grace Kramer
• Edited by Soberdwarf & Derek Alexander
T-Shirts and Pins Available at Fangamer
• www.stopskeletons.com/shop
Get early access to new SSFF videos on Patreon
• bit.ly/SSFFpatreon
Subscribe and join the Skeleton Crew today!
• kzbin.info_c...
Special thanks to Sober Dwarf for helping with the edit
• Sober Dwarf / @soberdwarf
Artwork and Bumper by the always incredible Clockwork Pixel,
• bit.ly/ClockworkPixel
More Stop Skeletons From Fighting
• Secrets of the N64 Expansion Pak (Ft. Matt McMuscles): • Secrets of the N64 Exp...
• How Mega Man 11 Rose from the Ashes of Mighty No 9: • How Mega Man 11 Rose f...
• Resident Evil 2 Ports, Prototypes, & Oddities: • Resident Evil 2 Ports,...
• Kojima vs Konami Explained: • Kojima vs Konami Expla...
• How Doom '16 Redefines the "Retro Throwback": • How Doom '16 Redefines...
Follow Stop Skeletons From Fighting!!
• Instagram: bit.ly/SSFFinstagram (@stopskeletons)
• Twitter: bit.ly/SSFFtwitter (@stopskeletons)
• Facebook: bit.ly/SSFFfacebook
• Twitch: bit.ly/SSFFtwitch

[@carlcouture1023]

Burger Becky is a goddamn hero. An entire team of people would have done worse work. Thank you for pointing out that she did the best she could under completely absurd circumstances.

[@Gojiro7]

Betcha she could have saved Cyberpunk 2077s development woes XD

[@DanZiniti]

I had never heard this story before. What a badass she seems to be!

[@sgtcreasegrease]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[@getgle]

Now I get why the port is so bad. It was programmed by a woman

[@sgtcreasegrease]

@@getgle Someone didn't watch the video

[@ClexYoshi]

I'm a 3DO kid, and it makes me so sad that the 3DO version of Doom is so bad when Wolf 3D is amazing.

[@skeith804]

Least we got cool covers out of it.

[@A31Chris]

Optimus is doing fantastic work on 3do Doom. Check out.

[@Chaos89P]

Chalk it up to corporate incompetence.

[@garysharkey17]

3DO kids represent!

[@Takemura77]

Who asked?

[@QuestForTori]

I know Becky IRL and I remember when she told me about the 3DO Doom story, my jaw just dropped at the sheer levels of incompetence that game industry management can sink to. Maybe I should ask her if she wants to play it together on my 3DO the next time I see her. XD

[@spoopzey]

Also mention to her how much of a LEGEND she is! Still can't believe she got that port ready in time.

[@RebeccaHeineman]

Hell is a warm place. :) Hi Vicki!

[@QuestForTori]

Rebecca Heineman Hi, Becky! :D

[@tjrizvi251]

Rebecca Heineman Yo Becky, you a legend

[@RebeccaHeineman]

I still can't believe it as well, and I'm the one who did it.

[@Parody42]

My pride of my collection is a signed copy of the SNES version. I met John Romero when he visited my college and he got a kick out of me having the copy for the SNES.

[@ClassicDOOM]

Very cool. :)

[@rekius328]

Zachary J Pierce lmfao What do you mean "he got a kick out of me for having the copy of SNES."

[@Parody42]

Commander Rex328 He just started laughing because most people have him sign like PC/DOS versions. He also told me about how ID had barely any involvement in the port and only were fully made aware of it when it was like ready to ship.

[@GiordanDiodato]

@@Parody42 now that's funny. I wonder what his reaction would be if it was the 32x port.

[@jean-pierreraduocallaghan8422]

Wow ! That's amazing ! Lucky guy ! :)

[@Ghost_Of_SAS]

Kid with a Jaguar: "I will never be bored again!" Mom, looking like Yoda: "You will be. You _will_ be."

[@wschippr1]

Ghost81 Nah, I love my jaguar, I am working on finishing my collection. Atari Karts, Doom, Wolfenstien, Rayman, Battlesphere, Tempest 2000, Raiden, Hoverstrike, Attack of the Mutant Penguins (debatable, but I like it), Breakout, Defender, Missile Command 3D, Cannon Fodder, Flashback, Super Burnout, Worms, power Drive Rally are all fun. Plus, the homebrew scene on it is intense.

[@joeywalker2061]

@@wschippr1 Don't forget alien vs predator my cousin had a jaguar and that game was awesome.

[@joeywalker2061]

@@wschippr1 controller sucks ass through a crazy straw through.

[@wschippr1]

@@joeywalker2061 I actually don't like AvP that much. It's one of those games that at the time it was amazing, but it's hard to play now (at least for me). It's the same with Iron Soldier 1&2, great at the time and pushed gaming forward, but it's meh today. I don't think the controller is that bad. Don't get me wrong, it's not a good controller, but it's more than usable. It doesn't hurt to use, it fits comfortably in one's hands (I also have small baby hands). The pro controller also fixed most of the issues that the base on had. Like Atari Karts is fun with the pro but not the base imo.

[@yostoyou]

I spent an embarrassing amount of time playing Doom on GBA in bed pretty recently. It's honestly quite enjoyable despite all the technical issues and it just feels great playing Doom on a Gameboy.

[@chamoo232]

It look even more impressive on a Gameboy Micro. That and Duke Nukem Advance. We are at a point where cellphones can put out PS3/XB360 quality graphics but I'm still more impressed by running Doom on a GB Micro.

[@txcforever]

Well, given you can easily play it on a Vita or a PSP (and basically every single device in the known universe with a screen) there's no reason to play it on the Game Boy except curiosity. I used the files from Doom 1 and 2 I bought from Steam and put them on my Vita. It's amazing.

[@yostoyou]

txcforever Hence why it's embarrassing. I have that excellent Beloko Android "multi-port" from the Amazon app store and an attachable gamepad so I have no excuse. But there's just something charming and accessible about playing it on GBA. Kinda wish I had a Vita though...

[@billypen6680]

txcforever doom on my refridgerator when

[@VexAcer]

Not too embarrassing. The GBA version is decent port that runs better than a lot of the other console versions and still plays well. Obviously there are more modern ways of playing Doom, but its not a bad choice if you happen to have a GBA with you anyway.

[@wolfgangfrost8043]

The Jag levels being reused on other ports for "memory" reasons was about RAM, not storage space. Less variety in the textures & enemies was key to getting the PS1 version working as well as it did.

[@SameNameDifferentGame]

"And one other person willing to deal with your weird videogame bullshit." Story of my life, man.

[@DarkMProductions]

The interesting thing about the Saturn version is that the game was apparently up and running at a near flawless 60 fps, but at the cost of a lot of texture warping. Which Carmack infamously despised. If Carmack hadn't been so stubborn, the Saturn version would have been the best running console port of the game, by far.

[@cacomeat7385]

Dark Mountain Productions for all we know the warping could have been extremely distracting. If it's just ps1-type stuff going on it would've been fine, and it likely was just that, but have you _seen_ what affine swim looks like at its worst? I'm not saying that the Saturn version is excusable but we don't really know the whole story

[@jasonarmstrong5750]

Dark Mountain Productions you want to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs

[@bitwize]

Dark Mountain Productions The texture warping was probably caused by the fact that both the Saturn and PlayStation lacked perspective-correct hardware texture transforms. Carmack should've sucked it up. I'm glad he admitted his mistake on being nitpicky on the textures.

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

bitwize it’s pretty easy to be like “my bad” years after. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.

[@Painocus]

BesuBaru: BesuBaru: Not really doable. The original texture-warping engine and the final software-render engine were programmed completly differently. They didn't even use the same parts of the Saturn's hardware. The original engine put the blunt of the graphics work on the Saturn's VDPs leaving the CPU with ample rooms to run the rest of the game. The final version, to meet Carmack's demands, had to force the CPU to do more-or-less everything and leave the Saturn's dedicated graphics-hardware basically unused. This is why the game runs like sludge.

[@Macynlace]

My first DOOM experience was at a baby sitters house who had, get this, a stand up Jaguar arcade cabinet with DOOM on it. The lack of music made it almost unbearably scary to me as a kid, so when Doom 3 came out I didnt understand what everyone's fuss was about it being a horror game. DOOM on jaguar was a horror game to me.

[@FeelingShred]

Heretic without music was a marvelous experience for full immersion. Water drops, ambient noises and the infamous sorcerer's mumblings

[@TheAzureNightmare]

You should have seen PSX Doom, bro. This has got Aubrey Hodges' first foray with Doom Music, and it's just as freaky as Doom 64!

[@drownsinkoolaid4203]

For anyone wanting to try, the 3DO version emulated is one of the best versions at the time. It's either the emulator FreeDO or 3DOPlay or the like but it allows you to overclock the virtual CPU easily in real time, and the game runs about as good as the Jaguar in full screen. Only downside is the emulator has basically piss-all for controlls support but use something like XPadder and it works beautifully!

[@JohnGabrielUk]

Ten minutes ago: "Dude, if you do not talk about Burger Becky, we are going to have words." Now: "DEREK WHY DID I EVER DOUBT YOU"

[@WTFisTingispingis]

John Gabriel BURGER BECKY GOT SHIT DONE

[@thedrewdog]

Derek's a good dude. Even if Becky had pissed him off, I don't see him having a bad word to say about her.

[@alexanderrose2808]

Derek and Grace.... please...never stop doing what you are doing. The notification for your upload was the highlight of my morning.

[@schinkenspringer1081]

morning?! its like 1pm in germany xD

[@sl1mewizard812]

YOU TUBE GLOTZ timezones

[@ElectricVikingTube]

Hey, I'm on a SSFF video! Glad to be helping you good folks keep the No Chumps Zone pumpin'!

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

But why would you want to stop skeletons from fighting?

[@bibasik7]

IKR! If the skeletons fight, you will only have to kill one that's on low health, rather than 2 at full health.

[@ClassicDOOM]

I know, right? I'd rather encourage them to fight. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmiun5eIobFkd80

[@cornnflaekman7343]

That’s Like Asking To Take Out The Cyber Demon In Doom And Not Have It At All

[@bananachild1936]

I just finished watching your "Doom Console Ports #1" video that's been uploaded since 2 years ago this morning. I was hoping for another video of the same topic to come out from your channel then lo and behold here it is now uploaded 6 hours ago. Thanks for making another one of these!

[@contrivedresident5917]

Doom on three Doomed consoles,eh? I’m not funny.

[@luna11279]

Westchester Mapper the Saturn was actually super successful in japan

[@contrivedresident5917]

In America however....

[@luna11279]

Westchester Mapper didn't really effect the console overall as much as you'd think

[@luna11279]

Westchester Mapper it actually did better than the N64 even

[@contrivedresident5917]

noato shirogane Well,I was just focusing on America.

[@Dun-N-Dusted]

I'm glad that you like the GBA ports Derek, Such a fun time!

[@PugoSixtyFour]

I WAS LITERALLY JUST REWATCHING THE DOOM PORTS VIDEO

[@aarongreenfield9038]

Ultimately we're all doomed!

[@AudioXVNVXTheNightLife]

lol

[@Beansman-gp3ws]

This is a double pun. "Ultimatley" is a reference to the retail version (Ultimate Doom)

[@rouletteyourlocalkitkat]

that's actually good.

[@SoulStealerJay]

ehhehhehehehheh thats funny lol

[@plutterton]

I love this stuff. You should check out the demoscene. I was reading that Mario's face in Mario 64 was a demo the dev was working on to test the hardware and Miyamoto decided to put it in the game

[@testarossa7993]

Now we should take the 3DO soundtrack and the Jaguar version of the game and then combine the two into a Jaguar CD game.

[@GiordanDiodato]

or make it for the Saturn

[@j.adickey2002]

:) :) :) :)

[@Chaos89P]

Or maybe have the 3DO soundtrack on modern ports? Eh, that may be a licensing nightmare.

[@curtmack]

The level changes in Jaguar DOOM weren't just to reduce the size of the levels on the ROM - they also reduced the memory footprint of the game. Remember, PC DOOM required a minimum 4 MiB of RAM. In the fifth console generation, 2 or even 1 MiB of RAM was the norm; only the N64 and the Saturn had 4 MiB of RAM. Every level in DOOM has four main structures that must be loaded into memory before the game can run: the list of linedefs that make up the level, the BSP tree used for rendering the world, the blockmap used for collision detection, and the table used to reject impossible line-of-sight checks. The more complex the level, the more memory required just to load it. Textures also take up a significant chunk of the engine's memory usage. A texture has to be in memory for the engine to use the moment it's needed; if the renderer realizes it's missing a texture, it has to request that texture be loaded from the WAD (or the ROM, in this case). Not a problem if it only occasionally needs to load a new texture, but on a console with more constrained memory, there's a risk that the engine might need more textures to render a single scene than it can keep in memory at any one time. If this happened, the engine would "thrash," unloading and reloading the same textures multiple times on every frame, which would murder the framerate. To prevent this problem, textures were swapped around to keep the number of textures that could appear on one screen to a minimum. The game also uses large memory structures called "visplanes" to render floors and ceilings. The extremely simplified explanation is that every floor and ceiling visible in a scene requires at least one visplane to render. Visplanes are manipulated in performance-critical code, so they cannot be allocated dynamically as needed. The PC version of DOOM allocates exactly 128 visplanes at startup, and not a single one more. If it ever ran out, the game would simply exit to DOS. (This is impossible in official levels, but it became a frequent source of frustration for early modders.) Reducing the number of separate floors and ceilings allowed John Carmack to cut the number of visplanes down to 64. To summarize: The simplified levels reduced the size of the data structures needed by the DOOM engine, reduced the number of textures that needed to be loaded at a single time, and reduced the number of visplanes needed to render floors and ceilings. Because John Carmack had already solved these problems, most of the console ports were based on that version.

[@EmperorMAR]

Jaguar Doom is what made me fall in love with Doom. I was used to playing it w/o music and it took me forever to figure out that the creepy high pitched sound was doors closing.

[@Area51UFOGynaecology]

Love the Jag version without the music. Its really spooky and runs great on the system. A must-own if you have the system (y)

[@KamiJoJo]

6:06 Jaw Dropping? More like Mind Blowing, if you can say that judging by DoomGuy's face on the HUD.

[@8BitHorse]

Incredibly insightful; thanks Derek! I only ever played the PC and PS1 versions previously, and I spent sooo much time with PS1 link cable co-op. I had no idea there were such huge differences between the quality and content of the other ports.

[@shinny_grimmy]

Soooo happy to see a Part 2 to this series! I just got back from a trip to Italy and found the GBA copy of Doom. Any time I mention this to people, I point them to the video that introduced me to it

[@marscaleb]

I'm glad you touched up on the dev story for the 3DO version. It's such a crazy tale; definitely worth reading the full version.

[@RPGtourguide]

Back for that sweet Soberdwarf editing. ;) That is an incredible story about the 3DO port. I can’t believe someone could think that game development is that simple. Another great video, Skelly Crew!

[@MoeMoeJoeJoe]

Saturn Doom looked so bad that I didn't notice that the video drop from 480p (where it usually is because I'm on my phone) to 144p.

[@voidstrider801]

Personally, my favourite port of Doom 1 and Doom 2 was the versions that came with doom 3 bfg edition on PC, XBOX 360 and PS3, I had the ps3 version of doom 3 bfg edition. Doom 1 and Doom 2 had all the content there, more buttons than controls could be mapped to (both R triggers were the fire function for example) the draw distance was excellent on enemies, who remained almost in full detail at even the largest distances, and could easily be seen. Perfect frame rate, the graphics were possibly the best I have seen the original 2 games look (without modding) and the music was still midi files, but at the highest possible sound quality. Doom had 4 episodes, and Doom 2 had an additional short campaign, to go with it's already lengthy campaign, online mutliplayer and local multiplayer support, co-op, death match. You could also save at any point in the level and load from it, instead of starting the level from the beginning with nothing but your fists and a pistol, but I don't think you could save in co-op mode though. Also you get a remaster of doom 3, with 2 extra campaigns, online multiplayer, and the fact that you can now use your flashlight while using your weapons (flashlight is no longer in inventory, you press a button and you have light, until it runs out and has to recharge) which helps with the game being dark as fuck. Was definitely worth the money, and I will probably get doom 3 bfg edition again for PC.

[@samgittins3522]

Thanks for another excellent episode of Punching Weight. You've got to love some of these Doom ports purely for how they came about in the first place, it's always interesting hearing how they came to be. I've always had a soft spot for Doom on the Atari Jaguar and even the GBA version.

[@ClassicDOOM]

GBA Doom is basically Jag Doom in handheld form. Very nice little port for back in the day.

[@NightOfTheLiving8bit]

Seeing a new SSFF video popping up in my sub box...is always a fantastic thing to see! Been watching since the original Lophat Jello days aka RWtv days, so 2011 or so and have YET to be disappointed by any of your content. And once again, another great video! Thanks for the awesome work and keep it comin' man! You've gained a good amount of subs over the last year or so and the view counts have been improving more and more. Just gotta manage to squeeze out more quality content so they'll grow even more!

[@ezriahblack8770]

I'm glad you're gonna keep talking about the crazy Doom ports. I love this topic.

[@ClassicDOOM]

Re comments @ 2:22 : Enemies in 32X Doom can only display front-side sprites, but they can face different directions, and it's technically possible to sneak up on them. But beside not being able to see which way they're facing, there aren't a lot of places to actually approach an enemy from behind its field of view, which is forward-facing but very wide. Also, while in Wait mode they can hear nearby-player weapons, so best keep quiet if you really want to get behind them undetected. ;)

[@bra1nc417d]

I'm surprised that you have only 150k+ subscribers. You're always very descriptive and thorough with your videos. I'm glad to be a subscriber. Your videos are always good man. Also, 1.3k likes VS 13 Dislikes, is quite a good ratio. Keep this shit going dude. I'm a solid fan.

[@captainnintendo]

8:42 Damn! That head explosion!

[@SirJuicyLemon1]

6:05 Wow I never knew there was that Doomguy's face animation on the 3DO's version of the game's HUD

[@WrestlingWithGaming]

Great video! The Jaguar ports for Doom and Wolfenstein 3D are fantastic. I mean, yeah, there's no music on Doom but it plays pretty well. The 3DO Doom port, well, not so much lol. They made up for it with Wolfenstein though. By the way, how did you capture the Jaguar footage. There's some dithering going on in your capture that isn't in the actually there. Not that that takes away from this video. Loved the script, narration, and editing as usual. Great stuff!

[@2drealms196]

Its sad Carmack didn't know how to fully take advantage of the Jaguar CPU SIMD and multithreading back in 1994 when he made the Jaguar version. The Jaguar CPU was so ahead of its time developers didn't know how to fully utilize it. Infact it was so powerful AMD took the Jaguar CPU architecture and made a faster multicore version of it for its APU lineup for desktop, laptops and tablets in 2011. They even used an octocore version of the Jaguar architecture in 2013 for the current gen consoles. Even the mighty Xbox One X with its 6TFLOP gpu uses a modified version of the Jaguar cpu with faster clocks (2.3ghz), larger instruction TLBs and data TLBs, and an improved memory management unit (MMU) for faster main memory access, and an improved GPU command processor that reduces CPU cycles needed to issue DX12 drawcalls.

[@GiordanDiodato]

@@2drealms196 The Jaguar was perhaps a little too ahead of its time. Much like the Saturn and, to an extent, the N64, the Jaguar was very difficult to develop for.

[@InfernalMonsoon]

This video was such perfect timing, I've actually invested in a bluetooth controller just so I could play Doom with the GZDoom source port on my android mobile phone - effectively letting me play modded Doom on the go; now that's the kind of port I can thoroughly enjoy :D

[@qwertyzorovague]

We have co-op doom! In the form of many engines. The most common being Zandronum. However, Doomseeker is used FOR multiplayer. Once the server is chosen, it opens Zandronum along with the server its trying to get into

[@FeelingShred]

Doom Legacy too, it's a rather old port that I find that preserves really well the original software graphics (specially colors) and the controls feel like the original too. That being said, I still think the most loyal port ever is Doom95, but I don't have a clue if it runs in modern systems.

[@qwertyzorovague]

FeelingShred i agree.

[@dbzeh6837]

Very nice video as usual! I´m a huge Seg Saturn fan even it used to suck hard sometimes but I would like to see more of the system struggling to run 3d games!

[@Srrrgp]

I don’t mind the no sound thing; it actually makes me feel like i’m there, it’s more immersive

[@kienesel7]

The story of the 3DO version is fascinating to me. For some reason I love stories of catastrophic overambition and incompetence, maybe because Ive been the one with those in some points in my life. Its nice to know it happens to others too.

[@GameplayandTalk]

Great episode, hearing about DOOM never gets old. While the 3DO port is probably objectively the worst, the Saturn version is by far the most disappointing to me. After seeing PowerSlave, Quake, and Duke Nukem 3D running well on the system (not to mention some other decent efforts, like Alien Trilogy), seeing DOOM run as poorly as it does was like a kick in the nuts. Fun fact about the Euro version, if you play it on a US system, it runs about 10 to 15% faster due to the 50 to 60hz change, so I suppose that's probably the ideal way to play it if you really feel the need to put yourself through it. I'd like to track down a link cable myself and see how bad the system link play is in the import versions.

[@GiordanDiodato]

mostly because Lobotomy didn't work on the Saturn version of Doom. That and John Carmack stuck his dong in the development of it.

[@ikagura]

@@GiordanDiodatoOr that the Saturn isn't suited for 3D

[@demolitiongod64]

@@ikagura If you think the Saturn couldn't handle Doom. Especially since Duke 3d and quake had better ports. You underestimate the power of the Saturn.

[@larkprof]

Thanks man! always a good time at SSFF! Was waiting for this follow up!

[@wschippr1]

Hey, I have two Jaguars, Two Controllers (well five, one rotary dial, two normal, and two pro controllers), two catboxes, and... one copy of Doom... guess I could get a second, but the Jaguar is getting expensive to collect for.

[@Aqua_Xenossia]

As a kid playing it every night at Tower Records/Tower Video, I loved that the Jaguar port had no music- it was infinitely more creepy and empty, adding to the tension and making me want to take things slowly. I felt like sneaking up on everything.

[@FeelingShred]

Playing Heretic without music invokes that feeling too, with the bonus of ambient sounds added to the engine

[@DijaVlogsGames]

You should have reviewed the DOOM version they ported to cars. Yes, Cars. You have to honk to shoot.

[@theodorerelic2718]

Yeah, but who wants to be DOOMed in a car? :)

[@Bowser6495]

I kinda hope your joking 😑

[@CasperEgas]

The Saturn engine would have been tailor made for the Saturn chipset, using both processors. I would love to see the Original beta.

[@andersdenkend]

Whaaaaat? Just since a couple of days I started to play doom again (with some incredible mods, like Simon‘s Destiny or the Hocus Pocus mod, which you should actually check out, too) and here you are uploading part 2 of Doom Ports!

[@benredfield6643]

Another fascinating look at Doom's history :) For anyone interested in hearing Rebecca Heineman's full account of the shit she had to deal with to get the 3DO port done in time, it's on her channel, here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHPFepyiZ62Dibc

[@NightRanma]

Skelly belly crew represent! Awesome work as always!

[@cacodemum]

I was going to be like 'but Saturn DOOM is really pretty fun?' and then I realised when you brought it up that PAL and JP (I played the JP one recently) are more refined and tweaked. Goes beyond just the link cable set up - it actually plays pretty well and the password system even saved your weapons/ammo.

[@AlluMan96]

I don't know if I've ever suggested this to you before, but I would totally love to see at least one episode of Punching weight dedicated to Doom WADs. It's a bit outside the norm, but honestly, I adore the way people have stretched Doom far past it's breaking point for the last 2 decades so much and would love to hear of some WADs that have stuck out to you personally for being ambitious or just weird. It's one of the reasons why, whenever anyone asks recommendations for cheap games, I always say that Doom and Doom 2 are the most value you'll ever get for under 10€.

[@DyoKasparov]

Thanks for continuing with part 2! great viedo

[@TheTurnipKing]

3:06 The levels were redesigned to be more efficient, which made them the obvious candidates for use on more resource constrained systems. Having the raw storage space isn't a huge benefit in this instance. You have to fit the entire map into memory, unless you're willing/able to load chunks into memory on the fly, and then the geometry/textures have to be simple enough to render quickly.

[@Bermondseybob]

Saturn Doom remains the only game I've ever taken back to the shop because it was crap! As soon as I exchanged my copy (I said my brother had bought one too), the very next guy brought his copy back too! The guy behind the counter shot me a look and said "I guess it's rubbish then" and I said "yeah, but I've got rid of my copy now!" On a related note, I actually loved the SNES version back in the day! I'd learned to play Doom in school as someone had installed it on the school's PC (we only had one) and I relished the chance to play it at home, but a PC was way out of our price range. My only fault with SNES Doom at the time was a lack of save games or passwords, but this just meant that I got to know the early levels very, very well!

[@Octave_Rolland]

Recently I was gonna get the GBA port but I found out about DS Doom, a homebrew you can run on a linker. Yes, it's basically Doom on the NDS, with the upper screen showing the action and the bottom screen showing the map and HUD. It's based on the freeware version of Doom so it only includes the first chapter, and it's got a few issues, such as the fact that you can't remap the buttons, but it runs great and is really just a joy to play. Highly recommended. Make sure you get the latest version, though, 1.4 or something, as the earlier ones have bigger issues such as the absence of music.

[@tomascalfu6211]

Actually you can remap controls

[@anthonyverde1522]

Just found out you're attending Retro World Expo in Hartford CT this fall, SO HYPE. Can't wait to meet you and talk some Punching Weight :D

[@nicolasmartinez4337]

Love the commentary on your videos!

[@Horrorfreak106]

Saturn always had the coolest boxart cover honestly

[@vonheer7418]

I know you made a video on Doom 64 before as the HVGN but I want to comment on how awesome Doom 64 is. Im playing through it on cartridge right now after playing through it using Doom 64 EX and it just amazing. As a seasoned classic Doomer the level design is on par with the Plutonia Experiment and has amazing control and frame rate. Goldeneye and Turok are great an all but Doom 64 is just so smooth and refined. I wish it was successful back in the day so that the sequel that was planned would have been made. The sequel would have re-added the revenant, chaingunner, archvile, and spidermastermind that was missing in Doom 64. The sequel would have used a larger cartridge size. The Doom 64 engine is so robust and smooth for n64 that I bet a full 2-player coop mode and 4 player deathmatch would have possible on one system. With the expansion pack I bet four player coop would have been possible. Sadly Doom 64 was missmarketed (it should have been called Doom: Absolution or Doom 64: The Absolution) and people were moving away from 2.5 to full 3d Quake-like even at the cost of frame rate and gameplay. I love the n64 and it's library but I will agree that often times the n64's anti-aliasing was detrimental. In Doom 64 it just works so well.

[@kayeplaguedoc9054]

I really wish Carmack had approved the 60 FPS version of Saturn Doom. And the issue wasn't that the textures were lower in overall quality, but rather that they suffered from Affine Texture Warping. In English, that's that effect early 3D Console games (Especially on PlayStation) often suffered from where textures would appear to swim & warp when you moved around. The port would still have been late to the party... but a 60FPS version of Doom would still likely turn heads. That wasn't common for FPSes at the time on PCs, let alone consoles.

[@GiordanDiodato]

Yeah. I wish Lobotomy had been in charge of the Saturn version. Imagine Doom running on the Slavedriver engine.

[@fedupN]

Wow, I think this is one of your finest works. Bravo and thank you.

[@CTAigis]

Interesting video! Soberdwarf did a great job editing.

[@TDRR_Gamez]

Jaguar Doom wasn't trimmed down due to storage concerns, rather just due to not enough RAM and performance issues. Also, Saturn Doom doesn't feature any code from the 32x version, one of the devs said in a Q&A (in a comments section lol) that PS1 Doom code is all they were given.

[@jeroenboth167]

Awesome i waited for this episode for so long :) i love this channel

[@3DSage]

I learned a lot! Great video.

[@vga1232]

The main reason the maps were simplified was because of memory constraints. The DOS version required 4MBs of RAM, the Jaguar has 2MB. So the so called "engine limits" are lower and they kept butchering the maps until they didn't crash!

[@riv4lm4n]

i liked your intro with the skelet reaching out

[@pootnannies]

i like the brown and dark contrast on the Jaguar version. it would be cool to have that option in any of the current source ports of Doom.

[@bdo333]

6:05 Ive never seen that animation before. I love it.

[@haydens.2755]

Another good doom game to cover is impressive Doom 2 ports: Doom 2 GBA is far more impressive than Doom GBA: it has all the original weapons, monsters, and levels without any cuts. Doom 2 was also on the tapwave zodiac, and the game speed is increased.

[@ClassicDOOM]

GBA Doom II has a customized engine that changed some minor aspects of game play. Also, two of the larger original PC levels had to be split into individual halves, and some others had to have chunks cut out, or barriers added to reduce object and texture loads. Still, it's a great and clever GBA port. Zodiac Doom II is a more accurate port overall, but the controls were pretty bad.

[@haydens.2755]

Classic DOOM Interesting, I guess there were technically some level design cuts. Still, you're getting the complete Doom 2 package with the GBA version. Too bad it's so expensive...

[@GiordanDiodato]

the only real cut was green blood instead of red (since it's rated T for Teen) But that's a small compromise

[@handlessuck589]

3:57 Burger Becky! Hero of the 3DO version and the first national game tournament champion in history (Space Invaders, 1980)

[@dennisanderson8663]

Thanks for the video! I've been interested in porting some Doom wads to console and I wasn't sure which version runs the best.

[@SomeOrangeCat]

Burger Becky also made some of my favorite old school MS-DOS Rpgs!

[@VaderTheWhite]

In a future Doom Punching Weight, talk about the odd GBA port of Doom II. Why? It, unlike its predecessor, doesn't use the Doom engine. It uses some other GBA FPS engine.

[@QuasarEE]

The primary limiting factor that would make the fully textured PC levels impractical on PlayStation isn't storage space but rather texture memory - the PSX version runs extremely tight on available RAM as it is. There are very strict limits imposed on the amount of textures and sprites that can be used per level.

[@ClassicDOOM]

Yeah, a main reason the Arch-Vile was cut from the Doom II Episode was that it came with a pile of artwork.

[@SammyRenard]

The problem about simplified level design wasn't storage but available memory. If you look up the Doom 32x 090694 prototype (Which still has the PC textures and levels), you'll notice firsthand how unstable the framerate was and that will make you glad they made those compromises. Doom on the snes didn't have that problem despite having the PC levels because it was technically a 3d-accelerated port via Super FX 2.

[@DroBONILLA1]

One Word to describe your vids: Quality. Great Work! Cheers!

[@bfish89ryuhayabusa]

Nice foreshadowing with a quote from Rebecca Heineman on the Jaguar.

[@ZDWario]

8:42 No mention of the doom guy face splatter. That was pretty cool.

[@gru3som3rick]

Great episode!!

[@shihadrocks]

This was so cool! I just went looking for a side by side comparison of the Doom ports after some nostalgia for the SNES version. What I found was so much better! BRB looking for the 3DO soundtrack hahaha

[@demonic88]

great vid, loving the channel :)

[@otaking3582]

Damn, I hope the footage of those FMV sequences still exist somewhere. They would be hilarious to watch!

[@HazmanFTW]

That music for the 3DO sounds pretty cool

[@ikagura]

The only good thing about that version heh

[@Revegelance]

Regarding the Saturn version's box art - what better way to stop a skeleton from fighting, than to light it on fire!

[@MidnightMechanic]

The screenshots on the Saturn's case were also used on the Collector's Edition for Doom on PC, so they've been used for a long time apparently.

[@soundclock2939]

I love 3DO Doom's soundtrack. Yeha tahst right fight me. I love the original as well but 3DO is a unique separate style of the music. Becky herself is also a hero to make something like this within WEEKS. She really is a legendary part of Doom history. We salute you.

[@Rogerztheurbanlegend]

That poor woman. Do you have any plans to elaborate or flesh out her full story, all games and such? It may even garner you a good interview at some point. I will say, the SNES version was poor, but dammit, I loved it and Wolfenstein 3D. (mainly because my dad wouldn't let me play on our PC...but it was ok for him to...lol). I wanted to say thank you for continuing what you do. You were one of the inspirations for my failed attempt at reviewing a game, so I am looking at donating on patreon, with the hope that one day a few of the obscure games I enjoyed growing up could get at least a bit of play on your stream. Keep up the good work, both of you.

[@benredfield6643]

Her own account of the whole development process is here, on her channel, and what a disaster it was. What an incredibly skilled programme she is, I'm honestly amazed at how she got it to work at all. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHPFepyiZ62Dibc

[@GiordanDiodato]

here's something interesting about Doom on SNES: Not only does it have mouse support, but it also has SuperScope support.

[@Soonjai]

Speaking of Doom 3 on the Original X-Box: That and the Half-Life 3 Port for the OG X-Box fit the Punching Weight Bill pretty well if you ask me.

[@cacomeat7385]

Soonjai _half life 3_

[@Soonjai]

Ooops, meant Half-Life 2 :D

[@GiordanDiodato]

I'm thinking he should talk about the Xbox 360 version of Quake II, since it was the first game on the Xbox 360 (and perhaps first console game in general) that has 1080p support.

[@BenzaieLive2]

spent my 3rd grade on SATURN DOOM :(

[@TheRealJochen]

Spent a lot of my childhood on DOOM3: BFG Edition on 360

[@adrig1830]

WHY WHY DO YOU DO BUY DOOM ON THE SATURN WHY

[@barry-allenthe-flash8396]

OOOOH! _That's_ what the stupid Jaguar NumPad was for!? God, it almost makes sense now! What black magic has Doom Jaguar cast to pull off that!? Like, it makes you think: was Atari actually looking at 3D games at the time and thinking "RTS and FPS are popular now, we have to future-proof for those.... and they're pretty complicated. Maybe we should get some sort of "number keys row equivalent" onto this controller" Also, SOMEONE NEEDS TO FIND ART DATA'S DOOM FMV CUTSCENES! They had to have shot SOMETHING with that puppet and those people and the greenscreen.... I NEED TO SEE THAT Oh, and also, the M2 happened. 3DO's follow-up hardware to the.... 3DO never materialized _as a console_ , but somehow the thing made it's way to market re-jiggered as an Arcade Board used exclusively by Konami for a very brief amount of time. The only game I can recall that runs on the M2 is their super-obscure fighting game, "Battle Tryst", but it's a real game. There are others. They run on the M2. Might be worth some researching/looking into.

[@StopSkeletonsFromFighting]

Good point, but for the sake of the video it was more accurate to say it didn’t happen as it was marketed for consoles. ☺️ Still, I’m so fascinated with everything that went down with 3do and I’d LOVE to do a deep dive Past Mortem on all the craziness -gk

[@barry-allenthe-flash8396]

Sounds like a killer video in the making :) If/when SSFF drops it, I'll be there with bells on! .... which is a really weird phrase now that I typed it out :P

[@bluebirdsigma]

Don't give too much credit to the Jag. The number pad was a relic of a time(early 80s... Coleco/Intelli doublevision) where people had no idea about how to make a controller and just picked the most common button layout of the time: a phone keypad. Atari just stuck to that thinking it would still work since, well, everyone knows phones? And lo and behold: the 5200 and Jaguar controllers.

[@barry-allenthe-flash8396]

haha - that _totally_ makes sense! That sounds so much more plausible for Atari. Ugh, I had forgotten stuff like the Intellivision and it's weird controller overlays for those controller numpads

[@bluebirdsigma]

And I forgot number pads started earlier with the RCA Studio II...

[@Keanotix]

Had the SNES PAL version of Doom (My dad brought it home one day out of the blue) and it was bloody terrifying hearing the monster noises and not being quite sure what's making them, you know, because of the bad draw distance. Kinda made it creepier in a way. Fun Fact: the SNES version only lets you play the other two chapters on higher difficulties (Hurt Me Plenty and up for Ep2 and UV for EP3). I got as far as Slough of Despair back then.

[@A31Chris]

The evidence now strongly suggests that ids sound engineer was not really up to the task of getting the Jags DSP to multitask like his contemporaries at High Voltage Software(NBA Jam),4-play (Battlesphere) and Eclipse(Iron Soldier 1 & 2) were. This is why it's one of the only Jag games witout sound.

[@superiorduck9416]

I've been waiting for this forever

[@Aquasition1]

I'm surprised you never mentioned the SNES port's online deathmatch. That is probably one of the most "Punching Weight" things ever.