Double Trouble: Autism, Conflict & Double Empathy (Autism & Relationships 12)

[@ChrysSpecter]

My empathetic abilites are so intense that if I focus on it too much I can have a full blown meltdown and the fact that some NTs don't understand that makes my life exponentially harder as a result. I'm supposed to remember that they just want to rant and don't want practical solutions even though their trauma dumping to me actively makes my day(s) harder. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. 😢

[@andreaalbert5096]

I relate so much. A coworker can make my day miserable just by her everyday complaining of literally everything (if our boss is supervising our work, if he's not). It brings kind of a gloom into me, and I get anxiety because no matter what, to her everything is horrible. It's frustrating because everyone else seems to think that it's perfectly reasonable, and it hurts that when I raise a concern of mine, nobody acts supportive like they do with her, when oftentimes it's more serious.

[@midnightcat6116]

So much damage has been done to our community from those who decided that we lack empathy.

[@linden5165]

I agree. There are some researchers I look forward to seeing retire and their ideas turn to dust. I am so appreciative of the work of autistic researchers who fight back and help us take control of our narrative.

[@SESKE_5]

And even then all the people who treat us different and talk down to us

[@MrAndywills]

In society, the double empathy problem is biased in favour of neurotypicals. Any misunderstanding from a neurotypical perspective is quickly glossed over and forgotten about. But, in my experience, any misunderstanding from the neurodivergent perspective comes under greater scrutiny and remembered longer.

[@coda3223]

Additionally, all misunderstandings are blamed on the autistic person, even if it's the allistic person's failure to empathize.

[@theedgeofoblivious]

@@coda3223 Not only that, but allistic people often demonstrate a lack of empathy by getting joy in exploiting an autistic person's lack of empathy.

[@coda3223]

@@theedgeofoblivious Autistic people don't lack empathy though. That misconception came about because of allistic autism researcher bias due to the Double Empathy Problem. We don't naturally express empathy the same way allistic people do, and so the researchers, with their own lack of empathy (and imagination) assumed we just didn't have it. The comedian Joe Wells has a great joke about the similar assumption that we don't like humor just because autistic people didn't laugh at the researchers' bad jokes.

[@coda3223]

@@theedgeofoblivious I think some allistics delight in our failure to effectively navigate social hierarchy because it means they're higher up in the pecking order.

[@theedgeofoblivious]

​@@coda3223 I think that my wording may have conveyed intentions I wasn't trying to convey. My intention was more to say "Not only that, but allistic people often demonstrate a lack of empathy by getting joy in exploiting an autistic person's lack of inherent understanding of allistic thoughts."

[@gregjs9665]

Could it be that in some cases, autistic people actually have much more empathy, and might also be more honest-so we end up expressing things about other people that are very accurate and empathic; but sometimes these are things that NT people are themselves not aware of or feel embarrassed or live in denial about? Maybe a big part of the double empathy problem is that autistics don’t always know NTs unspoken rules of “Things You’re Not Supposed To Say Out Loud” (aka “Things That Are A Bit TOO True”).

[@coda3223]

Yes, in my experience, absolutely.

[@jennifergreen6109]

🎯💯

[@eviewilde354]

Exactly!

[@guibiguib]

woord

[@thinkthinkthinksezPooh3]

Perfectly stated! It is difficult to understand why people are so afraid of the Truth. I mean, everyone really appreciates honesty... like when we get a car repaired... but when dealing with people who are honest, they condemn them and tell them to mask that. No, I will not mask such an honorable virtue as honesty.

[@yukisanderson6907]

My husband and I have so many misunderstanding that I am exhausted. We are so different, which makes me so stressful. Your information us so valuable.

[@videocliplover]

Finally someone who understands! I’ve been called entitled when misunderstood too.

[@adrianmargean3402]

A lot of people like arguments and a lot of people like being assholes.

[@LinnyThePersistent]

I married one who argues for sport. I cannot anymore. We're getting divorced. I'm newly diagnosed, but the diagnosis makes so many things make so much sense!

[@marocat4749]

And a lot of people just want to look like the care but dont give a crap. Like that in itself isnt the bad thing, but if going against a bit is being the bad guy, that is messed up.

[@somacat78]

I always kinda thought that they didn't exactly 'like' arguing, or being a-holes - people like that never actually seem happy. More that they have internalized self-esteem issues and a wolrdview that prioritizes projecting superiority or whatever. Of course, I'm probably wrong and just a walking example of the double empathy problem on this. NTs are weird :)

[@harrietwindebank6051]

learning to trust is so very difficult.

[@Jezz_Mcfly]

TRUST = Truth - Respect - Understanding - Support - Time

[@manifesting_goals]

I'm so glad I learned of this channel that helps me better understand my autism.

[@jacquelinecoursey7787]

Super helpful explanation of double empathy. Neurotypicals can use their empathy to be truly empathetic of their neurodiverse peers. I love this episode!!! Thank you

[@jwmmitch]

The more I learn about my autism, the more I see the whole world is suffering due to lack of recognition and allowance that people are different and function differently. I think a lot of NTs also struggle from being forced into "NT expectations"

[@judylandry302]

Why can't we as a community rewrite the DSM-5 to accurately reflect the whole truth of our Autism?

[@ScarryGargoyle]

Im not sure. That’s a good question. Im sure there’s a lot of big pharma Shenanigans going on that prevents us from actually doing that. Or maybe, we just haven’t tried yet. I want to try.

[@robertjohnburton9775]

Putting comments on KZbin can get nasty returns from NTs who do not understand. My mental health has been hurt because of rejection throughout my life. Some people believe they have ownership of empathy on all levels.

[@SESKE_5]

Fr they talk down to us and are always invalidating us, but then have the nerve to call us too sensitive and that we are the problem.

[@robertjohnburton9775]

@@SESKE_5 They sure do Eric Seske, the world is getting mean, especially since Covid. It is making me ill.

[@marocat4749]

Through that might just be socia media making it easier to be anonymous mean. Youwi thfnd it hard tofind creators who dont ca nasty comments. in tht case its just socia media

[@robertjohnburton9775]

You are a cool cat man @@marocat4749

[@adhdself-love]

Why don't you take a page from your own book and not call the other your bad guy?

[@Petertwohig1948]

Thank you for not having background noise (co-called music). Love the content.

[@simplyonemortality8122]

Thank you for putting into words a concept that I have been theorising in my head Quinn and doing so much more eloquently than I have been able to manage in my style of language/attempts at expressing this. A percentage of the people I have tried to express this to seem to assume I am trying to blame them when in reality (or, how I see things in my head and I am trying to convey with language) I have attempted to say there are factors on both sides of an interaction which are relevant - it’s just often that we come at things from different angles and assume or “fill in the blanks” differently sometimes (due in part to differences in processing) too. Assumptions are a major issue in human interactions, interpretations and communication I believe, and I think this heavily relates to this topic and happens a lot more than we tend to realise when it comes to miscommunication and misapprehension (often without the awareness it is happening; which is a part of the wider issue too, I think).

[@paavohirn3728]

In the end cognitive empathy /ToM is assumptions. More or less educated or misguided and possibly correcting as more inputs are received but assumptions nonetheless.

[@simplyonemortality8122]

@@paavohirn3728 I agree, autistic or not people make assumptions, our environments reinforce doing so also. I think we perceive things differently and process things differently as different humans and therefore ToM applies to people whom are autistic and non autistic as well - just in different ways/over different aspects i.e. social thinking styles among Autistics. The same with “literal thinking” - there are times Non autistic people are very literal in their interpretations of Autistic behaviour and communication etc, their “literal” is just different from our “literal” and this is relevant to differing perspectives and processing of information etc. This I think is why it can be difficult for people whom process information differently from one another to understand that there are factors on both sides i.e. perspectives / differences in how we process things which lead to us misunderstanding each other. That, and how that then can affect our communication styles, among other factors etc. I think applying ToM to Autistic people only and framing it as a deficit / lack of ability, is part of the issues that lead to misapprehension around Autism/Autistic people. Non autistic people also don’t have strong ToM when considering things from an Autistic perspective i.e. learning differently from things in our environments etc, yet, whilst there may be some comedy sketches around this topic (of how autistic people would define a “disorder” if attributing such to “neurotypicals”), we haven’t tried to label non autistic people as deficient. People are different and come from different angles of perspectives and perceptions.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Thank you so much! This video is exactly what I have been missing from my "Disability & Co 206: Neurodivergense -- autism & ADHD" playlist. I also added it to my "Disability & Co 101..." playlist, this issue is so fundamental to our lives. Both playlists are public, as are all my Disability & Co lists, so when I post about them somewhere, I may be sending people your way -- I hope you don't mind? I started to make those lists originally for young fanfiction creators (basically fellow Oakwyrm fans) who want to write authentic disabled, chronically ill and/or neurodivergent characters in their works, but I am realizing that such lists may be also otherwise useful. Keep up this valuable work! You are adding a unique voice to autistic & otherwise neurodivergent KZbinrs.

[@trefod]

I know I don't lack empathy. But I lack the ability to recognize when others lack empathy. I believe their guile and get cheated all the time.

[@rainbowconnected]

I have a hard time with that too. I tend to assume that my CPTSD is blinding me to empathy that they're showing, but I'm not feeling or perceiving. Or if people know that about me, they tell me that's what's going on. But sometimes I think it just really isn't there.

[@sisil8919]

Very enlightening, thank you Quinn!

[@thetakongpancake1003]

My cat's name is Quinn. Quinn The Etheral. If affective empathy controls the body maybe it is active when we are thinking with our heart rather than intellectually thinking with our brain as both have minds of their own.

[@Sporezlol]

Great video! Excellent explanation of the double empathy problem!

[@paavohirn3728]

Great presentation! I appreciate the clarity you brought to this confusing but extremely important topic!

[@RoundSparrow]

I always raise my hand when science discussions use "empathy" and completely avoid the word "compassion". Because Buddhists and Jesus claim to teach, acquired / learned, "compassion" by study and Yoga, etc. How you describe "cognitive empathy", but directed by clergy and special venues.

[@thinkthinkthinksezPooh3]

thank you, very healing! Validation is a relief. God bless your work! Praying you are blessed!

[@hayuseen6683]

NTs are often so confident that they get upset over an interpretation and then refuse to change their mind after that interpretation is directly contradicted. It's impossible to communicate when the other person believes you're saying something you're not and can't admit they're wrong about it; Going down a rabbit hole of you intentionally hiding your meaning to escape judgement but still aggravating others, or negligently being impolite when you know better. Things NTs will do. I think it's partly because their affective empathy is reading into the situation and once they're in the fight mindset they can't reason that their response is a misread, so they assume their approach is correct and conflicting cognitive info is the misdirection. Because an NT would be trying to be a dick if they acted that way. Too many people refuse to believe Autism even exists, some saying it's an excuse for who they think is NT to be naughty.

[@RettI-mi8vj]

Arrogance they don't even know they have.

[@RE-kk2cq]

Morality is a spectrum of interaction which can be defined according to geometry and function. So yes there is a definitive spectrum of morality, its just most people refuse to accept the truth of where they really are, and endlessly make up excuses

[@PennyTe]

Lol u nt or nd?💀

[@alexdiaz4296]

YUPPP!!! People are selfish arrogant assholessss and somehow it is because you made them be. Every. Single. Time.

[@autiejedi5857]

Brilliant discussion, Quinn! Thank you 💜

[@kawag6356]

I appreciate this so much, it’s really makes a difference to understand the why. It’s so accurate to my life and that feels so validating

[@jamesmcmahon7837]

Excellent explanation Quinn. Really helpful hearing you walk through it as makes easier to explain to others 🙏🏼🙂

[@alexadellastella5247]

Your work on this channel is gold! Thank you so much for what you do this is so helpful! Professionals from the field should watch your videos really

[@JoelFelsenstein]

Loved the video Quinn

[@leilacarpenter10]

Great video . The best I’ve seen on this issue. Love your presentation

[@Autistamatic]

Thank you.

[@willamthewisp2646]

Always appreciate your work.

[@GuiRSYT]

Found your channel today, it’s been a bless. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and wisdom with us, I really apreciate it. Just find out that I’m autistic with 31 y/o, the ADHD really messed up for me to discover the missing link of the autism. Keep up the excelent work 😁

[@Crunchy_PB]

Thank you so much.

[@Dwamak]

Thank you, Quinn

[@milkbunnies]

Excellent presentation of information on this important topic. 👍 subscribed

[@abigailmcewan]

Thank you for such insight, wisdom and clarity Quinn. Your words are profound. 🙏🏻

[@user-mk7zo9gq9r]

Thank you. Going to show this to my partner. 😎

[@thinkthinkthinksezPooh3]

excellent explanation of how the NT brain works around us!!

[@thinkthinkthinksezPooh3]

excellent explanations! Please write a book if you feel that is your call. Either way, just amazing. Have you done a TED talk? Thank you!

[@towzone]

Another great video. Respect and appreciation.

[@bennyboyd6579]

Thank you

[@craygraydeb1916]

Thanks for sharing this

[@ExistenceUniversity]

My issue with this theory is the affective as instinct. It appears to me that affective is more just automatized "cognitive empathy". In which case you have just empathy, that which you have automatized and that which you have not.

[@marocat4749]

Agree, empathy should be what is above the average reacting to things, its seeking or having learned awareness how that does harm. Not reacting automatic without that experiences wanting to like , be empathic about understanding, above base reacting. Agree empathy should have a bit of awareness about that and continue to learn to not just fall into automatic reaction, or learn from them. Like any concius effort there. If that makes sense.

[@knrdvmmlbkkn]

13:58 Oh - it's *that* simple.

[@assistantto007]

My NHS gp could benefit from watching this...

[@Jezz_Mcfly]

Great Video - Thanks (Instant Sub) ✌

[@marocat4749]

Maybe cognitive empathy needs to be nicknamed super empathy. To gt that across?!

[@marocat4749]

Also why isnt that called literally double miscommunication problem. I dont think thats what most people would undrstand as empathy, so its even started being biased.

[@Gandalf_the_quantum_G]

Hahaha at the beginning I was laughing at my phone alone in my flat, because I imagined someone raising their hand in full conviction. To add something to the topic itself: from my experience dysfunctional conflicts in romantic relationships, as well oftentimes in platonic relationships, correlates from narcissistic mortifications, which get triggered accidentally by their partner doing something or acting in a specific way. Empathy by the way is a way of sentient observation of a situation between psychological individuals. This is not even a innate feature of a baby, but it builts up for many reasons, one of them because the mother/caregiver reacts related to the baby in a way like it has already a full developed self and reacting to the expressions of their baby oral needs. The thing about mirror-neurons is absolutely right, but just their existence and their function does not form an empathic observation on its own, therefore a (normal) empathic environment is necessary, otherwise the child can't integrate the sensory input into their inner psychological structure. So what you call intuitive Empathy is not really existing, but what humans call intuitive thinking is a way of extremely fast processing of informations (at least that's how one perceives it), based on experiences in the subconscious. But it uses the same way of thinking style than if we use what you called cognitive Empathy, just that one is conscious and the other isn't. Everyone - if autistic or not - is able to use the empathic way of observation - as far as the self is not totally destroyed or fragmented. So backt to why I think people don't understand each other in general, not just autistic/nt folks, is because people aren't aware of their traumas in their childhood and the resulting narcissistic "miscast" to some of their selfobjects, for that reason they get into arguments and fights, which are destructive, because - from my experience - humans tend to reserve specially their romantic partners with narcistic libido, which brings with it, that they understand their partner as self-related. So if the partner does something e.g. unusual they experience the inner feeling of a threat to their "self". But because the self has a self object of itself, which is mostly as well attached with narcistic split off parts, they have to immediately go against this menace in an affective way. That's a mess and I realized, that the main part of all people are using these dysfunctional structures. It's worth to read Kohut for that topic, made my life so much more relaxed and free of all anxiety. Edit: another thing I remember right now is, that there are humans, which do have related to a very specific kind of narcissistic abuse in their childhood generated a very special and outstanding way of empathic observation due to the need to develope this way of observation for their survival of their "self". That makes them very "gifted" psychoanalytics, if they're therapists in real life or not. I don't know, if what I said really relates to the video, I hope so, but somehow that was, what was in my mind listening to it. Howsoever I love your videos!

[@lordblazer]

you don't realize you did it, but you literally just distilled Hegel's Dialectic to a much more understandable level.

[@alexdiaz4296]

@@lordblazeri LOVE this community!!!!

[@alexdiaz4296]

This was an outstanding lecture! Bravo.

[@Gandalf_the_quantum_G]

​@@alexdiaz4296 I just got notified at 4:25 AM that I received a new answer on a comment. Like it's been the most normal in the world, I got awake completely and clicked on the link in the mail. Then I read my own comment since I couldn't recall it at first anymore. While reading I thought "this is one of the good texts", remembering by then that I read my own text haha and was amused about this unintentionally conducted self-praising and in the end remembered it again how I was writing this comment. Thank you :) for your comment. I hope I'll always remember to turn my phone on quiet during the night hours from now on anyways. Fun experience anyhow. And in half an hour the alarm had rang anyways.

[@Gandalf_the_quantum_G]

​@@lordblazer You're right. I've had no idea. It just bothers me when I don't know things. Now I've to read myself through all Hegel works, study his life and at best write myself a new interpretation of his legacy.

[@Jordan-n1m1u]

What about an autistic parent who refuses to get diagnosed or acknowledge their disorder... and refutes my diagnosis. Htf do i cope with that?😂

[@coda3223]

Public Service Announcement: Neurotypical =/= non-autistic !!! Non-autistic = allistic Neurotypical = not experiencing any divergence from the normative expectations regarding the neurology of the bodymind Neurodivergent = any divergence from the norm, including bipolar, ptsd, tourettes, TBI, personality disorders, etc

[@Salvnite]

When I can't get a diagnosis because I have to move heaven and earth to get it...the test.. I get unmotivated and it feels like I am in a double bind situation by the world making me feel crazy...by default. I feel different though I could imagine different ways of life and not all lives are supposed to be cookie cutter or prim and proper... so being in a guessing state wears on me especially living in these times...😅

[@ExistenceUniversity]

0:30 Hi, it's me

[@assistantto007]

I have a pair of those shoes

[@ulfpe]

Empathy is NOT a human exclusive

[@turtleanton6539]

😊😊😊😊😊