Douglas Murray On Victoria’s Secret Betraying Body Positivity

[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you legends. Watch the full episode with Douglas here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4DJkJZrmd-Mg7s. Get a 20% discount on your first order from Maui Nui Venison by going to www.mauinuivenison.com/modernwisdom

[@b_uppy]

Generalized body positivity is silly, and creates more problems for those with painful fat disorders as it may prevent them from getting appropriate treatment. We need more education on fat disorders to prevent people needing expensive, painful procedures later, as well as research to find optimal diets for various subtypes, as well as general early treatment. Medical professionals need a lot more education to be proactive rather than being overly concerned about the woke agenda dictating the narrative. There is a line ehere we can distinguish what is truly positive and what is harmful.

[@barbarakauppi9915]

What a shameful waste of Murray's considerable intellectual and language talents over such drivel as lingerie sales. It's the epitome of a fluff piece, Mattel's re-pinked Barbie couldn't have been any worse..

[@patrickdodge916]

The ice-cream analogy was spot on for why/how they target the young with these disingenuous movements.

[@ADB-zf5zr]

@@b_uppy The percentage of people with actual "medical disorders" is very small, those people can see their general health provider, be referred to a specialist and get specialist help, or they can simply watch KZbin videos, and read comments that may of may not be accurate or true, and may or may not be influenced by them. I must repeat, the percentage of people with actual "medical disorders" is very small, a fairly large number use this as an excuse, but I note, the amount of people that use this as an excuse if far, FAR lower than it was a couple or so decades ago, and this is a good thing as fewer people are looking to excuses, and more to proactive action to be healthy, and I wish them the best of luck.

[@banistersmind]

Two weeks ago, I had to jump on the chest of a 150kg patient who went into respiratory arrest that then evolved into cardiac arrest following surgery for obstructive sleep apnoea. Body positivity is a menace to society.

[@edwardharley9]

yes, and what about the covid deaths? That certainly has not been over reported.

[@sorbabaric1]

Ventilation perfusion mismatch is real.

[@artisaprimus6306]

Thank you for saving lives. Please tell people being obese isn't cool ,trendy or positive.

[@elenoresebastienne8453]

Harrowing experience...I am overweight and it is quite dangerous.. Difficult this...

[@LeeJahn-ih9xu]

@@gallopinggoose7997😮 can’t get that image out of my mind

[@MartyMcK]

Celebrating “Body Positivity” is as dangerous as celebrating anorexia and bulimia as legitimate weight loss methods.

[@kenjifox4264]

Who celebrates anorexia and bulimia?

[@Cwgrlup]

And now Ozempic

[@liannemarie2504]

​@@kenjifox4264well, their did used to be something called Pro Ana which was pro-anorexia but it got shut down because it was harmful. But people don't seem to feel the same way about this body positivity. Most people are intelligent enough to realize that anorexia and bulimia are unhealthy but they want to act like being overweight

[@kenjifox4264]

@@liannemarie2504 it’s not a matter of being intelligent. People that suffer from anorexia and bulimia are fundamentally experiencing a mental illness that is manifested in a very specific way relating to body image. Mental illnesses do not depend on intelligence or wisdom, they are a manifestation of severe mental trauma. In these cases the person has an unreasonable and illogical fear of being fat, and they believe they are fat, so they try to cope with really unhealthy ways that eventually lead to death. This fat body positivity movement is evil because it is predatory upon women who feel insecure with their body image. This ideology lies to women telling them being fat is normal, that there are zero health risks, and that anyone who says otherwise to them is hating them. You see, it brainwashes women into believing themselves as victims and everyone else as evil oppressors. It’s Marxism.

[@headlesschicken99]

​@@kenjifox4264 Lizzo is morbidly obese, not overweight (somewhat healthy) as much as an anorexic is not just a person with a slim frame but a dangerously underweight human ar serious health risk.

[@BulldogLady347]

I went to the VS website a few weeks ago for the first time in probably 5-6 years. I was shocked and completely turned away by all the overweight models in lingerie. There’s nothing “positive” about obesity.

[@parsith7620]

Their PINK line is now so ugly... I am a WOMAN and I like looking like a WOMAN... everything is gender neutral.... ugly colors, ugly styles... NOTHING feminine..... so, Pink is off of my purchasing list, for myself and for the many gifts I have given to my female friends and family.

[@cherylchristian5673]

Speaking as woman who has dealt with obesity for many years, I applaud VS going back to attractive models for their products. I would never wear them because I would look awful in them, but I don’t want to see their products on obese, unattractive people. My husband is always trying to get me to wear sexy lingerie, but that time has passed and I want to be comfortable. As far as regular clothes go, it’s nice to be able to get clothes that fit, but I want to hide my faults, not show them. I am working at losing weight currently and it is slow going, but I know being even mildly obese is dangerous.

[@tinahillsdon2776]

Totally

[@tonyng9]

When they appeal to everybody, they effectively became the Walmart brand and they are competing on value. They lose all luxury or status associated with the brand, it's the generic "everybody" brand. It makes no sense to have Victoria's Secret stores when it is a generic brand, because people can just walk into a Walmart or Target and buy generic clothing.

[@dbtest117]

@@cherylchristian5673 I succeeded to loose fat by eliminating carbs from the menu. It's called ketogenic diet that promotes fat burning and reduces the hormone insulin which is the hormone that tells your cells to open up and store extra glucose. Which the cells then convert to fat, and in case there is no end to extra glucose you stay in storing mode. Removing carbohydrates directly addresses this function makes you less hungry which enables you to eat less calories as you aren't constantly hungry.

[@gabrieljordan8015]

'You cant change reality simply by screaming at it' - Bill Maher

[@BrominatedVegetableOil]

Its not the model that sells. Its the transposition in the mind that you gain a level of attractiveness by having the same products. People want to buy into a higher standard, not down.

[@blondie9422]

Exactly!! People chase elusive beauty. It plays into our fantasies and makes products feel worth spending money on. I don’t want to spend my hard earned money on products that overweight Karen from next door would wear.

[@blondie9422]

Exactly!! People chase elusive beauty. It plays into our fantasies and makes products feel worth spending money on. I don’t want to spend my hard earned money on products that overweight Karen from next door would model.

[@Khan-rz8qi]

The problem with body positivity is that there’s a minority of people trying to force people to look favorably towards undesirable builds. Body positivity will never be universally taken seriously because ideal body types will always be ideal. Thats like trying to make 5’6 men more desirable to women than men who are 6’4, you can gaslight yourself into believing that’s possible all you want, but that’s never gonna be the case. Body positivity is only a way for people who don’t fit these ideals to feel better about themselves.💯

[@msnewsenior]

Kind of like how Victoria Secret models are a of the female population yet women are supposed to die trying to look like them because they are the standard of beauty

[@MickeyMichaels348]

I'm 5 foot 7 and a half!

[@NH-pi5dw]

​​@@msnewsenior"supposed to die trying to look like them".... Couple points 1. Every Victoria Secret's model ever featured has been alive while being featured in their adds, so death has never been a requirement to get on their payroll, quite the opposite. 2. If you believe you should kill yourself trying to lose weight - that's an intelligence problem. That's an "I'm too stupid to research how to get in shape properly" problem. You're suggesting that it's not the responsibility of the individual to make choices that won't leave themselves malnourished? Maybe you need to rethink your mindset. It's not a stranger's job to make an individual research and take proper steps to achieve health on an individual level. I mean - I have never done any research myself to back up this statistic: but I would guess that somewhere around 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999(probably a lot more 9's)% of women who have been alive since Victoria's Secrets came into existence have NOT starved themselves to death in an effort to look like a lingerie model. You just sound like another proponent of "victim" mentality. Now THAT is a killer. Edit: As a dude - to your "standard for beauty" nonsense - I can ASSURE you that every man alive who is into women has found far more women attractive who were never in a magazine, than women who were. That's just garbage spewed to try and claim most men think a certain way, that almost none of us do. I've never known a single guy in my entire existence who believes nobody outside the models for a certain lingerie magazine qualify as beautiful.

[@JT-bc5cd]

“Body positivity” as it is presented is a lie. There is nothing “positive” about being disgustingly unhealthy.

[@PlanetShlorpian]

It's all body positivity until there's a fat 5'5 man in the mix.

[@MaggieFuchs]

"Shallow pond of empathy" that's a great line.

[@paira23]

Don’t you miss the days when body positivity was about things in your body that you can’t realy fix? Height lost of hair, skin diseases, aging etc. Glorification of obesity is just destructive and unhealthy

[@proudatheist2042]

I agree! I miss the original Body Positivity which meant to show girls that models are air brushed, digitally altered, with professionally done makeup. The goal was to get girls to live their realistic selves and not compared themselves to a model who had her own image altered.

[@BlazingMagpie]

@@proudatheist2042 What they get now, instead of models you can infer are fake, is top 1% Instagram influencers and OnlyFans models. The algorithms hold them hostage for most of waking day, only to constantly show them women they feel they can't compete with at any level.

[@khymaaren]

My conspiracy theory that I've just made up is that the very unhealthy body positivity movement was devised by the producers of ultra-processed food, which is nearly all food companies these days.

[@niknikky]

To be fair, body positivity has its roots in the fat acceptance movement.

[@jonashormann5700]

I don't mind the body positivity that talks about disfigured people who have loss of limbs or skars etc, but that part gets completely overshadowed by glorification of obesity.

[@azuth11]

"You ever notice how there are no men getting onboard the body positivity movement?" -Gavin McInnes

[@Gannicus-USA]

Douglas is a cool guy! I love his use of the English language and he’s so freakin logical!!

[@jen7286]

"Steady on the doughnuts" 😂 ❤ Douglas Murray.

[@blondie9422]

That’s enough doughnuts for you today 😂

[@MsGreenmermaid]

Lol I laughed at that too, Douglas is so deadpan 😂

[@abijahmaniaco]

He's impossibly witty with that characteristically cutting English humor.

[@Sbj24]

As a former customer of theirs, it's not just the horrible ad campaigns that made me walk away. The actual quality of the products has gone totally downhill. The last bra I bought fell apart after a few washes. They used to be very well-made before.

[@christiankreps5920]

"Lizzo in a bikini" - what a revolting thought! 😂

[@rrwholloway]

There should be more shame in our society for obvious gluttony, indiscipline and lack of self control.

[@okaySam]

I will support "body positivity" for women, when women support "financial positivity" for men. A fat women is as beautiful as a fitness model, when a poor man is as desirable as a billionaire.

[@redmoondesignbeth9119]

Some of the most interesting men I've dated had more brains than bucks because they chase their hearts desire.

[@nnotny]

Well, well....that's just MISOGYNISTIC!😆

[@okaySam]

@@redmoondesignbeth9119 Of course. Many less beautiful women have better developed personalities as well

[@jonathan4831]

@@okaySam the women I've met who are obsessed only with the financial success of a man typically aren't interesting people. The same is true of men who primarily care about looks in a partnership. The women I have dated have never been obsessed with or even cared about financial success. Beauty and financial success are arbitrary goal posts that don't guarantee compatibility, shared values, or a successful partnership. If your goal is to pursue a person who is beautiful, or financially successful, and who focus those categories as their values then you will need to meet their expectations. Most people with these shallow expectations are terrible partners and end up in divorce, or have chaotic relationships that vary in toxicity and become a distraction. Personally I'd rather have a partnership, and focus on finding someone with shared values and interests.

[@stendaalcartography3436]

That's a good comparison. The LACK is very apparent in both cases. Lack of money and lack of beauty.

[@ileanamuntean7338]

A lot of small successful designers do not use models at all. Victoria's Secret sells rubbish to insecure teenagers.

[@Ja50nkAt]

"Big girls don't sell clothes" Modern feminism in a nutshell

[@TheyCalledMeT]

"Big girls don't sell clothes" but we will force you to try and we will call you a sexist racist bigot for not prefering big girls over healthy sized ones -Modern feminism in a nutshell

[@cgi267]

They don't sell skinny clothes

[@metgirl5429]

As a dress maker pattern maker designer of 50 years experience I have also run a production room at the same time …. And had a designer boutique business for thirty years The hardest thing was to explain to brides in particular if your a size 14/16 you are not going to look like the size 8/10 model ……. My suggestion was trust me I will make you look beautiful in you body shape …… accept your shape …. If your not happy try and get “into shape” … Any one can look beautiful … beauty is with in …… being obese is another story all together♥️

[@hagestad]

Lets not forget that Victoria Secret was run by Intelligence and using underage models to get politicians and rich people compromised. Jeffrey Epstein was basically doing whatever he wanted there. Jean-Luc Brunel was his buddy in that. Those 2 were running this behind the scenes not Les Wexner. Les Wexner was doing other CIA stuff like buying Air America airlines lol. Not even kidding. Magically when first two died Victoria Secret went chubby.

[@paulmurgatroyd6372]

@waltersobchak1719 Yeah, they should be selling doughnuts.

[@TheLastSongbird124]

'Body positivity'.... a way of saying I don't want to stop eating! Is this really what we want our kids to relate to and follow?

[@critical_always]

Exact. It was hard back then too. Try 21% interest mortgage repayments on your first house early nineties in NZ.

[@Maikigai]

Here’s my thing… You wanna be fat? Be fat. But don’t dare pretend you’re not putting your health at risk.

[@esterhudson5104]

The end result is your tax dollars towards that willful ignorance.

[@vivianmunoz6553]

And don’t expect ME to pay with my taxes for your expensive health issues , your surgeries or the bills of your psychiatrist!! 😡😡😡

[@txdmsk]

Body positivity needs to be put into a body bag.

[@icedriver2207]

Marked "Wide Load"

[@fiddleronthebike]

how did we get to the point that taking hot girls to show the beauty of underwear became a controversial decision, at the same time celebrating extremely unhealthy obesity being fine... most of us seem to be absolute mad

[@sbffsbrarbrr]

No, not most of us. This is just ridiculous virtue signaling by these companies like Dove and Victoria's Secret. The companies listen to a minority of very loud activist voices and the rest of use wind up having to suffer it. Certainly there is a need for plus size clothing but it's a separate market I think. It should not be lumped in with everything else all the time.

[@kemikunle9360]

It’s funny because Aerie made a sh*t ton of money with non-airbrushed models and VS lost a sh*t ton of money and switched to this… then continued to lose money, and now we just want to say “body positivity loses money.” VS wasn’t financially viable with hot models either in recent years

[@drywallpuncher1882]

Because the minority is insecure

[@MrJSarcasm]

"It's a parable Douglas, fucking hell. " - Chris Williamson

[@TimAnnear_1961]

My view is that society has pushed the boundaries of acceptability beyond where it should be and those that have the balls to say enough is enough and stand against it are deemed to be the bad guys. When is society going to recognise that the journey to anarchy is well on its way?!

[@foxriver9156]

I recently did a deep dive into what is “anarchy”. The pure original definition is actually a very high order of social organizing. It’s well worth studying. The term has been co-opted to mean “destructive chaos” which genuine anarchy is not. Anyhow, I for one welcome more anarchy.

[@TimAnnear_1961]

@@foxriver9156thanks for letting me know that's great info to help me to choose my words more wisely 👍

[@CordeliaWagner1999]

Without ruler meinst selbst Organisation. Wichtig only functions in a Société where Toxin tritt live Green and chronological lying Arendt erwartet live capitalusm does dich Monet. It's Not Hard work that Makes people rich. It's the exploitation of others and to exploit it helps to lie and betray.

[@mattymox86]

That's exactly how Hitler came to reign. Little by little he pushed the boundaries.

[@HumansAreShitFactories]

@@foxriver9156Indeed, people like the OP talk about anarchy but they have no idea what they’re talking about. Also, a journey can’t be on it’s way. Someone or something can be on their or its journey though.

[@uppitywoman3647]

I think the reason people aren't having kids is complicated. First, yes, it's really expensive to have kids and people can barely afford to take care of themselves. Do you want to have kids that you can't feed? Next, it's the transient nature of relationships. Do you want to be a single parent? Do you have parents that can help you raise kids? And finally, society has made it difficult to raise kids. Do you want to risk being labeled as a bad parent, as XYZ parent, to be judged by society because you let your kid do something or not do something that society agrees with, you are a helicopter parent, or negligent, or abusive if you are too strict, or someone just doesn't like you or your style, so they call CPS? Yes, people are that petty. I've seen people lose their sh!t around kids.

[@kelrogers8480]

If you've been listening over the last few years, you will know that the likes of Gates, Schwab, the Pope, amongst others, don't want you to have kids and have been actively working to make sure you don't. So keep on with the excuses, and play into their hands. You can keep all your money for yourself, and still go partying well into your fifties. You'll probably look ridiculous, be hedonistic and immature, but hell, think of all the Xtra vodka you'll get to knock back!

[@Jazzomuch]

This interview by my two favorite human beings is just the best. The chemistry is palpable.

[@gaynordurdy7689]

I do believe Mr Murray is flirting!!! Y' little Minx

[@Jazzomuch]

How can he not? Look at both of them!

[@oggyoggy1299]

I’d say hey boned one another.

[@pinchebruha405]

@@oggyoggy1299Chris is not gay silly

[@connernickerson5509]

​@@pinchebruha405we can always dream.

[@danielpearl923]

Candidly, I don't respond to overweight models even though I am plus size myself.

[@matthewedwards6025]

There's also a question of how much influence the DEI crowd at Blackrock has in these decisions. How hard have they been pushing companies to adopt these attitudes "or else?"

[@kenjifox4264]

They and Vanguard are directly responsible for all this nonsense, along with the indoctrinating woke movies.

[@thisguy3032]

"steady on the doughnuts"... - D Murray Love this

[@seancsnm]

A large part of of what we find beautiful is what is healthy. Real body positivity is to love yourself, and to love yourself is to treat yourself well; to strive for health in body, mind, and soul. Often that means doing hard things to improve your state. Somehow self-love has morphed into pretending that there's nothing wrong with you or your lifestyle. It's true that a large part of health is genetic, but even in that case it's still delusional to pretend that you are a genetic 10 just like the the few who hit the genetic jackpot while in reality you're dead average.

[@sorbabaric1]

Yes. And financial health. It includes not wasting your money to buy things to eat or drink that are harmful to you, and a waste of money.

[@Carla-ns8rx]

I guess it got started as a reaction to those anorexic model and standards... 6 and 8 year old girls worried about their weight? feeling unhappy with therir bodys just because they don look anorexic?? . And then it came the "pendulum effect" and we got to the other side where its great if you have 3 times the weight you should. I hope at some time we can reach the equilibrium point where no extreme is celebrated, and girls ar not encouraged to have one and only one specific look. Because more important than being preety if fealing good.

[@cdw1523]

The story about the fisherman is actually by the German writer (and Nobel laurate) Heinrich Boll. Its called Anekdote zur Senkung der Arbeitsmoral ("Anecdote on the lowering of the work ethic.")

[@jimmylight4866]

And I thought it was Hemingway.

[@LydiaKrow]

Douglas Murray is always so polite in the way he gets across his ideas - he's never needlessly mean or sensationalist, but he's direct and backs up what he says. Always a pleasure to hear his thoughts. On the topic of clothing brands using fat models, I'm actually surprised to hear VS tried this. I didn't even know they made plus sized anything, so no duh that tactic failed - how did that get through an entire team of people and see the light of day? "Let's go against a brand that made us millions for years, good call!" LOL. Honestly, anyone who listens to a vocal minority and bases a nationwide ad campaign on it deserves to lose money. Ridiculous!

[@sherilcarey7100]

Body positivity from corporations makes no sense. And really many things about body positivity just make no sense without getting corporations involved. I've struggled with my weight and I don't see much in that movement that helps me or anyone else in any real way. I want to be healthier. I've been fighting and clawing my way towards better health for 20 years. Life is full of things that are unfair. I wish I weren't riddled with autoimmune issues. I wish I'd not seen about a million doctors from birth to age 38 who made things worse rather than better. I wish about a million things were different. Suck it up, Buttercup. Lying about how healthy you are or how many people are attracted to unhealthy is just hurting yourself even further.

[@Rellikan]

Lizzo fatshaming her worker was funny af

[@annatanneberger1]

Boomer here. We had way less than the kids today. But we were happy. We played outside until sunset. Without TV, we had supper at table under parental supervision ensuring you chewed with your mouth closed. We kept silent and listened while our parents discussed the news on the radio or in the newspaper. We didn't get pocket money. If you needed bus fare you asked. Mom made all my clothes. Shopping Malls were unknown. People used public transport. Families had only one car. Going overseas was a once in a lifetime opportunity that you saved up for in a special account for decades. A slight digression. My misery started at 14 when my mother died and I became effectively homeless. But I was convinced if I worked really hard I would never suffer the same fate again - being at the mercy of horrible people. So I worked really hard for a bursary (even if under the streetlamp). I never regained any trust in people. So I never got married or had children. I didn't climb the corporate ladder, because I had a voice in my head screaching "who does she think she is!" whenever I considered asking for a raise or promotion. But I was determined to own my own house, so I can lock the door and nobody can kick it in and start in on me. I still drive the Beetle I bought second hand in 1979. Did I have it easier than millennials? The millennials take overseas holidays as a right, owning a car as a right - and then moan about not being able to get into home ownership? Go f--- yourself.

[@valentinivanov3389]

The casual confidence with which both of them conclude that the reason people have less children is fixable is a head scratcher for me. The only thing that stimulates families to have more children is lack of education for women. It is true on a country to country basis, and within the country itself. It is usually poor families who have more children. It is illiterate minorities in my country that have 7 children per family and live in a shack. It is about 2 children for poor families and less than 1 for rich people. I managed to do well for myself and have a wife now, but we have zero interest in having children. And we have many many friends who are like that. Even my mother shares the same view. If she was young today - why take care of children? And that leads to idiocracy and I have no idea how to fix that, nor have I heard even a semi reasonable solution. I would applaud humanity to shrink back to a billion people as it was for 10 000 years, but to do we manage economically? How do you raise children who are smarter and more successful than their parents and in the same time sacrifice their time and money to raise children?

[@LaraLandX]

as a regular woman (not skinny, not plus size) I have consciously NOT bought clothing when it's shown online only on very skinny models, I just cannot see how it would look on my body but yeah, if I see clothing shown only on plus size then I'm not gonna by it either

[@daviddogsbody]

The parable of the fisherman was done as a cinema advert for something about 20 years ago. The ad has always stuck with me. Crap as an advert as I have not a clue what they were selling but a powerful message

[@esthermarcen7587]

for me, body positivity is more about accepting changes in a woman's body over time, like after pregnancy, in my first I was almost the same as I was before, in the second one I retained water and I put 13 kilos on and it has been almost impossible to loos half of them, it was not as be a super thing or supper big woman, I agree with Murray, they should put healthy looking women, natural woman, and very pretty women exist too.

[@r.walker7986]

No, its just accepting your body for what it is in the moment.

[@CordeliaWagner1999]

I personally don't want to see pregnancy damage in a VS show. It might be realistic for mothers and those who plan to become one but VS is not the place for "realistic".

[@r.walker7986]

@@CordeliaWagner1999 its supposed to sell underwear.....

[@liannemarie2504]

I got huge after my second period. It took me a year but I lost over a hundred pounds. But I'm not trying to be mean at all but I don't think if you retained 13 kilos of weight that it was water weight

[@stonedcyclist6392]

Nobody wants to see that on the runway though! Not everyone can be an angel, not everyone is as genetically blessed but that's what made VS special! I don't want to see gross damaged bodies, I want to see something to aspire to, even if I'll never make it to that level I still want to see it instead. Yes, I'm a woman.

[@snoopy63ify]

The early 80’s were tough in the UK. High unemployment and in some areas there were people without any hope of finding employment for over a decade.

[@JasonPummill]

I really enjoy these conversations with Chris and Douglas, they should start a podcast together!

[@mef536]

Chris well done, brilliant interview! Really top top notch.

[@vanessad.2625]

The issue is that Victoria's secret already had an ESTABLISHED brand and they are known for putting beautiful skinny women in their underwear. It went against their brand. Plus, as a curvy woman, I'm not offended by it in the least, it's business. Now if they can just up the quality of their bras I would come back. The quality and price per bra does not work. Let's not pretend expensive badly made bras also didn't have to do with their sales taking a nose dive.

[@SirArghPirate]

Funny thing about body positivity in advertising; you often see it related to products like clothes, but never for food or sweets..

[@kevin982]

I'm 54 and I know how hard my father had it but maybe I'm one of a few. I didn't meet my father until I was 6 because he was always working but at the time he didn't make a lot of money even with all the hours he put in. He himself died in 1995 at the age of 49 and that was because he worked himself into an early grave. The night I met him I was up past my bedtime because I was sick but I was afraid of him because I didn't know who he was.

[@chuck275]

Whenever I have seen Douglas recently, it's been linked go the grave situation in the middle east and he's always compelling and has a steeliness about him and trancends a logic whether you agree or disgree with him. But its been heavy heavy stuff recently. So it was a pleasure to hear him talk of the commercial realities and benefits of getting strikingly hot girls into skimpy underwear, for a change (not making light of any issues re the serious stuff!)

[@anhpam9205]

I'd love to see Douglas do some modellling! He is so hot ( I am an older woman, trust tme, he is really handsome!) And he has been so outspoken in favour of Israel during this terrible crisis, he is a great guy!

[@chuck275]

@@anhpam9205 yep, he's a good looking fella and you can also tell he's got himself into good shape recently and making an effort

[@cinnam0n_swirls]

Woman here. Personally, I would like to see lingerie companies feature healthy, normal women. Not women who are 300 pounds or transgender. But not impossibly beautiful supermodels either. I almost never go into mainstream lingerie stores because I feel alienated by them. I don’t see myself in the hot supermodels, nor the “body positivity” models. I want to see advertising geared towards my sex that features normal women, of healthy weight, that have an attainable, approachable kind of attractiveness. Real women that real men view as potential girlfriends and wives. Real women that we can relate to and feel inspired by.

[@madcyclist58]

It's a pity that the most intelligent people are never in politics. Not just Chris and Douglas etc, but also you my fellow viewers.

[@michaelnantell]

There has to be a middle ground and there is, but the media doesn't like to focus on the middle ground because it's boring.

[@joanbeeldens6131]

Can’t wait for the old style VICTORIA SECRETS TO COME BACK IT WAS ALWAYS FUN AND GREAT TO WATCH

[@dameanvil]

00:00 🩲 Victoria's Secret's strategy shift: From diverse models to "bringing sexy back." 01:08 📉 Plus-sized models often don't boost sales in clothing companies; some marketing strategies can negatively impact the bottom line. 02:18 🩸 Body positivity has limits; extreme celebration of morbid obesity could pose health risks and shouldn't be promoted. 03:14 🔄 Society tends to favor short-term empathy for immediate gratification over considering long-term consequences. 05:18 🏠 Economic factors like housing costs significantly impact young people's decisions about starting families; governments' failure to address these issues affects birth rates. 08:17 📉 Intergenerational competitiveness arises due to disparities in living standards between generations; perceptions of past advantages aren't always accurate. 09:41 💡 Historical contexts, like previous wars, significantly influence generational experiences and challenges; acknowledging these nuances is crucial in assessing living standards across generations. 10:24 🦌 ***

[@Frank-nh9fe]

Advertising is aspirational. You sell the dream of what you want to be (or confirm who you already are)vs. what you are now. No one aspires for 300lbs…..

[@aliciar5410]

I don’t understand women’s obsession to compare themselves against people who’s job it is to look fit/healthy/sexy and take is so personal that they call out that company for not being all bodies inclusive. STOP taking it so personal, you don’t have to look like the model, and the company is just doing their job by making the selling item look as best as possible. You don’t see men doing this. Have some confidence! POV 39 year old female

[@okaySam]

Thanks for speaking common sense. Many women do this to themselves by endlessly scrolling social media. It seems very childish to get outraged over other people winning the genetic lottery. Not every woman can look like a fitness model. Not every man can become a billionaire. Time to grow up, accept reality and enjoy life as best as we can.

[@kiara4345]

Thisss!!

[@b4804514]

Dude the problem is this obsession is focused on young girls with no brain power to figure out right from wrong. Adolescent brains do not have the ability to make decisions

[@Alex-ug1qm]

Exactly! It's ridiculous situation that companies don't want to offend some sensitive girl who is unhappy because she's chubby!

[@ChristopherDwiggins]

Men do the same with leaders, forefathers and all that. The conditions needed to make pretty sure a male will grow up to respect women, be courageous, stand on principles, be what we believe socially a man should be..... it's more likely they will fall short constantly throughout their life than not...... Its people striving to be the best physical and socially accepted person. Something to strive to and then religion normal is what picks one up when feeling self doubt, pity and thinking low of themselves. It's a system meant to force the strive of excellence in which they naturally more often will fall short and get picked back up with humility and determination....... That's the good philosophical side. The general reality is it makes production.

[@Charlotte-vp2fu]

Isn't the problem rather that shame doesn't exist anymore....? If I was seriously fat I'd be ashamed about it. And rightly so. (Gluttany is one of the seven sins....) Not to mention beauty. Are we not allowed to make the distinction between ugly and beautiful anymore? Seriously? I'm old enough to remember the supermodels. They were great. Can greatness not exist anymore...? Do we want a world without beauty and greatness?

[@Breca]

I would love to see the beer gut movement LOL

[@MarcellaFlorez-np5wc]

🤮

[@Darksjeik]

There's another factor besides health that plays into this. Victoria's Secret is the champion's league of modelling. The amount of sacrifice and hard work that goes into getting your body to be ready to be featured on the cover is insane. Putting a obese person on there is a slap in the face of those that are making that sacrifice. It's 100% like a marathon where you allow some people to step into a taxi and just drive to the finish line for the sake of having diversity at that finish line.

[@mwatkins7450]

“Its a parable Douglas.. f**** hell!”😂

[@eugeniaskelley5194]

Even with alcohol ads they say, "Drink responsibly.". If you are going to show morbidly obese people in bikini's maybe they should have a warning saying, "Eat responsibly." These people have a food addiction, and they are glamorizing that.

[@carolinemcnulty6169]

I'm not a skinny girl but I take no pleasure in looking at adverts featuring obese or disabled models, and I won't consider brands that use hairy men to model women's bikinis.

[@All-Hail-Gayle]

Body positivity is supposed to be NOT SHAMING others for their bodies. And it includes the "just eat a sandwich" stuff.

[@CordeliaWagner1999]

Is it body shaming to tell someone you don't find him or her attractive because all this fat on them looks unhealthy?

[@All-Hail-Gayle]

@@CordeliaWagner1999 no. you just don't get specific

[@alexandrapomeroy8050]

As a heterosexual woman I want to see clothes and underwear modelled by healthy, slim looking women. Not skinny as that’s unhealthy but certainly not overweight women because that’s as unhealthy as skinny. I was overweight and hated myself I’ve dropped 2 stone and am very much happier and healthier. So let’s stop encouraging obesity and poor health!

[@todesque]

Chris, you're a good guy, but every second you're talking Douglas Murray is not talking. Just feed him short, snappy questions, then sit back and let us breathe in the magnificence that is Douglas Murray.

[@andymac345]

In my first flat the interest rate was fourteen percent, mid eighties. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@HabitsV2]

It's not just businesses that focus on the bottom line. People do this to? When is enough enough? If your decisions are causing you pain, there's only so much cognitive dissonance you can apply. People's pain thresholds might be different, but most rational people have a line where enough is enough. A line where the instant gratification of social signalling intersects with the reality of ones decisions. That is a powerful moment that will stay with a person forever.

[@davidshepherd397]

My issue has always been, just make a good product and tell me why it;s good, don't tell me what to think, don't presume to educate me on morals, just make a product worthy of my earned money and shut up.

[@jpmi7]

Literally just went out shopping and saw posters with plus sized models wearing lingerie, and thought "this looks gross and makes their products look really unflattering".

[@mr.bright_side]

Maybe "Tough Love" as a campaign is a simply-put and strong positive counter force. The "love" aspect emphasizes true caring of others and the will to do actual good for them. The current thing is not motivated by love.

[@bencruz563]

The easy life has never been; it has always taken blood and sweat. The simple life sacrifices luxury. The good life sacrifices space. The unsatified are often unsatifiable.

[@Enjoymentboy]

body positivity can be easily translated into "I don't want to feel bad about something that I can change but refuse to put in any of the effort required to do so, so instead I insist that you praise me for my courage to keep destroying my body... and you have to desire me more for it and if you don't then you are evil and must be destroyed".

[@magicalfrijoles6766]

As soon as I made it into the top 4% of income earners, I also stopped stressing about money and focused on happiness. Funny how all the people saying to not focus on money all have money.

[@Vlabar]

Is attraction a social construct? I think it's natural. We are naturally attracted to beauty. You can't tell me ugly is the new beautiful.

[@kenjifox4264]

The people Pusina body positivity also push the false idea that 100% of everything is a “social construct,” therefore it can be changed. And these people are manipulators so all they want is to seize power and control people like they’re zombies.

[@clownguy]

"Hang on a minute ✋️ steady on the doughnuts" 🤣🤣🤣

[@andrewelliott4436]

"This beer makes you drunk." -.Spike Milligan

[@austinbourke9292]

i ADORE the phrase "STEADY ON THE DONOUGHTS"

[@AdamRK78]

The property market and the pension plans of my parent's generation were definitely much better than subsequent generations. Used to work with a guy who said his father-in-law's pension paid more than his own current (and very good) salary!

[@brucetownsend691]

Attractive models are required where the product is aspirational. People are not inspired by the ordinary mundane things of life: they want something better to work towards or dream about. This is Advertising 101. It’s strange how any one in advertising could have thought putting anything other than hot models in lingerie would work. Maybe they didn’t. Maybe they were just doing what some overpaid morons on the board wanted, knowing it would fail and prove that the advice not to do it was correct.

[@elderoidwicked]

I love Douglas Murray 😊

[@dragoncrag]

I wished someone would tell me " hold on a minute, steady on the donought!" whenever im starting to gain weight, I Need that energy in my life 2:41 , Douglas is such a legend

[@Omeomy]

I’ll do one better. Forget those nasty things ever existed. I’m Gen X er. My parents werent boomers but felt the effects of the ww2. Everyone was like, eat to live don’t live to eat. You got the best groceries possible, staples like meat veg Fruit and oatmeal for breakfast and some bread. Keep it simple. Life shouldn’t revolve around crappy food as if it’s something to be idolized.

[@memoryhero]

word, homey. in short, (concerning OP) if your big dream is to have someone else warn you not to fall into excess, you've already lost, no matter how the game proceeds from there. @@Omeomy

[@asiasimmons9995]

@@Omeomy I agree. Crap food is just socially acceptable addiction often used to self medicate or distract from emotion distress or personal and professional stressors. Same with social media. It’s totally acceptable to spend several hours a day on tik tok. if sometime was getting high that much it would be a problem.

[@eleanorwalmsley635]

​@@asiasimmons9995food is the new smoking

[@DLC1990]

Narcissistic compassion is the name of the game.

[@angelh5762]

Fact is, if you really care you tell the truth. No matter the consequences.

[@jberto8878]

I believe the body positivity idea was originated by the possibility of commercial gain. If a bigger proportion of people are fat or obese, probably someone thought those would provide a bigger share of the market and bigger profits, but to apply that to lingerie's or any other fashion's industry means to have no idea of your customers behaviour. What a failure of marketing wisdom!

[@mkkrupp2462]

Anyone who looks at Reddit Collapse will easily understand why it’s sensible to seriously consider whether you should bring children into the world.

[@MrBlueoasis]

This could also explain why Barbie doll sales have been dropping over the years.

[@K3r0411]

I don’t mind body positivity as such, but I do mind moving the goal posts and calling a ”healthy weight” what is in reality 10 pounds over at a minimum. If you want to gaslight yourself be my guest, but quit gaslighting others. It has real life consequences, because many people don’t even know anymore what a healthy weight really looks like. I think VS needs to split their website into plus sizes, and what used to be normal, but is sadly no longer the norm. It’s hard to choose underwear modeled by someone not your body type.

[@charlesloomis2224]

Woman: “Lizzo is beautiful.” Man: “You are so beautiful. You look like Lizzo.” Woman: “Are you calling me fat!?!?”

[@sy11ll15]

Furthermore for the purposes of equality, why wouldn’t airlines apply gross weight of passenger and baggage in their pricing policies.

[@pah5900]

Steady on the donuts! Murray is so British!

[@katy2163]

Ideals are not universal, the 'skinny female model' is not the body ideal in some parts of Africa and the Pacific.

[@dylan6480]

Just because people who can’t put the fork down don’t like it, does not make it controversial

[@williamwalter4992]

Three rules of successful advertising ... #1: Surround your product with beautiful women ... #2: Surround your product with beautiful women ... #3: Surround your product with beautiful women

[@greenfrog8871]

per uncle Milton Freidman the duty of a corporation is to maximize profits. Someone foolishly thought that the positivity group was an untapped market; more profits are just low hanging fruit sitting right there. Turns out, nope, they won't buy the products and the regular customers get dissuaded from buying the classic products cause they now have a negative connection. Seems like the marketing types have lost their way?

[@keithyoung7]

Like the man said - to look good requires work and pride - in comparison - being fat requires no work. so there you have it - either work or sit on the couch.

[@bikebudha01]

The failure of "body positivity" is that it stupidly tries to say the 'all' body types are attractive. All body types are not attracitve. Fact. What body positivity should be trying to say is "looks are everything, and you can still be attractive based on the combination of looks and personality". So what if you are 50lbs overweight, or don't have perfect bone structure? Men will still find marginally attractive women attractive if they are smart, funny, cool, and interesting. 3 of those things are things you can work on, and make yourself more of. I've had several guy friends dump absolute hotties for reasonably, but much less hot, women because the hotties were striaght up boring.

[@maryfroggatt4910]

It's true. I only buy stuff worn by gorgeous models. ie. Douglas ❤

[@bartfart2123]

"the place you end up is the place you started from" . if i'd have known that 40 years ago i'd have saved myself a boatload of pain

[@SusiBlumentopf]

Marilyn Monroe was the prettiest woman of her time without wearing size zero! She had the normal female figure, not skinny but still beautiful. That size of her should be the norm for cloth and mannequins.

[@DeathAngelZOnel]

I kept waiting for the punchline, only to realize this wasn’t a Mitchell and Webb clip.

[@ruthgrey7190]

I think the problem is what seems to be a war on truth. Suddenly we are told there is only one way to view everything. To make things worse, the view seems to be through a sort of funhouse mirror in which everything is twisted almost unrecognizably. We are not allowed to point out the obvious. I.E. fat is gross, men and woman are different, words are not violence, violence is not love and there is nothing wrong with being white. But we can't say any of this.. We must continue to loudly admire the emperor's new clothes. How do you solve a problem you must pretend doesn't exist? You don't. And nothing makes sense anymore.

[@lindamcquarrie-bowerman3577]

We all have eyes. Some things look good. Some things look distasteful. We are entitled to our opinion.

[@theultimatesuhak]

The anecdote is actuality a Polish rap song from the 2000s called "biznesmen" by a rapper called Łona