dPMR446 Audio Test - Digital vs Analogue

[@daanl9230]

@TDCatTech Can you do a review on the Kenwood TK-3601D or 3401D? And compare these with the Motorola? The Kenwood are license free and are by far the most commonly used in professional environment. Kenwood has dpmr 446 on the 3401d for 5 years now and the 3601d is a newer version which is smaller. The Motorola is fairly new.

[@RC-Fan]

Hi, i just consider between the kenwood 3601D and the motorola xt660. Cant decide. Did you test them? Which one youwould choose? thx

[@Micromation]

@@RC-Fan Any updates any of you two? :P

[@RC-Fan]

@@Micromation not yet :)

[@Xpuc]

Just to chime in, although years later, maybe useful to someone who’s looking into those. I recently got the Kenwood TK-3701D and they are way way better in dPMR than the Motorolas in this video. I hope Motorola updated those at some point. dPMR works so good over few kilometres it’s unbelievable for a 0.5W radio. All crystal clear and practically very low noise floor. Yes some delay but when you’re far away it doesn’t matter. Also tried those in analog with a Baofeng I had lying around and all good and working.

[@mpol701]

​@@Xpucso far never had a pick up on dpmr in north hertfordshire anyway on my equipped sds100, nor one my sds200 with outside aerial, most seem to use the extra analogue and original analogue

[@RozelyLindim]

I think we have to wait for few years until digital radio audio quality as high as mp3 quality

[@techj2603]

Have you done any more videos around the Motorola xt660d?

[@radiosification]

These devices are made for communication, not for listening for pleasure. As long as you can understand it then the device is doing its job well. Complaining that they don't sound nice is missing the point of these devices.

[@tdcattech]

You’re right, but in my opinion, the incredibly low bitrate leads to a lack of intelligibility. Particular when you compare it to the analogue equivalent. The other benefits of digital are massive, but, as you say, it's all about communication and digital could be so much better.

[@Subgunman]

Because of the poor quality many public services do not use DMR. CRITICAL COMMUNICATIONS REQUIRE EXCELLENT AUDIO QUALITY. I think Tetra sounds better than DMR.

[@radiosification]

@@Subgunman The USA uses P25 phase 2 which has the same vocoder as DMR. So you really can't argue that nobody uses DMR because of the audio quality, when P25 phase 2 has the same audio.

[@Subgunman]

@@radiosification I have heard the difference between DMR AND P25. If they use the same Vocoder then why when one listens to the audio produced on an analog radio, there is a massive difference. P25 encoded audio sounds like white noise of an unsquelced radio while the DMR encoded audio sounds like you are listening to fast packet radio? From what I have read they might be using the same vocoder but the algorithm used is far different otherwise a P25 radio will receive DMR audio without a problem. Another issue is there is no "color code" used anywhere in programming the radio data, there is only the NAC code which allows one to access a particular repeater.

[@radiosification]

​@@Subgunman The vocoder has nothing to do with how it sounds when you listen to the signal in analogue. You can send voice encoded in this vocoder (AMBE+2) over any sort of network. You can send it over the internet or even a dial up connection. Are you sitting here talking about how dial up sounds? Or how the radio channel sounds when you send it over 4G or 5G? No, because it's completely irrelevant. Lots of modes use the same vocoder. Yaesu fusion, dPMR, NXDN. They all use that vocoder too. None of them are compatible because they have different packet structures, signalling etc. Even different modulation. None of them would work with each other because the bits are arranged differently for signalling, maybe they have different forward error correction and so on. If any two digital modes/standards worked with each other, then they're not two different modes -they're the same one. Digital standards are nothing like human language. You have to get it exactly right otherwise it just won't decode, so you can try all you like making a DMR radio talk to a P25 radio or whatever other combination of standards you want, and it'll never work in a million years. Two radio standards can absolutely use the same vocoder and sound the same when decoded without being even slightly similar if you listen to them in analogue.

[@alexisappecorina7107]

How's the audio on Midland G18?

[@mikesey1]

Did these two come ready-programmed?

[@michaelloughlin734]

Interesting post my hytera pd365lf radios and my Kenwood tk3410d suffer the same very rare I use digital as using it on pmr 446 seems to not get a great distance as analogue the kenwoods have a built in amplifier feature which in theory just boosts up the garbled transmission....p.s the tascam recorder you use is that the DR40 model?.

[@tdcattech]

DR-100 MKII - MKIII is out now.

[@michaelloughlin734]

@@tdcattech Nice bit of kit....

[@michaelloughlin734]

@@tdcattech Are you going to do a range test on these Motorola's?

[@tdcattech]

Yes. I'll be doing something locally. Probably using the same route as this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmSvi2h5q9GEfa8 so I have a direct comparison to a test I've already done. I'll also be including them in a 27km range test I'm due to do with a friend of mine in the next few months. That one needs a bit more planning though.

[@spig021]

TDCatTech perhaps compare them with your T80’s in a similar 10km test that you did?

[@shodowman1]

Hi! All could anyone tell me I am contemplating picking up a few motorola two way radios and am stuck on the XT660D but looking at comparison videos such as this one I am seeing the audio quality is better over shorter distances using an analog raido such as the XT 420 or XT460? given thst the XT660D has the capability of being integrated into either a work place that has a combination of both digital and analog radios my question is Can the XT660D or XT665D be manually set up to send and recieve in either ie. If audio quality is better over shorter distance using analog can I use the XT660D to send and recieve in analog then have the ability to change it to digital should I wish to use the texting feature on the XT660D or XT665D?..

[@tdcattech]

It couldn’t do this automatically, no. Of course, you could always request the other user switch channels to digital but that would kind of defeat the object. In my experience, although digital is frankly awful compared to the possible clarity on analogue, your ear does become attuned to it and you can understand it better. It depends enormously on the speaker. Some voices almost sound as good as analogue. If you have someone who mumbles, you’ve had it!

[@mpol701]

I use sds 100 and sds 200 and rarely have any issues listening to dmr, dpmr still no users found near me but my local shopwatch, theatre, factories, and even a few vhf farns sound excellent on dmr

[@mpol701]

I gave audio process issues yet most tx are fine oddly I've heard same on radio bring used and it's not as good as my uniden, so can see that using is difficult I've heard airwave tetra and that I do find hard to understand on the police radios, but somehow they seem to understand, but my mate says sometimes he can't understand, but that happened on analogue as well

[@mpol701]

I love it when a user switches from analogue to dmr, or even nexedge, much Rarer uk, as to me love listening to dmr

[@mpol701]

Ans simplex users too less range yes but with my garex I can get simplex dmr from 2 miles or so

[@joanyadhatan]

shame on Motorola, thanks and respect for the honest review!

[@DBMMMMM]

Speech below 300Hz doesnt add anything in terms of intelligibility. But analog is much better that's true for sure

[@robparsons2386]

Everyone jumped onto the bandwagon of digital, unfortunately your correct it just lacks clarity and bandwidth. Im sure this could easily be fixed in firmware revision. I came to same conclusion when testing radio gateways ROIP FM was far superior VS DMR,dPMR dPMR worked better in terms of audio clarity on Icom IDAS sets rob

I think you have missed the entire point of digital! Digital takes out all the noise common on analog when the signal quality degrades!!

[@tdcattech]

I mentioned the low noise floor on digital at about 23 seconds into the video. The low noise is excellent on digital but it still has to be understood. I find this much more difficult than analogue, particularly when a user is heavily accented.

[@timothybrown7792]

There will always be a low noise floor with any digital standard when compared to analogue, but what TDCatTech has said is that the modulated audio should be clear and easy to understand which it usually isnt, especially when a strong regional accent is brought into the mix! and a foreign accent can be far worse. digital radio comms have always been advertised as being crystal clear when compared to analogue, but we all know that simply isnt the case. DAB digital radio has, and still is advertised in much the same way! yet a stong FM station always has superior audio to any DAB radio station. its because most UK DAB radio stations are broadcasting in the Mp2 codec! at 64kbps which isnt even stereo! although many stations are now gradually switching to the newer DAB+ standard which the rest of Europe have been using for ages.

[@arkadiuszweiss]

When I heard digital modulation the first time I thought it was a damaged radio ... Especially when we have a high quality valuable analog radio station from the 80 '- 90', where audio is twice as good as today. The only advantage of the digit is information security. Thanks for the great test.

[@tdcattech]

Exactly. I am also from an era of outstanding audio quality (FM broadcasts). I love new tech, but when we take such a distinct (and audible) step backwards, it makes me question those who make spectrum decisions (Ofcom in the UK). It's a shame as these could sound amazing.

[@darren2589]

Interesting that Motorola has stuck to this same digital codec for years, when there are much better ones out now that use the same bandwidth but have better audio, such as radios with the ambe+ chip. There are better sounding radios for the same price out there now, such as the Anytone D868UV, however admittedly you're straying outside the licence free dPMR rules as they can exceed the power limits and dont have fixed antenna's.

[@radiosification]

DMR and dPMR radios generally all use the same vocoder (AMBE+2). If you used a different vocoder then the radios wouldn't be compatible. So Motorola uses the same vocoder as the Anytone radio you mentioned.

[@PaulMoorhousehankooks]

analogue is bass driven .digital needs voice sampling .

[@don1estelle]

most digital walkie talkies use half Duplex

[@Subgunman]

That’s why P25 is used for Law enforcement in the States. Audio quality is far superior to DMR (aka Mototrbo). If you think DMR audio sounds bad listen to what DMR SOUNDS LIKE on a scanner that decodes only FM, very harsh digital noise. Now listen to P25 on that same FM scanner, it sounds like standard white noise like when one unsquelches their FM radio.

[@delta61]

Audio quality literally doesn't matter that much in coms. The only real advantage of analog radios is that they're less sensitive to some disturbances and in general cheaper. Once you go to more expensive digital radios, analog ones have much worse quality.

[@ElectronicNoobBlog]

To really see improvement of vocoder please do same test, but play music / other noise in background - You will be really positive about end results. Also digital is great improvement on longer distances when you don't hear static. On that close range i totally agree that digital sound bad but ass soon as You get into urban area with lot of NOISE from RF equipment you will hear that on analog and make voice hard to distinguish - on digital You won't even know any RF noise is there, same sound on 1KM and 2KM. It's important to tell it because someone not technical might get impression that dPMR sound bad and does not give any positive result. BTW: I'm thinking about getting that Motorola, have you send SMS?

[@tdcattech]

Digital undoubtedly has many advantages over analogue. I have never tested it with a noisy background. I assume you're saying that the rejection of background noise is much better. I can see that being a huge plus point for pub and club workers etc. Unfortunately, I can't get over how compressed they decided to make the audio. It's typical spectrum planning. Audio quality is sacrificed over everything else. Yes, I have sent SMS using the XT660d. It's basic and feels like using a mobile phone in 1998, but it works and does the job it was designed to do.

[@ElectronicNoobBlog]

@@tdcattech Thank You for reply, Yes , exactly their codec compress most significant human voice bandwidth (I work on DP3600) and i was surprised how well that reject ambient noise that are outside this spectrum. Agree sadly it's to small bandwidth to get good reproduction good thing after couple days You will get use to it and stop noticing. Would You recommend XT660d or something else in unlicensed dPMR segment?

[@thelo4848]

I agree, Digital sounds very weird on all radios, can not understand why Motorola is discontinuing all analog radios.

[@randfee]

they are discontinuing all analog radios... since when?

[@van-gabondramblinrose6398]

I don't like it either.sounds like one of those robotic voices you hear on YT channels sometimes. Being an analogue creature I prefer an analogue voice, though I'm sure as time goes on and components get cheaper they'll iron it out.

[@micjubba709]

Dont get me wrong tho the digital sounds utter crap compare to analogue think the digital could do with a better vocoder and some kind of build in filter and amp to improve the audio to digital on different frequencies i

[@stefanogarani56]

Anslouge N1

[@garygiles63]

Digital was very poor

[@tdcattech]

Agreed. It's horrible. The other digital benefits are numerous but why would audio quality be ignored so much. It's kind of a key part of radio communication!!

[@timothybrown7792]

We have the same issue with digital comms at my place of work although thats with licensed DMR equipment. the staff have said the old analogue system we previously used was much clearer. mind you I believe the DMR standard was originally developed in the 1990s so what do you expect? and dPMR doesnt seem to be any better either.

[@stefanogarani56]

Bello

[@berbel97]

There is a faster way to change the channel. Just dial the number

[@tdcattech]

Did I not do that here? Doh!

[@TetouanEduca]

👍👍👍👍💝💝💝💝❤❤❤

[@ErikTheAndroid]

I always thought DMR sounded like absolute trash, it is harder to understand than analog.

[@tdcattech]

Much harder but if you speak clearly, it’s fine after tuning your ear a bit. Of course, it beats analogue in fringe areas. I always felt it could be better.

[@micjubba709]

The digital is more secure not many scanners can pick up dpmr the analogue channels can be picked up with a 10 pound kids walkie talky. Also the digital is better on distance the analogue will fade away fast and be all crackley

[@One-Eyed-Willly]

My ham radio dmr sounds tons better. Tyt uv390