Dr. Dale Tuggy - "What John 1 Meant" (Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference 2021)

[@trinocarrera3669]

Masterful presentation.

[@estrellagamo9659]

The wisdom/ mind/ word/of God became flesh and dwelt among us in the Person of Jesus Christ to fulfill the plan of the Father regarding the Salvation of mankind.

[@toddstevens9667]

His 4 kinds of interpretations of John 1 mischaracterizes both the dates these ideas were existent and what exactly these ideas believes. He is skewing them to make his interpretation sound better. Just saying

[@architectbiza6117]

thanks to GOD, I worship only one true GOD the father and following the one true Lord Jesus Christ!!

[@estrellagamo9659]

Dr. what about Heb.1:5, Heb. 1:8,--9, Matt. 3:16--17, 2 Cor. 3: 14, Matt 28: 18, all these in relation to John 1.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Dr., what about the prayer of Jesus address to the Father in John 17.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Kindly explain Col. 1: 16--17

[@estrellagamo9659]

What about the benediction of Paul in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[@DEPoole-me3mf]

Trinitarians usually go to John 1:1 to prove their point. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. The same (this or it, houtos) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.” John 1:1-3 King James They do not realize that the “word” (logos) is impersonal. “This (houtos) was in the beginning with God. Through it (autou) everything was done; and without it (autou) not even one thing was done, which has been done.” John 1:3 Diaglott William Tyndale spent most of his life translating the Bible. He translated “This” (houtos) as “it.” The Geneva Bible of 1560 and the Bishops’ Bible of 1568 also translated “this” (houstos) as “it.”8

[@orthochristos]

Yeah, right. You wanna discuss that in actual Greek (Koine, classical, or Homeric, it's up to you) because you don't know what you are talking about...Yes, I am a bilingual native Greek speaker.

[@smalltimer4370]

Another fascinating topic. That said, there are a number of English Bible's translations that were known to translate the word in John 1.1 as neuter. Equally interesting, is that the title(the word) identified in the beginning of creation with GOD, would prove to be more than metaphorical, in-that the Old Testament writings, namely Psalm 33 Isaiah 55, reveals the word of GOD in the form of a living commandment - and perhaps more to the point, where this living commandment can be attributed to the only begotten son, through whom GOD's will is carried-out. Admittedly, I do not ascribe to Jesus' existence being limited to earth, but moreso, that the only begotten son of GOD, through which all things were made, was in heaven in the form of GOD prior-to earth.

[@barriosmarco100]

Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? Proverbs 30:4

[@andys3035]

"What John really meant" 😉 just trust me on this. 😅

[@whatistruth2810]

Forget John 1:1 for a moment. There are other texts we can go to. The Bible is clear that God created all things by Jesus Christ as it says in Ephesians and Colossians. He is the only begotten Son of God. He is not created like we are but begotten of the father full of grace and truth. Philippians chapter 2 tells us that he existed in the form of God but then humbled himself and took on the form of a man. Philippians 2 alone is irreconcilable with strict Unitarianism which denies the divinity and preexistence of Jesus. Subordinationism does not teach two Gods but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. There are two individuals who existed from eternity God and his Son. We see in Revelation that forever people will worship God and the Lamb. Jesus shares the glory that he had with God before the world began. Unitarians falsely assume that to have a divine nature is to be another God, but the Bible says that Jesus is divine but also Jesus himself called God “the only true God” in John 17:3. This false dichotomy forces people into believing in the trinity because they see the divinity of Jesus in scripture and know that there is only one God. Therefore they make Jesus one of the “persons” of this one God. Unitarians who promote this idea are unwittingly helping the trinitarian cause.

[@johnchauke7492]

Philippians 2 never said he took the form of a man but the form of a servant. U and I nor any human being are not in a form of a man but we are man that are in a form a servant. Everyone is misquoting the book for whatever reason. Any definition of Begotten is clearly about something that comes into existence and is not even a word that support anything that exist without a beginning. On top of that, nowhere in the Bible does it say God is one in that sense but it's just your own human understanding and agreement to man-made concepts.

[@whatistruth2810]

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. Phil 2:5-7 It says he was in the form of God and took on the form of a servant COMING IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN. The clear reading is that he was in the form of God and then came in the likeness of men. It really is that simple. Denying the deity of Christ is just as bad if not worse than believing in the trinity. Jesus was begotten as the word says. He was brought forth or generated of the Father before the world began in eternity past. Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Also, the Septuagint and the Aramaic version of Psalm 110:3 say: “ With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning.” The masoretic texts were likely corrupted by the Jews to obscure clear messianic prophecies pointing to Jesus. Psalm 22 is the most obvious, but I believe other messianic passages were changed as well such as the verse quoted above. It is interesting that the NT authors almost exclusively quoted the Septuagint. That is a great topic of study in and of itself.

[@johnchauke7492]

@@whatistruth2810 It is clear to me that you are now still continuing to throw away the part where it says form of a servant. The main point of the scripture is about Jesus being humble by taking the form of a servant over the form of God because he is a human being. For example: if it's about being a human being then did he stop being in the form of God? If he did not stop being in the form of God then how did he humble himself by adding a nature on top of divinity? Hence it says that he emptied himself because it is talking about position and not the nature of a servant or nature of God because we don't have nature of servants but of human beings. A human being can take the position or form a of servant or King. And Moses was sent to Egypt in a position God or a form of God. It doesn't mean that to Jesus or Moses are God unto God who sent them but God unto whom they were sent. This was only to show that Jesus came to represent God.

[@johnchauke7492]

@@whatistruth2810 And to add on that, Jesus did play some role in the form of God and some in the form of a servant where it needed hence he did forgive sins which is one of the privilege of being in the form of God. If we say that he emptied himself of all those privileges without looking at where and in what situations then I don't think we shall come out without contradicting ourselves

[@whatistruth2810]

@@johnchauke7492 You are clearly ignoring that Paul says what he means "the form of a servant" by saying "coming in the likeness of men". That is very plain. Not to mention the fact the John 1:1 clearly shows the divinity of Jesus as well. "The word was with God and was God." Do you believe Jesus existed before he was born of the virgin? You never gave an answer for what Micah 5:2 says.

[@estrellagamo9659]

the fulfillment of the Word becoming man to execute the redemptive plan of God was the reason of the nativity of Jesus in Bethlehem. He was the promised Redeemer mentioned in Genesis.

[@bluellamaslearnbeyondthele2456]

This rabbit hole is going a lot deeper. John didn't write anything revolutionary at his time. The Logos was never ever a person in any way. It just means design, plan, reason.

[@robertrecchia2642]

It simply means “God’s word”. When we expand into “plan”, Trinitarians become unglued, believing we are deliberately demeaning the term “logos”. Biblical Unitarians are standing on solid ground but give into the temptation of becoming overly “apologetic” when debating Trinitarians

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@robertrecchia2642 Unitarians, most concerned with what they are not. No great movement can be most known for what they do not agree with, thus Unitarian's will always be outside of Christianity. No great affirmations of faith to stand on, only things to tear down.

[@simonskinner1450]

The Word is Judge, being Judge is an aspect of God, and God was Judge, but now the Judge has become a man no longer God, as the Father passed all judgement to the Son. I have a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' bringing the truth.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@simonskinner1450 So dumb. So sad. The Son does nothing save for the will of the Father. The Son never acts apart from the will of the Father, perfectly. Who is perfect, the one who does the will of the Father. Who is perfect save for God. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. The infinite personal creator God is triune. Yes this will mess with your mind, yes you will struggle to perfectly understand, the short comings is you.

[@normanmcdermid4257]

May I add something to your truth. The rabbit hole is covered up by 1 John 4: 1-3. John 1: 10 or 14 indicates that the "word was made flesh"....yet in 1 John 4: 1-3, we are told by the same author of the gospel, that "Jesus Christ was made flesh". If the trinitarians say that Jesus is God, then this scripture is a contradiction. Just remember, in the list of gods names, you will not find Christ. God was never called Christ.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Dr. in Rev. 1:7--8 , Jesus the Christ is called " Almighty God. " Is not Jesus Christ God?

[@smalltimer4370]

If you read the entire account, and pay attention, you will find that the 'Almighty GOD', in that account, is not in-fact Jesus Christ, but moreso, the GOD and Father of Jesus Christ.

[@ChrisMusante]

I am not a scholar... but I know what I see and I wish there was someone to advise. This is a tragedy. 😔

[@ChrisMusante]

personification of wisdom - the 'is' that 'is not' and yet... shall come. Let every man's yes be his yes, and his no his no. The 'word' is the 'command'... the IF THEN statement of God's programming language, the 'seed', or kernel. Jerimiah 18:7-10

[@ChrisMusante]

Without even reading the preceeding chapters of Isaiah 45, where you quote verse 12, I can tell you and would risk my life on it that this is the LORD that is speaking... created and made are NOT the same thing. This is why the 'son of man' (always mentioned in the 3rd person) is the LORD of the Sabbath. Notice that God rested from all He 'made' and 'created'... vs. 'created' and THEN 'made'.

[@ChrisMusante]

God 'created' man... Lord God 'formed' man.

[@ChrisMusante]

John 12:48-50!! NAILED IT!

[@ChrisMusante]

In "Jacob"... the struggle with Whom should be 'feared' - God or 'man'. And if the purpose of the 'night' is understood, THEN , and only then, is one given (as a rite of passage) the 'name'... Israel. Israel means 'God prevails'. When the 'new Jerusalem' comes down from heaven... Jerusalem means, 'teaching of peace'. Those teachings, the 'word' of the Lord, when surrounded by it's enemies, will always redeem itself... if you DO 'the word'... you then ARE the 'word', and the word 'manifested'. Simple.

[@lutherbronner]

We who are filled with the Holy Ghost. We know that Jesus is the Son of God.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Jesus Christ is also referred as Eternal Father.

[@LibrePensador12]

Jehovah's witnesses brothers are Unitarians as well

[@Lamarck922]

And Catholics are trinitarian! What's your point?

[@estrellagamo9659]

God said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness". The word "Us" is plural, indicating not angels, but the begotten Son and the Spirit of God. What do you think?

[@TheWitness-fx4xq]

Too many titles attached to a name and yet still lacks the wisdom to discern John 1:1 message. John's letter is simple, non-cryptic and in plain sight. Why create your own interpretation instead of accepting the message that was revealed by the Holy Spirit through John? Are you implying that you know who Jesus was better than the Holy Spirit Himself? You all claimed and believed that the Bible is the words of God, and yet you don't believe some of its verses thus, forcing you to create your own interpretation that fits your argument or agenda. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean that it isn't true. There's a reason why Jesus had chosen common and uneducated, illiterate men as His disciples because they don't rely on their titles or accomplishments (making them boastful and prideful just like the pharisees and the sadducees -> making them harder to teach since their cups were already full) but instead they rely solely to the Holy Spirit (who is in them) that through them (the apostles) God's words will be revealed to the World. Don't believe that Jesus is God? then kindly read the following verses below: Isaiah 44:6 (Old Testament) - God speaking to the prophet Isaiah "...I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Revelation 1:8 (New Testament) - Jesus revelation (speaking) to John on His return (second coming) "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:17-18 "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades..." See, how perfect the correlation between the Old and New Testaments of testifying who Jesus is... Still not convince that Jesus is God? Well, that's your problem, not mine (and the rest of the Christians who has true faith and belief in Christ's Divinity). Though, I hope and I pray that someday you will find the Truth for yourself through God's grace and wisdom. Peace and Blessings!

[@diosdadoapias]

Jesus could be divine because he is not truly a mortal. But he is not God, one who is Almighty, an omnipotent. He could be a god, having also power but not almighty. Jesus has a superior, and that is his Father Almighty. John 6:38 For I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him who sent me. But then Christians, they who believe in the teachings of Christ and the apostles, have made Jesus as if he is the Father Almighty. When he was sent by his Father to the world as His Messiah, the saviour of the sinners.

[@daviddrew3372]

John 1:1 Regarding “ The Logos “ this phrase is absolutely and with no doubt a reference to Jesus. How do I know this? Because there are existing early copies of John and other gospels in HEBREW. In the Hebrew copies of John in John 1:1 the term “ The Son” replaces “The Logos” . Furthermore in the Hebrew the second incidence of The Logis is expressed differently from the first . The Hebrew Terms Elohim replaces The God and Eloha replaces the anarthrus theos . In the second case in both Greek and Hebrew are qualitative not definitive and not nominative. In both the Greek and Hebrew when understood in English the entire passage would indicate personhood for both The Logos( The Son in Hebrew) and The God. But only a god or more accurately “ divine in quality” . As to the creator argument . Jehovah is the Creator as the Architect Jesus is the creator in his role in creation as The Master Builder.

[@atravelingsoul2849]

This was brilliant. I wonder if the Unitarians are actually Muslims and they don’t know about that they are Muslim.

[@smalltimer4370]

Find a Muslim who accepts Jesus Christ as GOD's salvation - and you might have something to consider. Likewise, find a Muslim who acknowledges the name(YHWH), declared to Moses for all eternity and all generations - and you might have something to consider there also. That said, and as it is obvious that no Muslims accepts Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah and son of GOD, it is also obvious that your comment proves to be nothing more than a reflection of your own heart condition toward matters.

[@atravelingsoul2849]

Muslim do believe in Jesus Christ as prophet and yes, the salvation was through him at the time after Moses just like it was through Moses at the time of Moses. Muslims do believe Jesus is the Messiah. You need to educate yourself a little bit more. I’m sure there are differences, but it seems not much.

[@smalltimer4370]

@@atravelingsoul2849 Muslims do not, and will never accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah - you have no idea what you are talking about, let alone worth engaging with

[@atravelingsoul2849]

My friend, I am in Muslim and I do except Jesus is my Messiah. He is not just our Messiah, but he is the Messiah. Anyways, you must’ve been promoting different. Kind of Jesus the one that belongs to you you only:(

[@billschlegel1]

I believe in one God, the Father, and in the Lord Jesus the Messiah, the human Son of God, but I think Dr. Tuggy is wrong about John 1. John 1, while being an intentional parallel to Genesis 1, is not describing Genesis 1. Things that are parallel are not identical. The topic of John’s Gospel is not the creation of the physical world, but a new beginning that God brings about through the human person, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, who is metaphorically called the Word. Note how "the beginning" is used in the Gospel. Here are some references: John 6:64, 8:25, 15:27, 16:4. Then, ask yourself these questions: In Genesis, which comes first, light or life? The answer: “Light” In the Gospel of John, which comes first, light or life? The answer: “Life” (see John 1:4) - the exact opposite of Genesis. Is the darkness of John 1:5 the darkness of Genesis 1? No. Why is John the Baptizer introduced in the 6th verse of a Genesis creation account? Why would the author think it so important to emphasize that John the Baptizer was not the light of Genesis 1? Even though Dr. Tuggy says his view is the earliest, he is only assuming that. Neither Dr. Tuggy nor any other biblical unitarian that I am aware of give evidence of a "dynamic monarchian" of the first centuries AD who interpreted logos of John 1:1 as an abstract design, purpose or "wisdom". Historically, who or when is the first time this "wisdom incarnated" interpretation of John 1 is expressed? It seems to be an Enlightenment Period proposition, not "the earliest" view as Dr. Tuggy assumes. If interested, listen here to 8 (yea verily 9) reasons why John 1 is not Genesis 1. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnfZZGaIl9d9nLM

[@mikeoc217]

Trinity=👹🤮

[@estrellagamo9659]

Jesus Christ is God in essence, Savior, Lord, Almighty God, Begotten Son of the Father, a prophet, priest, and king.

[@simonskinner1450]

The Word is a divine attribute of wisdom and judgement, the Word is Judge, an attribute assigned now to Jesus a man who earned the right to become our Judge.

[@lutherbronner]

The nature man can not enter the Kingdom of God.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Phil. 2: 5--11 expresses that Jesus Christ is eternally God,equal in essence and attributes with the Father, and a separate Person from the Father., the Son fulfilling the plan of salvation for humanity

[@estrellagamo9659]

Jesus Christ was just not a mere personification of God's Word/wisdom/ . He became a true human being to represent humanity perfectly before the Father. The begotten Son must become a man, die, and resurrect, that whoever believes in Him believes the Father who sent Him, thus can obtain salvation and eternal life. Man is a depraved person, a fallen one, fall short of the glory of God, condemned to eternal fire after his physical death. He needs a Savior from his condition.. The wages of sin is death. Christ paid that debt on the Cross, and whoever believes in His salvation work will have eternal life. Jesus Christ was/is

[@estrellagamo9659]

Jesus Christ is eternally God. He had to become man to do the work of salvation. He is true God and true man, a Person, that He may represent humanity before the Father for all eternity. ( John 3: 16)

[@estrellagamo9659]

If Jesus Christ did not become a true man, man cannot be represented before the Father, and no humanity can ever enter the kingdom of God. But thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ, our victory and salvation to the glory of the Father. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as God, Lord, and Savior will spent their existence in the Lake of fire for all eternity.

[@estrellagamo9659]

Man as a fallen man needs salvation. He is depraved. No man can ever save him. It always takes a being of God essence to save him. Jesus Christ was/is/ forever the Anointed One to save. He is the only one qualified for He is God.

[@smalltimer4370]

You clearly have no idea what a personification actually is, for if you did, then you would never say; _'Jesus Christ was just not a mere personification'_ That being said, your comment are filled with logical fallacies and false assertions, mainly due to the fact that you do not understand the topic and material in question. PS, this is not to say that the claim that Jesus was strictly human makes sense, or that it is most likely true - though it remains that you cannot know the truth of matters, if you do not u understand, let alone, admit all of the relevant information

[@diosdadoapias]

Jesus is divine but not God as his Father who is the only God and no other else.

[@alanhales6369]

Spark and Foster film. Don't believe Dale Tuggy, because he is deceiving Biblically ignorant people. Here's the Biblical Greek for Jn 1: 1. The Biblical Greek preposition WITH, demonstrates a relationship between two or more persons simultaneously existing, So V1 The word was (Eternally) WITH (Face to Face alongside) God (Theos) and the Word was God (Theos). V2. HE (personal pronoun) was in the beginning WITH (Face to Face alongside) God. Please note, the word has a personal pronoun NOT an impersonal pronoun. The earliest disciples quoted the trinity, as far back as Barnabas and the disciples of the Apostle John. So don't believe the unsaved antichrist Dale Tuggy. As the Bible says about those who deny the trinity.

[@Lamarck922]

Hahaha better read your bible

[@alanhales6369]

@@Lamarck922 you are right, Dale Tuggy should read and believe the Bible.

[@lutherbronner]

Who do you say Jesus is. Of course you are born again or filled with the Holy Ghost

[@jaredg5663]

Unitarian "Christian" 😅 wow. First youtube recommends Hamas stuff now this. I'm done for the day

[@YourMoonGodALLAH]

Dale Toggy's imbecility is monumental. "Mr Nobody" wants to preach his own butchery interpretation of the scripture. He is my favorite CLOWN that I laugh at

[@songoku3046]

He is trying to understand the complex nature of God using Logic. What an arrogant fellow! Even an eternity would not be enough for us to fully understand the whole nature of God. We only depend on His revelation. And His revelation is quite clear about having 3 divine persons in HIm. It might go against all the logic and principles of this world, but if He says that is who He is then who we are to dare question Him about His revelation?

[@Thraka5]

Please don't take this as rude but if he is arrogant for what he believes, do you count yourself arrogant as well? In one sentence you say we will never fully understand the whole nature of God and yet you seem to know so much about him speaking of his 3 divine persons. Where is third exactly? The Holy Spirit doesn't act like jesus nor like God the Father. In fact most everything Jesus does appears to be in subordination to God the father which he alone is GOD. The holy spirit appears to act as God the Fathers projected will. So even if Jesus was God It would be a duo and not 3 "Divine Persons". Apologies but the scripture very much so backs up the Father and son paradigm between God the Father and God the son. People are dead set on their 3 God head and the bible does not back this up. The bible was written for future generations to read and gain wisdom not sit around and scratch their heads the entire time just trying to figure out who to worship. I think it is quite clear who we should worship and even Jesus says this. Matthew 28 16:20 - He states that All authority in Heaven and on earth has been "GIVEN" To me. God does not give himself authority. But perhaps a HIgher being can do that. And then 1 Corinthians 15:24 - Then comes the end when he Hands over the Kingdom to Our God and Father. So many people believe that Jesus can only be divine or not divine man or God no inbetween. and lets not forget the one bible verse everyone should know..... John 3:16 - For God so loved the world he gave his one and only son, that everyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. God very much has Rules to which even he holds and follows. Jesus payed for our sins. His sacrifice washed us of our sins, it makes logical since that Jesus is the way to salvation. That still doesn't mean Jesus has to be God. God the Father stated worship was for him Alone. He makes the Rules. Being the son of God and haven been given such great authority means Jesus is a powerful being in his own right. Lets not forget, Satan is also a very powerful being. But he ain't God. Sometimes he is refered to as a God. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - The God of this Age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is in the Image of God. Back this up with John 10:18-30. Peope tend to get hung up on how God the fathers will and Jesus' will align and think well if there wills are aligned they must be one being and lets be real that is a bizarre notion. 2 people can be on the same page and agreement on something that does not make them the same person. Why would God and Jesus be any different when it comes to the Gospel? There are just too many instances where Jesus and God the Father are two different beings. Holy Ghost does not even come up in alot of these instances. And Just because Jesus may not Be GOD does not diminish his importance or his divinity. So I am trying to understand why the Trinity is just being Forced all the time.