Dr. Debra Soh- Interview on The End Of Gender

[@l.f.9454]

YES!!! I totally agree. "We are making this more difficult then this has to be." There are hundreds of was to be a woman and hundreds of ways to be a man. Not hundreds of genders.

[@51reasons18]

Precisely this!

[@urbansetter1]

Yup

[@extremelynormalperson]

Except a huge problem with that is that society doesn't see it that way. Most of society treats this as a dichotomy and black and white, so it makes sense to have categories which are outside of them, in order to make things more understandable and clear. Most things in life aren't black and white or a dichotomy, yet we want them to be so badly - it's an obvious fault in the way that people think.

[@superside69]

I don't understand how making it law to "affirm" does anyone any good. If you seek professional guidance, you need help finding the right path. Requiring professionals to affirm really delegitimizes the profession and makes any consultations pointless.

[@LorriSulpizio]

Thank you for sharing this Andrew. Your comment reminds me of the many conversations we still need to have in order to better understand the way through this. I appreciate you watching.

[@insidiousmischka]

I agree 100%.

[@robcleaver4964]

I agree with the need for conversation but depressingly such conversations too often lead to people losing their jobs or being accused of hate speech etc. The majority of people believe that everyone should be treated with love and respect. The majority also believe that a woman is an adult human female and that eg a trans woman should be treated with love and respect but is not a woman. These are sincerely held beliefs - by all means let’s have conversation and debate but not accusations of hate speech or laws to say you must believe this or that. That’s not conversation and debate, that’s like forcing Galileo to affirm (under pain of death - read lose your job in modern terms) something he just did not believe. So yes the more non-shouted down conversation the better.

[@pierreboudreau7114]

Finally, a good conversation about gender without the usual politics and extremisms. I've been looking for something I feel comfortable sharing with my daughter and this is the best I've found so far.

[@LorriSulpizio]

@@pierreboudreau7114 I appreciate that. Let me know if there are specific topics or issues I can help you unpack as you engage with your daughter. As a mother of 4 I know the conversations about this with our kids can be tricky.

[@belindaabelar2894]

Embracing both your female and male aspects of ourselves is the healthiest way to be, just like accepting both the light and shadow/dark side of our psyche is what makes us whole.

[@urbansetter1]

I embrace mine and its a shame this is such an issue. I was a complete tom boy in the 60s and no one bothered me. I think this is dangerous

[@Jonus_Grumby]

You can accept many aspects of your personality but factually speaking you are either male or female.

[@sotiriosmakrygiannis1072]

Excuse me but our gametes (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamete), including yours, are BINARY (female OR male) and there is no indermediate to that biological fact (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system) in the whole kingdom of mammals... Yes? 😉😉

[@elizabethmansfield3609]

The psychologist Csikszentmihalyi in his book on creativity talks about creative people being “psychologically androgynous”. He writes about this concept, “referring to a person’s ability to be at the same time aggressive and nurturant, sensitive and rigid, dominant and submissive, regardless of gender. A psychologically androgynous person in effect doubles his or her repertoire of responses and can interact with the world in terms of a much richer and varied spectrum of opportunities.” By gender here, I think he means sex. This concept works for me much better than any of the current alphabet soup ingredients as far as I understand them.

[@donharris8846]

Sounds kind of like a profound set of platitudes. “Dominant and submissive at the same time” sounds good, but is meaningless in reality. What is an example of being dominant AND submissive simultaneously?

[@elizabethmansfield3609]

@@donharris8846 My understanding of this idea was you had a choice in any situation, not determined by gender. So, not at the same time, but according to the needs of the situation.

[@Ward1859]

This is one of the best presentations on Sex & Gender that has been on KZbin for many years. I am an effeminate gay male in my 60s. And I am a man. There are men who are effeminate. And this does not make them any less a man than any other socially-constructed idea of what being a man is all about. Granted, it is an evolutionary fact that human beings (homo-sapiens) have had to deal with males impregnating females for over 100,000 years in order to survive. And there is no doubt that this biological construction has impacted the ways various cultures have socialized people into fairly restricted gender binary roles. However, from my effeminate gay male perspective there really is no such thing as being gender nonconforming because society's social constructions of what is the correct way of being an average man is simply too limited. And these societal constructions have definitively placed unreasonable limitations on females and on how they should act as women or girls. What I am advocating is that women and men may act in a wide variety of ways without in any way losing their authentically being a woman or a man.

[@erichamilton3373]

I can definitely relate

[@js_fears_YAHUAH_only]

I enjoyed this dialogue...I am a woman with traditional (I’m sorry I honestly mean no disrespect with my language... I am not up to date with what is acceptable on social platforms) views on gender/sex and family. I by no means judge people on their personal preferences... but I wanted to explain my background... I appreciate this conversation because you opened my eyes to your argument and feelings on certain topics I could not understand. People are scared to have a discussion. Thank you for teaching!

[@LorriSulpizio]

Thank you for watching. I think we need to be open and patient with each other. This is new territory for all of us.

[@silverblank1139]

My god how deeply brainwashed you people are Why are you apologizing for calling yourself a traditional woman?! What disrespect?! Stop walking on eggshells out of fear that these sociopaths will attack you

[@js_fears_YAHUAH_only]

@@silverblank1139 I’m not walking on eggshells. Why did you watch her video?

[@afunparty3983]

Embarrassing. Lorri is absolutely wrong and pushing the 🏳️‍🌈 agenda. Look at you apologising for being right and moral.

[@tenbroeck1958]

@@js_fears_YAHUAH_only Because intelligent people expose themselves to all views. I'm fairly Liberal, but I read and listen to some Conservative views on Climate Change, so I can see what the opposing view is. Stupid people seal themselves into a silo, where they only hear voices with the same opinions/views. It's important to be yourself and not "conform" to woke madness, because it is the Exact same process that made everyone agree with racism 50 years ago and not speak against it. Even though I'm Liberal, I do not accept stupidity, i.e. a man who can bench press 300lbs feels like a women, so let him/her compete against biological women - that is ridiculous, as the the results are showing. Because I'm a compassionate Liberal though, I would refer to a Trans person by their chosen pronouns.

[@BluegillGreg]

When we were kids in the 1960s and 1970s, our neighbor Debbie loved to play in our pick-up games of Tackle Football. Michelle loved to play football, but only Two Hand Touch. So Debbie played in our Tackle games and Michelle played Two Hand Touch. This was based on friendship and familiarity, not stereotype. Children who care about each other often work things out pretty well. It's good to hear you advocating that we don't make any phase of childhood development into a stereotype-based destiny. Thank you for a caring and reasoned discourse.

[@Tina06019]

My brother and I fought physically, with carefully set-up rules we negotiated between ourselves to assure that we wouldn’t significantly injure each other. The last time we did this was when I was 19 and he was nearly 16. At that point, I won our last match, but agreed that we were no longer fairly matched, and that soon it would be completely unfair and that he might injure me.

[@johnhamel4662]

Dr. Soh is a wonderful example of a compassionate, progressive person, a staunch advocate for the rights of all human beings, including transgender people, with the courage to also vigorously defend science and speak the truth. I like all of her arguments but would like to make one additional point. If one IS a woman simply by identifying as such, then do I not, despite the fact that I am a man with white skin, have the right to identify as a Black woman, maybe even a Black lesbian? Sounds absurd, right? But the Black community, and most liberals, roundly denounced that white woman who a few years ago who identified as Black, for “cultural appropriation.” But from what I could tell, she was quite sincere, as sincere as any biological male who aspires to be a woman. Why was she not immediately accepted? And why shouldn’t she be eligible for special affirmative action treatment should she decide to apply to university? The reason, of course, is that she is NOT Black, any more than someone with a Y chromosome and who does not produce female gametes is NOT a woman. Simple as that, end of story.

[@Marcusmarcb0tI]

It's not as simple as that. Being black is not about skin color as much as it is about culture. Even though people are often stigmatized by their skin color. Everyone has the capacity to respond to make and female hormones, and we all begin in the womb as a proto-female. It's not nearly as much of a stretch to revert back to that or propel forward to a more masculine form. If you were to go on female hormones, you would develop functional female breasts that can produce milk. Your body can do that. There is no pill that can naturally change your age or cultural background. That is why comparing gender to race or age is not a valid argument.

[@Marcusmarcb0tI]

And yes, I realize there are some people who are testosterone resistant, but it's the exception, not the rule.

[@51reasons18]

@@Marcusmarcb0tI just because we can (artificially) doesn’t mean we should. It still doesn’t make a male on female hormones a female.

[@Marcusmarcb0tI]

@@51reasons18 It's not a matter of should or shouldn't. I know trans people who have fully been fully transitioned for years, and very are much happier now than before. They are good friends and kind people. It really doesn't matter what you think I'm terms of should or shouldn't, and it ultimately is none of your business what person does with their body. Trans people already know they will never have the full functionality of the opposite sex. That's not even the goal for some trans people anyway like non binary.

[@237domingo]

@@Marcusmarcb0tI What about michael jackson, he was white! My grand Mother really think he was white! His skin is white. "Everyone has the capacity to respond to make and female hormones, and we all begin in the womb as a proto-female." But the process by wich we produce, transform, digest, eliminate those hormones is pretty different. have you see a photo of a 2 weeks foetus out of the womb? You cannot tell the difference in the skin of a white baby and black babies. You have to look to alternative features. Skin features as sexual features can be predict before fecondation, but are only visible (with eyes) late in the development of a foetus. And yes being a woman has a cultural background. We are dysmorphia species, it's obvious that there is a culture built around womanhood. There is no pill that can naturally change your sex!!! If hormone that yout inject your self is produce externally, then it's not a natural change...it's an artificial change. We have never seen in human history a biological woman that have change during her life, her sex or her major sex attribute to man or vise versa. It's like saying "Our body can metabolize cocaine, therefore it's natural to drug addict" "If you were to go on female hormones, you would develop functional female breasts that can produce milk. Your body can do that. " wait being a biological female is having milking breast?? No way you think that. Functionnal breast is one of the numerous features of female, so is skin color. It's not sufficient to define female and definitively not how scientist since centuries have define female! In fact, you shouldn't celebrate the fact that a man is lactating as one of the key indicator of male breast cancer is breast discharge ("lactating"). A male lactating is very different from a female lactating. Female lactating is when there are pregnant, outside of that it's call galactorrhea, and It's a symptom you as a female should look and talk to your practitionner. In other world a male lactating is always a concern, a female lactating is only concern outside of pregnancy. So to talk about lactating, you have to talk about giving birth, you cannot cut one from another. In fact, ignoring those differences when educating people young people, is giving them bad habits that can be deadly. Young people(an old also) should be able to quickly identify those symptomatics situation, like breast lactating, contact there doctor, this can save your life as cancer can treat if you diagnose sooner. If you thing that a man lactating is normal, you are not going to report it to your doctor and the diagnose will come to late. This is not joke or a game. Add the fact that male breast cancer is very rare (another diference between male and female), most people don't and even genealist doctor are well trained to diagnose that, adding "celebrating" male lactating to that and you see why I'm a bit skeptic to use that as an argument. This is not just a philosophical discussion that is disconnect from reality, real people will died.

[@myleszacharias2029]

Thanks to you both for this. Not only for deep look into the issue, but more generally both of your curiosity and fairness is healing to see for me a listener.

[@junevandermark952]

Thank "you!"

[@johnwindisman2803]

Great video. Thanks! Feeling more masculine or more feminine, to me, is no different than when I feel more or less compassionate towards myself and others or feel more or less accepting of how I look (my body), etc. How we feel is situational, it depends on the context and depends on our past experiences etc. It's really important to always be aware of how we are feeling and why we are feeling that way; our beliefs. From there we can bring reasonableness and balance into our beliefs, so we can navigate our life's challenges with greater ease. This requires we remain curious and open as much as we can and not be tied to a rigid construct of who we are. As humans, we can and do change our beliefs all the time, and closing ourselves off by putting ourselves in a box hampers our personal growth.

[@novacancy7253]

Love this conversation! I love Debra and her kind way of talking about the facts. Bravo Lorri for the way you conducted the interview, 👏👏🌷

[@miradamevska5887]

Well that was awesome and refreshing, 2 beautiful and very different humans having a civilised conversation about a very important topic. Everyone can learn so much from these amazing people.

[@raspberrymist]

Females

[@aspiknf]

@@raspberrymist Women :-)

[@LorriSulpizio]

Right!? It was a great conversation. Super fun to have.

[@SonySato81]

These civilized and profound discussions between people who come from different places is very much needed. I just suscribed.

[@rationalchimp8200]

Oops got cut off. The science is not congruent or concerned with political agendas. The gender thing has stretched beyond what is rational. I do agree that both genders should be allow to assert their individual passions

[@dr.patton7415]

This was wonderful! Thank you so much for doing this interview. I have found over the years that my queer students actually have a great deal of interest in the complexities of science related to gender and sexuality. They really can handle the complexity if it is presented compassionately and with respect for their dignity. But sadly they've grown up in a world of hostile social media. As a consequence they've come to associate the science of sex differences with online cranks who are cruel to them. It is quite rare to find someone like Dr. Soh who tries to but scientifically candid and compassionate.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I so agree with you, Dr. Patton. It feels like we can strive to have compassionate conversations about this. Your students are lucky to have you!

[@Rubin4749]

@@LorriSulpizio It's so much fun and a pleasure to see a civilized conversation. I think many (obviously not all) gay men and lesbians would take offense very quickly to Soh's message. But I think instead of "drawing lines" in the dirt, conversations like this will grow people's compassion and tolerance on both sides.

[@BM-fz9yc]

29:24 interesting thing I wanted to point out. I think the attempt to correct this has actually been an over correction in our society. For example, it’s definitely looked down upon for a woman to want to pursue “traditional” things such as being a stereotypical wife and stay at home mom. You’re kind of scoffed at and get the “ugh this is setting women back 50 years.” Personally, I’m 27 and I feel that I was pressured throughout Highschool and college to want to pursue climbing the corporate latter (traditionally male dominated path) and now I’m like…realizing that I prefer traditional value and roles and I would feel much much more fulfilled if I was married and at home raising children and I just feel like that was never acknowledged as a legitimate option. I’m absolutely grateful for my accomplishments and journey (I’m a first gen college grad) but because of the student debt I’m in as a result I don’t think it would ever be possible for me to raise kids the way I would want to raise them and I kind of feel mislead and dooped by progressive ideology.

[@monicaxxi4277]

Very good conversation! Good choice bringing Dr. Debra Soh, congratulations :)

[@FengQingista]

This was such a great discussion. I had heard so many negative reviews re Dr Soh but was pleasantly surprised after seeing her talk to the Oxford Union, and then I came here. What a fantastic way to have a conversation - grown up, respectful and considerate. Well done to both of you and thank you so much! Much love from the UK. xx

[@MaximSupernov]

Great interview. I love this type of civil in-depth discussion. Thanks Dr. Sulpizio & Dr. Soh.

[@urbansetter1]

I played with boys and boys toys in the 60s. That was over 50 years ago. I had science kits and a baseball glove. Why is any of this even an issue. I never thought boy or girl i was me. Im a feminine woman now why would they judge me now. Why has being a tom boy become such a politucal thing

[@erichamilton3373]

I really commend you for having Dr Soh on and for questioning things, and for really looking for truth and dealing with things honestly. Great!

[@ItsTheNada]

I’m impressed by this civil conversation

[@csabagodri1003]

Awesome discussion! This is excellent example of open discourse we should be promoting on all channels.

[@LorriSulpizio]

Thank you! Feel free to share this. And I've got some other videos on gender, so check those out as well.

[@PeteMcCormack2]

Really an open, revealing, informative discussion. Lorri Sulpizio, how fantastic and open and curious and brave are you as a teacher and a thinker! Your questioning and questions were edifying and inspiring - and Dr. Soh was very gentle, kind, informative and honest in her responses. I hope my kindness in the conversation would be similar to your greta example. I think the science and listening to the science is undeniably vital and important. For those pushing that idea, they must stay very accurate. For example, it might be true, but I'd find it hard to believe that, as Dr. Soh said, “teaching materials will say if you are a little boy and you like dolls, you’re not a boy, you’re a girl.” That is a terrible teaching material, obviously, teaching only idiocy. I'd be surprised if that actually exists. But it's a strange world. Thank you both so much for your intellectual generosity during this conversation. As a parent, and a human, it was a gift.

[@celinemonney1391]

Wow! So happy to finally have come across a real DIALOGUE and productive exchange between two intelligent people about a controversial topic. I haven’t seen too many of these recently. Also more comfortable to follow a conversation when the participants are listening to each other and letting each other speak. So thank you and bravo 😍 And I absolutely agree with what has been said on both sides, personally I do not see gender as a spectrum but everything concerning personality and preferences absolutely so! For me it’s part of being human (and animal too!) that some beings will feel more masculine or more feminine at times or always, but for most of us, still be in the right gender/sex/body without necessarily feeling like the body we are born in doesn’t correspond. I absolutely experience that myself and always have. Of course for people suffering from serious gender dysphoria reality is very different and they deserve all the help, respect and support anyone could wish for. We should all try learning from each other and respecting each other more… and maybe the world wouldn’t be arguing/questioning such topics today if we did. 💪🏼

[@ChasingYonci]

I think that there will be outliers from the majority and the sooner we accept the outliers as outliers the better. The solution is to not try to take away all distinctions. We are not all the same and we are not all the majority in all areas. Imagine a tall person being mad that there aren’t as many options for tall people … but the majority of items are based on the height of the majority of people.

[@understandthis4634]

Very refreshing to hear a conversation of deep though to see it from many lenses. If we can openly discuss all topics in the manner shown, we can learn and understand each other.

[@yanizays3782]

Thank you so much for this interview! First time in this channel. I like to educate myself about different topics I will be getting this book for sure. I totally agree with Dr. Soh

[@heckensteiner4713]

This was an awesome conversation. There was logical and calm pushback from both sides and a lot of overlap. I wish people could talk about most issues this way.

[@josiahwyncott7519]

"men have almost been taught that they aren't emotional or loving" -- no. We are taught to firstly, be in control of our emotions, because a man who let's emotions take control can do very great physical harm. "Crimes of passion" is a term for a reason. Secondly, we simply are not wired to display love the same way as most women and it manifests in different ways.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I complete agree that you are taught to “be in control of your emotions.” I will say, I know many a man who displays love with depth and tenderness… more than some women. I don’t think we can characterize the display of love by biological wiring. I appreciate you watching!

[@josiahwyncott7519]

@@LorriSulpizio I have yet to watch the entire interview. Yes, many men come to be very openly affectionate with loved ones but it is far from the norm. My family had 5 of us boys and 1 girl. Our mother was completely the stereotypical "emotional woman," while our dad was very meek, calm, soft-spoken and non-confrontational. She cried about everything, had us boys watching emotional movies and reading or listening to emotional books, and on and on. If you would guess that we bucked the stereotypical guy attitudes you would be wrong. Even after all our upbringing which was very feminine-influenced we still became the typical teenage boys who fought, wanted to watch explosions and break stuff. We are for the most part just typical guys *BUT* we do have sensitive aspects which were clearly brought out by our mother. Even after being home-schooled with such a tender-hearted, outwardly emotional woman we still are very much like men with emotions and affections.

[@a_mustache_of_great_repute]

@@LorriSulpizio emotional control is key for men. We feel on extreme levels, and we have to pick and choose what to express and how to express it. We are loving, we just only show it when it's appropriate. Oddly enough, one of the best examples of a healthy man is aragorn from lotr. He's stoic, strong, weeps for the fallen, full of rage when it's appropriate, and a loving, romantic man when he's alone with the woman he chose to live. Compare that to most women who may not be full of these emotions all the time, but feel completely comfortable lashing out emotional whenever they see fit.

[@awaremel]

@@LorriSulpizio wonderful response! Love has no gender, or wiring, or body part associated with it. It is Universal. It is what we are born from, and is most certainly always the answer.

[@apab9700]

I love this conversation and all of the nuance. Thank you for sharing.

[@erin4885]

What a thought provoking, inspiring conversation. Think about how much progress we could make as a people, if we could be exposed to exchanges like this and participate in them on a regular basis.

[@ericgendell8874]

I love Debra Soh. She is so direct, clear, brilliant, articulate, rational and beautiful, I find her ferociously attractive

[@carterrennerfeldt1607]

new to this podcast. love it...and LOVE dr. sulpizio. she actually hit on something early in the discussion (i.e., more or less what is the delineation of gender vs. sex?) that was not fully fleshed out by dr. soh (of whom i am a big fan). i think sulpizio is, via her natural intelligence/curiosity, onto something that most people are missing...i.e., a highly detrimental mal-definition of gender vs. sex...and the fact that proper functional delineation thereof may in fact be the way to get out of this either dogmatic (on the right) and antiscientific (on the left) morass in which we find ourselves vis a vis the whole trans issue. i would love to see this issue further explored here.

[@user-di8hm2jl2u]

I think gender is being confused with personality. Personality is a spectrum but sex is not.

[@oliverhug3]

this!

[@fitnessdestiny]

I was born with the wilderness in my spirit. I am a female. I don’t necessarily concern myself with whether or not that wilderness of spirit engenders more masculine or feminine attributes… I simply am -and I am also deeper than my gender...

[@carlovincetti]

The hardest thing our society can do with any of these issues is to have politics become the science of issues based on beliefs interpreted from a book that was written as translation be the way in understanding it.

[@kimberleylouiseprance445]

I knew my sex and gender did not match from the age of 5,53 years ago. I believe that had I have had access to puberty blockers before my puberty occurred then I would have had a far easier life. I am mtf and I am concerned about surgeries on gender questioning children, however we also need to step back for a moment and step away from the anti-transgender rhetoric. There needs to be better conversations about acceptance rather than this race to change or hatred of change.

[@sueciviero3866]

The contradictions I am seeing is these simultaneous opinions among activists who advocate transition for children, pharmaceutical and surgical. : 1) gender is a spectrum 2) gender is a social construct 3) trans kids know they are the opposite binary sex at an early age. For human beings it takes about 25 years for full brain development. If we let children be themselves and offer love and acceptance most will grow to accept themselves. They will have individual sexual attractions and gender expressions.

[@annarboriter]

I must have just imagined my elementary school musical based on the album: Free To Be, You and Me because society has always been so darnned rigid and limiting of individual expression

[@KingAnarchist]

Although I likely disagree with almost your entire outlook on gender and sexuality, I respect that you will have conversations with people that disagree with you. Too many people completely disregard any contrary opinion to theirs, and go as far as not allowing others to even voice their opinion.

[@stantheoneandonly]

Great conversation. Thank you both.

[@LorriSulpizio]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@rationalchimp8200]

Great conversation. Our society needs to expand its entrenched views. there is no meeting “half way”

[@Libertarian_Neighbor]

Loved this conversation.

[@ThegreatfishfromMars]

I think another thing that they did not touch on in this conversation is that we, as tribal species, categorize ourselves into groups. We tend to socialize and mimic the behaviour of people who are similar to us, and our gender identity forms because we develop an idea of what it means to be male or female. This is probably a big part of why we have social expectations for men and women. Of course, this is not going to be true for all people, as evolution and psychology are really not consistent.

[@istherenooneleft]

I disagree with how the author arrives at some conclusions, and some of her conclusions as well. She tries to use biology to explain everything which is a good scientific approach however, something’s aren’t explained simply by biology. If you’re a girl and you like to be rough, does that automatically mean you were exposed to more testosterone. Also why are we saying gender is how you feel internally and your brain may not align with it. Gender roles are a construct of society. By trying to over complicate this with biology you are hindering your own argument.

[@sloanefrances1189]

Gender is not a social construct but race is. That is what we need to be focused on.

[@MaximSupernov]

Great point!

[@Ximetama]

you got it backwards lmao

[@sloanefrances1189]

@@Ximetama yeah no, I didn’t. Check out the human genome project it’ll prove I didn’t get a thing wrong.

[@elizabethmansfield3609]

Deciding a child’s gender by whether they play with dolls or not is a social construct, and a really harmful one. Deciding what kind of person someone will be by the colour of their skin or kinds of facial features is also a social construct and again, a harmful one.

[@Ximetama]

​@@elizabethmansfield3609 enforcing gender roles to your kid/baby bc they have have xx or xy chromosomes is super harmful too, and no one determines how a person will be by the color of their skin??? we can only assume how privileged they could be bc society.

[@jademat31]

So I came here after Dr Soh appeared on Blaire Whites channel, this discussion was really great and there was so much common ground. I've gave you a follow :)

[@thetaraparker]

The issue I have with the concept of gender identity is to say that someone’s gender was purposed to address their soul expression identity. Our soul expression is ever changing as we grow and gender was never created to label our identity. Gender was created for limitations so we could experience a specific experience in this lifetime. It’s more limiting to label ourselves and create pronouns when pronouns were not made to be a personal expression label.

[@silverblank1139]

Noce word salad bro

[@DorianPaige00]

What body do you want to live in? What secondary sex characteristics do you want? That's the issues for transgenders.

[@Chasee445]

14:08 - as to Debrah Soh's answer to the question of gender vs. sex -- So are the words "gender" and "gender identity" interchangeable for her? That doesn't make sense at all because she usually uses the words "sex" and "gender" interchangeably, e.g., when she denies that gender can exist on a spectrum, saying that there are only two genders/only two sexes, male and female.

[@magicallymalicious01]

I think society is so accostomed to thinking as the woman as feminine and the Male as masculune but in this day and time because of our fight for equality. Women doing typically men's work and men staying home with kids we're all more androgynous than ever and it feels so comfortable to just be that its confused some people and caused them to believe they are a mistake and switching would fix that. And i dont think even as an adult that decision should be made rashly because adults don't always know whats best for them. They make decisions based on emotion instead of logic. And making it so easy for them to do so is wrong it should require a long period of therapy and passing as their chosen sex for a while as it did in the past.

[@sergiovalencia486]

What Dr. says its interesting, because she says that now gender has a lot of connotations and meaning behind, that is not gender based its political based overthinking and giving new meanings and redefinitions make this situation complex but scientifically its not as complicated, at the end we all search the truth and thats what is great about this conversation, curiosity its what drives it and thats good

[@annaservetas214]

Great conversation!

[@jjjccc728]

Great conversation. I agree that conversation is important but it's only effective if it leads to change in behavior. So in that sense the quality of the conversation is important. Are you going to change any of your behaviors?

[@Chasee445]

As to the question about bias in science -- Debrah's answer and this conversation really missed the opportunity to visit the unknowns and limits to scientific understanding, given that we know scientific understandings of sex and gender have changed and developed dramatically over the decades, and that scientific consensuses change over time as they discover more information or consider different possibilities. Furthermore, different scientists may disagree about particular details. It's true that the scientific method can get us close to objectivity, but can it really get us exactly to objectivity? No, it cannot. And it also cannot offer consistency.

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

I think she talked about that in her book.

[@annarboriter]

The trans god of the gaps

[@AllenBooth]

Dr. Debrah Soh is refreshing take amongst the insanity of the progressive element as it is today.

[@jkherold63]

Conservatives have their own unique brand of insanity, as well. Regarding sexuality and gender, however...progressive have really gone off the rails. We need real science/real facts so our children can know the truth about things and make educated decisions.

[@dwighthaas1771]

The shaved head being more masculine doesn't work in many African tribes where both genders are shaved. In America, men often shave thier heads not to look or be masculine, but to hide thier male pattern baldness, while women who often shave thier head to emulate men who shave thier heads.

[@pneumanaut1]

It’s my understanding that that’s why she brought that up: it is a very cultural thing and it varies from culture to culture. We are most familiar with where we live, and we are very ignorant on how other cultures view similar actions in very different ways. I think this whole discussion on gender comes off very differently in other cultures throughout time, to which we are very ignorant on as well.

[@erichamilton3373]

Yes. She said Western culture

[@dara_1989]

i am guessing 🤨🤨 gamets r sperm or egg .. what u produce , determines ur gender .

[@permrussiatoday]

Wow, so much sense in this discussion.

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

I finished reading her book. It's hard to believe she is an academic as it is very poorly written. Something, to me, is off about her. There are numerous straw-men, oops, straw-people, in her book and she constantly oversteps the science, gives opinion over science, that is, when one can determine what she is referencing. I have also searched her published work and it really has little to do with the ideas she is discussing.I don't believe she is an expert in this area; just the latest talking head making the rounds of Rogan, etc. This is a book giving a conservative position, or at least, espousing a conservative position, while masquerading as a "concerned" liberal.

[@m.alawski2348]

What's wrong with being conservative? Are the only "good" people in the world liberal? Questioning and having open discussions of the new emerging POWERFUL ideology that is permeating the western world should be encouraged. Why is everyone always looking through the lens of "liberal" vs "conservative"? Shouldn't we focus on an individuals arguments and points they are making, rather than judging them based on who they voted for? That is juvenile in my opinion. I see a lot of parallels (ironically) with the insanely strict catholics I grew up around, and the new activists that are dominating western institutions and platforms. When I was younger, I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut, because if I even QUESTIONED anything about the catholic church, I was quickly met with a scolding, as opposed to a loving response. That is what scares me about today's dogmatic ideologs. A very similar reaction is had when you talk to some someone who treats their belief system as a religion. I remember my mom's friend-who was a staunch catholic-didn't let her daughter hang around this family who was new to the church, and previously protestant. Maybe she thought they were still protestants, masquerading as catholics.

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

@@m.alawski2348 Hi Mary, you are making a claim that I did not state; that there is something wrong with being conservative. I hold conservative views on several issues. What is interesting in your examples is that the religious experiences are prime examples of conservatism and most religious here generally vote conservative. Note, that you claim to want to discuss arguments, positions, etc. but use the word conservative as a form of your identity label. The problem is that conservatism today is not the same as yesterday and is highly tied restriction if ideas such as anti-science at all levels, and religious influence, and values that generally reduce diversity, immigration, sexuality, etc. In other words, Cons are generally restricitive in today's world. But my post was about the book. She is the latest Con figurehead to support a position but she is no true academic or expert in what she is writing about. I have looked up(I have a biological science background) her prior research contributions and most have little to do with this topic. In short, she is not an expert in this area, doesn't present well as an academic, and some of her peers have expressed concerns over here. She is not generally respected by her academic peers.

[@Nic-xr8sd]

She is a strong neurosexist.. i wouldnt take all the things she writes so seriously tbh..

[@Wop-a-hoe]

So everything is political which is quite disturbing itself. They both stated one is liberal, one socialist, which is Marist if you want to go political. I started yawning before half over, and quit frankly I do not care about the gender dysphoria that is visual and controlling the masses at the moment. My reasons do not point fingers politically. However, I agree with the spotlight with podcast celebrities. I am going to hear what her and Ben Shapiro have to say because of your triggered comments about conservatives..lol ✌🏽 😆

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

@@Wop-a-hoe Just because one states one's political affiliation or identity does not mean the tone of the writing or the conceptual perspectives equate to the same. For example, I am a progressive and liberal because I have studied liberal philosophers, and some progressivists and have adopted their ideas but some of my views are libertarian, and other conservative. I comment on politics be she does in interviews, and does so in the book. But most of the comments I made are independent of this. It is not a good book, nor do I think she is an expert in this area.

[@Cladina_Green]

This seems like a huge issue for nonconforming children, who have a concept of "gender identity". But I don't think "everyone feels gender fluid". I'm a very adventurous and unconventional woman but never, even one minute, have I ever felt "like a man." Probably the vast majority of kids would never go down this road without the suggestions and pressure from teachers and peers. Also, just to correct you, most women are not objecting to men in our safe spaces because they are traumatized by events in our past. We object because it is dangerous in the present and future. Mixing up the bathrooms has led to more sexual assaults than we will ever be able to know. And how awful that those boys have been molded into experienced predators by the school, instead of living within an healthy boundaries. Adults are responsible for maintaining those boundaries.

[@Chasee445]

As to the sexual orientation vs. gender identity issue -- Debrah says sexual orientation is immutable because biological but gender identity is fluid...and therefore non-biological? Lack of sense here. First, sexuality is fluid for many people. Second, shouldn't she as a scientist know that biology, just like it determines much of everything else, can determine gender identity as well -- even transgender identity for a minority of people?

[@carlovincetti]

Again, and I dont know if this guest will say it outright. Hormones are what determines how feminine we develop, or male. People would never want to trans if they didnt have hormones be the greatest part of that process.

[@christopherkimes2580]

You are either male or female, nothing more. Outside of that you are either heterosexual or homosexual. Don’t try and complicate things.

[@GaelleBretinTokpo]

What about intersex people then, who have biological characteristics of both male and female?

[@lacieunderall]

I enjoyed this discussion. I wanted to disagree with Dr. Soh, but I could not. She obviously knows what she's talking about and approaches things logically and draws no absolutes. If everyone could just stop digging in on the gender hot button (both sides) and take a breath and listen to reason, things would be so much better.

[@extremelynormalperson]

Why did you "want to disagree with" Dr. Soh? And what do you mean by "digging in on the gender hot button"?

[@Iamjamessmith1]

Turn the men's spaces to gender neutral. Why not?

[@urbansetter1]

I dont agree its all hormones in children. Tons of tom boys are not gay yet they played with boys had boy toys and dressed like boys. I think environment plays a role too most definitely.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I agree with you. Many people don’t like the idea that gender is socially constructed, and I’m sure that’s not the only contributing factor, but there certainly is an environmental influence. On the way we are taught to be both boys and girls, men and women. I’m sure it’s a mix of both nature and nurture.

[@urbansetter1]

​​@@LorriSulpizioive read clear cut it is no way all science environment plays a huge role and how you attach in early development in childhood. There are gay woman huge butches and some that wear stiletto heals.

[@urbansetter1]

Im listening to you speak. Im gay but more feminine. I had all boys toys my sisters did not but they had the opportunity. I was never rough housing not like that at all. I played sports all day with boys and was accepted. There is a major bi I biological Difference between boys and girls and it needs to be accepted. All the girls in my neighborhoid loved hop scotch jump rope and dolls all the boys played sports. It is innate and its rudiculous this is even happening. There is no one way to be a woman and it was never a problem until this movement

[@shifterofshape]

❤️ 😍 💖 ❣️

[@MrPondiroad]

Biological sex; gender identity; gender expression

[@ebyd2756]

Listen Dr Soh there is mounting evidence within research that highlights the socio-cultural influences on gender that is more nuanced than anything you have spoken about so far - and I am not just talking about socialization or physical aesthetic such as a shaved head. You keep revisiting the age of debate, nurture vs nature, and you seem to be fixated on offering the latter as the main explanation for gender. Until you are able to conduct a comparative study that examines both socio-cultural and biological influences, the generalizability of your findings is limited. So please stop talking about gender with such absolutes - that is poor science. You clearly do not understand the philosophy of scientific research because the current discourse is about the subjectivity of objectivity. The best research adopts both subjective and objective inquiry. BTW, there is no such thing ad absecence of bias in scientific research. You should know this

[@collyernicholasjohn]

“ These myths include that gender and sex are spectrums” Dr Deborah So.

[@ashlibradford1821]

This is such a great video and conversation!!! I feel so much like what is discussed here. I feel that way. "Let people be and do what they feel they are!" Without forcing names, and labels down their throats. People under the age of 25 their brains are not fully formed yet. To shove hormones into them before they are fully formed as an individual is so damaging. And then they wind up dead later on because they can't change back effectively if they decide they want to. Recognize sex by genes exist, but that doesn't mean you have to be in box A or box B regardless. This whole things has become so terribly damaging and are ruining healthy conversations and futures for so so many.

[@DorianPaige00]

But you can join the military at 17 and the army comes into the elementary schools. I live about an hour from West Point and all the natal males made a yearly field trip starting at around 9. Shall we not get our driver's licenses until 26 too. Maybe we should cut everyone a check until they are that magical age. Here's the deal. If someone is given a short course and can repeat back to you in their own words the limitations, concerns, and side effects of taking a certain medicine, then they are competent to make that decision. With your idiotic reasoning, you'll have adults in their mid 20's who won't be able to get a blood transfusion even though they verbally say they want one because their parents are part of the Jehovah's Witness cult. Estrogen treatment for gender dysphoric males who show persistent, insistent, and consistent identity needs to be treated. It's part of general standards of care.

[@cheapskate9487]

Great video

[@hahandroo]

@38:00 great question. Thanks for asking.

[@ntr10me]

It's such an important one for sure. It is unfortunate how despite the rather compassionate tone Soh takes in the book and in all her appearances with respect to trans-identity in children and the topic of gender, more left-leaning media stays away from her because she's seen as doing something toxic, and more right-leaning media gives her more of a platform to serve their own actually transphobic ends. Thoughts? Cheers

[@LorriSulpizio]

@@ntr10me I really liked the book and I appreciated the ideas. It made me consider my own ideas and it challenged me to expand my understanding. I think we have become a people divided and fearful. Too many people take things out of context or don't take the time to ask questions and fully understand things, instead, they use information as self-serving and furthering agendas. Perhaps if continue to connect with people who we see as different than us, to understand their ideas and find our common humanity we can evolve. (Just a thought :-))

[@floorfan7987]

It's only confusing because you make it confusing !!!

[@vlndfee6481]

Sexualoty is also done by big cooperation... everything sold by sex.. Cars by portraing woman etc Specially advertisement and music industrie is nuts.

[@wylier]

That's a matter of sales and marketing, i.e. trying to maximize sales and exposure.

[@ashley_brown6106]

"...in our minds"

[@momol3082]

i think that the emphasis on the gender fluidity is very harmful in a long run. The fact that you have to push for accepting atypical representation of gender roles is a sign of you are targeting the wrong thing.

[@ElizabethDMadison]

Gender comes from Latin "gens" meaning family based on a married man and woman and their children. Same root as "generativity" "generations" etc. So at root it does have to do with male and female in their reproductive complementarity. Not a social construct but objective, you're born male or female objectively and it doesn't change. If you have a y chromosome you are a man. If you have no y chromosome you are a woman.

[@annarboriter]

On this point you are decidedly mistaken. Gender, as well as genre, come from the Latin term: genus, generis n meaning type ie. musical genre, grammatical gender. Gens, gentis f means clan or tribe. This is a frequent problem when one obtains etymological understandings from Gender Studies or Women's Studies texts and not from studying classical languages

[@ElizabethDMadison]

@@annarboriter Gens means family in Latin, the family with its male head and including wife and offspring; to any Latin speaker that would be the point of reference. This is very basic information about ancient Roman society and language.

[@annarboriter]

@@ElizabethDMadison I thank you for correcting me. I was clearly burdened with the false understanding about very basic information that familia meant family in Latin. What was I thinking!

[@silverblank1139]

I don t need the dislike button to tell this isn’t doing well

[@bennychaves2694]

Stop spending money wherever the rainbow flag flies.

[@TheIndependentLens]

PRIDE is so freaking tacky anyway.

[@LorriSulpizio]

Thanks for watching. I appreciate your perspective.

[@215bilal9]

❤️

[@Cecchin0]

Both of them have male skull.

[@jillwilliams2056]

She suggests that some transgender youth may undergo “needless medical interventions” because they change their minds about being transgender. Clinics offering hormonal intervention for transgender youth follow Endocrine Society Guidelines, which recommend interventions only for youth who have reached puberty. As Soh notes in her article, gender identity is fixed at this time. Furthermore, in the only study to date on this protocol, 100% of youth continued to identify as transgender in adulthood. Participants in the study had improved depression and anxiety after the hormonal protocol. Soh also suggests that social transition for transgender youth in dangerous. New research suggests that young children who are allowed to socially transition have better mental health and self- worth than children who were not allowed to do so

[@BM-fz9yc]

100% of youth? The thousands of detransitioners who initially underwent treatment during this time frame beg to differ.

[@jillwilliams2056]

@@BM-fz9yc Well from the studies I have read this is the case. I don't know where you are getting thousands change their minds. I haven't seen this anywhere. Just case in point two Doctors that I see have had zero Transgender patients change their minds. So many Transgender people's lives have been saved because of medical intervention. And this doesn't just mean surgical.

[@Beserious795]

@@BM-fz9yc agree. OP: the statement that “the only study done to date” should be a red flag all its own. And I have yet to see any long term studies done (paywall blocked or not) on the effects of puberty blockers and HRT on the human body. As mentioned in this interview, these studies are largely avoided. I would think these statistics should be especially important to endocrinologists and their “protocols.” It is important that people have these productive conversations around the topic.

[@miriamlana833]

Hello Lorri, one gender role problem is clearly seen by only looking at you, you said you have four children, a heterosexual man who looks and behaves as societal seen feminine (not crossdressing for fun sometimes but 24/7) as you look and behave societal seen masculine NEVER has four children, sometimes never finds a partner at all in whole life. "Tomboyish" women are loved and prefered by many straight men as partners. For a man it's already a problem not to fit into the "alpha male" stereotype, long before looking and acting feminine in any way, when it comes to dating.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I think you're right that it's different for men. Harder, I would assume. I will say that I am a lesbian, so my partner is female, however, I hear what you are saying about feminine men not finding a partner. You are calling to mind the toxic masculinity that is so harmful. That 'alpha male' idea that hurts both men and women. Thank you for your comment. My hope is that in being authentic, you will find people who love and appreciate you for who you are. I know it's not always easy.

[@ZackZick96]

Most of the trans MtFs I know had families they just left behind, if they fancy women. They are usually genetically really successful as their brains are more male than average. Homosexual transsexuals MtF, are different though.

[@ZackZick96]

There is also a huge trend for forcing women to be more feminine; lots of MGTOW movements, incels, Petersons of the world, toxic dating gurus and so on, as well as selection pressure from instagram, FB, facetune. You can only opt out of it by being non binary or trans now. The selection pressure to be super feminine is beyond intense.

[@ZackZick96]

@@LorriSulpizio I know so many women who like more feminine men though. Maybe start meeting places or groups for women who like feminine men?

[@Gwanmei]

She is one of the types who just don't want to be female. This is a trait of headstrong + selfishness.🤣

[@sinesaii]

It is strange how much more important gender stereotypes are today as opposed to 20-25 years ago. Tom boys were never an issues. Feminine boys were picked on, and that sucked (I was effeminate), but so long as the guy had friends (like I did), everything was okay. Now life seems so much worse. This gender/sex thing is just mental masterbation. It does not matter. Wear a dress, sleep with whomever you want, but attacking the language is silly. We have too much “identity” BS infecting social life. It is pointless. Life how you want, but leave the rest of us alone.

[@iBMcFly]

🤦‍♂️ 4BBE

[@jeffcranmer9419]

Crap

[@saxaphone9496]

Sex and gender are binary.

[@ruthtirado2750]

Can we PLEASE just go back to the simplicity of the Bible???

[@Stabsnipers]

You mean putting people in jail for working on the sabbath?