Gender Expression-- Is it something we DO? (not something we are)?

[@TALKCalgary]

What an incredibly thought provoking talk. Until now I had always considered myself free of social conditioning of any kind. Now I realize that when it comes to gender my views have been totally formed by social conditioning and upbringing to a point that borders on bigotry.

[@livie4560]

thanks for your clear explanations, i'm trying to educate myself and your videos are the clearest ones so far❤️

[@ryn2844]

So I'm confused. Not about the topic, but about you. For reference, I am transgender. Are you aware that Judith Butler no longer believes that no part of gender identity is innate, after getting a lot of critiques from trans people (decades ago)? She now calls her theory 'only one of many theories of gender' and says the reason she changed her mind is that trans people very much do feel like they were born with their gender identities, and that she's not about to tell them they're wrong. Her gender performativity theory, as she says, came from a cultural zeitgeist in which performativity was the hot new academic thing. Performativity is the idea that by doing or saying something, you really actually change something about social reality. She used the example of saying the phrase 'I do' while getting married. By saying 'I do', you are really actually changing your marital status. So according to performativity theory, by performing a gender, you are really making yourself that gender. And I mean that's a nice theory, and it's certainly a part of how gender works, but there's like three billion other things that come into play. Gender is so complex that no single theory could ever encompass the whole thing. And Judith Butler agrees with me there. In interviews, whenever she gets asked about her theory on gender she pivots the question to instead talk about how worried she is that anti-trans people are using her theory to deny trans people our right to define our own gender identities and deny us our bodily autonomy, which she considers a much more urgent issue to talk about right now. I hope I misinterpreted, but to me your video looks like it could be a veiled attempt at doing the same thing those anti-trans people are doing, namely using her theory to deny that we (trans people) are really inherently the gender we say we are. Given your positive responses to comments on this video that any trans person would immediately recognize to be blatant transphobia, I am not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, but heck I'll go against my instincts and do it anways. Have you read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl and are you aware of her critiques of subversivism and academic social constructivist gender theory, from a trans perspective? Because if you're going to be making videos like this, I really think you should be aware of that. It is extremely relevant. It should have at least been mentioned. It's not like Whipping Girl is some obscure book. It's basically been required reading in most academic courses on women and/or gender studies for a decade now. Are you aware of the study called "Discordant s3xual identity in some genetic males with cloacal exstrophy assigned to female s3x at birth"? The study is referenced in the 2013 DSM V entry on Gender Dysphoria. It is not new, and it is not obscure. To summarize the study, essentially, some kids are born with no skin in g3nital area (cloacal exstrophy, it is not an inters3x condition). Regardless of these kids' chromosomes, all of these kids used to get assigned female at birth, got surgically constructed vag!nas (because those are easier to construct than p3nises), were raised female, were not told they were XY, and were treated with estrogen during puberty. All of the XY subjects in the study still ended up identifying as male by the time they were adults. So basically you can take a baby boy, tell him he's a girl his whole entire life, raise him as a girl, perform all sorts of feminizing medical interventions on him, and he's still going to have a male gender identity. That's not just a theory, it has been tried, and it is a fact. This study indicates that at least for the vast majority of the population, gender identity is in fact fixed by the time we are born. This does not mean that innate gender identity always has to match biological s3x. Clearly, since trans people exist, and since conversion therapy doesn't work on us no matter how early you start (meaning that our gender identity is fixed), innate gender identity does not always match biological s3x. Given that trans people are far more likely to be inters3x than the general population, it is obvious that biology has an impact on the innate gender identities of trans people, and that trans identification is not just sociogenic. XX individuals with congen!tal hyperplasia are very likely to end up being trans (generally assigned female, likely to end up identifying as male-ish), while XY individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are very unlikely to end up being trans (generally assigned female, end up identifying as female), which suggests that exposure to testosterone in the womb has a strong influence on the gender identity a baby is born with. Obviously socialization also has an effect on gender identity. I don't deny that at all. But to say that that's all there is to it is factually incorrect. So, I think it's great that you read Judith Butler's Gender Trouble. It shows that you are genuinely interested in learning about others, and willing to put effort into it, because wow that is one dense book. However, Gender Trouble is only one book by one person. It is not 'The Definitive Truth' about gender, and I think you fell short in failing to recognize that. I don't think you should have presented gender performativity theory in this video as if it is the one and only truth about gender, or presented yourself as an expert on the matter. I think for this video you should have probably reached out to people who are actually experts, or people who are actually trans, so they could help you avoid mistakes. I hope you continue to read and learn more.

[@aarniv6620]

Yes, I was also wondering about the innate part of gender indentity, which is not included in this video. Or the initial feeling of ones own gender, which children are starting to feel/express something like 3 years old. And I was wondering, what makes one search and buy ones clothes from the ”men section” even if they are a female and a woman, like Lorri shows pictures of themselves. Ipersonally feel like there is something innate, that makes one do that - seeing the society and all it imposes on us, and even then doing things against it. Perhaps the feeling that this (clothing/style/gendered choices) feels right and good for ME (regardless of what I am supposed to do based on my sex).

[@ryn2844]

​@@aarniv6620 Yeah true. There is undoubtably something innate about gender. No idea what, but definitely something. I haven't kept up with this KZbinr, but I would like to point out that she has now been marked red on the shinigami eyes extension. That indicates she's apparently done or said a bunch of overtly transphobic things, because that's the only way anyone gets marked red. I'm not invested enough to go dig into what those things are. Judith Butler is still alive and active (doing all sorts of interviews, writing trans-related books), and if you want to understand their theory, it's probably better to get it from the source than from this apparently transphobic KZbinr. Lily Alexandre has an excellent video called 'Do "Binary Trans Women" Even Exist? The Politics of Gender Conformity.' It dives into the clash between people who believe that gender is only performative (based on Butler) and people who believe there's an innate part to it (based on Serano). I recommend it. Much more informative than this video. Julia Serano's book 'Whipping Girl' is very easy to read. I highly recommend that one too. Judith Butler's writing is very much NOT easy to read.

[@Fatb0ybadb0y]

I think you are a great speaker; you present your view cohesively and eloquently. However, I'm afraid that your argument just doesn't convince me. The whole of gender theory is rooted in the idea that gender is a social construct - the social constructivist viewpoint. I believe that people are a product of both biological determinism and environmental factors, but I think that biological determinism plays a greater role. I also have a strong understanding of evolution through natural selection and evolutionary psychology which I believe explains the phenomena of differences between the sexes. It is for this reason that I believe gender theory is actually gender ideology, similar to intelligent design, as a pseudo-religion masquerading as a scientific theory that already has the answers and wants to present evidence that fits with its initial hypothesis and completely disregarding any evidence or results that challenge it (a process that is anathema to the scientific method). I am not arguing that people should be unable to present themselves in any way they see fit (within reason - no items of clothing worn with the specific design to incite violence for example), I find it somewhat disingenuous when people who take my stance are labelled as bigoted in some way. It seems that ad hominem is the only argument that is proffered to defend gender ideology. I'm not sure whether you will read this, but if you do then know that I harbour no ill will toward you and will you well in the future.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I love your comment, and I’m so grateful you said it because this is some thing that I think about a lot. I am raising three sons and one daughter and I absolutely see differences between and among them, I guess my curiosity is really around how much of the way we present is learned… if you’d ever wanna have a conversation on zoom and we could talk about some of these ideas I’d be happy to consider that. I’m definitely grateful for your comment. You’ve made me want to do a little more research around this and maybe do some more videos unpacking this idea of biological determinism and how it impacts the way we present ourselves to the world.

[@rayvb]

👏👏👏

[@humantacos9800]

Gender expression is a combination of our lived experiences of being a member of a biological sex and personality. It’s not rigid and set in stone like biological sex. Most transgenderism seems to have devolved into stereotypes and exaggerated features. I work with borderline and histrionic women in DBT for many years and I’ve never met one that acted like someone like Dylan Mulvaney.

[@godforreal7355]

I've always thought that people confuse gender identity with personal identity. If a teenage girl really likes the style of James Dean, she might think she's actually a man deep down inside and transition. Like, she wants the voice and silhouette to go with the haircut. It seems so misguided, as if hormone therapy is some sort of chemically based plastic surgery. I think those kinds of permanent changes may be a poor solution for someone who ultimately would benefit more from talk therapy and some personal accomplishments to help them with their self esteem. People simply have to work to be the kind of person they want to be. But hell, I might be pretty far out on a limb here.

[@copiryte9535]

@@godforreal7355 I'm just thinking out on my own accord fairly rationally, but I feel it's not realistic for transgender people to want to transition to act more like a specific person. My reasoning for this is that most trans people when asked how they know they're trans is they say they've always felt that way. This is quite vague and hard to grasp without an initial motivation to act upon. I will create that motivation shortly but I feel this debunks your idea that somebody could want to transition because they want to be a specific person because it's to obvious, a trans person would know oh I just wanted to be more like this person rather than having a vague statement like 'I've just always felt like this'. Ok, so the motivation for somebody to want to either be a transman/ transwoman might be as follows: when a person thinks they have enough overlap with properties of the opposite sex they desire or heavily dislike (The disliking their own sex has a lot more weight) such that they think is an appropriate amount to want to be the opposite sex for a permanent or semi-permanent amount of time. Thanks for reading please reply if you have any thoughts or suggestions :)

[@godforreal7355]

@@copiryte9535 whether a self identified trans gendered person chooses a specific role model or forms one in the aggregate out of perceived "properties of the opposite sex" , I think the point stands. These properties are based on stereotypes that may or may not have any validity to them. Can't anyone do anything they want as the person they are? I'm having a hard time thinking of a personal identity, no matter how stereotypically male or female they are, that one cannot accomplish without trying to pass themselves off as another sex. A woman can be a lumberjack, and a man can be a glamour model. Saying they need to cut out their generals or change their brain chemistry or compel others to refer to themselves in a special way to be more like the person they want to be is, well sexist. I don't want to insult any person struggling with an inability to accept themselves. It sounds horrible. But I think the most compassionate thing to do for someone in this position is to get them some mental health support, not surgical intervention. I would even venture to say someone dealing with this kind of identity crisis can't consent to that kind of surgery anyway.

[@copiryte9535]

@@godforreal7355 Still going on tangent here on my own thoughts, But we recognise a man being a glamour model and a woman being a glamour model are fundamentally different things they're doing the same thing, but people and society and themselves will think of them fundamentally different. You said 'Can't anyone do anything they want as the person they are?' Now assign a task to a cis-man to be a female glamour model based on your parameters that is fundamentally impossible, but that would mean our original statement was false (anyone do anything they want as the person they are). Thus we have a contradiction so our original assumption is false. This seems quite like an edge case but we are talking about 0.5% of the population so it's not unreasonable to assume that it resonates with that % of people. As we fundamentally perceive a man and woman glamour model differently I think it's possible for a man to prefer to have the female connotations of being a glamour model rather than the male connotations. In the ideal world we wouldn't want people to be sexist, I'm not saying the world is sexist but if something is different there can be perceived connotations of being male or female in society. In this perfect world there would be no reason why somebody would prefer being a female glamour model over a male glamour model so there would be nobody wanting to change their gender because of that however that isn't the world we leave in and there are clear distinctions between how you have male and female connotations in society. Out of curiosity, how exactly would you help a person who has the inability to accept themselves, like what mental health support do you give them, do you try to tell them that there is no reason for wanting to change their gender-etc because there is no difference? What if this specific individual hates the look of their secondary sexual characteristics do you tell them to just accept them? The analogy I have in my head is that person is the same as a depressed person you can't just tell them to get over it, but there's a high chance they won't be depressed if they get the 'mainly' hormones that they want in order to look like the person they are in their head. At least these are my thoughts so far let me know if you have anymore.

[@godforreal7355]

@@copiryte9535 you made a lot of points and I’ll try my best to handle all of them. I’m enjoying this discourse and please feel free to be as rigorous as possible. Incidentally, I just want to be clear that I’m talking about human beings with whom i empathize and in some respects identify. Life is very hard and finding your place in the world is very difficult. Now then, my claim that “anyone can do whatever they want as the person they are” holds correct in the case of the glamour model in that the person he _is_ is _male_ . No, he cannot be a female glamour model because he cannot _be_ a female. But, given enough makeup shaving and walking in heels, a man can achieve the effect of a gorgeous, feminine even, glamour model. I’ve seen drag queens pull it off quite well. Whether or not Balenciaga will hire him, I don’t know. As for the world being sexist, I assume it is. I wish it weren’t. I wish people didn’t litter. I pick up litter and when I come upon sweeping generalizations about what men or women ought to do, or their connotations, I don’t accept them. If I really want to be a glamour model and the world is laughing at me, the healthiest thing to do is discount the naysayers and do whatever makes me truly happy, not change myself to better fit their idea of how I should behave (given, of course that I’m not hurting anyone). I think there are multiple complex disorders associated with dysphoria including depression. I’m not a professional, but I’d guess narcissism, low self esteem through avolition, maybe autism, immature personality disorder, adjustment disorder, or maybe social anxiety disorder. But I’m way out of my depth here. So, however you treat those, I’m not the guy to ask. I don’t think it would be akin to just telling a depressed person to get over it. Actually, I think srs is closer to that.

[@godforreal7355]

When i ask someone who is trans how they know they're trans, they say they just feel that way. To me, it looks like they just prefer the stereotypes of the opposite sex. Can't a man wear a dress and paint his fingernails, grow his hair long, wear makeup and do all of the things a woman is "supposed" to do? Wouldn't identifying as a woman be just embracing and perpetuating those stereotypes? The problem I've had with all of this, is that being a man, I've been treated like I'm dangerous. Like i have a lethal weapon in my pants and I'm compelled to hurt someone with it. It's very hard to be treated that way. A trans man will never be treated like that and will never have to deal with that issue, so they aren't men.

[@LorriSulpizio]

I have a lot of compassion for what you’re saying. As I raise my three boys, I don’t want them to be treated like they’re dangerous. So I understand how hard it is for men who are kind and loving to have to carry that.

[@fireglory23]

It's definitely about stereotypes, a huge component of gender is literally how other people immediately see you / what they impose on you based how you look. You could be a man who isn't dangerous but the matter of the fact is that society will assume men are dangerous. I can actually see that being one reason why a trans woman would want to transition. And I definitely disagree, look up trans men like Buck Angel and tell me he doesn't look intimidating.

[@godforreal7355]

@@fireglory23 no matter how convincing Buck Angel, or any male presenting transgendered person may be, as far as I can tell, not one has ever been accused of forcible sexual penetration. Maybe Google is obscuring the truth of the matter, but that particular crime seems to be associated with penis owning persons.