Dr. Mech Debunks Dog Myths! Leadership in Wolves Explained

Get ready to have your mind blown as Dr. David Mech joins me on Episode #43 of the "Ask the Pack Leader Show" with Steve Del Savio to debunk some of the most widespread wolf and dog myths out there! Understanding leadership in wolves has never been clearer.
In this eye-opening episode, renowned wolf biologist Dr. Mech, with over 40 years of research under his belt, sets the record straight. His insights on wolf behavior have been controversially spun in the dog training world, but today, he's here to clear the air once and for all. From dominance to pack leadership, we're diving deep into what these concepts really mean in the animal kingdom and how they apply to the world of dogs.
Are you ready for a fresh perspective on dog psychology and training? Prepare to challenge everything you thought you knew about being a pack leader. Dr. Mech's explains how the dog training community has severely misinterpreted and misrepresented his work.
Dr. Mech describes how many dog trainers have been spreading this misinformation about his work for decades and debunks this misinformation being spread by dog trainers about alpha theory, dominance theory, what is a pack leader, who are pack leaders and pack dynamics.
If you're a fan of Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer, you may understand how many people in the dog training community incorrectly used Dr. Mech’s studies to discredit Cesar’s approach to working with dogs. Dr. David Mech makes it very clear what his research found, and what he really said, so this is an episode you can't miss!
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#DrDavidMech #DogMythsDebunked #PackLeader #DogPsychology #DogWhisperer #DogBehavior #DogTraining #CesarMillan #AnimalBehavior #Leadership #Dominance #DogRehabilitation #AlphaTheory #DominanceTheory #DominanceDebunked #AlphaTheory #AlphaTheoryDebunked #DavidMech
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
01:43 Welcome Dr. David Mech
02:09 Is there a Pack? Pack Leaders?
02:50 Role of Pack Leader
04:12 Dominance? What is it?
05:30 Punishment
06:01 Dominance Not Once Size Fits All
07:18 1970 Book vs. 1999 Paper
09:03 Does Your Work Prove No Pack, No Dominance, No Leadership w/ Dogs?
09:45 Clarity of His Work
10:19 Objectivity in Science
11:06 Controversy w/ Studying Wolves
12:21 Observing Wolves in Wild
12:59 International Wolf Center
13:45 Controversy in Dog World
14:32 Different Dogs, People & Relationships
15:09 Ground Scratching
18:13 Observing Wolves in Nature vs. Captivity
19:16 Wolves at Yellowstone
21:50 Where to Find Dr. Mech Work
22:20 Thank You Dr. Mech

[@WendiwooJarmy]

Thank you for this interview!! I’m so sick of being told dogs don’t need a pack leader .. that it’s outdated 🤦🏻‍♀️🙈… I always say it’ can never be outdated it’s Mother Nature . And the hate for Cesar Millan needs to STOP 🛑 he is a genius .

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Love, hate or fear. The people who hate think its about the thing they are hating but in reality they have hate in their heart. Some will fear because they don't understand or are afraid to go against what they already know. Love is where open-mindedness, compassion, learning, empathy, understanding, forgiveness and so on happen. People expose their energy regularly with how they behave, comment on social etc. What's usually lacking is awareness.

[@CFootprints]

I highly recommend you watch the Illuminaughty channel video essay on Cesar Milan.

[@WendiwooJarmy]

@@CFootprints only if it’s positive about him . I will not watch anything that is negative towards Cesar . Iv used his methods on all my Rottweilers. On other peoples dogs .. on two escaped dogs that even dog wardens could not catch . I just used a Cesar Millan technique to catch the dogs and keep them safe . Cesar is a wonder of the world and anyone who doesn’t understand him doesn’t understand true canine behaviour. Happy Easter 🐣 x

[@WendiwooJarmy]

This is actual gold 🥇!!!! THANK YOU IL BE SHARING THIS EVERYWHERE

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Appreciate it🙏

[@Angeleno09]

Great interview. I look forward to reading more on David Mech's research. Thanks!

[@PackLeaderDogs]

It's fascinating work!

[@candacewoolard1221]

Awesome interview! Thank you for sharing this!

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Thank you Candace and my pleasure!

[@americandingo6715]

Love that you were able to get Dr Mech. There's been. A few things I don't agree with in your Training but this I'm so grateful you have this interview. I've been trying to explain to people what alpha theory really is. So many people including trainers don't bother to read his full journal I'm going to share this as much as possible. Trainers cherry pick articles off Google that have been written by people who cherry pick etc etc. And it doesn't help when people do not have comprehension skills.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

The main purpose of this was to end exactly that. The people who don't understand his work, cherry pick certain words and sentences to fit this outrageous narrative that all you need is sunshine, rainbows, and positive reinforcement to train or rehabilitate a dog. Its fascinating to see some of the comments who still can't comprehend. That being said, when people are completely close-minded, comprehension is often lost.

[@natmiguel47]

I like at 3:06 when he says "I am not an authority on dogs." Why we are still trying to study wolves to learn dogs is beyond me, and if you have not figured this out by now there is no hope for you, Dr. Mech says "I don't know" when referring to dogs.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

An entire community (ideology) of people cite his work as proof there is no such thing as a pack, no such thing as leadership, no such thing as dominance, etc. It's clearly a misinterpretation and has been misrepresented for years.

[@TmHudsonArt]

@@PackLeaderDogs DR Ray Coppinger studied free living dogs worldwide and he states in his work that they do not form packs like wolves. Maybe you should have a look at his work... Unfortunately, he has passed away so no chance to have an interview with him but he was definitely an authority on dogs and wild canids alike. He said that comparing dogs to wolves was pointless. All of the dog trainers I know do not use Mech's works to prove anything about dogs. They only cite his works as the reason as to why you shouldn't be comapring dogs to wolves.

[@Xuna39]

Oh my god how refreshing someone thinking exactly the same as me! I think this interview only proves one thing. Dr Mech is an authority in wolves, not dogs.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

@TmHudsonArt You're not understanding what we see as a pack with dogs. Dogs obviously dont get together, hunt, have breeding male and female, etc. We have domesticated them and they have 99% of the genetics of a wolf, they are obviously different. But to say a dog is not pack/family oriented is ludicrous. They absolutely are pack/family oriented. While it may be a different way where they see different species as their pack/family today, that instinct is 100% still there with dogs. Also, if you are close-minded and set that dogs are not pack/family oriented, feel free to have that belief. Not trying to convince you or anyone of what's so obvious if they don't want to see it.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

@Xuna39 If that's all you got out the interview, not much I can do than suggest figuring out how to improve your comprehension skills.

[@anetamigioia2764]

Great interview!

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Thank you Aneta!❤

[@EmiliooooEstevez]

Great interview. Not a lot of interviews of Dr Mech on youtube and certainly, not with dog trainers. Going through the comments I was surprised to see how some people interpreted Dr Mech’s words to fit their narrative. As a scientist, he had to remind us that he is an expert on wolves, not dogs and probably does not want to get caught in the dog training controversy, but it is good to hear him talk about the wolf pack, the roles of the leaders, etc as some folks often claim that the wolf pack hierarchy is a myth. I guess now the argument will be that dogs are not wolves, so we can not learn anything about dogs by studying wolves.

[@americandingo6715]

It's easy to know when somone hasn't read his work. What's awful is that many if not all of the companies that offer a degree in dog training use his work they have misinterpreted more often than not because they have NOT read it in its entirely, to promote a methodology and they are wrong.

[@americandingo6715]

And yet those same people ignore the part where he says they training community has misinterpreted his work for years to fit their narrative. 🙄

[@littlemama4two]

That was quite interesting!

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Happy to hear you enjoyed! Plan to have more guests like him in the future!

[@canineconnoisseur]

Let's Gooo!! #DogPsychologyBeforeDogTraining

[@PackLeaderDogs]

🙏🙏🙏

[@WendiwooJarmy]

YES 🙌🏼 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@xamaqueen1902]

Wow! I think dogs are “enough wolf for me!” 😬 thanks Steve I love this interview! ❤@packleaderdogs #davidmerck Go away together exploring a wolf pack!

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Would seriously love that!

[@ypxgame]

thankyou

[@PackLeaderDogs]

My pleasure❤️

[@ashleymorris6636]

Its so obvious that there's a dominance structure in place, if so, how would they survive?.....: who would teach the young ones how to hunt and survive? Who would teach manners like how rough to play how to communicate and just general socialising within the pack. A puppy that is being annoying or what ever gets corrected. This is pritty much in all mammals as they learn through their parents and the group. The only mammal i can of that gets left on its own after 3 weeks is a seal but they still learn when they meet up in the future with its own kind.

[@Las_Brujas_la_manada]

❤

[@PackLeaderDogs]

❤❤

[@TmHudsonArt]

Maybe you should look at Dr Ray Coppingers work. I love Mech but he says it here that he is not an authority on dogs which means he recognises there will be differences. Dr Ray Coppinger went all over the world studying free living village dogs. He states specifically that they do not form organised packs. They may congregate in lose open groups where there is a concentration of resources but these do not have leaders or resemble a wolf pack in any way. I have 3 bitches here with me and always lived with mutiple dogs and never been able to find a linear dominance heirarchy..even back when i used to believe that stuff. What I do find is very complex creatures who all have their own likes and dislikes and learn each others likes and dislikes the same way that we do. To know why a dog makes a decision is to assume we know what that dog values most in that moment. We cannot make assumptions like that. A dog may let another take its toy because it values social cohesion more than it values the toy. A dog that is well fed may let another dog take the food because maintaining good relations with that dog is more important..and a dogs quality of life are greatly increased by social bonds and thus this is just as important a resource as food etc.....but starve that dog and make it hungry and see how things may change then. The fitness landscape of any dog will vary and will not always be the same and since we are restricted within the parameters of our own nervous systems, we are unable to know the fitness landscape of any other creature. Other people can tell us but dogs cannot. I have seen behaviour where dogs are more tolerant where they spend more time with the other dogs but less tolerant when it comes to dogs they spend less time with...even the same dog if the situation changes and they now spend less time meaning they now don't tolerate things they did. This tells me the dog valued social cohesion over the resource the dominance people assume they value most such as food or sex or sleeping places etc...one of my current bitches in particular was very obvious in how tolerant she was when it came to dogs she liked as opposed to pushy obnoxious types. She would let a little wriggly friendly spaniel take her plastic bottle she found for example...the type of dog she could easily flatten and would definitely not argue with her...because she didn't like to get into arguments with dogs she liked...but if a big pushy GSD came and tried to forcefully take it, she'd give them what for and was willing purely because she didn't really care for them anyway and there was no friendship or social cohesion to preserve....There are far more resources than just the ones we see and can touch. Freedom from pain, freedom from fear, relationships with dogs they like and who's presence increases their quality of life...these are all resources and may or may not be more important than food, sex or toys at any given time to the individual dog so why are we assuming a dog is submitting when it allows another to take some resource? The dog may be letting them take it by choice. Only the dog can decide which resources are maximizing their quality of life at any given time. I have seen behaviour in my own where one dog can take toys from the other sometimes but then the other takes toys from them at other times and they often play swap games. If one dog gets the toys all the time, it is always because that dog values toys more highly than the other anyway...or maybe the other has higher value for something else than can be threatened by getting into a fight over a toy and this choosing not to in order to preserve the other resource we cannot necessarily see and touch. Like us, they are always juggling numerous variables when they are making decisions in their interaction with others. I think that dogs are far more complex than dominance heirarchy can ever give them credit for. Such a simplistic explanation that doesn't make sense anyway does not do them justice. As somebody that has always trained my dogs, compete in dog sports etc..I have never felt the need to be some silly pack leader. I just teach the dogs in a kind way what i like (To them is is more about what they get out of it) and we work together as a team.

[@nigelreed]

HI Tim, I can happily debate you on this subject. Feral dogs indeed do not form organised packs. Feral dogs have lost their way with regards to organisation. Through the evolutional changes to their appearance, feral dogs are not physically strong or fast enough to take down large prey, and so do not get the opportunity to hone their skills and teamwork. As a consequence of this change in the group formation, the pack is not working together as a single unit to achieve a collective goal. Instead, they act more like a group with different priorities, and so different behaviours and a different type of attachment form. Feral dogs are scavengers, and each dog will work independently for food but, being social animals, they collaborate for security and companionship. It is more akin to a bunch of friends cohabiting, where they would have some needs fulfilled together, but not all. As a result there is often more than one breeding pair and the father dog does not contribute as much as a wolf father, creating high pup mortality rates. So the leadership model of behaviour becomes clouded whereas, in a functional wolf pack or human family, the co-operative group or pack of subordinates looks to their leaders to be provided with answers regarding their needs. Observations of dysfunctional behaviour resulting in poorly met needs and high mortality rates do not prove that a leadership model cannot exist with feral dogs, domestic dogs or people, in the same way as a Lord of the Flies or a poorly run business scenario does not, either; it only proves that, through the existing circumstances, each group/pack/tribe/family of dogs, or family of parents and young children etc. always needs clear leadership to survive and have a good quality of life. Dogs, whatever their environment, will always have to ask fundamental questions about their survival in regards to their needs. Where is the next meal coming from? Who provides the food? Is this situation dangerous? Who is going to deal with the danger? Who is issuing the requests? Dogs need us to answer these questions by making sensible decisions regarding their needs, because they cannot effectively fulfil them for themselves. Their environment and physical appearance may have changed, but dogs have to involve humans in these questions because how effectively their owners meet their needs has a direct effect on their survival. To disregard these questions of human influences over canines, which demonstrates either that the person will act as a caregiver or will need taking care of, denounces a dog’s ability to assess others’ actions regarding their needs and respond. Without this ability the dog would not survive! Supporters of a solely bottom-up model absent of some kind of leader still often belie their beliefs by acting as a leader with their own dogs by providing for their needs, even if they put a different interpretation on their actions. The evidence to support a leader/follower theory through an understanding of needs and original nature seems to be self-evident, but all observations are subject to individual interpretation. There have been countless observations of dogs that feel safe with one member of the household but not with another. I have seen many dogs change dramatically from being aggressive in trying to warn off intruders to being calm and responsive, depending on who is looking after them and whom they feel responsible for. There is a different tone to the bark used to alert another member of the family compared to that used to warn off an intruder. In the former case the dog is looking to the human to make decisions regarding its safety, and in the latter it has assumed responsibility for its own and others’ safety. This is a clear sign of the different roles the dog fulfils in each relationship in a leader/follower scenario. It regularly comes down to the same core issue: who thinks they are providing for whom? Of course, all undesirable behaviour does not mean a dog has assumed the position of leader! There are many dogs out there that simply haven’t been taught the rules yet, or are just assessing what they can and cannot get away with. There is a big difference between a dog who believes it is in charge and one who needs to be taught a correct response. In both cases the dog may need teaching the correct response, but the former type will be less open to it than the latter. Likewise, there are children who only need teaching a few times because they do not understand, and who look to their parents for guidance, whilst other children do not respect the authority of their parents, and are more likely to hold on to the control they have inadvertently been handed. In these scenarios we also commonly refer to the children as thinking they are in charge. Dominance is often not linear in every situation as there are many variables to consider - especially if they are not at the top spot.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

@@nigelreed If they can't understand from this comment, they will never understand. Excellently put.

[@millie2108]

if you, or no one knows why dogs do ground scratching, why in your video do you say you know exactly why that dog is ground scratching and train it out of a dog? how are you training dogs by assuming things about why they do their behaviour? thats so unprofessional and just crazy? this hasn’t really changed anything about how i see it tbh, and before you come at me for having a ‘closed mind’ just because i disagree with you, dogs always have my best interest at heart. so if this were to teach me something counter to what i believe i would have no problem in saying so if it would benefit my relationship with my dogs and the dogs i work with at the shelter. but, dr mech said himself that wolves are a family pack with a human-like hierarchy. dr mech is an expert on wolves and clearly doesn’t know a lot about dogs, which speaks volumes to me and really shows the gap between wild wolves and domesticated dogs. so training domesticated dogs using an approach that has been formulated around wolves is just crazy? i personally have a big issue with it and i find it disrespectful to the dogs themselves. they deserve better and more respect than to be trained to be afraid if they do something wrong and forced into submission. the exact same way i would have a problem with a human family setting that the parent(s) were using extremely strict rules & fear based tactics to make the children do what they want.

[@justinherd1534]

Do you think dogs are the only species in the animal kingdom that doesn’t have a hierarchy? The answer is right in front of you😂

[@dogsensetrainingandbehavio903]

@@justinherd1534 there’s no real evidence dogs have dominance hierarchies. Using dominant behavior to control certain resources does not mean dogs are ‘dominant’ or are trying to work their way up the social orders This interview did nothing to support this trainers views

[@dogsensetrainingandbehavio903]

Completely agree. This interview did nothing to support the notion of dominance hierarchies in dogs. Dominance is a social behavior, humans can provide leadership..but this trainers views on correcting scratching behavior weren’t supported & he failed to acknowledge that. This interview had a clear agenda & didn’t get desired outcome. I’d say it weakened this trainers training ideology if anything

[@marzhelliel7257]

​@@dogsensetrainingandbehavio903 if there was no hierarchy in dogs there would be no possibility for them to live in groups. Also there's no such thing as dominance hierarchy, there is only hierarchy. They defined dominance in this interview. The most dominant being is the one who provides resources, teaches and makes decisions. In most cases it's about energy and they don't need to fight over it. Read the books and science papers and maybe you will get it.

[@dogsensetrainingandbehavio903]

@@marzhelliel7257 some species do actually have dominance hierarchies. E.g. chimpanzees, baboons, chickens, to name a few. Dogs do not have such dominance hierarchies. There is a difference between dominant behaviour (gaining priority access to a particular resource) & Dominance in terms of social status. There are various types of dominance styles & the limited research looking at dogs has found various styles in different groups of dogs. Evidence shows dogs do see humans as dominant because we control resources but some researchers state they wouldn’t describe it that way (e.g. Beckoff) as the term is too loaded & we certainly don’t need to police/establish dominance ‘over them’ by doing things like correcting scratching behavior or alpha rolling etc. Just provide rules/boundaries around resources. Simple. It’s not about ‘energy’ as you describe it (that’s a vague term with no functional definition), it’s about clarity of communication, control of the environment & how resources are provided. I’ve read quite an extensive amount of literature & don’t just read or ask researchers questions to merely try to confirm a bias, as this trainer has. Suggesting I don’t ‘get it’ would be based on an assumption.

[@WendiwooJarmy]

My male rotti started scratching the ground after a wee .. he would growl and his hair on end .. so I started correcting him because he can be dominant to other un neutered males .. Correcting this and any dominant signs has made him a lot calmer !! 🤗

[@xamaqueen1902]

Lol 😝 great work! I should try this too on my 3.8kg toy shmoodle who thinks she’s the boss of me lol 😝 My fault 💯 because I pick her up like she’s a little baby, place her in a cute baby doggie backpack hand feed her and when it’s time to come back to me to get going does she come? Not exactly 😮she likes to show me that she doesn’t need me, I need her! Lol 😝

[@xamaqueen1902]

@photag216 💯

[@xamaqueen1902]

@photag216 💯 they are so cute to baby though that’s the problem! I myself am guilty of babying my toy shmoodle - have been trying to show her lately she’s not the boss anymore bc she’s 6 now & it took a while bc she use to bark at men running and even men walking past me 🙄😳 at a crossing 🙄🫤 and men on bicycles 🚲 and she even chased after a motorbike 🏍 once also! That’s when I thought no I must be tough on her now for her own safety!

[@quinncolby]

Did you go? I live close to Yellowstone.

[@quinncolby]

Great interview! Thank you

[@JamieHumeCreative]

The breeding pair. The parents are the leaders, teachers, protectors. Equally so.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

@@JamieHumeCreative Parents are leaders yes. Just not equally so. There’s a division of labor and they lead in different ways.

[@theholisticgroomingacademy9356]

Got to 3 minutes 54 seconds and had to stop. This interview was over the moment Dr Mech said "he cannot speak for dogs". I think the most significant thing for all dog people to take away from this is that we CANNOT compare wolf behaviour (whether captivated or wild) with domesticated dogs and the human family set up. The number of individuals who have commented on this interview below to justify the use of dominance theory in dogs is shocking and a great indication of how ignorant and/or downright silly people are... While it is true that in one study 85 different breeds of dog were tested and found to descend from the Grey Wolf, there is a 0.04% genetic difference between dogs and wolves - in genetic terms, this is HUGE. So huge that it is enough to distinguish two very different species, much like the genetic similarities between humans and apes. I think this man is incredibly interesting HOWEVER if you are a dog professional and/or carer looking to discover ways to enhance the bond you share with dogs, this is not the resource that's going to give you the advice you need - how many times does Mech have to say that he is not an authority in DOGS.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

@@theholisticgroomingacademy9356 The point of this interview was to “debunk” the enormous amount of dog professionals, mainly from a close-minded ideology, who misuse and misrepresent Dr. Mech’s work to claim that “there is no such thing as dominance in dogs.” It’s a complete misrepresentation of his work which he explains later in the interview but you wouldn’t know since you didn’t listen to the whole interview. Reading your comment, it’s obvious you still don’t understand but I wouldn’t expect you to since you weren’t able to watch the whole interview with an open-mind. Dominance 100% exists in wolves and 100% exists in dogs. Most don’t understand what it is and want to believe their incorrect understanding of dominance doesn’t exist in dogs. Emotions vs. logic. What’s silly is making ridiculous claims that people who understand that dominance exists in dogs means they “justify the use of dominance theory in dogs.” Again shows you don’t have a grasp of what the original paper on dominance theory IN WOLVES was actually saying or what Dr. Mechs 1999 study corrected about it. Both explain there is 100% dominance, just not how they originally thought. Again, the “force free” “positive only” or whatever fake marketing terms they use today have used his work to claim there is no dominance in dogs. This interviews purpose was to show that is a lie and a misrepresentation of his work and nothing to do with “justifying the use of dominance theory” which doesn’t even make sense. Dr. Mech is tired of these false claims which is why he agreed to having this interview.

[@Levitt777]

The whole Switcheroo sides sting so you can make money off both ? Disgusting

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Switcheroo sides? Switching from what to what? So I can make money? How exactly do ai make money of a wolf scientist explaining answer questions about the pack dynamics of a wolf pack? 🤷‍♂️

[@lsouthern64]

Great interview if you want to learn about wolves. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs may have a fluid hierarchical behavior which changes based on circumstances. Dogs do not exist in packs. Packs work together to accomplish a goal. Dogs are scavengers. It appears with this interview, you’ve supported everything the Force-Free community has been saying for years. Additionally, there is no such thing as interspecies dominance. Dogs do not look to you as their leader. You are merely the provider of resources, which can serve to create emotional bonds with their humans. If you think you’re strengthening your bond with your dog by punishing it, think again.

[@PackLeaderDogs]

Fascinating that's your interpretation of the interview. Also, a bunch of claims you made that are completely false. I've surrendered to the fact that some people will just not get it. If you believe all the things you said in your comment, so be it. I respectfully completely disagree with and have no interest in trying to convince you of anything. Wush you all the best, sincerely.