Dr. Michael Brown debates Matthew Vines: Can You Be Gay and Christian?

[@lisaspears2807]

I was gay when I was younger,and knew I had been born that way, and went to bible studies with "gay christians" As we would get to scripture about homosexual sin, the teacher would always say that it doesn't apply to loving gays. I would ask questions about the other sins like adultery? Of course it only apply's to gays. I came to the realization, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that you can not be gay and Christian. I am now married, and happy that I have been delivered from that life style sin.

[@jv777jv]

***** You seem to be the one living the lie Michael Hall because you don't know the power of God

[@TheBluegoatman]

***** Just as I have seen so many gays do, Ms. Lisa Spears is now shamed by another gay for having a testimony of God changing her life. Why is it that gay people that have God tell them their "gayness" is a good thing are held in the highest of regard while those with a different story are ridiculed. How amazing that gays take the same positions they claim to hate of mainstream Christians and bash those that are brave enough to tell there story of leaving the "church" of homosexuality. For a community that is supposed to be so open minded and accepting you sure do tear and berate those that disagree with you. Way to act like Jesus. I would have to say your own words calls into question your belief in Christ much more so than your lifestyle choice.

[@1norville]

***** That gave you a woody didn't it?

[@lisaspears2807]

Joe R. I had a marriage ceremony with my girlfriend, way before it became political, went to a gay church and all that, but when I read the bible, I couldn't make it say what I wanted it to say. and the gay bible teacher could do all the language gymnastics she could, but I didn't see how God's word allowed me to live as a lesbian and be accepted by God through Christ. I couldn't change what God had said, so through the Holy Spirit He changed me. I am not living a lie, I am living the way nature intended it to be. I pray all homosexuals would see that nature is the best teacher against homosexuality.

[@lisaspears2807]

***** I am not living a lie, I am living the truth of the way nature intended it to be.

[@JimofAustin1]

I would love it if Mr. Vines and Dr. Brown would have a long, structured, public debate without any commercial interruptions. I think it would be very helpful.

[@xander7ful]

I am a bisexual, celibate Charismatic Catholic. I believe that gay sex is wrong & choose to be celibate for that reason. Leviticus 20:13 addresses behavior, not orientation. I don't agree with these LGBT Christians who try to reinterpret Scripture to accommodate their behavior. But I also don't agree with hyper-conservative Christians who believe that even our orientation is sinful.

[@LFTV]

Xander Taylor Thanks so much for weighing in, and may the Lord give you strength and fulfillment as you seek to honor Him.

[@jasonm8362]

limitattitude I am so sorry, I had a LONG day yesterday and clearly, I misunderstood what you typed. I take full responsibility for my idiocy, lol! In all seriousness, please forgive my ignorance. You are one of the good ones for sure. :)

[@matthewsmith9570]

Good for you! The bible says hate the sin love the sinner not hate the sin hate the sinner there can be a lot of condemnation, alienation and shame! They are misguided forgive them! However I agree with you! You can be gay and Christian people who claim to be are cutting out bits of the bible to suite themselves actually like the Christian spiritualist movement! Be a Christian be a Christian but don't be a hypocrite, greedy Christian means for Christ not for carnal hendenistic lifestyle we have to chose are we our own gods or Christian! Then you would know the fruits of the spirit!

[@SupernalOne]

Xander Taylor One might consider context - Leviticus is instructions from an ancient Hebrew prophet to his own people, and some of the restrictions don't even appear to make any sense these days. The Hebrews were an agrarian people who lived by the breeding of their herd animals, so fruitful copulation was gneerally of primary importance. And the Hebrews were menaced in the north by warrior cultures such as Persia, Mesopotamia, and Macedonia, which glorified male bonding and saw women as chattel fit only for breeding. So Leviticus was exhorting Hebrews to hold true to the values of their own culture. Consider: Jesus Christ himself never spoke against consensual homosexual sex, and He was God incarnate on earth - wouldn't He have stressed this message if He actually cared? Paul was against the Roman decadence that surrounded Israel, so he spoke out against self-indulgent sexual practices (which the Romans were big on) - and Sodom's sin was betrayal of trust and general abuse of guests, I'm sure they also raped their female captives. Didn't Christ change the world when He came? Do the old laws for Hebrews apply these days to the world? Why does God make people gay if He doesn't like them to be so, He's supposed to be a God of love - I am not afraid of God, or at least I am eager to see Him, not afraid of Him. Until then, I follow the teachings of Christ, that we should love and not judge one another. If no one gets hurt, then how is a thing bad? Does God make us jump through arbitrary hoops and send us to Hell if we don't obey? I will not believe that, nor will I follow such commandments as they are interpreted by Calvinist Puritan American Christian doctrine. As for Hell, I'll take my chances and face God on my own recognizance. If you judge me for it, that's your own fate.

[@llunde22]

Xander Taylor Romans and other books do cover orientation saying in several places calling the desire for people of the same sex as "unnatural" (if I understand what you're saying about orientation, sorry if I misinterpreted what you said). Orientation is established Jesus, speaking about how a man leaves his mother and father to marry a woman, the initial creation was man and woman. I think orientation can be a misnomer in that it can cover up "unnatural" by calling it "orientation" or just "what you're born as". Homosexuality, both the sex and relationship part have to be wrong, not just one of them. I honor and thank you for choosing celibacy for reasons to please God, it's not easy as I am a celibate, straight dude (and 34 no less). It's very encouraging to me to see your kind of honesty and dedication to God, thanks for blessing me today.

[@Moochi19]

You can be a Christian struggling with homosexuality but not a one who lives in that lifestyle, it contradicts the word of God. Jesus changes people, the holy spirit changes people. God does not contradict himself. The heart of man is wicked and what we think is right in our eyes, God clearly points it out in his word.

[@jasonm8362]

Blue Tiger Why aren't you answering my questions??? ;)

[@Moochi19]

Jason M If I were you I would spare your own self embarrassment. Your bringing up things that make you look really stupid. This is actually not true, they are not the same as homosexuals because they were born with a condition/ deformity within their chromosomes. If you want to compare it to homosexuality then you would have to agree that homosexuals have a deformity as well. That will beat out your whole argument. People with other disabilities and deformities are caused by genetic mutation or damage to the fetus or uterus, complications at birth, a growth or hormone disorder, arthritis and other rheumatoid disorders, fractured bones left to heal without being properly set, cerebral palsy, paralysis, etc. So you would have to agree that homosexuals were born with abnormality so I would be wise in choosing a better argument against you case. And if you read what I wrote properly, I never said inter-sexual were only made as eunuchs not to mention that I don't need your teaching on eunuch because I know what they are. Anyone with a disability can get married, but its also a reality that most don't get married.

[@matthewsmith9570]

You can be Christian and struggle with any sin! You could be tempted to steal even our desires not actions are sin if a man convents his neighbours oxe that is a sin! Jealously is a sin! So saying that I am celebrite is not necessary okay! Watching porn maybe sinful cause there is conventness!

[@Moochi19]

Matthew Smith Porn is sinful because their is lust which can lead to other sexual behavior.

[@XYZ___976]

Blue Tiger why is the bible the ultimate authority?

[@healthyheartshealthyminds]

The problem with deception is people don't know they have been deceived.

[@lovelybeebeauty]

The only problem I see is that with Matthew he's just unwilling to submit himself to the authority of Christ and follow His leadership. If we want to follow Christ we must deny ourselves and follow Him. *please keep your negative comments to yourself* its all love and I'll keep him in prayer.

[@haroldmsimmons]

He's falsely interpreting the Bible justify his gay lifestyle. Satan is the master deceiver and he's using Matthew as his false prophet!

[@lovelybeebeauty]

David C I made this comment 6 years ago. I’m no longer a Christian sweetheart lol

[@thomaslim9817]

@@lovelybeebeauty May I ask why? I just want to listen to ur opinion and no judge

[@jfish032]

LOL

[@reggieroon]

@@lovelybeebeauty lololololol I'm SCREEEEECHING.

[@bchristian85]

As a celibate, closeted same-sex attracted person, there are four things I wish ministers who hold to the orthodox position would come to terms with and it would go a long way towards making the case for orthodox Christianity to people who suffer from this. Vines makes some very good points and comes at this issue from a testimonial perspective, something most who hold the traditional belief tend to write off. By meeting same-sex attracted people half way with the message rather than simply refuting everything that is their life experience, evangelicals might have more success at getting some people to listen. First, admit that while God can change sexual orientation, for a large number of people who deal with this issue he does not. Reparative therapy for many people has been very harmful and have left them depressed, with lost faith, or worse. Evangelical Christians who deal with this subject still heavily promote the idea of gay-to-straight conversion by therapy or other means and for a large number of people who deal with this issue, that never becomes reality. When it does not work, it causes many to walk away from the faith. Dr. Brown in this video oversells the prospect of conversion to heterosexuality. While it can and does happen, it is by far the exception more than the rule. The church needs to come to terms with this. Secondly, I wish evangelical Christianity would stop spreading myths about homosexuality and its causes. We don't know whether or not LGBT people are born that way, but an overwhelming majority of people who have a homosexual orientation will say that they did not choose it. Not all of them were molested or abused as a child. Furthermore, most gay people don't have 10,000 partners in a lifetime, ingest feces, etc like the literature that is distributed by the AFA says they do. It's time for evangelical Christianity to stop spreading these falsehoods if it ever wants to make inroads with same-sex attracted people. Thirdly, the church needs to come to terms with and admit the fact that most same-sex attracted people will be called to celibacy and that it will be a long and difficult life. They need to admit that the demands placed on same-sex attracted people are not "fair" and have a higher cost than the average straight Christian but that it is the standard of God and if we are going to serve him we have to go by his rules. Don't sugarcoat it with with promises that other things, especially church fellowship or same-sex platonic friends, are going to fill the void left by not having a spouse to do life with. It then needs to convey that while this will be a long and agonizing life, Christ is sufficient and will be there to help us through this life. Serving Christ has a high cost and for some people that is more than others, but it is rewarded in heaven. Lastly, the church needs to be an environment where people who struggle with same-sex attraction can be open and authentic about it. In our current environment, this is treated differently than other sins and many to confess that they deal with this issue end up being treated differently or even ostracized in the church. If a person is to be successful in this lifelong struggle, they have to have the support of a community of believers behind them and when the church is an environment where they have to conceal their sexual orientation struggles out of fear, that is setting them up to fail.

[@mrjayguess6895]

1. "First, admit that while God can change sexual orientation, for a large number of people who deal with this issue he does not." Wrong. Why should God want to change sexuality? the propensity for being homosexual is present from birth, and it is therefore a trait that God allowed in the first place. So why would he condemn millions simply for hoouring the sexuality that God gave them in the first place? That would make God an ogre. God loves you gay or not and accepts you gay or not. Nor does God 'change' people. Those gay people who have subsequent relations with the opposite sex are bisexual by definition, not suddenly 'straight'. 2. " Evangelical Christians who deal with this subject still heavily promote the idea of gay-to-straight conversion by therapy or other means" And they are no better than those who justified slavery and the oppresiion of 'lesser' black people purely so they could own slaves themselves. 3. " We don't know whether or not LGBT people are born that way," We now do. There is a good deal of evidence that poits to hormonal imbalance in the womb where "God knit us together " [Ps 139] And I take your point about the offensive garbage oublished by certain so-called "Christian" groups. It is an affront to God. 4." Thirdly, the church needs to come to terms with and admit the fact that most same-sex attracted people will be called to celibacy and that it will be a long and difficult life. " The question is why SHOULD they have a life like this? Why? 5. "if we are going to serve him we have to go by his rules." But God set NO rules against homosexuality as we know it. The passages of scripture that bigots like to cite are NOT about homosexuality. They are about pagan practices, pagan sex rites or same-sex prostitution but NOT about homosexuality. 6. "Lastly, the church needs to be an environment where people who struggle with same-sex attraction can be open and authentic about it. " They should be corrected just as racist slave owners were corrected 100-200 years ago. Just as misogynists are gradually being corrected in churches where women are oppressed. As a happily married ANglican minister (40 years this coming August) i have had a wonderful live blessed by God and blessed with two ch=ildren and two grandchildren (with more, we hopw and pray, on the way). You claim to be celibate and secretive about your sexualitybecause of the oppression and stigma of being gay and a christian, ad the way some point their fingers at you. My brother in Christ, most Christians will never condemn you. If you want to discuss the scriptures and why these vile fundamentalists are so wrong, please reply, or, if you prefer, send a provate KZbin message.

[@bchristian85]

Good points! First, I want to admit that I tend to lean towards the fact that sexual orientation cannot be changed. However, there are testimonies of people who have said otherwise and I kind of want to give them the benefit of the doubt. For the majority though, there is never any change in sexual orientation and even most who will admit to being "changed" will later relapse. If you are trying to reason with fundamentalists, they will immediately stop listening the minute you say sexual orientation can not be changed. That's why the important thing is to not try to convince them of that, but instead show them the facts that for a vast majority, change never happens. Show them the damage that is done by reparative therapy. Most fundamentalists, as stated in many of the posts below, believe that a gay person becoming straight is as easy as praying harder and going through counselling. They believe this because this is what the Family Research Council, their pastors, and conservative talk radio have been telling them for years. They refuse to listen to people who have actually walked that road. Anybody who claims it failed obviously just didn't pray hard enough or "enjoys the pleasures of sin too much" or they otherwise would have been able to change. Thing is, these myths can be dispelled without even challenging the traditional interpretation of the passages on homosexuality. Now for the question of why same-sex attracted people should have to live a life of celibacy and loneliness, if a person adheres to the traditional interpretation of scriptures dealing with homosexuality they don't have a choice. However, as you explained there are other interpretations so the issue isn't completely clear. One thing I will say is its very easy for fundies to condemn same-sex attracted people to crushing, agonizing lives of loneliness and celibacy when they themselves have never been faced with that and never will be. As for me, a large reason for my celibacy and secrecy is my environment. I have an extremely homophobic family and I live in a very conservative town where open homosexuality isn't really accepted. I really don't have an option unless I am willing to completely disown my family and face the social consequences in the environment in which I live.

[@mrjayguess6895]

bchristian85 Hello again. A few points: "First, I want to admit that I tend to lean towards the fact that sexual orientation cannot be changed." Absolutely. For the same reason that being black, or Asian, or left handed, cannot be changed. Those testimonies of those who claim they are now having opposite sex relationships show that these people are bisexual, by definition. It's interesting hw those who condemn homosexuals are strangely silent on transsexuals, or hermaphrodites, or intersex people because, presumably, there are no passages of scripture that they can twist to condemn them. 2. "Anybody who claims it failed obviously just didn't pray hard enough or "enjoys the pleasures of sin too much" or they otherwise would have been able to change." Yes. And yes, I agree that this nonsense can easily be dismissed. But when one is tryng to argue with bigots, it becomes pretty annoying how they will not accept fact. 3. "Now for the question of why same-sex attracted people should have to live a life of celibacy and loneliness..." They shouldn't. I am a heterosexual male, married - come August, for 40 years to the same wonderful woman. I have had a lovely relationship for life, with children and grandchildren. Why should *I* or anyone else deny others that love in their lives simply because they were born different from me? Love is love, and all love comes from God. 4. "if a person adheres to the traditional interpretation of scriptures dealing with homosexuality they don't have a choice. " WRONG!!!! The interpretations against homosexuality are NOT traditional. For hundreds of years there seemed no problem. Even in the Old testament days David's homoerotic relationship with Jonathan was never condemned - except by Jonathan's father Saul (who is painted as a nasty piece of work, incidentally). When Jesus healed the Centurion's "slave" (according to Matthew's account of this miracle he was his young gay lover, not a slave) no one batted an eyelid. It wasn't until fairly recently that homosexuals were seen as the new pariah, especially after racist laws were passed in the USA. Up to then, it was black people who were regarded as inferior, or women, or those with learning difficulties, or the left-handed. Now that is all illegal, attention has been turned towards the gay person. 5. "As for me, a large reason for my celibacy and secrecy is my environment. I have an extremely homophobic family and I live in a very conservative town where open homosexuality isn't really accepted. I really don't have an option unless I am willing to completely disown my family and face the social consequences in the environment in which I live." I don't know if you are a young man, or someone older. What you need to do is rea the following points: (a). If you are relatively young do you really want to live a lie for all of your life? Do you really want to keep looking over your shoulder for decades, or run scared that you might slip up in what you do or say? DO you want to remain lonely for the rest of your life? (b). If your family would "disown" you then that, frankly, says more about them than you. And in that case they are not worth kow-towing to just to preserve their own prejudices. If you are a young man or even a teenager, then your parents will never disown you. They may well be initially shocked, but parents are parents and will always (SHOULD always) love you. In fact, if you display any effeminacy or a disinterest in girls, most of your family will have already realised (or ar least suspected) your sexuality. 3. Your social environment is another issue. If you are a yound man, you can move. You can go to college. You can move to a town where the populace are more tolerant - and Christian. There is an amazing old movie called "Guess who is Coming to Dinner" where white parents Spencer Tracey and Katherine Hepburn are faced with their daughter bringing home her new fiance, played by that great (black) actor Sidney Poitier. The social comment in the film is amaxing. Poitier's character is all one could hope for in a son-in-law - kind, generous, honest, head-over-heels in love with the daughter, intelligent, hard working and with great prospects - but all they can see is his black face. And when the two sets of parents meet, the black family think exactly the same. Eventually things respove and prejudice and bigotry are laid aside. Nowadays we translate that situation into homosexuality. I am a Christian minister myself, as is my wife, ministering in the UK. And it appalls me how some can claim to be "Christian" yet abuse, cherry-pick and carefully select scripture to justify their own prejudices. That is not Christian, any more than racism is Christian. I do hope and pray that one day you will accept your own sexuality and stand proud in the way God created you, despite what others may initially say. God bless John

[@mrjayguess6895]

***** 1. "God did not make anyone a homosexual MrJayguess and homosexuality is a sin" There have been nearly 600 studies completed by the best medical minds since the 1960s and published in the most eminent journals on the planet - studies completed by doctors that vermin like YOU go bleating to when you are ill. And not ONE of these studies has EVER shown homosexuality to be a "choice". If you like I can cite a few of them. On the contrary the research points to sexuality being caused by a hormonal balance in the womb as the foetus develops. Psalm 139 confirms that it is GOD who knitted us together in the womb and so it is GOD who determines our sexuality - whether gay or straight and whether you like it or not Nor is it 'unnatural' , because homosexuality has been found in 1500 species and has been studied in 500, and the conclusion drawn that it is a NATURAL state of affairs that limits population growth of certain species. Stand corrected. 2. "Please find a verse in the Bible that is pro-homo and also I want you to find me a verse that says God created some people homosexual" God blessed the relationship between David and Jonathan whereas the evil Saul did not. God also blessed the relationship between Daniel and Asphenaz, also clearly homoerotic. When the centurion came to Jesus to heal his "slave" Matthew describes him as the soldier's gay lover in the original Greek of the passage. That is why he was compelled, as a pagan and a conquering force, to come to Jesus to ask for healing when the usual thing to do with an ill slave was to put him out to die and buy another. And Jesus praises the centurion for his faith caring not a bit about his sexuality. I have already pointed out that sexuality is determined in the womb and that God did not just allow this to happen (Ps 139: 13-14) but instigated it. Stand corrected again, you bigot. 3. So now you realise that you cannot answer to the points I raised and have to resort to cut-and-paste stuff from an AMATEUR website? The SAME website that insists that Genesis is a "scientfic" account? That insists that those who understand the Hebrew of the Adam and Eve story and its allegorical nature (as do all Jews) cannot be 'proper' Christians? You might as well cite Karl Marx as "proof" that Communism is actualy a brilliant political system LOL What a nutter. All this crap can be dismissed with one simple question which this nonsense, surprise, surprise, did not cover. If David's relationhip with Jonathan was merely "friendship", then *why did Jonathan enter a marriage covenant with David?* ("Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul." [1 Sam 18:3]) much to the disgust of Jonathan's father, Saul, who claimed that Jonathan had brought *sexual* shame in the family. And before you claim it was not a marriage covenant, the word used here is IDENTICAL with the covenant made between both Abraham and Jacob and their wives. Stand corrected again,. Now, as I asked last time, which you ignored, cite for us ANY passages that are not about paganism or the like, that condemn homosexuality as we know it. I will wait with baited breath.... Or is this the point where you run away? PS.... And while you are trying to formulate your response, just look at your evil, vile condemnatory posts here and compare them with the pastoral loving comments I have made to people like bchristian85, and all Christians who are persecuted by scum like you, and ask yourself which of the two if us reflects the love of Christ?

[@mrjayguess6895]

***** At last you provide some scriptures that you claim denounce homosexuality. WRONG. First you cite 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?? Since when has an indictment of pagan sex practices been the same as homosexuality? According to you this seems on face value to make it perfectly clear that neither the wicked, the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers "nor homosexuals" would 'enter the Kingdom of God'. The passage in 1 Corinthians has stirred up much debate from bigots like you over its proper interpretation. But Paul does NOT refer to homosexuals as we know them second term used for homosexual. Paul, instead, uses the term "arsenokoitai" literally meaning a generic term for men who engage in *pagan, paid acts of sodomy as part of religious ritual.* "Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds." Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to "homosexuals", it is CERTAIN that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, as I have already stated, he would have used the word "paiderasste." That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual behaviour between males. This means that Paul *certainly meant something different than people who engaged in loving male-male sexual behaviour. * When the King James Bible was finished 1611, there was *no single word that referred to homosexuals or homosexuality.* The translators were forced to use an awkward phrase. Like modern 21st century words such as ‘television’, ‘computer’ and ‘iPod’, the term "homosexual" was only created in the late 19th century. More recent versions of the Bible translate arsenokoitai here differently and more akin to as “pagan homosexual offenders” (NIV) which places the emphasis away from homosexuality itself but implies the correct interpretation that these people were offending God by engaging in pagan activities, although the sort of offence is not clear in the translation -- ONLY in the Greek. This is confirmed in Romans 1 where Paul is even MORE specific where he describes exactly how some of the Romans offended in pagan sex-rites because _"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."_ (Rom 2:22-23) We are then told that *"Because of this,* God gave them over to shameful lusts..."(v26). Ignorant bigoted people like you, who have never studied the scriptures in REAL depth interpret all of the Biblical passages that touch on homosexuality as condemning homosexuality in all its forms. Yet in Corinthians Paul is not writing general instructions for all Christians for all time, but responds to a specific set of questions posed by the Corinthians to which he answers in his letter. It is therefore clear that the main thrust of this passage is the reaction to paganism in the religiously cosmopolitan city of Corinth rather than anything else. Here he seems more concerned with the problem of Christians still being involved in pagan sex rite worship in a church which should be "washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ" and the inclusion of homosexuals in this list is a reference solely to the pagan temple prostitutes who ritually engaged in pagan same-sex activities. Now BE told I could easily cite many Christian Biblical scholars - even of the Hebrew Bible - to back up claims of the existence of homosexuality within the Bible. Most scholars believe that it is reasonable to assume that many loving gay and lesbian relationships existed in Biblical times. Rabbi Gershon Caudill, a world-renowned expert on the Hebrew scriptures, wrote: _"Like all indigenous peoples, the Jews were not overly concerned about male homosexuality, where two men lived together in a monogamous, sexual relationship. As a rule, it did not get any notice....The Talmud does not record a single instance of a person being brought before the Sanhedrin on the charge of homosexual activity." [Gershon]_ Why is that then? If homosexuality as we would know it is 'so wrong' (in YOUR eyes, not God's) the Bible is strangely silent on sexual behaviour within a consensual, monogamous committed homosexual relationship. I would not be surprised if you also tried to back up your own prejudice by identifying the sin of the men of Sodom as explained in Genesis 19 as 'homosexual' but it is, in fact, an attempt to rape strangers as an act of humiliation -- a common practice amongst pagans as an act of domination over conquered peoples. You also, no doubt, quote other biblical passages mentioning Sodom as 'evidence' but in fact the main sin of that city was their uncharitable behaviour towards strangers, and their uncaring conduct towards the poor, the widows, and needy. Paul, as a Pharisee schooled in the Law, would have known these verses well and it is very plausible that if Sodom was compared with Corinth it would be the PAGAN practices that concerned him more than anything else. But there NEVER seems any condemnation ANYWHERE in scripture, and certainly not by Paul, of a loving same-sex relationship such as that between David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi or Daniel and Ashpenaz whether sexual or not. Now, if you wish, I can do a similar thing regarding Romans and Leviticus. But bear this in mind:- Considering Christ's actions with the Centurion's "slave"/lover, and bearing in mind the belief by most Christians that scripture is the Word of God, and also bearing in mind the teachings of love and acceptance, not only by Paul, but by Our Lord himself, what would Jesus Himself do? If you believe he condemns, then you are NOT following the Christ of the Bible, but a bastardised view of scripture own inbuilt that is shallow, twisted, and cherrypicked to lend credence to your shameful inbuilt prejudice. I appreciate that this may sound harsh or will challenge you. But the truth cannot and should not be laid aside in favour of prejudice or a reading into scripture to justify all sorts of vile unChristian things that you have claimed here. Understood?

[@jeffandrew10]

Unbiased debates are so needed, but unfortunately, this was not a fair debate. Matthew received less time, and twice was not allowed to respond to Brown's comments. In addition, to avoid bias and to aid in the transparency of such important conversations, the moderator must have neutral views. She is conservative, and exercised her opinion during the debate, making it a two versus one situation. Unfair and uncomfortable to see. The moderator should also give each person equal time, and instead of changing topics, give each person time to respond and counter respond before moving forward. This is a difficult, delicate, and important subject and it should be treated as such. With both sides searching for truth alone, respecting each other's views and being humble. Personal egos and politics should step aside, so that God uses these opportunities to bring His Truth into the world. After all, this is not about the decrees of men. It is about the Word of God. We want to understand His message clearly and correctly. It would be a travesty to teach the wrong message, because it has hurt so many people. Many have committed suicide, or have been seriously depressed for many years.They have been opressed and rejected by many fellow Christians, many of them within their own families of origin. Consequently, many gay people have felt forced to be and live as who they are not. I wonder how many heterosexuals would be so accommodating. Never experiencing love by forced celibacy, or renouncing to their girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, husbands, family and even friends. What about if they were pushed to live a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender life against their true identity, while being rejected and oppressed for non compliance, all because of a possible fallible human interpretation of Scripture. Wouldn't you want to know the absolute truth, without bias? What the Christian GBLTIQ community is suffering at the hands of other Christians, is far from Christian, yet these conservative Christians have the audacity to question the GBLTIQ's Christian faith! Who is without sin? God knows each person's heart, no need to convince anyone. Now, if our cross as conservative Christians would want us to believe based on their interpretation of Scripture, is to forcibly renounce to live and coexist in this world, because they call it a "blessing," then try going back to the law, even becoming an ascetic, and see how that feels and how blessed you might feel. Asking someone to be forcibly celibate and not to have a family is a horrible life sentence. It is a huge and lonely cross to bear, lives unlived, until death. Celibacy doesn't only denies sex, but also family, companionship, romance, friendship, and the expression of deep love for one's spouse. Didn't God say, "I want mercy, not sacrifice?" Didn't He say, "My burden is light?" Didn't He say, "And your desire shall be for your husband?" What happened with that? Because it is not the experience of many female same sex couples. There has to be something we are missing. Didn't Jesus talk about eunuchs who are born so, from their mother's womb? Didn't He say, some cannot receive this saying? Didn't God say, "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make Him a helper FIT for him." Didn't Jesus speak about David, and how he broke the law, yet he did not die, nor his troops because God is after our hearts? Wasn't Jesus the only one who fulfilled the law, the rest of us, sinners? Aren't we all who believe in Christ, now set free from death from sin because of His sacrifice? Didn't He underscore the two most important commandments in the entire Bible? Love God over all things and love each other? Aren't we supposed to walk by faith, by what we cannot see? Weren't there divisions, arguments and different interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures in the time of Jesus? And what did Jesus say to the Saducees concerning the discussion about the resurrection? "And how do you understand it? " Weren't the Pharisees demanding too much from their people? Was Jesus happy with that? Weren't Peter and Paul debating concerning the inclusion of the Gentiles? As much as they knew the law, they weren't perfect. They lacked understanding, but God revealed His purpose in this matter to whom He wished on His time. God's plan is much bigger than our understanding. We ought to be careful not to judge others. Only God knows our heart and how much we love Him and others. God is truth. I believe that He is not a God that would want anyone to hide or fake who they truly are, or not to express who He made us to be. He is a God who commands us to love our neighbor AS ourselves. We then must accept who we are to the best of our ability. Next, if we were to sacrifice our lives to forced celibacy, to live loner lives with no families, (a living excruciating lifelong unhealthy experience, which doesn't sound theologically correct), then we better be darn sure about the information we are receiving and where is stemming from. In the end, God will deal with false teachers, and with people that have pushed the faithful astray. God help us! I think that if many GBLTIQ Christians have already sacrificed so much because of the demands that their families have placed on them, how much more some of them would sacrifice for the righteous God who they serve, love and worship. Pray for God's truth to be revealed, for strength to do His will, whatever that would be. In the meantime, let us walk by faith which God gives freely to those who ask, and pray, that God guides us in our personal journeys, and in the way we exercise our contribution to society.

[@crocsqueen1474]

This is absolutely beautiful. We should not think we fully understand God and the mysterious ways He works from a mere book. As Paul said, "love does no harm to its neighbors. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

[@michaelmirraministry8834]

Lev 18:23 also speaks against bestiality. Is that to be disregarded as well Matthew? Maybe if we could find a first century source describing a "loving" monogamous relationship between a man and his dog it would make it okay??

[@philochristos]

I am on Dr. Brown's side, but he is completely straw-manning Matthew Vines when he keeps reiterating the fact that Matthew's position entails that Jesus, who could see inside a person, and God, who inspired the scriptures, did not understand homosexual orientation. Vines corrected him on his misunderstanding, but Brown persisted in the misrepresentation (so did the host). What a disappointment to see somebody as intelligent and well-educated as Dr. Brown continue to misrepresent somebody's argument even after being corrected. After being corrected the second time, he ought to have asked for more clarification if he still wasn't getting it.

[@Leah97526]

Matthew was not "demeaned." Dr. Brown simply explained the Gospel to him.

[@GayChristianFellowship]

I'm a born again Christian who happens to be gay. I struggled with accepting myself for a long time. Years ago the guilt and shame caused me to abuse alcohol and to live a very promiscuous lifestyle. I started experimenting with drugs and I remember just wanting to die. One day I met a pastor who taught me that God loves me for who I am. I made a surrender to the Lord and my life has forever been changed! Today I attend a gay affirming church and I fully support gay relationships and marriages. It doesn't matter what anyone says I know in my heart and in my spirit that I am a child of God. Nobody can ever seperate me from my relationship with Jesus Christ.

[@savethehoneybees2001]

Victoria David, please tell me WHY.

[@llunde22]

Gay Christian True, you are a child of God and nothing can separate you from Jesus Christ unless you willing do so (we have the free will to walk away). But not acknowledging that homosexuality is a sin (just like other sexual immorality sins) is not Christ. People find this hard to believe, but your desire doesn't define you, Jesus does. Nothing is impossible for Him...absolutely nothing. He work with you so you don't have that desire...and he can do it in a way where don't have crush your own body to do so. It's a tragedy that some Christians go at gays like they're the worst thing on the earth, but it's as equally wrong to have the gospels fit our desires. Your pastor was half right, He loves you no matter what you go through, but His desire is for you to be free from sin...not to continually live in it and accept as "who you are inherently". You are a son of the living God.

[@GayChristianFellowship]

Levi If I'm a child of God nothing can seperate me from the Lord. The Bible says we become a new creation in Christ. The old self is dying away and the new self is growing everyday in the Lord. Through this new creation we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. I don't agree with your views on gay people but I want to encourage you to understand that the Bible shows us that we cannot earn God's grace. And that through faith we become God's children. This seal of ownership is not broken. If God calls you a child of God then you are a child of God period. His will shall be done for His glory. Grace is not of ourselves but a gift that God has given us.

[@llunde22]

I agree with everything you said, but the grace is there to free us of sin, as I said nothing can keep you from the love of God. We all sin, and Christ made it possible for us to be free from it...but if you don't call homosexuality a sin then you'll never as close to God as you were called to be. Hebrews 10:26-31 tells of the affront to Jesus it is to continue with sinning...we all are sinners but there's a difference between those who willing repent and those that willingly don't . I wish for nobody to be in the the latter, i want everyone to have a spottless robe.

[@bossmanham]

Gay Christian You shouldn't accept yourself. You should accept Christ and let Him change you.

[@rowan9648]

Okay, so I know a lot of you are slamming Matthew Vines, stating that Michael Brown beat the crap out of him in the debate, and are on Brown's side. I just want to say that I, too, think Matthew did quite poorly in the debate, but I am still on the side of gay Christianity. It is possible to take this stance without being self centered as there are plenty of straight Christians that do. There was a LOT of ground that wasn't covered.

[@tracys4161]

Matthew Vines' book is an example of the warning Paul gave in the New Testament: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Timothy 2:4). Let's pray for Matthew Vines; he's a gifted speaker and writer, and God can empower and use him for His glory.

[@KenAmmi-Shalom]

Has anyone noticed the timeline? As is very common in such cases, Matthew realized that the Bible approves of homosexuality right around the very same time that he chose that lifestyle for himself-coincidence?

[@reggieroon]

Maybe he spent years researching there issue before making a well informed but still life changing decision, like most gay christians do.

[@KenAmmi-Shalom]

@@reggieroon I would love to see the statistical study to which you are appealing. But what if "Maybe he spent years researching there issue before making a well informed but still life changing decision"?

[@BBrown2563]

To me this was a poor debate. They should have set time limits on the amount of time they were allowed to speak so there wasn't a majority of speaking by one person.

[@christiansolder1114]

I am a repentant Ex-Homosexual. GOD saved me from the reprobate mind and filled me with the Holy Spirit. Once I was saved I lost all desires for homosexuality. The only relationship I desire is the one that comes from accepting the blood of Christ and living my life by the bible; as the definitive and final word of GOD.

[@tomhertz1614]

AMEN brother!! Beautifully said. Once you receive the Holy spirit it is constantly teaching and we are no longer a slave to sin. God keeps us from temptation. See you in Heaven brother . End times are very close.

[@tomhertz1614]

***** Actually for an Eternity in Heaven.

[@baslersa]

Amen to that. To be honest, I have come by many more ex-homosexuals than I have people who claim to be christian and gay at the same time. It proves the weekness of the argument trying to be presented here.

[@tomhertz1614]

***** God told me about Heaven. That's what happen when you are born again with the Holy spirit. Dead to sin.

[@tomhertz1614]

limitattitude You dont know what you are talking about. You can read the bible but you will never be able to interpret it correctly because you are not saved and filled with the Holy spirit. Get saved and learn the truth and get back to me. God bless

[@thandosiyabonga-lembede5299]

The devil is trying so hard to make us comfortable with sin

[@christyler6234]

Amen!

[@jasonm8362]

You believe in goblins???

[@MrKlausmagic]

Absolutely!

[@jasonm8362]

What evidence do you have that goblins exist?

[@jasonm8362]

***** Do you have evidence that your god exists?

[@JustineTeeVee]

Matthew sadly hasn't made Christ his LORD. All of his arguments are just him trying to justify his ways. Dr. Brown always went straight to the Word and answered his questions more than perfectly it's just Matthew is more speaking under the spirit of homosexuality and mixing it with his feelings. Sorry Matthew, I'm a young woman of God who struggles with the spirit as well but I go by what the Word says and not how I feel and I can care less about how the world today allows what wasn't allowed back then. The point is the Word clearly says it's WRONG. And if you just pick and choose & twist the bible to just justify yourself then you're allowing the spirit of witchcraft now to influence your life. Make Christ your LORD & surrender & don't let your attractions DEFINE who you are in Christ.

[@Leah97526]

Beautifully stated, Jay!

[@KingdomWithinU]

totaltranquility Your still going at it with No scriptural evidence ? You boast empty claims about the Word of God, You slander people, you continually use foul language towards others and name calling to try to shout people down. But you still have not refuted anything I said in our previous conversation. All you do is Blast individuals. You have no foundation to stand on. You simply hate people that don't agree with you. How about you TRY JESUS and learn factual eisegesis instead of spewing hate and lies about Jesus and the Word of God.

[@totaltranquility]

Fruit of the Vine Messianic You just keep on stating things that are untrue, or that you can't prove. If I stated something slanderous about you, prove what I stated not to be true. Until you can do that, my comments about you are still accurate. If you don't like the language used towards you, perhaps it is you that is the problem. There was nothing "foul in the language I used towards you, and I blasted no one. You also continually deny the fact that the Scriptures do not back up what you claim. Paul's condemnation was clearly towards the idolatry, not the acts. Your attempt to divert away from Paul’s emphasis, (Why God gave them over) and focus on other things is where you lose. Then you attempt to prove that Paul was referring to what we all know of as same gender sex under any circumstances and for all people, but there is no proof of that. Homosexual sex acts were forbidden in Paul’s religion due to many ignorant and selfish reasons, which bleed into Christianity. However, there is nothing concrete that proves that he is clearly referring to any and all homosexual sex acts for all reasons in anything we have from him. It has even been debated as to whether or not Paul even wrote them. You can attempt to remove the idolatry from the act, but you will continue to fail. Like I stated to you before, provide proof of some part of the Scriptures where it clearly states that what we all know of as homosexual lovemaking is listed as a sin, when there is no idolatry involved. When you continue to rehash the same rhetoric and eisegesis taught/fed to, you are only providing proof of your cult mentality. If you find that insulting, you should try and change it.

[@1norville]

***** Do not be so self righteous as to think if you were in Mathew's shoes you would be so quick to seek a wife. If the tables were turned, how quick would you be to run to a dude for love? You will never know until that is you. Regardless of what the bible says about homosexuality, you do not know ALL of Mathew, God does. Therefor, Mathew just may fare better than you on judgement day.

[@CalebSuko]

Michael, thanks for holding forth the Biblical position with grace and truth!

[@lisalee7108]

Yes. Thank you.

[@Julkijussi]

Mr Brown seems to be full of prejudices. He doesn't listen, he doesn't answer to questions and doesn't seem to be prepared for this interview. Especially he would have been qualified enough to bring facts to the discussion. He missed.

[@fitnessguru8012]

If quoting from exactly what God has stated in His word is to be full of prejudices, then God has prejudice against ALL sin.

[@Leon9000130]

Mathew Vines use of having no textual proof of negativity about long term gay relationships is fallacy argument. The same argument could be used with children and animals. Simply adding a long term committed intent does not make them morally acceptable. I would ask Mathew how he would feel if a pedophile used his argument to justify their behavior as many pedophiles do. They claim it is OK if it is a kind loving relationship. Since there no text that condemns it as long as its loving do we accept it? I would hope the vast majority of us would say no but sadly I believe it is where our morally liberal society is headed.

[@Leon9000130]

***** Let me ask you if you believe there is no God!

[@broncosgjn]

If a person accepts Jesus as Lord and receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit then they are saved regardless of their sexual orientation. How can we reject what God has accepted. Nobody has to stop sinning to receive Jesus as lord and Saviour otherwise I would be doomed and so would you. Only one was perfect. One man Jesus. Sin is erased by the blood of Christ to all who will believe. The unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is not being gay. Jesus was very specific about rating sins as big or small. He said "If you have broken the least of all the laws then you have broken them ALL. So if being gay is unforgivable then we are ALL guilty of it and doomed. Christianity is simple. Don't make it hard for yourself and try to be a lawyer. God hates people trying to lawyer Him.

[@mdja2262]

All Men have fallen short and have sinned. It is only by His Grace through Jesus Christ that we are saved. The message is clear: accept Jesus Christ and acknowledge what He has done on the cross for all of us and God's promise is eternal life with Him.

[@broncosgjn]

Mark Daryl Jay Atienza Too true sir. I am straight but I do have a dog in this fight. If Gays can't be christians then my sexual (straight) behaviour has been enough to exclude me too. I have been an adulterer. Galatians is very clear, The law has no power to condemn and sin has no power over us who believe and are led by the Spirit. I really believe that if a person choses homosexual sex because they are out for a "different " experience now and again they are in the same category as a straight adulterer. However when a person is born with that inclination then it is a product of who they are. That does not mean they can get into gay orgies or something or have random gay sex because that would be adultery and sin and they must try to desist before that sin leads them away from Christ. Just as a straight person who has multiple adulterous relationships must try to stop this through the Holy Spirit's help. It will n ot exclude you from heaven but it hurts your mission and witness. So a gay couple living in a loyal permanent relationship will not be excluded from God' grace. It can not. "For I am firmly convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor demons no any other created thing can separate me from the love of God that is ours in Christ Jesus." We don't put these strictures on gossips and liars and thieves or straight adulterers so why do it to gays even those who are in monogamous relationships? The Law did not fail, it was never intended to save and it did not and it can not. It simply points to the necessity of God with us to save us. Jesus saves and the evidence is the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fruit derived. We can not condemn those whom God has saved, sanctified and declared holy. "For he believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness."

[@mdja2262]

+Grahame Nicholson This is very elaborate of what has to be said, sir. That is why it becomes sad that people have to debate on this and complicate things, which sometimes might lead to confused believers. Thank you for your valuable comments.

[@nancygorman]

The Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth... Be filled with the Holy Spirit and you will know truth.

[@lauriehiggins9058]

Vines seems wedded to the common Leftist idea that the cultural context in which the biblical writers were immersed was a patriarchal milieu in which people viewed women as socially inferior. Therefore, men were not to assume the sexual role of a woman. Prohibition of homoerotic unions was, in the Leftist, heterodox, a-historical view, merely a means to reinforce patriarchal chauvinism. Vines believes that biblical writers would have no understanding of or opposition to homoerotic unions between two men of equal social status. And Vines seems to rely more on non-biblical texts for justification of homoerotic unions than on biblical texts. If, as Vines conceded, both the OT and NT condemn homoerotic activity, why would God then sanction a type of relationship to which homoerotic activity is central? If Vines were asked for his biblical justification for the claim that God does not condemn homoerotic relationships between two committed men of equal status, what would he say? I guess he would say that the Bible is silent on this topic, but, let's remember that arguments from silence are bad arguments. When Vines talks about historical context and asserts that the Bible was not condemning committed relationships between equals because such relationships didn't exist, what does he make of Ecclesiastes 1: 9: "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Julie Roys made this point when she referenced the biblical writers' understanding of anthropology, and Dr. Brown made the same point when he talked about God's omniscience, which would, of course, include an understanding of man's nature, including the possibility of committed homoerotic relationships. When Vines argues that the prohibition of homoerotic activity in Leviticus is no longer applicable to Christians, does he believe then that the other prohibitions found in the same passages are similarly no longer applicable? Are Christians now permitted to engage in bestiality and incest? Other than Vines' desire--which is a point Dr. Brown made several times--what could account for Vines’ certitude that the biblical injunction against homoerotic activity does not include homoerotic activity between two people of equal social status? Imagine if Christians who experience same-sex attraction put as much effort into resisting sinful impulses and struggling to heed the difficult call to celibacy that they do into concocting a strained exegesis and into compelling all of the world to affirm their particular sin predisposition as righteousness. When Jesus says, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me,” he doesn’t say, “except for those who experience same-sex attraction.” Sometimes in God’s call to Christians to bear our crosses and to die to ourselves daily, he’s asking us to do things that are onerous and undesirable to minds and hearts not fully sanctified.

[@YophiSmith]

Laurie Higgins You are WORDY Miss Higgins... ...I love it!

[@lauriehiggins9058]

@@YophiSmith Lol. "Wordy" means using TOO MANY words. Did I? #NervousEmoji

[@micahgrace7057]

My exact thoughts towards the matter, I thought I was the only one who came to realize that there was something clearly wrong with what Matthew was saying. The bestiality and incest part was my case of asking what did he mean by the Leviticus Law no longer being applicable to Christians then quoted.

[@fitnessguru8012]

Well thought and written. This guy is fighting against God's authority...period.

[@mntryjoseph1961]

If being gay is a choice, then "when did you choose to be straight?"

[@Colakat22]

Head spinning.

[@richardvictorian901]

Dr. Brown is thorough in breaking down the bible and homosexuality. It's difficult and I'll say impossible to argue anything that contradicts.

[@stevencjanssen]

Celibacy in the Bible is considered a "gift" NOT a life sentence.

[@StephenGibney]

excellent.

[@jon66097]

According to Jesus, some are born eunuchs. Is God being unfair to them and giving them life sentences?

[@stevencjanssen]

born a eunuch and born gay are not the same, being born "unable" to have sex is much diferent that being born able and PEOPLE telling you that you cannot

[@jon66097]

According to the bible sex can only take place between a man and a woman as only the two can become one flesh. If you want to argue that the one flesh can be between a man and a man read the very verse before it where it says a man and a woman and 1 Corinthians 6:16 and see how Paul interprets as physical oneness. God bless :)

[@scottneal4300]

Hmm Oneness is also used when discussing God the Father and Jesus the Son. Also it sure looks like God doesn't disapprove of King Solomon's polygamy. He just has a tiff when King Solomon starts taking wives from Idolatrous nations.

[@puertoricanboy2008]

What I hate is when someone claims to be gay and that they prayed the gay away and that they are still having gay feelings and then someone comes up and says "oh you just didn't try hard enough or you weren't praying hard enough or you just don't want to change." Really? Are we playing the guessing game now? How do you know this person did not pray or try hard enough? How do you know that they just don't want to change? How do you know those things? Well the truth is you don't. You were not there to watch this person as they prayed to determine how hard they did or did not pray and nor was I there. You are not god and nor am I. The only person who knows the true heart of a person is god himself and that person. When you die just as when I die the only person I expect to see standing before me is god with Jesus by his side. I don't expect to see you there I don't expect to see my friends there or anyone else for that matter. Only god will judge me on that day and determine where I go just as he will do the same for you and for gay people and for everyone else in this world. I don't care if gay people do or don't get married. So long as it doesn't affect my personal life or stop me from doing everyday things I will not stand in your way. Let god decide your fate based on how you have lived your life and what is in your heart.

[@ricecake1324]

she didn't even let Matthew speak and Dr. Brown was avoiding to answer his questions. Dr.Brown's point was because the bible said this and this homosexually is wrong but Matthew's point was homosexuality is wrong at the time. Times have changed and the bible's interpretation changed as well like how we see black people as people and not animals. That's why people didn't let black people marry with white people. Like honestly I think Dr.Brown couldn't relate to how it is not a choice to love someone and if we do love the person of the same sex we should not act on it and be celibate. like seriously dude can you be celibate, its human nature to interact with one another. Dr.Brown was relating to the past more than the present and not connecting the past with the present which made his argument pointless.

[@joetech3348]

There's nothing new about Dr. Brown's arguments, but yet again, there's nothing new about Matthew Vines's arguments.

[@InternetPilgrim]

The problem with the whole debate is that the focus is wrong. It's on HIS desires and HIS FEELINGS of being forced to deny himself. But denying ourselves is the essence of Christian discipleship; we deny ourselves many things in order to gain Christ, because closeness to Him is worth infinitely more than anything our flesh craves. By focusing on his desires rather than on Christ, Vine misses the point. If we love Him, we obey Him. Otherwise we've put Him second in our affections. It's no different than fornication. That burning desire is there for many straight people but God doesn't say they can indulge if they're committed to one another. If they cannot marry for some reason, celibacy is the other option. Period, because we should be more committed to Christ than to our desires. If we're not, we need to seek him for the grace to become that committed, gay or straight.. It doesn't matter whether God changes his sexuality or not (though he isn't seeking God for that so it's unlikely it will happen spontaneously). One homosexual act doesn't condemn anyone to hell, any more than fornication does. A pattern of several incidents doesn't condemn either group, PROVIDED they are repentant and struggling to overcome their flesh. Of course the church should forgive & accept. But he's speaking of deliberate, continuous sin without repentance, and a demand that the Church condone behavior which God condemns. That's very different. It's wrong, gay or straight. He's arguing for a lesser standard because he's gay. That's ridiculous, and but for political correctness, it would be obvious to all

[@MLuvsJ]

They keep changing everything Matthew said and not actually listening to him. He never once said that the bible script writers were wrong, just that we now are taking the words out of context. Also Matthew seemed to be the only prepared one since Michael kept repeating the same thing.

[@juliegoldsmith5257]

+M Prudent The issue is that Matthew makes his statements based upon his own wants and desires. He interpreted Scripture based upon those desires. His struggles in the area show that he knew it was wrong, however, his "journey" in understanding the Scriptures had him coming out with a new interpretation which is not a coincidence that agreed with those desires. Regardless about lifelong celibacy, Brown is correct when he proceeded to use Scripture at every turn. Christ did say to deny yourself and follow Him. Vines is not doing that. The only thing Vines is prepared on is voicing what "feels right" to him. The Scriptures do in fact condemn the practice of homosexuality.

[@MLuvsJ]

+Julie Goldsmith I don't agree because I actually watched him speak in a video where he goes into more detail and he did actual research. He wasn't biased in any way to me. I think Michael is the bias one in this "debate".

[@juliegoldsmith5257]

Whether or not you "think" he was biased, listen to the context of his wording on all things and he in fact does interpret the Scriptures based upon his desires. The Scriptures when researching the Greek, Hebrew, and early church history dating back to the time of the apostles, practicing homosexuality is condemned. Brown blew his biased beliefs out of the water based upon actual theology, context, history of the church and the Scriptures. No my friend. Brown wasn't biased. He actually bases his beliefs on the Scriptures which are biased against the practice of homosexuality. You are free to "think" what you want, but it is clear that you do not know very much on the subject and will believe what the world pushes. Have a nice day.

[@MLuvsJ]

+Julie Goldsmith I don't believe what the world pushes, I listen to both points and make a conclusion of my own. As a Christian I used to believe that homosexuality was a sin too but when you think about it I really don't understand why out of all the rules and regulations in the Old Testament, that we don't follow this day and age, we still throw around the same scriptures that are condemning homosexuality around. Also in the New Testament where it does seem like it is condemned, for example in Romans when Paul wrote that letter, you can find people, who have more credibility than Matthew, making the same claims that it is not condemning gay people.

[@juliegoldsmith5257]

Right where you say " I really don't understand why out of all the rules and regulations in the Old Testament, that we don't follow this day and age, we still throw around the same scriptures that are condemning homosexuality around," shows that you do know the Scriptures condemn such behavior, but, use what you understand as your way of interpreting the Scriptures. That is eisegesis and is not the proper approach to Biblical hermeneutics. When taking the context (which is imperative) to decipher what the Scriptures teach, the Scriptures are plain in their teaching. Paul himself speaks who marriage was between and who sex was to be between. This "committed romantic"argument is bogus since any sex outside of marriage was condemned in Scripture. Marriage was created by God in the garden as the foreshadow of Christ and His bride/church Eph 5:23-33, Rev 19:7-8,Rev 21:9. He is returning for His bride, not a husband. The creation of Eve was a foreshadow of the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts. In the garden, he breathed the breath of life (in the Hebrew the word meaning soul and spirit) into the man and then took the rib out of him and made Eve. On Pentecost, there was a mighty rushing wind that filled the house (which was the Holy Spirit which the Greek wording meaning the same as the Hebrew) and created the church. God took part of Himself, which was His Spirit like He took the rib, and created His church/bride like He created Adam's bride. Paul also says that woman was the one created for man. This new argument does not hold weight to the affirmed position of Scripture. Matthew Vines or any other person is not our authority. According to your position, you decipher the Scriptures based upon "what makes sense to you" and also from your last statement in your posting men's opinions. That is a major problem with many people professing to be Christians. They are carried about like children with every wind of doctrine. Vines lost the debate due to no Scriptural support while Brown presented his case by using the Scriptures. The Scriptures are what we as Christians are to start and end with, not Matthew Vines. Have a nice day.

[@TheRonnierate]

Dr. Brown always spoke in generalizations fully supported by the moderator who seemed committed to state her position with Moody. This was not a debate. Equal time was never offered to Mr Vines.

[@helenthomas6716]

Matthew Vines called homosexuality 'behavior' at approx. 28:09. That being the case, behavior can be changed by a changed mind. GOD does not force anyone to change, because HE has given us free will.

[@helenthomas6716]

Ifihada Hammer As a man/woman thinks, so they are. If you lust in your heart, it is the same as committing the act. JESUS says that. So, Mr. Hammer, orienting oneself to sin is as committing the sin itself.

[@helenthomas6716]

Ifihada Hammer Prove that what I have said is stupid or uninformed.

[@jasonm8362]

Helen Thomas Temptation is sin? Well I guess since Jesus was tempted for 40 days and nights, he was the biggest sinner of all time, if your BS is correct, right Helen? By the way, I thought you were done arguing??

[@jasonm8362]

John barfneck Perhaps you were too ignorant to sense my sarcasm? It's ok... You will learn like the rest of them.;)

[@mernestsmith7156]

Jason M Moron, temptation isn't sin...the ACT is sin.

[@heydude7568]

i attended an lgbt church service to find out for myself the spirit present. the people were lovely and treated me with more warmth than a lot of other churches i have visited in my 27 years as a christian. but despite the warmth and despite the friendliness, all worship songs focusing on sin had been removed from the song book, they changed the Lord's Prayer so as to NOT say out loud forgive us our trespasses. my conclusion from the night was a meeting of lovely people made in God's image but a meeting devoid of the Holy Spirit and a meeting intentionally devoid of any kind of personal accountability before God. there was much more i could write but i think this says enough

[@teethingtroubles8031]

@hey! dude! Gay churches are outlawed in my country so thank you for sharing your experience attending a gay church. Jude 18-19 sum up my thoughts about them.

[@theazure4171]

@@teethingtroubles8031 What country you live in?? Im moving there.

[@BenDonahower]

Would have been great if this debate was 5x as long. Very interesting.

[@scottm1775]

I’m gay. I’m a Christian. I can’t change being gay. I have no idea how it happened. I’ve been this way as long as I can remember. So, I’m trying to be celibate. It’s so difficult to deny something so powerful. But I love Jesus more so I keep trying.

[@warrenpaine]

You are trying pray away something that God created. God doesn't answer those prayers.

[@CyborgNinja7]

May God strengthen the both of us to follow Him.

[@Potamotrygorgeous]

Wow, that is awesome! Absolutely very admirable. Hey.. Jesus was celibate too, so you got a great and perfect and powerful leading role model to follow. I believe that having sex is not the holy grail in life. Some people are eunichs for the Kingdom of God. If we read that in heaven we're not given in marriage, it leaves me to think we won't have sex in heaven (any more). God probably has something way better for us, seeing Him fully for all that He is. I pray that our Heavenly Father will strengthen you and affirm you in your path to follow Him. God bless!

[@Topg1]

You are on the right track. Be encouraged. Whether heterosexual/lgbtq+, God called us to die to ourselves. Your desire might not go away, I thank you that you understand that what God has is greater.

[@ryandawson2877]

That’s awesome. It would be the same way for heterosexual Christians who are not married.

[@johnmohr7750]

How do we know that it's the teachers of the teachings are wrong, not the orignal teachers themselves. Dear lord, Michael is not following Mathew's argument at all.

[@jalee20]

This debate was incredibly disappointing. Matthew Vines had significantly less time to talk, had his mic cut off in the beginning, and was often interrupted. Not to mention, how Dr. Brown kept putting words in his mouth. I would have like to see both parties have more time to site their sources. Just because one is louder and repeats their position repeatedly doesn't mean they are right.

[@faith1614]

Well Brown was quoting scripture and God was crystal clear. God’s way and HIS way alone. The path is narrow to follow. Make your choice. The bible shows us how narrow the path is time and time again with noah and the flood (few were saved). Sodom and gomorrah (few were saved). Even with moses and the israelites (none that fled Egypt made it to the promise land, their generations died in the wilderness as a consequence of choosing the wide path). Its narrow for a reason. People need trust in God and love God and pray and believe in him.

[@TheCerealluvr]

To me it feels like Brown continually writes off what Vines is saying. I believe that he has wept over it. However, to me, it also seems that he is pretty hostile to more than one possibility (of course, that's sort of the point of a debate). It's not his differing opinion on the Truth that bothers me, but the lack of humility I hear in his tone. I pray that God reveal to us with utter confidence how we should read scripture and respond- in reverence to God, but in doing so, with an open mind. Perhaps God has a greater idea of sexual love than we've ever understood before.. or perhaps not, not at all.

[@tsunamirider1013]

***** Awwww....do you sense hostility?...or do you sense steadfastness? WE Christians will not waiver when it comes to sin and God. CHOOSE!!!!....lead a sinful life by choice, reject Him; and you DENY God. Lead a sinless life, as best as possible, by choice, and you ACCEPT God. Which side of the line are YOU on. It has now been drawn. You can't stand ON the line either. Play the middle ground and you will be spit out...like lukewarm water. Walk in the middle of the road, sooner or later you will get run over. As for YOU ATHEISTS: Take heed!!!! You who reject God based on YOUR shallow, humanistic perception of reality and your narrow mindedness of things unexplained. You fear uncertainty. You cower from the unknown. Your pride causes you to stumble and fall. Your ego tells you you haven't fallen. You lie face down in the dust of science and perception and feel just fine. But it is that same dust you breath, that false sense of security of knowledge that causes you to choke Yet you lack the ability to get up. You haven't fallen as far as you're concerned.

[@tsunamirider1013]

***** Wow...you nailed it!! You psycho crap revealed all....that's amazing!!!

[@tsunamirider1013]

***** No...TY for your marvelous insight into the dark reaches of the psyche. Your profound pseudo knowledge of Freudian repression was astounding to say the least. When I find time to agree with your brilliant insight...I will get back to you.

[@TheCerealluvr]

***** hostility. not listening. Steadfastness is different. I heard him LISTEN very little. He didn't seem patient.

[@tsunamirider1013]

***** Are you sure about that?...Or are you Biblically ignorant? My guess is the latter.

[@Tec1978]

To Matthew Vines I would say, sometimes it is necessary to stay celibate. I am now 35 years old. I did have some men in my live, but i always made it clear i wanted to wait with sex till I was married. They all came with reasons why that was not necessary, including its an old and outdated rule in the bible. But I stayed strong and did not budge. Because for me it is and was clear on what the bible told me. Do I want to stay alone my whole life...no, but when God asks this of me I will. I have been single now for 15 years and I feel happy en content. Don't let your own desires take over or distort what is clearly written in the bible. It is not our will be done, but His will be done. God Bless

[@drj1967]

Matthew Vines is saying that there is not biblical prohibition or bible verses against lasting and committed examples of homosexuality and all of the bible verses against homosexuality are referenced by non-committed relationships. And because of this, God did not see or foresee how great, loving, sincere, and long-lasting gay relationships are when the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the bible to pen His Words. Dr. Michael Brown called it all a myth liked unto Big Foot. God is clear about sexual sins including the sin of homosexuality. Matthew Vines is lost in sin. Keep Matthew in prayer that God would remove the scales from his eyes and heart.

[@andrewsapia]

Mathew continuously demands ancients texts to refute what most people in the ancient world could hardly bother refuting and we have very few ancient texts on any topic. It is absurd for him to conclude that because no ancient text condemns equal gay relationships that therefore it is ok.

[@leeduon8012]

+andrew sapia You have correctly named what is silly about relying on ancient texts to dictate one's morality.

[@ericstephens9824]

Fighting against gay people has not brought ONE soul to Jesus. All it does is push them away. Go ahead, you deniers, we'll all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be rewarded for what we've done. Did we draw people to Him and share His love or did we push people away because we failed to believe that perhaps, as with slavery and subjugation of women, we may have gotten it wrong. "IF you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture to 'love your neighbor as yourself', you do well." James 2:8. Condemning people to hell for something that is NOT a choice is not very loving. By your fruit you will know them.

[@TommyStahr]

Jesus said, "In EVERYTHING, do unto others as you'd have done to yourself. THIS sums up the law..." Matthew 7:12 and Paul said in Romans 13:10, "Love does no harm to its neighbor, therefore, LOVE FULFILLS GODS LAW". Being gay doesn't break either of these definitions of Gods desire for our lives. God doesn't change, but, the world sure has, in many ways, and if you want to be a true Christian, forbidding gays for who they are, or denying them full equal rights, is the real sin.

[@Moochi19]

Umm...denying ones full equal rights? So I guess people should give molesters equal rights considering the New Testament doesnt speak against child molestation huh? You say God doesnt change, personally I dont think you know him. You contradict who God is because he speaks against homosexuality throughout scripture. You are not spiritually sound and like other church goers you prefer to go to a church that will make you feel good about your lifestyle. Your aim is not pleasing God but your own desires. I know a Christian by their fruits. There is a different essence about a true believer. If your going to church to hear feel good gospels then your not spiritually inclined to the word at all.

[@Living_Proof777]

tom stephens Please read and study the Bible. Accepting sin and saying its ok is a sin, any Christian who is accepting and endorsing of homosexuality is guilty of being a homosexual. Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

[@Moochi19]

***** Your time is up! There no point of refuting something because your opinion proved my point. What did you debunk, all you did was prove my point! Lol..smh..nice try. Your right, it doesn't make it right or good, but through evil God makes good out of it. Slavery is sad, however, it united people by cultures, languages and backgrounds. Every race in the world has been enslaved, if it didnt happen then I would not have been born in North America or have certain privileges. Not mention slavery has been through out the bible and is still happening. May I ask, why do homosexual's love to make their claim about love by using verses that SPECIFICALLY NOT TALKING ABOUT SEXUAL LOVE. The law is fulfilled by agape love, love that is never ending, if one has love for their brother or sister, wife or husband not in sexual passion love, it means to have the love of God. Last time I checked I don't have a sexual relationship with God, I have experience agape love. God made different kinds of love that humans can have with one another, love of a child, wife and husband, family, friends etc. The love that is mentioned is a love of respect to the person you are with or a person you have friendship with to not commit adultery or covet against them. Also I never said that homosexuals don't know love, so your anger is senseless! Your right, I couldn't find evidence of you saying I wasn't a Christian and I'll apologize for that, I was not paying attention to your comment well so I will apologize for that, however, an misreading a comment does not make someone a liar and no, I specifically used the verses because they are true in my life and is true in an actual born-again Christian's life. The things that God does to change a person should be very evident. It wasn't meant to argue against homosexual marriage, you should of used common sense here but throughout this discussion you prove you have none. Also Romans 1:26 does not condone homosexuality as a natural behavior in accordance to the natural order of life. Male and female which were created so that procreation can be made because God told them to be fruitful and multiply. A penis in someone's fart box can not be fruitfully multiply. Never have and never will. t really is fairly simple. I was trying to spare you some embarrassment, but clearly, you could care less how foolish you look. Good for you! And trust me, I WILL "BRING IT"! ;) The thing is, you can argue what is written in the bible as much as an Atheist will to disprove God, because your not far from their claims to the word. Its written there and because you refuse to see it in God's word but want to listen to man, that's your choice. Your embarrassing yourself. Doesn't take much for you with your rants of pure nonsense and empty filled arguments. Lol, the fact that you waste so much energy with trying to "have my ass handed by a homosexual" is the most hilarious thing. For one, how is any of your argument valid when you can't show me anything that accepts the practice of two same sex being together as something right in God's eyes, not to mention the fact that your already proving my argument on why something that is not normal to the world or I should say was not normal is now being legalized. Homosexuals was never a normal thing because it wouldn't of took this long for it to be legal to begin with. Polygamy is legal in 25% of countries in the world, specifically in some Middle Eastern and some countries in Africa. Even in Australia. How they deal with custody, I wouldn't know but its nothing new and I have not heard any issue about one's will. Not to mention that a biblical person who is King Soloman had many wives and concubines. Did this mean it was ok, no because he was not committed nor were they followers of the same God. Gay people marrying changes the laws within churches and if a pastor refuses to marry a gay couple they lose their license, jail time and fines. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/20/idaho-citys-ordinance-tells-pastors-to-marry-gays-/ Laws are changing, soon transgender if not already will have the right to use the bathroom accordance to their "identity." So yea, it affects people greatly because not everyone feels comfortable with the idea of the opposite sex who is dressed like a man or woman sharing the same bathroom. Umm... no I didn't I specifically said that homosexuality is a sexual preference like pedophilia and bestiality. However; now that you mentioned that, it actually can. Not so much marriages but there are many homosexual pedophiles so I don't know what your talking about. There are also many heterosexual pedophilia but my claim was there are small groups seeking rights. So I don't know what your talking about. This website speaks for its self and more out there: www.lifesitenews.com/news/pedophile-support-group-seeks-truth-and-dignity-want-same-rights-as-homosex WTH?! Okay, you lost me here. KKK? What does the KKK have to do with our argument. KKK's did not make the law, God did in his commandments. In his commandments and I mean in the ten commandments he mentions nothing about homosexual marriage or relationships..hmm... I wonder why? Because it was about a man and a woman. The ten commandments where marriages were mentioned were exclusively for those in wife and husband relationships. Have you ever wondered why God gave a man a penis and a woman a vagina? Because they go perfectly together. A woman's vagina was made for things to go in it and come out of it, a penis was made for it to go in things and for things to come out of it. An ass was made for things to come out of it. Why stick a penis in the filthiest part of your body. Where you dispose from??? Not to mention the stories I've been told about men going in the hospital because the hole in their butts can't close because they stick animals, yes animals, vibrators, etc. up there and then the hole becomes too wide that the butt can't close anymore. These men have to wear diapers for the rest of their lives. Ewww! That's really disgusting! The woman's vagina can close by exercise or surgery. You rip the asshole and it can't be repaired. Its called a fart box for a reason. Never said that it was gay marriages fault, you clearly have not read my argument. I SAID THAT THESE THINGS WILL BE/ ARE PROTESTED and if homosexuals have their rights in marriage then before you know it, these people will too. Its just a matter of time, I've already showed a link that shows that pedophiles want the same rights. Welcome to the real world: “I just love my Mac so much, I can’t wait till we can finally get back to the honeymoon sweet in Montana where bestiality is legal. Gosh, get with the times California! We can marry here just fine, but love making is a big no-no,” said Horner. “People keep asking me why I wanted to marry a dog. I told them I just want the same god given rights that every person in California is allowed to have. Don’t tell me I can’t marry my dog. I don’t tell you that you can’t marry a 500 lb woman with gas issues. That’s your decision. Don’t tread on me. I love my dog and I know he loves me a hundred times more than any gay wedding out there.” lindaikeji.blogspot.ca/2014/01/wth-california-allows-first-ever-state.html Should I go on? I pointed out child molesters because just like homosexuality it is an unnatural desire. You already don't agree with it because you don't think its natural well nor is a sticking up objects in your fart box constantly. Also here is a comment from a pedophile on the very website I provided: "Edwards is actually a rarity among pedophiles, in that he managed to suppress his desires until he was middle-aged. Most pedophiles become aware of their urges at puberty or by the time they are young adults; many will describe their desires as romantic, not just sexual." “I am in my late 20s and have been dealing with unwanted attraction to young boys since I was a teenager,” writes one member. “Though I have never acted on these attractions with anyone, this is my primary sexual attraction, and it bothers me greatly. I have considered suicide many times.” www.thestar.com/news/insight/2013/12/22/is_pedophilia_a_sexual_orientation.html Sad but its not to long before this becomes legal. Do you wanna try again? Welcome to the real world. Its the one you love so much, soon you and every like minded will grow numb to this being a reality. As for incest, look, I think it's gross too, but this is America and as long as they are not hurting anyone, it's really none of my business. I think to 90 year olds having sex is gross too. The difference between you and I is that I'm not saying that they do not have a right to do it. Furthermore, how does a mom marrying her son effect your life one iota? Oh! Too late! My point proven. Incest not hurting anyone, it hurts the children being born in that kind of filthy relationship. Many get teased and these things can result to suicide and drugs. This is also biblical that incest is wrong. Leviticus 18:6-18. A Christian would never say what you jut said, but a professing one like yourself would and I am not surprised. I never said anything about it affecting my life, matter fact maybe by some chance it could if the person who I had sex with carried a disease or infection and had not revealed the truth about his past. I'm just say, it happens. Many men on the DL which results some woman with sexual transmitted diseases. But of course this could happen with both homosexual and heterosexual relations..duh! Well if it were natural to a gay man then he wouldn't be gay now would he? I love the fact that you said I can't give up what I never had in the first place. So what, you know me now? With in the couple of days we've spoken you know so much about me. If that were the case I would have no need to comment and share my testimony on this page now would I? The problem is that Jesus said to FORSAKE ALL AND FOLLOW HIM WITH ALL COST! -“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) You can't do it, nor can your other like minded posse wouldn't because you want your God's cake and yours to eat. But you can't serve two masters. Dark and light can't mix together, rather your homosexual, a liar, a thief, a prostitute, an adulterer, a murderer, a pedophile, etc. It doesn't matter, it applies to all. This is my point, it not that one sin is greater than the other because its not. Its all sin.

[@Moochi19]

***** Once again, if that were truly the case, where is an example of me proving your point? If you cannot provide evidence of your claims, it is an irrelevant statement.> I already did, its not my fault that you can't read, lol. Never said you weren't a human being. Your telling me you don't care about my arugument because it talks about slavery yet your the one who brought slavery up. Your seriously delusional. Thanks for letting mt know that you believe the bible is a "magic book." Ill be happy to defute a person who knows nothing about scripture. You know nothing about God, yet your trying to debate with me. This is a useless debate then! No you may not ask that question simply because I never made that particular argument. I had a feeling that this would be way over your head and you would not possess the intelligence to understand the point that Paul was making when he referred to the law and the new way of the Spirit. I never said that Galatians 5:14 or Romans 13:10 had anything to do with "sexual love". I AM making the argument that the New Testament defines what sin is and it makes it clear in those 2 verses that we sin by not loving God and not loving our neighbors as ourselves. Look, if you love your neighbor, you will not steal, kill, lie, slander, ect. These verses are not saying that ,"You don't sin when you are showing love sexually to your neighbor". When you truly love your neighbor, you don't do things to harm then and that is the reason Paul mentions that "love does no harm to it's neighbor". > When Christianity became more dominate in Rome the laws changed and all homosexual relations were to be persecuted. Clearly was not acceptable. Some scholars say that it was not even widely acceptable in Greece, manly happened between men who were in high status who had relations with boys between the ages of 12-20. Homosexuality was a sin in those times, any type of homosexual behavior rather it was lustfully or consensual was a sin and they were persecuted. Also, Paul and the people in those days did not call it homosexuality because there were no words used for it. Never said I was perfect now did I? I am just amused by your answers which honestly makes no sense. The fact that you just said that the bible is evil says it all. Lol! Your right, it is. 3) Now as for you "Male and female ONLY" argument.... you mentioned the fact that a biblical marriage is between a man and a woman (only). I have about 4 complicated question for you that so far, no Christian has ever been able to answer. Perhaps you can clarify something for me that so far, no Christian has been able to do without contradicting themselves, the Bible, science, or all of the above. Now if I understand you correctly, you are making the argument that since I am a man and I know I'm a man by what I have between my legs, I should ONLY choose a woman as a mate, right? In your view, God made a law that we should not be homosexual and that law applies to EVERYONE and God does not make exceptions for ANYONE because he is 'just' in his ways. Furthermore, in Acts 10:34, it says, "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism." Mat 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, Mat 19:5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? Mat 19:6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together (male and female), let not man put asunder.> I think the Bible is clear here that God made male and female. I think it's clear here that he wanted the 2 to become 1 flesh. So far, I'm in complete agreement with you. Now it's about to get tricky because I'm leading up to a series of questions related to this that so far NO CHRISTIAN has ever been able to answer, so I look forward to your reply. Just because no other unions are mentioned, it does not prove they are condemned either especially for the fact that there were hardly any gay people in those days. By "gay" I mean 2 people that were in a committed and loving relationship.> Actually there were some who were commited in those days: www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html "Evidence exists that same-sex marriages were tolerated in parts of Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Artifacts from Egypt, for example, show that same-sex relationships not only existed, but the discovery of a pharaonic tomb for such a couple shows their union was recognized by the kingdom. Meanwhile, accounts of the Israelites’ departure for Canaan include their condemnation of Egyptian acceptance of same-sex practice. In actuality, same-sex marital practices and rituals are less known in Egypt compared to Mesopotamia, where documents exist for a variety of marital practices, including male lovers of kings and polyandry. None of the recorded laws of Mesopotamia, including the Code of Hammurabi, contain restrictions against same-sex unions despite the fact that marriages are otherwise well regulated (Eskridge)." The rest of this article provided good information. < Now for my favorite part! Yes God did create male and female (gender specifically mentioned. I beaming at you approvingly in total agreement and this is why the Bible CONTRADICTS SCIENCE! If God created our genders, and when we are born, our genders determine our sexual orientation for us, how do you explain AIS-intersex folks? Just a little background on the definition, an AIS-intersex individual is BORN with a vagina, female breasts, female voice box, outwardly looks completely female, and hormonally is more female than the average female. However, they do not have fallopian tubes, ovaries, a cervix, or a uterus. HERE IS THE BEST PART... They DO have internal testicles and their DNA is 100% MALE!!! Before I go on, there is a lovely youtube video called, "2 women with AIS". Just go to the search engine, type that in and you will see a short 9 minute video explaining in detail the condition these people are born with. These people are born with both genders! We know that God is a "just" God according to the Bible so he would not make a law or rule for one person and not another. These people are clearly born this way and through no fault of their own, are forced to deal with this dilemma. If God only created male and female like most Christians love to say he did, they still need to explain why he made intersex people. It does not matter if it is the result of a birth defect or not, the fact of the matter is, they are here. This condition contradicts the Conservative Christian view that God only made man for woman and woman for man. Who did He make intersex people for? They will technically be gay and straight at the same time because they are both sexes. Your whole argument is based on GENDER. In other words, you argue that if one is born a woman (GENDER) they should be with a man( GENDER). If one is born a man (GENDER), they should be with a woman (GENDER). If you are BORN as 2 genders, then your argument completely falls apart. Now normally what happens at this juncture is christians want to try to make the argument that AIS folks are somehow 'irrelevant' to this discussion. While I will admit that this does not prove that homosexuality is NOT a sin, it still had merit when discussing the issue of GENDER. You cannot bring up the topic of GENDER and then when I prove that GENDER is not always consistent in nature, then attempt to make the argument that this topic is irrelevant.> Ofcourse there are, but according science, every unisex orientation usually has more of one harmone than the other. One will feel more like a male or female. The ONLY way the Bible would not contradict itself in this context is if you accept MY interpretation and believe that God is NOT hung up on GENDER or sexual orientation. Now can you answer the following questions: 1) If God created our genders, and when we are born, our genders determine our sexual orientation for us, (we can agree that God is a 'just' God), and that He would never make a law that all of mankind could not keep, why would he create AIS people? Now before you say he didn't create them, but the fall of man did, let me remind you what Colossians 1:16 says, "For in him ALL things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL things have been created through him and for him." 2) Could your God not make up his mind? The Bible says in Psalm 139:19, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." This verse makes it clear that He is still involved in our creation, so again, what was God thinking if he is so hung up on gender? ;) 3) Who should an AIS person choose to marry without sinning? After all, they will be gay and straight no matter whom they choose? 4) And probably most importantly, can you offer any Biblical evidence or scientific evidence for your answers to these question? You have yet to provide any evidence of either. I'LL BE WAITING!! ;) 5) Would you not allow AIS people to marry at all since they are clearly 2 genders or would you try to stop that as well? 6) What evidence do you have that 2 members of the same sex in a loving and committed relationship are violating the one and ONLY command we are told to keep as New Testament believers? Galatians 5:14, "For the ENTIRE LAW is fulfilled with this one; love your neighbor as yourself." Now as far as Genesis and what Jesus said in Matthew 19, all I can say is, so what about it? You still have not proven that Jesus said that marriage is ONLY between a man and woman. Furthermore, gay marriage didn't exist back then so there would be no reason to mention it. Just because He does not mention it, does NOT mean that he forbids it or that it is a sin. You have NOT provided any evidence that 2 members of the same sex in a loving and committed relationship are violating Galatians 5:14 Now for the sake of time, let me predict your next 'proof text' and deal with it. You are trying to apply a verse written over 2000 years ago about an issue that didn't exist and apply it to an issue that DOES exist in 2015! You clearly do not understand, culture, context, and logic. To make matters even worse for you , you STILL would need to explain (with Biblical and scientific evidence) whom an intersex person should choose as a mate if your interpretation of Matthew 19 is correct. If God is so hung up on a gender marrying the opposite gender, why in the hell would He create someone that is BORN BOTH genders??? They will be gay with anyone they choose? What if they choose to marry another intersex person??? Then what,? And don't tell me that God will "apply mercy in that particular situation and allow them to choose" unless you can back that statement up with Biblical support. And if you insist on making that argument, you need to explain how you reconcile Acts 10:34, "God does NOT show favortism." Since I believe that the Bible is inconsistent and does contradict itself, I have no problem coming to the conclusion . Having said that, let's assume that it does NOT contradict itself. I still do not see in this particular circumstance that God would be contradicting Himself. Here is your other problem; God MEANT for MANY things to happen that clearly do NOT happen, but this does NOT mean that the things that DO happen are sinful. For example, God may have MEANT for us to have 2 parents, but sometimes parents die or abandon their children. Sometimes a child may have 2 extra parents in the form of step-parents. Are step-parents part of God's original plan? Of course not, but this does not mean the relationship that they have with the children is OUTSIDE of God's plan or becomes 'sinful'.> Acts of abandoning and death happened because of sin. So the act of sin plays a lot on tragic events in life. The plan for child to be raised by a mother and/father is apart of God's plan. Queen Ester was not raised by her parents, she was raised by her cousin. However; he was considered her parent and raised her in knowledge of God and she honored the Lord. There is no sin against an act of parenthood. However; parents are to grow their children in truth because they will be held responsible as to how they raise their children. The bible says “Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it” (Proverbs 22:6). And as for Jesus not saying that marriage is between a man and a woman, he did because Jesus is God himself. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there. John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'" Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom." As far as sin, the bible also doesnt talk about pedophiles but does that mean that its not wrong? Lol. Here are verses to show that the world is sinful and the normal things are no longer normal by the bible and science: Romans 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.. This something I got from a website who say that a scientist approves that humans have evil nature: "There are many theories about why humans commit unspeakable evil, but none of them are particularly comforting. If the childhoods of serial killers are filled with abuse and hardship, then they can appear to be victims of painful circumstances. But if society isn’t to blame at all - if murderers have charming upbringings and little to complain about - then could they be born evil? Scientists in Sweden have analysed criminals who commit the most serious crimes, and believe they have identified the genes that contribute towards violence. The discovery suggests that acts of evil aren’t terrifyingly inhumane, but all too human. We could all commit evil Brian Masters, who has written biographies of several mass murderers including Rosemary West and Dennis Nilsen, says that every human being has the capacity to commit wicked acts. The purpose of society is to curtail evil and without that influence - such as in Nazi Germany, where mass murder was encouraged - every human could commit terrible deeds." www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/11195840/Are-some-humans-born-evil.html An inter-sex born child is apart of creation and like I mentioned and you re-quoted, God created female and male. 1 out of 1,000- 3,000 inter-sex are born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Christians are to be sensitive to the fact that this happens which does not eliminate that God loves his creation but it is still evident that because of the fall of Adam and Eve, abnormalities happen to all of creation. This is not the same as homosexuals. In Christ, he is able to redeem to the uttermost for nothing is impossible with God (Luke 1:37). In that regards here is a post from a Christian site that speaks on inter-sex: "In the beginning, God created humans male and female (Genesis 1:27). Today, however, we know that individuals are born who possess both male and female reproductive tissues. As Christians, we must tear down the veil of shame and secrecy, and deal with issues such as these that societal conditions have placed squarely on our doorstep. Inter-sexed people are people with souls-as well as people who may one day want to marry and rear children. As each day brings new ethical dilemmas, we must strive to look at them within the scope of God’s inspired Word. And that Word-not human opinion-must remain the criterion against which new developments are measured. We must not forget that scientific evidence documents that these abnormalities are a result of humanity’s mutated gene pool. Through the years, sex-determining genes have mutated as the result of people’s exposure to harmful chemicals like DDT, asbestos, thalidomide, etc. Christians must be compassionate toward inter-sexed people, but at the same time must not fall prey to the false idea that inter-sexuality proves that homosexuals are simply “born that way.” Although I would disagree that homosexuals are not born with sexual attraction that develops overtime, he has a point when it comes to people who are inter-sex because this is how they were born and this is who they are. This is an issue that involves the fact that one can be both male and female without it being sinful because they were born with both organs and certain levels of hormones. They are still made in the image of God. Homosexuals and those born with one genital does is a different thing because they specifically have more of the greater hormone and do not have a syndrome but are refered to having a sexual orientation. I love this post which is how I see it: "From a biblical perspective, the answer is “no.” Despite the fact that a tiny fraction of the population faces life with an intersex condition, Scripture teaches that humans are made in God’s image as male and female, and that there’s a complementarity of the sexes that uniquely brings forth new life and - mysteriously - reflects who God is (Gen. 1:27). Clearly, gender and sexuality matter to God. "Yet, we humans live in a fallen state - and in a fallen world - which impacts us spiritually, emotionally, mentally and even physically. Indeed, there are a number of genetic, biological and congenital conditions that manifest themselves in ways that preclude certain activities and plague our physical existence. But we know that God is good and He intends to show Himself strong in our weaknesses. Moreover, His mercies are new every morning (Lam. 3:23) and He promises us the ongoing and sufficient grace we need (2 Cor. 12:9) in order to walk in ways that bring Him glory and more fully reveal Himself to a broken and dying world. So how should we, as Christians, minister to those among us who deal with the unique and often traumatic circumstances associated with inter-sexuality? Some inter-sex individuals will marry, and some may never discover their underlying condition. But Jesus’ own words, as recorded in Matthew 19, should serve as our guide for those who cannot or don’t marry due to inter-sex issues. Recall that in this passage Jesus is discussing eunuchs who were “born” that way, “made that way” by men, or have “renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.” While the context of this statement by Jesus is clearly centered on the questions of divorce, marriage, and God’s created intent for human sexual expression, it’s comforting to note that Jesus frames both the beginning and end of his comments here with an acknowledgment that not all can accept this word - indicating deep compassion on His part with those who find themselves in circumstances whereby they are unable to enter into the “one-flesh union” of marriage, whether by design, mutilation or personal decision. Moreover, Jesus indicates that this calling is given to only a few - implying that abundant grace is afforded to those who, for whatever reason, are to bear what Paul refers to as the gift of singleness (1 Cor. 7)." www.citizenlink.com/2010/06/15/what-about-intersexuality/ People are born with different conditions such as physical and mental disorders, I would not classify inter-sexuals with homosexuals at all. Also there is no sin against an inter-sexual getting married as one may desire to be more female than male or vice versa. If they have hormones that are predominantly male but look like a woman on the outside. One may consider if they want a sex change but that is their choice to celibacy or to pursue a relationship based on their predominate sex. Your wasting it. And now your sinning after I told you the truth and still accusing me of lying intentionally. That is not an act of love now is it? Un forgiveness is a sin and are you kidding me that no one makes a church perform gay marriages? Are you seriously in reality? I don't even know why I am having this debate with someone who clearly has not researched what goes on in reality and is in suffering of extreme deception. Blacks seek rights, the Irish seek rights to the British, so did Americans to the British and every other race and nationality that seek rights. Race / nationality and sexual orientation is not the same thing. Homosexuals fought for marriage rights which is by human rights to get married out of the traditional laws that were held for heterosexual marriage. Black people's rights were totally different. Did a homosexual get told that they could not shop in the same shop, buy in store, use the same hospital, ride in the back of a bus? I don't disagree that those who lived the homosexual lifestyle did not face any form of persecution but that was dealt with under morality where blacks were just hated period for the colour of their skin which is not a moral issue. Morality involves psychological and emotional attributes of a person. If a gay man walked in a room, there is a high chance one would not know he was gay unless he said he was. If a black person or a white person walked into a room, one would know that person was black or white. As far as the pedophile groups seeking/ have seek rights: Australia: Australian Man/Boy Love Association (AMBLA). The group is not an exclusively paedophile organisation, but it is supportive of paedophiles. It is a regular attendant at the annual IPCE (International Paedophile and Child Emancipation) Conference. In 1994, following inquiries from Australia, AMBLA changed its name from the Aotearoa Man/Boy-Love Association to the Australasian MBLA. Australian Paedophile Support Group (APSG). Founded in 1980 or 1983 according to other sources. It was succeeded by the Boy Lovers and Zucchini Eaters (BLAZE), another group dismantled by police. Belgium: Logo of the Belgian association Stiekum Dokumentatieidients Pedofilie. Defunct? Centre de Recherche et d'Information sur l'Enfance et la Sexualité (CRIES), 1982-1986. Founded by Philippe Charpentier. It was destroyed in a sensational conspiracy trial which resulted in the extinction of any pedophile movement in Belgium and France. The group published the magazine L'Espoir. Fach Und Selbsthilfegruppe Paedophilie. Founded at the early 1970s. In autumn 1994 Professor Rüdiger Lautmann came to Zurich to have a public speech for this group. Defunct? Groupe d'Étude sur la Pédophilie. Founded in 1982 by the association Infor Homosexualitaté. In 1982, it was renamed CRIES. Stiekum: Studiegroep Pedofilie Defunct. Canada: Coalition Pédophile Québécois Fondation Nouvelle. Defunct. Denmark: Danish Pedophile Association (DPA), 1985-2004. One of the most important pedophile associations in Europe.Defunct. French: Groupe de Recherche pour une Enfance Différente (GRED), 1979-1987. The group published the bulletin Le Petit Gredin (The Little Rogue). Germany: AG-Pädo. Founded in 1991 by the association Arbeitsgruppe des Bundesverbandes Homosexualität. Active. Aktion Freis Leben (AFL) Defunct? Arbeitskreis Päderastie-Pädophilie (APF). Active in the early 1980s. Mainly for heterosexual pedophiles. Arbeitsgemeinschaft Humane Sexualität (AHS). Defunct since 1983. Deutsche Studien- und Arbeitsgemeinschaft Pädophilie (DSAP). 1979-1983. Fach und Selbsthilfegruppe Paedophilie. Defunct? Indianerkommune. Active from the 1970s through the mid-1980s.Self-defined as children's liberation commune, strongly identifying as pedophile, active late 1970s-late 1980s; according to some authors there are several independent local groups active in Germany today. Kanalratten. Offshoot of the Indianerkommune but for female pedophiles. Kinderfrühling. Krumme 13 (K13), 1993-2003. Pädoguppe, Rat und Tat-Zentrum.Defunct? Pädophile Selbsthilfe- und Emanzipationsgruppe München (SHG). Founded in 1979. Starting in 2003, police began raiding its members, resulting in more than half a million items of child pornography seized and multiple arrests. Verein für sexuelle Gleichberechtigung. Founded in Munich. 1973-1988 India: Indian National Man Boy Congress Party. Founded in 1885. Italy: Gruppo P. Founded in 1989 by Francesco Vallini. Despite its legitimate status, Vallini spent three years in prison for running a criminal association. Despite this, the well-established gay magazine Babilonia continues to employ Vallini, and to support his ideas, although Gruppo P as such may be no more. The group published the bulletin Corriere del pedofili. Defunct. Netherlands: Logo of MARTIJN. Enclave Kring. Founded in the 1950s by the psychologist Frits Bernard. It was the first pedophile association, devoted to science research of pedophilia. Defunct. Jon. Founded in 1979 by the Dutch Society for Sexual Reform. Active. Party for Neighbourly Love, Freedom, and Diversity. 2006-2008. Dutch political party that advocated lowering the legal age of consent to 12 years old and legalizing child pornography. Vereniging Martijn. Founded in 1982. The most important pedophile association in Europe. On 27 June 2012 a Dutch court ruled that the group was illegal and ordered it to disband immediately. However this decision was overturned by a higher court in April 2013. The judge motivated his or her decision by stating that the club did not commit crimes and had the right of freedom of association. The group published the bulletin OK Magazine. Norway: Norwegian Pedophile Group (NAFP) Switzerland: Schweizerische Arbeitsgemeinschaft Pädophile Defunct. United Kingdom: Paedophile Action for Liberation, 1974-1976. Defunct (merged with PIE) Paedophile Information Exchange, 1974-1984. One of the most important pedophile associations in Europe. It was affiliated to the National Council for Civil Liberties, now known as Liberty, between 1978 and 1983, year in which it was expelled. It published the magazines MagPIE, Understanding Paedophilia and Childhood Rights. United States: Boywiki Childhood Sensuality Circle (CSC). Founded in 1971 in San Diego (California) by a student of Wilhelm Reich. CSC closed down in the mid-1980s, when Valida Davila became too frail to continue with it. North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA). 1978-present. Largely defunct. Pedophile Information Society. Defunct Project Truth. One of the organizations which was expulsed from ILGA in 1994 as a pedophile organization. Defunct Clearly many shut down overtime but a few are still active. Look for your self: Christian Businesses: Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado-This case is currently being appealed. Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association in New Jersey-No longer allowed to perform weddings on the premises. Elane’s Photography in New Mexico-Owners lost an anti-discrimination case. Memories Pizza in Indiana-Closed due to threats. Liberty Ridge Farm in New York-Fined $11,500. Arlene’s Flowers in Washington State-Fined $1,001 with possible additional fines. Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Idaho-Case is returning to court after failed negotiations. Twilight Room Annex in Oregon-Fined $400,000. All Occasion Party Place in Texas-Business is under boycott. Fleur Cakes in Oregon-Boycotted by same-sex activists. Victoria’s Cake Cottage in Iowa-Business is under boycott. Just Cookies in Indiana-Charged with discrimination. Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon-Business is closed. Wildflower Inn in Vermont-Paid $30,000 in damages and closed their doors. Walders in Illinois-Sued for human rights violations. Aloha Bed & Breakfast in Hawaii-Ordered by the state to provide rooms to same-sex couples. Christian Individuals: Brendan Eich-The Mozilla CEO lost his job after donating personal money to support the California proposition 8 initiative, supporting traditional marriage. Craig James-A Fox News broadcaster, James was fired after the network learned of a video in which he supported traditional marriage. Benham Brothers-Jason and David Benham were well-known real estate professionals about to debut their new HGTV show “Flip it Forward.” However, their stance on traditional marriage upset homosexual advocates, who convinced HGTV to cancel the show. Phil Robertson-The famous Duck Dynasty patriarch was suspended from appearing on his television show after stating he believed homosexuality was a sin. A&E, which airs the show, later relented among public backlash. This clearly shows that its not just churches but other people and other businesses too. This article just came out two weeks ago about a homosexual group telling the government to shut down churches who opposes gay marriage: toprightnews.com/gay-group-demands-christian-churches-be-shut-down-for-opposing-same-sex-marriage/

[@damnitjim4689]

Blue Tiger I do enjoy watching Biblically ignorant religiously hypocritical people like you proven wrong. I know you may never admit that you have been proven wrong, but that it just because of the mental issue/s you suffer from.

[@KuroKitsune101]

Is it just me or do they let Michael Brown talk more than Matthew Vines??

[@fitnessguru8012]

He has a bigger wealth on knowledge than Matthew. It's not timed moderating in play here.

[@marclaclear6628]

I'm coming out of the closet, I can't hide from who I am anymore. I've fought this for years but I can't take it any longer. I'm here to say that I am a man who is prideful. God wouldn't have made me this way if I wasn't meant to live it out. I know that the bible has nothing but negative things to say about pride but we live in a different time. The bible writers weren't addressing modern pride at all. Can you cite one 1st century source of youtube comment pride? NO! They weren't addressing it then and it is perfectly acceptable to continue in this behavior.

[@Coaco98]

If you took this philosophy used here, you might as well throw out the bible completely, because it seems to me what you are saying is the teachings of the Word no longer applies - which is simply not true.

[@marclaclear6628]

Absolutely. That was the point of this satire.

[@Awurabena1]

Homosexuality was address by Paul in first century. Romans 1. But of course the human heart is callous. Hard.

[@Anthm2011]

I'm coming out of the closet, I was attracted to a very beautiful woman on the train yesterday. I then saw she had a wedding ring on her finger. I am a single male who longs for a partner in life. I could have been smitten by her soft beauty. My note to self - Self control, right is right and wrong is wrong!! There is something more important than who I am randomly sexually attracted to.

[@rednerrus8219]

Thanks to you brother, I now feel comfortable coming out as well. I like having sex with beasts! I know it was prohibitted in the OT, but it also prohibitted other things like eating shellfish and pigs, and who follows those laws anymore? The NT or the early Church leaders never said anything negative about beastiality, especially not with protection. Matt Vines truly is an example to us all!

[@CourtneyPoe]

People can be born as both male and female... they did not get a choice. I was born a woman and was not given a choice but I was rather conditioned to desire what I desire. Either way, sexuality and gender has little to do with another...

[@chuggeez_8851]

Mr. Vines has his comments turned off on a video of his I just watched & I watched the whoooooole thing. It was captivating, eye opening & answered some questions I've had for a long time. I empathize with his heartfelt outcry & came to the understanding & conclusion that he has formed & honed his own special unique masterful manipulation of biblical scripture. It was quite something to watch/listen to. "Go and sin no more"~Jesus of Nazareth Edit: I wrote my above comment before listening to this video... 9:57 -10:24 I think I might forever be perplexed as to why any homosexual would want to be a Christian.

[@xSlappykinkaidx]

Let me try to provide some clarification here. Before I begin, I know that you have been debating with a lot of atheists & such. I am a devout Christian who has studied the scriptures most of my life, & who was raised by a Baptist minister & military chaplain. So I come from a background of a better understanding of the scriptures than most people. Before we get into whether homosexuality is a sin or not, we first need to take a moment to observe the context of what is being dealt with. & that is an entire class of people that are affected by this narrative. You need to understand that Christ himself said the most important commandment is to love as he loved. So in all things, we need to make sure we are observing that commandment. If we do not do so, then we are failing in our most important duty as Christians. Secondly we need to take into account the effect that taking such a judgemental & oppositional stance towards an entire class of people has on not only that class of people, but also how it ripples out to the rest of society. Keep in mind, every year, many adults & youth commit suicide, & battle abuse & depression on mas scales simply because of pseudo-Christians whom feel they have a sort of righteous justification for oppressing them because of their sexual orientation. So with that all in mind, it is very clear to see that if we are to take any sort of oppositional or prohibitionary stance against something like homosexuality, we have to make absolutely certain that there is a clear & irrefutable Biblical case supporting that stance. Otherwise we not only risk defying Christ's commandment to love as he loved, but we also take that risk with absolutely no virtue whatsoever. So with that in mind, let's observe what the scriptures really do say. First of all, whenever studying the Bible, it is imperative that you have a working understanding of language, not just English, but ancient Hebrew, Aramaic & Greek as well, so that you can word study the original language text. You also must have a solid understanding of ancient Hebrew, Phoenician & Greek / Roman culture to understand the context of those scriptures in the time & places that they were written. So, starting with the Old testament scriptures, which consist of the stories of Sodom & Gomorrah, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13. Now anti gay Christians argue that Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed due to their desire to have their way with the male angels in Lot's house. However this argument falls apart in several key areas. First of all, homosexuality, (in the manner that it was practiced in that time & place), was not exclusive to those towns. In fact, it was a common trend throughout all of ancient Phoenicia. So to presume that these towns are being singled out & somehow being judged for something that is a broader regional trend does not make any sense at all. If homosexual acts were indeed the sin that warranted such punishment, then the entire region would have been destroyed. This also presumes that had the angels been women, it somehow would have been more acceptable to God, as it was a heterosexual issue rather than a presumably homosexual one. The other thing that needs to be considered is the story of the Levite & the Concubine in the book of Judges. Remember, that story is nearly identical to that of the story of Sodom & Gomorrah, the only difference is, the target of the locals was a female concubine rather than male angels. & you will note that after the concubine was raped & ultimately murdered, That act resulted in the entire tribe of Benjamin being cut off from the other 12 tribes of Israel & nearly wiped out. On top of that, if you reference Ezekiel 16:49-50 it clearly states that the sin of Sodom & Gomorrah was their extreme hostility & brutality to outsiders, their idolatrous ways & their disregard for the poor & needy that was their sin. So the Sodom & Gomorrah based Anti gay argument does not hold any water on closer examination. So then we move on to the argument from Leviticus. Keep in mind, Leviticus 18, 19 & 20 all occur during the same dialogue between God & Moses, So 20:13 is simply a repeat of 18:22. So let's address that verse. It seems at first glance, when observed by itself to be a clear cut prohibition against homosexuality. However, again, when you dig deeper, that is not the case. First, if you observe the 1st 5 verses it shows God telling Moses that the people of Israel are not to be like the people of Egypt which they had just left, nor the people of Canaan where they were going. This is very important because A. It specifies that these pieces of scripture are specific to the Hebrew, Egyptian & Canaanite people & B. it puts the logical subtext of "As the Egyptians & Canaanites do" on all the acts addressed. Now I know you might argue that God intended it to be a general cookie cutter scripture for Jew & Gentile alike throughout all times, However the problem with that is you then have to either entirely disregard Leviticus 18:1-5 entirely or accept that at least those verses were specific to the Hebrew people, but somehow the rest of it beyond that was not, which makes absolutely no sense because why would God specify in a preamble for 1 specific group of people not to be like 2 other specific groups, then suddenly disregard that preamble when specifying the manner in which they are to be different? So as you can see, both those options do not work, & as I am sure you already well know, you cannot disregard portions of scripture in favor of using other parts to fit your own narrative. So, with that in mind, That now requires us to observe how these matters fit in within ancient Canaanite culture. When we do so, we find that simple monogamous same sex relationships were not very common in that time & place. Believe me, I have studied & researched for YEARS looking for any evidence of such. What WAS however very commonplace was the act of Canaanite men having sex with male pagan temple priests called Assinu wherin, through the act of having sex with them, they would sacrifice their "Life force", (semen), to the gods, (like Moloch, Baal, Ishtar, Astarte, etc...), in hopes of the gods blessing them with fertility for their crops, livestock & family. So as you can clearly see, this is much more complex than just an issue of sexual orientation. It is clear as day that the real sin is the act of idolatry of Hebrew men participating in these Canaanite pagan fertility rites. Keep in mind, idolatry is strictly forbidden in the 10 commandments. The anti-gay narrative also implies that if these Assinu priests were female instead of male, it would be A-ok because it was heterosexual rather than homosexual, despite the clear acts of idolatry being committed. So again, we see the Leviticus based anti gay argument falling short. Coincidentially, this was the same conclusion that Philo reached when he studied the Levitical texts as well. So let's move on to the New testament. Starting with Romans 1. Now again we see a similar trend as with Leviticus. We see the issue of Idolatry being addressed right off the bat, which tells us straight away that there is an idolatrous context to what he is speaking about. Now again, if we just look at the scripture at sheer face value we can conclude that he seems to be speaking against homosexuality, however, like any good teacher, God does not want us just doing lazy face value research. So we need to dive into the culture of Ancient Rome. Keep in mind, this is about 3000 years after the Exodus of the Hebrew people from Egypt. Homosexuality was more culturally prevalent then, but still not as we know it today. It's primary applications were in things such as pederasty, (Forced man / boy relationships), & such. Not as much in monogamous same sex adult relationships. But not only do we need to identify a homosexual cultural trend, but also one that is idolatrous, because that is specifically noted in what Paul wrote. So what fits those parameters? The most commonplace of all sexual acts of that time, which were the orgies in worship of gods like Pan, Cybele, Dionysus & Aphroditie. & during these orgies, not only were men & women intimate with both genders, but they also typically got wasted on all kinds of drug cocktails taken orally, (by drink or smoking), or in the form of enemas. During these orgies they would also frequently engage in self flaggelation, (self beating), & even self castration in an attempt to be closer to the god Attis. So with these acts far better matching the issues that Paul was speaking of, & far more unnatural & idolatrous than a simple same sex monogamous relationship, To presume that Paul was overlooking them & was talking about homosexuality in general is simply absurd. Also keep in mind, Paul was opposed to sexual activity of any kind, including sex between a man & his wife. So details like that are important to observe when attempting to view his words through his mindset. So moving on to 1st Corinthians. This is actually the most flawed of all anti gay arguments, because it relies on grammatical mis-translations. When the Amplified Bible of 1958 was written, the translators of that Bible REPLACED the word effeminate with the word homosexual, because they, in their infinite ignorance assumed "Well the word effeminate means homosexual to us, so that obviously must be what Paul meant". & sadly this was a monumental error on their part. Keep in mind, if I say the word "fag", as an American, you would likely read that word as a derogatory word for a homosexual person, while someone from the UK would read it as a slang word for a cigarette. & that is just a small example of a gap in context of a word in modern day English. So how much arrogance & ignorance is there to lazily presume modern English context on text from thousands of years ago in a whole different language? Not only that, but effeminate was just the closest matching English word to the Greek word Paul used, which was Malakoi. Malakoi was a multi purpose word basically meaning soft. As in a soft pillow, or someone who is soft in the head, or a soft sissified city boy. So once again, we are forced to look into the culture of ancient Corinth to identify the context in which Paul is using this word. When we do, we find that he was in fact referring to the vain upper class elites of both men & women whom wore lavish clothes & make up, (often similar to that worn by prostitutes of that time), whom were obsessed with their appearance & cared little for more virtuous things like looking after the poor & needy. Much like the Malakoi rich man that Christ himself said would have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel would getting through the eye of a needle. So in truth, we find that this bit of scripture applies more to the likes of Rand Paul than it does Ru-Paul. Now, I am sure that your response will be to write me off as "trying to distort Biblical scripture to defend sin" or something to that regard & completely disregard everything I have told you. That is, no disrespect intended, a natural defense mechanism for someone whom is faced with having his/her beliefs called into question. It's simply easier & more comfortable to ignore the evidence presented by others, convince yourself that it is lies & trickery & cling to your flawed ideology. & as a flawed human, that is understandable. But as a credible Christian, whom claims to seek after God's word, that would be nothing more than lying to yourself & those around you. & again, as I said in the very beginning, Christ's greatest commandment is to love as he has loved. Therefore, if you are going to stand in opposition of someone else'e lifestyle choice, (in this case, homosexuality), the responsibility is on YOU to present an airtight & irrefutable Biblical case against homosexuality. & if one cannot be created, then, as a legitimate Christian, you must realize that pushing such a harmful & oppressive narrative without legitimate Biblical backing not only causes you to become the oppressive bigot against others, but also the blasphemer & false witness whom uses a warped interpretation of Biblical scripture as a tool to attack others & slander God while also completely defying Christ's commandment to love as he did. & before you even attempt to claim otherwise, remember. In order to do so, you MUST have an IRREFUTABLE Biblical case supporting your claims. Otherwise, all you achieve is lying to yourself. No one else will be fooled, including God.

[@faith2686]

But what about Paul allowing marriage? I don't think that your side point of Paul not thinking sex was good in any circumstance is a valid one.

[@tdurzynski]

Yes God loves us the way we are - But God loves us too much to leave us this way.

[@eperon]

There but for the grace God, Dr. Brown could have been born homosexual. I have a sense that then his stance would be far different. I am convinced that only those who actually “walk in the shoes” can truly understand the complexity of the subject. At the risk of making a bad pun, there has to be skin in the game to fully understand both sides. Can a Christian be gay? Absolutely.

[@connievino4226]

He may have same sex attraction but not act on it.

[@mike1967sam]

29:30 - I've heard this so many times in debates on this topic. The proponent of "gay christianity" does all this juggling with Romans I and with Paul's interpretation. I heard the excuse in another debate that "O no, Paul doesn't condemn loving gay relationships he's only addressing homosexual acts within the temple where men would prostitute themselves with other men..." ...and so on. You really have to write a whole other "bible" if you want to make homosexuality a valid form of relationship according to God the Father and to The Lord Jesus.

[@TruthBeTold7]

Matthews arguments were mostly from silence. He is interpreting the Bible through his homosexual perverted lens instead of letting the verses speak on their own terms.

[@jasonm8362]

+TrueChristian Videos And which verses defeat Matthew?

[@francoisvanstaden4049]

Matthew Vines is doing what most Christians today are doing. They argue their case and try to support it with the bible, using only several verses that supports their false doctrine. There are numerous men who are NOT true followers of Christ would love to be able to sleep with a lot of several gorgeous woman....BUT that is contradictory to the word of GOD, so even straight men, have to submit to the word of GOD, and not just do what we want..... Anton La Vey (Founder of the Satanic Church) said: Do what thou want....... We should submit every day to Christ, and do the will of the GOD the FATHER, and NOT our will.....

[@jfish032]

True and fair point, but there's a collosal difference between experiencing a loving sexual relationship with one person then zero

[@jelleepit]

This is the result of superimposing one's own opinions onto scripture. This guy has now become a reprobate and has rejected God's authority over his own. His conscience is seared, I just pray that somehow the Spirit can convict him of this error.

[@junelledembroski9183]

Jelleepit Amen! I pray he’s saved in Jesus’s name!

[@jelleepit]

@David C Lev 20:13

[@ernestmonroe2240]

Rabbi Brown, a gay person in this country suffers non-stop persecution throughout his/her life. It is my sense that if there is a hell, then it can't possibly be any worse. Hell would be just a continuation of the torture started by self-righteous and hypocritical Christians on earth. One thing I note with deep chagrin. You and others, who make a good living bashing gays are totally negligent in that you intentionally leave out the most important parts of the story. It is human nature to seek to stop and avoid anything that one finds oppressive to ones well-being. In this society, being gay is one of those states of being, which leads to one being oppressed and persecuted 24/7. That gay person has payed tithes, prayed, fasted, moaned, groaned and toyed with ideas of committing suicide due, in no small part, to messages such as yours. Additionally, up and down the religious hierarchy, ministers have stayed and prayed and made promises and pledges to God in their desire to see that gay person changed to straight. Those appeals to God, by everyone cited above, are made and based in part or in total on the following verses: Numbers 23:19 "Has he said and shall he not do? Or, has he not spoken and shall he not make it good?In Matthews: 18:19 and 21:22 In Mark 11:24, and 15:7 we have Jesus promising, pledging and prophesying that anything a believer asked him for, he would do it. So, Dr. Brown, you have no problem highlighting all the negatives in the Bible about gay life. However, the above verses cite the positives or the cure as it might be. Why not? You believe in the condemnation but you evidently have no faith whatsoever in the promised, pledged and prophesied salvation. You and others of your ilk know it doesn't work. Furthermore, you are so good at citing the case that the Bible calls for the death of homosexuals. On the other hand, you so conveniently ignore, forget and/or readily dismiss the fact that, that same Bible calls for the stoning of false prophets. Why is that Dr. Brown? Is it due to the fact that Jesus, his claims and false prophecies would cause him to be placed in the bullseye of the ones throwing the stones? If the truth matters then let it be told.

[@StephenGibney]

They mute microphones-because it prevents people talking over each other. It is not a formal debate.

[@reformedcatholic457]

No, someone can't be gay and Christian. Christians of church history have always condemned practicing homosexuals. Either repent of the sinful lifestyle of having a same sex partner or don't be a Christian. If you want to live in sin then don't label yourself as a Christian. This is the truth.

[@MattHintze]

Dr. Brown obviously won the debate. Vines' argument that there was no homosexual in a committed relationship in Bible times doesn't prove that homosexual relationships are moral; it's impossible to prove from the Bible, so you have to make an argument against the natural order of creation...and with silence. I do wish there was less interjection with Julie Roys; I'd of liked more back and forth, but it seemed to cut off the little time both debaters had to make their points.

[@jon66097]

***** Evidence please, which scripture was he misinterpreting? Can we please stop trying to take cheap shots against people we don't agree with. What I find ironic is that when you are so prejudiced against someone you start seeing things that are not there. I refuse to take that kind of approach and try to instead look through their arguments, respect them and most importantly, love them as, Peter writes, that people will be ashamed when ridiculing you. We Christians need to do this when dealing with people we don't agree with like Matthew Vines and as well Shabir Ally, whom I actually respect for his honestly, though I think his methods are bias. God bless :)

[@jon66097]

***** For the sake of argument I'll agree with you that the sin was not homosexuality in S & G. THat still doesn't make homosexuality right. And also Christ came to fulfil the law and not abolish it(Matthew 5:17). Paul writes that by faith we uphold the law. But Paul also writes that the Gentiles are not subject to the law. How do we then uphold the law? We do this by upholding the moral principles of the law. Sure, nobody today offers child sacrifice to Molech anymore but that law still tells me that I shouldn't sacrifice children. And also, the law also forbids beastiality. Are Christians then allowed to have sex with animals then since it the law does not apply to the Gentiles. Of course not, the moral principles of the law are still to be upheld. Moreover, what does Genesis have to say about marriage? Genesis 2:18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper CORRESPONDING to him.” The helper for man is to be one that corresponds to him, who is different from him. This can only be a woman. This is supported more in the same chapter. Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become ONE FLESH. Jesus repeats this. Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ 7 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” Also, Paul interprets it in a physical sense. 1 Corinthians 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined[d] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” Also the Ten Commandments are also part of the law. One of the commandments is to not commit adultery and adultery is any act of sex outside of marriage. In the context of the Mosaic Law, homosexuals cannot ever get married so that would make homosexuality adultery, along with the biblical proof above that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. God bless :)

[@jon66097]

***** Also one more thing can you bring me any proof that Paul was a conflicted Christian? Are you trying to assert that Paul was gay, as John Shelby claims?

[@jon66097]

***** Proof please

[@1norville]

Matt Hintze She's a woman, they talk too much.

[@feanor411]

Your bias is showing...halfway through & Matthew Vines has had almost no chance to speak his part. Clearly this isn't actually a 'debate.'

[@yoursola]

This young boy is doing all he can to justify his sinful lifestyle.....Such a shame! He is in my prayers!

[@PeaceandLuke]

It's not about a feeling it's about obedience. Denying self and taking up our cross is ceasing and putting to death doing everything my way or the worlds way and doing Gods way.

[@randyrice854]

Maybe we gays are some mix of female and male therefore we don’t have to choose the wife or husband role because we ,singly are both

[@MrPioneerlight2011]

I cannot believe we are even having this discussion!!!!

[@chazgirl6186]

It's insane isn't it

[@brettpruefer7541]

Exactly! The clear answer is yes, gays can be Christians.

[@danielolson437]

Love joy peace...displaying the fruit of the Spirit. If our responses are name calling, divisive, and arrogant, the Spirit does not speak through us and our words should be disregarded by all. If we claim to be as "One on the watch tower" using "tough love" We must first, according to scripture, be appointed as an overseer to those we instruct. God is a god of order and authority, but In order to "make disciples" under the new covenant, this can only be accomplished in those who *voluntarily* sit under our teaching. This requires building trust and relationship, which means loving them with compassion, patience and hands on interaction, not repeating scripture across the internet to those in whom we have no real investment, and proclaiming a standard which we fail to meet ourselves (Romans 2:1). It is better that we remain silent rather than speak anything that is not dripping with honey of encouragement and edification. Yet even here I appear as a fool for straddling the line of my own hypocrisy.

[@angelojohnnys1339]

The host was a very nice person very respectable for both parties she did a great job

[@chrisschene8301]

Matthew Vines sound like a very good person but his theology is wrong.

[@corbinjames8787]

So many straw man fallacies. Plus I thought they were being rather rude to poor Matthew, you may not agree with him, but stop dehumanizing him. If Matthew was aloud to talk more he would have won on the pure basis of better logic.

[@rose12787]

What made me angry is that they seemed to favor the Dr's words over Matthew's. This is supposed to be a debate, which does not show favoritism. If they wanted to keep this neutral, they failed miserably.

[@emem1483]

+bulldogsbob well considering im arguing rn with u i would say there is a debate

[@kathenderson5105]

The wide way to live is easy, but the narrow way is hard to find. All of us deserve to go to hell, but I know that there are some who will enter into the narrow gate and go to heaven. I pray that Matthew finds the narrow gate.

[@TheToontownprincess]

I would like to point out that Jesus himself never specifically addressed homosexuality. Man Christians need to stop telling people how to live their lives. I am a christian through and through but all y'all are so afraid of change, God loves all. I just can't even imagine being gay and being ridiculed by christians I for one will not tolerate that kind of behavior. Treat others how you would wanted to be treated, love thy neighbor as thy self. Just because you're hetrosexual does not make you better than a homosexual. We are equal in Gods eyes we all sin, but being gay is not. God bless you all I pray for your hateful hearts.

[@mentalfloss100]

Nicole Hattman The most beautiful thing God made was a sperm , it was not Gods will for that beautiful sperm to go into the DIRTEST place on Earth !!!!!!!!!!!! Satan finds great joy in that behavior !!!!!!!!!

[@rontommy50]

I’m sure Matthew is a very nice guy BUT, he was metaphorically, torn to pieces.he is so wrong on this subject. As evidenced by Dr Brown. Matthew wants to rewrite and reinterpret the Bible to fit with his fallen perverted nature, More worrying though, he is misleading, often confused and vulnerable people. I’m praying for him that God will bring him back to the truth. Thankyou for showing this.

[@mlalexzyt]

The question should be ... Can you be Christian and Gay? No you cannot. Romans 6:1 and 2 - What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

[@2011funnybone]

So, what is God's view of homosexuality, or being Christian gay? For a start, I will quote God's word to show us what type of person we're dealing with here: “Do not be mislead: God is not one to be mocked, for whatever a person is sowing, this he shall also reap.” That was taken word-for-word from the Bible book of Galatians, chapter 6, verse 7. What it's meaning is if you practice something in a fleshly way, being bad or good, you will not escape the consequences of your actions. If you continue to smoke over many years, you will eventually suffer poor health. If you drink a lot of alcohol daily, weekly or monthly, your body and mind will suffer. The living God is not going to heal you or cure you because of your past actions. Not until AFTER Jesus has taken over rule of the earth. It's the same with sexual matters, yet with more of a do or don't do action. God has standards that all his worshippers should meet, morally and ethically. God doesn't over centuries, or over many millenniums change his mind, he stays the same person constantly. “God is Love.” That's the wonderful thing about him. He's consistently perfect, and so are all his judgements. The Bible clearly tells us his view on homosexuality. There are 2 scriptures I will just quote chapter and verse, and the other 2 scriptures I will type in. Old Testament: Leviticus, chapter 18, verse 22. Leviticus, chapter 20, verse 13. And in the New Testament: “Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God's Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God's Kingdom.” Taken from the Bible book of 1 Corinthians, verses 9 and 10. The theme of the Bible is God's Kingdom. Theocracy. A Government rule by Christ Jesus over all the earth. It actually explains who will NOT BE ALLOWED to be there on the earth when Jesus brings it back to the same state as in the garden of eden. And the other scripture is: “Likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.” Taken from the Bible book of Romans, chapter 1, verse 27. It's not my words, but God's own written words from his Bible. I so happen to have a copy of it in my own language. I don't judge anyone. But what I know is what I've read, and I firmly believe what I've read to be God's word, his feelings on certain matters. So, can a person be a homosexual and a practising Christian at the same time? We've just read the answer.

[@johneleven25]

@ around 12:00 Dr. Brown basically said he is agonised about gay christians and he wept for them but THE LETTER OF THE LAW just do not allow him to change position (I would call repent). Well that's exactly why and how the Jewish religious establishment murdered the Prince of Life!!! The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. They justified the murder on the basis of scripture ignoring the HEART. Brown's heart is for the gay community but the letter suppresses the spirit in him. Same error. The tragic error of the Bible worshipper. The Word became flesh, Jesus is not a Book but a living person who is now in the heart of men by the Holy Spirit. If we take the book which is only pointing to reality (Jesus) we will remain in error.

[@ZizYoubizHERE]

i respect both point of views when not spoken with ignorance but spoken with respect and understanding

[@itdadof3]

Something I want to add. I am not saying Matthew is not a Christian. I am saying that according to the word, he is to refrain from what are offenses to God and defintely violate several of the ten commandments. Now I am not saying I am perfect because I am not but we are not to embrace our sins and say "I cant help myself." While it upsets Christians that are gay (and non Christians) when someone says that living a gay lifestyle (not saying someone who has gay tendencies since there is a difference) is as bad as murder, lying, stealing, adultery, etc, according to God's laws, it is true. To God, all sin is an anathema, whether it is homosexuality, pedophila, murder, adultery, etc. Matthew's choice, if he wishes to please God, is to refrain from sex and focus on his relationship with God. As a divorced man, which I would prefer to remain married to my wife, is to remain celibate, which is challenging but can be done if God is more important than yourself. And that is the focus, is God more important than you?

[@dragonore2009]

To all atheist who might read this thread. Please note, you can NOT be gay and Christian at the same time. You can not use the "no true scottsman fallacy" it does not apply. Just because someone says they are a "christian" does not make them one, so therefor the 'no true scottsman fallacy' doesn't work in your argument. For example I can't say I am the employee of some company when I am not. In another words just saying you are a "christian' doesn't make you a "christian" anymore than it makes you an "employee" of a company. Thank you

[@LithiumDinosaur]

I'm gay, and the hurt and condemnation I feel from the people who know make me want to leave the church, and makes me wish I never believed.

[@SamOwenI]

but shouldn't the focus of faith in Christ be Christ, and not your feelings?

[@Lady_de_Lis]

@Pasty Baker Hey, I know this comment is old and this probably won't mean much from some random stranger, but I just wanted you to know that God loves you and will always have a place for you, even if many of the flawed human beings who follow him refuse to admit it. And there are many Christians out there who do not see you or others like you as inherently sinful for your sexuality, myself included. I know it might not seem that way a lot of the time (just going through this comment section has greatly disheartened me on so many levels) but I promise you, there's more love for you among God's people than it might at first appear. This is true even in the south. I would know, that's where I live. And even though it may seem such views are the minority in the Christian community, people can and do change. Many years ago, as a teenager, I used to ardently believe homosexuality was immoral as well, but I gradually came to change my view over time. And more and more Christians are doing the same everyday, too. From one internet stranger to another, God bless. I pray that God will bring brothers and sisters in Christ into your life who will cherish and support you.

[@Topg1]

I’m am sorry for those and the church that hurt you. Whether hetero/lgbtq, all of our sexuality is broken. The lie that is told to us ( hetero/lgbtq+) is that our sexuality is our identity.our ultimate goal is marriage. However, Christ said, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.”Jn3:16 It doesn’t mean you won’t have temptation but God will give you strength not to give into it.

[@saulgoo2334]

It makes me sick too. I have always been a Christian. I’m 40 now and I think this view will go the way of churches who condemned integration and mixed marriages. They’ll act like they were always affirming soon enough. Jesus knows you and loves you so much. Read “Repenting the Sin of Exclusion” it may encourage you. Just google it.

[@Fourfemur]

Great debate and appreciate both guests. I think it was very telling when matthew seemed it a show-stopper that someone could be forced to a life of celebacy. In this world there are far worse fates than not being able to have sex in pursuit of Christ. Perhaps we are too steeped in an oversexualized "me first" society to be able to look beyond "our needs". Blessings

[@junelledembroski9183]

Jindy Tachainovaska I agree. We should pray for him and people like him.

[@lisalee7108]

Excellent point!!! Also, Matthew is young with a more limited understanding than an older person would have.

[@MrMarcodarko]

Celibacy is a supernatural aspect in catholicism and I agree in that people just wanna have lots of crazy carnal sex....but be christian

[@jfish032]

Uh huh? Are you forced into a life of celibacy? If not please stop sharing your opinions.

[@theroguejester6412]

Not just sacrificing sex, but companionship, a partner for life, someone to talk to and share intimate thoughts with, someone to cuddle and kiss and laugh with, someone to share joys and sorrows with, someone to know and love and have and hold all the days of your life. That is a much steeper sacrifice than mere sex, steeper and more profound and more heartbreaking and lonely than any homophobic Christian ever seems to want to acknowledge.

[@ShadowWalker1971]

Dr. Michael Brown clearly and obviously won this debate hands down, no question about it. Matthew Vines, like everyone who came before him trying to justify homosexual relationships using the scriptures in The Holy Bible to do so, was just grabbing at straws and failed at making any credible or believable argument for his position, and like others who have come before him, he is obviously and clearly just trying to twist the position that the scriptures in The Holy Bible have on homosexuality around to fit his agenda, which is apparently to engage in a sinful lifestyle that is clearly defined as such in The Holy Bible, while simultaneously being a Christian, and it just simply does not work that way. Sorry Matthew Vines, but biblically speaking, you are wrong, and you lost this debate against Dr. Michael Brown epically.

[@leeduon8012]

+ShadowWalker1971 The problem is that The Bible is wrong about what being gay is. It's not a rejection of one's "natural" heterosexuality, it isn't a moral failing and it's not an extension of lasciviousness. Just ask any gay person who grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home.

[@ShadowWalker1971]

Oh I know, people who are truly homosexual can't help being that way, and they didn't choose to be that way any more than heterosexuals chose to be heterosexual. People who say homosexuals choose to be that way, and a lot of people who say it's a choice are fundamental Christians, are pretty fucking ignorant in my opinion. In my previous comment, I am just saying that, biblically speaking, there is no way for homosexuality to escape being a sin, so therefore, Dr. Brown won the debate in my opinion.

[@leeduon8012]

+ShadowWalker1971 Seems like a Pyrrhic victory, but point taken.

[@goldsmith001]

Before you can answer that question, you must define "what is a Christian?" What is a Christian?

[@charleschi843]

Unconditional love does not mean unconditional approval. Parents get this.

[@jayrocky9067]

I love that ..!!! God is good..!!!

[@emilykasey4034]

Well, apparently I don't exist. ... Should I use my powers of invisibility for good or for evil?

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

I think that there was no contest here. Dr. Brown did a fantastic job of exposing this. Well done Sir.

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

***** Not really what? Vine even admitted that the Bible does not say what he wants it to say. All through his presentation, he couldn't point to one single verse. If he wants to start his own religion, that's fine, but he can't base it on ours. It simply does not support him. P.S Any crude talk, and i'll walk away from you.

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

***** That's a lie. You're really talking about Roman Catholics. And I agree. Most of them are as deep as a puddle. But none of this changes the fact that the Bible DOES NOT support homosexuality so you can't judge a philosophy based on it's abuse. Or in other words, You can't blame the game of soccer based on the Hooligans that follow it. And finally, I agree with you. Just because you claim to be a "Christian" just like this Vines guy, does not make you one.

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

Brad Magyar Correct, only the wicked, protest God's judgement upon the wicked. And only a Satanic doctrine questions, "Did God really say?". (Gen chapter 3.)

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

***** Every single main stream translation of the Bible all translate those verses the same way. So I'm not seeing your point. 1 Cor 6:9 New International Version Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men New Living Translation Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, English Standard Version Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, New American Standard Bible Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, Holman Christian Standard Bible Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, International Standard Version You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, NET Bible Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, Aramaic Bible in Plain English Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males, GOD'S WORD® Translation Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, Jubilee Bible 2000 Know ye not that the unjust shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals American Standard Version Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, Darby Bible Translation Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men, English Revised Version Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, World English Bible Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, Young's Literal Translation have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

[@pretoshohmoofcguy6523]

***** So what? The church has had a long standing belief of rejecting homosexuality for the past 2 thousand years. Christianity took over the Roman and Greco Nations which had no problem with homosexual lifestyles. After these Nations became Christian, you must now answer why they went anti queer. The Greek speaking nations knew what these words meant.

[@daveka2011]

Matthew Vines in this debate sets up red herrings instead of staying on topic. The topic was, "Can gays be Christians?" To answer that question there is only book that is applicable, the Bible. Vines' arguments are the same tired and weak arguments that you hear time and again from advocates of homosexuality. Vine's arguments were weakest when he attempted to explain away the meaning of the six passages that directly speak to, and call homosexuality a sin. Finally, to me and others who watched the debate, Matthew seemed at times agitated and defensive, but he remained civil throughout the debate. Dr. Brown argues the Bible, so naturally his arguments are strong. Brown stayed on point throughout the debate. I applaud his statement that God calls us first to holiness, not heterosexuality. He's right when he says that God can do anything, therefore, he can deliver one from the sexual bondage of homosexuality. Brown is also right when he says that the Bible consists of over 31,000 verses, and not one of them is positive toward homosexuality. I appreciate the grace that Dr. Brown demonstrated during the debate. Brown was the consummate professional throughout the debate. Can someone engaged in unrepentant homosexual behavior be a Christian? The answer from the Bible is an absolute no. God does love us all, and wants to free us from the bondage of sin in our lives. "With man this may look impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt.19:26). But as God is love, he's also prepared to judge (Heb. 9:27). All humankind, past present and future, will be accountable to him on the day of judgment (1 Pet. 4:5).

[@xfauxx6]

you know, dr. brown brings up good points... but for the love of God just let Mathew speak a bit more and maybe answer some questions. It's irritating how this debate or conversation went on. It turned more into some talking-over one another argument where dr brown cant just shut up for a second long and let the other two even speak or simply announce a break or go back to what he said and can't even bother to answer Mathews's questions. Both are dodging questions and verses and are acting difficult. Maybe if they had more time it would have gone differently.

[@ipaporod]

I really don't get it!. If a practicing homosexual can be called a Gay Christian, why can't a person who is a liar and practice it can not be called a Christian Liar and still be considered a Christian?. Are they not both considered sins and equally wrong in the eyes of Yahweh?.Should we be selective for personal reasons on what is moral and a sin what is not ,even if Yahweh already placed His irrefutable/unchangeable judgment upon this issue?.Is it correct to let our own views and feeling to be placed above Yahweh's views and judgments?. I wish for a sincere homosexual to answer those questions sincerely and objectively!.

[@cramerlong2276]

***** You are wrong. Jesus said If you do not repent you will surely perish : The gift of salvation is free because belief in Jesus Christ is through repentance. After all Satan himself surely believes and knows that Jesus died and rose from the dead. Is Satan therefore saved?

[@cramerlong2276]

***** To be saved, a sinner simply needs to become "guilty" before God (Romans 3:19). Repentance is NOT forsaking one's actual sins, for that would be self-righteousness? Repentance is acknowledging that I am guilty of violating God's holy Law, and that I deserve to be punished in Hellfire for my own sins. Thus, realizing one's need for a Saviour. This is exactly what Galatians 3:24 teaches, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." A person who is convicted about their sin won't have the joyous attitude that they can continue living in sin and still go to Heaven. I would greatly doubt the salvation of anyone who rejoices that they can continue living in sin. This is one of the favorite arguments of Lordship Salvationists. The truth is that God holds believers accountable for their words and actions (Romans 14:12; 1st Peter 4:17; 2nd Corinthians 5:10). Repentance is a turn of mind. When you turn to Christ for forgiveness, you have just turned your back on sin. So you need to admit Homosexuality is a sin and seek God's forgiveness: The Bible makes it clear we must confess sin. How can you do that when people are telling you Homosexuals aren't sinning. You may always be attracted to men-But acting on it as though it's not sin is wrong. At the very least it's fornication: Turn to Christ for the love you are looking for.

[@cramerlong2276]

***** "For the ENTIRE LAW is fulfilled with this one; love your neighbor as yourself."Can you quote the verse that says this exactly how you quoted it? I'd like to see it

[@cramerlong2276]

***** I believe you : I am just sharing what I believe by reading other scripture that means- If you truly love your neighbor-None of the other commands should be broken: I don't know for sure if the Gay Christian is truly saved: It doesn't seem so. But we'll all give an account someday : They do seem to deny that> This idea that somehow God didn't understand the Modern day Homosexual when he inspired the Bible is blasphemous. There's always been the apostate in the church: The biggest reason I find that shows the Homosexual is wrong is their hateful attack on anyone who dares say so.

[@cramerlong2276]

***** If the Bible isn't infallible then it's not from God. If you believe there's error in the Bible then there isn't a discussion for or against what it says about Homosexual behavior:

[@mattbohlman6219]

Being 42 and still in the V-club is due to only thing. I fear God more than I fear abstinence.

[@jfish032]

🤔 What is your definition of "fear" in this context? Is it the same definition for both uses of the term or does it ultimately differ?

[@mattb7069]

Matt Bohlman I am more fearful of disobeying God than I am fearful of living in abstinence as a HETERO-sexual male. So whether it be heterosexual Christians or Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction, the idea that following Christ = fulfilling our sexual, natural desires in a manner prohibited by the Bible holds no water with me.

[@theroguejester6412]

Matt B Heterosexuals have the option of pursuing emotionally and sexually fulfilling relationships or remaining celibate. Forcing gay people into only one of those paths is not freedom or love, it’s discrimination.

[@SuperTwinklefingers]

Please read to the end. Will anyone respond to these comments? I hope so because the spirit of this discourse is the main issue I've faced on this topic. (I rarely comment because I don't think they're useful to communicate real feedback. But I pray this gets to Dr. Brown since he said he really cares about Christians suffering under this issue.) I have humbly been searching both sides of these two positions, and unfortunately, Dr. Brown brought a talking-down attitude that I have experienced when trying to have a humble conversation. He seemed defensive as do most traditional-viewing Christians in my experience, rather than trusting God is there to protect and moderate. An honest debate needs to be a search for truth, which requires (1) listening to what the other person is saying, (2) directly responding to it, (3) and not being afraid the other person is going to one-up you. Matthew Vines never talked over Dr. Brown. Therefore, I feel sorry for him. Dr. Brown didn't answer questions directly and proceeded then to say what he thought. Furthermore, he attacked Matthew's motivations for presenting these questions at all. Why would a struggling Christian come to Dr. Brown for advice and help? They wouldn't because they could expect to not be heard, and I think that means that Dr. Brown showed a poor example for the evangelist. This was a debate on the questions that Matthew Vines brings to the table. And I don't think this was an honest debate because those questions weren't clearly addressed. It takes two quiet people to have an honest debate. Even if Matthew's conclusions are not valid, this was not represented because he was not addressed. As I see, this is the problem with reformed Evangelical churches today. Dr. Brown presents an example of not listening, attacking, dismissing, and preaching at someone. People considering the less popular side (that of Matthew Vines) have heard Dr. Brown's message. But their questions about the other side (Matthew Vines) aren't heard and aren't directly addressed. Therefore, anger and lack of trust in people like Dr. Brown results. Conclusion: the example Dr. Brown presents promotes anger and resentment towards those who are in a vulnerable place. This drives people away from the church. I think this is an important point to make.

[@edelsmith1138]

Cannot agree with you at all. Mathew Vines is misinterpreting scriptures to accommodate his sin. Christ came to redeem us from sin , not to assist us in it. we must repent, (change our mind).Stop doing what is wrong and ask God’s help and strength to start a new way of living. This does apply to all sin, of course. Without repentance we are not children of the living God. He cannot tolerate sin in our lives.

[@donnahanna10565]

How come she only let's Dr. Brown talk. And Every time Mr. Vines starts to talk it is always seems to be time for a break ?

[@YophiSmith]

ramonesgirl1 the very first break was cutting off Dr. Brown

[@sandraestlow6861]

Why are all of Dr. Brown's videos on KZbin unavailable. All I get is the exclamation point?

[@johannesvangend2598]

Consider Rom 1:28, “Furthermore, because they did not think it worthwhile to keep knowing God fully, God delivered them to degraded minds to perform acts that should not be done.” This has reference to Rom 1:18-, “For God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodliness and wickedness of those who in their wickedness suppress the truth…” When God breathed a breath of life into that body ‘formed from dust of the earth’ Adam became a ‘living soul’; his ‘spirit’ was holy. However, after his eating of the forbidden fruit his spirit was no longer ‘holy’; it became contaminated and so also his descendants Rom 5:-19, “For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one Man's obedience many people will be made righteous.” Jesus came and died that death that Adam should have died; one is either still ‘in Adam’, a sinner, or, ‘in Jesus’, righteous. For this reason Joh 3:5-, “Jesus answered, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto thee, “Except one be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of the God!” That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.’” One cannot be born again unless one first dies and receives a holy spirit Rom 6:3-, “For surely you know that when we were baptized into union with Christ Jesus, we were baptized into union with his death. By our baptism, then, we were buried with Him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life… [Rom 8:9-] But ye are not for flesh but for Spirit, if indeed a Spirit of a God dwells in you; but if any one has not a Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. But if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness.” Born again people are all members of Jesus’ body sustained by his spirit 1Co 12:-13-, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” Translators have clouded the issue because of their understanding of the gospel message. Act 19:1- is a good example, “And it happened in the time Apollos was at Corinth, Paul was passing through the higher parts to Ephesus. And finding certain disciples, he said to them, ‘Have you received a holy Spirit since you believed?’ And they said to him, ‘We did not so much as hear whether a holy Spirit is.’ And he said to them, Then to what were you baptized? And they said, ‘To John's baptism…’ Now, Paul addressing born again people, writes, [Eph 5:-31-], “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they the two shall be unto one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” The two of them, without the help of their parents, produce a new ‘genetic code’; a DNA peculiar to themselves. The ‘church’ being the ‘bride’ of Christ have this hope as is written Php 3:-20-, “For our citizenship exists in heaven, from which also we eagerly await for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body, that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself.” The point is a Christian marriage is between a man and a woman. It represents ‘Christ and the church’; the bringing forth; having children. 1Co 6:-11-, “And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

[@yxvm]

As a believer who reads the Bible its quite clear the Bible is hereto-centric and male-centric. If you have any issues with that then I suggest re-evaluating your soul to either accept or don't. Its that simple. (theoretically speaking)

[@christyler6234]

michaeljkruger.com/was-early-christianity-hostile-to-women/

[@yxvm]

nice article. First off, my apologies, it wasn't my intention to imply hostility towards women. I can't find a single verse where Christian males should be hostile to women believers. My point is that the Bible does surround itself with male superiority as in taking lead in spiritual affairs.

[@christyler6234]

+Ytany Vallecillo I can agree that the Bible puts men at the forefront in spiritual affairs as that is what God ordained. Men and women have certain roles just as the Father, the Son, and the Spirit have certain roles, too. Just as each of the roles in the Godhead are equal there is an authority that the Father has over the Son and the Spirit, this is what we see with men and women, husbands and wives and there is an equality there too, but roles to be played.

[@yxvm]

While I don't subscribe to trinitarian theology. We do see explicit statements of roles for Husband and Wife. (Col. 3:18,19)

[@christyler6234]

I'm interested in why you deny the triune nature of God. Do you not believe that Jesus is God incarnate or is it that you take a more modalistic view of God? Either way, how do you support your view in scripture?

[@nocent904]

Soon enough! Boy, boy, boy! Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

[@bulldogsbob]

Vines like all false prophets has nothing in scripture to support his claims, Brown a true man of God does.

[@reference12]

Dr Michael Brown wiped the floor with Matthew Vines but in such a compassionate way, Vines was as poor as the revisionist lies he promulgates, he was rude, couldn't form an argument and relied on emotional irrational anecdote after annecdote. With truth on his side Dr Brown walked it.

[@halliesquidward5334]

I’m bi.... no matter what I do I’m still bi. I can only date the opposite sex. But I’m still bi. I’ve prayed about it and god made me who I am, so I need to learn who I am and accept my self. Yeah it’s wrong but judging and hating on gays bisexuals and lesbians are just as wrong.

[@SamOwenI]

So does that mean God made you to have both a male and a female partner at the same time? Please explain your answer.

[@Topg1]

God still have mercy on you. When you turn your life to Jesus he gives you a new identity. The temptations will still be there. When you keep you eyes on him, what he has is greater.