Dr. Michael Brown vs. Dr. James White on Predestination, Election, and the Will of God

[@natalianegritto]

Dear Brother Michael Brown, you have no idea how I have been blessed by this debate- it has impacted, strengthened, and confirmed my faith in such a deep manner. Praise God!!!

[@jasonsherwood7539]

I LOVE watching genuinely intelligent, passionate, and RESPECTFUL debate! These are two men I respect very much. To God be the glory!

[@ok__6441]

Jason Sherwood Still all these big names debate, and makes no sense.I'm confused if all them have Holy Spirit why can't He lead them to real truth? Of course some one is right and some one is not. BUT why can't Holy spirit show who's not right?

[@ToluwalopeDFaks]

@@ok__6441 I think both of them are right to an extent. You said why can't the Holy Spirit lead them to the truth, I think because we still know in part, we'll know in full when we meet Christ

[@JaneSmith0709]

Dr. Brown's opening statement! - Mic drop!

[@blusheep2]

Agreed. I'm not through the whole debate yet but Dr. Brown's opening is much better than Dr. Whites. White just simply says that God at times intervenes in men's choices and then applies that to everybody.

[@peterjongsma2754]

Dr Brown understands God's heart. I like Dr Brown. I love Dr Brown's God. I was raised Calvinist. Had to leave and find another Church.

[@Drew32296]

I found out my church are Calvinists recently and it broke my heart. I wanna leave because of that. It’s just so hard because I met so many nice people there who I love talking to and fellowshipping with when I’m there

[@jesusislord4029]

I agree with Dr. Brown in this subject.

[@WowBro120]

I love how both of these men during the cross examination ask questions to truly gain understanding from each other's position. Very respectful & I admire it!

[@beowulf.reborn]

I was raised in a home where my father is Calvinist, I attended a Church with a Reformed Pastor, went to a school where many if not most of the teachers were Reformed and attended Youth Groups at Reformed Churches. I even labored alongside a Reformed Pastor to plant a church, and he gave me books on Reformed Theology which I studied. The vast majority of Sermons I have listened to online (thousands upon thousands of hours worth) are by Reformed Preachers, and the vast majority of teachings are by Reformed teachers. And yet I am 100% persuaded by the Scriptures that Reformed Theology is unbiblical. I have tried my hardest to reconcile the two, but I can't. I have been brought to tears over this many times and spent month after month in deep depression trying to get the two to align. I can't. People want to say I had presuppositions towards a non-Calvinist Position, but I didn't. Given my childhood, my background, the teachings I received, and the fellowship, etc. I should be a Calvinist! Unless of course, God preordained otherwise?

[@sonofjay817]

...or maybe its because God's truth is stronger than any deception as long as our heart stays honest, open, and humble. Given your personal story, I'd love to get your take on the comment I left on this video. I'll paste it here so don't have to search for it. Thanks! "Personally, I'm still not settled that this should be viewed as an in house debate. Far be it from me to judge any individual's spiritual condition, but we are to judge teaching, itself, as to whether it be truth or heresy. From what I understand, we judge Mormonism to be outside of orthodoxy primarily because they believe enough false things about Jesus to be effectively a false Jesus that they teach, a different Jesus. Well, what about describing a God that is the originator of evil and creates the majority of people with the purpose of torturing them for all eternity to show the glory of His wrath? Is this not a different God? Is that merely a subtle difference in nuance in the interpretation of God's character? It feels pretty major to me." I do realize that Calvinists would take major issue with how I characterized their views, but for the life of me, I don't see how the way they phrase it differently makes it effectively any different from how I phrased it.

[@nickspitzley8539]

You say reconcile the two. The two what?

[@beowulf.reborn]

@@nickspitzley8539 Reformed Theology and the Scriptures.

[@ElficGuy]

I'd say you had Norse pagan predispositions... lol

[@ThePreacherman9]

Watch Leighton flowers he's an ex Calvinist who teaches why Calvinism false his teachings helped me leave behind the lies of Calvinism

[@LFTV]

Robert, please remember that we don't allow personal attacks in our posts, and this one to ssssjjjj1 is unneeded. Thanks!

[@blairenoel]

This debate brought me out of Calvinism!

[@TheAbsoluteTruth334]

Me too!

[@christianjohnston4138]

Praise God!

[@guillermoherrera697]

After searching and reading the scriptures I don’t believe in Calvinism. Being a Calvinist doesn’t save anyone. Nobody knows who is saved or not because it’s impossible to know who is elected

[@Dan-ch8kv]

Hey brother, this debate brought me to Calvinism! 😃

[@christines5430]

This is one of the best discussions/debates that I have watched . Sound scripturally based arguments, delivered respectfully and graciously from two men of God who I greatly respect.. Still mulling through all the arguments..

[@larrytruelove7112]

I’m neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I find Brown more persuasive.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

What is the middle ground between the two. I rejected Calvinism early on in my walk and likely lean to arminianism, but never knew there was a label for it. Seems there's a label for everything, but I just call it Christianity.

[@larrytruelove7112]

Sainte Jeanne d'Arc The middle ground is a continuum. I’m not an evangelical Lutheran, but one I know online claims to reject Calvinism. I don’t understand his view. He does accept a few tenets that Calvinism does. To me he sounds Calvinistic. I grew up Baptist but I’m not a Baptist now. I do generally accept the Baptist view of volition. I believe God assists a man to understand that he is a sinner and assists a man to believe. However, a man may still choose to accept or to reject the Lord Jesus. There are various views of Romans 9. One view is that God chooses to have a people. We may choose to be a part of that people through faith. I don’t know if that helps. These comment sections don’t often lend themselves to details. You can look up my name on FB Messenger if you care to follow up. I live in the Dallas Texas area. Leighton Flowers has a number of you tube videos which describe the subject in great detail. It’s called Soteriology 101.

[@JunMitra1977]

@@larrytruelove7112 How does God assist man to believe? Supporting Bible passages please.

[@clintfortner5857]

“The truth is not in the middle, and not in one extreme; but in both extremes.” - Charles Simeon Grateful for both of them. May God bless both their ministries richly for His glory.

[@ChristsDisciples]

Fire quote

[@TheAbsoluteTruth334]

This has thrilled my heart and strengthened my faith 1000 percent! I have never seen a debate that smashes the tenents of Calvinism so thoroughly and completely. I believe both of these men will be in heaven but only one of them truly understands the heart of God. Arminian arguments unfortunately normally come from emotion and are man centered. They normally cant be defended systematically and exegetically. God bless you Dr Brown. You have no idea how this helped me.

[@jenex5608]

You need to read historic Arminian belief

[@JuneTheMan]

Their last names are colors

[@GuyFromRedBank]

+JuniorMuzic And they are both doctors.

[@JuneTheMan]

+Cougar12 I don't understand how that applies to my comment. I wasn't disrespecting them it was just a general observation and I was being slightly facetious.

[@GuyFromRedBank]

JuniorMuzic I know that. I thought your first comment was funny.

[@JuneTheMan]

+Cougar12 Oh.. well thank you I thought you were thinking that I was insulting them haha

[@theoffensivegamer9943]

right

[@lawrencesmith4454]

Dr Brown. I greatly appreciate your efforts to correct the misconceptions about predestination and election. Your knowledge and wisdom are refreshing in a time when grace has been redefined and corrupted. It is very hard to read the words of Jesus and get a Calvinist view unless you have been programmed with it. As one raised a Southern Baptist it took many years for the Lord to finally reveal the truth to me. The Calvinist position makes it impossible to reconcile the verses they take out of context with the full council of God's word. Thank you for making a stand..on this and other issues.

[@shepherdsword]

Total respect for Dr Michael Brown

[@Tangle2Brook]

I have been a KZbin fan for a long time, but more than ever now to be able to see wonderful debates like this.

[@LookToCreator]

It is a Universal Invitation!!!! Open to the whole world... The Spirit and The Bride say , "Come!" When you turn back, God graciously forgives. Taste and see that the LORD is Good! Thank you Dr Brown the LORD Our God is With you!!

[@regelemihai]

Just for a second, if we can forget about our differences, I would please ask you for a prayer on behalf of my brother's good friend. He had passed away suddenly just a few hours ago. If you could please pray for all those who grieve him today I would appreciate it; no matter our differences, we're still brothers in the Lord.

[@gabrielcalderon3]

Dr. White held his own, big respect to him! But Dr. Brown came out like a roaring lion during his opening statement and smoked Dr. White’s boots 😆

[@JoeLampshire74]

100%

[@frankgleon]

Absolutely brother, absolutely.

[@JP-ul7tp]

The bald guy smoked that fucken moron.

[@mikejr8604]

😂 Dr brown 🔥🔥🔥

[@zerubbablestranger6970]

I assume that your presupposition is Arminianism then?

[@gabzgroove3088]

The truth is that both of their arguments support each other the proving the unity of the Word of God. God bless them both

[@magdalenasalas9467]

I love how they both added humor into the debate. I stand more on Dr White's position since scripture does teach we are dead in our sins and no one is seeking after God. I believe God had a plan before the creation and all for His own purpose and glory. I however love Dr. Brown and love how he is reaching the LGBT community, praise God for both these men. This topic is secondary shall it not divide us and let us keeping loving one another like Christ has commanded us. Grace and peace.

[@galaxy2699]

I stand somewhere in the middle. I don't think we should try to figure out the secrets that only belong to God. I do believe I'm saved though and I can't lose my salvation even if I run away.

[@galaxy2699]

+zanmirrob Granted. But do you know how you can be sure that you're not gonna forsake your salvation? A simple prayer will do. Ask God to grab your hand and drag you into Heaven, even if He has to give you cancer in order to humble you. Problem solved ;)

[@galaxy2699]

+zanmirrob So don't get me wrong, I don't completely agree with Calvinists. The problem with Calvinists, as we see in this video is they say the elect have nothing to do with their salvation, which makes election, an arbitrary selection, but then they refuse to accept that it's arbitrary, and they go on and try to mud the water by saying it's according to God's will ignoring the rest of the Scripture where God says He has given man freedom to choose between life and death. Calvinists are the reason many people laugh at us because they contradict themselves like crazy. The issue is Calvinists read too much into God's sovereignty and Arminians read too much into human's free will.This is why I lean more towards Molonism because Molonism seems to be the best solution for reconciling God's sovereignty and human free will and it's the only doctrine that glorifies God. Arminianism makes God look weak because He fails to save some because we don't get to preach the Gospel to them and Calvinism makes God look like a monster who randomly chooses some and sends the rest to Hell and that somehow glorifies Him...

[@yeshua9323]

+magdalena salas Calvanism Is a false gospel

[@GeneralPadron]

+zanmirrob Amen!

[@vtr37]

Both did a good job. God bless them both and God help us all. Respect for both sides and both sides are our brothers and sisters.

[@chistofferthimfors1729]

I just want to say thank you so much for this debate and the love and respect you showing for each other but at the same time making clear your differences! Even thou it hasn't change what I believe, it has really made me think about things I haven't thought so much about at all before, so I'm feeling more secure in where I stand but at the same time I reach out to know more because of your what you two demonstrated here. The nice thing is that I doesn't brings pride, it doesn't create insecurity but just a longing to truly know God as He is...!!! Again thank you for the great examples of brothers in faith with different views you show to the body of Christ and to the world, a body and world that's splits up to easily over issues or don't bother to know more and just have an opinion. Now I have heard for myself and I'm thankful. Thanks brothers!! Shalom

[@rjsledz]

Excellent debate, Dr. Brown!

[@AndyHayner]

What a great debate! I so appreciate the demeanor of both of these men of God. Thank you for interacting with the Scriptures and one another with so much integrity and respect and allowing us to benefit from your discussion/debeate. Bless you brothers!

[@MrCuevas01]

Two really good brothers in the faith. Awesome debate.

[@gideondavid30]

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as causing something to occur.

[@SpotterVideo]

What has come to be known as "Calvinism" came out of Augustine's effort to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the infants had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child. This fact is revealed by Dr. Ken Wilson's research on the writings of Augustine. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJ-yfoKIfLJlh9k .

[@SamOwenI]

Bear in mind what James said: foreknowledge here cannot possibly mean "God knew what people were going to choose to do". God "foreknew" people. It's a relational knowing of future people. God knows and foreknows people relationally in scripture. That's why in the context it must be to do with choosing to be in relationship with people. Again, it could not possibly mean God learnt what people would do in the future, and then based his predestination on what he learnt. It doesn't make sense for it to mean that, but you and Dr Brown assume it without justification. You have to make an argument, not just assume it.

[@sfwisdom6673]

@@SamOwenI why does he have to learn what they will do why cant he just know what they will do?

[@SamOwenI]

@@sfwisdom6673 God knowing is not the same as us knowing. Remember, he's the creator of humans. He precedes us. So for God to know about humans when he has not created them means that that knowledge either exists in his nature (and therefore people are not autonomous) or outside of his nature. If that information is outside of his nature then it either exists from eternity with God (like the molinists believe) or it begins to exist once God creates, and then God learns the information. The only consistent version of that last option is really open theism, so God learns once autonomous people make decisions. But the point being, humans are created. So if a human being is autonomous, their future cannot be determined by God's nature. I would also repeat the point about Romans 8. It says God foreknew a people. It could not possibly mean God foreknew those who would freely choose to believe in the context. It simply says foreknew. It's a relational knowing, rather than knowing information - remember, God has foreknowledge about everybody. But he foreknows only a specific people, and those are the people who are predestined, called, justified and glorified.

[@sfwisdom6673]

@@SamOwenI ima pray on this thanks for the explanation definitely appreciate it. I dont see how God being all knowing takes away from humans autonomy. There could be multiple outcomes of how reality plays out but there is only one way it will play out. I believe man has free will but it is within the bounds of reality and Gods sovereignty is greater than mans. With that being said I believe God creates man with the ability to freely accept his offer of salvation while also being unable to foil his plans for salvation.

[@kellygrace83]

Super awesome to see a predestination debate in which both sides remain respectable and professional both giving grace to one another. This did make me glorify God in seeing the friendship shared between these two men who hold to very different opinions. Very refreshing.

[@nadhamd3357]

I am neither reformed nor non reformed. I am transformed in Jesus Christ!

[@PresbyterianPaladin]

I would love to see a 3 part group conversation on reasonable faith, alpha and omega ministries and askdrbrown disscussing calvinism, armininism and molinism. That would be epic!

[@richvictorynow]

great job on the weight loss, Dr. Brown!!

[@RyanRufusNNM]

Great stuff Dr. Brown. I listened to the whole video. I love your take on this subject! I think I agree with all of your interpretations of scripture and understanding of God in this video. I think the greatest part of this video and debate is your honor for each other. Many blessings to you both!

[@jerikiahunter4697]

Honestly I love both these debaters, I’m not a Calvin, I just profess to be a Christian by the grace of God, with no man made titles.

[@jerikiahunter4697]

John Lawson you have any scriptural support for that arbitrary claim?

[@jerikiahunter4697]

John Lawson, Calvinism is a man made label, Christian is actually a biblical name for “followers” of Christ. Acts 11:26 NASBS [26] and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

[@toyosioyejobi309]

That's the way. That way you can continue to grow in truth without the closed framework of man

[@Benyoopa]

loved the respectful attitude of the participants to one another! Definitely believe that Dr. Brown has a more balanced hermeneutic that takes into account more of what God says about himself. Dr. White looks at a smaller number of texts and tends to overemphasize some characteristics of God while underemphasizing others, particularly the fullness of God's love. It's great to see opposing views expressed in love and respect on a subject that does not determine salvation - the determining factor of eternity where all questions will be finally answered.

[@dohnlabalaba9470]

I am a Seventh day Adventist and I love your inspiring debate. Thank you for sharpening each others faith with minor theological differences and Christ is lifted up. Amen!

[@jacobforaker6222]

I highly recommend studying your Bible more if you’re a SDA. They are great people overall, but are highly unbiblical in many areas. They borderline a cult.

[@dohnlabalaba9470]

@@jacobforaker6222 To read the Bible and to let it interpret it self is the best method. Those who refuse to follow God's instruction are actually cult. Seventh day Adventist scholars have accurately put together the chronology of the whole scriptures of which yours could not. Christian scholars have rushed towards our findings. Thank you Jesus!

[@IvanAgram]

I am a secessionist and a non Calvinist who believes in security of salvation :) I love both of these guys :) Would love to be in their company.

[@fellowshipiskey]

Dr Brown awesome Job. love the Debate.

[@sandmanarmstrong8673]

Awesome man has a choice we are not robots....Thank you Dr. Brown

[@rainbomikie]

+Sandman Armstrong You can be very grateful that dr. brown is quite wrong. If the choice were up to men then absolutely no one would ever be saved. Romans 3:10-11 is very clear that no one understands and that no one seeks God. If God does not elect an individual to salvation then they will never come. Salvation is of the Lord and I fear for both you and dr. brown that you do not realize this obvious truth. In fact you both fight against it.

[@sandmanarmstrong8673]

S. Nathan You can believe Calvin's doctrine but it is not Jesus Christ doctrine. Nothing more to say.

[@rainbomikie]

Obviously you have never read the doctrine of Jesus Christ. In John 6:44 He stated, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." In John 6:65 He stated, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Sadly you would rather believe the doctrine of Michael Brown then the Doctrine of our God. What more can I say to such as yourself?

[@Dante-vf4sd]

+S. Nathan "No man can COME TO ME, except the Father which hath sent me draw him". I believe that its a sense of symbiosis that we both interact in. God does the saving, He alone makes everything possible and He does draw us to Him because of His love and mercy but we do interact with His drawing us to Him. He doesn`t force us toward Him, He loves us to Him which includes at times chastisement. In John 15 Jesus tells us to "remain in me as i also remain in you". There is a certain level of action on our own part that must be given.

[@sandmanarmstrong8673]

***** If I be lifted up I will (draw) ALL MEN UNTO ME. He is and has drawn all men to himself ...you still have choose HIM

[@paulpaluciano6162]

These debates are pure gifts to the mind and spirit. Gratitude to the colorful duo in Mr. Brown & Mr. White. Both men I have been reading and listening to for the past 6 years. In my personal case, I believe God sovereignly convicted me of my sin, and assuredly moved me towards Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, rather than I showing any special merits (i.e. some modesty or realization of own limitations, etc.)... "Giving God a chance..." seems such a strange term, and wrong. On the other hand, talking to some of my unbelieving friends who are so bound on not having anything to do with Christ, insisting on solving all their problems (some filled with much sorrow and pain) by themselves. I can't imagine that the Almighty Father specifically preordained their hearts to remain as stone until the end. My limited mind still clings to the idea of them making their choice with some limited, weak free will. Not "full", unaffected free will by any means: as I was, they also are lost in iniquity, bathed in open sin- that is the proper first condition, of course. At the same time then again, I strongly feel that God chose me, showed mercy to me, not the other way around. I met genuine believers who had quite an undramatic path to God; they maybe wouldn't say that they take Him in their life for granted, but they would go as far as saying "I gave God a chance, and He managed to convince me, on the 4th try". The more wicked a believer was before he was born again and saved, and the more this poor soul made the impression to others as being the most reprobate rebel against God, after being saved, this person would definitely feel, it was ALL God's doing, His grace, His love, and His mercy, that saved him, not anything on the side of this particular sinner. And then faith and faithfulness, beating in a renewed heart. God bless you all in Jesus' mighty Name.

[@wserthmar8908]

I'd agree. I didn't choose God, it definitely wasn't my merit. On the other hand, why me, what about all other people? And have I ever been truly saved? It's very possible indeed Hell is awaiting me

[@gribwitch]

This enthralling debate is like two heavyweight boxers going fifteen rounds with each other. Both respect each other's reputation and abilities, and both are ducking and weaving, trading telling blows. The audience watching on, are enjoying every minute. In my opinion, both are still standing ( "dazed and bruised" ) at the end of it. It's a points decision. And the winner is.......? ( Maybe a re-match is required ? Get your tickets NOW ! )

[@DjSostre7]

Were you high when you wrote this? Lol Youre an idiot.

[@lutherkayban2788]

On the point of Calvinism and irresistible grace, this quote sums it up quite will. "If Christ provides only a part of our salvation leaving us to provide the rest, then we are still hopeless under the load of sin" -gresham machan

[@stonefly4894]

"For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." I think that means anybody can be saved. Don't you??

[@GojoTheHonoredOne9]

Not everyone will do that due to the fact of Total Depravity. Inward Saving Grace must be imparted upon the Sinner for them to be Brought by the Calling of God to Salvation which is decreed in relation by the Act of Election by God.

[@gaurabrai4063]

Amen

[@paulpano7750]

God can possibly do that, but the reality is and we have to face it it: he has already chosen those who will be saved.

[@busybody1474]

@@paulpano7750 why does Jesus command us to share the gospel if he already knows who will be saved?

[@calvinpeterson9581]

Yes!

[@microfrogyt]

Thank you Dr. Brown for your ministry, as well as Dr. White for his. You've both helped me and countless other believers in our walk upon the Way. Although I don't agree with some of what you believe (such as what you've debated in this video, as well as your Continuationist/Charismatic beliefs), I sincerely thank God for men like you. I've heard you go into detail about your evangelism to Jews, being Jewish yourself. Although I'm not Jewish (although some people seem to think I am from the way that I look, lol), the Jews are a particular group of people that I want to minister to greatly. Not because they're especially special over anybody else, but because they were God's chosen people but became apostate. So again, I thank God for you and Dr. White, and I thank you both for your hard work in glorifying God and edifying and educating believers in the truths of Christianity. Though we as believers may differ on various theological points, at the end of the day, we can all sit together at the Lord's table and worship our most wonderful Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

[@chrisoliverdelacruz5347]

Dr James: Thank you Dr Brown: You're welcome (laughters) haha...so nice

[@opfipip3711]

Thank you Dr. Brown. After your first 25 minutes all was said.

[@KaptainKuba]

I love this debate!!! Ive heard it 3 times already, To some extent I think calvanism makes sense, its just that its dangerous to think some are elected and not others, when witnessing

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

What is the point in witnessing if people are just predestined anyway. It means a tyrant God is just playing nasty little games w/ us. Calvinism is nasty.

[@ShepherdMinistry]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 the point is God commands us to. We also don’t know who the elect are so we preach to everyone. God uses His word to spread faith. God bless, SM

[@Drew32296]

@@saintejeannedarc9460it’s a doctrine of devils

[@John-bl1db]

Wow, you have just smashed Calvinism. God bless you brother.

[@davidsteinart]

So much of Calvinism is philosophy. They call it "application" but it amounts to drawing conclusions which are built upon a foundation of philosophical extrapolations from the text which fly in the face of what has been clearly revealed about the nature and character of God.

[@mikeparker840]

Great comment! Also I would add that it presupposes a different characterization of God from the 16th century where it began. Early church fathers would never be a 5 point Calvinist.

[@mikeparker840]

Best debate against Calvinism I've ran across coming from a former Calvinist for a decade.

[@AlanaL3]

I left Calvinism 2 years ago after 17 years...I can’t believe this was out all this time...if only I’d seen it 8 years ago! :)

[@mikeparker840]

@@AlanaL3 ikr! And wow you got me beat in years 😁. I was pretty hardcore would argue for Calvinism anytime I had an opportunity but it was always with love. I tried to persuade with kindness and truth was my motive. God forgive me for being wrong for so long. This debate here is not what changed my mind in whole but it was a stepping stone and lots of other proofs I discovered. The early church fathers had the most authentic and authoritative proofs I concluded with especially knowing some of them were disciples of the Apostles taught directly from them or disciples of the disciples of the Apostles. God bless you and yours on your journey! Amen

[@AlanaL3]

@@mikeparker840 I was a new wife and new mom so I was consumed with keeping house and taking care of babies. I never really dug into Calvinism in that long and busy season. Plus I was in a beautiful reformed bubble that just fed the certainty that we were “right.” After a dear friend challenged me about a John Piper sermon I posted on FB 2 years ago, thanksgiving weekend, I revisited every point. The rest is history. I have felt every emotion!! Blind sided is probably the hardest feeling I’ve had to deal with, but in the end I’m just thankful to God for helping me see my error and proclaim the accurate character of God to anyone who will listen!! ❤️ He is truly good, loving, gracious, merciful, and trustworthy. Every human can say that about Him, not just “the elect.” God bless you brother and Praise God! He is just amazing:)

[@mikeparker840]

@@AlanaL3 thank you sincerely for that incredible testimony, sounds alot like my journey. I became discouraged for a long time after learning I was so wrong on Calvinism but like you it's because a gracious loving God who showed my stubborn heart the truth. Thank you also for those words of encouragement. God bless you and your family sincerely. Amen.

[@ShepherdMinistry]

@@AlanaL3 Alana can you answer me this question? What the difference between a believer and an unbeliever given they both read Gods word? Why does one have faith and the other doesn’t? God bless, SM

[@crisjones8773]

Calvinism is confusing. To me, it makes my God a monster, for by necessity it makes Him the author of sin, that which He abhors. It saddens me that there is not more agreement between brethren concerning this. I appreciate the spirit of love in which these debates have been held.

[@Jonathan-mr8pz]

Cris Jones truly they paint another god of the Bible

[@wadecalvert457]

I grew up in a freewill Baptist church my whole life I was not a christian. When I was saved by the grace of God at my house not in a church,I found me in my sin I didnt look for him out of the evil nature of my flesh so God found me. I do not believe that we can be good enough to pull ourselves out of our fleshly desires and say okay Lord I think I will follow you now. Tbe bible clearly states no one is good no not one.

[@j.p.s.8188]

Read ALL of Romans 9

[@Ancientknowledge]

God knew Satan would rebel but he used Satan as a lesson for his creation to show them what the opposite of God is, evil. God is good, he is life, Satan is the opposite of life, he is death. God had to show his creation what good is because they did not know what it really is until the opposite was introduced.

[@albertzadourian2996]

Dear Cris Jones . to understanding Calvinism you should study SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY ,then it gonna be so sweet

[@ipaporod]

My 2 favorite debaters, Dr.Brown and Dr.White!.On this topic I have to go with Dr.Michael Brown because for God to be a just God he must give equal opportunity to every soul he created to be able to take advantage of God's grace and be saved from God's wrath through Jesus atonement in the cross.You don't need to be a scholar or a theologian to know this simple gospel truth.Same thing happened with Nicodemus, he was a member of the Sanhedrin and he new God's law from A-Z and yet he did not understand how can a man be able to be born again spiritually.You see, intellectualism does not equates spiritual wisdom!

[@sykoman31]

The fact that so many people could believe in Calvinism breaks my heart.

[@jonnyw82]

The fact that there are calvinists is fascinating. They construct an evil God and then profess their love for Him and revel in his "justice". It's quite sickening, it may be a mental illness actually, feel sorry for them.

[@jonnyw82]

To be clear, I am not a fan of either views, arminianism and Calvinism, but I find Calvinism to be especially unpalatable. You make good points, however, that the existence of evil is a problem for the arminists as well. Again, that's why I reject armininsim (cant figure out how to spell that darn word) as well. The fact that I suffer (and I suffer FAR les than most in the history of the world) so that God may "accomplish His will" is something I find to be a deal-breaker in taking the bible seriously. CAN God make me suffer to accomplish His will? Yes. WOULD He? No. If we were put on this earth and made to suffer, the suffering must be primarily for OUR gain, not God's. This is the only way that immense human suffering can be justified, in my opinion. A God that would make His creation suffer in order to accomplish his will is not a good God. Surely, an All-Powerful God could have figured out a better way of accomplishing his purpose without human suffering. Especially when, in the biblical understanding, we had no choice of weather or not we'd be born into this terrible (terribly beautiful) world.

[@cmdaniels1986]

No problem, the Reformers and ALL MAJOR revivals throughout History was started by Calvinists. Arminians gave us the following: Benny Hinn Altar Calls Sinners Prayer False converts

[@JohnPaluska]

The fact that we believe in a God who is so loving that He changes our hearts to accept Him despite us constantly disobeying Him and sinning against Him makes you sad? How is it sad to believe that God loves the world so much, that instead of letting all the world go to hell, He sent His son to provide a way of salvation. However, God does much more than that. HIs salvation is so personal, so intentional, that He changes our hearts and impels us to become believers so that we may be saved from the punishment we deserve. How, exactly, is that belief breaking your heart?

[@Revmostrite]

thats a lie the you just told

[@riadozee]

Well done Dr. Brown .

[@nateschafer7326]

If I'm drowning in the ocean (incapable of saving myself) and a rescue boat arrives, am I to receive the credit for saving myself simply because I reached out to accept the hand of the rescuer?

[@Vader-xl1bl]

2 fine men of the Christian faith. Thank you for posting this, Dr. Brown. Favorited, and I will come back with a notebook. :) I am a life-long part of the Assemblies of God fellowship, and have been studying these views, and lean toward Calvinism in terms of soteriology. You and Dr. White are so gracious. Looking forward to continued growth in Christ. Blessings.

[@bobbyfree5027]

the gospel invitation is for ALL.right in scripture.clear as day.

[@Skipadyboi]

I love this two born again christians having a healthy debate over second circle issues. It's beautiful.

[@alexguild]

Dr. White is such a blessing of biblical faithfulness..

[@UniteAgainstEvil]

🤣😂🤣

[@DonMan81]

They both made great arguments for their position and I love both of these men. They are great examples of godly men serving the Lord and doing good works in His name to reach the lost. We as Christians, may never fully agree on topics like this, on this side of eternity but I pray that we can continue to have these type of discussions in humbleness, graciousness and respect. As long as the deity, humanity, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the foundation of our faith then we all are brothers and sisters in Him. All these other theological and philosophical questions are peripheral. Like Paul says "I came to you knowing nothing else but Jesus Christ and Him crucified". As long as we all agree on that I'm pretty sure we'll be okay. Can a person be somewhere in the middle...say, Cal-Minianist maybe, lol?

[@johnquik]

Agree with James White. God amazing grace electing sinners. All Glory to Christ !

[@rainbomikie]

Amen Kim!

[@CarlosGonzalez-og3cf]

So I guess you believe that God lies when HE says that he wants everyone to be saved. Rather they have no choice and if not choosen send the to hell and the Lake of fire?

[@CarlosGonzalez-og3cf]

Listen, GD didn't predestine anyone. He predestine the way to get salvation and HE knows who will live for HIM! YOU CHOSE FOR YOURSELF WHERE YOU WANT TO GO! GD is not unjust!! It's nit just accepting Jesus as Lord and SAVIOR, IT'S LOSING YOUR LIFE AND LIVING FOR HIM IN HIS WAYS ACCORDING YO THE WORD OF GD!! This shows that some still don't know GD or His ways! Mercy and love, but Holiness unto GD! Show proof of repentance. That's our choice, not GD'S! He died for all mankind, not some. That would be unjust! That's not the GD of the Bible (Torah).

[@joshhenderson7723]

“Did God foreknow who would choose him from eternity past, or do humans have free will?” Yes.

[@levibaer18]

That would depend on your definition of free will.

[@nickspitzley8539]

Foreknowledge by that definition is God learning form his future creation. Foreknowledge by means of decree is us learning from God.

[@arondahlberg5086]

I get the impression that James try (with his own human intellect) to understand God and how He works. But the Bible never tells us how to understand God and how He work, it tells us who He IS, what His character is like, and what His will is! It never tells us why or what God bases His will upon, just that it's His will and purpose, that He knows best and that we should trust Him. The Bible also tells us that no man can understand God, and i get the feeling that THAT is exactly what James is trying to do. As i though before Brown even said it, what is more sovereign a God that have to program everything like robots from start in detail or a God that sets the rules and gives man the possibility to choose Him or not and still is sovereign and completely in control? I believe the first veiw is trying to limit God and put him in a box. If God is allmighty He is absolutley able to get everything working according to His plan no matter if man have a free choice or not! And personally i see God as more sovereign if everything goes according to His purpose even with man having a free choice, HE IS ALLMIGHTY! I never heard of calvinism until i stumbled upon it in a sermon on internet, i never got that view when i read the Bible. But it spoke to my intellect when i heard it, and when i embraced it i became intellectual proud, but when God have humbled my heart more and more, the calvinistic view have more and more faded away and number one have become to trust God, preach the gospel to all men and just point to Jesus... In many aspects God is a mystery to us, we can't comprehend or understand him with our human mind. It's very simple, just repent and say yes to Jesus then you will know that you are chosen! Who is right? I do not know and i do not believe we should try to understand everything. What i do know though is that God delights in everyone that turn from their wicked ways and comes to him. So preaching the gospel and praise God for His salvation is should be the main focus!

[@peni_1813]

+Aron Dahlberg One of the most brainless constructed points I have ever read. Your first sentences are complete flat out contradicting. Understanding God and his work (Although not in his fullness) is found in who he is, his Character and his will. If you don't know who God is, his Character, his will then you don't know God and his work and possibly you have designed a God suitable for your beliefs, I mean talk about low end disspensationlist.

[@peni_1813]

No Calvinist will say they have completely solved all the mysterious of God and for you to say that Calvinist makes this claim is rather arrogant. Its not aggressive, its frustration over your level of hypocrisy, contradiction and inconsistency. Think about it, when the bible say 'He who sin is a slave to sin' or 'for you were DEAD in your trespasses.' Thus a someone who is spiritually dead and enslaved to sin must first receive power outside of themselves as a dead man cannot revive himself. What I was referring and still uphold to when I say a brainless point is you saying there is no need in understanding God but a need in knowing his will and character; you can't separate the two, you must know God's character and will to even have grasped some sort of understanding of God and clockwise. Look I may have gone over with my comments my apologies.

[@bugslayerprime7674]

+Peni _18 +Aron Dahlberg One did not say "there is no need in understanding God". He didn't even use the word "need" once. Maybe you shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths. He said: "Bible never tells us how to understand God and how He work" "It never tells us why or what God bases His will upon" "The Bible also tells us that no man can understand God, and i get the feeling that THAT is exactly what James is trying to do. " "In many aspects God is a mystery to us, we can't comprehend or understand him with our human mind. " "Who is right? I do not know and i do not believe we should try to understand everything." You said: "there is no need in understanding God but a need in knowing his will and character" These are two very different things. Understanding God and understanding everything are not the same. Trying to understand God and being able to understand God are not the same thing. Knowing God's will and understanding God's will aren't the same thing. Knowing God's character (as much as is revealed to us) and understanding God's character, are not the same things. Only so much can be known as has been revealed, and only so little of that can actually be understood. Separating God's character from His will isn't even the issue though. What is being questioned, if i understand it correctly, is "can we understand God's methods?". I really think you should go back and re read Aron's comment, to make sure you understood it correctly. And also go back to scripture and see what it says about understanding God, and His unfathomable nature, but also what mysteries are revealed to those He calls friends. Finally, assuming we're all Christians of one sort or another in this particular discussion, calling each other names, and branding posts as "brainless" is not consistent with scriptural behavior. Ephesians 4:15 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ, And calling someone, even by proxy, "brainless" has tones of "fool". Matthew 5:22 (NASB77) 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, ' Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. You apologized, so let's drop it there. That's very honorable and humble of you. Thank you.

[@MrMiMiK7]

+Els sea Ask a Calvinist about the problem of evil or how God desires all to be saved and watch the appeal to mystery flow.

[@WhiteBraveheart1]

St. Augustine said it brilliantly, "If you think you understand it, it's not God."

[@statesrights01]

What a blessing. I've learned So much, I feel more confident in Calvinism.

[@Anonymouslives]

Although I have a lot of respect for the work Dr. White does for God, I cannot contemplate how or why God would create purposefully people (whom He loves) to never even have a chance to be saved.

[@tysonguess]

Dr White is more concerned with protecting his belief than the truth. It wasn't lost on the reformers that if Mr. White's doctrine is true then that means God is the author of evil and responsible for all evil acts: "Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves and does all in Satan and the wicked..." - Martin Luther Martin Luther was pointing out the very same fact and affirms it. If God predestines in a way that violates free will then God is the author of evil. This is one simple reason why reformed theology is false.

[@Anonymouslives]

I'm not sure I'd say Dr. White is not interested in the truth, although that's a possibility when you firmly believe you're right, I think we have to look at what evil is exactly. So, would you agree that evil is anything contrary to the righteousness of God? If that's the case, Then it appears somehow, someway, that God did inadvertently create evil, in such that he created beings that were able to choose and capable of acting against his perfect righteousness. I don't understand it, with my limited human knowledge, but it appears to be the case,

[@tysonguess]

Anonymouslives "I'm not sure I'd say Dr. White is not interested in the truth, although that's a possibility when you firmly believe you're right" Yeah my thought is he just seems to be a polemicist. "So, would you agree that evil is anything contrary to the righteousness of God?" Specifically I think evil is best explained by trying to acquire something good (power, pleasure, etc) in a wrong way or for the wrong reason. This is why evil cannot exit on it's own as it is contingent upon the existence of good. So, from a theological view, it's probably safe to say your point is true. "Then it appears somehow, someway, that God did inadvertently create evil" in such that he created beings that were able to choose and capable of acting against his perfect righteousness" So when you do something sinful it's not your fault, its your parents? Or is it your fault because you chose to do it of your own volition? "in such that he created beings that were able to choose" So it would be more 'loving' to create beings without choice? "I don't understand it, with my limited human knowledge, but it appears to be the case," I could take a stab at explaining it in a way that does make sense if you're interested. There is a logically fatal flaw in the argument used to support the position that most overlook if they haven't been steeped in philosophy but isn't real difficult to understand.

[@brandone.5106]

Anonymouslives it wasn't inadvertent. Everything God does, he does with full knowledge of the consequences. We are guilty for evil, because we want to do it. Same with demons. They want to do it. God isn't making us sin. Adam's free and poor choice is making us sin. Adam and Eve are the only ones we all know for sure had a free choice, I believe. In the way that our parent's choices can doom us to poverty before we're born , Adam's choice dooms us to choose sin outside of God's drawing.

[@lockshore1]

@@brandone.5106 the problem is that God states that He does not want people to keep sinning. But we keep sinning. Even more, He says that he does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but the wicked is still condemned to eternal damnation. So, if calvinism is true, then why is universalism false?

[@gusgalvanini]

I love both of these brothers, but I'm w/ Dr.Brown on this one

[@jimmysiu8753]

Dr Brown won this debate!!

[@jonathanchan7395]

Surely not! Dr White clear exegesis of passages such as John 6:37, 6:44, Romans 9, Eph. 1:4 can't be ignored since they clearly teach the sovereignty of God in salvation.

[@petarecox1]

I respect you left on the comments his video didn’t. That’s great though used to be mostly Calvinist but just didn’t stick. I appreciate you and your views and am grateful for the learning you provide. God Bless

[@Holyarms]

Being a Molinist, it's apparent to me where Calvinists go wrong. They are so focused on the manifestation of God's omnipotence that they fail to recognize the equally important attribute of His infinite love for mankind. Sure, it would be fair and just for God to damn every individual for the evil acts they've committed, but it would not be loving. God wouldn't have created mankind if there wasn't a path towards man's redemption. Statements by White like, "God could take us out of existence like that and be righteous for doing so.", don't hold true for the God that I worship. God's righteousness isn't merely characterized by His omnipotence and perfect justice, but by His infinite love and omniscience.

[@jacobhanneman759]

Your view of yourself is to great. God is better then you and he would be totally just in choosing for you salvation or damnation. That is pretty clear in Romans 9.

[@gregsettle5880]

Dr Brown gets it!

[@rocio8851]

James White was predestined to loose this debate!

[@lareasm]

I love this debate, Dr. Brown and Dr. White are example of how to debate between two brothers in Chist---

[@duke-swtmate4154]

Without having watched the whole debate, here is my opinion: If someone believes that Christ has saved people, who have abandoned Christianity before they died and never came back to Christ, he believes in a wrong gospel. Only a Christian can enter the kingdom of God. So if Alexander the Great was not a Jewish believer, when he died, he was and is lost. If Paul was not a believer in Christ, he would have been lost. Christ died for all sins of mankind, - including keepers of the Old Covenant before Christ's death and including people before Abraham believing in Yahveh (f.e. Noah) - but only those, who have accepted him as the Messiah before death are saved. People have their free will, there is no predestination of salvation/being lost, but it is the free decisions of people in the future that God already knows because he is all-knowing. It is not God predestinating the decisions of people, but people themselves are doing that.

[@truthseaker2944]

Dr. Michael Brown wins hands down

[@dominiqueblagojevic9447]

I think I'm siding with dr. brown in this debate. this is exactly how I see God

[@MoMoMyPup10]

While what you see is important, what matters most is what the Bible says. The whole Bible is about God *doing* because man *can't*.

[@dominiqueblagojevic9447]

+MoMoMyPup10 I don't believe the Bible states God predestined people, so I side with Dr. Brown

[@MoMoMyPup10]

Dominique Blagojevic Rom. 8:29,30 Eph. 1:5,11 Acts 4:28 1Cor. 2:7

[@BeyondSkys09]

What matters is how the Spirit speaks to the hearer reading the Bible, and Dominique understands God to be who she think He is from what she reads, so that is an invalid point to make

[@gmag3253]

28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.…

[@erichchristian8743]

It's interesting how the question has emerged from losing salvation to forfeiting it, looking back on this question from 4 years ago, now brown talks about it as forfeiting it. I can tell he still is refining his position on the matter, good for him and God Bless both these men and their multiple debates.

[@brandone.5106]

Dr. Brown: *Supports his argument with dozens of scriptures for 25 minutes, including some Calvinist favorite scriptures. * Calvinists: "This man doesn't believe the Bible." Me: ...

[@SamOwenI]

Oh come on, have you actually read the bible passages both sides are discussing? Follow along with their arguments. How are they dealing with John 6? Romans 9? Hebrews 7:25 and the arguments about the atonement? You have to take the time to read these passages. Take the time to understand what both sides are arguing.

[@somecalvinist6875]

SamOwenI Not to mention Gen 45:5-8; 50:20, Exod 4:1, Exod 4:21; 7:3-5, Judges 9:23, Judges 9:53, 1 Sam 2:25, 2 Sam 17:14, 2 Chron 18:19-22, Ps 33:10-11, 15 and Ps 139:16. Not to mention that even Michael Brown himself is transparent and outspoken about the sterling reputation and scholastic reverence of James White in the field of textual criticism and his ability to demolish opposition in moderated debates. This guy was watching some other debate, apparently.

[@brandone.5106]

BullseyeBullsclaw they created the division. I’m just pointing it out.

[@abelphilosophy4835]

How does “to sin “ make sense where men cannot make a choice ? I love my Calvinist brethren. We are on the same team , but they need to rethink Calvinism

[@dcnfamilyify]

Good observation!

[@ethanchristian4648]

You do make a choice. When we fell in Adam, we can’t help but CHOOSE to sin

[@RagingBlast2Fan]

Sorry but that's just ignorance. And it's understandable. You need to spend a week or two trying to learn reformed theology. Calvinism is internally coherent and a plausible systematic theology.

[@frankgleon]

​@@RagingBlast2Fan Your response typifies the mean-spirited and offensive responses that come from Calvinists. You have not provided a coherent point to sustain your argument. When your theological presuppositions - framed by like minded seminars and teachers - dictate HOW to interpret the bible you are in trouble, you've placed a man-made filter on the Word of God. Paul was the same way before his encounter with Jesus, fervent, intelligent, educated, knowledgeable and eloquent, yet he was wrong. The very name of your theology is based on a man, a man of God nonetheless, but still, a mere man. You only see this in cults . While many many powerful and eloquent Calvinists have preached the gospel, with fervency, boldness and eloquence, still they need - and have needed - to have the Word of God explained to them more accurately. Blessings!

[@RagingBlast2Fan]

@@frankgleon It's interesting that you take offense to what I say, yet _your_ response is so ugly and mean spirited. Err, no, actually. I am not a committed Calvinist. I am journeying with the Lord and still studying to see what makes most sense as a theology. What I said reflects the truth. Calvinism is misunderstood. There are many objections to Calvinism, some of them are troubling enough that I haven't embraced the theology myself, but the ones most raised by lay people are not some of them, and that was the point I was making. Calvinism is indeed an internally coherent and plausible systematic theology. People have been led astray to have a hatred for Calvinism yet they do not understand what it is. They would not be so quick to dismiss it as the work of demons had they studied it. Unfortunately the only encounter that most evangelicals have with Calvinism is when their pastor, who himself doesn't understand the doctrines, goes on to attack a caricature of the theology during a sermon to instill the crowd with zealous hatred of their fellow Christians. Do you actually find any of what I say disagreeable?

[@MarkusGhambari]

00:33:30 Guess what Dr James White, we agree with you; if God wanted to save ALL people He could, but He doesn't want to program people to worship Him so in His sovereignty He has chosen to give us genuine free-will to choose between life and death, which is why not everyone gets saved.

[@MrMiMiK7]

Exactly! Is it true praise and worship if we do it under a robotic compulsion?

[@MarkusGhambari]

***** Your analogy doesn't follow.

[@MarkusGhambari]

***** Another non-sequitur.

[@MarkusGhambari]

***** Read the whole Bible.

[@MoMoMyPup10]

The whole Bible is about God doing because man can't. Understand the whole Bible while you're reading it.

[@almostsk8terjamie]

Well done to both brothers, there is a very fine line between the two positions. It took me a while to find that place. I have decided that when I got rid of the denominations, the "isms", man made traditions, statements of faith ect. ect. Then when I got to where I am now the dilemmas seem to be none existence!! Now I struggle with myself, sin, holiness ect. Much love to both!!!

[@drewwilson6639]

Well said absolutely agree!

[@MeHeDiedfor]

The common mistake that Calvinist is believing that wrath is an attribute of God. This is a grave error. Wrath is not an attribute of a God, Justice is and wrath is just a manifestation of what justice deserves. If wrath were an attribute (an immutable part of His character) then that would make sin necessary (He needs something to be angry at) and therefore God would be depended on His creation in order to fully express who He is. The Bible makes it clear that man is a sinner in need of salvation and that he cannot save himself, but don't get it confused, when God said He is not willing that any should perish He meant that, therefore the mystery is not why Gd doesn't save all but rather why don't all respond to the Gospel.

[@MrMiMiK7]

Amen! If He desires all to be saved but only allows some to be, then it is contradictory. But people are quick to use Romans 9 to try and prove double predestination when it actually points to corporate election. In Calvinism, God's wrath is greater than His love because He demonstrates wrath more than love.

[@MeHeDiedfor]

***** Debunked is a strong word. There is solid Biblical support for corporate election. It is not a perfect theological system but Calvinism certainly isn't either. I would caution people about having a love for logic (as often seen in reformed circles). Usually a love for logic leads to unbiblical conclusions....

[@mrhartley85]

Excellent point

[@ChristiansofAsia]

Here are some heresies of Augustine: 1. The canon of Scripture includes the Apocrypha (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]) 2. Baptismal regeneration (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]) & (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]) 3. Necessity of baptism for salvation/infant Baptism (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]) 4.The blasphemous sacrifice of the Mass (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]) & (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]) 5. Purgatory and praying for the departed (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]) & (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]) 6. The communion of saints and saintly intercession (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]), (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]) & (City of God 22:8 [A.D. 419]) 7. The perpetual virginity of Mary (Sermon 186) & (Heresies 56)...THIS IS THE HERETIC THAT CALVIN EXALTED AS A GREAT THEOLOGIAN and SYSTEMIZED HIS DOCTRINES (Matt 15:14)

[@rdftreeman]

Who cares about those two guys. So you don't believe that a person is saved by grace?

[@rainbomikie]

What does any of what you state have to do with the Doctrines of Grace? I do not make a habit of reading Calvin or Augustine. I believe these doctrines strictly because they are so obviously laid out by God in His word.

[@dingpaguia2424]

I would prefer to worship a God who is sovereignly powerful yet merciful, than a weak god who created heaven, and yet depends on the decision of man to populate it. This debate should ultimately answer the question: Who really saves souls? God or man?

[@dingpaguia2424]

God is definitely not the author of confusion. It is very clear in God's mind (and only in His mind) who are going to be saved or not. Let's give the Creator that prerogative to elect. In fact it is revealed in Scripture that there is such an election. And that implies (but obviously, that there would be those who would not be included in the elect). If God were to exercise His strict judgment, no one would be saved, because all have sinned and all deserve the punishment. Even the elect deserve that punishment because they too are sinners. And on the other hand, God does not elect all. Why God has designed it so, we can never fully understand. But as far as election is concerned, Scripture says that He does it according to the pleasure of His own counsel, which means that His decisions are in no way influenced by anything that is in the creature (whether good or bad), for Him to extend His mercy. Since the Fall, all have been blinded because of sin. It is only by His grace that some are gifted with regeneration so that they are able to understand and accept the truth of the gospel when they hear it. To all the rest, the gospel remains veiled until such time that the grace of God allows them to understand. Since regeneration is wholly an act of God's grace, man is unable to come to God on his own. Paul says that the natural (sinful) man does not submit to God's law, nor can he do so. It should be understood to mean that he can never come to God apart from God first regenerating him (by giving him a new heart and a new spirit). Bottom line is it all comes back to God's predestination and election. It is not up to man. Problem is, some think that they are free to choose God by their own power. Scripture clearly denies that. It is only by His grace that we are able to do that. And so the Church is mandated to preach the gospel to everybody, because we do not know who the elect are. Only God knows them. And so when the gospel is preached, the Spirit begins His work in the hearts of the elect so that they never fail to understand and believe, leaving the non-elect still in darkness. That's as far as I understand these things.

[@dingpaguia2424]

May I add also that the "lost" is not confused; he is in darkness. He does not see the things of God, much less believe them. The bible says he is "dead in sin" and dead people cannot do anything, nor can they make choices. The ability to believe the gospel is made possible only by the grace of God, not by the will of man, because "God gives His mercy to whom He choses to give mercy, and He hardens those whom He wants to harden." I don't know what else proves God's sovereignty - His absolute freedom to do as He wills and the power to do it - if not this statement.

[@rainbomikie]

Ding paguia Thank you brother. How refreshing to read your comments and see that there is someone here more interested in biblical truth than humanistic interpretations like so many have given here.

[@dingpaguia2424]

S. Nathan You're welcome brother. I don't usually make comments on posts like these, but I realize that maybe God will bless the small amount of wisdom He has given me, that if I share it, others will be blessed too. I love reading all kinds of commentaries and doctrines on the subject and for many years, I did. I love the Word of God - it is truly rich in wisdom. You may read a single text many times over, but every time God reveals something new. What is Calvinism, and what is Arminianism? (and there are many other "isms"). They are all just names. They all have flaws in their theologies because they are all men subject to errors of comprehension. The bottom line for me is which of them can give me "more satisfactory" answers to my own questions, and that they be supported by Scripture. I found it in reading Calvin and other Reformed writers. I found in them more reliable truths than the others can give. As to other controversies in my mind to which I find no clear answers from any of them, I pray to God to reveal to me, whether in this life or when I am face to face with Him in the next.

[@2pe318]

If calvinism is true, and sinners are glorifying God in their sin, why would we punish them here on earth and not let them carry out their sin, wouldnt this be diminishing God's glory?

[@schwartzkm]

I really like the spirit both these debaters brought to the debate. They disagreed but you could tell they both mutually respected each other. Very nice, Dr Brown and Dr White! This should be a model for others to follow on how to have an "in house" debate!

[@truthlover72]

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall any reference to 2 Peter 3:9, which, to me, makes it very clear that not everything that we do or that happens in this world is 'God's will'. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." From this single passage, we're told that God is 'willing' that 'all' should come to repentance; that God is 'not willing' that 'any' should perish. According to Calvinism, then, since God is 'not willing' that 'any' should perish but that 'all' should come to repentance, either nobody is going to perish, or God does not get what He wills. I also have to ask the Calvinist, why would God 'ordain' that any of His creatures should rebel against Him; reject Him? God's existence is eternally perfect without any creatures at all. Why 'create' that which He hates and causes Him great suffering, when He could have just gone one enjoying His perfection? Doesn't this begin to paint a rather 'sado-masochistic' image of God? But 'God is good' and 'hates evil' and would not 'ordain' evil. According to what Christ and the apostles taught, each of us must 'receive' what God has done for us in Christ. While God does work in our lives to bring us to 'receiving', He does not force us to 'receive'. The very ability to 'repent' is a gift from God. That there are spirits that 'will not' repent and receive, is evident, whether those be spirits of fallen angels or the spirits of those mortals whom Christ calls 'tares' and 'synagogue of satan'. In God's dealing with His creatures, there is a difference between Him 'foreknowing' and His 'foreordaining' all things. Obviously, there is an awful lot that has gone on in His creation that has been against what He wills.

[@teemu1381]

Lou Stacey Because II Peter 3:9 is addressing and written to the the believer.Read the context of whom its speaking to.II Peter 3:1 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:".....Notice II Peter 3:9 says "longsuffering to us-ward"....Usward = The Elect/believer. God is not willing that any of the Elect should perish but all of the Elect should come to Repentance.And yes,God gets what HE wants!

[@truthlover72]

teemu1381 It is you who are not reading 2Peter 3:9 in context of what Christ taught concerning His sheep. There is a huge 'hole' in your fabric of reasoning for this passage, even according to your own Calvinist doctrines, not to mention the Words of Jesus Christ, Who assures us in John 6:37, 39-40 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out...And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." And further: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:27-29 Since Christ assures us that none who come to Him shall be lost/plucked from His hand, and SHALL NEVER PERISH, 2Peter 3:9 cannot refer to the 'found' ONLY. How can those who are 'found' and cannot 'be plucked from the Father's hand' and SHALL NEVER PERISH, be at risk of 'perishing'? Obviously, the 'any' in 2Peter 3:9 refers to those who CAN perish; are perishing. Since God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, obviously there are those who CAN perish, and since the 'saved' CANNOT perish, the 'ANY' of 2Peter 3:9 includes all of Adam's progeny. After all, the Promise that the Seed of the woman would come, was given by God before Adam had any offspring. But according to your Calvinistic reasoning, God must have 'been willing' that only 'some' of Adam's progeny 'not perish' and 'been willing' that the rest of Adam's offspring 'should perish'. We see again in Matthew, Jesus says: "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." Matthew 18:14 Since the Father wills that 'not one' of His little ones 'should perish', not one of His little ones 'shall perish'. So it is impossible that even ONE of the saved should perish. Ergo, the 'any' in 2Peter 3:9 must encompass even those who can perish. And what this tells us is that there are some who can and will perish, even though God does not will that they perish. Ergo, there are wills other than God's will operating among Adam's progeny. Otherwise, ALL of Adam's progeny shall be saved and NONE of Adam's progeny shall perish.

[@teemu1381]

Lou Stacey Oh so let's forget the other verses in context...John 6:44 and John 6:65 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." and you forgot John 10:25-26 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine" As far as II Peter 3:9,Are you saying Christ failed? God is not willing that any should perish and yet Many are going to Hell.It sounds like you enjoy making God a powerless Saviour.As if God can't save anyone unless man cooperates. You need to read the chapter of whom it is written to and read the context of whom its speaking to, which is why you're confused.II Peter 3 is CLEARLY talking to 'the beloved' (which is the believer) as most of the Bible is written to the believer.....put your Calvinist "labels" aside and read what the scriptures say in context and stop relying on your man centered views

[@truthlover72]

teemu1381 Put your Calvinist lenses aside and allow the Scriptures to speak to you and allow the Holy Spirit, not 'Calvin', to convict you of the Truth in the Scriptures. There is no 'debate' that it is the Father Who draws us or that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that brings a soul to true repentance and surrender to Jesus Christ. The Father drawing and the Holy Spirit working does not mean the soul is FORCED to surrender to Christ. Nor does it mean that God has failed. He has always KNOWN who will RESPOND and who will not RESPOND to His drawing. Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:32 Note the word 'ALL'. Was Christ 'lifted up from the earth'? YES. Has He been drawing 'ALL' to Himself? YES. If only 'SOME' respond, does that make Christ a 'failure'? NO. Christ has done ALL that is His to do. If man fails to do what is his part to do, it is man who has failed, not Christ. There are many testimonies of those who KNEW that they were being drawn; KNEW that the Holy Spirit was working on them to bring them to Christ and KNEW they rejected Christ. In your book, does their wilful refusal to surrender to God's drawing and the Holy Spirit's conviction make 'God' a failure? Just because God FOREKNEW all those who WOULD be saved through faith in Christ, you have no grounds to believe or teach that it was God's WILL that all the rest of mankind should perish. To insist, like a Calvinist, that only God has a WILL, is to deny that God created man in His own Likeness; with a WILL. To insist that only God has a WILL, is to accuse God of forcing Adam to rebel against Him, (not to mention forcing the angels to rebel against Him). Calvinism conjures an image of God as a 'sado-masochist'; a big 'chess player in the sky', moving will-less pawns wherever he wants; a mad scientist who deliberately creates waste for the incinerator. Do you believe it is possible for Christians to be deceived about anything? If you do believe Christians can be deceived, is it 'God's will' that His own children be deceived? Do His children not have any responsibility for having been deceived, because 'God wills' that they be deceived? In Revelation 18:4, Christ is calling His people to 'Come out of her...' I ask you, are Christ's people 'in her' because 'God willed' that they be 'in her'? If so, why is Christ calling His people to 'Come out of her'? Is it possible that Christ's people are 'in her' because they are not where 'God wills' them to be? I have a problem with the Calvinistic doctrines because they contort the Image of God and make Him seem 'schizophrenic', at best, and 'psychopathic'.

[@shirleydaughteroftheking5332]

Lou Stacey Hi to Lou & teemu, I was just wondering if any one has brought up this verse, and if so, how does the Calvinist refute it: ??? 2 Peter 2:1 "But there were FALSE Prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE Teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING the LORD that BOUGHT them..."

[@nathanwall2808]

Brown took this debate, hands down

[@jimmybone5128]

I think the biggest difference is that Calvinist don't allow for humans to have their own choice. Just because God knows what we are going to choose doesn't mean we don't make the choice. God did step into time and space, the time and space that we are part of and limited by, to make a way for ANY of us that come to Him a way to reconciliation. Yes he knows who will and who won't, but did not MAKE any of us chose one way or the other. That said I love both these men and am VERY thankful for both of them. Great talk.

[@vj2603]

Men do have their own choice. It's just for calvinist, the elects are the one who will given faith and got mercy on God by His knowledge. On the other hand, the unbelievers will be justified by their own sin. God is glorified in both ways. He is justice but also merciful.

[@beowulf.reborn]

"That the prophets when they expressed God's heart, were clearly articulating who He is. That, when there are times in the prophets, you can't tell where the prophet begins and God ends, and God ends and the prophet begins, because of the interchange of heart ..." This brought me to the edge of tears, I had never considered that unity before. And to think of when Moses said that he wished that all the people would be prophets, I can see now, that this must be what heaven is.

[@DrHarryT]

We are creating the future He has already seen through the gift of freewill choice. It is beyond mortal comprehension to contemplate that the Father can see the outcome of every potential choice of every mortal that has and will exist since creation of this universe until Matthew 24:35 (Heaven and earth pass away)

[@abelphilosophy4835]

I firmly believe Calvinism is a cult. I mean no disrespect to Calvinist in a personal way. I believe that misrepresentation of God's character is cultist. The Bible is clear that God loves all men. Wants all men to be saved . Has provided a method of Salvation accessible to everyone who believes . Eternal life for those who believe , eternal condemnation to those who don't . I find it consistent with God Holy , Righteous, and Loving character . To God be the glory

[@JStevensdk7]

Abel Duliep Agree absolutely 100%, Calvinism sadly teaches a different God than the Bible as well as a false gospel, this is heresy. If anyone is interested I have compiled some verses on what the Bible actually teaches. Maybe it will help someone struggling with the cult of calvinism. diekrupt.blogspot.com/2017/02/my-contribution-to-debate-of-gods-love.html?m=1

[@GregorasProject]

Read Romans 9 again. It says that God is willing to show his wrath and has prepared with much patience vessels of destruction to show his glory to his children. If God really wanted all men to be saved, Jesus would just reveal himself to everyone like he did to Paul. You have to understand that God isn't really going to save the whole world, but has the ability to save the whole world, if he willed, through his son.

[@saintuary3281]

Most people who disagree with Calvinism, usually dont fully understand it. 👀

[@patrickchen4390]

@@GregorasProject, Romans 9...do u want to mention John 6 and Ephesians 1 as well? do a bit of search and the you will find out how the non-calvinists interprets those chapters in context.

[@gaurabrai4063]

We are underestimating God if we think we can choose him. He loves yes highly agree but is the almighty God not capable of hate (very patient) to the one he foreknew that would not choose him? Does he not know our choices? are our hearts not wide open for him to read? we humans are fools if we think we can choose him. For if we did we make the God our Lord sound pity full. God didn't just know us form the beginning of creation but also He knows us till Revelation and further. Why else would revelation be written? God shows and tells us that He already knows. He describes the exact things that are to happen in fine details does he not? How are we to doubt Him? Understand that the Sovereignty of God is not to be underestimated by our minds which cannot comprehend His Greatness.

[@barmeyroberts8262]

I know him Hashem Yahshua, his perfect love,his perfect judgment. The one true God is governed by one thing. ( Perfection) He is the Lamb that has no blemish, know him receive him,taste him he is good all the time.

[@kevinbolick2349]

I appreciate both of these men of God. A healthy debate is productive, but too often I see ugly fighting and comments on this topic. I agree with Dr. Brown.

[@mslisasierra]

It is sad that people think God owes us grace, mercy, and salvation. He doesn’t. We are all undeserving. The fact that He has saved even ONE person reflects His goodness. He isn’t obligated to save ONE. It’s even more sad that people truly believe that they have the ability and capacity to “choose” salvation for themselves. God pulled me out of the grave and it wasn’t my own doing. Calvinism is truth! 🔥

[@abelphilosophy4835]

I’m Cuban, In the matter of men’s part in salvation , Calvinism reminds me of the communist dictatorship I lived . You have no choice in the matter

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

It turns God into the great chess player in the sky and we are just pawns. What is the point in Christ dying if God just picks who he feels like saving and sends to hell those he feels like rejecting. I'm supposed to tell unbelievers this is the good news? This isn't even good news or a God I'd want to serve, how do I sell that to the unbeliever? The world sees through it too, because they think God is a tyrant if this is how they see God.

[@ethanchristian4648]

Sainte Jeanne d'Arc “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” - Romans 9:20-21

[@RagingBlast2Fan]

Well, not exactly. God doesn't impose salvation on the person. He regenerates them such that they desire the Lord when they otherwise wouldn't have due to their fallen nature. On Arminianism it's conversion first and then regeneration. On Calvinism it's regeneration first and then conversion. The person has some kind of free will on either view.

[@209coach]

So you don't agree with scripture?

[@joshuachambers5706]

@@RagingBlast2Fan John 6:44, 65

[@careyunknown3449]

why preach the gospel to all the world if everything is predestined..is as if theres no need to do anything in the name of christ..

[@peni_1813]

+Carey Cooper Well you preach the Gospel to all nations because God commanded that. No human knows who will be predestined and thus you follow God's command and preach to every nation every creature.

[@magnusornelas479]

Gamer Extraodernair why does the Bible say it then?

[@ant1k]

Preach to all people every day, because according to you, God depends on you to save

[@leegaesswitz181]

I'm very impressed with Dr. Brown with how deals with brothers in the faith. Although I disagree with him on this issue, he is proof that we can have differences within Christendom and still lock arms as we reach people for the lord. He is a very intelligent debater and I am glad he is on our side fighting for truth.

[@YouGotGODAllWrong]

John 3:16 God so loved the WORLD! Not some of the world who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come- and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. (Hebrews 6:5, 6 NLT) Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. (Hebrews 10:26-29 NLT)

[@joshuascott8521]

The word "so" puts a condition on "love". He so loved the world. He loved Jacob and "hated" Esau.

[@mbbeard21]

Mr Brown seems to back his position directly with scripture. Mr White seems to back his position with more generalities and philosophy. Just an observation...

[@elijah1047]

A very good observation

[@waltjervey6572]

I'm with Brown on this very "confusing" topic.

[@thecure728]

The best analogous example I've heard is this: if you're standing on the street watching a parade you can't see ahead or behind but if you go up in a helicopter you can see the front and the back of the parade but it doesn't mean you caused it to be that way