Don’t Go to Art School! Here’s Why - Draftsmen S2E02

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Marshall and Stan counter the previous episode with the negative aspects of going to art school. Crushing debt, the true value of a degree, and empty job promises are all talked about along with some personal insights surrounding the cons of going to art school. This was a rough one - Stan and Marshall might need some BetterHelp counseling after this…
The next 3 episodes will dive into how you can recreate art school from home, so stay subscribed and hit that bell icon to not miss those videos.
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh , Sean Ramsey (www.peoplewhodrawstuff.com), Katrina Collins (www.katrinacollins.com)
Editing - Charlie Nicholson, Katrina Collins
Audio Engineer - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra

[@Draftsmen]

Let us know what cons we didn’t talk about that should make the list. What are your thoughts about art school?

[@johnnym9909]

A con that I heard from other people that went to art school is dealing with people; drama. The intention of going to school is to learn a subject but there could be instances where there are personalities that delineate your studies because of their BS. Secondly, I think you mentioned this, people don't do thorough research when they go to art school and have a teacher that don't support their artstyle, this might make them feel left out. Lastly, I've heard from quite a lot of people who I know that teachers impose post-modernism into the students. I think this hindered most students and actually made them worst artists. As a result of this, they came out of their universities worst off than when they began school. Separate to the discussion, I think it boils down to how much inquiry you have in the subject as well as the discipline to continue learning the subject. Thank you for making the video.

[@KiX-K4T13]

I don't know about any of that, but I just finished The Promised Neverland, and what a beautiful anime that was. Powerful stuff. It's so much despair while you watch it, then there's a tiny shred, a glimmer of hope. I can't say much without giving any of it away. GO and watch it. When you have a minute. It's good. Okay. Bye now.

[@sravyasaraswatula6700]

If there's no good college around you... Or if there's no scope from where you are

[@richieray6619]

Katie Marigold True. I love that anime. Also Carole n Tuesday.

[@noahmchan68]

While I agree that you can learn art skills outside of a college setting, I think that the environment, your peers, and teachers can push your artistic development in a way that isn’t possible on your own. What made art school worth it to me was being shown new ways of perceiving my art and giving it a new directions that I wouldn’t have discovered by myself. They can also point you to resources that you didn’t know about. I wouldn’t have found this podcast if my drawing professor hadn’t told me about it! I don’t know if this is a popular opinion, but I think art school should be just as much about expanding your horizons and finding new ways of thinking about art (and/or illustration) as it is about meeting people and developing skills. You can discover new things about yourself and the work you do when you are challenged by those around you. I know this more of a fine artist’s way of thinking than an illustrator’s, but there is value in learning about art philosophy in addition to the fundamentals and professional practice. Even as someone who draws comics, I still think about the ideas that painters, sculptors, printmakers, and photographers have introduced to me even if they don’t apply directly to my work.

[@beginnersart7054]

Summary; 1. Expensive (Puts you in so much debt) 2. A degree doesn't guarantee work. 3. After school, you start all over again. 4. You gotta find your structure, art school doesn't provide one good enough.

[@goodgrief888]

Yep. Art school is the only educational institution where you’re guaranteed not to get a job that pays well enough to pay off the tuition. And if you don’t get a masters you can’t even get a job teaching. And everyone that graduated from grad school is competing for the same teaching jobs. And then you need to break it to the students you’re teaching that they’re not going to be able to pay off their tuition with their art work.

[@Elvira_Axen]

Marshall: says something profound and meaningful Stan, clearly not listening: bobo-bapbap!

[@shawndinhstephens]

Marshall: about to give some articulate and relevant advice Stan: you have 2 minutes

[@TaterProduction]

Yes!! Love the draftsmen podcast!

[@sa7o]

hate it. here is about a 5 min of content.

[@eliaol4231]

@@shawndinhstephens 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@paulrob86]

I started drawing three years ago, I’m now 55. I am completely self taught, after 18 months I got my first commission. You don’t need to go to art school, you just need to be prepared to do some research and put in the hours

[@ButterflyLullabyLtd]

Well done with the Art Commission. Our daughter is 18 and has had art commission's too. I'm glad she is not going to Art School in the UK. And feel grateful that we have an American Art Mentor.

[@williampalomares248]

When your young you need experience ,then you grow up get experience then you can't talk about that it's called bragging .it's confusing it's not important I got good at art from learning on my own doing work for businesses .that's 100 × better than hanging art in a dusty lonely gallery. Apply your gifts to something useful .art looks nice but who benefits from a hanging canvas in a loft ? A public mural that millions will see is a better way to get exposure and put your talent to use .then hidden and only seen by a chosen few .

[@allOizzOwell]

This is inspiring started art from age of 52 and able to get commission as well. Wow 👌

[@williampalomares248]

@@allOizzOwell the more you become an expert the more you find yourself appreciating abstract art .I understand Picasso on another level now that I've been painting 20years.its never ending your going to paint forever.even in your sleep 😴

[@conjj17]

How much were you practicing a day?

[@seragx99]

Yo, when I was a kid drawing was my passion, I was the little kid who could draw the Ghostbusters and stuff, I went to painting "workshops", when people asked me what I wanted to be I always said I wanted to be a painter, as I grew up I sadly "realized" the painter profession didn't exist anymore (notice the quotes), and as every kid, I grew out of drawing and I forgot of my dreams, later in life I learned that my grand aunt tried to convince my mom to get me to art school, she was very rich so she knew what she was talking about, I never wanted to know why my mom didn't listen to her advice as by the time I heard about it my painting dreams were long gone, I made a (bad) career in music and way above my thirties got a shitty office job, that's when I discovered deviant art and was shocked to learn there were actual people getting paid for drawing. I wish I could say that I shifted careers and that I'm a successful artist right now, but my life got a complete new meaning out of learning that someone somewhere was living my dream and that I'm struggling to get there, these videos are immensely helpful, can't thank enough Proko for doing what he does in his classes and these podcasts, cheers to anyone following this path. Respect.

[@Christikransch98]

Does this mean you got back to painting now? :o

[@ariq45]

yeah, tell us

[@zoeandrews7422]

Never too late to follow your dreams, no matter how old you are. You can do it man

[@nomad7196]

I know artists who've started their art careers in their 60's and 70's. It's never too late. Even if it's just as a hobby or to make money on the side

[@OriLOK2]

Never too late. I'm in med school to get away from a bad situation and my family wanted it, but I fully intend on going to workshops/art schools when my practice allows. The end goal is to have enough money to look after my patients and regularly produce artworks that challenge me. I have friends who went to art school straight away who are cheering me on and mentoring me. None of them think I started too late, because there's no such thing. If you want it, keep doing it and you'll get better. Don't think about how good you could have been; just think how good you could be if you start now!

[@johnbandadesigns4605]

Marshall has a voice made for radio.

[@michawojciak1837]

Or naps in auditorium!

[@whatisitthesedays]

Have you seen his perspective courses? He's an amazing teacher too.

[@paperwifu]

I feel like this podcast could really go into so many details about the cons. If there is one strong lesson I painfully learned is don't go to an art school just by judging the course layout, students' work at their open day and art school's reputation! If you are a serious artist who kind of understands what direction you want to take your art, research the teachers! Look at the teachers' work and see if they are the type of mentors who will drive your art forward. Ask yourself: Is their art at a level you would like to be at one day? Do they have experience in the field you would potentially like to be in? Are they of a similar style or similar field you would like to learn techniques from? Remember these teachers will be the ones giving you advice and directing your art decisions! Their art perspective is an important factor to consider. Understandably art school is a place to explore and expand your scope and one can debate all teachers have something to offer however if it's not up your alley, this difference can stray you from your purpose of why you went to art school in the first place and like many stories I hear, paralyzed a lot of potential artists who then suffer "art identity crisis" because they learned so many styles/processes but not much that can help develop their own.

[@hellomint4028]

its not a con tho. Its just being irresponsible about ur future. Its the same thing in every school/college. Whether its hearing rumors of that teacher/professor or actually looking them up, everyone should have an idea what their class is going to be like. And when u have the choice (mostly in college cuz school doesn't give u a choice) u want to think about whether u wanna continue with him or not.

[@paperwifu]

@@hellomint4028 It can be considered as a con, good art schools don't guarantee that there will be good teachers/ mentors especially when those teachers don't know a tenth of what Proko teaches, that's insane when you consider how much students must pay per year. Also considering that in all academic fields other than art you learn at least the basics and minimal knowledge in your field as part of your foundation but that is rare in art schools. Instead, the idea of having a "style" has overshadowed the importance of good drawing and mastery of the craft.

[@jeadevoe209]

@@paperwifu well said (written as the case may be)

[@mayoart2]

preach! your comment should have way more up-votes 🙌

[@axelssantoso5667]

agreed , i also want to go to a university with a motive of getting close to the teachers and learn from them one by one so that they can serve to be some sort of a mentor for me so that whenever i need advice or help i can contact them whenever i need and i also want to meet new people with the same interest as i hold and make new connections and maybe get to know the kids from other faculty to get their perspective on stuff and maybe take a thing or two from them that can benefit me as an artist . so yea i mainly want to make new connections that might benefit me in the future , any thoughts on that guys ?

[@yuuneeq9494]

Finally, my weekly 40 minutes of Marshall gaslighting Proko is here.

[@sophia-luciakwon2792]

PUahhahHHaha!

[@vess7789]

Literally graduated a few days ago and now I’m in that awkward phase where I feel like I have to start over and I regret going to art school and feel all of the other things Marshal listed… aaaahhhh I wish this podcast existed 4 years ago 😄 Nevertheless, I am trying to be positive and believe in myself, I am doing online courses and I am learning. 🤙🏼

[@na-coli]

As a VERY organised self taught artist who started art school last year, I haven't ever learn anything useful but that I know myself better than anyone. As they (teachers) ask us for LOTS of non art related work that most of us student already know essentials of, PLUS, when speaking about ART and TECHNIQUE they don't know anything about what they are talking about most of the time, improvising suggestions on the go, shitty homeworks and shitty classes about very general and easy things suck up tremendous amounts of TIME and energy and I can affirm that I have REGRESSED as an artist, having less sleep, less energy, less confidence, less time for REAL work or personnal developpement and less skills right now.

[@na-coli]

what make me more angry is that as a french student, it's free, know that it should also be ruled and certified as quality teaching (while it isn't), it even makes me earn money from grants. BUT I also have a irregular family situation, living with my parents isn't a possibility, so I live from french grants given to people going to school. I couldn't survive either way, and I know that going to my art school still is better than having a day job and learning on my own besides. The perfect ingredient to make someone a good artist only is freedom and free time allowed to them.

[@pluet_2003]

what art school did you go to out of curiousity?

[@lune5289]

@@na-coli im french and its not free wtf

[@user-bx2yt1pp8i]

@@lune5289 je pense qu'il ne parlait pas d'une école d'art privée, visiblement s'il dit qu'il s'agit d'un endroit où il apprend "gratuitement" et qu'en plus il est boursier, c'est qu'il doit aller à l'université. Pour moi, ça n'est clairement pas le meilleur endroit pour s'enrichir et gagner en skill. À part devenir prof d'art plastique au lycée, tu fais pas grand chose avec ta licence ou ton master d'art plas. En France c'est une véritable galère en ce qui concerne les études d'art. Rien n'est gratuit, et si on veut un cursus un tant soit peu intéressant, ça coûte extrêmement cher.

[@yyguuyg]

Reading your comment (attempting to, at least) makes me believe you never finished an English course.

[@tranvu5303]

Your thumbnail game is insane.

[@redsalonga8784]

I think this is my favorite

[@StormEngineer]

Way better than all those stupid clickbait fake thumbnails that are dominating YT nowadays.

[@timothytucker799]

Storm Engineer so damn true

[@renjiai]

I always recommend community college for art, because you get the learning environment, practice and critique, but you don't have to fork out insane amounts of money. I learned a lot there. You just work on your skills and don't worry about the degree. Two years is enough to put you on the track of how to self improve and learn on your own.

[@lumpystilskin5367]

True

[@me0on0utube]

As someone who went to art school (in the U.S.) I can say it's a waste of time and especially money. I used to love drawing but art school killed my passion.

[@bajabog]

Which degree did you acquired?

[@the_jolly_bunny]

Maybe you choose the wrong art school

[@mynamesnotrick]

Graphic design teachers killed my interest in art and made me hate design.

[@andrewcheng2113]

Find a way to revive that passion bro, took me two long years but now I got it back.

[@steampunkrose1010]

It didnt kill the desire but it did kill my confidence.

[@TaterProduction]

By far the best part of this video is Marshall’s Harry’s ad. How can I not buy the Truman set after that stunning presentation???

[@brettinabox5607]

Same, I wanna see him voice a cartoon character.

[@arbitraryify]

Best ad for a shave I've gotten in years - I hope Harry's gave them a bonus.

[@tqracing]

Agreed! And I don't even shave...

[@nothanks9980]

It will be funny if he did that voice with the therapy ad

[@luisgun]

I wanted to study illustration back in my home town, my parents decided NO, cuz the only institute in the city that offered an illustration program didn't offer a "degree". So i had to choose the closest thing which was graphic design... the college was garbage except for a few teachers. Now I moved to the US, I have an associate degree of a mediocre university from a third world country and i'm not working doing something I'm passionate about. I still practice and try to improve as much as I can, although the learning curve is a bit of an obstacle when you have no guidance. I'm determined to keep improving and enter in the industry as a professional artist some day

[@Vinadet]

Oof I have a somewhat similar experience and I know how discouraging it was for me. I wonder these days how I should restart. Good luck with improving!! You can do this!!

[@mynamesnotrick]

Same! Such garbage.

[@andrewcheng2113]

I’m sorry for you man, but I feel like the compositional and shape designing skills will definitely come in handy as an illustrator. Keep up the grind, cheers.

[@leilai6815]

recommend you svslearn, they've got an structured curriculum, great teachers and it's very affordable :)

[@Babesinthewood97]

You can get guidance from Domestica courses.

[@zherra8393]

I swear I need these episodes faster! I've been trying to re-create my own art school for the past school year because I cannot afford to go to an actual art school, and at the end of every episode so far this season, you guys tease me with what's coming next and I'm just like... "I have to wait a whole week now?!?!?"

[@Ironcladded]

And there is me. I thought that college is going to teach me how to drawing, but all what I'm doing there is to tick off the checklist. During the lockdown I noticed that I'm learning twice as fast by my own and I have much more fun. So I'm thinking to drop it after pandemic ends. It is waste of my hard earned money.

[@kunokoaeri3505]

I learned smthg from school and i think it works in everything: If u know nothing about it, dont expect to learn in school. School is just giving u another point of view, or better ways to do what u were doing. This is just more data. But do not expect to learn something from it, u need to learn by urself. There is a lot of videos and good books to learn from. Do not forget to expand ur knowledge in art techniques, because u can include it to ur work. Wish u the best in it ;)

[@GendefectX]

"Aohh, first sips! They mean something." - Marshall Vandruff

[@andersdenkend]

I *so* felt that. The first sip of coffee in the morning is truely something else. :D

[@jur5974]

You go to the art schools for the industry connections. A lot of Arts Center and Calarts alumni work in the major studios.

[@izeg690]

I love this anti-art school stance from two professionals.

[@johnnyd9991]

Last time I was this early we weren't in the middle of a pandemic

[@bajabog]

Love that Marshall did not knew what Tik Tok is, he is a man of culture.

[@TotalWannabe]

know*

[@veronicafensel926]

I wouldn't mind longer podcasts! Don't worry about taking too long on explanations I could hear you guys talk about art all day haha

[@zombiedrool5437]

Really looking forward to the episode where they gonna show how to recreate art school at home. I don’t have money to go to art school and I’m kinda clueless how to set up a structure to study art. I really want to live and work as an artist.

[@cahierdepluie9590]

wait so now that - that series is out, how did you find it? did you end up applying their advice? hows it going im nosey XD

[@Waynimations]

I go to an public university but a huge portion of their students are art students. We have like 3 buildings dedicated to art. I find it refreshing to not be stuck in the art school bubble as I can have friends from many different majors and often they give great critique on my work.

[@damagebrain]

Learned coding in a community college and continue reading and i have wrote more programs then my brother with a bachelors. i consider that the my teacher made me better she give me her old books of her computer engineer, I believe mentorship is better then a college like Plato's did Aristoteles and went Alexander the great.

[@claudiavidal5195]

D Brain mentorship is everything, that is how old artists, scientists and philosophers did so much back them... I went through law school and learned nothing pretty much except from the teachers I admired cause they took the time to guide each one of us... on that note, after my bachelor I was blessed to work in two different occasions with 02 bosses that had the time and patience to teach me basics “I was supposed to learn at law school”... I learned more from them than on my 6 years of university....

[@seanc3362]

e who enter here, abandon all hope.” Art school motto. I weep for all who are in school listening to this.

[@ashcomics13]

I got some good advice to go to art school and then I got some bad advice to stay. Never let a professor or a professional determine the limits of your art, you're the artist only you can draw that line.

[@JacksterDude12]

This is my first Draftsmen video having watched Proko for a while, and I must say, i'm impressed! The edits are awesome, informative and funny, and you guys have great chemistry. Keep up the good work, I look forward to more podcasts!

[@justzach253]

Marshal in the ad sounds like my RPG grandpa before I head out on my mission. Now I feel like I need to go to the mountains and rescue the princess with my facial razor.

[@JamesJon1187]

You guys are such a pleasure to watch/listen to. I'm so glad you're back!

[@byronrhodes1659]

I love your show! I love your playful banter! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinions. Oh and thanks for putting up new art in the background, it’s refreshing. You guys are awesome!

[@marcuslarsson9396]

this is the BEST thing that ever happend to me! thanks for this pod and for your awesome personalities makes my art studies after work so joyful.

[@colem99]

I truly cannot wait for your next few videos. Thank you. You are keeping me alive through covid-quarentine.

[@castoniatk439]

I looooove your podcasts, please never stop!! Super informative and funny at the same time!

[@GHOSTHUNTER1295]

Great podcast. Now, art school is not necessary it does not guarantee you landing in a job (I say this as someone who holds a useless History degree), but if you want to level up your skills for the industry standards you need a proper, structured training. As someone who has experience in education, I think most of the people quit things or get bored because they are educated under globalized programs. I mean, everyone who wants to become a professional needs to master fundamentals, but the pace and the way everyone learns may vary enormously. Art skills are very much like going to the gym. Before starting a routine, you get a medical evaluation which is going to be the basis for a training program that fits to you, which you'll see results with if you are constant and disciplined. Most of the people quit excercise after a few weeks because they don't see results, and nobody will see significant results if you keep doing Instagram universal workouts under the title "The definitive back workout". Studies show that people that has an structured, customized program see results quickly. And people will note it, and they will tell you that you lookk fit, which is going to motivate you to continue.

[@Chronorust]

Get's sold an Oscar-worthy advertisement of shaving blades in-video *Get's interrupted by an actual KZbin ad* (Keep up the good work, Draftsmen!)

[@dankdegl612]

I was just looking at the channel this morning, thinking to myself that I wished a new ep would come out. Couldn't have come at a greater time! I now know what I'll be doing for the night lol

[@sheilafinchfineart]

Great video! I You two are hilarious together! I am a self-taught painter who was advised long ago by my gallery to NOT go to art school, just continue on my own, as I'd been working at art since I was 12 and started selling at 16.. Having said that, I LOVE that so much wonderful training is now available online (thank you Stan... I bought your classes on portraits and figure). I'm looking forward to hearing what you put together for the future! Please make more videos!

[@dorothyreavis3040]

I just discovered the Draftsman and you guys are part of my art education, lol. I've been a high school art teacher for 11 years; from intro to AP. I was rejected from a MFA program because my work was not non objective, and didn't fit into their "mission" (I'm a figurative, portrait artist). Though I was super bummed because I felt art school would help me break into the art field and help me out of teaching high school, I realized painting non objectively was not for me and perhaps I can save myself the trouble and create my own way. Love the talks! Keep them coming!

[@A85Tr4ct]

These two in screen always quality content, love it.

[@artloveranimation]

As someone who is in college (not art school exclusively) I have found that critiques and learning from teachers in person has been very helpful for me to improve my skills in art.

[@CC-kc1zb]

Marshall is so beautiful! Look that profile and the perfect face structure!

[@eltocher8985]

never use the asaro head use marshall's head

[@shaky5754]

El Tocher o

[@treyrussell5120]

This show is such a motivation/ inspiration for me! keep it up!!

[@artjay]

Love the podcast! I've been heavily debating going back to school to Concept Design Academy to finally pursue my actual passion. I earned my Bachelor's in Marketing, but I've had a lot of trouble finding a job - especially with all this quarantine craziness (not to mention I only majored in it to make my parents happy). Anyways, thanks for the insight so far! I'm really looking forward to the next episodes.

[@sarahsantana4439]

OMG I sit with a pen and a notepad eager for all your reference. Thanks, and then you have such a natural and funny conversation like you could go on to the next day talking.

[@CrashBandicootFan100]

I will show this to my mother (since she can speak English, dad gets to hear the aftermath) Hope now they get why I feel I've wasted around 3 years of my life so far (fine art school, free tuition since it's in Europe, don't care about fine arts - want to learn digital and get into the art industry, academy isn't supplying that for me) Will edit comment after she sees it and we talk. If I finally get a bit of empathy from her on this topic that might just blow my mind into mega chunks. If not then whelp, I'll try to last through the college even though I kinda, sorta, *h a t e* it; and it's gnawing away at my love and will for art and the mediums I care about.

[@StormEngineer]

The sad thing is that the original meaning of fine art is any artwork whose purpose is just to please. That is, anything that's not an illustration, or technical drawing, or whatever. Rembrandt is fine art. Stan's painting on the wall behind him is fine art. - But then the "modern art" people came and hijacked the term, just like they hijacked "contemporary" which is supposed to mean any artists currently alive and working, rather than "what the snobs declare to be trendy".

[@MaTTheWish]

@@StormEngineer yeah I agree, I believe contemporary art and fine art in today's modern society is simply a way for the super-rich to money launder and evade taxes. Prices are set arbitrarily as some artists are just "knighted" I to the wierd world. Not to say some of the artists aren't talented. But of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[@BelaCurcio]

I’ve never heard of you guys before but this dynamic is hilarious and the advice stuck. I subbed

[@DanielKhuu]

This content is great, thank you so much! Can’t wait to hear about recreating art school

[@FuzzyImages]

Yu guys are now one of my favorite podcasts for when I am drawing Also, love Marcheal's commercial voice ^^

[@swivellogic]

Best quote ever, Marshall: “We have violated the Tao...”

[@julliannedlc]

I really needed this video. I'm an art major at my local community college (and it's true, I'm getting my education here for free), and I'm at that point where I'm thinking about transferring to a big expensive LA art school. I'm so anxious about finances, going in debt, and just getting a stable job in the end. This video really helped set my mind straight and give me direction, especially during quarantine right now when I have time to draw and practice, learn and grow. Thank you so so much.

[@ren-jp1fb]

what did you end up doing?

[@jonasal1795]

gotta love marshall. he's such a unique human

[@ColoredMud]

Loving the new art in the background!

[@ColoredMud]

I've been in a Comunity College for art for 2 years now (I'm graduating this December) and I don't really know where I'm going next. But I love being a student!

[@louisdebrat3620]

I miss art school just because I miss talking and exchanging sketchbooks with amazing teachers like Marshall during breaks. Good memories.

[@samichebili7620]

Good and funny episode, especially with the little arguing haha. Wouldn't mind longer episodes, you two can take your time with explanations !

[@thegingerunicorn178]

Sweetness. Looking forward to the future videos/podcasts

[@PuppetMaster8707]

OMG I laughed SO hard at that Thumbnail I'd be insane NOT to click it

[@zaphill4346]

I didn't went to art school (engineering school instead but has similar idea to it) and I lost lots of opportunities to grow and gain new skills to make myself feel confident that I can do the it (also no clear view of what I yearn/need in life). Like what Marshall said, instead of growing, I just went and panic over grades. I feel bad I didn't finish, but I wasn't TRULY satisfied with what I was becoming. So it was the best decision I made for myself.

[@MaciejCiupak]

Only Marshall can made me not wanna skip an ad. Legend.

[@cempaaxochitl]

I love you guys, thank you!! ❤️ always you make me laugh a lot 🤣

[@MrForestExplorer]

You chaps are a riot. This was entertaining. Bought and read "Rebel without a crew" before I went to film school. Great, inspiring book.

[@cesaraguilar5405]

This is so on time. I'm just starting my own online artschool education. Thank you so much!

[@richieray6619]

Any updates? I also just started 2 months ago.

[@cesaraguilar5405]

@@richieray6619 I'm also doing Croquis cafe everyday

[@mayahika]

@@cesaraguilar5405 can I have a link to it??

[@jamieg2427]

These two have such good chemistry. I SHIP IT!

[@kyleward9394]

Marshall is insanely insightful. Thanks guys

[@TheArtMentor]

This was an interesting discourse. I’m definitely watching part one now out of curiosity

[@carolineamstrup2463]

It’s really interesting hearing about the financial con of going to art school in the US, because for me as a Danish young artist.. I would get paid around 1000 USD a month to go to the art school that i have in mind.. so this would be an opportunity as a 19 year old (20/21 years old when i attend) to afford moving out and investing money into my small art brand Daydreamer. So yeah quite the opposite situation and a pro financially.

[@bristremel1554]

Art school in the US is overwhelmingly expensive. Art programs that I have investigated are, for international students, anywhere between about $20,000 and $50,000 US per four-month semester - so double or triple that amount per academic year, depending on whether there is a summer semester - and that does not include living expenses, supplies, etc - that is just tuition and living fees. Even if you'd be getting 1000/month to go there, it wouldn't put a dent in the debt you'd likely accrue, unless you can somehow afford to pay for it yourself, or if student funding in your country is non-repayable.

[@carolineamstrup2463]

@@bristremel1554 The art school I want to attend here in Denmark is free :) I only have to pay for some materials myself.

[@bristremel1554]

@@carolineamstrup2463 awesome! i mistook your first sentence there as requesting input about the cost of US - i see now you were just saying you find it interesting because of how different it is from Denmark?

[@carolineamstrup2463]

@@bristremel1554 no problem :) but yeah it's really interesting... and i guess also a part of the Danish goverment's plan to get us all educated as much as possible - and it works haha because everyone wants the money for studying :)

[@bristremel1554]

@@carolineamstrup2463 honestly it makes more sense to support people in the beginning stages. if you're really concerned about getting as many people working as possible, why wouldn't you?? the problem in countries like the US is they think the way to get money is to charge for it. they don't consider that in order for the most people possible to work and have jobs, they need to not be accruing $100k's worth of debt and paying for every single thing in their life when they're just starting out. all it does is increase debt, not just individually but nationally. Denmark has the right idea. i wish they'd do that in Canada too. in countries where education is 100% funded, there's a huge success rate. i don't know why other countries keep ignoring the evidence. i wish you the best with your training!

[@maxpitchkites]

Thank goodness, I was looking forward to seeing new Draftsmen thumbnails.

[@weinstocksart6155]

Art school is a good option in structure. The only downside i see is the price tage and its almost unforgivable.

[@markhousel2712]

Biggest downside for me was MOST of the art started to look the same in any given department.

[@wayfaringspacepoet]

structure can be good, but the time offered within this structure can be extremely restrictive and unforgiving, especially to those with disabilities - and even if these students have some sort of accommodation that allows for extensions, the fact that one's performance hinges on a grade value is ultimately what kills any of the satisfaction you get from being in school

[@ivanpaclibar1860]

this was actually really fun to listen to :)

[@Chloe2000mm]

My friend and I met a well known artist in the Pop Surrealist group and we asked her what we should do to start selling more art. She said "Do events!" It was the best advice we could have received. No degree can replace initiative and follow through. You just have to keep learning, exploring and experimenting as you go along.

[@TeagueChrystie]

This was great. Thanks y'all.

[@AdamBraus]

This is great, you guys are a hoot. Great audio btw! What kind of mic's are those?

[@CPShal]

Man, I could rant for days about how terrible of an idea going to art school was for me (and it didn't help that it was a notorious for-profit school.) At the very least, I'll say I've learned more through a casual browsing of the Proko anatomy videos than I did over the course of several drawing classes there. And that the only agreed-upon benefit from anyone who's gone there was a semi-defeated "well, I met some good people, and the teachers weren't bad!" So yeah, community and networking is king, even at a soul-sucking money pit of a sham school. But more importantly: I've been listening on Spotify, and this is not at all how I imagined the studio! I've been picturing a more neutral-dark recording room this whole time. My mind is blown. Also, I've been binge-listening at work, since my workplace is shut down yet they still have me all alone doing "monkey work." When it's time to go to sleep, my mind hears phantom Marshall voices just ranting about something-- like my subconscious has taken on his cadence. As a matter of fact, Marshall's voice is narrating this comment in my head as I type it. It's really weird.

[@judilynn9569]

I went to Art School. I did not graduate. Today, art is what I do. Most of my friends who graduated...are doing other things today.

[@emadmoussa2576]

I don't think you need a degree for art. I thought about it after high school, but decided to take the social science route. Today, I'm a practising artist, but I hold a PhD in political psychology and work in the field. You would probably need a degree if you want to teach art academically. But to be an established artist, you can be self-taught, and what matters in the end is your output. What helped me progress was art books, tutorials, and videos, and of course, PRACTICE. Although, sometimes I wish I had joined a classical art school. The trajectory and speed of progress would've been better, and the style probably more polished.

[@sonpanchan]

24:44 Best advice, Community College and the Internet helped me learn a lot of basic stuff when it came to drawing and painting and it was all either free or affordable. I also learned a lot in an art history class at my local community college that I otherwise wouldn't have learned on my own and I also found out I didn't like Graphic Design (which is where I initially wanted to work in).

[@joseh9254]

dude this podcast is awesoooooommmme

[@DanielRamos-wz6ff]

Marshalls ad narrations are a threat to my financial life

[@thomasmcbride9751]

only youtube channel in which I don't skip the sponsor ad

[@visualsweets]

I watched a KZbin video about an artist recently. The interviewer asked him how he got started selling his art. He asked about what type of education he had, etc. The artist said that after he retired, he was looking for a hobby. So he made a strategic plan to study art. He found a school and studied for a few years. Then he started creating art and now he’s selling his art. He was very straightforward about everything that he did which I thought was awesome since he started creating art after he retired. He created a plan and within a few years was selling and making money off his art.

[@thaismenezes7279]

It was really fun!!! I'm from Brazil and I have a degree and a post degree in law. I studied to be a lawyer cuz my family wanted me in a traditional career to find a very stable job, guess what, I cant find any job no matter how I try. I wish I didn't go to college, not to study law at least. I'm thinking of changing to an artistic career but I dont know if I want to get a degree, I lost 10 years of my life in college to not get a job and to be broke afterwards. I really wish I could work with something artistic but i don't really know what to do and I cant pay for it, i have a ton of debit already. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.

[@emilsinclair6202]

That was by far my favourite thumbnail from you guys

[@anoukadel6397]

1 & 2 should have been one episode. I listened to part one a few weeks ago, and now this one seems to start out of the blue & go nowhere. Only in the end when you talked about splitting them, it all started to make sense.

[@MosaicSplash]

I totally agree about if your parents can pay then there’s little reason to not go and try it out. I was one of those lucky people whose parents could pay. The only real downside to it now is when people message me online asking if they should go to art school I don’t feel like I can give them good advice because I just worry about how much crazy debt they’re putting themselves into. Mostly I emphasize that they need to make sure it’s definitely the school they wand and to make sure they completely understand what paying back that debt is going to look like before taking it on because six figure debt is no laughing matter

[@riverriverchang5487]

Is it only me who find their arguing so adorable??🤣

[@yyguuyg]

Yep, just you

[@Doggieworld3Show]

I am a CCS student (Detroit). Might be my last semester...not sure. Personal crap aside, the cost is phenomenal and you have to pull loans via FASFA or/and get scholarship. Makes you feel pretty special when there's such a financial and industrial gap. Work piles up but the people are great, and so are the connections. Faculty works/worked in the industries, are talented, and you want to look into that.

[@debbiesunlight7047]

Love these guys

[@Bluntzngreschtl]

I'm in teacher's education for art in Austria and they don't teach you anything useful when it comes to skills in drawing, painting or sculpting. I'm completely alone with my training as an artist. The focus is on being able to talk a lot and I mean a LOT about your project, then the project it's self. They don't give a dam how it looks, in terms of skill and execution, which is quite frustrating for me. In fact you have to defend a realistic piece of art way more, if you don't start making up a story that it's for some reason a statement for or against anything you want. I always jam when I have to talk about my project because I have zero interest to spend time thinking about it, I rather use my time for practice. The degree is just a piece of paper for me to be able to teach in highschool. At least I won't be broke and in debt when I'm finished because tuition in Austria is about 20€ for one semester.

[@valhazlife]

THAT SHAVING AD OMG AHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA I WAS LISTENING TO THIS WHILE I DRAW AND NOW IM DISTRACTED BUT WOW WHAT A GREAT AD LMAOOOO XDDD

[@Ed_Crumbs]

This is the funniest Draftsmen episode no one is gonna convince me otherwise 🤣

[@skymarshallmarz5573]

I have the equivalent of an associates in illustration. Didnt get the paper. I was taught a lot of valuable things in school which i always use. I know people who are very good who have and have not taken art college. My hat is off to both.

[@DennisPulido]

I wish I learned this sooner myself. I went to art school and yes the debt is insane. What I would recommend is either you get a more practical degree like engineering (instead of game design), architecture (instead of fine arts), or computer science (instead of web design), and go from there. The true value of a degree is that you can put on a resume that you have one, and that's enough. You learn more on self study and cheap workshops as college classes are paced in a way to only teach you the very basics and participate in projects that are easy to grade by the end of the short semester. That's not counting that you have no control on the quality of teachers, and mandatory and useless "general education" classes that they force you to take and pay for.

[@dankdegl612]

But that's specifically targeted towards the US. there's places around the world where there's free education and good teachers who's committed to the cause of fine arts

[@DennisPulido]

@@dankdegl612 Would love free education.

[@ivantruffle1529]

Just watching both of you arguing ying-yang stuff is fun XD

[@rocknroll605]

I love you marshall, thank you for your wisdom.

[@user-bl2dl9nr6f]

i just found your channel .i love you two together i watched james gurney last night so cool.thank you

[@louisackerman3220]

Visas can be confusing, so you might want to contact either the US house rep for your district or the offices of your US senators for assistance. They are often willing to contact the Department of State on your behalf to obtain needed clarification on visa application questions/issues.

[@wordforger]

I took exactly 2 art classes in (community) college. One was an oil painting class because that was the only medium I hadn't gotten a chance to try in High School/Junior High. The other was a Photoshop class because I needed a tech course and wanted to try out using a tablet and wanted access to the program. Most of what I learned about art beyond the basics I learned on my own. The basics I learned in High School, but could have learned on my own through books and the insane number of FREE online tutorials available.

[@crisjunfan2139]

This comment is about a year late, but just ran across this podcast so… Most boutique art schools - Name your city Institute of Art, are a huge waste of time and money in terms of developing skills and career prospects. They concentrate on self-expression and political statements. If that’s what you’re into then it may be for you. As a kid out of high school in the late 70’s I had 2 options in my city. The boutique art school and a 3 year art school that offered no degree but a kind of certificate of completion. In my mind at the time you had to have a degree. I applied to the local art institute and fortunately was denied because of my grades. I settled for my second choice of the 3 year art school, which was basically a trade school with all working artists in the field as instructors and where competent skills were stressed. Although I was disappointed at the time it was the best thing that ever could’ve happened. After graduating I was blessed to have a 40 year career in art in my dream job and continue to do art that I love. Let this be a lesson to any younger people when considering choices in art education.