DrHeemedOut vs Professor Flowers Debate Review | Vaush Reacts

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#DrHeemedOut #ProfessorFlowers

[@Heemed]

HOLY SHIT THAT'S ME!!! THANKS FOR THIS! It's awesome as a fan to watch Vaush react to my debate!

[@underwherewhore]

Pog! Just subbed. Really enjoyed the approach you took to this conversation and sorry it ended as soon as it did.

[@CPSPD]

hello drheemed from youtube channel drheemedout

[@Beowulf_DW]

You demonstrated the patience of a saint in this debate, while still driving at the core of the issue. Well done!

[@yoissy]

I really like way you handled this. To me your worrier seems really great

[@Wokenstein]

COLONIZER COLONIZER COLONIZER COLONIZER YOU ARE A COLONIZER! YOU ARE COLONIZER!

[@lizardsquared3443]

Conservatives: "Go back where you came from!" Professor Flowers: "Go back where you came from!" (But woke™)

[@elijahgavin6706]

“Go back to where you came from (but significantly higher kill/displacement count)”

[@whysocurious7366]

Completely different, no parallels confirmed

[@zvenarschficker6663]

Does she realize that her ass would be on a boat back to Africa too if the indigenous people wanted all the colonizers out?

[@zvenarschficker6663]

@@lzbngamer6351 I mean what if the Indigenous people don't care? Isn't the whole point PF is making is that they can and should be able to decide for themselves? Even if that choice includes ethnic cleansing?

[@treyalford5793]

It’s amazing how willfully ignorant you have to be to not see this as indigenous peoples taking what was literally stolen from them. The displacement isn’t the same. This is displacement to correct encroachment. That being said, I in no way subscribe to the idea that all people should (or ever will) be allowed to travel to all places with no restrictions.

[@Thutil]

"Know your place" "It's not [Vaush's] place... to debate the validity... of trans people" Okay my patience with Flowers has officially evaporated. Vaush being a lion in defense of trans rights is one of the things I like best about him, _as a trans person._ The implication that someone like Blaire White would have better justification to represent trans issues than Vaush is outrageous. Vaush a) does the research, b) is actually good at debates, c) is a white cis man which automatically gives him extra credibility in cisnormative, white supremacist societies (i.e. Vaush weaponizes his privilege), and d) Vaush actually does boost trans creators.

[@ieattheburger]

The thing is Blaire White isn't acting in good faith So cant really compare

[@Alkezo1]

@@ieattheburger And neither is Professor Flowers. So, I think this is an apt comparison.

[@OM-wl7qe]

He weaponizes his privilege alright

[@DevinMacGregor]

I just went round and round with person on rights who turns out to be trans. I asked specifically do you feel that Health Care is a right, IE Human Right. I asked if Marriage was a right? I then asked do you feel it was just and moral to then deny same sex couples the right to get married and enjoy all the legal benefits from it? Do you feel it was just and moral to deny interracial couples the right to get married? Instead I got, first we have to define what is a human right and then we have to define the methods we are going to use etc. Btw, that is the short version. I got a wall of text saying this. I could not get this person to commit to anything. They claimed they were trans and that I was just putting my foot in my mouth. Umm, ok Blair. They literally stated that minority groups were just playing with words to claim they were being oppressed. They said my questions were not real questions but talking points and loaded questions and that they are for things as long as no harm is being done. I was like FFS Marriage is a right that Heterosexuals enjoy. They had no clue of the legal ramification that come with marriage but instead went on this whole thing about what does it mean to be a man or a woman and how they believe why is the govt involved in marriage anyway, that is just dumb. I am thinking to myself, holy fuck, this person has no idea that marriage is a legal contract protected by the govt over the sharing of assets and liabilities which also includes acting on behalf of a Spouse which many same sex couples have been denied in the past because the bank or hospital does not recognize them as a married couple. So after 10 some exchanges the harm this person was talking about was to institutions like the nuclear family because I kept asking what harm to anyone was there in same sex or interracial couples getting married. He made a comment that racism was basically over because the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed and that same sex couples could have civic unions since the 80s even though it was not till 1967 that it was legal throughout the US for interracial couples to be married or even to have sex, it was not till 2015 that same sex couples could legally get married throughout the US and it was not even legal for any homosexual to legally be a homosexual throughout the US till 2003. OH, I asked if they felt slavery was immoral and unjust as it robbed the enslaved of their human rights. Answer should be an easy yes, since slavery happens today. This was when he said we first have to define human rights. It was also in context of the US as in our inception we had all this lofty language about men being free etc but we have slavery going on at the same time and even at our inception there was this rift of those who wanted to abolish it outright which northern states with outright or in phases ended slavery but the southern states did not. We eventually fought a war over it, IE State Rights to which Federal govt is supreme. He kept saying State Rights btw and I asked him could he elaborate because the term is a Neo-Confederate term. All he did was explain Federalism. So in the end this amoral person says they just follow the laws the majority votes in and that it is immoral for minority groups to want to change the definitions that majorities have held. Basically gave me the House Negro telling the Field Negro not to get too uppity or it will piss off the Massa. Know your place and wait over time till the Massa feels comfortable to change their definitions. "But it says all men are created equal." Now, do not get all snarky with me, that is the Massa's definition of freedom. You cannot be coming all up in here, acting all indignant and disrespecting the Massa's feelings by insisting on all this rapid change. Massa just cannot handle so much so fast. I am white AF and straight. I totally get what it is like to be marginalized but damn, Blair White is not alone. This person lives in Florida and their Dad is a Deputy Sheriff. Oh hey, he brought up BLM too. I never once mentioned parties or politicians but actual issues. So yeah, this person in now way, shape, or form should represent the trans community.

[@iron-mage]

One of the whole points of allies is to defend marginalised ppl so that we don’t constantly have to do it ourselves and to lend more legitimacy to us in the eyes of others lmao

[@edenp.1123]

" white people shouldnt talk for black people.... " *Proceeds to talk for indigenous people.*

[@Sound_Judgement]

As an indigenous American, I think Professor Flowers should listen to our voices before presuming to speak to us about what is “our land.”

[@reddawn1873]

You're not the only indigenous people in the world

[@SayaMulti]

@@reddawn1873 she literally was using native Americans as an example in her arguments

[@reddawn1873]

@@SayaMulti I only watched a bit And I'm pretty assuming she is talking about Africa

[@MegaBanne]

@@reddawn1873 But she is not African. The joke was that she was saying "I think they should listen to our voices before presuming to speak to us about what is 'our land'". She is not colonialized. She is systemically oppressed due to racism, which is due to slavery, which is an offshoot to colonialism. She is less a victim of colonialism than the Irish. They just recently became free from British colonial rule, and they are white. Yet they are somehow the colonizers in her eyes. Even the millions who fled the British induced potato famine. She likes to virtue signal at the cost of actual indigenous communities that has been oppressed due to colonialism. She is like those following the rastafari movement. They thought some random king of Ethiopia was their savior and would become the the fascist ruler of a continent sized African black ethnostate. So a bunch of black Jamaicans moved to Ethiopia, and the Ethiopians hate them. As if Africa wasn't made up of thousands of ethnicities with greatly varying cultures, but instead the only unifying factor was skin colour. They, though born on Jamaica and indoctrinated in to Jamaican culture, view them selves as colonialized Africans. She may have a cleaned up rhetoric about it, like those peace loving and justice promoting reggae songs, but they are all as racist and fucked up as any other ethnostate promoter.

[@reddawn1873]

@@MegaBanne I haven't no idea what you're talking about You are jumping out all over the place and I cannot care to keep up

[@AnimeGirlYaoiChan]

Her: Don't talk on black issues if you're not black Also her: *talks about stolen land/indigenous issues for her argument while not being indigenous* Not saying you can't per se but stay consistent at least

[@suckston]

i agree but its per se, just saying so some asshole will not hang on that next time you make a valid point with a little mistake.

[@AnimeGirlYaoiChan]

@@suckston Ty

[@dudeman5303]

That and she's literally using land back to avoid talking about what black separatism is. Land back isn't about kicking any people out, and yet she keeps saying "colonized people get to do what they think is right/fair", effectively arguing they should have the right to kick people out if they see it as appropriate - which is *pointless* to argue because indigenous people aren't trying to do that. Imo she is trying to pull a Jordan Peterson, she's trying to inject the idea in the discourse but wants to step back as if that's *not* what she meant. It's a motte and bailey and the whole purpose is to get people to start thinking we should do what she is suggesting. She literally keeps saying she doesn't want to speak for indigenous people but she's already misrepresenting them, that's FAR worse then speaking for them, and if you are speaking what they support I see no issue - she's only saying the whole bit about asking Indigenous people so she can somewhat fall back on it whenever people call her out for misrepresenting them including indigenous people themselves.

[@Richard-jm3um]

@@AnimeGirlYaoiChan Strider, can you introduce me to your brother? I have a huge crush on him...

[@daababy4205]

@@suckston what did they put initially?

[@gideon903]

I really don't like to pull this card, but here we go: As a Jewish person, it makes me a little uncomfortable when somebody starts talking about how certain ethnic groups have an intrinsic link to their homeland, and that violence can be justified to remove outsiders. The Jewish people don't have a "homeland" - not unless you count Israel, which I don't. Does that mean that ProfFlowers is fine with all violence against Jews, so long as it's in the name of removing outsiders?

[@darkmantlestudios]

And she wonders why she gets compared to fascists.

[@colleennewholy9026]

As an Indigenous person, who has many Jewish friends, or Jewish adjacent (diaspora born, who wasn't told their family has been formerly practicing Jewish), I feel deeply. Deeply uncomfortable with Professor Flowers saying "it's up to them to decide whether or not they want to remove people" Because like... Our forced removal, influenced He Who Shall Not Be Named's actions in Germany. Like I certainly don't want to kick anyone out. For Landback, I'd just like the Tribes to receive the payment, of land stolen and utilized. As was in the deals And, access to sacred sites. Without People asking what we're doing

[@qualivia]

As an Arabian man living in another country, I agree, but I can't speak for anyone.

[@ezachleewright2309]

I'm glad you said this, because this wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise.

[@LizStaples]

I think people get into this Us vs Them concept but the colonized have been colonized for so long they have to some degree integrated. So a if you kick everyone who is a "Colonizer" out you end up with like policing who is native enough. Also making all indegenous groups in the US as a hegemony who agree on what is most important is a huge misunderstanding of Native Americans. The Navajo nation has alot more pressing concerns than getting Mount Rushmore returned to the tribes it is holy to.

[@admiralpaco507]

I get really frustrated at "just listen to XYZ people". This is the same argument used by media when it comes to listening to the concerns of "rural white folks" or "blue collar workers". We can listen and understand where others are coming from but that doesn't mean we have to agree with their desires or solutions.

[@fnord3125]

agreed. also, no ethnic group is a monolith. exactly how would we go about asking a group of people, say Black South Africans or North American indigenous peoples for example, how they would like their colonizers "dealt with"? would there be a vote on a variety of options? would they elect a representative?

[@xenos_n.]

Why the hell do I care what indigenous people think happens to me? No, I was born here, I wanna stay here, this is my land as much as theirs now. Screw what they "want to do with me"; I'm home.

[@lurkingposter]

@@fnord3125 You listen to everyone but you're still biased and choose what ever position you like better. Jesus. This chick is has not thought out her arguments.

[@jonno9238]

True! Also, this is the primary breeding ground for anecdotal takes that grind down productive conversations in the long run. While there is merit in hearing people out. The idea of never stating your position until you've had your head properly filled with random peoples takes based on nothing more than their identifying traits can be highly counterproductive.

[@wile123456]

It's a non-arguements. The ideas and arguments of people matters, not their race

[@harlander-harpy]

This is an issue that I come across a lot in leftist spaces, but I think its SUPER weird that she kept bringing up trans people, like, please stop using us as a club to beat over other people's heads

[@thomasgillespie17]

Absolutely. She was doing the exact same thing she was accusing Vaush of. Absolutely disgusting.

[@HotBaraDad666]

@@thomasgillespie17 it's a thing called "projecting". You accuse someone of doing something you do, so that others attack them and not you.

[@pragmaticpolitics1413]

@@HotBaraDad666 conservatives love this tactic. Notable because she’s not a leftist she’s just a conservative except for black people

[@badwulff]

@@pragmaticpolitics1413 Honestly even when it comes _to_ black people she's probably conservative at the end of the day. I mean, she considered Heemed a white guy - a "real black person", to her, as an extension of that, probably just means a "black person that agrees with her". If she's not willing to defend the rights of black people in general, only those she doesn't consider "fake", she's not really progressive.

[@laurient]

The issue with PF's position is not that she thinks colonized cultures should have autonomy, but that she thinks they should have autonomy superseding moral boundaries. As if that group having the option to commit genocide/make an ethnostate is more important than the consequences of them actually making that choice. Her position goes way too far. No group should have the option of a forceful ethnostate, whether or not they would take it.

[@v_jef_]

God, thats such a fantastic and succinct way to say that. Hell yeah dude.

[@Gloomdrake]

Japan being an ethnostate doesn't seem to be going too well for them. I'm not sure why anyone would actively choose that

[@IMelkor42]

She's doing the basic, age old mistake of simplifying morality down to good Vs evil. The colonisers have identified themselves as being 'evil', because colonisation is 'evil'. Therefore the colonised people are 'good', by definition, and anything they do is, by definition, good.

[@zongzoogly4549]

I feel like I agree with her on the point that giving people their power back has to include the power for destruction, but I think she'd disagree with me on the fact that I think that includes an expectation to defend one's self in the event of a foreign invasion (as say, the consequence of enacting a genocide)

[@Gutterling]

PF thinks autonomy means doing whatever you want unopposed. If that is the case, then no country, group, or individual has ever had autonomy. Does she make the same case for nazi Germany's autonomy?

[@power1990]

Flames coming out of my face when she started with that "this should be coming from a [person with the marginalization we're talking about], not a debate bro" stuff. Do I look like I wanna wreck myself defending my right to exist to nazis and terfs and whatnot? FUCK NO, lady. I absolutely want Vaush saying trans rights, god damn.

[@jdprettynails]

It's almost as if that's the entire point of allyship. She's insufferable to listen to and it saddens me that there are so many leftists that I respect that outright defend her awful views purely because they don't like Vaush.

[@GeoNeilUK]

@@jdprettynails Don't respect anyone who will dump their principles over a personal grudge.

[@jdprettynails]

@@GeoNeilUK *sigh* Yeah, true.

[@stoneman472]

I mean you're right. Vocal advocates for marginalized people should be the people who have the personality to have those debates and arguments regardless if they're part of that marginalized group or not. A lot of my friends who are part of these groups are definitely not nearly as confrontational as my crazy ass is.

[@sarbe6625]

@@jdprettynails I wonder if she believes allies actually exist or not.

[@The_Chosen_Heretic]

The shit she said to Heem about how its “not his land” genuinely disgusted me.

[@ericdecker2914]

She claims to understand Land Back yet doesn’t realize that land ownership in and of itself is a colonial concept.

[@fotnite_]

wow it's almost like she's a xenophobic anti-immigrant pos, totally a progressive position that definitely isn't just the republican party but black

[@JDMI-]

Right? Should he not have immigrated then? He's only first generation. I wonder if pf thinks it's not too late to go back where he came from.

[@zleeven]

@@fotnite_ i legit argue with someone in the heem and serfs discussion that told me he would be ok with a white Christian country were they discriminate gay people. these people have the audacity to not what to be compared to white nationalists when i just had a discussion with one that defended white nationalism. anyone tell me how this is not defending white nationalism Supreme Kojo 1 day ago @Christopher Browne and just to add I'm not saying that getting away is the only way but understand some people don't have the emotional strength left to deal with it anymore and they need to move to environments and places were they can thrive It's as simple as that... Honestly I don't think we can change this system from within... I't be better for ppl that want to worship christ and hate on gays to have their own separate country and do that there then wasting our time trying to bring them on to our way of thinking...

[@Odinsday]

She is basically Stephen Miller but for black people

[@thomasdendtler4077]

34:22 Flowers first says she doesn't like white people talking on racism because "they should know their place." But right here she's literally trying to talk for indigenous people. She's putting words in their mouths. How hypocritical can you be?

[@floepiejane]

This

[@comyuse9103]

she realizes indigenous americans aren't black, right? and that indigenous has a real meaning, it isn't just a synonym for minority.

[@lalitthapa101]

@@comyuse9103 and that "land back" means she has to leave too😂

[@JallyJam]

@@comyuse9103 all Americans are now indigenous at this point, if they aren’t then what’s the minimum time frame for generations of decedents to become indigenous or is it just discovery? If so because a white man first landed on the moon does that mean whites are now the indigenous tribe of the moon and have the right to dictate what happens to their land? In all honesty looking at natives as weak farmers instead of the warrior cultures they were that constantly fought overland and committed genocides and had slaves is just a form of discrimination. They weren’t weak people, they lost due to certain advantages the Europeans had (btw they are just another tribe) and that’s what has happened across the planet, by all races and all cultures. If we are going to play the blame game then Africans would literally have all The original sins they first engaged in warfare, slavery, genocide etc etc etc which is super dangerous and dumb to apply the actions of previous generations to the current One. That’s what North Korea does. Although they are a socialist ethno state so maybe you’d like that.

[@dudeman5303]

@@lalitthapa101 that's the thing, if land back was a movement for an indigenous ethnostate, they'd be kicking black people out too. But that's besides the point because it's not a movement for an ethnostate and has nothing to do with displacing white people.

[@dildonius]

Holy shit, in the "Coming Up segments at the very beginning, when he said "once you start really thinking of the intricacies" and she seriously, unironically started fronting like he was fucking "mansplaining" to her absolutely shines a *FLOODLIGHT* on how weaselly she is. I mean holy shit, there's no way she didn't know what he was saying. People use "you" in a broad, generalized, nonspecific capacity literally all of the time. So to do the whole "Oh once _I_ start really thinking of the intricacies?! Duh duh duhhh!" bullshit is just a ridiculously transparent, weaselly, and slimy way to try and force him to shut up cuz she didn't like what he was saying. No two ways about it, and her history shows her to absoLUTELY be that *EXACT* kind of person, imho.

[@UnorthodoxIndividual]

The bad faith is staggering 💀 Then again what should we have expected? Girl literally said it’s morally justifiable to create an ethnostate by deporting people if they are the same race as the colonizers of a region 🥶

[@nymade4130]

I gave my opinion on her channel, called her an idiot multiple times, said she was insecure in her blackness, and said she spit on the legacy of Fred Hampton (which are all true btw) and I expected a bunch of hate, but credit to their community, they stick to their guns, since they saw I was black and actually didn’t dogpile me like everybody else who dared criticize the great Professor Flowers lmao. I can see how stupid people like her would love people saying every opinion they give is correct because of their identity, but for me it’s extremely patronizing for somebody to be like “yes king go off you’re right about everything because you’re black” because I went to school for this shit. I what people to actually listen to the information I’m giving, not just automatically agree without listening so they can go to their job and brag to their fellow yt coworkers about how they “support a revolutionary black activist” by watching Flowers and giving her a like. I’ve actually had yt kids tell me how woke they were for watching people with extreme views (namely Farrakhan) and I told them being like a self loathing white person doesn’t make you less racist, you’re just the race version of the guy who make self deprecating jokes thinking it will make people become sympathetic to their insecurities. By saying “I’m sorry I’m white guys I which I was an urban Nubian girl boss” not only is that kind of a micro agression it’s just kid of pathetic. But people like flowers thrive off those people. Black people are not leftists for the most part (I’m only like a few years into leftism myself) so the majority of people watching her videos are white. If she was actually as well liked by black people as she claimed and it was just the white debate bros who didn’t like her, she’d have like 2K views per video and almost no subs. She pretends to appeal to the entire black community when her community is the KZbin version of “I’m not racist I have a radical black friend”.

[@elbownio5820]

It was a slip on Heems end, he was walking on eggshells through this whole conversation. Its super obvious that PF hasn't examined her own ideas, and that she makes an effort to avoid critique and nuance, it feels like a very fundamentally conservative mindset. I don't want to do the identity politics shit but as a half white - half black indigenous person, her dumbass ethnic separatist beliefs are fundamentally at odds with my fcking existence. And her refusal to even address it when Heem brought up biracial people was just spit in my face.

[@zotaninoron3548]

@@elbownio5820 Agreed, she seems to engage in zero good faith self-reflection.

[@zacharypegg7051]

Came down here to say the same thing, but you put it better than I could have. As soon as I heard her say that in the intro bit, I actually had to pause the video and think about whether I have the patience to listen to that level of patronising bad faith

[@emilyrainflower25]

This is super hard to listen to because she’s just so unaware of her own lack of understanding of sociopolitical issues. She doesn’t even understand what her own views are, because of how much she contradicted herself. She just wants to hear herself talk and it’s so weird. The fact that in the vaush debate she didn’t want to answer his question about Palestine speaks volumes. Oppressed people can become oppressors actually and it’s not ethical to force people to leave an area because of their ethnicity. She’s not smart and it’s not funny or even annoying it’s embarrassing. I feel second hand embarrassment listening to her.

[@saf4433]

It's also dangerous. These ideas not only propagate unnecessary violence, it pushes more and more white people towards white nationalism when they see these people blatantly saying they'd be ok with their ethnic cleansing

[@darkphoenix2]

I think that's the crux of it really. Heem nailed it when he said "colonizer" and "colonized" don't have much bearing in the modern world, and her ideas of "benefiting from colonialism/white supremacy" are vague as hell. She doesn't seem to understand racism and avoids the main question of what it really means to give indigenous people their autonomy. Or even how to do that. It's all nebulous feel good ideas about atoning for white people being bad a long time ago

[@Yo-sb9st]

She un-ironically thinks white people are responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. Yikes

[@FelisImpurrator]

@Fuze A conservative one, obviously. She talks like every conservative pseudo-academic, right down to the original sin mentality for everyone except her "own kind". I mean, talking about it not being people's *place* to talk about race? Fucking a.

[@tuntejaable]

@@darkphoenix2 Apartheid ended in 1994. So not that long ago.

[@mommybat2941]

I really just think she’s insufferable. The minute someone is kinda saying she’s wrong she gets so so condescending like the tone in her voice is like she just thinks your stupid because you don’t see the one true way as she does. Like your just “not educated” like this guy talking to her is so so nice and she still was so high and mighty.

[@wiggledixbubsy98]

Blame the internet unironically. Tumblr, Twitter, and TikTok all farmed her and people like her through positive feedback loops of contradictory ideas

[@stoneman472]

It's because underneath all the layers, she's just a bitter and nasty person. Like, if the core itself is rotten then that will effect everything else she does.

[@hichaelhighers]

@@wiggledixbubsy98 There have always been tons of people like this. The internet might reinforce bad shit but didn't create it. People are just cringe.

[@spacekitty7971]

I lost it when she shared her modern definition of “colonizer,” I can’t even believe she actually just said it out loud lmao

[@johnpittman7762]

BRUH that was it.

[@secretxxstars]

I especially loved the "who DIRECTLY benefit from colonialism" part of it like gurl what does that even mean lmao?? is she saying that there are whites who only indirectly benefit from colonialism who can be spared?? or what

[@jameskilgour387]

Right? Wait till she finds out about Kosovo

[@GeekyC]

I blame TikTok for the colonizer thing

[@wiggledixbubsy98]

@@GeekyC it was black Twitter first

[@calebharris292]

I have an *actual* leftist movement, but you wouldn't know them they go to a different school

[@benjiboy69420]

😂

[@ghani666]

Underrated comment

[@michaelhomes8049]

A rare actual lol from this comment. Thank you!

[@Fredlyy]

Wow, a lot of progress was made in this. And by "this" I mean Mario Sunshine, not the actual debate of course

[@cybervoid8442]

😂😂

[@honeydumpling1863]

I feel like I just watched Mario crawl around in a wall for an hour

[@Cruizinelli12]

At least something was accomplished

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

@ms honey angry woman yells at cloud for being a colonizer

[@ElecTrishian924]

@@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869 Well, it *was* white

[@BigaloMax]

I love that she is still pro-kicking "colonizer" off of america but the moment he points out that she is TECHNICALLY a colonizer to if she owns property in the US she is all like "i mean... im sure they wouldn't kick ME out...im not white so im fine "

[@jeremyg7261]

Right. Like what if they tell her to get out of America? That’s totally fine to her? Or she just literally doesn’t think it will happen because she’s black. What if they don’t want black people? Where is she going to go? She’s so dumb and naive

[@emylily8266]

i wouldn't categorize enslaved ppls brought by force with their culture wiped out as colonizers tho, that said theyd probably be kicked out anyways if it came down to this insane scenario.

[@madeline5493]

Foreign overseas property buyers/investors being like “Just so we’re clear…we’re not colonizers because we’re not white, right?”

[@abigailfowler1843]

@@emylily8266 But according to her logic, she isn't native either. Likelihood, she'd be shipped out or shot as well.

[@emylily8266]

@@abigailfowler1843 her logic isn't strictly about nativism, but about an invading ethnicity that expropriates current ones. She focuses on white ppl because they were the most recent colonial powers, thus she generalizes it to every white looking ethnicity. i did say shed be kicked out as well, it cause deportation doesn't follow strict standards, even if the ruling government followed her ideas exactly. It's different = out and no doubt even some integrated native families would suffer as well.

[@rockduded8925]

Notice how when Heem tried to get her to articulate past the surface level of her advocacy that's when she decided she didn't feel like talking about it to him? It's almost like she has a ridiculously simple minded solution ("Just like, give the land back to them, man.") and never thought about any intricacies or consequences of her proposals.

[@Israel-nb7ip]

The fact that she can't give a succinct explanation of what colorism means in the broader black community, which should be a layup for someone out here talking about race the way she does, is a HUGE red flag. She preferred to run away than actually explore the issue of colorism within the context of her points. She simply falls apart under any type of basic scrutiny...the type of basic scrutiny that she should've anticipated and been prepared for. She comes off as a one trick poney or the proverbial content creator who's best when they can spout of on long diatribes on their channel with no resistance against their logical fallacies.

[@rockduded8925]

@@Israel-nb7ip Right, she's Nigel Tufnel, forever trying to explain why the amps have to go up to 11.

[@Israel-nb7ip]

@@rockduded8925 not sure who that is, forgive me. It's clear though that Prof Flowers has alot of maturing to do and also some real reading. She's out here talking very loudly but not saying much.

[@rockduded8925]

@@Israel-nb7ip It's from _This Is Spinal Tap._ The gist is that the dumbfuck guitarist of the band has all of his amps set up to go to 11 instead of 10, in case they need that extra push of volume. The guy interviewing him says "Why don't you just make 9 the norm and then you can push it to 10 if you need that little boost?" and Nigel just looks at him dumbfounded for a couple secs and says "These go to 11!"

[@desmondtheneworder918]

@@rockduded8925 Ok but that Nigel bit actually sounds funny as opposed to PF

[@isaiahthomas6744]

The whole debacle with PF summed up She has her own personal definition for what colonizer is and is bewildered others don’t understand it and is unable to defend her personal definition under scrutiny as it has multiple issues in it.

[@malum9478]

the truth: she just hates all white people--which is pretty funny since she's mixed--and wants an ethnostate, probably because her ex dumped her for a white girl at some point if i had to guess.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@malum9478 she's 100% black by white supremacists' logic. One drop and such. The modern concept of race in general is a holdover from American slavery, especially when it comes to whiteness

[@coladict]

But she admitted at least twice in this debate that her definition of "colonizer" is just "white person". To her those are interchangeable. It's because she can't morally defend her position that she tries to semantic it away.

[@TheNoodleGod9001]

​@@coladict Which, if anything, makes her beliefs SO MUCH WORSE! Like, if your idea of "remove colonisers" meant, like, kicking Leopuld the second's men out and overthrowing some oppressive regime then fantastic, but her idea of 'remove colonisers' is literally just 'commit ethnic cleansing against the ethnically impure' Kick out the people with the different skin colour because they "benefit from whiteness", as if that's a moral category.

[@almosthelpless9374]

She keeps referring to black people and herself interchangably as if she is the representative for all black people. This allows her to make an attempt to claim that when you're attacking her, you're attacking black people. No, I'm attacking you, your ideas, and other people that agree with those ideas.

[@Lanoira13]

I love how Heem straight up asked "So when a group settles on land first that makes it that groups forever and they get to decide who can live on it?" And she's like "well, no, of course not, BUT" And they just never brought that back up even though it's EXACTLY what she's saying. The only thing that could make it more word for word what she's saying is if you add "unless they're white".

[@Shtoops]

If she said yes to that she'd have to support Israel taking over Palestine and I don't think that's something that should be supported.

[@Lanoira13]

@@Shtoops Yeah no shit, neither should genocide. lol But that's literally her take.

[@Shtoops]

@@Lanoira13 and yet I somehow doubt that she supports Israel. Really makes you think 🤔🤔🤔

[@keyboardstalker4784]

@@Shtoops it’s because Israelis are white

[@dudeman5303]

And what's also annoying is, there aren't indigenous people trying to make the argument that the US belongs to them and them only, black separatism wishes to make a black ethnostate in north America - if land back was in any way similar they'd want to kick EVERYONE out including black people. Professor flowers is effectively giving indigenous people the right to kick her out of the US, even though no one is talking about doing so except for white and black separatists.

[@xanosghoul]

I like how she turn the simple argument of "don't normalize retaliatory genocide because obviously that's going to cause genocide." Into "Don't give black people civil rights because that will somehow cause genocide." And then went on to criticize Vaush for not being as good of a advocate against racism and white supremacy as she is.

[@OM-wl7qe]

What retaliatory genocide? I swear you people make up your own terminology as you go along

[@xanosghoul]

@@OM-wl7qe retaliation against white people for the acts of colonialism that a portion of white people took part in? It's not really hard to understand.

[@OM-wl7qe]

@@xanosghoul It's not hard to understand that when you take something that is not yours, the owner is entitled to get it back. I don't care that it has exchanged hands, it's still stolen property.

[@CPSPD]

@@OM-wl7qe this is literally one of the problems thats being brought to the forefront with the rhetoric, which you just seemed to use, over the past couple of weeks with this drama. why do you think "retaliatory genocide" automatically sits with "the owner... [getting] it back". we all agree on the latter being good. we all also agree that the former is bad, i hope. but you just unduly connected them by attaching them to the same concept of "the owner [being] entitled to get it back". additionally theres the second problem of this weird lack of a stopgap in PF's mind where somehow retaliatory violence isnt *actually* off the table if the indigenous group in question wants to enact it.

[@OM-wl7qe]

@@CPSPD I give up, you people couldn't be bothered to care. If you take someone's land, which often times is the only way they earn a living, you have to give it BACK! I don't know why you keep bringing up genocide and retaliation.

[@lewiskazzamo230]

As someone that is Native American I'd like to make a clear statement on this. The only people we want off our land are segregationist racist people, that includes people like Flowers. On a more serious note technically what DrHeemedOut said fits more what is traditionally thought of when with natives when it came to the land, in that it doesn't really "belong" to anyone that way.

[@LimeyLassen]

That's a really important point.

[@lewiskazzamo230]

@@aza3921 she isn't in opposition to if those that get land back go segregationist so not condemning is endorsing. She's dishonest and knows she can't flat out say what she wants.

[@lewiskazzamo230]

@@aza3921 But that's not what she's pushing for with her narratives so yeah cool, but that's not the subject really. Also she self reported, sorry but you can be racist on a personal level against white people, it's not "reverse racism" but it's still a form of racism. The fact she doesn't believe that is racist of her.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@aza3921 I’m, I’m sorry to ask but what’s Vaush Stan culture? And what did the other person say about the oil lines, I’ve read this again and nothing about it was mentioned.

[@Pragabond]

@@aza3921 Lmao my dude you are stanning so hard its adorable that you say you aren't a stan. But then again stans never know they're stans. If things are misconstrued its because PF is god awful at getting those points across if you want to say Vaush went too hard sure he might have I don't particularly think he did given how bad she was representing her points. If you fall apart under pressure and start to sound like you're not completely opposed to ethnic cleansing over and over and over and over people are going to understandably think you're morally okay with it as long as its the right color of skin doing it. She didn't watch Heem's videos but made lots of of assumptions about his stances and generally did so by misconstruing most of the shit he said in the least charitable way possible; pretending like he meant any jokes about whiteness are just evil racism when he obviously meant people making outright hateful jokes and being literal prejudiced bigots about white people. He had to fist fight her for like 10 minutes to get her to admit oh yeah black people can be hateful and bigoted towards white people and its bad which was the WHOLE POINT. Because she jumped to the least charitable possible position she could arrive at from what he said. Vaush gave her so many chances to just make it clear that under no circumstances is ethnic cleansing okay which should be an easy W for her to answer and she constantly repeated shit that sounded so insanely close to Tucker Carlson brand evasive dog whistles. Vaush: "ethnic cleansing is bad no one gets to do that" Tucker Carlson: "The people who own the land should have full autonomy to do as they see fit with who they allow in for the sake of their people". And that was her reply several times the closest she got to it was saying its cringe and kinda harsh. If you're saying ethnic cleansing is kinda harsh that's on you for sounding so wish washy about it again and again dude not on everyone else for not consuming your media. I've seen you all over this comment section and you're simping like she's your personal friend dude you need to step back from your parasocial relationship for real

[@tripledigit4835]

Am I the one who hears her say “black people” whenever it’s about her? Like when Vaush said she’s pro-genocide and akin to Nazis. She goes “black people are linked the Nazis when we talk about these issues” Like no, it’s not black people, it’s you. Vaush isn’t linking black people to Nazis, just you (PF) She thinks her position is the dominant one amongst black people and although I’m not black. I’m pretty confident most black or darker skinned people don’t agree and in fact strongly disagree with her positions

[@tripledigit4835]

@rekkter when did one person become the arbiter on an entire group of people?

[@laudmonroe1030]

@@tripledigit4835 welcome to being black.

[@tripledigit4835]

@@laudmonroe1030 I imagine it sucks to be grouped in with people like PF and others who assert their extreme views represent the black community in America

[@laudmonroe1030]

@@tripledigit4835 unfortunately she’s doing the same thing with white people. She has such an extreme hatred towards them, it’s insane. She’s just an overall horrible person.

[@bobtheball5384]

@@tripledigit4835 It really does suck tbh. Especially when you're trying to appeal to people who actually believe that the majority of black people hold the same worldview as Pf.

[@julielandherr4686]

"Listen to oppressed groups to let them inform you about the intricacies of their plights." "I just don't feel like explaining the intricacies of the plights of oppressed groups to you while you're here for the purpose of listening to me." Ten outta' ten. Really stuck that landing.

[@james_with_a_z]

What "it's not my job to educate you" does to a mf

[@Kekktye]

How is she this devoid of intersectional knowledge Her understanding of African struggle is like 5 decades old Her argument instantly falls apart the moment she meets a black person with Vaush's perspective, which definitely exists.

[@mariomurcia7509]

we could go even further, the amount of black people that DONT have her delusional takes far outnumber the ones that do.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I read it as 5 minutes old and was like "yeah that tracks"

[@tripledigit4835]

@@mariomurcia7509 you’re more likely to find a “trump lowered the black unemployment rate” black person in the US over “evict all not natives from the land” black person

[@soccerruben1]

My question is, WHERE ARE THEY? Where do I find a POC content creator (especially if they’re Black) AND they aren’t Black separatists? Where can we find a POC content creator that thinks in similar ways that PF does?

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

You mean like Sharkzero who criticised the sh%@t out of her when he was watching the Vaush debate

[@greatscornholio]

the whole “listen to indigenous people” line is, to me, a huge tell you’re not actually prepared to have the discussion you’re having. if you were, 1) you’d be saying specific people or activists within those communities you think people should listen to. we’re not talking about a hivemind here. there will be disagreements within it. i wouldn’t say “listen to trans people” and leave it at that, bc blaire white is trans but shouldn’t be listened to re: trans issues. she didn’t mention any people or works she thinks are worth referencing here. it reeks of “my entire worldview is informed by tweets and what sounds snappiest”. and 2) if you were prepared to have this discussion, you wouldn’t be deferring responsibility for your beliefs. you agreed to the discussion, you’re talking on the subject that pertains to indigenous people. if you’re gonna say “listen to them,” you had no reason to agree to the discussion in the first place. it’s so cowardly to agree to talk on a subject relevant to a marginalized group you’re not part of, and then back down from it like it’s not your place to have it. you signed up!!! god.

[@furiousapplesack]

She wants to create a scenario where nothing is off the table while taking no responsibility for the outcome, hands clean, end of story. Super simple.

[@lava172]

"Just listen to indigenous people" "Okay, as a whole they really don't want ethnic cleansing" ".......GIVE THEM THEIR LAND BACK"

[@greatcesari]

Her KZbin channel is jam-packed with psychopaths like her. It's these types who are destroying the left.

[@SalinaBabba8343]

As one who works with many and lives next to two families of indigenous people, returning the land to them is a terrible, terrible idea. It raises issues and questions. Would they even WANT that in the first place? Secondly, they lack the numbers and resources to administer a vast amount of land effectively. Some tribal cultures are extinct and their people long gone. So listening to her hammer that point like it's a miracle cure all is insane.

[@IBBMS]

The second one I agree with. The first one, I think the very obvious thing people are saying, and what people who argue in good faith recognize, is to listen to the prevailing opinions of said community. Sometimes they can be quantified via opinion polls, sometimes they can't.

[@override367]

Flowers' solution to colonialism is to do it again to people who had nothing to do with the original colonism

[@mariomurcia7509]

best interpretation of this debate

[@thomasdendtler4077]

Her whole ideology seems based of the whole "sins of the father" crap. Blaming white people for the atrocities of their 7th generation ancestors? Fvck that

[@Takokujin07]

@@thomasdendtler4077 Imagine personally owing money to a random stranger because of what happened hundreds of years ago

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@thomasdendtler4077 Yeah, it's a conservative argument, being made by a conservative who either grifts as a leftist or is deluded into thinking she's a leftist.

[@tuntejaable]

Apartheid ended in 1994 and many African countries became independent in the 70 and 80. So we are not really talking about hundreds of years ago.

[@Sound_Judgement]

I also think it’s important to add in that removing people based on race from indigenous spaces would certainly be on the table for a lot of indigenous people. I know of a couple of examples right now that back this up. I am a descendant of Cherokee people and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, but since I am not above a threshold of blood purity I cannot be a part of the Keetoowah Band, despite living in the same area as people of the Keetoowah Band. The reasoning is that because I am “not Cherokee enough” I am an outsider to the tribe, and shouldn’t be considered one. If this sort of people were to be given power over who can live on indigenous lands, with the basis being who is Native American by their standards, I would kicked out for racial reasons. Second, the Cherokee Nation currently has an ongoing issue with the membership of the Freedmen (African-American descendants of slaves held by Cherokee people who the Federal Gov. forced the Cherokee to accept as citizens after the Civil War). Some people see them as not being legitimate citizens for racial reasons, despite them having been citizens for multiple generations, the Cherokee having historically been a tribe that accepts people outside themselves into the tribe (the Longhair Clan exists specifically for this purpose), and the fact that many descendants of Freedmen have Cherokee ancestry. So the idea that ethnic cleansing would be completely off the table for indigenous peoples is simply not true: it’s more complicated than that and as a result people need to be allies to these oppressed peoples but not blindly in favor of whatever they decide. Some things should quite simply not be on the table as solutions, because they are not solutions and deeply harmful to millions of people.

[@LimeyLassen]

It's infantilizing.

[@robfl100]

White people not being allowed on reservations isn't really ethnic cleansing though. Whites can still live just about anywhere else in the country that isn't a reservation. The real ethnic cleansing scenario would be if all indigenous people decided that all white people living in North America have to leave because it's all stolen land.

[@Sound_Judgement]

@@robfl100 My point was to pose a hypothetical based on the attitudes I see prevalent in the indigenous community that I have personal experience with as a member, noting that this idea of Professor Flowers that somehow colonized people are immune to the kinds of bias and terrible ways of thinking that colonizing people have engaged in is terribly flawed. So we have to reckon with the fact that some ideas should not be up for consideration, not because I think the majority support them (or would in a hypothetical where indigenous people get to decide what happens, full stop), but because no one should be supporting them regardless. They are wrong and harmful to everyone, even the group doing them. And it’s not really good if one is pushing a version of giving indigenous people a decision where “if they decide ethnic cleansing is the way to go, that is their decision to make” is the implication. To clarify, I don’t know that you disagree with that or anything, but thought I might explain further what I was thinking.

[@Anima556]

@@robfl100 we all know that’s not a realistic scenario under any circumstance. That’s a straw man. Sacred lands should be given back Mount Rushmore’s fate should be decided by the tribes the land belongs to. Better protection of the citizens should be given.

[@robfl100]

@@Anima556 When did I ever say that was a realistic scenario? Sovereignty over land is something that would have to be worked out between them and the government as to what exactly constitutes "their land". Also only about a quarter of indigenous people in the US actually live on reserves, most live in integrated areas.

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

So if a native American walked up and said "your property is now mime because this was stolen from my ancestors" she would just immediately give it up and find somewhere else to live?

[@abigailfowler1843]

Weirdly enough, she probably thinks she's the exception to the rule.

[@yuseonahya]

Flowers failed to close off genocide as an option for decolonisation, this was a really weird choice when talking to Vaush. The problem was she seemed sincere in believing she had achieved that, even though it was left as an option for people who wanted to 'decolonise' themselves.

[@zen_tewmbs]

I honestly can’t tell if it’s better for PF if she’s purposefully being this disingenuous or if she’s just that divorced from reality.

[@calebharris292]

But it's amazing since something like "decolonizing america" would be a death sentence for indigenous people.

[@OM-wl7qe]

Lmao you don't what genocide is sis

[@zen_tewmbs]

@@OM-wl7qe LMAO you’re the one who doesn’t know what genocide is, flowers and Vaush literally described actions that are ethnic cleansing and genocide. And flowers repeatedly refused to take even genocide off the table.

[@OM-wl7qe]

@@zen_tewmbs What ethnic cleansing? What genocide? Lol

[@castillogrande8926]

Hey, indigenous person here, just wanted to say that her views are fucking reprehensible. Anyone that dances around whether or not genocide should be on the table has waived their right to call themselves a leftist. Michael Brooks once said something along the lines of "be kind to people, and relentless on systems." She could probably learn something from that. Because I care little for your race or ethnicity when what you advocate for is ostensibly just racism masquerading as liberation.

[@BurdFan]

What Flowers seems to be unable to grasp is that genocide and displacement ISN'T self-determination, by definition. It's literally determination over others. And her views on land *belonging* to people is just as much a part of the problem. The idea that land can be owned is also the reason that land can be stolen. Its the same logic that enables fascists to make 'might make right' arguments for conquest. If we just say that America belongs to its indigenous peoples, all were doing is changing the weights on a scale. The systems that enable white supremacy are still in place, and the scales can still shift back. It's the same logic that enables arguments for 'demographic replacement', that 'strangers' aren't welcome. If we truly want to get rid of these systems and ideas, we need to also acknowledge that land doesn't belong to anyone. There is no group that has a higher right to anywhere than any other group. You can't meaningfully challenge white supremacy otherwise.

[@noobist85]

Has she spoken to every single native community in this country and asked them what they want? Has she spent a single day living in a reservation? Some might say she has no right or place to speak on their behalf.

[@NIN0ID]

it's pretty ironic given how she went on and on about not speaking over other groups

[@colleennewholy9026]

She HAS NO RIGHT In speaking for us. Especially since there's SOOOO many recognized and un-recognized tribes I especially hated the video where she says "I speak for all colonized people" Like UGH

[@page8301]

I sincerely doubt she has any actual experience much less actual contact with Native Americans. I got the impression that she read some articles and decided to become an activist. In itself not even a bad thing but the way she presents herself makes me scratch my head. Well maybe I am wrong, I hope.

[@play-dohsallegory3368]

Had anyone tallied how many times she’s said some version of “listen to what [insert minority group] has to say” in lieu of saying a terrible thing she believes?

[@nasritahir8797]

Kinda an interesting hypocrisy now that i realize, she supports having everyone benefitting from colonization to be kicked out of native lands. But she avoids taking full responsibility if these people choose genocide as a method to remove people who benefit from colonization. Its really strange to see someone advocate for absolute merciless accountability on everyone else and yet she just kinda shirks away from it? She just 'supports their right' to decide possible genocide??

[@MDoorpsy]

Its the same as with abortion. Like, if a person does not personally support abortion, and would never do it themselves, but supports others' right to choose to do it, we understand that person is pro abortion. Same applies with genocide.

[@Mongrelntruder]

@@MDoorpsy pro choice. not pro abortion.

[@raak4070]

@@MDoorpsy that is not the same at all.

[@lydiafayre9806]

​@@MDoorpsy It's a dreadful analogy, because--to begin with--being pro-abortion isn't really a position at play in the abortion debate. Those of us who support the bodily autonomy of a pregnant person aren't happy an abortion is happening, because the optimum situation will always be not to get to the point of an unwanted pregnancy. I recognize the parallel you're trying to draw, but the genocide of sentient, autonomous human beings is simple not comparable to terminating a pregnancy.

[@Takokujin07]

@@MDoorpsy Wow what a comparison

[@Creslin321]

I've seen her clarifying tweet about her stance. And all she clarified was that she feels that the decision to kick out or not kick out "colonizers" should not be up to us, instead it should be up to the colonized people. So basically, put a gun in the hand of whatever indigenous people were colonized, and just pray they don't decide you are a colonizer and need to be deported. No thanks.

[@steve94183]

That fake laugh she does when Heem talked about thinking deeper about the issues is just ugh. The way she told Heem that Canada wasn't his land and he has no right to it was indistinguishable from the talking points of white nationalists. She's just a genuinely loathsome person.

[@IMatchoNation]

"I'm black sweaty, I know more about this than a lowly Persian ever could."

[@flipina]

I know this is a year late but when I heard that laugh, condescending.

[@noobist85]

I just think it be so funny if she ever spoke to an indigenous community, and disagreed with then on any major points, she would write them of as brainwashed or ignorant.

[@ProperlyGaming]

For sure

[@Holobrine]

“If white people talk about the possibility of indigenous people kicking out white people, that’s racist. If indigenous people talk about the possibility of indigenous people kicking out white people, that’s legit.” That’s such a nonsensical position to hold, holy shit. If they get to talk about it, so do I.

[@Gloomdrake]

Reminds me of how certain people seem to think that calling someone racist is more offensive than being racist

[@Xaphnir]

Haven't watched and didn't see live, let's see if this is how it goes: Not PF: "Ethnostates bad" PF: "But I didn't say ethnostates are good. Also, ethnostates good." Repeat ad infinitum.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Indigenous peoples can have a little ethnostate, as a treat.

[@josea.ram.457]

@@rainbowkrampus just a crumb of genocide as a treat.

[@saf4433]

Lmao, she literally said we should give full autonomy to indigenous people and hope they don't do ethnic cleansing, but they can if they want

[@IMatchoNation]

"The hwhites got to genocide, so it's only fair that you get to as well."

[@Gloomdrake]

@@IMatchoNation gah, they're literally the kinds of people the right fear-mongers about. "Anyone who claims they want to destroy oppression really just wants to reverse it." Not a great look

[@betterthanrae8137]

I feel like she is wasting opportunities to talk with large platforms. Instead of representing her honest opinions of delicate issues, she uses that time to be exclusionary and values peoples opinions on their race. it seems like she is more worried about WHO is communicating certain ideas, rather than WHAT is being communicated. If you're too good to inform people that you talk to, you can't really complain about misinformation.

[@lewiskazzamo230]

I mean she openly stated that here. Saying she might agree with something but it'd be better coming from someone that is black or trans when she talked about who can talk about things.

[@Akuyoko9001]

Yeah its a discussion where her response to every question is "ask the colonized people"

[@waffleman9299]

This is true. It is so frustrating to hear her say stuff like "people should stay in their lane" if they aren't marginalized and not speak on the matter. However, I think she forgot the some of the strongest allies in the civil rights movement were white. When the majority cares about the minorities rights being violated, the movement as a whole becomes stronger (A lot stronger than if it was just minorities). While it certainly helps and adds a voice the conversation to be the marginalized, I reject this notion that if you aren't (insert identity) you can't speak about this. The fight for racial equality is far from over and we need everyone.

[@turbaecarissimus9752]

Her honest opinions are abhorrent, and she probably receives/received pushback from anyone that she brings them up with that doesn't already agree with her, so she doesn't want to voice her opinions in their entirety. She literally thinks that colonizer = white, and not only will white people push back against that, but so will a majority of black people. Instead of realizing that her bigotry is wrong, she's built up barriers in her mind, and couches it in woke-speak.

[@MarieAvora]

It's like the only position she has, the ONLY bit of information that her entire "ideology' is based on, is that "what whites did to the indigenous people of America was really bad" She answers every question with that, and the only solution she can provide is "well ask indigenous people" because she has nothing else, no policy proposals, no ideology, no framework, nothing more than "the conquest of America was bad" - which, okay, yeah, sure, we can go agree on that, but what the hell do we do now? "Virtue signaling" sounds like an apt description here, because she doesn't have any kind of path forward to making the world better. All she's doing is telling everyone how well read she is on the suffering of these people, and she's so close to being honest about that. There's all that, and the fact that she has the mindset of a 19th century European, where the only thing that matters is giving "nations" the right of self-determination, and, well, Europeans have had the entire 20th century to explore why that wasn't such a good fucking idea

[@Lanoira13]

Her one and only position is colonized people should be allowed to do a genocide if they want to AS LONG AS they aren't white. Shit sure she wouldn't be okay with the descendants of Celtic Britons getting together to practice their own autonomy over their conquered lands and who now lives on them.

[@consciousrat1416]

I think she would support genocide. Honestly how are people even confused about this. Like, she looks at these issues in such a ridiculously authoritarian capacity

[@dildonius]

She 100% would. And I hate how disinterested people are in situations like this. Everyone knows that in this day and age, being a proponent of genocide or ethnic cleansing or mass murder or mass deportation etc is incredibly taboo and anyone who would openly advocate for such things would be immediately ostracized and anyone who they were trying to bring to their side would immediately leave. And since those people also know that, they know to never openly admit that they hold those positions but rather use dogwhistles and indirect phraseology and use intentionally vague, indirect, weaselly language. And they know that, when trying to recruit people, they need to never lead with all that stuff, but rather gradually nudge them closer, bit by bit & planting hate-seeds until they've been nudged far enough for them to be able to drop all pretense. And most people, especially politically knowledgeable people, know these things too. So anyone who acts like she doesn't support genocide and ethnic cleansing, or even just gets all wishy-washy and says that it's "unclear" if she does or doesn't is just flat-oot lying to theyselveses.

[@zen_tewmbs]

“But she said genocide bad! How can she be a genocide supporter if she said genocide bad?”

[@calebharris292]

@@zen_tewmbs "oh I disavow ;)" alt-righters and pf

[@heavysystemsinc.]

The only reason she'd support genocide is that she thinks she wouldn't be genocided. She would be one of the first to go in her own land-back scenario where indigenous folks decide to do the genocide. She's as welcome as the 'colonizers' in her own example.

[@WhatAMagician]

Is it necessary to humor people with such nonsensical opinions? Like why do people insist on treating people like Flowers with any kind of seriousness?

[@xenos_n.]

Because she's a leftist black woman. You dare say anything against her you're a colonist.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Idpol. Plain and simple.

[@slashess69]

unfortunately because others will do that anyway

[@mileshill7196]

We have to push back at nonsense like this lest it spread too far and fast and we lose control of messaging for our side.

[@danebeee1]

Simple answer is optics. Meaning if you and her are debating live in front of a audience than most if the time it looks better to not shit on her, even though she deserves that and much more.

[@unknownuser41190]

In all honesty, when her first 2 videos about Vaush came out, I was on her side. That was until I seen her talk with Vaush. Then I was firmly 100% on Vaush's side. And I don't even watch Vaush that much.

[@stellarrevolt3389]

^

[@badabingbing474]

It's not hard disagreeing with her when she's pushed on her ideas

[@zen_tewmbs]

I’m glad to hear that. We don’t have to agree on everything, but I am grateful we live in a shared reality. I’ve spoken with some folks who dug in deeper after PFs talk to Vaush - claiming without evidence that he was being condescending and constantly talking over both PF and the woman he spoke to that triggered the first PF video. They were… quite deranged, and one refused to back down from any point even when they brought in transcripts and time stamps that disproved their own points.

[@Nana-wi4gi]

Eh I kinda agree with her about the fear of retribution thing

[@zen_tewmbs]

@@Nana-wi4gi seriously asking: how is holding minority communities to the normal international standard of “don’t do genocides and ethnic cleansings” a “fear of retribution” thing? Isn’t that just… what every country should be doing, and a line that any country should be criticized/sanctioned/held to account when that line is crossed?

[@sandshark2]

Using black twitter as some unidentified force of nature once again shows Flowers’ lack of humanization with anyone. All she sees are entities, not real humans

[@Painocus]

I just want to hear her tell an older Sami person who were still being subjected to cultural genocide just some decades ago that they are more of a colonizer then her, an American, because they are white skinned.

[@Liquidsback]

Have her tell that to a Pontic Greek.

[@tuntejaable]

Sami people are indigenous people and she always talks about indigenous peoples right. So she would actually allow Sami people to choose what's done with their right. So it's not really about race since Indians are not black ether. Let's be fair with our criticism

[@stevenheibner]

@@tuntejaable she literally said colonizers=white, though. She's racist. That's a fair criticism.

[@tuntejaable]

@@stevenheibner Lool Sami people are indigenous people the Nordic people didn't consider them to be white

[@pataki2666]

True. Based on what she has said I wouldn't trust her to be nuanced. It feels like either she'd go with 'indigenous" and leave it at that, or start to try and judge how much privilege they have compaired to other indigenous groups since they have an easier time blending in, benefiting from whiteness, yadda-yadda...

[@uglywaifu5770]

I’m at least 95% positive that she deleted most of the negative comments on her video going over the debate with Vaush.

[@lurkingposter]

Or muted them.

[@darkmetal2412]

I think she deleted mine, but maybe it's just shitty internet connection on my part I honestly can't say

[@raynabaeley]

I made a comment about her inconsistent ideologies and that justifying genocide as a last resort solution for oppressed groups is dangerous, as it was what led to the Rwandan genocide. It's gone now lol

[@lurkingposter]

Looks like my comments haven't been muted or removed. I made a comment describing PF's definition of colonizer and I'm still getting replies from poeple that think that definition is wrong, proceed to state Vaush's definition and then they say Vaush doesn't understand what colonizer means. The cognitive dissonance is strong with these poeple. Lol.

[@OM-wl7qe]

Nope Vaush's committed army of trolls is still plaguing her comment section 🙄

[@marcananmh]

Imagine being a Vaush fan that subbed to pf LMAO. She literally said she doesn't want you subbed to her because, and I'm quoting her directly, "i don't want those type of people anywhere near me". What an anti-racist thing to say 😂.

[@jjuicynews]

the lack of self awareness from her is outstanding

[@marcananmh]

@@jjuicynews yeah nothing screams, "i want to end racism" than just assuming people aren't worth your time because they like a white content creator.

[@jjuicynews]

@@marcananmh her whole theory is really outrageous like what about all the tribes that were conquered by the indigenous people before European colonizers came over to America. Or like for example in Germany are we supposed to get the land back to the barbarians around there thousands of years ago. it preposterous conversation from someone who has an utterly delusional take on history clearly doesn’t understand nuance behind her own take. and I love how she basically defends the point by saying “if they want to do a genocide they have the right to.” Whyyyyyyy is this our timeline

[@wafflepoet5437]

Don’t take this as some kind of defense of Flowers, she’s dangerous as fuck. However, I think it’s ridiculous to assume she didn’t want anyone from this community to join hers because she thinks we’re all _white_ . She just thinks we’re all racist (or “self- hating” POC) settler colonist pseudo-leftists because we, you know, broadly speaking, don’t proudly fuck with ethnic cleansing.

[@jjuicynews]

@@wafflepoet5437 I get your point but you can’t take someone in good faith when they’re bad faith themselves imo

[@leviathan0232]

She has such a juvenile understanding of how the world works. It’s honestly sad to see.

[@connorsullivan1855]

I think that's the best way to describe her world view. She thinks everyone should be given full control over their ancestral homeland, without realizing that the idea of ancestral homeland has a ton of problematic implications. For example what happens when multiple groups claim the same land? How far back do you have to go to have a claim to an area? I am pretty sure she thinks before Columbus reached America, all cultures lived in distinct humongous nations, like it's Avatar or some other kids' show.

[@Estradiol_Gaming]

@@connorsullivan1855 I really wished someone asked her what she thought about europeans against refugees. Given that she only seems to care about who's ancestors were there first it would put her in a tough place.

[@connorsullivan1855]

@@Estradiol_Gaming While I agree it would be good topic to push her on, she would probably just claim that it's different because Europeans (all of them collectively despite having many separate governments) are to blame for the refugee crisis, so therefore it wrong for them to be against resettle refugees. Meanwhile, she probably thinks all conflicts in Africa are the result of European imperialism so therefore it's fine if they refuse to let refugees from nearby countries move into their country. Don't get me wrong, historical and culture context is very important when discussing and comparing issues in different countries, but Professor Flowers seems to have zero interest in actually having a nuanced discussion and just wants talk, followed by everyone telling her she is right.

[@tristinmckinstry6467]

I really hope PF doesn't just talk in circles in this debate but I feel like this is more wishful thinking.

[@mariomurcia7509]

you were unfortunately correct in that initial assessment

[@hadronoftheseus8829]

Does anyone know exactly what academic discipline "professor" Flowers claims to be formally trained in? I'm _extremely_ skeptical that she is in fact any kind of professor.

[@jansettler4828]

@@hadronoftheseus8829 She got a PhD in racism.

[@Discojericho]

@azimuth Its kinda hard to get over the ''ok with genocide'' part of peoples beliefs just to make progress in a conversation.

[@ProperlyGaming]

@@Discojericho yeah, you sort of close allot of doors when you give the "hey I don't like genocide but if the colonized wanna genocide then it is what it is" take.

[@starkravingmad31]

What "professor" flowers doesn't understand is that for the most part, indigenous people follow DrHeemedOut's take in that no one "owns" land. We all share this land and no one should claim ownership of it. Ownership of land, regardless of who owns it, is such a colonizer concept.

[@hellraiser5671]

It really shows that flowers doesn't even know what your argument even was after all this time.

[@soccerruben1]

She’s like Jackson Stinkle but not only Black, but a Black **Separatist**.

[@ExiledSummoner]

Aight I tried to but after weeks of giving her the benefit of the doubt. I have come to the conclusion that I do not like this woman.

[@BrandonPilcher]

I'd like to add that the line between "colonizer" and "indigenous" can get blurry the further back you go since people have been migrating forever. For example, most Black South Africans can trace their roots to Bantu-speaking migrants who came from the region of modern Cameroon between three and four thousand years ago, absorbing or displacing numerous other ethnic groups (e.g. the San and Khoikhoi) as they spread across the region. Analogously, it's possible that there was a "Population Y" that entered the Americas from Eurasia several millennia before the forerunners of modern Native Americans---genetic traces of ancestry from the former group have been found in both some South American Natives and Aboriginal Australasians. And then, of course, there's the whole issue of modern Homo sapiens moving into Neanderthal and Denisovan territory in Eurasia from Africa between 50,000 and 70,000 years ago. Point being, we're all descended from colonizers in the end. What matters, in the end, is dismantling current systems of oppression.

[@Takokujin07]

Joke’s on everyone, we all come from Pangea, checkmate racists

[@Gloomdrake]

@@Takokujin07 I think Pangaea separated quite a bit before humans evolved, unless we're counting our pre-homo sapiens ancestor species

[@AngelofEresos]

It's all ameoba land, we gotta give it all back to the single celled organisms, guys.

[@dillydilly1595]

One of the problems I have with professor flowers is that she says, “people don’t understand about colonization and racism so that’s why they disagree with me.” but what if we do and still disagree with her?

[@yoloswaggins7121]

Exactly what does that even mean? I am aware of racism colonisation, I just don't see how that justifies her positions.

[@NeoIsrafil]

Jesus... you really took it easy on that psycho, and she still has the gall to come at you.

[@oldstatueface6317]

Imagine a world where the "Educate yourself on why you need my permission to speak!" vibe has gone back wherever the fuck it came from. Well done, you just imagined a better world.

[@saljm697]

"So you think its ok to make fun of white people for being white?" "NO!" "Oh, would you explain what I got wrong about that?" "NO!"

[@Parmetheus]

It's the condensation. Like, it's sooo obvious, and it's not worth her effort to try to clarify.

[@PerplexedPlayers]

why is it so hard for people to acknowledge anti white racism. I get that it isn't going to be as harmful as racism against marginalized people, but does that really mean ill mannered stereotypes suddenly aren't racist anymore because the subject is a white person? I really hate that some people will hide behind the more complex definitions of racism and use them as an excuse to have double standards for how they treat people. It seems to invite a sort of "racism for me but not for thee" mentality in people who want the right to dish out verbal abuse while avoiding the same being done to them.

[@PerplexedPlayers]

@@Parmetheus I think auto correct might have screwed you on that one

[@Parmetheus]

@@PerplexedPlayers D'oh! 🤦

[@TheAutisticBrewer]

Her answer to "Is a black english person immigrating from the UK a colonizer?" is SO TELLING of her racist views. Like HOLY SHIT.

[@zotaninoron3548]

Her 'leftism' reminds me of a former evangelical trying to be the caricature of atheism they grew up with their whole life as defined by evangelicals. Its like she grew up in a conservative household and is rebelling against that by being the caricature conservatives believe.

[@alliandrablack7751]

You hit on an aspect of something that really irked me about this particular "discussion." She really does sound like she has never talked to someone of indigenous descent, and that's unfortunately true of almost everyone that tries to make the same hollow virtue signal to advocate for whatever bullshit they're pushing. I imagine it's so common because there really just isn't enough of us for people to get to know. People like Flowers speak on our behalf in the exact same racist manner that ignorant fuckwits will just before someone tells them, "You do know that indigenous tribes are still around, don't you?" It's all that same cringey disassociated trundling through a poorly conceived idea. She says so many times, "Well you have to ask indigenous people what they want," when she clearly hasn't made a single fucking effort to ask one herself. Disgusting.

[@robynsummer7068]

When people say "listen to XYZ people", they mean "listen to XYZ people who agree with me".

[@GamezJohn]

She doesn't want a discussion, she just wants a platform...

[@jjuicynews]

I just want to add I live in an indigenous community and one of my best friends and my girlfriend is half black and half native and speaking from them this literally isn’t comparable to what the tribe wants to do. Usually native tribes want their history to be recognized and taught and they want to still be “paid their dues”by the government and I’m speaking personally from the Navajo tribe in Arizona and other surrounding tribes in the Arizona region but it’s like she doesn’t know because she’s never talked to anyone that’s indigenous she has no idea. and those are their words not mine.

[@midnightnavigator]

So much for that "Talk to these people before you have an opinion" she was going on about earlier. I agree, I grew up near a native family (I dunno what tribe) but the grandmother (yaya) was mostly upset that her language was disappearing, non of her kids or grandkids spoke it fluently. I really think America owes indigenous history being taught and not misrepresented or disrespected. ( like Columbus day, The Washington red skins, etc.) And for us to give a shit about them (like in missing woman's cases) I feel like that would be far more valuable then retaking over America or getting back at colonizers and doing genocide back.

[@jjuicynews]

@@midnightnavigator great insight and i appreciate the reply!

[@floepiejane]

She has no idea of all the colonizing and genocide that some tribes committed on other tribes.

[@AngelofEresos]

I'd be genuinely enchanted to have learned some Native history in school. Going over the same boring story of how a bunch of brave men in powdered wigs killed other brave men in powdered wigs one less time to instead talk about oft forgotten stories, and fascinating cultures? That would be the raddest shit.

[@R_AM02]

I really liked the little bits of Professor Flower's content that I had seen before, and it just sucks because not only did I defend her before the debate, but it isn't easy to find black creators on here. I have to actively seek them out and then hope to god that I agree with their ideals and like the type of content they make. I just wanna see and hear someone who looks like me sometimes and it just sucks cause I'm barely ever about to see that. I think Shark3ozero said it best, "I was just disappointed by the end of it". that's how I feel, disappointed

[@raak4070]

I like f.d signifier, and shark30zero. I've heard good things about intelexual media

[@R_AM02]

@@raak4070 thank you, I follow FD and Shark already, but I'll be sure to give Intellectual a try to

[@soccerruben1]

Wait, did Shark3ozero reviewed this or the Vaush debate with PF? ‘Cause I was worried he would side with PF like how Joe Lewis would, Sadge.

[@slicesunshine2140]

@@R_AM02 I've always liked Melina Pendulum since I was young. While I haven't agreed with her every take, I always like hearing her opinion, especially because she tries to show respect to what other potential opinions in the room would be without shrinking from her own. I also grew up watching Nathan Zed too.

[@ochockart2104]

you might want to look at saint andrewism, He has some awesome videos on climate change and solarpunk

[@xzygy]

It’s not a white mans place to talk about black issues, so anyways, about indigenous people…

[@mechanomics2649]

"It's not that complicated but I'm unable to explain it within the hour we've talked and I'm not interested in defending my position. I just want to spout my rhetoric without any opposition."

[@Fluttersniper]

Vaush’s debate with Professor Flowers was the most good faith debate I’ve ever seen, but she’s STILL upset about it. 😓

[@raunetteelkins8698]

I really like the content. Watching debates can be so boring sometimes so I appreciate the visuals of the gameplay. edit: How come I feel I know more about legal issues on reservations from watching Thunderheart and a documentary about domestic violence than Prof. Flowers even tho she's here speaking about indigenous people? I thought she said you shouldn't if you're not one. It's awfully presumptuous of her by her own standards.

[@alliandrablack7751]

That's actually a really good point. Thunderheart touches on the modern issues that tribal nations face today in regard to the federal government, unlike Flowers who continues to fall on, "Well their land was stolen, and that's the only injustice they've continued to face through the centuries." She has no fucking clue what modern oppression indigenous people face today, and in even the last 50 years. It's all this vague gesturing to being colonized by European nations, rather than something tangible, like land deals being broken by the federal government, or the DEA burning crops meant to make food and building materials before industrial hemp was legalized. If she wanted to talk about something specific regarding the oppression we face, she'd say it, but she'd rather use us to bolster her disgustingly racist ideas because white people tend to be so ignorant of the desires of Natives that they usually default to listening to whoever has the most melanin in the conversation.

[@HP-sq2fp]

A lot of these convos always boil down to “colonization was wrong and shouldn’t have happened!” and I just wish that for once someone’s response would be “well it did” 🤦🏻 you can tell when someone doesn’t actually care about rectifying the issues of today’s world when all they go back to is what happened in the past. Because they know that no one can change the past, so it’s an easy go-to when you want to stall any meaningful conversation. It’s easy to complain about how mean the past was, it’s more difficult to actually think about solutions for the now. Yeah, indigenous peoples lands shouldn’t have been taken. But they were. And millions of people live on those lands NOW, so we need to figure out a way to coexist. But people like her don’t want to coexist fundamentally so it’s whatever I guess

[@angryretailbanker5103]

41:30 She LITERALLY says that if a race of people don't have the autonomy to commit genocide, then they don't have full autonomy! I support full autonomy, but this is a really weird hurdle to want to cross.

[@Trode22]

My god the condescension from Flowers is unbelievable this is what Vaush meant when he said women on the left can get away with anything

[@lzmunch]

33:32 i feel like theres a lot of moral implications of where all these people go. Where do they "belong"? Where is "their land"? My parents are immigrants and it feels weird to me to claim that i have ownership over a place that i have very little connection to. How is it fair that you are born into a position where you do not have the right to decide where you live? Even if "itll never happen" why is it okay that it is a possibility? I feel like there are edge cases where you could argue this but intuition alone doesnt give good answers here.

[@kylefleming7680]

Of my 8 great grandparents who were sort of part of the colonists in my country they have 16 different ancestries where 2 of them are indigenous. Not a single one of the countries my ancestors come from recognise me as a citizen except the country I was born in. What do?

[@seleckcka7104]

Second or furtheron generation immigrants tend to get ignored in such discussions despite often being a massive chunck of the population and the main victims of such ideologies. If nationalists had their way they would probably kick me out to live in a country where I barerly speak the language and share little of the culture. Such group based ideologies pretend that the people fall into their neat little circles they like to imagine and can´t or won´t even fathom how broad and diffused those edges actually are.

[@OM-wl7qe]

If your parents aren't shameless land thieves then what are you worried about?

[@seleckcka7104]

@@OM-wl7qe Sure once the lines are being drawn and people are about to getting kicked out at mass from whatever country I´ll send them to youtube commentator O M who guranteed that it will go just fine since only "land thieves" will be the ones to suffer. Xenophobia ain´t based on rationalism and will never just end at whatever pointless online promises people make up.

[@OM-wl7qe]

@@seleckcka7104 I didn't promise you anything. Also, land repatriation is not xenophobia, it will never be xenophobia.

[@AshMos]

I genuinely want to see a debate with her and an actual indigenous person who disagrees with her. She’ll contradict herself so quickly

[@cloudstrife746]

Flowers always comes off preformatively confident and it always reinforces my thought that she is a deeply insecure person. like a female Jackson Hinkle

[@rainbowkrampus]

Who? Do you mean Jakeson Krankle?

[@MDoorpsy]

Jackson is in his own tier of dumb.

[@ericdecker2914]

Rainbow Krampus jabeson ahnkie

[@askoldir4538]

To be fair, Vaush does the same performative confidence and it also makes him look really stupid when he has a completely ridiculous idea and he's ready to die on the hill. He even made a video recently on performative confidence. I'm not saying people should bend over backwards to the complete fucking idiocy of the internet horde, God no, just that the issues performative confidence extend to Vaush and aren't necessarily indicative of deep insecurity either, but might be an intentional persona put on for strategic reasons.

[@cloudstrife746]

@@askoldir4538 tbf my friend you do make a good point

[@angryretailbanker5103]

33:29 She believes that America belongs to indigenous people, rather than land in general belonging to people in general. While I understand how this could be immediately agreeable for someone who knows the history of white colonization of the Western Hemisphere, how is it any different than white ethno-nationalists saying "Europe for the Europeans, Africa for the Africans, and Asia for the Asians"?

[@WendingWind]

if ten people just waltzed into your home, took over all the appliances and furniture and made you sleep in a boiler cupboard with scraps from the table, after a year could it be said your family home belongs to people in general?

[@angryretailbanker5103]

@@WendingWind No. Good thing that’s obviously not relevant here.

[@WendingWind]

@@angryretailbanker5103 Well, it's an oversimplified analogy for the ongoing occupation of indigenous land, perhaps useless. Nothing in Europe is really analogous since there aren't any European countries where the natives are a disenfranchised minority. They tend to be more class based issues. I don't know enough about African affairs, but essentially many have deposed direct colonial rule and now suffer under global capitalist exploitation, so taking back land wasn't the end of colonisation.

[@angryretailbanker5103]

@@WendingWind Agreed that the analogy is useless. Regardless, she’s still engaging in the same “This land for these people” philosophy that white nationalists do.

[@deeksha1141]

There's something weird about online spaces, I disagree with vaush on A LOT of things, but why does this have to lead to hating vaush. We can disagree and not hate the same person?

[@soccerruben1]

It’s because of VDS.

[@StudioNama]

She didn't wanna talk about colorism because it triggered 'Nam flashbacks.

[@michaelpsellos2560]

Her saying that a Black Person from England moving to the US would not benefit from colonialism but a white first gen immigrant would is insane

[@MOME914]

That black woman is traumatized by her experience. Not saying she should get a pass, but just know that black people quite often come to these views from a place of deep pain. As a black man from NYC, from my experience most black people have similar views, or even more conservative. The FBI wiped out most of the leftist tradition from our community when it took down the Panthers.

[@darryljack6612]

This should be main channel content Vaush.

[@xenos_n.]

I mean it's all main content. This stuff would be on the primary channel if it was more popular and didn't mess with the algorithm.

[@billieeisenhower406]

the existance of a second channel is an awful idea, it only makes it so that less people see this. vaush could instead just grow one channel by having all his videos central to it. there's no reason to split viewerbases.

[@MDoorpsy]

@@billieeisenhower406 Yeah, I thought this channel was supposed to be for media criticism and stuff like that? This really should be in the main channel for politics.

[@ericdecker2914]

MDoorpsy It’s probably to downplay the continuation of this particular topic.

[@AR15ORIGINAL]

@@billieeisenhower406 he isn't splitting viewerbases, you just have to fucking sub to both. You're saying something dumb, EVERY BIG CHANNEL splits content accross multiple channels because of how the algorithm works

[@KP-ov3mg]

She has to be one of the most condescending people I've ever seen.

[@devildelirious8662]

It's "listen to indigenous people" yet here she is, speaking on their behalf

[@inurokuwarz]

From the organizing principles listed in the Landback Manifesto: "Don’t burn bridges: even when there is conflict between groups or organizers remember that we are fighting for all of our peoples and we will continue to be in community even after this battle" So Professor Flowers exclusionary attituide is in direct contrast to the movement she claims to represent.

[@manderly33]

The thing I find most sinister about this is that she seems to be implying that she has (by her own rules) the right to be speaking on this subject because she’s been “listening” to indigenous people, while never explaining a) what this listening has entailed, b) who exactly she listens TO, and c) what else she has done to learn. I’ve been involved in the fight against Line 3 for a couple of years now, and I gotta say: none of the indigenous folks leading that movement talk like she does about Land Back. To me it just seems like she wants a cover for holding these creepy beliefs, so she’s glommed on to this historically oppressed group that *she is not a part of*, because she can advocate for an ethnostate on their behalf and get indignant on their behalf when she’s accused of racism.

[@heavysystemsinc.]

@@manderly33 The other problem with PF's position is that it's only one step deep historically. North America as a land mass has likely a large unknown history of battles over land/territories, so how far back does she really want to go if someone, just one dude, can prove he's a descendant of a civilization that predates the THEN indigenous people...and what if that ONE GUY was fascist as fuck and decided, "It's all mine. Everyone has to go. All 350+ million folks can fuck off, even you so-called 'native tribes', get the fuck out. Like, it's really shallow to think of any of this in such absolutism where it's clear she's dancing around blood purity type arguments but then fails to even address that aspect that is the wrench in the spokes of her 'perfect answer'.

[@justinowens2077]

13:30 Yea, how DARE non-poc defend the right of poc to exist!

[@midnightnavigator]

Ikr? They should just ignore the struggle and stay ignorant in their privileges because they have no business taking a stand against the system that oppresses fellow Americans. Clearly only PoCs should defend PoC's because they are so well heard on their own and not done dirty constantly by the media.

[@Hylean_Way]

First time I’ve heard the term “non-poc”. Since it refers to one thing usually it’s just “white”.

[@The_Chosen_Heretic]

The things is there are people who will say this, and then pitch a bitch fit about how white people don’t do enough.

[@wafflepoet5437]

Thank you for keeping the game volume down. I really love this new kind of content, but it’s impossible for me to watch some of the other ones because the game volume - fucking _Mario_ of all sounds - either drowned out the speakers or just drove me bonkers.

[@isaacshryock2807]

I wonder what professor flower’s thoughts on the Irish are

[@newwavenancy]

She wasn’t familiar with basic information about Idi Amin in Uganda, which is beyond confusing considering she speaks with authority to the point of condescension on these matters. I can’t stand this second hand embarrassment.

[@orlamcmanus9019]

She thinks they colonised themselves cos whitey

[@aridianknight3576]

I wonder what she thinks of Turkish people who originated near Mongolia, migrated to Persia, wiped out the Byzantines, conquered the balkans, Arabia, and parts of Egypt, drained their resources, suppressed local religions, treated indigenous people as second class citizens. Literally enforced serfdom. Post ww1 broke apart and ceded land to white colonizers, never paid reparations, participated in ethnic cleansing with Greeks, then genocided the Armenians all with no repercussions whatsoever!

[@raak4070]

Hopefully not that individuals born after those things were done are personally responsible for those actions and maybe can be ethnically cleansed. That would be stupid. That is definitely colonialism though lol

[@FernandoTorrera]

There are so many examples of failed revolutions that ended up in bloody crimes against humanity, usually headed by some idealistic charismatic leader. I don’t know about the charisma but flowers is 101 on failed logic that ends in tragedy

[@davec1406]

It seems strange to me that Prof Flowers is so insistent that we should talk to native peoples' about their mistreatment, but doesn't seem to have done that. There's nothing wrong about that, but there must be someone else who's more knowledgeable about this subject and has put in the work of actually understanding the positions and desires of native peoples living in the US.

[@darciheadswillroll]

Israel by her logic is 100% right, Palestinians who don't even know the name the ancestors that was in isreal are being in the right because it was there land yes shes just being racist, they even addressed this in avatar comics, why should the fire nation colony give the land back to the earth kingdom when the fire and earth nations were born there and coexist

[@strongbone9471]

Israel isn't a good example. North america wasn't a multiethnic place before Europeans came over here and colonized north america. Israel was a multiethnic place.

[@captaintaco2845]

@@strongbone9471 wait is your argument only ethnically homogeneous places would deserve their land back? What about somewhere like Sweden?

[@LimeyLassen]

@@strongbone9471 " North america wasn't a multiethnic place before Europeans came over here" ???

[@veel60]

@@strongbone9471 North america absolutely was multiethnic before the europeans came.

[@dudeist_priest]

Heemed: If you look at... Flowers: Did you just assume I know what colloquial speech is?!?!

[@tylerhackner9731]

Why do we take people like her seriously

[@wafflepoet5437]

She has a significant platform, she confidently espouses an unfortunately popular tendency of “decolonialism,” and she’s obviously considered to be optically sound within and possibly outside her own personal community. Which is to say we _should_ be taking people like Flowers seriously, because whether or not we agree with her, whether or not she’s right, her message obviously has traction. We’re (online leftists, as it were) lucky that this tendency is being further popularized by someone like Flowers, honestly, because she’s so unabashedly aggressive. I’ve engaged with a variety of people in comments and elsewhere since Vaush talked to her and most of them have one consistent argument, which is that she doesn’t argue for ethnic cleansing. This is fantastic, because I feel like most of them are running around saying this _defensively_ and we’re in a position to effortlessly lay out, using her own language, how her beliefs explicitly lead to ethnic cleansing at the very least.

[@Takokujin07]

@@wafflepoet5437 She basically says ethnic cleansing is okay only when minorities decide to do it. Like, it’s their “right to choose” like…my brain has been murdered

[@IMatchoNation]

She's black and a woman. Unfortunately that's about it.

[@soccerruben1]

Liberal identity politics.

[@OM-wl7qe]

@@Takokujin07 Bold of you to assume you had a brain to begin with

[@FortuitousOwl]

“Vaush’s audience knows nothing about separatism and decolonization” how condescending

[@miri745]

How could she go away from the Vaush debate and not immediately read up on the subject and construct actual arguments. It's so lazy.