DEBATE on Miscegenation, Racism, & More w/ Aston Mack

Thanks for coming on Aston!
His twitter: / mack_aston
Black Media Panel: • Are Hamilton and Djang...
😎 SIGN UP TO CANVASS! www.vaush.gg/map
🔴 Website - www.vaush.gg/
💵 Patreon - / vaush
🌟 Other Socials 🌟
⭐️ Main Channel - / vaush
👀 3rd Channel? - / @vaushvidya
🐦 Twitter - / vaushv
👾 Twitch - / vaushvidya
📸 Instagram - / vaushv
🔵 Facebook - / vaushvidya
🎵 TikTok - / vaushvidya
🎙Podcast - anchor.fm/vaush
#vaush #vaushpit

[@TheVaushPit]

Aston Mack was on the Black Media Panel Vaush did earlier this year if you wanna check that out. Also follow him on twitter! His twitter: twitter.com/mack_aston Black Media Panel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHXMYqtuhM2trbs

[@hobosorcerer]

I... don't know if I want to follow him after this.

[@hobosorcerer]

@@whitefragilityexpose1512 Because he made a bunch of bad arguments that betrayed some problematic biases, but I'm sure you're oh so very concerned. You were the person asking another commenter where their parents were born when they mentioned they were black & disagreed with you.

[@soltier8965]

Oh yea why not platform a dude who is cool with anti race mixing.

[@Bkilfoil747]

@@whitefragilityexpose1512 do you feel like you won that interaction?

[@melaniey.5596]

Don’t go doomer people. Aston is still cool, smart and more importantly, good faith, despite his blindspots in some topics (if we are gonna cut some slack to Vaush for his bindspot I’m some racial topics, I think we should give the same understanding to others). Building bridges and fighting against racism with the people who most need the help is still important!

[@Mrballerize]

Being anti interracial marriages is inherently conservative. It's wild that people who call themselves progressive or Left can be in favor of "maintaining bloodlines".

[@derfthekhemist8517]

I’m not either but I don’t want to taint my bloodline either, what’s wrong with that

[@isaiahromero9861]

​@@derfthekhemist8517 explain to me why that matters for any reason other than racism

[@actaeondiomedes4270]

@@derfthekhemist8517explain how this is different that white racists wanting to keep their “bloodline pure”. Oh wait, I guess that’s only bad if the “bloodline” is the shade of porcelain

[@Blacktoothoneil]

@@derfthekhemist8517”Taint my bloodline” bruh, that’s incredibly racist. Why is other races considered a “taint”? Disgusting.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

​@@derfthekhemist8517You described it as "tainting" your bloodline. You're a racist, fam.

[@dustinjoeypace]

Hey, white person married to a black woman here. Her dad didn’t talk to her for two years because, and he stated this much, she was dating a white guy. This shit absolutely 100% happens and our friends in interracial relationships have told us about the negative reactions they’ve had from their families too. It may not be a hugely significant percentage of black people, but there are definitely more than he was saying here.

[@stupidlastminutename]

it was so severely hard to hear him say that there aren't any black people who he's seen actually dismiss other black people for deciding to partner with white people when I've seen first hand as a black woman, reddit threads and KZbin channels devoted to black woman hood that are critical of black men's choices in other racial partners and I've had friends stopped on the street with their white boyfriend and nagged for dating outside of the race it almost felt like he had to be lying

[@verager2493]

I'm white and very occasionally hang around a few black people and I've heard of this from talking with them. Like, I don't get how anyone with any proximity hasn't seen this? I'm hardly an insider, here...

[@derfthekhemist8517]

I don’t see it either it’s out there but I don’t don’t see it outside of tv really

[@derfthekhemist8517]

He’s right I don’t want kid’s allergic to the sun 😂

[@isaiahromero9861]

​​@@derfthekhemist8517 I love how you first denied black people being openly anti interracial marriage, and then immediately advocated against interracial marriage in your next comment

[@asherroodcreel640]

​@@isaiahromero9861I'd never even think of that, it's pretty good

[@sleepyblue8]

This debate reminded me of the MOST INSANE shit my ex ever told me in confidence. So, we both did ancestry tests and both our ancestors were slaves down south. We started talking about it. My ex then said how they believed black people are the most superior race, and that it was evident since our genes were able to survive the diseases the Europeans brought over, while the native Americans just died out. I was fucking blown away. I brought up how fucked up I thought it was, and they said that they could say it because it’s a “safe black space.” I won’t even go into their bullshit here, but god I completely forgot about that until listening to this debate. They thought white people were basically subhuman and became heavily islamaphobic only a month after converting to Judaism, despite being Muslim only a couple of years prior.

[@superdoopercooper1962]

This is the fakest shit I’ve ever read.

[@hamzasehavdic]

they seem mentally unwell; and at the same freaky in bed

[@krunkle5136]

That just sounds like a psychotic break. Imagine making your race, which in itself is a mostly made up concept, your identity.

[@randomhuman2595]

So by your exes logic white people are superior too since they survived the diseases that killed the native Americans too?

[@doublinx2]

Sea of red flags there 😬😬😬

[@nackskott12]

It's super weird that he acknowledges colourism and how light-skinned black people can be treated as non-black within the black community, while also being too black to be seen as white, and then claims there's no social distinction for mixed race people and that you're black or you're not. I don't know if he's actually thought that through because those are entirely mutually exclusive.

[@SS-xr7jf]

Exactly. It’s common for black people to be racist to them for being to white. “You finally had a beautiful black baby 😍” because the lighter skinned siblings were apparently not good enough. That sort of crap.

[@Afri_Pandora_Archieve]

@@EggEnjoyer Your response uses academic jargon to justify double think while not adding any additional information.

[@Star-pl1xs]

@@EggEnjoyer that's not what dialectics means

[@kommi7658]

@@EggEnjoyer it litteraly isn't

[@Star-pl1xs]

@@EggEnjoyer no. it isn't. it's a form of analysis that weighs both sides of an argument as temporarily equal in order to find any underlying truth residing in the dialogue between those sides. it isn't "two things can be true." there's a rly good CJ The X video on this that, i think, explains it in a very thorough & understandable way. i recommend that if ure confused.

[@serversurfer6169]

Aston Mack: White supremacists always count us as black, no matter how light we get. Also Aston Mack: White supremacists think the lighter we are, the whiter we are.

[@darryljack6612]

I still very much like and respect Aston, but i feel he was WAY off when he said black people dont "other" biracial people. As a non biracial black person i have seen that shit happen so many times it isnt even funny, rather if its just from witnessing casual conversation of other black people talking shit, or listening to the actual accounts of biracial black people and their personal experiences, it does in fact happen. While black are in no way on top of the systematic ladder, all races and racial identities have the capabilities of enacting discrimination and or biases on the bases of skin color. I can even say so from my own personal experience that even if a black person is "100 percent black", other black people can still act racist towards them. Especially with taglines like "why do you act white? or "why do you talk white". And while systematic racism of society has lead us to this point, some personal responsibility must be had to the individuals of color who say or do racist things.

[@MrSourceMan]

I overall agree, I feel like he is projecting his charitability onto other people's views, which is part of why I like him. He did argue very well, but he's still arguing an incorrect sentiment.

[@barcotics1880]

i guess some people just forgot about the light skin memes that were going around

[@dylanfooler]

I honestly didn't realize there Was issues within black communities of light vs dark skin until I was in a school body of over 90% black, bc to me black is black, but I saw over amd over my light skin friends be discriminated against and my dark skin friends teased for "acting white" bc we were in a anime club :/ Like, I didn't even see the issue until it was in my face, so it's understandable for Aston to not see it either

[@jdprettynails]

@@dylanfooler Yeah, every one of my black friends has been given shit at some point or another for "acting white" usually because they like anime, video games or listen to rock music. Just....fucking let people enjoy things!

[@someguy7819]

@@Nihil847 Broooo, Dominicans are so racist against Haitians it's not even a joke. Dominicans will straight up get mad if you call them black lol.

[@somethingcool9979]

I’m a black dude, and watching this is infuriating. Come on man black folk can be racist as fuck. It just means that we have to watch out for old mindsets and adapt just like every other ethnic group. This dude is so slippery, he is scared to undermine any black person even if they are super flawed with their horrid views, so he is pretty much running defense for that endless dude. I’m a Destiny guy, but Vaush calls it as he sees it even with black people and I respect that. Most lefties and liberals of any other ethnic group are too freaking soft when it comes to black people. If a black person is racist stop running defense for them, history doesn’t matter at that moment, They are racist, it’s simple.

[@luna-p]

Exactly. If it's excusable to be racist against a group he (exclusively) associates with being oppressive, what's his excuse for when black people are racist or big0ted against other oppressed minority groups? Cuz that definitely happens. Endless tried to argue that in every situation, black people were at the bottom and when they weren't, it wasn't comparable.

[@davidradtke160]

@@luna-p or those minorities to blacks. I’ve had Chinese and Pakistani older folks assume i agree with them when they say racist shit about black people because I am white. Like everyone can be stupid, ignorant or racist. No group holds exclusive right to being terrible.

[@luna-p]

@@davidradtke160 True

[@RGCDTB]

Based i definitely learned about black racism from vaush

[@joshuasalem5022]

I just think Aston is very charitable and likes to assume good intentions in people It’s not a bad way to go through life honestly, but I will agree that it can lead to being a little too soft on bad people sometimes.

[@stardust3176]

Trauma can make you into an abuser, but it doesn’t excuse your actions. Idk how that’s hard to understand. No, killing an innocent pregnant white lady wouldn’t be less bad because of the trauma experienced by the slaves. Yes, I can understand their pain, but no, they did a bad thing.

[@soltier8965]

Oh no no no.. Don’t you see? Their oppression excuses all wrong doing.

[@stardust3176]

@@soltier8965 when will we be free from lib idpol 😭😭😭

[@soltier8965]

@@stardust3176 Never.

[@SS-xr7jf]

B-but the serial killers mother was horrible to him!

[@tymiller176]

@@stardust3176 the moment not every Vaush fan accepts everything he says is true via fiat, that's when

[@Roonayy]

This is my favorite kind of racism. The one that isn't even trying to hide how racist it is but just pretends not to be racist.

[@darryljack6612]

Diet Racism, It gives you that same sweet ignorance of regular racism, but with none of the guilt or self awareness.

[@Gundamman]

its not racist because white supremacy

[@uli11]

I don't know if this quite crosses the line into racism exactly, so much as a bias/rose colored glasses. He is an enabler of racism though, undebatably. I truly don't think he is racist himself.

[@soltier8965]

@@uli11 I’m pretty sure an enabler of racism would be classified as being racist.

[@uli11]

@@soltier8965 I'm sure this is semantic, and maybe not even worth parsing- but I wouldn't. I would react to an enabler differently, I would use different strategies to debate them than a racist. Because of this- I wouldn't necessarily lump them together. Again maybe it's semantic, but I think there's use in the distinction between "racist" and "enabler of racists".

[@WhiffenC]

I like it when Vaush looks me in the eye and winks when people say sussy things.

[@slipknot95maggot]

Does that qualify as a kink.....? Just curious, no judgement. Just a semantic query

[@The1nvisibleJeevas]

The downside to only listening to the audio is missing things like this :c

[@alexmekuria748]

@@The1nvisibleJeevas Same, I'm combing for the timestamp. If any of you know where, feel free to put it up

[@dylancraven3979]

@@alexmekuria748 Little late, but 54:25, and 57:17

[@theorangeninja6486]

These kinds of arguments remind me of the J.K. Rowling school of racism, where racism is bad because it's technically incorrect, not because discriminating against people in any way based on their race is fundamentally morally wrong. I think people like Aston recognize the difference and that they're on the wrong side on this on some level, you can see them trying to work out the cognitive dissonance when you point out the logical equivalence - that if we were to go by their logic, that white supremacy would be justified if their conspiracies were true, that the Nazis would be justified in commiting the holocaust if the Jews really were trying to destroy Germany with Cultural Bolshevism

[@FelisImpurrator]

So NonCompete? Lmao. Have to note that it's fundamentally morally wrong because it leads to worse outcomes that can't conceivably justify any accompanying negative externalities though, to be specific. We don't want lefty arguments being made for purely deontological reasons - they're nearly impossible to defend against people who don't already agree with you and end up in RGR territory real fast.

[@theorangeninja6486]

@@FelisImpurrator i have a term for people who do not share my axiomatic moral goals: evil

[@kimik-sb1bc]

Yeah, I feel like some lefties try so hard not to be the "basic liberal individualist" who disagrees with right wingers just because they fundamentally believe that human rights are sacred that they overcorrect into "really there's nothing inherently wrong with what they're doing, they just happen to not be factually correct".

[@za1231in]

@@theorangeninja6486 hold up dude i generally agree but the whole point of propagandizing nazi populations into believing jews were destroying their country was to justify the genocide and otherization. would you agree that if Jan 6 rioters were correct that the election was stolen and biden was going to be an authoritarian, then it would be justified to revolt? the problem with racism/bigotry isn't either/or between incorrect vs immoral, it's both.

[@misirtere9836]

Ah, yes. The kind of point that it's really difficult to NonCompete with.

[@AlexAustralis]

How is this guy saying he hasn't seen any black people explicitly saying they don't want interracial relationships so they can preserve the black bloodline... when like 75% of the comments on the post which (I assume) sparked this debate were EXPLICITLY that?

[@Montewtf]

I think he's trying to say this is just online discourse. Like we have lots of online left takes that don't exist in real life

[@verager2493]

@@EggEnjoyer 80k likes, dude. Those are, in fact, people

[@verager2493]

Not to mention the agreement by numerous open white supremacists commenting on that thread...

[@verager2493]

@@EggEnjoyer those comments are literally a reactionary response to that tendency, which they regard as a problem. And it's not 80k bots on a nobody account that then sheepishly backpedals when they're called out

[@kay2187]

@@verager2493 yes all 80k likes are black people please touch some grass

[@Hawkwood96]

Aston seems like a genuinely kind, honest person. I just wish he didn't overextend his charitability to people who are so clearly not as well-reasoned and well-intentioned as he is.

[@brandons9027]

I get the feeling hes just too scared to confront them on this or maybe he just kind of can accept that people Think like this.

[@sheriefelsayad5578]

Actually he seems very dishonest, his perspective is pure crap

[@Meladjusted]

Watching post-Bush politicians on TV really just traumatized you guys as kids, huh?

[@mikebiggums1921]

I'm glad Vaush and Aston are still on good terms after this, especially since it got so spicy at times. But yeah... I think at some point people have to accept that racism towards white people exists in the black community. It's no different than someone in the black community being racist towards Asian or indigenous people, which is something that "wokescold" types will admit exists. And not being willing to address complicated issues like this will eventually lead to bad ideas propagating, causing harm in the future. It's exactly what happened when nobody did anything about the "k--- all men" movement which all ended up becoming TERFs. Do whatever you want with your personal life, but trying to limit the freedom of another person to love who they want is bad actually and as leftist we should be pushing back against that.

[@TiffanyStarrxxx]

We know racists Exists In the black community, it exists in every community. But there's no way in hell we have to accept it. I'm with Vaush, all racism is bad and should be discouraged.

[@PJF1981]

Aston opened by shitting on Destiny and his community. This wins points with Vaush and his community right off the bat.

[@outercat]

terfs predate the 'kam' stuff lol

[@PJF1981]

@@outercat That's not what they said. They said that the KAM femimists eventually became members of the terf team.

[@outercat]

@@PJF1981 oh fair lol

[@FortuitousOwl]

I wish vaush had pushed back (maybe he did) in the idea of the “survival of the black race”. Like, people freely choosing to enter interracial relationships is not killing off black people. It isn’t even the same as like what we did with native people in residential schools. This isn’t a genocide, it’s a natural progression of humanity when we live with people of other races and cultures. Aston brings up money leaving the black community by a rich black man dating white women. But that’s a problem because historical laws and segregation led to black peoples being basically legally barred from gaining generational wealth and power. This problem is not solved by keeping the black man from dating white women. Socialism, for one, would help a lot. Making sure everyone has their basic needs met especially those in historically oppressed neighborhoods which are usually POC.

[@classyrassy1790]

Absolutely. If no one's right to live free and happy is being infringed on, who cares?

[@melaniey.5596]

Yeah. I know everything has the potential to be political, but I don’t think we should make who we choose to marry and have kids with a political choice (like with vaccines. Vaccination was made a political choice in the USA and that was a disaster). Call me a romantic, but I just want to fall in love with who I fall in love with. Being careful to search for partners who are “good people” is hard enough. I don’t want to add race to the standard.

[@bestaqua23]

This is a thing thet alarms me honestly . Balck people ( as in the phenotype) are not going extinct Africa is full of them and due to international travel there is a non negligible chance they will continue to have kids with Eropiane people making sure balck genetics is mixed into the population ( this is how it always happened . Humens never created breeding isolated ) . Balck culture is not in danger either even if the person continuing it down the line would not look like the original people of the culture ( again this is not the first thet will happen as wall ) . So "balck " as a stand-in for genetics is not disappearing and "black" as a standing in for culture is not disappearing I just think he doesn't like big people

[@classyrassy1790]

@@melaniey.5596 Honestly, this really does just circle back to the fact that the family we choose is vastly more important than the family we are born to. This blood and soil shit where who you want to love isn't just a matter of personal choice, but is some critical political matter to some group you never asked to be part of in the first place just sounds like the most exhausting thing ever. Like its annoying enough being a white person and hearing white nationalists blabber on about how important their DNA is and how I have to lose my personal freedom for the sake of the glorious DNA. Couldn't imagine how overbearing it is being a black person and being part of a demographic where this attitude seems to be far more normalised. I know if I was born to a family and community like this, I would have ditched them and gone off to be part of a commune somewhere a long time ago.

[@davidradtke160]

It’s like saying black woman dating rich white men is stealing money from the white community.

[@louisrizzi9990]

Im a white man and I had a loving relationship with a black woman for over four years in high school and college. I got a lot of shit from both black and white people, and it was a really disgusting feeling, probably even more so for her than for me. I didnt even meet her parents for the long 4 years we dated, in part because they didnt approve of her being with a white man. I understand where these attitudes come from with racist oppression, but it really isnt excusable and ends up hurting everyone imo

[@Lionheart7190]

A lot of black people consider a white man who dates and sleeps with a black woman to have contracted "jungle fever" and that eventually the white man gets over it and moves on to white or Asian women. When there was mass miscegenation in societies in the past, those societies crumbled into despair, poverty, immorality, and pure hatred for one another. No one and I mean no one had any identify at all due to the offspring that sprung from those cosmopolitan unions. A good lesson for anyone from any race in a society to learn. Unfortunately, someone like Robert De Niro got over his fever way way late and finally separated from his black wife in 2018. Albeit, there were also other reasons for his break up.

[@YellowTXRose1]

You can't say that you understand these attitudes come from racist oppression and then call the position inexcusable all in the same sentence. You clearly don't understand. Also, your gf made the decision to stay with you even though her parents opposed your relationship. She could have done what most ppl do, which is choosing someone who fits in culturally with family but she made a decision not to and that ended up hurting thr ppl she loves and mean a lot to her. I know that bothered her to do that. I don't think it's worth it but she does and I hope she is able to move on accepting and respecting her parents position.

[@louisrizzi9990]

I'm not sure how deciding to enter an interracial relationship is a decision that "ended up hurting everyone, including herself." What's wrong with dating across racial lines, even if parents disapprove?

[@trithos7308]

@@YellowTXRose1 her parents position is racist, whether you like it or not.

[@BlisaBLisa]

@@YellowTXRose1 why the fuck should she respect her parents position? should a gay person respect their homophobic parents position and not date people of their gender? Should they be blamed for "hurting the people they love most" by loving who they love when their parents are homophobic? How is this on the girl at all? its not about "fitting in culturally" people with cultural differences can coexist just fine. its just racism. you cant be expected to respect your parents when they dont respect you

[@nackskott12]

“We're supposed to check if the people we're murdering are armed or not when the slave uprising happens?” ... That would be a good idea, yeah.

[@blackpilleddadli]

It's an armed uprising against people who have subjugated and mistreated you for generations. Innocent people (to the extent that one can be innocent while benefiting from a slave society) are gonna get caught up. It's unrealistic to expect otherwise and hand wringing about that fact is ridiculous.

[@soltier8965]

@@blackpilleddadli Ah yea bro saying murdering innocent people just because they benefit from a racist society is bad is hand wringing. What a joke lol

[@kylegonewild]

@@blackpilleddadli An infant is completely innocent while benefiting from a slave society. Period. If they were capable of agency and responsibility we wouldn't need to feed them for years after they're born before they can do it themselves. Even an armed uprising can make an effort to NOT commit atrocities. There's a difference between collateral damage and purposefully cracking the skulls of people not fighting back.

[@parazitkolol]

@@blackpilleddadli What you're talking about is collateral damage which is bad, but still happens during the heat of battle, revolution, etc. and is to be expected. What happened in Haiti was targeted, systemic killing of all white people in the country (except for that one Polish village but that's because they participated)

[@blackpilleddadli]

@@parazitkolol The extent to which a blanket targeting of colonizers occurred has been wildly exaggerated. This is a recurring theme throughout history. Dominant group benefits from systemic violence directly inflicted upon oppressed group, oppressed group finally hits back and then all the hand wringing and attempts at blame shifting begins. Miss me with the bullshit.

[@nackskott12]

Him arguing that bad behaviour being done to dark skinned black people for acting white is proof that it is isn't an attack on mixed race people, is laughable. Misogynistic attitudes seep into how feminine men are treated, does that mean it's not an attack on women to shame people for looking or acting feminine? Of course not, that's an extremely silly thing to say. Christ, this discussion is frustrating.

[@eKko0]

i dont care whos using it when i hear the term "bloodline" it makes me soooo uncomfortable, its uber fash-coded

[@STARK0181]

Alot of the time yeah.

[@ergosum5001]

I'm exceptionally disappointed that Aston still bites Endless's Thanos Error. Rather than simply attempting to fix underlying issues with systemic racism in the first place - both Aston and Endless would be willing to settle for socially inspiring 'Black survival' (and White survival) through racial skin tone purity. So many times he, subconsciously, conceded that he doesn't consider mixed race people doesn't represent Black survival - neither he nor Endless consider someone with lighter skin as "Black" anymore and as representatives of continued human progress. He was being extremely charitable - if not outright lying - about Endless' position when Endless literally equated being a part of Blackness and Black culture with being "a real dark skin hood nigga". Endless implicitly did something Aston himself disavowed explicitly in this debate in another way: Endless not only 'othered' mixed race people - he 'othered' non-hood Black people. Having people that they're comfortable looking more like them is more important than humans literally just loving each other and having mix raced kids. Despite being a Leftist, he thinks trauma itself justifies revenge and he doesn't consider the material consequences of his advocacy. He not only therefore falls for Endless' Thanos Error, but also falls in a way for Professor Flower's "deserving of fear of retribution" rhetoric. Moreover, Aston is literally wrong. Every single fascist Vaush has debated has literally argued that mixed race people are throw-aways and that they DON'T want their own racial purity tainted by minorities. White supremacists see themselves as VICTIMS and they think they're the ones fighting in self-defense when they violently try to genocide minorities. 99.9% white supremacists don't consider themselves 'white saviours' who's duty it is to 'whiten' and save the other minorities. They don't want to *reproduce* with us minorities. They either just want us as fetish toys, or they just want us murdered. Why is it so hard for people to focus on fixing material consequences that trying to post-hoc justify their own bigotry? Why are people so selective with using materialism to justify bigoted actions - but ignore it when it results in bigoted outcomes? EDIT: Holy shit, why is it so hard for people to understand that TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT!? TRAUMA DOESN'T JUSTIFY ABUSE!? If I was hurt by a white woman, as a minority, does that justify me saying "well, of course I can tolerate white women, but I think minorities shouldn't interact with them romantically anymore" and getting a standing ovation online?

[@LJStability]

It's kind of weird that this has to be said. Racism is the same regardless of what the person's perceived motivations are. The fact that the idea of race, which is a false concept, is being used to justify it simply tells me the person has bought into a raced based ideology to begin with.

[@JonathanAdami]

yeah I tend to agree, tho, a grandpa saying racist stuff because he has no idea how it impacts others and learned that growing up when it was normal and might not have the cognitive ability or brain space to reassess his whole communication style is arguably a little different than a guy who knows a lot about it and hates people based on some random characteristics like melanin or language etc! so intention kinda matters a little, I wouldn't know how to draw the line or even if a line would be helpful, bagging the grandpa in might be the right thing to do, who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@rainbowkrampus]

Aston does a few things here that really got on my nerves. First, he switches between "black" and "dark skinned" whenever conflating the two things allowed him to weasel out of accountability. Racism becomes colorism and colorism becomes racism as soon as he might have to recognize that he's defending racism. Kinda surprised Vaush didn't call him out on it. I don't think this was malicious though. Aston really seems to be suffering from some variety of cognitive dissonance here. Recall that cognitive dissonance occurs when our brain tries to protect us from social pain. Something in this conversation was needling some part of the way he self identifies and I suspect that this is why it felt exactly like talking to a white supremacist. Second, he affirms Endless' exoticising of white women. Endless thinks about white women the way racist white dudes think about Asian women. Merely of value for their sexual use and some essentialist notions of their characteristics. Aston doesn't seem to recognize that this is a problem. I'm not sure if it's just run of the mill misogyny on Aston's part but it was one of the more damning parts of the discussion. I've been really annoyed with this dude both times he's been on. He strikes me as someone with blinders on. He's adopted some sense of progressive politics but he still maintains one foot firmly in the land of heteronormative, race essentialist western culture and I don't think he realizes it. So he talks himself in circles and justifies the bad behavior of others for reasons I can only speculate on. I really hope this conversation and some space gives him what he needs to break through whatever mental barriers he's built up. Because frankly he's kind of a scumbag with this constant holding water for bigotry. Adolph Reed put it best, "Racism is the belief that race exists." Everything else is just trying to post hoc justify your own bigotry.

[@stardust3176]

Yeah I think last time he was on he came off as patronizing, and him doing the “dipping in mayonnaise” thing and defending it leaves me with even more of a sour taste in my mouth. I don’t want to think of him as a bad guy, but him going on to kinda defend the killing of an innocent white pregnant woman because of trauma is making it hard to say the least

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@stardust3176 It's weird. He makes me think of conservative teens who've adopted the bigotries of their parents. It's so matter of fact for them that they have a really hard time realizing that they're being shitheads. But I'm pretty sure he's not a teen anymore. So I'm like, there's basically no reason to not call this guy a POS. He might not affirm every one of these ideas but he sure does put in a lot of effort to defend the people that do.

[@bajes328]

Based Adolph Reed

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@bajes328 Eh, he's got some cringe takes. But I think his takes on race are top tier and cut through a lot of the BS that has lead to the brain dead takes we've seen from "leftists".

[@Pluveus]

Okay, so, I'm about 50 minutes in, and I'd like to focus in on the differentiation between black supremacists and other parts of the diaspora. If we look at white supremacy from a non-systemic angle, one of the key goals of white supremacists is to coat their toxic beliefs with language that is more palatable to centrist and liberal whites. The goal is to drive a wedge between white people and people of color by sneaking their talking points into the language of polite society. This language alienates the other group and prevents community building across racial lines which makes it easier to radicalize them once they're isolated. The whole process of radicalizing a normie involves getting them to talk like a racist long enough to actually become one. The goal of a black supremacist is largely the same. Sneak racist language into the larger society so that non-racist black people will become racist and join their cause.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Would you say that that's likely to be a byproduct of white supremacist rhetoric working precisely as intended?

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

take the systemic part out then who cares?

[@trithos7308]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW people that want to prevent racism from spreading, no matter were it comes from. Because believe it or not, racism is bad

[@gabriels2859]

120 years ago, the Philippines was a caste society, where your skin tone and percentage white - chinese - black - native blood determined everything from where you could live to what job you could have. After many generations of intermarriage, everybody is just Filipino and though colorism still exists, it basically has no impact on your station in society or your social mobility. Colorism still exists, but basically only in aesthetic contexts. There is still an extremely small minority of Manilenos of pure Spanish descent, who speak Castilian and have a lot of inherited wealth, but they have long ceased to be a political, economic or cultural force in the nation. And if we are lucky, that will be America's future as well. No one will remember who was black and who was white outside of a history class, and we all just get to marry who we want to marry. Besides, it's not like blackness is a virtue any more than whiteness. We shouldn't forget that Europeans weren't capturing slaves; they were buying them from black Muslims. To quote Cletus, let's stop the fussin and the feudin and get down to the lovin.

[@BraxtonMeyer]

it seems like aston provides too much cover for people who are essentially racists when they are black but overall this debate was good

[@jamesmitch9792]

because twitter racism is equivalent to police racism? ok

[@uli11]

@@jamesmitch9792 did someone delete a comment? Nobody mentioned police anywhere that I can see...

[@soltier8965]

@@jamesmitch9792 Bro what? Lmao

[@RrRr-or5tw]

@@jamesmitch9792 a nаzi is a nаzi doesn’t matter if they are some guy how lives today and outside of being a nаzi lives a relatively normal live or if he was an SS officer in 1940 the officer had more power and could do bad things with that power so he did more damage but both are nаzis and both are bad for the same reasons.

[@superdoopercooper1962]

As a half black and half white person I can say I’ve never been called “half white” always “half black”.

[@dannyromano3664]

It’s about time then, white boy

[@superdoopercooper1962]

@@dannyromano3664 lmao you have made my day 😂

[@grimmrgoodbar6401]

This guy is straight up lying when it comes to Umar. Edit: Also, it took my grandma 5 years to warm up to my girlfriend and would actively tell me every Sunday at church that I need to be with a black girl. So he's lying about that too.

[@classyrassy1790]

I don't get how you could live with family like that. It sounds so unbelievably overbearing being with people who try to make your life part of their blood and soil nonsense.

[@ultimatedude5686]

He's not necessarily lying, he probably just grew up around more progressive people than you did.

[@grimmrgoodbar6401]

@@ultimatedude5686 then he is incredibly misinformed about the broader black community outside of his bubble.

[@gregoryadams9025]

Why isn't this on the main channel? This is a great debate.

[@dapeopleeaters9887]

i think vaush has said a few times hes a little bit tired of being the 'reverse racism' guy. i agree tho its a good debate

[@MrRizeAG]

The two channels are not primary and secondary. They are both the "main" channel. They are only split for algorithm gaming purposes, as certain kinds of content will pull a channel down.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@MrRizeAG haha you said gaming Good explanation though. The pit part refers to the hole the algorithm casts naughty content into, clearly.

[@ProfessorStuDDS]

EDIT: I actually went back to this post and there was a LOT more support for interracial relationships than I remembered. One or two comments that were explicitly "HELL NO, NOT ME OR MY FAMILY" and a few that said they would hook up with a white person but never date one and other stuff along those lines. And all the rest were "love who you love, godspeed." Just want to highlight that for the sake of intellectual honesty Due to a random set of circumstances, I'm in a Facebook discussion group that's predominantly made up of middle aged black people. One of the discussion threads in that group was about this very topic and I saw several members of the group expressing abject disgust at the idea of interracial dating, though far from everybody who commented. I can understand and appreciate Aston's rationalising here, but from my *VERY ANECTODAL* experience, there seems to be a reflective disgust response from some black people about this and being super charitable about that in all cases feels weird to me.

[@ProfessorStuDDS]

That said, I also got a lot of support when I commented about enjoying my ability to be in a happy relationship with my biracial gf. Which was encouraging to see. And I don't think it's some ideological plague- I just don't wanna be judged for who I love, or policed for it

[@sr.nobody8585]

My take on this would be that we're trying to construct a world where people's race doesn't matter or affect them in any meaningful way in social hierarchies, so reinforcing and spreading essentialist worldviews that worsen this type of problem is a problem, it doesn't matter from which race it comes from. You can criticize and fight discrimination without reinforcing these bad ideas. Whilst it is understandable that black people may adopt anti-white positions as a result of the historical systemic oppression they faced, it doesn't mean that it justifies them being discriminatory too.

[@sr.nobody8585]

Other than that, thanks for sharing your mind on the topic! I wish you guys luck on your lovely relationship :)

[@superdoopercooper1962]

When black people enslaved whites for a few hundred years it will make it easier for you to be less charitable probably.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

did any of those people advocate violence towards people in interracial relationships?

[@ryanraso2813]

Dear vaush as a Caucasian male I had the love of my life being a African American was together 6 years with her and the whole time being chased away by her mother because I was not black and not religious eventually it caused enough of a wedge it did push us apart just. Thanks for talking about this as a white person I couldn't give a fuck about blood lines we found each other through love and got pushed apart by hate ahai thank you this brought me to tears today memories I keep in my heart

[@AshanBhatoa]

I'm sorry man - that must hurt...

[@Criticalthinking788.]

He can’t be racist, he mixes with the mayonnaise. Lmao

[@jarrettbristol7819]

Debate king is back, love seeing these

[@TonyAncom]

@Alexal Wiener one can dream. It would be a steam roll.

[@alexalexandrov9684]

Bro said Nigerians don’t care about invisible differences like Nigerian politics isn’t currently heavily about the divided between the three main ethnic groups. Ethnicity is an invisible divide and often a more important one in Africa

[@Mikae1300]

This is a great debate. It's refreshing for Vaush to debate someone who's being good faith and isn't secretly a horrible person. I think Vaush has the better argument here, but had a lot of trouble convincing Aston that some black people are against race mixing just because they're racist. It's not a systemic racism like white people participate in, but it rather a day-to-day essentialization. I think Vaush is right that Aston's hesitation to accept that kind of black racism is because Aston is very charitable, which isn't the worst thing on the planet, lol. I think it's fair to say that Vaush may be overly sensitive to people dog whistling racism, because once you delve into that world, it's hard to not see it in a lot of places. Anyway. Overall I really enjoyed this talk. I hope we get to see Aston again sometime.

[@archerbluth]

An Aston Mack convo always makes for a pleasant and robust discussion, which is always a breath of fresh air from the usual nut cases Vaush debates🤣🤣

[@wilfordbrimley689]

This guy refuses to accept that black pressure against interracial relationships is a bad thing. He's not secretly a horrible person, he's pretty openly awful.

[@archerbluth]

@@wilfordbrimley689 how familiar are you with Aston? If you did just a smidgen of digging you’d find he’s not all that fond of black racists because they undermine the BLM movement, a movement he organizes for. Sure, he may try to explain away guys like EC’s views, but he doesn’t share them in the least and may just have difficulty in accepting that minorities can also be racist or at least hold those views.

[@archerbluth]

@X O who said they were? All I’m saying is that Aston still approaches this discussion with some semblance of good faith. Given some of the nutters Vaush has debated, Aston is a refreshing discussion

[@rockmycd1319]

@@archerbluth I don't know, being an apologist for black supremacists doesn't really strike me as someone who really thinks they're a destructive and subversive element in black rights movements.

[@samuelbarber5097]

1:15:38 I't's just so hard to watch Aston continue to defend the behaviors because he doesn't recognize that the behaviors aren't reasonable no matter who exhibits them

[@TheNoodleGod9001]

Man, it feels like half the people out here will say 'race is a meaningless social construct, obviously', and then immediately go and interpret it as the most important thing about a person, where they're a member of the race first and an individual second.

[@outercat]

in a better world race wouldn't matter, but we can't walk around pretending we don't live in a world where it still does

[@soeasyastonercoulddoit]

Fucking thank you Vaush. Calling out racism in all it's forms.

[@coffeeking9565]

@@chrisj9993 why can't they?

[@coffeeking9565]

@@chrisj9993 racism doesn't need power. It can be different via it's scope of damage. But it's still racism

[@asherroodcreel640]

​@@coffeeking9565I think we sould all be racist against hard to open jars

[@AliceLott]

I’m white but the idea that it’s progressive in any way to police who Black people are allowed to love and be loved by is so wild to me.

[@alexandredesouza3692]

Arguments aside, I like seeing pictures of happy families.

[@stardust3176]

You can’t say mixed kids don’t get shit from the black community when people were calling doja cat a white woman when she was getting canceled

[@Lanoira13]

Vaush: Look, I don't like racism anymore than you do. Aston: I like Racism. Against the right people. Vaush: _oh_

[@intrepidabsurdist]

It was like Aston had not actually watched the Shark and Endless debate, which is frustrating.

[@luna-p]

Well he excuses away any evidence of racism in black people and thinks they all think they same benign and/or justified things, so yeah he watched an entirely different debate than the one that happened in reality.

[@Scrinch_stole_schristmas]

I think the biggest disconnect is when it comes to equating anti blackness and anti whiteness. Vaush is saying they are identical. He’s looking at the mechanics and ideologies of the arguments and concluding that they are the same. Aston is saying they cannot be identical. He’s looking at the past history and the current systemic imbalance of power and concluding they have to be different. The issue is that for ideologies you need justifications, not reasons. Yes, the reason that black people advocate against interracial marriage is due to the previously mentioned anti-black oppression. However, that does not mean it’s justified. It is only as justified in however much the mechanics of the argument are justified. Which vaush points out are equivalent to white supremacy. When this is pointed out, Aston just side steps it and relies on the emotional punch of, “but, look how oppressed black people have been”, “how dare you compare the two”. Which, again, while true does not justify the argument. And when continually pressed, he resorts to, “well, they don’t actually advocate against interracial marriage”. Which, to me is the slimiest argument of them all since you are just gaslighting the entire internet. You don’t get to go “wow, I would hate if my family looked like this” and somehow say you aren’t advocating against that type of family.

[@stormburn1]

The phrase I constantly want to scream at people like Aston when they talk about the wheels of oppression is "Break the wheel!" So many people see the world as a zero-sum game, a cycle of fortune and oppression that is unchangeable and we must operate within that framework. They see the wheels of oppression as inevitable, and any action is justified in the name of steering them for "just" goals. It's about having their turn at the top, and punishing those who had previously been there. It's so frustratingly defeatist and cowardly of a perspective. Recognizing a flawed system and operating within the limits set by it is fine, but you should always be looking to change the system, doing whatever you can to weaken it rather than reinforce it. Their perspective is like saying it's fine for a peasant to overthrow his king to become king himself. They're so locked into believing there must be a king and will ally with those who want to be "good" kings at the expense of those who want to get rid of kings altogether. The wannabe kings are justified because it's their turn. It's the same kind of brain worms that defines tankies, and I have no idea how to deal with the mental infestation beyond venting and deworming whoever isn't too far gone.

[@FortuitousOwl]

Ok but I’ve heard from a lot of light skinned people that they don’t feel accepted by a lot of the black community, and I only ever see this being disputed by black people that aren’t light skinned. I don’t wanna do the horseshoe thing but a lot of the time when I hear darker skinned black people talk about the things light skinned people can/can’t do and what counts as black it just ends up sounding like white supremacy but the other way. The endless segmenting and narrowing of what counts as white is an inevitability of white supremacy and I see that in this area of the black community. Like to me there are issues with dark skinned people being treated differently than light skinned people, but shit talking light skinned people or excluding them from being black doesn’t solve that. Neither does saying “we need more dark skinned people in the future”. That doesn’t get at the root of the problem, which is white supremacy and the tendencies of societies to other people of differing skin tones. Race is a social construct. You can’t get rid of it by making more of one race. It reminds me of the issues of cultural appropriation, where the argument started as “white people get taken more seriously when they appropriate things by other cultures and at the same time a POC engaging in their own culture is so much more easily othered” and it has turned into “if a white person wears corn rows they are racist”. Like that’s not solving the issue.

[@hamburger4635]

I think he just can’t accept that a close friend is racist

[@friendlyG771]

I like Aston. I get his desire to defend his friend. But the charity he's giving to Endless here is just unwarranted. Endless clearly just doesn't like race mixing and uses a "grand narrative of ethnic replacement" to justify his bigotry here. Yes, colorism exists, but systemic problems do not excuse individual bad behaviour or beliefs. The way he's treated Shark and other POC creators who have disagreed with his problematic beliefs has been very revealing as to the racial essentialism that is really motivating his behaviour. He called one mixed race creator the c slur (the one that sounds like racoon). That is inexcusable. It's possible to both say colorism is bad and also not be against miscegenation. Endless is just abusing progressive sounding language to cover for his reactionary beliefs here.

[@verager2493]

Hating miscegenation is just a core aspect of colorism

[@jannetteberends8730]

Once my black mother in law was complaining about white women. Suddenly she realized that I was white, and said: this isn’t about you. You’re not white. 😂

[@jefftonsman]

I am confused now

[@shalizzle793]

Whenever a guy cites polls to Vaush to make a broader causal argument, i wince. Polling and public opinion research needs to be contextualized and studied way further than just a quick glance at the percentages in a poll, which is why RESEARCHERS interpret polls and not random schmucks online

[@jordanwhite8718]

Decide anyone who’s taking a basic statistics course can tell you that there are all sorts of ways you can twist numbers or report things wrong. You can just look up the Dewey versus Truman race to see that.

[@FelisImpurrator]

That's unfortunately a problem that exists even in research itself. Psychology is riddled with bullshit diagnoses that are mostly defined by public opinion or intuition. It's ludicrous.

[@jordanwhite8718]

@@FelisImpurrator Yeah that’s definitely true. Having a bachelors in psychology has really showed me that if you wanna see people who are skeptics about psychology you just have to talk to psychologists. I remember one of my professors talking about the crazy politics that was involved with the DSM five.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@jordanwhite8718 Oh yeah. Psychology, as defined by fucking insurance companies. 4Head There's also the checklist used to identify psychopathy... Which a guy named Hare made up by studying prison populations and deciding that there was some kind of mental disorder that makes people essentially evil. And how do we know his clearly incredible methodology was legitimate? Why, he sues everyone who doesn't agree.

[@verager2493]

Ya, he's using statistics as an excuse to attribute motivations to people by skin color. That's not what that information tells you if you know how statistics work...

[@PicassoSensei]

I haven’t liked any argument Aston has made when he speaks to Vaush

[@luna-p]

"Well they don't say yeehaw" was a much needed giggle break. Well, more like honking in my case, but anyway. Hilarious.

[@JonathanAdami]

43:58 "Because we're the same people" was the sentence burning in my head the whole time, I understand the issues are huge, and we have to tackle them, but as long as you think that we're on 2 different side of a line, you can't even begin the process of fixing this, first because it's antagonistic by nature, and second because everyone decides where that line is for themselves and people argue different stuff! It'll always be "my shit is more important than yours, I have to protect my people, you have more advantages than us, yadi yada" My experience is worth nothing but most people I know in interracial relationship don't bother themselves with any of this... They have issues yes, being black is used against them? definitely! but fully white couples have issues with their inlaws too, they're just a lot more creative in the excuses found because melanin is not part of the equation! Anyway, love each other, then try to fix issues! Peace y'all!

[@JonathanAdami]

1:01:00 when you're saying that it's ok to date across but don't have kids and that somehow you don't realise how stupid that sounds! lol

[@JonathanAdami]

1:29:08 vaush... just say yes! you said american because you forgot there was other countries for a minute and that's ok, you don't have to sound smart and disagreeable for everything lol

[@leona-lynne]

"Hand them white women" wow now we must have a conversation about misogyny now.

[@intrepidabsurdist]

Yeah. The way women have been talked about in this and especially in the Shark/Endless debate has been incredibly cringe.

[@kylegonewild]

@@intrepidabsurdist "play in the snow" 🤮🤮

[@luna-p]

Agreed, disgusting

[@Lol-lj4qz]

Look at the nba draft. Look at soccer wives as well

[@jefftonsman]

​@@Lol-lj4qzthere is nothing to look at

[@davidradtke160]

Skin lightening in many places is tied to economic status not just because of whiteness. If you have to do labor outside you will get tanned from the sun, that’s what poor people do. You can’t disentangle “white supremacy” from classism in many places.

[@darkphoenix2]

This again? I'm going to the Chiefs game tomorrow, I'll try to find Patrick Mahomes and ask him what he thinks of all this.

[@kangZ_94]

Go Cardinals 😂

[@SamuraIcarus3]

Ask him how the KC bbq is too please

[@Meladjusted]

52:04 "The way that white people extract value out of wealthy black people by _handing them white women..._ " Sorry, could you explain the workings of this system in some more detail? It's just that I never actually got handed out to a wealthy male overlord by the White Council of Eldermen and I'm trying to figure out why. 🥺

[@chrisj9993]

I see it all the time in college, attractive white women will try and seduce the star black athletes… the white men who run the school can’t give them money but they can give them the next best thing, the black mans kryptonite… white women

[@ziontea7045]

​@@chrisj9993this weirdly enough is true. A lot of football coaches for those college teams are known to just simply facilitate and allow that kind of stuff. It's really freaking weird

[@jessemiller4953]

Im watching old debates, and every time this convo comes up, i keep thinking of the show 'dear white people' where the main character (a wokescold) hid her relationship with a white man because she was afraid of the reaction of her black friends/community. She had also written an article about "dont fall in love with your oppressor" telling black women not to date white guys. Also, she was mixed race and insecure about how that made her blackness percieves iirc. I used this example because I come from a majority white area, and I'm something of a white person myself. My point is that this anti-mixing attitude is prevalent enough to be written into a popular tv show, so it seems weird this guy wouldn't have heard of it?? There is obviously a lot I don't know about the black experience, it just seems like this guy is wrong.

[@Findme1reason]

Being the victim, sadly, does not innoculate you or your race from becoming the oppressor (or even just a shitty person). Just look at Israel Palestine. I don't even think it necessarily gives you insight into the full nature of the oppression. Having a racism committed against you does not inform you of sociological data surrounding that. You have to choose to learn about it.

[@bengoose2031]

It doesn’t matter the color: you aren’t talking a racist out of their racism.

[@eelvis1674]

How are we seriously still having the debate over "racism = prejudice + power" me calling you out for saying "systemic racism" is just like me calling you out for saying "throw-pillow" going "aCtuAlLy ItS a CuShIoN" They are two terms which mean the same thing. So how about we just use the one that makes sense. And that most people understand, and that requires the fewest syllables.

[@verager2493]

Some people really don't like being called racist, but want to call other people racist. That's about the only way it makes sense to me

[@lallig8860]

never forget that the guy Shark talked to was ranting about the "QUALITY of melanin" that sounds racist as hell to me

[@Noschool100]

i just dont get how the distinction is meaningful, like i can see the argument of black people having these views because they were raise in a society where they felt oppressed and white people just getting them from how they were raised, but nobody chooses how they are raised. if you acknowledge both hate crimes would be bad to some degree, i dont get why one group gets more slack than the other when neither had a choice in the society they were brought up in.

[@jordanwhite8718]

Something something prejudice plus power bullshit.

[@luminarymani]

i agree, when black people have these views its probably coming from a different place but it still leads to the same outcome: racism and people getting hurt.

[@ritwikjainsahu6177]

india does not have a legal caste system, it was abolished in 1950. those same attitudes are still pervasive though especially in poor, rural(uneducated) areas which is why we have huge reservation quotas for scheduled castes and tribes. these are vilified by the middle classes further ostracizing those caught in the crossfire. people like aston mack, who are so invested in their ideology, centuries of oppression overturned by a historic racial movement can only frame their responses through a narrow lens. it's tedious to engage with, since they make emotional statements all the time, like the one about india when they are obviously ignorant of the racial strife that has existed outside of the United States and the social ramifications of it

[@d-5037]

Good convo! The only thing I really have an issue is the fact that he defends Endless's position on the race mixing thing. While I somewhat agree with Aston that it's not fully one to one if it's white or black people doing these arguments, it's still bad in either case, and I don't think most people who engage in it are doing it for analytical reasons like Aston is, I think it's just racist or colorist tribalism for the most part. Other than that the convo was nice and I learned some stuff and heard some new perspectives.

[@jamesmitch9792]

meanwhile Sargon keeps claiming to be black, because he apparently had a black grandfather

[@sargonsblackgrandfather2072]

Say what Jack?

[@coaxill4059]

47:20 God that anecdote about his grandmother is heartbreaking, and I can understand why it affected him so much. However, the point of all this and objectively correct response to your grandma saying: "Don't have kids with a dark skinned person" IS NOT: "Fuck you grandma, I'll have the darkest kids possible!" It's: "Grandma, I don't care. I'll have kids with the person I'm comfortable with."

[@mossystone584]

This is just like the proffesor flowers aftermath, they are reading a lot opf stuff into

[@Molly-jh4kz]

Tldw: it's fine for black people to be racist because of their skin color and the glorious history of their people. Well points for consistency.

[@mogscugg2639]

Aston Mack vs. the "Pizza Bad" guy 🤗🤗🤗🥵🥵🥵😵😵😵

[@Juel92]

Aston seems like a good dude but there really is no defending someone who said that he never wants his "bloodline" to end up a certain skin colour. The "bloodline" part is a 100% dead giveaway.

[@Shayanzass]

I really hate this take, because as someone who isn't white or black, Aston really makes it feel like every other race is irrelevant and only the black experience is important.

[@PeregrinesChagrin]

"Well they don't say yeehaw" Got me 😂

[@mettelindegardnielsen9411]

If you want to experience American privilege as a black American, you can fx go to Europe and see how some people change their behaviour to you after they find out you are American.

[@PistachioBandit]

How do they change?

[@DoritoBot9000]

@@PistachioBandit people will judge you by your culture/country of origin. This debate was fascinating, but if very much American-centric.

[@SuperSuperspoof]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. PLEASE look into Khadija Mbowe. I'm convinced any chat you might have with her would be at least this friendly (even though she's likely starting from the "prejudice + power" side of this argument), and possibly much more informative depending on the specific topic. Her CRT video essay came out a couple weeks after your Charlie Kirk debate; I would begin by going over that on stream and consider inviting her on after that!

[@jdprettynails]

Before watching, I'm a bit apprehensive....I really liked this guy on the Black Media panel. I've already had my heart broken by the guy Shark debated. Edit: So I'm just going to assume that the 1 Drop Rule must be an American thing. Because my brother and sisters have the same family set up. They're white, but they have African grandparents. They mentioned this at school when talking about their families and they were bullied relentlessly by the black kids. Saying they were lying. They look white, so they are considered white by society. Also I grew up in a predominantly black neighbourhood, my whiteness was absolutely not a fucking privilege back then. Edit 2: "Mixing in the mayo", "Playing in the snow"....Jesus fucking Christ, what is with these euphemisms??

[@randyohm3445]

The "one drop rule" comes from a time during the years of Jim Crow when there was an actual "one drop" rule. Courts would sometimes have to decide whether someone was black or white and their standard was that "one drop" of African blood make that person black and thus subordinate. So yeah, it is kind of an American thing. In a way, we really invented a whole new way to be racist slaveowners. It's hard to find any other examples from history of anyone being as horrific as we were.

[@imlaughing2death]

Keep in mind that Endless was the same guy that got angry at CTV saying "Black, white...it's all pink to me!". I think now we know what Endless REALLY disliked about him saying that.

[@jdprettynails]

@@imlaughing2death You don't happen to have a timestamp of that, do you? I wouldn't mind rewatching that bit.

[@imlaughing2death]

@@jdprettynails It wasn't part of his debate with Shark, IIRC it was part of his hot mic video where he talks shit about Dylan behind his back. You can probably find it on ChudLogic's coverage of it way back when.

[@jdprettynails]

@@imlaughing2death ahhh, ok then.

[@swannbenziane7880]

One of the answers given by endless was literally people who look like me in the future

[@Gloomdrake]

All Tomorrows is great for this. Literally none of the human descendants look anything like what you'd call a human, and yet we recognize them as human anyway because they carry on the spirit of humanity

[@luna-p]

And for the excuse of "only my family" to work, that would mean inxest, and since I'm sure they don't mean that, they are obviously being prescriptive

[@stardust3176]

This convo reeks of cognitive dissonance. I’m like the Patric wallet meme

[@jerryhampton5755]

Every time I have ever dated a black girl it has been a problem for at least one of their relatives so obviously it is an issues in the community.

[@chrisj9993]

You think it’s racism?

[@vicenteramirez754]

@@chrisj9993 if for the famility the escential problem comes down to the other person's race, then yeah

[@1123elemental]

Once again my opinion of this guy has not changed from the last video. It literally just sounds like he wants to be racist and everyone else to be okay with it

[@kay2187]

okay whitey

[@ora5799]

seriously these arguements for why black people being against interacial couples isnt a bad thing will probably never make sense to me as an australian where i run into a ton of interacial couples.

[@deathdealer13cat]

Because it's a shit argument that most ppl irl don't subscribe too

[@wesleybrock315]

He claims that mixed couples aren't exiled from black culture the same way they are in white cultures but I'm not convinced this is true. Apparently it's such a issue even within black culture that Endless argued it would be really unfair to his hypothetical mixed race kids if he had to not interact with his racist black family. He spoke specifically about the black side of the family being hateful towards the mixing. Sorry I'm just not buying any of it. I have doubts and those doubts get amplified every time I watch twitter meltdown over race mixing.

[@Heemed]

Ooo this should be good

[@rowbot5555]

Heem rad

[@hobosorcerer]

Having seen this live, I can tell you it's... certainly interesting.

[@tequilasunset8628]

I don't know if you've seen it already but shark3oZero had a debate against some "Endless Cemetary" dude on this a couple weeks before this vaush debate. It's pretty good stuff imo

[@soltier8965]

It was pure aids. I can’t even begin to state how much this debate made me lose faith in the leftist movement.

[@excalibur2772]

I have a deadbeat Mexican dad. My mom is black and all my family I know are black. When I was 10 or so I was shocked when I learned that black people only account for a small percent of the population in America because I lived in a mostly black part of a city in Texas. But I look mostly look like a mexican myself so I've never felt like I "fit in" with calling myself black. My mom thinks I am for sure and my family but I know for sure if I started addressing myself as such it would be problematic. Obama is as black as the Rock is but the former is known as black.

[@bugsysoc]

I disgaree with vaush and Aston Mack on a few things but even when the discussions/debate gets spicy both party's feel like they're still engaging in good faith. Loves goes out to Aston, hopefully we'll see you again soon!

[@zacharycompton5624]

As somebody in an interracial relationship. We get crap about it. My partner has had somebody at work stop talking to them the second they learned I was white. It's frustrating. I've also gotten very nasty looks from people in public when with them.

[@jeroendeboer9931]

I really like the debate! it's nice and refreshing to hear both sides make strong arguments not just to try to score points!

[@SarahRoseCO10]

Comment for the algorithm god Saw this live, and I have to say, I'm loving the debate frequency lately

[@Cygnaeus1]

This type of argumentation is frustrating because it moves from systematic to personal and from descriptive to prescriptive all willy-nilly. Sometimes an action is understandable because of the historical background and sometimes it's morally permissible. Sometimes people are responsible for their actions and sometimes they are basically determined by their conditions. As long as these categories are not settled the conversation is pointless.

[@bhig3]

Loving the new debates. Great energy

[@sasak369]

Lotta people here are saying they appreciate how good faith and good Aston is, but while he's not as explicitly bad than Endless, he is engaging in such heavy dishonesty to defend this deeply racist position that it's exceedingly charitable to assume entirely good faith.

[@braydenlanter95]

Ashton Mack was chill in this debate and he seems like a good faith kinda guy. I’m not gonna pretend like white people as a group will ever suffer from racism on a social/institutional/systematic level, and talking interpersonally racism against white ppl isn’t as prevalent or impactful (generally speaking) as it is against minorities. That being said, racism is racism, the extent to which one can manifest and act on their racism does not change the fact that they hold racism in their heart and mind, which is bad. About the racism = power + prejudice, nobody would apply this definition to other races. Native Americans consist of about 2% of the US population, black ppl make up about 13%. If we were to create a Native American character (that doesn’t pass as a white person) as an example, who’s like Steven Crowder level racist against black people, I don’t think anyone wouldn’t call them racist. But they don’t have any power, as a group they actually have less power than black people, so shouldn’t we instead call them nothing more than prejudiced? I know black people don’t hold systematic power over Native Americans, but neither group holds that power, so in terms of group social power, black people have more power than native Americans.

[@davidradtke160]

The book is called “black like me.” And was required reading in my high school class. A reporter got a temporary skin treatment etc to look black and then traveled the south in the US. It’s a pretty crazy book.

[@foxcks]

Sounds like a fairly intelligent guy, which is why the convo is that much more frustrating. I’ve got a friend like this too, ridiculously intelligent woman, but due to her experiences she holds some racist views against ‘white’ people. In New Zealand, Māori people legitimately were, in part, bred out of near extinction (less than 20% of the population now). So you would have much more of a leg to stand on there. But while you could understand and empathise with the resentment/fear, EVEN then, it’s still fucken whack to coerce your peers into breeding with a certain race if we’re going to move forward in a diverse democratic society.

[@foxcks]

Māori being the indigenous people of Aotearoa (NZ)

[@Gloomdrake]

What's the implied meaning of 'white' in quotes? Sorry if this is a rude question, I'm not familiar with the history of race in New Zealand

[@foxcks]

@@Gloomdrake I just personally don't like labelling people 'black' and 'white', feels gross. I'd say historically we've used the terms, 'pākehā' or some variation on 'european settlers' most of the time in NZ. Pālagi is a word Pacific Islanders in NZ use too.

[@titaniawallace4223]

Oh no I didn't think someone could mispronounce the word "hegemony" worse than Vaush how could this happen

[@braxinIV]

What is the proper pronunciation? HEDGE-EH-MUH-KNEE?

[@titaniawallace4223]

@@braxinIV yeah, heh-jeh-meh-nee

[@crono276]

@@titaniawallace4223 What did he say? Hedge-money?

[@titaniawallace4223]

@@crono276 he said hegga-moe-nee

[@crono276]

@@titaniawallace4223 lol

[@Clutchbangstripp]

Black people don't talk about race mixing as much as this conversation would make it seem. Where do these guys come from?

[@jjdude5531]

twitter

[@Clutchbangstripp]

@@jjdude5531 It's funny cuz black people barely use Twitter. Lol

[@SS-xr7jf]

@@Clutchbangstripp to be fair, most ~people~ don’t use Twitter. People pay waaaaay to much attention to it considering how little of the population is on it.

[@rudic3764]

Man, as a mixed person it was difficult to listen to a black person speak on the mixed experience. I dont identify as black because my experience socially IS different then that of a black person. It's not a 1:1 similarity which Ashton is alluding to. I like Ashton for his evidence based reasoning but this was almost entirely driven by emotional arguments...

[@LaurenElizabethYT]

Haven’t even watched the video/debate yet, but omg Vaush’s “I love being stick-like in nature” caught me off guard and really made me laugh. In summation, Vaush is very adorable.

[@schwaaamjohnson7971]

Racial blindness is def a huge place where I disconnect with vaush. Suddenly all nuance goes out the window when talking about the feelings black people have towards white as opposed to the feelings white people have towards black. Racial history is ignored for some strange reason even though I know he knows the history… totally perplexing.

[@LondrieGirl]

I agree with Vaush here. I don't think Aston is wrong in so much is that he's being way too charitable.