Drive Shaft Angles Explained

What should my pinion angle be? Do I need a double cardan drive shaft? Find a comprehensive guide to these questions and more in our video all about drive shaft angles.
Learn how to measure your angles here 4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tec...

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Still don't understand? Have something other than a lifted 4WD vehicle? Just want a more entertaining video? Check out the great work @GarageFab has done with his video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5ixi5l_h5JrhMk

[@bgurtek]

This is THE BEST driveshaft tutorial on KZbin!

[@RavenHiker89]

Talked to him on a forum and his knowledge is Easley simplfied.

[@Druze_Tito]

One video to rule them all. One man, one perfect explanation. Thank you, Shawn!

[@CDNBVR1]

The most informative video on this subject that I've seen so far.

[@jwickert3]

I don't know how I got here, but I watched the whole video. Well done!

[@jamesford2942]

Very well explained. You touched on it a tiny bit. Most people don't realize that the driveshaft speeds up and slows down twice per revolution. At steeper angles the speed changes are more pronounced. Steep angles and high speed will give you torsional vibration.

[@peterruppert7856]

I’m watching this video over and over so it sinks into my head. Thank you so much for this amazing video! It makes sense!

[@jaminseat6701]

Thanks Shawn. Very thorough explanation! Our new drive shafts run silky smooth in the Excursion.

[@hugodelpinal2210]

Great video, best so far!! Currently I have a 2003 WJ Grand Cherokee with a 4 inch lift. I installed a DC rear drive shaft from you guys when I lifted the vehicle. I was checking things back there and I noticed that the pinion was not pointing directly to the transfer case output shaft as suggested by a bunch of other videos and literature. Right now my drive shaft has an angle of 10 degrees and the rear axle checks in at 8.2 degrees. I was just about to make them equal but if I am hearing you right I need to leave it alone as it is within the tolerance.

[@davenkaren2572]

Having y’all build my next set of shafts!! Y’all are the best!!

[@1jzAll]

Great vid! Thanks for taking the time to help people like myself to understand problems I knew nothing about. I engine swapped my van and I've had some low speed vibes and now I have a head start on smoothing it out. Thanks 👌

[@ATEMOFFROAD]

Nice demo and well explained Shawn! I will be needing a tom woods double cardan driveshaft and sye kit very soon on my wife’s tj! Thanks for sharing 👍🏼cheers

[@1111Overland]

Phenomenal content Sean. I learned a lot from this video, really appreciate you taking the time to make it! Both my front and rear 1350 driveshaft are running very smoothly, thanks again for the care and attention your team put into making them for me!

[@sea_turtle_adventures]

I couldn't agree more Jeremy. I learned a lot as well. Now, just need to get my lift on the JLU and order drive shafts from these guys.

[@Limeayy]

Tom continue your videos. You are great at teaching.

[@rckclmbr85]

Thank you so much! This video is what KZbin is all about. This filled in the gaps related to pinion angle front vs rear and why rear is always the focus as well as at what angle you have to start worrying about replacing your stock driveshaft with a double cardan. Thanks, man!

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

That's great to hear! That is our goal with these videos, to help people understand how things work and why it matters.

[@MattMattMat]

Thank GOD for this video. I have a 2018 JKU and recently broke my front driveshaft. I don’t know anything about cars so replacing my own driveshaft seems both exciting and overwhelming. I’ve seen so many driveshaft videos that are extremely confusing but this tutorial answered all my questions. Thank you!

[@OHAR2]

I needed this video big time! Thank you for the thorough explanation!

[@DB-yj3qc]

Great explanation, I luckily understood this way back when I did a SYE on my XJ. I did it when I went from a 4 in. to a 6 in lift that ended up as a 8 in. Lift. I will keep this video as a reference to show people who can't understood the concept. Luckily at Jeep #4 ( LJ) I stopped "trying to keep up with the Jone's" stopped with 3 in lift. Jeep #5 (JT) is still stock but will probably be lifted only minimal amount... a JT.

[@surg9029]

Awesome video and explanation. I’ve run a Tom Woods driveshaft in the rear of my 97 wrangler for about 23 years. Phenomenal products. I wish you made a driveshaft for my 2011 raptor

[@kendexter]

Very well explained, helped me a lot , Big THX

[@kpfalconi]

Explained perfectly! Great video and a great tool for getting my wife to agree to a drives shaft upgrade. 😎

[@craighearn747]

Very clear and I learned a lot from this very educational class.

[@gavinmitchell5853]

Super helpful with the visuals and explanation!

[@shoglass]

Great video, i learned a lot of information on pinion angles!

[@chadsisk1244]

Thank you so much for this video. I knew absolutely nothing about this before watching the video, ( 3 times ) lol. Very informative. Thanks !!

[@0x00zero]

The ring and carrier actually sling the oil to the TOP of the housing (rear, when driving forwards)where it goes into a channel that drips it into the pinion bore and gets both pinion bearings. The bottom channel is where the oil returns to the sump. Remember this when working on a cratered unit.....gear pieces and trash-lok metal bits MAY have been 'slung' up into the oil passage at the top....hard to clean with pinion in place or in car.....pipe cleaners and air and such. Front a bit different, oils like in the video, but probably doesn't 'flush through' or circulate as well.

[@williamchapleski6566]

Extremely informational

[@alexzamora6700]

Yes good video.. most people can’t explain angles and leave a lot of important info out.

[@Moezer]

Very nice, this literally answered my question and the issue I'm having with my jeep xj

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

That's great to hear! That's why we made the video, to help people figure out what's going on with their jeeps.

[@owensaniga5974]

Awesome video! Could you explain which rules apply for setting up a rear 2 -piece driveshaft with u-joints on either end and a double cardan in the middle after the carrier bearing in a leaf-sprung vehicle?

[@FatherOfOurs]

PERFECT EDUCATIONAL VIDEO 👏🏽👏🏽

[@btripodina70]

Great video! I need help with a rear shaft for a 94 F150 6" lift. Lots of vibration over 60 mph. U joints less than 10k miles on them. Thank you again for this excellent video!

[@user-xl5np5dp8n]

Very interesting. Thank you for this video.

[@paulyboy1951]

I bought a driveshaft from you that works great.

[@tegbir1007]

Very informative.. thanks 👍😇

[@lonewoofv]

awesome video, very detailed, now i know what i need to do, thank you

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Thanks for the comment! I'm glad to hear that it helped.

[@johndoe43]

Great video and info. Knew when i saw tom woods it would be good

[@vicpnut1]

At around 8 min you answered my question ( at least I think I’m on the right path now lol) ….out of my trans (Nissan Xterra) I was told it was more or less a cv style joint , I don’t know ,when looking quickly I thought it was just a ujoint 🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️..but I’ll double check before I start “fixing”..anyways so that supposedly isn’t where my vibration issue is after installing heavy duty Ironman leaf packs , hopefully 🙏… on the rear when installing I noticed the back of the axle plate hit 1/4”-1/2” before the front . Thought it was odd but not knowing any better I just torqued down and all flattened out fine….so ….now it’s vibration time from 25 mph up to 40 mph….the Interweb search begins ….no definitive answers I need ( till 8 mins into this tutorial , I think lol) …you mention good idea to have 2-3 degree difference from shaft at rear end to allow for movement etc ..this is what my deduction came to ,sort of .. I knew there was some angle but only could go from my memory of that gap I saw while installing the leaf packs …so I put a angle finder on shaft (10.1 degrees) then on rear end to follow pinion direction ( 4.8 degrees in Same direction as the shaft ) so I subtracted 4.8 from 10.1 getting 5.3….I ordered 2.5 degree shims , subtract 2.5 from 5.3 and get 2.8 for the actual working angle at the rear ujoint……close but still within your 2-3 degree range ,so I feel better now….assuming I’m not a complete moron and I did this figuring correctly , which 🤞🏻🤞🏻🙏 ….do you think I’m on the right track? Sorry for long comment , but, I’m still typing …lol…. So one thing that was consistent across all Xterra message boards was that at some point of distance within lifting the rear end up shims are gonna be needed , then there’s 12 different explanation on how to find out how much shim ,and 12 different shims size recommendation too it seems …so I’m fairily confident the 4”+/- of lift gained by the new leafs created the need for a shim … and now hopefully with your expertise now in the mix , ive got the correct solution…🤷🏼‍♂️🤞🏻🤞🏻🙏

[@wranglernator]

Absolutely amazing!!!!!!

[@earlyblackmz]

Very informative! 👍

[@MrRoadking8468]

In a double cardon set-up, could bad control arm bushing's induce vibration since the pinion angle is moving up and down during acceleration and deceleration?

[@Jeezey]

I’ve learned all these lessons the hard way, with a leaf spring lifted solid axle Toyota. I cut my front axle tubes, to rotate the 3rd member(increasing pinion angle) and keeping steering geometry in check.

[@alanwatts9232]

Excellent, thank you.

[@rustyjeep9783]

Great video and info..

[@reallyhappenings5597]

Fantastic and informative

[@drahsanhameed3271]

Great video. I have a question though. I have a 4x4 setup and a center rear diff, but the rear output shaft and the auxiliary gear box is to one side (off center) which means the rear drive shaft will have two angles, a 5 degrees angle downwards and an 8 degrees angle sideways. Will it give me any problems like high speed vibrations? If it does, can i solve it with a double cardan joint at both ends? Or a split drive shaft where one shaft only has a sideways angle and the other a downward angle?

[@ernieclopez4595]

Great video.

[@ghaithalkiyumi8534]

so what do you reccomend for 3 inch lift jeep wrangler jlu ?

[@marcellanoie3685]

Great video. Answered some questions I had. Do you have anything concerning allowable yoke angle alignment? Working on PTO driven fire pumps on commercial chassis and there is a slight (1.5°) difference in yoke angles on the jack shaft. Wondering how much misalignment is allowed before issues might appear?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

1.5 degrees should not be a problem. In theory it is going to cause disruptions in how smoothly things run but I predict that the outcome will be insignificant and imperceptible.

[@blakenorman4822]

What is the max rpm a double cardan joint will take, putting together an la 360 mopar, really nice cnc heads, hoping for 500 hp

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Depends on which engineer you ask, what size joints, and what angle things are running at. You can find some information about max angle at different RPMs here spicerparts.com/calculators/driveline-operating-angle-calculator#more. You have to click "read more" in red to see the chart. You'd split the double cardan angle in half to find the u-joint angle. However, I don't think that anyone has data published on the max rpm for the center ball of the double cardan. The center ball is a sliding contact, not roller bearings like the u-joints, so it is the thing that is most likely to build up friction and heat. It is probably the biggest limiting factor for RPM.

[@Z-Ack]

Never realized you could clock a rear diff any different than it was from the factory setup.. figured it would cause big issues if was any different.. always just put in 2 piece shafts with a carrier bearing if the lift got to be too much for the pinions.. unless could afford a 4 link setup..

[@deans2917]

Thank you for the video. It helped me greatly. Im actually learning about setting up my 67 Nova with the 454 and 700R4. My question is Do the same principles stand for lowering a vehicle? I.E. 3-4 Deg between both pinions and make sure that they are running parallel as well? Will driveline Offset make any difference as well? You have opened my eyes on something that I have always took for granted. Thanks again

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Dean, yes the same principals would apply but the angle might be inverted. But as long as you meet the criteria of parallel angles and net angle at each end being less than around 10 degrees (maybe even less in your application) things should work well. The side to side offset matters but only because it adds to the net joint angle at each end. There's some math that can be done to figure it but if you have 5 degrees vertical angle and 3 degrees side angle you'll end up with something like 6 degrees net angle. You square each angle, add them together, then find the square root of that sum. The important part to remember is that it isn't vertical plus horizontal equals total. In this "for instance" scenario above you'd still be within the limits of what should work well. Ultimately though, angle is angle and the drive shaft doesn't know up from down from sideways.

[@akbarshoed]

Super awesome! I didn't know I was this interested in this topic. You must be a good teacher. Thank you

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Thanks for the kind words!

[@AirGunScientist]

Great video. Do you have a double cardan output yoke for an older model 18 transfer case (i.e. 46 CJ2A?) A very good video and thank you!

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

We sure do. You can find that yoke here 4xshaft.com/collections/drive-shaft-parts/products/26-spline-cv-yoke-1310?variant=32142580285537

[@shit89starter87]

What about a front drive shaft failure replaced and bad vibration at hiway speeds? What are potential issues with that?

[@downlowgarden7103]

I have a question I just installed a 2 link air suspension setup on my s10 an I set the pinion angle to make transmission angle would I need a double Cardan joint?

[@jwat2396]

I can't be the only idiot that asks, why not double cardans on both ends of the drive shaft? Ok, now that I've finished the vid I know why you don't put another double cardan on the back end of the drive shaft. Thanks for this very informative vid.

[@sharlonraphaela2320]

Good stuff

[@john13harbour]

on my 69 lincoln mark 3, the factory transmission angle makes it difficult to figure out a proper drive shaft... the transmission points downward 7 degrees toward the floor and the rear differential points downward toward the floor 6 degress. the factory compensated this by running double cardan joints on BOTH sides of the driveshaft. Running an aftermarket OD transmission required me to make changes to the driveshaft, and now i am at a standstill until i can come up with a way to remedy the angle problem. Running an AOD transmission doesnt allow to easily finding of a compatible output shaft yoke to accept a double cardan joint. Would you have any suggestions for my problem? Thanks

[@kermitbearden7142]

The ring gear slings oil from the top so the oil is slung into the top channel and runs down onto the pinion bearings then drains back through the bottom channel. The front axle slings from the bottom but the oil still gets to the top channel.

[@whatfreedom7]

If you replace a yoke does it have to go a certain way? I know the universals have to be in phase but does it matter if it’s 180° or not?

[@351kostakis]

Fantastic

[@josebri930]

I have a 04 Jeep Tj coil spring. On my rear diff pinion is at 13.6 degree and cv driveline at 13. difference. Is okay to drive it since it's minimal to 0.

[@blubu68]

How about angles where the trans down and the pinion point down forming a V My Chevelle was like that from the factory

[@johnnybrigham8154]

Hi what level are you useing? Thx jb.

[@orlandolopez4410]

Hi, I have a stock 2005 kia sorento which shudders at around 12mph, i changed the drive shaft support bearing as it was totally worn, shudder remains, any ideas please?

[@Blakep7704]

I have a vibration in my 90 k5 blazer after 60mph, the vibration continues there after. I would describe it as a steep angle vibration feel. The k5 is all stock with a new driveshaft I had built. Aside from an improperly balanced shaft, what other components could be causing the high speed vibration? And the tires have been replaced many times during the elimination process. Could the splined slip yoke even though it is tight to the bushing still cause balancing issues? I also noticed in 4H my front driveshaft will cause a vibration around 55mph. Not as concerned with that just wondering if there is a connection.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

You can read some tips on identifying drive shaft vibrations here 4xshaft.com/blogs/faq/diagnosing-drive-shaft-vibrations?_pos=1&_sid=d6ec76a03&_ss=r

[@MrTwitch37]

What is the max tolerable angle difference between the pinion and the shaft on a double cardan shaft?

[@woof3598]

got my new shaft in but now I'm thinking I should have greased it first, cant get the grease gun on the rear u joint or

[@dougbrook6223]

Thank you! I have recently purchased a rear and front driveshaft from Tom woods. Now I know how to install them. Lol... I've been a professional Automotive Technician for 23 years and this damn YJ vibration has been kicking my ass. I put a front LSD in it, so now the front driveshaft turns all the time. Almost shook my teeth out when I test drove it after the diff change. Plus I lowered gearing drastically making my problems worse. I'm doing a SYE and both double cardon shafts very soon. Any other tips that are not in video? I know I'm asking a lot, but I wNt my 30 year old jeep to ride smooth at 80mph down here in this Atlanta traffic.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

If your front shaft is spinning all the time for sure converting it to a double cardan is a good idea. You'll need to replace the front output yoke on the transfer case with a double cardan (cv) compatible yoke. That's pretty easy to do though and once that is done the shaft will bolt right up. The front pinion wil probably not be exactly right for the double cardan shaft but it will be way more right than it is for the stock shaft. You shouldn't need to worry about nor adjust the front pinion angle. You can find the double cardan front shaft for your YJ here 4xshaft.com/collections/jeep-wrangler-yj-products/products/yj-front-drive-shaft-double-cardan. There's even a link on that page for the yoke you'll need.

[@dougbrook6223]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 I bought the kit with the yoke. Unfortunately it didn't solve all of my vibration issues so as of now the front shaft is back out. It did make a pretty big difference but anything over 55 and it starts to vibrate pretty bad. Any suggestions?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@@dougbrook6223 4xshaft.com/blogs/faq/diagnosing-drive-shaft-vibrations?_pos=1&_sid=d6ec76a03&_ss=r

[@dougbrook6223]

I would like to thank you and this video for helping me solve my vibration issues. It required a few attempts to find "the sweet spot" so both the front and rear shafts were in the best possible position. (It also required 2 new driveshafts, a SYE, engine and transmission mounts, transfer case rebuild,a box of shims and a whole lot of test drives.... if I had it to do over I would use an air or electronic locker to keep that front shaft from spinning. But my vibration problems are solved. My old and very much used YJ is vibration free at 80+mph. (Pretty much as fast as it will go.) And that is with 4.56 gears. It can be done. The information was very helpful from this video. So we're the very well built driveshafts. Thank you.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@@dougbrook6223 Great to hear Doug!

[@gabrielvidales4447]

Can you use a double cardan on 10 degrees and less?

[@michaelwillcutt2619]

Most CV joints are located on the axle’s in front wheel drive an some front four wheel drive axles

[@charliedee9276]

Nice AK ink.

[@cnng3506]

This may sound dubious but Sir, let's assume we live in an ideal world, would running a cv joint with zero drive angle last longer than a cv joint with some degree of drive angle. Thank you so much for your time and answer.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Yes, the less angle things are running at the longer they will last. And the more angle something runs at the faster it will wear out. There is something to be said about grease circulation at zero angle though. If there is zero angle the grease won't circulate around the parts as it should. However, this might be a bit of a paradox because if there is zero movement in the joints there is not really a need for grease in the first place.

[@Palmerbeepee1]

Tom, really good explanation. But when you say "transfer case" in your demonstration, are we talking about a normally a "transmission"? My understanding is that an actual 4x4 transfer case delivers torque to a second set of wheels in the front, as the 'differential' delivers torque to the rear wheels. I'm not being a pain, I just am not sure. I'm thinking that your 'transfer case' as shown is for demonstration purposes and not normally connected to the engine? Thx

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@palmerbeepee1 The motor is connected to the transmission, always. In a 2 wheel drive vehicle the drive shaft would come right off the back of the transmission. In 4wd vehicles the transfer case is rearward of the transmission and is what splits the power to a front and rear drive shaft, instead of having just a rear drive shaft. So no, the transfer case is not connected to the engine, it is connected to the transmission.

[@robertsnellings2936]

My 04 Silverado z71 front driveshaft sounds all the time and it’s lifted 8.5” and I’m having front driveline vibrations that start and stop with acceleration on and off the pedal. I’ve narrowed it down to driveshaft angle Would a double cardan at one end or both ends help if the angles are bad?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

You should for sure have a double cardan at the transfer case end. It theory you'd probably want a shaft with a double cardan at the axle end as well but that is not feasible on your application. The transfer case end is where most of the angle is though so adding a double cardan at that end should greatly reduce your vibrations.

[@litergy1]

I’ve been fighting a 60mph front vibration for a year now. Took the front shaft to a local driveshaft shop paid $300 to replace the center ball and balance. It didn’t help at all. The caster was at 4 degree according to the alignment shop. If I remove the shaft there is no vibration. Bringing the angle down shorting the upper control arms helps. Should I keep bring it down till the vibration stops? Is the shaft the problem?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

It could be the shaft but it could also be something that the shaft attaches to. For example, if the transfer case bearing or pinon bearing is loose your yokes(s) could be rattling around a bit. This by itself would not cause a noticeable vibration but once you hook up 20-30 pounds of drive shaft and it rattles from side to side the effects are going to be much more pronounced. This can also sometimes be caused by a yoke that is machined a little off center which then causes the drive shaft to run off center.

[@litergy1]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 Thank you for the response. I got the vibration to a point where it is almost gone. I set the pinion angle 1degree below the driveshaft angle. It’s still there but at least it’s not a loud droning noise. I’ll check the transfer case yolk next. It’s a 2002 Tj with a 3” lift factory front shaft and a Dana 30 front axle. By the way. I think you’ve made the best video explaining angles I have seen.

[@dannywheeler7464]

Do you have info on 2pc drive shafts to set the correct angle, I now have a low speed shimmy and I’ve tried adjusting the rear piñon angle and just can’t get rid of it.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

It is sort of impossible to get the 2 piece shafts right. At least in our experience it is not possible to get it right by any means other than trial and error or dumb luck. In theory though the best way to set it up would be to raise or lower the carrier bearing so that the intermediate shaft is at the exact same angle as the transmission/transfer case. This would make the intermediate shaft behave as though it were simply an extension of the transmission or transfer case output shaft. The second shaft, the one below the carrier bearing, would then follow the same rules as any other single piece drive shaft. However, this is a case of easier said than done and it often does not work the way it is supposed to in real life. Google "Toyota Tacoma driveshaft vibrations" for a notable example of how frustrating it can be for people to calibrate their 2 piece drive shafts.

[@dannywheeler7464]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 sounds good, ya I’ve lowered my truck do angle adjustments are limited

[@killerwollf]

hello, the same rules apply to a 4links? Or would the pinion have to stay at 0 degrees? what would be the ideal angle for a fourlink suspension?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

We still tell people to set the pinion to about 2 degrees lower than the drive shaft. The axle wrap doesn't come into play with a 4 link though but 2 degrees still works well and allows us to give a broad and general recommendation.

[@1970351c]

My transmission flange & rear end are both zero so driveshaft is minus 6 at trans & plus 6 at rear. Single car Dan at both ends with the splined deal in shaft. I’m chasing a vibration & have had new splined section installed & balanced with new joints. Is 6 degrees acceptable?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Hi there. I know that your transmission and pinion are parallel but I don't know the other important piece of the puzzle, what the drive shaft angle is and how it relates to the other things. If your drive shaft angle is less than about 16 degrees (10 degree net joint angle at each end) then yes your angles are acceptable. If not, you may need a double cardan. There are also many other reasons a drive shaft might vibrate. More help diagnosing those can be found here 4xshaft.com/blogs/faq/diagnosing-drive-shaft-vibrations?_pos=1&_sid=d6ec76a03&_ss=r

[@strykerentllc]

Not only does he know his shit when it comes to driveline geometry but he's got legit AK ink and we approve both his knowledge and his taste in weps

[@theangrycamper]

I swapped out my dana 30 for a dana 44 in my XJ and I cant get the pinion angle very high without killing the caster.... where can I find information about how to address this? Do you have videos? Thanks, this video was helpful but not so much for the front :)

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

It's sort of explained after around 14:30 when talking about a multiple double cardan shaft. In the video I mention a Grand Cherokee specifically but the concept is the same for an XJ. More information about this type of shaft can be found here 4xshaft.com/products/zj-or-wj-multiple-double-cardan-front-shaft?_pos=1&_sid=db61262f4&_ss=r. Again, this says it is for a Grand Cherokee but also build these for XJ Cherokees.

[@theangrycamper]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 ok great!! I'll go check out your website because I can not get the pinion angle high at all and maintain any caster,..... do you think a double cardan driveshaft would help me?

[@pwatom22]

Great video. Instead of a double cardan at both ends, why not just do a shaft with true CVs at both ends? This would be less weight and a lot more tolerant of angle mismatch on lifted vehicles. LR defender front shaft has that 15 or so degree offset front and rear uj setup on splined shaft from the factory to counter the factory angle mismatch. Given it is full-time 4wd and defenders sometimes lifted, wouldn't true CVs be a best of all worlds solution?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Most lifted vehicles have angles too severe for a CV joint. Stock Jeep JKs come with rzeppa style cv joints in the stock shafts. But for the lifted jeeps, even Dana/Spicer, who makes the stock shafts for Jeep, switches to a double cardan design. The double cardan handles more angle better without failing. More on that here kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3bJoKyVhM-Ii68si=t_qhBQroMTIqDXv3

[@pwatom22]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 I see the jk has design limitations but there are so many fwd front axle CV joints and they are designed to work at large angles. Is there some fundamental wear vulnerability running the CV design constantly at an angle vs uj design? I wonder how would the CVs hold up on a Toyota Corolla if you drove it at a large steering angle constantly for 100,000+ miles..

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@@pwatom22 It's not just the JK that has limitations, that is just an easy and common example. There are a couple reasons cv joints work better on axles. One is angle, most cv axles are not running at a lot of continuous angle. They might see 20 degrees during a turn but most of our driving is relatively straight. The other is speed. The drive shaft is turning 4-5 x faster than the axle shafts. This also means 4-5 x rotations more per mile driven. Assuming angles are the same, a cv axle would have to be driven 400,000-500,000 miles at around 200 mph for it to be subjected to the same speeds and duty cycle as a drive shaft that averages 100,000 miles at around 50 mph. If you factor in the angle, you'd have to drive that corolla in a tight circle turn for those 400-500K miles at 200 mph. When it comes to friction or the deterioration of the rubber boot on the cv, the more times you bend it back and forth and the faster you do that, the faster things wear out. Another reason is simply practicality. For most of the vehicles we deal with a double cardan yoke on the transfer case is readily available and easy to achieve. I can't say the same about rzeppa style cv flanges. When it comes to custom aftermarket shafts for modified vehicles the u-joint double cardan shaft is much easier to achieve.

[@tractorhead971]

That’s the vertical plane. The same rules should apply in the horizontal plane for an offcentred engine? Propshaft a few degrees off straight ahead should be fine right?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

The side to side offset matters but only because it adds to the net joint angle at each end. There's some math that can be done to figure it but if you have 5 degrees vertical angle and 3 degrees side angle you'll end up with something like 6 degrees net angle. You square each angle, add them together, then find the square root of that sum. The important part to remember is that it isn't vertical plus horizontal equals total. In this "for instance" scenario above you'd still be within the limits of what should work well. Ultimately though, angle is angle and the drive shaft doesn't know up from down from sideways.

[@tractorhead971]

Interesting. Thanks for that info 👍🏼

[@ironwill04]

So how do you set the front drive shaft if you are angling the transfer case down?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Because the transfer case is bolted to the transmission which is bolted to the engine you can't tilt the transfer case much. You end up tilting that whole drive trains assembly, engine, transmission, and transfer case. By raising or lowering the transfer case which would be the back end of that assembly you can usually get no more than 5 degrees total change. Tilting the back of the transfer case down of course tilts the front of the transfer case up. That is usually how people will tilt the transfer case, they will lower it and tilt the back end down. It is much harder to go the opposite direction as you can't push the transfer case up too much without running into the floor. To answer your question though, the rules of drive shaft angles outlined in this video still apply the same way they would for a rear shaft or any other drive shaft. It just becomes harder to achieve proper geometry on the front, especially if extra changes are being made such as changing the angle of the transfer case.

[@ironwill04]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 thank you very much for the well thought out reply. I was asking the question because I have a lifted short wheel based vehicle and I am trying to set the transfer case. I can set the transfer case so it is perfectly level or I can tilt it down about 5 degrees. Both my front and rear pinions point up 9 degrees. After watching your video a couple times I was wondering if it is better to level the transfer case level and deal with the angles or if it is better to tilt the transfer case down in favor of the rear drive shaft and deal and still be able to get the front end shaft to work with the front pinion pointing up 9 degrees and the transfer case pointing up 5 degrees (this shaft is much longer). I guess in the end my question is, does your company make parts to make this work?

[@woof3598]

how hard is it to rebuild a double Cardan ?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

We have a video on that too! kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3OplJukp9itY8U

[@jerrybigrig9475]

👍😎👍

[@TravisFabel]

I just want you to know that my double cardigan is extremely comfortable... its wool knit.

[@jurajsmutny8171]

Pls, is it really nacessary to have 0° angle with double cardan ? I am about 0.5° and still have vwry low growling sound above 80mph, with increasing speed itw worse.And noise is equal durin acceleration and slowing..Without driveshaft no noise.It is balanced and brand new.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

No, .5 degree won't matter. You could be between 0-3 degrees and the shaft should still work the way it is supposed to. It sounds like your vibration is not angle related. More on that here 4xshaft.com/blogs/faq/diagnosing-drive-shaft-vibrations?_pos=1&_sid=d6ec76a03&_ss=r

[@jurajsmutny8171]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 It seems that is variation of bad parts: maybye 1.too much pinion preload (I will give torque wretch to shop if measures properly), 2.inproper cardan balance 3.worn t-case bearings. Without cardan is almost no or no noise and vibration because are not those rest parts under load. Is it possible when I sat pinion to zero was vibration and noise almost gone because those parts have less load with proper angle ? Or double cardan should work to 100mph without vibration and noise sat to max 2°pinion ? here is story: It has helicopter sound from 45-65 and more.. Ihad bad center ball and center rod , after reweld the new and balanced it ,it left now only humming really bass noise and vibration (only with cardan) but above 65mph ,the faster I go its worse. Iam desperate, it start really go into money.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@@jurajsmutny8171 The best way to reach us is by calling us at 801-737-0757 or by emailing [e-mail]. We're going to need to know more about the vehicle and the shaft though. We need to know what type of vehicle this is and what type of shaft, whether or not we built the shaft.

[@jurajsmutny8171]

@@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159 sry to write it all here but I thought you have almost every info. Its 4" lifted grand cherokee WJ with all adjustable arms. It classic front driveshaft with doublecardan..I sent it already to shop to rebalance it.They balance it at 2000rpm.They told me their maschine goes to 6000rpm but 2000 is enough for wehicle.So I let them rebalance it at 4500 so ist about 100mph.Currently have 3.73 gears with 31.6" tires.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

@@jurajsmutny8171 I don't think they are really balancing it to 6,000 drive shaft RPM. Simply because I don't know of a balancing machine that will spin shafts that fast. Typical max speed for a drive shaft balancer is 3,400 rpm. In your vehicle 100mph is about 4,000 rpm. Again, 6,000 rpm sounds very unrealistic to me. The most common balancing machines I know of are Shaftmaster and Westport. None that I know of that go faster than 3,000-3,400 rpm. Also, 2,000 is definitely not enough for your application. 2,000 drive shaft RPM is only about 50 mph in your Jeep. It sounds like some of what they are doing or saying they are doing is not completely legit.

[@mikes.1882]

95 Camaro z28 80mph vib. Every body has a different solution. Q. did it vibrate off the show room floor at 80mph. I doubt it. In fact, that issue would have been on blast in 93 and either killed the car line or Chevy would have recalled the car due to safety. Let's accept its not the driveline and aluminum DL won't really fix it. Somebody said change pinion angle to + 1.5 ... NOW we are getting somewhere. What changes things at 80 mph? Weight on the car. Rear suspension mounting wear?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the shaft didn't vibrate off the show room floor. It is not uncommon for vehicle to have these sort of problems when new. It won't be every single car or truck but there are certain vehicles that are prone to drive shaft vibrations, even when new. However, lets assume that it was smooth in 1995 when the car was new. Here's what has changed since then, 29 years have passed. That means that if your shaft is a stock shaft it has 29 years of wear on it. Worn out parts will cause the shaft to wiggle around slightly, run off center, and cause high speed vibrations. The thing that changes at 80 mph is the centrifugal force of any imbalances in the drive shaft. These forces quadruple when the speed doubles. Because centrifugal forces are a product of mass x speed, reducing the mass with an aluminum shaft should actually improve the situation quite significantly. I don't think your vibrations are angle related, I think that they are dynamic vibrations. More about all of this here 4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tech-info-articles/diagnosing-drive-shaft-vibrations

[@josephkryszczak]

Why not just swap to Rzeppa when you have big angles?

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Because Rzeppa CVs don't handle big angles well. Watch this video for more on that kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3bJoKyVhM-Ii68

[@benjaminerrico6760]

Have you ever seen rust throw a driveshaft out of balance?

[@overlandready]

a lot of that explanations are not really correct, you have totally missed phasing which cancels out some of the vibration. Also the yokes at the same angle will 100% cancel the vibration at any speed, what does happen is other imbalances and issues occur. Prro explanations all round to be honest.

[@tomwoodscustomdriveshafts7159]

Nope, you are wrong. I intentionally didn't talk about phasing because there is that one video of the guy with the blue shaft and sprockets that explains phasing. That video is an excellent video but it misleads people into thinking that there is no maximum angle as long as the joints are phased properly. On a benchtop demonstration this may seem accurate but when you are talking about something like a jeep where there are heavy parts and heavy loads it does not work as planned. This is because the rates of acceleration and deceleration of the joints are not uniform. One joint accelerating as the other decelerates is the thing that cancels out the oscillation. But because the are not uniform they cannot uniformly cancel one another. This is explained a bit in the text on this page 4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tech-info-articles/driveshaft-angles. What's really important though, in my opinion, is that tens of thousands of people have switched to a double cardan shaft because after lifting their jeep the conventional shaft no longer runs smoothly. Even if their shaft is perfectly balanced, even if their yokes are perfectly phased. Most of these people are not being preventative, they are reluctantly spending the money on a double cardan shaft because their stock shaft shudders and/or vibrates, because of too much angle. The proof is in the results.