Atheism vs Christianity w/ Pastor Paul VanderKlay | Spectrum Street Epistemology

[@drpeterboghossian]

Seems that a lot of people enjoyed this crossover: Make sure to follow Pastor Paul on KZbin: kzbin.info

[@pigetstuck]

would love to see more conversations with you and Vanderklay

[@jlbenedicta]

I love seeing people really thinking -- asking and wrestling with big questions. Keep up the great work!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you.

[@manfredconnor3194]

They are not thinking. They are not asking the tough questions about their religious beliefs. Of course, there would be thai food without religion. Chritianity lays claim to things that do not belong exclusively to it. The metaphysics are not true. This is just stupid!😮 Morality is not exclusively a property of your religions.

[@alastaircooper953]

An excellent episode! Peter has been churning out some brilliant episodes recently but to see him get together with Paul (who has recently become a Pastor I now listen to) is outstanding. Great questions on both sides.

[@danhester3768]

Peter and Paul discerning their beliefs about God on the banks of a river. Seems very biblical.

[@Winterascent]

Yeah, but it's London!

[@Gorbyrev]

What a beautiful, honest and perceptive conversation. Thank you so much Peter.

[@jeffrelewis]

Neato dude!

[@milanmarcuccino3168]

Wow. Pastor Paul and Peter Bogosian the duo we didn’t know we needed.❤❤

[@justanothernick3984]

This comment goes to show how people really do think the same. All over KZbin in the 2020s. And top voted... Congrats on the copy & paste work.

[@Padronfan]

No joke

[@TheHangedMan]

This is beautiful, and how I wish Christians and atheists could have been communicating all along. I am struck by the fact that it took an "outside" enemy, Wokeism, to really drive home the value similarities between many atheists and Christians, and lead to this type of ongoing, productive, respectful dialogue.

[@kennorthunder2428]

Yeah, but I've seen the same visiousness from the eariler versions of the "new athiests" against Christians just like these "woke" people; and a lot of these woke people seem to be athiests too. Starting through the Obama years, there were strongly worded suggestions that athiesim should rule the roost through academia, government and the judical system and that Christianity should be irraticated - a different varient of "cancel culture". Wokism took that path instead. Peter is older and wiser through bitter experience. Slippery slope?

[@HIIIBEAR]

​@@kennorthunder2428that's like saying not wanting flat earth taught is wokeism. Either you recognize Christianity doesn't meet the standard of evidence or you're delusional. There is no in-between unless you publish that evidence

[@gre8]

A bit of christian mea culpa. When the neo-atheists first appeared, the intellectual state of Christianity in the west was indeed really poor. It was complacent. I think neo-atheism really helped to hammer out the bad christian arguments that went around at the time (I was there, I remember). It encouraged apologists to study deeper. It forced christians to be more morally reflective. It awakened christians to become more aware of what they believed and it brought more awareness to phony pastors that dominated media in the U.S. It think it was fire that helped to burn some chaff away.

[@excalibro8365]

@@kennorthunder2428 Wokism is the worst kind of religion, because they worship no god but themselves.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

Grammar Police here: capitalize "A"theists. We Christians should be careful to common courtesy, i.e. treat others the way we want to be treated. ( Not saying you intended to be disrespectful. )

[@rosemaryalles6043]

Love this. Disparate views engaged in civil disagreement. Well done. 😍

[@rowlandharryweston6037]

When these kinds of conversations are normative, then we are moving in the right direction.

[@allyourbase888]

PVK has been one of, if not the best grappler in this game. ❤❤❤ IT!

[@jacktaylor432]

“If you made a mistake, it’s an eternal mistake.” Great conversation between friends who respect & challenge each other.

[@yosefrazin6455]

Can finally appreciate Paul's height! Awesome to see you guys together!

[@allyourbase888]

Wow! Another excellent and unexpected collaboration. ❤ you both! Giving Thanks for both these fine men on Thanksgiving. 🙏🏾🇺🇸🦃❤

[@SebastianVaz]

thanks for the awesome content, I very much appreciate seeing individuals being open and civil :)

[@drpeterboghossian]

Our pleasure!

[@jpstahl2939]

I'd just like to echo Pastor VanderKlay's sentiments that I appreciate the spirit in which you ask these questions and play this thought provoking game.

[@jerrystokes8809]

This is literally your best yet. It felt to me like two close friends talking about their divorce. It was real and very intimate which is what a serious conversation based on good faith looks like. Serioulsy gave me some bloody hope we can get through this bizarre period of our civilization. Bravo to you both for being so open and sharing this with us.

[@michaelkistner6286]

One of the things I've always admired about Dr Beghossian is his relentless intellectual honesty. This conversation really highlighted that facet of his character. Rev Vander Klay is the same, although he does have to filter himself a bit because of his institutional commitments. All in all a very good conversation.

[@Smithistory]

Eh, he produces a ton of content that is mainly stream of consciousness and doesn't seem to hold back.

[@Smithistory]

Also his denomination has bigger topics they are dealing with than an outspoken pastor who is fairly mainstream within his denomination and a born and raised CRC guy.

[@logoimotions]

A fair statement though I don't think he does that.

[@tgrogan6049]

"Filter because of his institutional commitments" you mean "lie to keep his job"?

[@michaelkistner6286]

@@tgrogan6049 No. Not lie. Be careful because he's speaking as a representative of an institution.

[@BlackBoxMediaCompany]

Peter, I am supportive of your "substitutionary theory" almost 100%. I recognized this over a decade ago as I was "deconstructing" my religiously held beliefs and listening and reading guys like John Loftus and Bruce Gerenscer. I noticed that they had rejected their religious beliefs and sort of wiped the slate clean removing any other beliefs that they perceived connected with that world view. Instead of enhancing their epistemology and doing the work to re-evaluate they simply accepted a more "liberal" world view that contrasted with the former view they had held in concert with the religious beliefs. It was simply a reactionary substitution rather than a contemplative re-evaluation. I would like to examine this deeper. Thanks for your work!

[@microsoftpain]

This is a fantastic episode of SSE. Great stuff, Peter. 🙏

[@zeusthecat6295]

I'm glad Peter has switched up the format to allow his guests to question him. I think he provides a great example for how one should approach difficult questions and when one should just accept that they need to spend more time considering a particular issue.

[@shogant]

It’s always refreshing to hear people express themselves clearly and respectfully. Both sides asked interesting questions, and I’m glad you guys were looking for disagreement as if it was novelty.

[@janetoliver9561]

Two of my favorite thinkers!

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

Bravo Paul and Peter

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Can’t wait for Friday morning nameless to remix this

[@I4MWH014M]

Very glad to see this. Keep up the good work Pastor Paul.

[@RhiannonPhelangiesDelore]

Peters responses are reflect my view so well! Thanks for being honest Peter and putting this gold out.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks, and my sincere thanks to Paul.

[@iftheshuafits4268]

This is one of the most interesting and enlightening episodes youve done. Great claims on both sides.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@jon_doran]

This was great. Would love to see more of these two speaking together. It's so valuable to have ethical and thoughtful dialogue partners. Great conversation.

[@leszeknowak9434]

I'm huge fan of your work for around 10 years and the more you share your insights publicly the more I admire your inner modes of thinking. Street epistemology inspired me & others in the crew to launch The Aheist Experience like show in massively catholic Poland and I'm very happy to see that SE is spreading around. Peter, again thank you so much and please keep fighting the good fight. 💚 Video above is just another example of your deeply rooted intelectual honesty and man, we need that more in the world.

[@MrTripleAgamer]

God bless you both great conversation 👍

[@matthewkilbride1669]

Apologize for too many comments. Last one. This was a fun concept and am thoroughly enjoying it. Thanks both!

[@jeremiahcollins9630]

As someone who had a boss who was a 6’4 Dutch Calvin University grad, this is just great.

[@rdub4nd]

Love Paul! Great move Pete.

[@scillyautomatic]

Great conversation! VanderKlay explains himself pretty well. THANK YOU Peter for not being condescending to the Christian. Not all atheists are so gracious.

[@tajender_singh]

Thanks Peter for playing the game yourself, its about time!

[@emy_2510]

Paul on fire. A collab I didn't know I needed :). Thank you both

[@drpeterboghossian]

Our pleasure!

[@bernmahan1162]

Great to see you respectfully discussing with a believer! Thanks.

[@drpeterboghossian]

I appreciate that!

[@matthewkilbride1669]

Despite my previous snide comment, well done Peter for having Paul on. There's alot of wisdom and value in relatively "ordinary" people that the intelligentsia misses out on precisely because they are the intelligentsia. It's more of a vocational description than an objective evaluation. Admittedly though, sifting the diamonds from the rough is a tremendous task, yet not therefore not worth doing. Paul, for instance, is worth a thousand Dave Rubins (ugggh).

[@rdub4nd]

Deep thinkers thinking deeply. Can ee get more of this please

[@Apistevist]

Well, 1 deep thinker at least.

[@heatherwillis5505]

@@Apistevist What a dork you are

[@davidbee9563]

In having a discourse with someone you do not agree with, it is important to begin with respecting them as a person. Their reaction will prove you right or wrong. If they begin by attacking you as a person because you don't agree with them that is called political debate. There is always something you can learn if you are open to do so.

[@carolinem1698]

I love both men for different reasons. I’m a Christian and love listening to VDK talk about God and Jesus. And I love that PB, as a liberal, sees truth (at least some truths).

[@tsims7638]

Amazing claims and wonderful discussion, thank you both so much!

[@jessezandee9282]

Glad to see Paul with you Peter

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks. Paul is great.

[@jeffersonianideal]

Before engaging into a discourse about whether god exists, one must define specifically what god is.

[@RightInChrist]

I've heard God is ineffable. I know God as the feeling of unconditional love. Epiphenomenal Qualia.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@RightInChrist Copout answer.

[@RightInChrist]

@@jeffersonianideal define the taste of a banana

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@RightInChrist Will doing so categorically prove the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent deity?

[@RightInChrist]

@@jeffersonianideal nope - it will just help you find peace and become more loving

[@corykobel6117]

Wonderful conversation! Thank you for this.

[@michaelparsons3007]

Glad to see this duo.

[@samDbaron]

Awesome to see Peter and Paul collaborating. When I was a kid I used to stay at Paul’s house in Barahona. He introduced me to the computer game civilization for which I am eternally grateful. It is fun to see him with one of me favourite KZbinrs now. Keep up the good work guys!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you! What civilization did you play?

[@ReasonAboveEverything]

This was such a nice exchange.

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

Peter could we get a Peter and Paul Rando conversation please?

[@zstrauss1]

This was my favorite so far. Great dialogue. Nice to hear Peter talk more and Preacher pushed him. I also think it is easier to be a NPC if you are an extremist, because it usually comes with a script they have to adhere to.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@PRAR1966]

Sometimes I think there needs to be a referee on semantics and hone in on the nuance - but the free flowing style of this format as is - is nice ❣

[@tbishop4961]

This was great. I don't like most preachers, but this guy is brilliant

[@pdxnikki1]

Thanks, Peter. Your answer to the question about being is revealing; pain is valued. Thats very Christian. 😊🙏

[@mostlynotworking4112]

This Little Corner representing!❤

[@notavictim2007]

The honesty on display here is RIVETING

[@jackiekjono]

I’m glad to get some reassurance in the all important dogs versus no dogs in heaven. I can’t imagine a place being very heavenly without dogs.

[@Saylor_On_Shore]

Oh my goodness, a dream duo!

[@EvangelistDanielKing]

As a Christian who has read Peter's book on making Atheists, this is the conversation that I have been wanting to hear. Great questions on both sides.

[@TimC_1964]

Much better than I thought this was going to be. Thank you!

[@justbradsands]

Peters thoughts on eternity is something I’ve felt forever. The idea of dying and being no more is not more scary than living FOREVER with no end. Both can be terrifying propositions.

[@benjaminandersson2572]

Wow, the background is really beautifully shot.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank Reid for that!

[@alexanderlindsley5016]

This was amazing!!! Great convos but just great watching 2 people who disagree on very basic beliefs value each other and have some laughs

[@bscottc1]

This is my favorite of all the videos in which I've seen Paul make an appearance.

[@OntheOtherHandVideos]

While I'm no fan of Calvinism, this was a wonderful discussion! Thanks!

[@middlesismonica]

Great episode. I really enjoyed the line of questioning. I even paused the video at times to formulate my own answer.

[@kkplx]

lovely exchange, one of my favorite videos ever on your channel. "the house of atheism" - does that refer to the 2012 atheism+ debacle? i think it was lovely in part because it didn't feel like academics, but human beings, genuinely entertaining but not overthinking hypotheticals.

[@Bloke-in-Stoke]

Gob-smackingly great discussion. More please, I loved it! 😀😀😀 Cheers from the UK 🍺

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@geoffjensen5305]

Great content, thank you!

[@brycew2]

Brilliant. Love you two.

[@purpleniumowlbear2952]

I’m just here to soak up all the wholesome comments. Great way to start the day.

[@lukemackenzie9073]

More of these one on ones please.

[@Randomoter]

I love the P&P show. When is the next one?

[@jacobnussbaum2309]

The reason i respect Peter over so many other anti woke activists, and especially woke activists, is that he is willing and able to have these conversations. An avowed anti-religious new-atheist being this interested in genuine dialogue with a Christian.

[@resilientrecoveryministries]

The last name, the height, the answers. Paul is Dutch Calvism personified. 😂

[@Apriluser]

😂

[@patrickbarnes9874]

Why would you say that? What about his answers was Dutch Calvinism personified? Are the Dutch Calvinists Unitarian Universalist style cultural Christians?

[@tgrogan6049]

The god of Calvinism is a monster. The doctrines espoused by the CRC are monstrous rubbish. PVK is a bullshit artist and not a straight shooter. He talks people to death.

[@kimartella7670]

Amazing video, thank you so much for this

[@srduncanbyu]

can anyone tell me what is the referenced "divorce of the house of atheism"? 12:50

[@phyllislovelace8151]

Thank you gentlemen!

[@jeffersonianideal]

Dr. Boghossian, What does "the divorce of the house of atheism" mean?

[@jeffersonianideal]

@phlebas9204 "The New Atheist moment largely collapsed from internal squabbling." What specific moment are you referencing?

[@jeffersonianideal]

@phlebas9204 Is it the energy that matters or the validity of the arguments?

[@ramudon2428]

I never even knew we had a house. Nor that it mattered much if Dennet and Harris don't see eye to eye on free will to any of us. Though the answer to the question makes it seem to be regarding trans issues, not some uncalibrated Dawkins-stuff.

[@fjorir_official]

As an aside, Spectrum Street Epistemology is such a cool name.

[@NearShoreLiving]

Very beautiful conversation.

[@margaretbenhamu7784]

Another amazing episode! Make it an Orthodox Jew and a Christian next time. Would love to see the overlap and differences. (Being a Jew myself)

[@sharptyler988]

Please come to SLC, UT. We would love to have your epistemology on our streets!

[@finnhoydal2028]

it would cool if they shared a podcast

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

For sure!

[@allyourbase888]

I agree.

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Peter Paul and bring in Mary Harrington 😂

[@Galop-rk3lc]

Oh... this is a lovely surprise.

[@2lasizwe]

The background looks great

[@desertrose0601]

This was cool! I enjoyed this conversation. Happy Thanksgiving to you, Peter!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Same to you!

[@MrCalebgrayson]

i really enjoyed this. i’ve been working on shifting my epistemic inquiry from truthiness to cost/benefit evaluation as most people aren’t motivated by truth but by many other things. i make a grid for a claim T F cost benefit the inquiry opens up people’s hidden motivations for ‘shield’ beliefs they only hold to protect those ‘irrational’ primary beliefs.

[@toms7114]

In a world without pain there would be no atheism? Strongly agree, because without pain the would be no religion, because religion is about finding ways to ascend beyond the pain of life. Without religion there could not be atheism as its mirrored reflection of beliefs.

[@cliff7201]

Can someone answer this for me: what is the "divorce of the house of atheism"? They talk about this a few times, but I don't really know what they mean by that, and Google doesn't seem to be helping.

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Something about woke taking over and trying to evolve to atheism plus. It’s explained out there but sorry can’t quickly bring it to mind

[@armondeushon7892]

Peter, parev, great video, have your books and follow your work. "In a world without pain, there would be no need for atheism" what a question, had me really excited, i was like ive been snookered by a christian.....then i though;the answer is in the question, because for the utopian world he imagines, there would be no need for atheism because for atheism to exist, religion and gods must have to exist, therefore there would be no need for atheism....religion is atheisms fuel. Peter keep doing whatvyour doing, because its supremely entertaining. Shonoragalem.

[@russellcook3922]

Paul way taller than I thought!

[@suzannah2769]

I love seeing you doing this Peter! But I feel you skipped over your explanations and still mostly just asked questions, I would have loved to see expanded explanations for your decisions. The question about whether you would prefer your children to be muslims or atheists? You concurred that many atheists hold Christian values, but I would have been interested to hear your thoughts on why this is preferable to the muslim religion? I agree with you, but I felt further discussion of this was needed. Thank you for all the work that you do. PS I live opposite to where you filmed this! Wish I'd been walking by!

[@scproinc]

Great segment

[@andrewjackson7014]

Wonderful!!!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Many thanks!!

[@JiraiyaSama86]

Now that is interesting. Atheism as a form of Protestantism. Going to have to think about that.

[@Phoenix-Cloud]

Physical health is more important than spiritual health question all depends on what you really mean when you say spiritual. It depends on if you consider your thoughts as spiritual because I would rather be 100% paralyzed but happy in my mind while laying in a hospital bed for 100 years than I would be physically 100% fine but go to sleep every night unhappy in my mind. I think that is a huge lesson alot of people miss. They spend their entire lives trying to be physically happy but always want more or a better job compared to someone who has a hard life with a lower paying job but is content. I know alot of research shows that money improves a person's happiness up to a certain point which is normally not being worried about having a home to go to or not being able to eat but after that it starts to take more and more to get the same improvement to the mental state.

[@Apistevist]

When are you going to have a discussion with Rationality Rules?

[@matthewkilbride1669]

What do you know? Jacob was right; Paul is at the big boy table. All that really means though is higher production value.

[@k4sar1]

Trying to find information about "the divorce of the house of atheism" that is mentioned a couple of times here. Google doesn't seem to be aware of this event... exactly what and when was it?

[@justinverwoerd3705]

What a clash of worlds, in the best way possible

[@Luke-nu6xv]

Man.. I hated so much of this. But we need more of this. Keep it up. Good shit boys.