DS 3 | On Killing Co-Invaders

[@asenathssecret778]

“you can choose to believe that all Fingers share camoradarie. But do not force your romance on the rest of us.” - Leonhard

[@Crowned_PvP]

This sums it up, I thought that Leonard was a bit of an arse at first, now I realise heysel probably coinvaded with hsm which combo'd into a blender

[@honkyjesuseternal]

The problem is Amish doesn't abide by that, he never kills coins. He is being dishonest.

[@eyesontheinsides]

@@Crowned_PvP lmfao crowned gg

[@im_cart8656]

yea yea lore lore.. but seriously nobody that does pvp is giving a shit about the lore during invasions/pvp... they just want to win or kill another player. i disagreed with amish once when i said the guys that rp aldrich and "all trespassers must die" including reds were actually rping.. he said that's just their excuse cause their bad.. and i now agree with him.. i think they just want some easy kills because they tried invading and found it too hard.. so coming in as an aldrich and ganking with the hosts is them getting back at the reds that ruined their "want to play coop with friends" and because they couldn't handle a 1v1 anyways.. it's like in rust when u got a compound bow trying to make a play on a sar kid.. and 2 revolver kids go for you instead of the sar.. or people that build big bases and just kill nakeds all day.. they can't handle fighting any1 that is not shit but traitors have a built in lore excuse

[@Crowned_PvP]

@@im_cart8656 I do pvp a lot but when i wanna rp a dumb character then i will, i see it the same as any moral guideline you have in game (like no bow glitching pvers or whatever), i see it as another ruleset for that character. but i def agree that most of the time turncoats are pretty dumb. only time i've been happy with being a turncoat is if the coinvader is being a complete nuisance

[@SurvivalHorrors]

Honest artorias aldrich - *moves left stick 3mm in the wrong direction* Red lapp man - I see you have chosen death

[@lakimball]

The absolute worst are the honorable Watchdogs who will sit in the woods and watch you "duel" a host. They will not help. They will idle as you get whooped. I swear It happens more often than not.

[@Rakshael]

I despise these guys- Aldritches sometimes do it as well, drives me up the wall. I'll wait around if I stumble on a fightclub, sometimes, but if you can clearly see it's not a duel you need to jump in and help your coinvader, jeez louize

[@MultiDraco999]

@@Rakshael eh sometimes I could care less about winning or losing. If a host is doing survival and they're good I'd rather them quickly kill the worse player so I can have a quality fight with someone.

[@Rakshael]

@@MultiDraco999 ah, truthfully man I really would ask that if that's your mentality please just use the Arena or start a fightclub

[@loftwingheropon2743]

I’ve had this happen with regular invaders in the pontiff area where I kept invading the same person and every time and every time there was another invader they would just sit out and wait for me to die, now I’m not the best at pvp so I lose that’s on me but this wasn’t a fight club so I don’t understand why no one was helping.

[@MultiDraco999]

@@Rakshael for some reason KZbin deleted my comment. Anyway, most people in arena are not good at the game, and it takes too long to set up a fight club. You can go into arena and win about 90-95% of them, atleast in my time zone.

[@antekralj7875]

I guess Ill just put on moundmakers and play the game as intended.

[@steeliumevergard3888]

Its honest work 😎

[@Chris-re3lv]

Meet your moundmakers today.

[@antekralj7875]

Purple sign down.

[@Chris-re3lv]

@@antekralj7875 Once you go purple, you can never go back.

[@kindlingking]

Why even bother with all this coinvasion and gank stuff, when you can just go purple and do some wacky shit. Like archiving world peace with Warmth, randomly committing sudoku in front of the confused host without estus, backstabbing the said hosts and coinvaiders or just starting cults.

[@ravenofash9234]

I think G9 was in the right. Even if the red was not experienced. He knew that he was hurting G9. I would have done the same. Context matters and you ilustrated that well. I tend to be very lenient towards other reds. I remember one invasion where, because of the lock on of ds3, a glass cannon sorcerer hit me 3 times with a crystal souls spear at meta level taking 80% of my health each time. He then made the curl up gesture meaning that he was sorry. I did a bow gesture and we continued the invasion. People will do mistakes, thats fine. But acting like an idiot will get you killed by a more experienced red. I killed my fair share of reds that just didnt care if they were hitting me.

[@iamamish]

Thanks Raven and you hit it - it's when they don't care; they're indifferent to hitting you It's very irritating.

[@Rakshael]

context of them being apathetic or clearly "trying and still figuring it out" is huge

[@aiden1665]

Sometimes killing them is the only way to handle it. Especially when they’re so negligent you just know they’re gonna cost you the invasion at the last second, at the end of the day they’re gonna find out one way or another that it’s almost never a good idea to put damage on a fellow red

[@Nameless_Knightt]

So you kill reds because of hitting you by accident? Smh

[@Rakshael]

@@Nameless_Knightt bro you gotta expand nuance beyond a black/white rule that only exists in a vacuum

[@Chris-re3lv]

Ineptitude isn't a crime to me. If I have a teammate who is unintentionally hitting me, I will just hang back and poke the host or gank from a distance with bows, spells, and spears. I have more fun that way. I value fun more than milking every last erg of efficiency. The traitors though, get dispatched as soon as humanly possible. I want good coinvaders, but I will settle for mediocre, and I don't abide the traitors. Otherwise, I prioritize fun over all else.

[@daigoroec]

no hitting coinvaders is one of those things you have to learn. is legit to lose patience and kill someone is hittin you again and again, but tolerance with noobs is important. instead send him/her a message and maybe she/he will learn something.

[@iamamish]

I'm on the fence. I want more players playing, and that means being tolerant of new players. And honestly, I think I really am! I put up with all kinds of mistakes, and it doesn't bother me one bit. But - I really draw the line at hitting me over & over without even a care. You can see this co-invader in Jee's video *literally did not care about hitting him*. It wasn't even on his radar. Sure, you could message him, but I think targeted him helps send the message too. Maybe even a friendly message afterward - "I killed you because you made no attempts at avoiding hitting me."

[@daigoroec]

@@iamamish sure. that is a good solution too. waiting for your ER content. there are a lot of good content creators today we didnt have in early ds3 days. i dont know if i will have enougth time to play and watch utube.

[@Nameless_Knightt]

@@iamamish the co invader didn't care? What did you want him to do when the host is running away to heal?

[@Nameless_Knightt]

@@iamamish there is no voice chat you can't simply tell if they cared or not even if he didn't care why do you care? It was just a mistake did his hit really hurt your ego?

[@Nameless_Knightt]

@@iamamish killed you because you made no attempts to avoid hitting me? Obviously invader don't wanna kill his co invader because he might ganked by phantoms Hitting you is an accident there is no such thing as attempt to avoid hitting you since it's an accident Any co invader hitting you makes attempts to avoid hitting it's just an accident that happened maybe he did this because he thought the host will roll into him so he did that in advance Idk what attempt you are saying like you want them to have the weapon of your choice or else you die lol The dude that jeenine killed did a one time mistake and got killed for it by a tryhard like g9 that's shitty and sad to be a traitor like this you're justifying toxic and asshole behaviour

[@soulreaper1461]

But the "Hello" Carving is a psychological technique to make the gank more fond of you thus generating windows to exploit and backstab

[@Nameless_Knightt]

That's called being worse than a stray dog and shitter behaviour lol

[@luismatias5985]

Hello carving gives a sense of friendship

[@puppybrainedmutt]

lost so many kills because a coinvader hits me trying to finish off the host

[@ricardolazo1565]

The game allows "friendly fire" among reds, from the point of view of the lore, you can decide to play as a team or eliminate another red. The same game tells you in the dialogue you have with leonhard in rosaria's rooms.

[@qytheqtpie]

Killing your coinvader is also a quick and easy source of ashen estus if you’re running low

[@iamamish]

Only if they have “qy” in their name

[@qytheqtpie]

@@iamamish Render unto estus. I die so that others may drink!

[@Rakshael]

from what I wrote on Jee's video: I killed an Aldritch as a red once when he kept chasing the host with the Abyss Watchers UGS. He clearly didn't understand what he was doing because he kept using L1 and hitting both his fellow reds. I was sick of it after the fourth time, and decided he'd have more luck and better invasions if he learned to pay attention and switch weapons when chasing. Was happy to teach him the lesson even though it cost me 3 estus to kill him. I never saw him again and ended up winning the invasion anyways. On the other hand I've also been guilty of accidentally hitting coinvaders more than necessary and receiving grace from them, which motivated me more to do better and be more mindful as a teammate- *but I was already self-aware that I needed to do a better job as a teammate.*

[@iamamish]

We all hit each other from time to time - as long as you're trying not to, that's the key.

[@VeillPvP]

I am pretty known for killing my teammates, but I do it for one of 4 reasons. 1. They are doing more damage to the other invaders than the host. 2. They saved the host or a phantom from death by either hitting me, a coinvade, or hitting them mid combo, making the invasion take longer. 3. They are just standing around. 4. The value of them being an estus on layaway has become higher than their value as a distraction / extra body.

[@iamamish]

I can respect that approach, but it's not for me. I'm not that ruthless about it, but I think it is a totally defensible approach.

[@Prynne_]

I hate to admit it, but the hatred of mages, especially at Pontiff, feels at least partially justified. Most players, especially when it comes to sorceries, fail to recognize that there is a very small pool of spells that are appropriate for invasions, and an even smaller pool of spells that are appropriate for most situations - some of which fulfill extremely specific niches at meta, like Soul Stream. The soulmass spells can be invaluable as a solo invader when applied properly, but can be just detrimental in a coinvasion. The same goes for Black Serpent - an excellent initiation tool that can completely demolish a coinvader. Most mages will not recognize this at all, and act as yet another obstacle, in all the ways you have described. As someone who runs caster builds pretty regularly, I have to recognize that I, more than most, have to have a lot of restraint and control when it comes to what spell I use when, and even then, it's still impossible to completely avoid friendly fire, as with any weapon in the game. But when I see a Duskcrown Wizard with the Court Sorcerer's going exclusively for CSS kills, then I have a problem.

[@iamamish]

My theory is that most mages are just PVE players trying out invasions

[@hagiasofia6179]

@@iamamish I would rather say that there are not many experienced casters because even experienced melee players are not very often willing to dedicate their precious time to master a different playstyle; and casting, if it is not be a "supporting cast", surely requires a different playstyle because its options (the number of spells you can equip vs. the number of weapons with different speeds and moveset) and resources (FP vs. infinite swinging) are very limited. But, in the end there are two basic advices that are useful for both melee players and casters: 1) observe your teammates and adapt to their playstyle and 2) if your teammate is on somebody do not interfere until he or she is under pressure. Be it as it may: great video as always!

[@wexdust]

I've killed so many players, l've killed your meta idols without too much effort and without cheating/glitching but l refrain from killing other reds, even if l hate them as players (means l know them from the past). The thing is we both have the same goal so no personal grudges. There have been multiple times where l have decided to die by the hand of my co-invader so we could reach mutual goal especially if the person co-invading is also streaming by chance. Me knowing that the invasion was successful after my sacrifice had bring me such joy like l was the one to actually win. In other cases I'm friendly but l do give a side eye for the Aldriches, they are not to be trusted..

[@pretty_fly_for_a_jeskai]

Ive had co invaders at meta immediately target me simply when they realize I'm a mage, but I've seen enough of the average mage co invader that I cant entirely fault them for it That's why I make a point to mainly use spells like GSA even at meta. Chip damage, not one-shot damage. I will hurt co's but not terribly and I can recover fast enough to throw myself in if I need to. Daggers like aqua are also really nice for focusing in on opponent.

[@dustinmcclung4497]

Yeah. The amount of hate I got for just playing a mage was pretty crazy, luckily though I've never went full mage, I always have at least two decent melee weapons on me so I can adapt to any situation.

[@baatzy]

With all due respect, as someone who loves DS3 PVP and invading, discussions like this remind me how toxic the DS3 community can sometimes be. People aren’t upset about invaders killing traitor reds, they are offended by co-invaders killing each other over arrogance or for some quick estus. Learning to invade is hard enough for beginners and it’s more inclusive to lead by good example. Obviously some reds will be traitorous and deserve retribution, but we shouldn’t so quickly cannibalize our fellow reds. The PVP community is small enough as is.

[@geniuslevels200iq]

real talk

[@aiden1665]

That last point you made about earning your co invader’s respect is such a huge one. I have had times where an Aldrich or red will come in and end up doing lots of damage to me, and then when they get run down by the whole team I’m like fuck that guy just kill him and give me my estus. At most I might run towards them to get some free hits off while they’re distracted but saving him is not my priority at all. On the opposite end of the spectrum I’ve had teammates that played huge crucial roles in invasions where they were doing big damage or maybe had already killed couple blues or something like that, and when they get run down I jump in because that teamate is much more valuable than the couple healing items I might expend trying to draw aggro off him

[@eyesontheinsides]

I think generally you can put coinvaders that may need killing into 2 buckets: high effort with good intentions and low/disruptive effort with questionable intentions. The first group is mainly noobs and players who just don't seek out more information and community outside of the game, and I think it's actually important to let a gank kill them. That's how invaders learn. If it's a conduct issue than yeah. I think that the logical consequence should be a co killing them. For the other group, the trolls, the false flag gankers and the memers, they should be killed every time. But you have to make a calculation as to whether opening that can of worms will actually make your job harder and whether you potentially have the stomach for a long chase. Good vid amish

[@BadgerOrion]

I've had some truly terrible co-invaders. As long as they aren't intentionally targeting me, I'll call it a win lol. I pretty much agree with everything you said. I'd call this justified but I understand why people reacted negatively.

[@Jeenine]

I think that G9 guy is a complete doodoohead and that Amish guy is even worse! These content creators think everything for them is permitted..

[@epideme3416]

😂

[@argus8328]

Honestly I haven't played a single video game in about half a year now due to other priorities, but I still love these videos of yours and I find your insight to these topics very interesting! Keep up the good content, can't wait to see what you do with ER!

[@Murder_McFly]

I should really kill bad coinvaders more often. I rarely ever do, maybe I'm just being to nice 😖

[@Nexus-.9]

I will definitely let a hit or 2 slide but if my coinvader hits me multiple times while chasing a phantom or host is running by using a wide swipe weapon (short sword or greatsword) I will stop what I’m doing to kill him. I was in an invasion with hak earlier and host was running fog wall which hak was blocking for me to finish him, there was another red too and I nearly had the host beat then the invader gets overly involved instead of waiting and hit me multiple times allowing him to heal. At this point I gave up the invasion and hak didn’t agree with what I done but I let the host escape so I could kill the red.

[@MrEdmie]

It was controversial for people living in lalaland. At some point you realize it's a survival game when you invade and you need any co invader you get to be at least not making the situation worse than alone. Worst case scenario should be the co is bad and he's a free estus. Now you have the mages that tend to be horrible co invaders, hit and run type. Shooting you in the back and letting you have the agro of everyone when running away. You also have the millwood bow specialists in the same category. Hidding somewhere at a distance (ringed city bridges helloooo) with the obscuring ring, missing 90% of their shots, with the 10% remaining hitting you while trying to manage 4 opponents at the same time. And to close thia topic (rant), you have the "honorable" co invaders that sit back and let you duel or 2v2 when they are tipping the scale for the invading party. They seem not to know that invaders are still at a disadvantage with friendly fire and less health/estus than the host. Boy I want to kill all the aforementioned.

[@iamamish]

YES. Especially when you fight a 3v1 and manage to kill 2 of the phantoms, and then the dumb co-invader invades and leaves you with the host for your 'honor duel'

[@MrEdmie]

@@iamamish Haha yes. Then when you are in your You Died animation, you see the guy doing a dignified bow gesture to the host to engage. So enraging. They are role playing the gentleman invader.

[@hotbeatz0]

That rarest of things, a good wizard co-invader. (honestly, it's a special treat to find a co-invader at all in DS3 these days)

[@edyburkay]

Yes, many players attack their coinvader for wrong reasons. I used to cosplay as fallen knight and act like noob. And a red guy in Lapp armor immediately attacked me when I invaded. He was fighting the gank, saw me and attacked me. I did nothing, just came by. It ended up being his own demise :) . You should give players a chance to at least make a mistake. While G9 is kind of very deadly against everyone including his teammates, it is for good reasons. He is also much more forgiving these days. I remember him killing 4 man squads, and every teammates just because he was pissed and saying everybody dies today :)

[@user-cz1fy8ng7g]

Faithfuls have a point though when they attack other invaders. They sacrifice a lot of levels in the matchmaking for having no friendly-fire and no blues coming. When other invaders (non-faithfuls) come to the area though, they are ruining those benefits all at once... which understandably can make faithfuls somewhat dissatisfied about it.

[@user-cz1fy8ng7g]

@oohanalligator Nah, I do not think a lot of people are taking that into consideration, most of them do not even know how poise (or sometimes even the multiplicative defense stacking all together) works so I would not expect.. Just wanted to make a point. Yeah, reds would never be out. However it is super-hilarious when host who wanted to gank with blues gets 3 faithfulls as invaders. Happened only once to me in all that years (although I do not ever touch Pontiff unless need the items), but that was one legit situation where host was objectively in a huge disadvantage (still not as much as conventional 3v1 for invader, but sill outstanding case).

[@im_cart8656]

love re watching these from time to time... better days

[@alchemy5750]

I hate when I get killed by a co-invader, chasing a host after I did most of the work and defeated the phantoms/blues. Especially since I always switch to a "pursuit weapon" when the host escapes that really has no risk of hitting my partners and good for rollcatch - and then the other invader just charges on with a greatsword/greathammer and ends up killing me with it. Also if you're a mage and you invade, by any means, don't ever use the homing/crystal soulmass. The aim system's not gonna favor your invading buddy and you'll eventually end up hitting them with all.

[@pigskin94pvp82]

I think the longer you invade the less patience you have with newer invaders because it gets tiring dealing with players who have no awareness at all. I know personally my patience for stupidity has gone way down over the years of playing these games. Props to other invaders who can work around this btw I sure as hell can’t 😆

[@khirman1]

I'm glad you mentioned purples, as I usually target whoever's nearest unless the host is weak and it's faster to kill them.

[@edyburkay]

You should mainly identify good connection ones, mages, low health ones, noobs in ganks and start off with them. A latent phantom even if mage, will just panicroll away for example.

[@khirman1]

@@edyburkay Except that the only way I can rollcatch someone is if I'm R1 spamming, run out of stamina, and stamina comes back at the time that allows me to rollcatch. Panicrolling is an effective tactic against me.

[@edyburkay]

@@khirman1 there are a lot of ways to rollcatch players with good connection. Timing changes with every weapon, but easy to grasp

[@chronicdelight879]

Dividing and conquering, hit confirming, and knowing when to pull back are all concepts that the average co-invader seems to not understand

[@saintsol4928]

Best argument to make is equipping Moundmakers and role playing as a mad dark spirit so no one thinks you’re a brainless Aldrich memer.

[@jiddy30]

The worst is when im low and making my escape to heal and a red hits me as im getting away from the host and i die

[@ArtemisiaDS3]

I kill my teammates based on some conditions. 1. If they're not helping at all. 2. If they consistently hit me multiple times because they're reckless. I'm forgiving but theres a point where the recklessness is unacceptable. 3. If they're a traitor. 4. If they're overall a terrible player and I'm in a world that requires actual help (rare case). 5. If they're being scummy and using a glitch that isnt justified.

[@MrBiggbugg35]

I like when my co invader is on the same page and switches to a spear at the same time and takes turns attacking.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

Honestly, I really do understand killing for friendly fire at least: I play mages a lot and it did take me awhile to learn to be more cautious with my spells. Most of the "Good" players just give me bad vibes, but I do understand the whole deal somewhat: losing is frustrating, especially to carelessness. Invading with Autism and a high sense of honor is... difficult sometimes because I always die to things I know how to deal with and I just cannot parry or consistently space. It is why I stopped using the orb and just did duels with my red sign. I always have and always will struggle with fighting more than one strong enemy of player at once, especially with my priority of form over function. Lately, I have just been wanting to forsake invasions entirely and just be a summon to help with the harder bosses and in Elden Ring, I may focus on protecting new players from invasion with the experience I have. I always have so much to say and ramble a bit about invasions... My journey through PvP has been a rough one. I just want to show off my efforts, what my characters can do: displaying art more than anything else.

[@crescentwolf7072]

Definatly something to meditate on before ER releases.

[@zlaxxi]

I'd rather get killed by my co-invader than get my fucking game restarted for the 3rd time today

[@childofanu7215]

In the case of the G9 clip that red absolutely should have died. A bonfire gank in TRC is annoying enough.

[@MarslKart]

my first ever invasion i was killed by my red teammate for friendly fire lol.

[@jiveequation186]

The only time I feel like this is bullshit is when I’m already getting ganked and the other red joins the hosts side for some sus Ass reason

[@tehnemesis325guy]

Vegeta gone and killed one of Frieza's minions again...

[@szymon657]

I love Your videos, cause they look indeeply into many things concernig invasions. Thanks for that

[@iamamish]

Thank you, I'm glad you like them!

[@clognog8049]

So far i have only needed to kill them if they try to kill me. Some times as a mage i would point my homing mass away from my co invaders. Then they notice me act weird and try attack me because i would not face them. i may have killed some because they were a big hazard as well, but not much.

[@honestdog8583]

UNRELATED QUESTION, does anyone else notice that they play worse when they go from PC to PS4?

[@iamamish]

Yes, you can't space as tightly and the lower frame rate makes it harder to react to attacks.

[@honestdog8583]

@@iamamish I figured that you would know, because you also bounce between them. I can't figure out why the spacing would change though.

[@rbz0]

this video felt like dissecting a grapefruit

[@red_girl_panic]

At the beginning: good ol' NGH 🙈

[@ghorstbusters6238]

Love that we’re. Still getting content for this game.

[@oldensad5541]

If you look closley EVEN THE HOST is ok with G9 killing his teammate. He just stand still, do not use the situation, do not try to get hits on G9, just standing and sorta "yep dude, kill this guy and lets finish this normaly"

[@nuijawe5993]

No matter your teammates skill level, you can tell if they try to not hit you or if they don't care. I think teammates like that are either children, trolling or mentaly challanged.

[@OMGITzGriFFith]

Ohh man, this happens very often. Great video man

[@Fool0f4Took]

Thanks for the measured thoughts. I see this discussion as the visible tip of a very interesting iceberg-the topic of gaming cultures, what they are and how they form. The obvious: A game like DS3 can spark a lot of cultures. Some take shape online with viewers and content creators. Others happen in game, with players and the player base's innovators and technicians, and the developers (when they're interacting). The not-so-obvious: When an influencer like G9 chooses to kill a reckless noob, the choice impacts both levels. Some viewers will cheer because they're drawn to the culture of ruthless efficiency and commitment he represents. Other viewers might dislike or even unsub because they're drawn to the underdog, against-all-odds culture that he so effectively champions. For one part of the culture grown up around him and the game, the move will seem on brand. For another part it will feel completely off brand-maybe even like a betrayal (because they too still button mash and preload swings when the heat is on, all with good intentions). On the level of in-game culture, killing the noob reinforces a culture that tolerates no fools. Some players might approve, resonating with the move and emulating it. Others might see it as a missed opportunity to do something more interesting than sheer winning-that is, trying to win with the bad teammate, maybe even teaching them something along the way (yes, that's Souls sadomasochism at its finest). No judgement either way. What I think is interesting is that, with Elden Ring approaching, some influencers will actually get to impact the experience (and ultimately the longevity) of the whole shebang. So my crazy wish is that the top Souls influencers would do this thought experiment: What does the game look like if your way of playing, and your in-game judgements, becomes the meta? How would that affect online gameplay? How would that shape the player base? The point isn't to moralize or imagine any one player can bear that weight. The point of the experiment would simply be to spark reflection, to have players and content creators continue to evolve and grow stronger as culture-makers, in ways that lead to in-game excellence, but also to a robust and non-toxic culture.

[@iamamish]

I think I didn't make my points as clearly as I would have liked. I'm not defending 'killing noobs'. Mostly you should let noobs do their thing, and learn. However, I draw the line at repeatedly and without concern hitting their co-invaders. It's obvious that it is bad, and something you should avoid doing.

[@Fool0f4Took]

@@iamamish Oh, I wasn't trying to imply you were defending noob slaying ;) I thought you were clear and fair. I was just using the tension around the question as a springboard for raising a different but related conversation.

[@critical6798]

They'll kill me before we kill the target. Plus I don't want to 2v1 a host if that's the scenario

[@ORBrunner]

Well as much i love G9 invasions and level of skill, i hate his fans Nothing makes more bad fame for anything than a fans As for the actions of G - in that case he had he was reasonable If your co-invader adds even more danger for you, it is logical to get rid of potential threat

[@stockingsstuffer6302]

I acutely remember my first coinvasion, in ariendel near the millwood tower. Coinvader was taking on the host and his phantom 1v2 with a straight sword. At which point I ran up to his right side, proceeded to *try* to mindlessly trade with like, the kumo I think, but my coinvader beat the hell out of me with his backswing, which led me into getting blendered by all three of them. I remember getting pissed pretty well too, specifically that I thought that guy should've minded me more. Pfft. It stuck with me though, my first coinvasion lasting twenty seconds if. Mind your manners, coinvaders. If one guy has a situation handled, then sit around and look tough, keep the marks wrangled where your friend wants them, possibly be ready to trade out. Patience.

[@artey6671]

Well, I'd say it's pretty easy. If the fight is harder when you try not hitting your coinvader, you're free to attack them. Usually that's not the case because an additional enemy is worse than a useless ally, but there are exceptions for sure.

[@Kirokill1]

I’ve gave this a whole watch and I can’t get myself to see this in wider angle than invasions being taken too seriously. There’s no grand benefit to winning invasions. An ember, covenant item, self gratification. Just because the guy is new did some reversible mistakes and halted your win you have to shit on his parade isn’t nice. If anything it’s destructive and moving people away from pvp rather than embracing it. Your advice is sensible, correct, and non argue-able when you’re doing what you’re supposed to do. But they’re not forced to kill the host. The best memories are when stupid things happen.

[@xyloftalexander4369]

Anyone who takes winning so seriously they are willing to for go others good times are shitters. Idc if you are an invader or a ganker, same mentality

[@incius8341]

This upload is funny because I just had an invasion 2v2 really good co-invader against some tryhards. Excellent free aim from both of us I'm thinkin "ooh goodie this'll be a fun one,". We get another teammate. And then I hear a scream behind me. I turn around and to my horror my comrade has perished, at the hands of a traitorous fiend. Now I got 2 folks on Adderall and a crackhead breathing down my neck; I get plunged and the red finishes me. It's like bruh. Wasn't that bad tho since I had to go help my mom make homemade pizza anyway :D

[@thelonederanger1470]

If the co invader hits me more than the gang then he must die. If he is doing nothing he must die. Simple

[@hardwatergaming7965]

Lol aside from the blatant glitching, G9 was definitely justified killing the coinvader there

[@slooed5855]

I’ve come across a lot of the players that attack you, and I feel that it’s different from console to console. With PS and PC having a lot less “noob” coinvaders that don’t know what to do. I play on Xbox and a good 50/50 that the coinvader is either a person who knows that his job is to attack the host, but will still hit you because they don’t know how to dead angle or will just R1 spam and the other time is just a person who doesn’t know what to do.

[@Jopeymessmusic]

I have little to offer, it's funny that younger or newer players simply don't have the experience necessary to understand how much of a detriment they can be, sure play however you want but don't be surprised if you do nothing but hinder, you will be dealt with appropriately by experienced invaders. Honestly a lot of people have problems with mages but sacred bloom and GMB completely nullifies surprise CSS and most other magically inclined builds. Unless summoned, you should be in and out, onto the next world asap imo.

[@GhostRiposte]

Now I don't feel so bad for attacking a co-invader lol... he was a really good player, but half way through a chaotic invasion he just stood off to the side, now trying to be honorable or something because the numbers ended up a little off, probably was 2 v 3 or something. I did it tongue and cheek, like, hey dude, there's an invasion here, I don't think he thought it was funny 🤣

[@adamswing6115]

wow i mad respact jeebanana, jeesex best playur in da hole gaem dak soul 3 anyone who said otherwies is h8er TRAESH. is dere any doub that jeesex is da best player da whole game? no, jeesex jeebanana is mustard of the clamore tek. (tek mean switc to harp when lossing) wit dis bideo jeeballoon prov he da best playeur whole game ever made not just da daek sole 3 million subscribers edit: thank you for this likes kind strangers.

[@littlesneets8026]

haven't watched the full video yet, but i'll add my two cents. invasions generally are a dick-move, whether you wanted it or not. if you'd rather not deal with it, either use no ember, or play offline mode. otherwise, invasions are kinda just chaotic by nature, since you'll get all sorts of invaders: - the fair and nice guys who want an even match. - the good sports that can take a win and a loss with grace. - the twinks, who's motivation ranges from try-hard, to griefing, to simple "mini-boss for noobs" fun. - the sweats. people who refuse to take a loss with grace, will use every cheat, every meta, and be as disrespectfully obnoxious as possible. the epitome of "Try-Hard" in all its unfun glory - the berserk. literally, just attacks everything for any reason. either a noob, or a try-hard, or a guy looking for a challenge. - the adaptation. (ChaseTheBro type players) people who switch weapons, armour, rings and have so much strategy involved, probably the hardest kinds. the adaptation invader is focused on winning by any means, and they're often a combination of the other titles. so you've got all kinds of invasions who all wanna have some kind of fun playing against other players. now, if there's two or more invaders, generally speaking they might be inclined to co-op since invader generally have the same goal in mine: defeat the host. however, they're also not inclined to work together, if they're looking for a challenge, or chaos, or perhaps an extra estus. sometimes, it's just spite in itself. dick move? absolutely. but rather than complain about it, you can always "Git Gud". not because i'm dismissing the grievances of the experience of dealing with turds like that, but because invasions really are just pure chaos. you're not owed any honourable duel. you can have em, some hosts want to have fight clubs, but invasions in itself is nothing but chaotic. so always be prepared.

[@iamamish]

Sure invaders don't always have the most wholesome motivations, but then neither do dried fingered hosts. It's just a gameplay mechanic - if we called it 'asymmetric multiplayer' then nobody would complain, it's just that within the game lore, we call it an 'invasion'. It's not really an invasion in the sense that PVP is an unwanted interruption, it is baked into the gameplay experience. You might object that you don't care for them, but there are tons of gameplay mechanics I don't care for, but I would never call the players who use them 'dicks'. Sometimes they are, but as a general rule they are not - same as hosts.

[@Danny-pt6kz]

The fact you had to make this video sums it up

[@kamomohilda7954]

Well, sometimes because our co-invaders are not doing the right thing. I invaded a world with 1 red as an Aldrich, facing the Host and 2 whites. I successfully drew whites' attention to me so the red can 1v1 the host. But the red suddenly left the Host alone and engaged me, turned the battle into 3v1v1 or semi 4v1. In the end, both of us were ****ed. Annnnnd the red blamed me for not helping him handle the Host so the battle lasted for too long. What, do you think you have more advantages in 3v2 instead of 1v1? We can do damage to each other! We should attack different targets whenever possible to minimize friendly fire. [EDIT] Think again I might be too harsh to that poor red, he did many panic rolls and often forgot to make proper distance from the host gang, and spammed R1 when realizing he was in danger. The host gang left him alive as a fool and say "lol look how bad this noob invader is, he is chasing the wrong person! Invaders are eating each other!" He might be an actual newbie or simply lost his mind. But it still feels frustrating when things go down to a 4v1 against me, and I failed to tell the red what he shall do.

[@symbolicjohnson7]

It’s really annoying when purples use their covenant as an excuse to gank reds in dried finger world.

[@limitsatinfinity4393]

I haven't watched yet, but I feel this is going to be controversial.

[@Eternal-Seven]

No, not really.

[@limitsatinfinity4393]

@@Eternal-Seven your right. But it was controversial in G9's vid. Thats why amish made this video

[@peacemaker0_083]

Well i always killing my comrades in invasion even for no reasons

[@honkyjesuseternal]

*waits for amish to show footage of him killing coinvaders

[@iamamish]

In less sarcastic fashion, I don't do it very often at all. Somebody has to push me to the limits of my patience. I'm arguing that it isn't an unreasonable thing to do.

[@honkyjesuseternal]

@@iamamish Your hardon for Jeenine is telling. Even great players do wrong things. If a fellow red kills Jee for leaving to refill, he is right in that? You can't have things both ways. I am a fan of Jee, but you are a constant fanboy and you let that get in the way of reasoning. Cheers.

[@iamamish]

@@honkyjesuseternal I’ve repeatedly taken stances that are different from his. I do not reflexively defend anything he does. And who claimed to want to have things both ways?

[@honkyjesuseternal]

@oohanalligator Respect is earned, not given, not only in PVP but on KZbin. If Amish wants to punk out of what he hails, so be it. I enjoy his channel and will consistently watch his content. And then call him out when he acts fraudulent. He never kills coinvaders, but since Jee does it, he says it is worthy. So, if JeeNiNe makes a bad play with a Gundyr wakeup and hits a fellow red, the red can kill him and be a good invader?

[@bhuwin6186]

If a co-invader keeps hitting me I just step back and let the host/gank finish him off. Being mean to a noobie is not OK and not worth winning the invasion. At most attack them a few times to teach them a lesson. And to be fair that distraction the co-invader provided is literary the winning key point and not just a "one thing he did", few seconds of distraction is all it takes to turn the tables around.

[@UserOfTheZune]

Thank you, I agree. It's interesting that Iamamish focuses on things like a new players potential outlook on the game, yet he argued in another comment that killing a red gives the same message to them as directly messaging them about what the issue was, or even just a few hits or swings and a weapon waggle or something. Trying to communicate like that in a game that allows no voice chat for coinvaders or anything is very important. I love Iamamish's videos, and agree with a lot, but I disagree quite a lot with this videos topic.

[@sirgoogus4005]

"Dont be mean". The irony. Isnt it mean and inconsiderate to keep hitting your teammates? Yes, yes it is.

[@bhuwin6186]

@@sirgoogus4005 ever heard of the word intention?

[@thrice1201]

He was at least distraction which is why G9 did not kill him until he became a detriment (3x UGS swings into his back) right when the host was cornered.

[@bhuwin6186]

@@thrice1201 He almost killed the host and was doing fine on his own even before G9 stepped in at the end.

[@ULTRARARE035]

I invade in the swamps a lot and everytime a Watchdog enters the world to coinvade I just stop fighting until I'm sure he's not braindead and won't go for me. I had to teach a loooot of lessons sadly... it's like the official covenant for bad co-invaders. We all know that Aldriches sometimes doesn't understand the obj and attacks reds but I swear that with Watchdogs is a 50/50 chance that they think are Blues or something. Also what do you think about attacking the fight clubs? We all been there and done that, but when you INVADE one I just find it funnier to trigger an everyone vs me than to wait my turn, and rarely trust a "no heal" duel. Of course, if you're a dark spirit instead you shouldnt do that kind of behaviour and just enjoy your match like a gentleman.

[@lakimball]

If a fight club host gets invaded its because they're an idiot. You should host them without an ember. You can still get 5 reds in a world at Pontiff through red signs.

[@angryrose9505]

I understand why G9 had to put red down. Players like that can get you killed in a gank. I know this is going to sound awful, sometimes I will abandon a bad teammate and let the ganks kill them.

[@red_catharsis]

So good and so true! It’s like that one video I sent you a while back. Ringed city 3v2 and my co invader kept hitting me to the point where it almost seemed on purpose. I usually give them a few chances before retaliation. This guy got a few and I decided it was more worth it to kill him and take on the gank solo than to risk him hitting me at a bad time. So I did! And everything worked out in the end lol. But it is crazy how many people will just “accidentally” wail on you with an ultra and then you kill them and they message you all mad. I will say I’m very surprised that there was negativity towards that in the comments. I def thought killing other invaders was just a sad fact of life playing the game. No one wants to do it so we give them chances and then eventually weigh the odds.

[@geomad7555]

Another thing NEVER judge a book by its cover. I was invading in the ringed city vs a gank that would resummon and got blues after every kill I got this went on for about 15 mins when my coinvader died (rip good teamwork) and I could not directly engage with out a "good" coinvader and after around 5 more mins I got a coinvader he was in full fallen knight with grass crest and 1h claymore. Expecting him to be a terrible Play I immediately attacked him chasing him for a few seconds until suddenly he pivot bs me and lightning storm now making me the one running he spear hardswaps killing me and he threw dung on me witch I deserved. I lost the invasion even though I had a great coin because I jumped the gun and judge someone on what the were wearing.

[@liamchristian498]

Step 1: Grab the biggest ultra weapon you've got. Step 2: Mindlessly swing when both the co-invader and host are swinging at each other. Step 3: Proceed to kill everyone with your blender of doom. You get the win quickly and the co-invader gets a taste of their own medicine, without it looking 100% intentional. Now that's what I call a win-win.

[@Johnny13utt]

I have no problem killing other reds if they’re hindering more than helping. If anything, the estus canceling and fap spamming should be the lame shit

[@abookofmatches]

Not really on the topic of killing cos, more on the topic of mage coinvaders. Invader mages need to remember that they’re invaders first and mages second, you can’t just make a standard gank or pve mage and expect results, you need to be setup to deal with coinvasions and chase downs not solely focused on standing behind allies dealing damage. Two tools that mages should absolutely carry are farron dart and a crossbow, the dart being an absolute killer in chase down if specced right which won’t stagger or massively disrupt your co and the crossbow being a very controlled range option that won’t accidentally lock onto your co. Even with friendly fire a mage/melee team can be devastating, but both players need to be aware of what they’re doing. Mages obviously shouldn’t be spamming big spells that aren’t going to hit or using things like soulsmass or that fire turret one which can’t be controlled. But equally the melee co needs to be aware of their mage. If you’re constantly standing between the mage and the gank then they can’t do anything but hit you or be useless. If they split up into multiple fights and you see them casting HSM don’t interrupt them or try and gank their target, let them have space to use their big spells when possible. The best setup for a standard 4v2 is one invader on each side of the gank pinning them in but with a mage/melee setup the best configuration is generally both invaders on the same side but spaced parallel where the melee pulls back at pressure but doesn’t cross the mage’s firing line. Red casters can be absolutely devastating, able to one shot 802 unscaled kind of devastating, but it takes both players to be aware of that for it to work.

[@iamamish]

Somebody should make a video about that

[@bebopgaming7254]

"Daddy Dark Souls" = iamamish Somebody's got to do it. Haha... Catch you in DS4 Daddy ... Haha...

[@ZeroTheHeroGOAT]

On stream, right now as I type this. Jennine bowglitching, estus refilling and killing a rather clueless teammate because he was boyishly upset because he died "to cheaters" as he said. But he was using cheats himself. What is the excuse? "They started it"? Kindergarden tactics? OMEGALUL

[@maxmazza2987]

Really dislike Jee for this reason. He's definitely a technical and skilled player and even without using cheats would very likely have killed me more than the other way around when I was at my best before being driven out of DS3 by the current "cheater's meta." That being said he's not only one of the primary reasons WHY the current meta is the way it is, he's also an INCREDIBLY poor sport who regularly cheats first when losing, complains when others use the same "tech" he himself helped to popularize (especially when he already did so himself in the same invasion), and is kind of toxic in general. Pretty much any stream of his I've watched shows all of the above, and it doesn't take long. Bet cash he's killed coinvaders just for refusing to Estus cancel.

[@ZeroTheHeroGOAT]

@@maxmazza2987 I honestly think Jeenine sounds like a really likeable fellow. He also drops sound wisdom to his viewers very often. So there must be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on when thing I mentioned happened. I have nothing against JeeNine at all, I don't know the guy. I do think Iamamish needs to reconsider his fanboyism a tiny bit tho because I've seen this behavior from JeeNine consistenclt during two streams this week. Cheats, glitches and co-invader killing doesn't seem to be a one-off occasion. It seems to be ingrained in the everyday DS3 gameplay for him and his followers.

[@THELEGEND-wc2xr]

its actually called RAGING RAT TECH it automatically activates when his hit by other reds or the co invader just hurt his ego 😂🥱😴

[@Abstru5e.]

why would you not kill someone hitting you over and over? at that point they're as bad as the enemy.

[@UserOfTheZune]

If you're getting hit over and over, why haven't you adjusted your playstyle to adjust for that? Aren't reds really good at adjusting to the unknown in invasions?

[@Abstru5e.]

@@UserOfTheZune You want us to adjust to THEIR mistakes instead of them adjusting to their own? No.

[@Varlerie]

@@UserOfTheZune The adjustment reds make is eliminating the source of those hits. If your "ally" is more of a detriment than a help, the logical choice is to get rid of them.

[@UserOfTheZune]

@@Abstru5e. here's the issue there, with a game that has no ability to communicate with our co invaders, I can't coordinate attacks. Ever hosted with a friend in voice chat? Heck of a lot easier to set up plans for the fight that way. "Hey, run over here, I'll go for a plunge!" "Ooh, I need to heal, help me out!" Well, since I can't strategize, and there's a chance this person doesn't have as solid a grasp on the mechanics and tactics involved in an invasion, then yes, I would say that if you're getting hit by a co invader, more than once, yes, it's on you to change your tactics. Why have you gotten hit by him more than once, once you know what to expect? Use the skill as an invader you've learned to adapt to a situation to instead back up a potential ally, rather than fight them. Also, as an invader, if I take the time to kill the co invader, what happens if the host and phantom(s) join in and blender you both? What if the blue that just got summoned jumps in unexpectedly, seeing two distracted reds? What if you lose 2 or three estus, or more, killing them? What if, against all odds, they win the fight? Was it worth it in these cases, rather than stepping back and attacking as a backup if they need to heal or something? I'd say no.

[@UserOfTheZune]

@@Varlerie As I say, if you're getting caught by them more than like once or twice, it's really your fault. Yes, they're making poor choices in attacking when it may not be ideal for them to attack. But what have you been doing? If you both swing at a host, then aren't you two both making the same choice? Running attacks are a bit wild, they catch people, but if you know the co invader is gonna wildly swing once they're done healing, regardless of where you are at the time, then make sure you're not in running attack range of the host, or roll the inevitable attack. I dunno, I get it from your side too. I just think that people can change their own gameplay much more easily and consistently than they're going to change someone else's, without talking to them.

[@Leyero_editor]

yeah

[@koichibanner]

as another invader, i tend to attack any invader/phantom/host i come across with some exceptions; often beginning with the blues, the invaders, the phantoms and then the host, for the sake of killing as much as possible - most importantly, on a whim often people disdain this kind of activity and invalidate those who kill unprovoked; to me, it's adrenaline rushing trying to mow down as many people as I can with whatever weapon i have at the time (and sometimes dying/winning in the process), this game is about killing people, after all more often then not i get people black crystalling out/doing the obnoxious dodge-clap thing/sending me hatemail (the lattermost ones i just respond with Secular Intercourse) and i really don't care. people seem to have a really warped sense of morals in this game as opposed to others , which annoys me because it isn't casual, dirt-cheap toxcity as much as it's people's ego's getting all constrewn and raw because someone played in a different way to you just wanted to put this out there as another perspective because people getting upstart about a "Moral code" in video games is kinda silly

[@MissionCreep.]

I’ve killed a watchdog as a red before and got hate mail. Don’t care it’s dark souls . You die a lot even these yt highlight channels . Yeah they die a lot too. My problem is the lvl 24 password summoning over lvl phantoms with vestiges and split leafs in Havel armor yanking me. When I’m looking for honest build pvp.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

ok, but no friendly fire with coinvaders would fix this issue

[@Gnomleif]

Aaand there goes the fight clubs.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

@@Gnomleif "coinvaders" red summons would have friendly fire

[@Gnomleif]

@@coldhardjayard5424 I've invaded more fight clubs than I can be arsed to count, and some of my best moment in DS3 have come from impromptu fight clubs, so while hitting your co-invader can suck I wholeheartedly disagree. It would remove an element of spontaneity that's a part of why this is by far the game I've spent the most time on.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

@@Gnomleif nah you could just join a fc by putting your red sign down. Invaders can be annoying to fight club hosts. Good fight club hosts will host unembered to avoid getting invaders. Especially private fight clubs. If you don't like this small thing, you can always just play a previous game in the series. I'd rather from soft keep taking risks than make the same game again cuz there will always be the game that came before. Why not try something new like they're known for. That's just my feelings about the direction from soft could take as a whole tho The reason I think invading fight clubs isn't an issue is because one, red summons in this hypothetical would be one type, host/phantom would be another type, invader would be another type and maybe another covenant can have a separate type as well, so each of these will have friendly fire to eachother. Think of it this way, if in ds3 you can only invade as an aldrich. You'd still hit the red phantoms because they're not an aldrich, but if another aldrich is in the world, yeah you can't hit them cry about it. That's not much of a bad thing imo. It's actually something that happened to me one time. I was invaded by 2 aldriches and they both wanted to duel this red I summoned. I let one of them fight then the other aldrich kinda just stared at me. I was like "nah go fight", and they began to swing wildly at eachother not hitting because obviously, no friendly fire. I felt so stupid at that point I just killed myself lmao. Anyway, I don't think it's much of an issue🤷

[@FyterianTV]

Can we please stop pretending that DS3 is populated by n00bs? (p.s. this isn't directed at iamamish)

[@alka6432]

Don’t care what anybody says or feels I’m playing how I wanna play

[@dustinmcclung4497]

This is still plenty relevant today, in ER. More often than not ill find myself outnumbered and outgunned, and rely on the concealing veil talisman to wait until another red shows. Sometimes though, ill have reds who see me being sneaky and outright decide im a target. It never goes well for them, but its frustrating to deal with these idiots. There was a quote... Fear not a competent enemy, but an incompetent ally.. Or something like that.

[@GodfreyEnjoyer1]

Hell nah. I also watch some G9 videos but I am not a fanboy. Killing co-invader depends on the context. Imagine a co-invader who is just an asshole and wants to attack you and piss you off just for the sake of annoying you. Well, then it is totally justified. But what about people who are new to the series or try to become better? every one of us started at one point, so there is no reason to kill "noobs" for being bad. Damn, I got plenty of those noobs but I never killed them. The excuse of free estus is also bs since almost every hardcore invader and ganker does abuse the estus glitch and also the glitch to gain back estus. To sum up: Play how you like, this is just my point of view. In the end, there are no rules. But I can't be the only one who thinks this kind of action is morally speaking bullshit. Killing a m8 for being bad gosh people are dramatic. This game ain't even an esports competitive game.

[@iamamish]

Nobody is suggesting we kill players for being 'new'.

[@FinanceWizardry955]

You are not alone. I agree to 100% with what you said.

[@im_cart8656]

This is a great video that hasnt been touched on properly. I get more messages from bad players at pontiff and "I'll just watch" types I kill then ppl I've invaded.. Aldrich's hust swinging wildly... me going through a hell of a gank and super low on healing and an Aldrich pops up and just watches... and I'm like kill the fucking dude... very very early on I would watch too until I realized just because it's a 1v1 now.. doesnt mean it was earlier and almost certainly not if 2 reds are there. If ur a red I expect u to help me to kill the host.. aldriches/watchdogs.. just try ur best and dont hit me.. swing when u feel ur not going to hit your teammate.. u guys act like blues sometimes just playing braindead.. if there are 2 or more gankers left.. then divide and conquer.. and dont just run at me with your 1 handed exile.. maybe pull out a spear/halberd type... or just hold some aggro so ur teammate can get a kill

[@im_cart8656]

Also huge point made by amish here.. ANY time I see someone unlock to avoid hitting me even if they could of hit the host/phantom I always note that. I also note players that take their turn.. if one guy is putting mad pressure on some one.. alot of times you dont even need to atk.. just stay near the host so they cant heal maybe swing here and there and let your coinavder finish the job if he is getting the job done already

[@im_cart8656]

And lastly if u make a huge mistake and fuck up ur co invader do a quick prostrate gesture.. but if ur fast enough to do that and stay in the fight.. u prob dont need to read this

[@javax6]

oh man I missed the discussion on that vid. That one guy calling your clearly sarcastic comment as ironic is just so funny. I do not understand the visceral reaction many seemed to have as if Jee was unreasonable in his commentary or actions. Very sensitive people overreacting. Jee is always reasonable imo.

[@thunderstrucktb4758]

A million times yes to covenant invaders not teaming up correctly, drives me nuts. Also I'm surprised you didn't mention the obscuring ring/great bow invaders that do absolutely nothing but take up an invasion slot. I kill them all the time.

[@frvi3502]

Good there are no coinvaders in Elden ring ahahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahah

[@MultiDraco999]

I feel like people can do whatever they want because it's a video game, if you want to kill your coinvader you can. It's not even toxic it's just an option. People don't know how to watch someone even if you disagree with them, I legit disagree with like half of Jee's takes but still watch all his vids

[@iamamish]

100%. Jee and I don’t agree about everything but we are still friends and I enjoy his content.

[@Nameless_Knightt]

So just because invader doesn't tag team and you use a not thrusting weapon you deserve to be killed?