DS PrimaTek Scandal - "Genuine" Minerals or Imitation of Them?!

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Hi Everyone, a rather heated watercolour brand scandal occurred few weeks ago and I wanted to share my thoughts on that as a content creator but also as a consumer! :)
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[@marianweaver6038]

Artists who sell their work are entitled to know what pigments are in these paints so they can decide whether or not to use them for lightfast reasons. The price DEFINITELY needs to come down to normal ranges.

[@lilitincher4973]

Schminke has some pretty hefty pricing also, as well as Hoilbein. I don't believe they will lower the prices for the PrimaTek. You will either buy them or not. I love DS, their paints are beautiful, there are no other like them, similar but not quite the same.

[@marianweaver6038]

@@lilitincher4973 I do love their paints and they are 95% of my palette but I don’t like deceit or deliberately charging premium prices for a mislabeled product. I will continue to buy and use their paint but not the Primatek.

[@LanaGoesArt]

@@lilitincher4973 The price depends on where you live. For me Schmincke is half the price of DS and they're more consistent in their quality of paints and also have good labeling. But for US DS is more affordable, or M. Graham etc. In the end it's always what an artist likes their paints to be and what is obtainable to them. Holbein is very affordable in Asia etc. But the price of PrimaTeks in comparison to other DS tubes with same pigments (as mentioned in the video with the Phthalo green) well, then PrimaTeks are overpriced.

[@dewisalim3320]

@@LanaGoesArt I second this. Holbein is very affordable in Indonesia, Singapore, etc.

[@beckbabej]

Knowing the pigments is important for more reasons than light fastness. It's needed to properly mix colors, to decide if the paint is worth it's price, and to be able to know if you are buying something you already have. Any watercolor paint that doesn't include pigment information is not artist grade.

[@The_saltysalmon]

My main problem is them not disclosing the real pigments that are inside. The people that buy the genuine range are not students and most of the time are being used in commission work. Not disclosing which pigments there are inside is the same as DS expecting blind fate from their consumers about ATSM ratings 😪

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Very good point! I was just thinking the same, one starts doubting a lot of things... 🧡

[@renmuffett]

Winser & Newton wont disclose the pigments used in their cad hue line. I wont buy those either. But the mineral pigments used in the DS Primatek's are genuine. But they fail to let anyone know that there is more in that mix. Not just those stones. I knew it from the get go because I bought the originals that were genuine before Daniel Smith himself sold the company. After that sale, the Primateks suddenly became brighter, more saturated and captivating. I thought to myself back then, the new owner tweeked the formula! It was obvious to me.

[@liliax9147]

I’m curious, will you be revealing the pigments in your watercolors to those who ask now?

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

@@liliax9147 as I said in the video, no I will not, as a small business I will of course share the lightfast information of the pigments used. Also I will start adding toxicity info. I don’t work with toxic pigments. Someone made a good point in the comments that this scandal opens a lot of questions, like they could be putting toxic pigments in there and you wouldn’t even know. 🧡

[@LanaGoesArt]

@@renmuffett Schmincke had no pigment number for ther Cobalt Violet Hue for a long time, because it was a new pigment and had no number yet (now it has). But yeah... I'm not buying the Cadmium Hues until I know what's in there. I like your point about the Primateks. I also wondered how they can have such a huge range of natural mineral paints available. Doesn't seem ressourceful to me. What bothers me about those the most is, that they don't even put lightfast pigments in some of the mixes to enhance them and some colours just fade weirdly. :S

[@NatashaNewtonArt]

Thanks for covering this, Alyona. I can say that as a professional artist buying artist grade watercolours (that are expensive!), I want to know EXACTLY which pigments are in each tube of paint. The reason for this is that I can then make an informed decision before I purchase, including doing my own research into how lightfast the pigments are - which is very important to me as I sell my original work. I am already tired of spending my hard earned money on DS paints rated as excellent for lightfastness only to find out from others that they aren't (Prussian Green, Moonglow, Mayan Blue, Mayan Dark Blue, Rhodonite, and possibly Amethyst and Jadeite too) and then having to perform my own lightfastness tests because DS can't be trusted to be honest about the lightfastness of their paints. And now we find out that the mineral paints we paid £18 per tube for possibly (probably, almost certainly) don't contain what we thought they contained. I started my recent journey into watercolour promising myself that I would buy only lightfast, high quality paints (despite the cost) and I feel hugely let down by DS. I absolutely LOVE some of their colours and for now I will continue to use what I have, but as for the future I don't know what I'll do. I wish they'd responded to this in a better way. SIGH.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

I totally agree! I sat in my studio today looking at my DS palette and not wanting to use it.. I pulled out my Schmincke instead knowing that you might not get those exciting and unique colours but at least you know exactly what you get in the tubes! 🧡

[@NatashaNewtonArt]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations I do love Schmincke watercolours - I have a few in my collection now! But I know exactly what you mean; DS does make so many interesting/unique colours. x

[@mydogeatspuke]

There is no such thing as an original colour. Nobody "copied" Daniel Smith. With all the creativity in the art world, there is no way that nobody had ever mixed 3 colours before. The "copy" you mention isn't even that similar, it leans far more pink and green than blue, and it also isn't the only one. There are loads of pigments that behave in the same way and Daniel Smith has no more of a claim to those either. As for the rest, an artist should be given full and accurate pigment information for the paint they're purchasing, especially at this price point. That's why you pay a premium, for the quality of the ingredients. Trying to keep a "recipe" to yourself so that nobody will copy it as a production company stops it being about art and changes the subject to greed, and makes some people believe that anyone has any claim to naturally occurring pigments and how they behave when mixed. Ludicrous idea.

[@LeeAngold]

Roman Szmal's Pryszbysz Grey uses different pigments than Moonglow (PG26 rather than PG19, and he is reformulating it to exclude PR177 as well), so I really dont think this makes the best case for why a company should be able to hide their pigments in order to protect from "copying". If anything it is an example of how a similar colour can be achieved many different ways. Alas, I dont think Daniel Smith can claim to have invented dusky granulating purples- at best they popularized the readymade form of them. In general, I feel like if your "secret recipe" is readily reverse-engineered from a list of common ingredients, it wasnt all that groundbreaking to begin with. Which is not to say it isnt lovely paint worth buying, but I dont buy paint for the secret recipe, I buy paint to suit my needs as artist. The example I thought of is smoothie bars- if knowing that my smoothie is made with plain yogurt, banana, strawberries and raspberries "ruins" the "secret recipe"...well, that wasnt much of a secret recipe to begin with. That doesnt mean I wont buy smoothies just because I own a blender and fruit, I buy smoothies because sometimes I want a tasty smoothie on the go. Likewise, a different smoothie shop will likely have a lot of overlapping flavors including some uncommon/trendy ones like matcha or acai. Like most customers, I will choose the smoothie shop that has the liquid consistency I like best, or has a non-dairy base, or is closest to where I run my errands or other reasons, not because only one shop has the secret bananaberry patent. I definitely will not buy from any smoothie shop or paint company who refuses to list ingredients. What if I have an allergy or dietary restriction? Lightfastness or ethical concerns? Some pigments (ie PB27) react with minerals in the water, and may perform differently depending on what the local water contains. Some others like malachite may react with certain binders. It's important for me to make informed decisions.

[@CATAZTR0PHE]

Oh, good to know! I was always wondering why they used prone-to-fading PR177 when there are so many other interesting reds there. Red is not dominating in this mixture, so many other reds would do the trick too.

[@CobraDove1111]

Same

[@amvisions1]

Same, no pigment numbers means I would never buy. Part of mastering the paintingprocess is understanding what is in your paint and how they will react with other paint.

[@glorioskiola]

It is absolutely necessary for DS to disclose on the packaging, exactly what pigments go into their paints. We artists normally won’t even buy paints that don’t contain the pigment information. Giving that info does not give away any proprietary formula, as the proportions, and the treatment of each pigment (heating, how finely ground) obviously will not be disclosed. No excuse not to list the pigments, ever. (And I also don’t feel there is anything wrong with another paint company duplicating a mix such as moonglow or whatever.)

[@beckbabej]

Roman Smalz can make any mixture they want. Daniel smith doesn't own the mixture that makes moonglow, even if they sold it first. I'm sure there is someone out there using this mixture before Daniel Smith marketed it.

[@waymire01]

Just like Jane's Grey.. burnt sienna and ultramarine blue mix has been a staple of artists forever. They just put a name on it and put it on the market.

[@libbyandbrianbundrick3270]

Prb. Grey doesn't even have the same mixture of pigments. I have both, and they are really different. Da Vinci's Artemis on the other hand, is really similar to Moonglow. Nothing new under the sun, as they say...

[@Cheripie506]

I agree!

[@WhstlblwrBlastingEpsteinsILK]

Agreed

[@arielle2745]

As someone with a bit of background in geology and mineralogy , I never bought the Primatek because I was very skeptical about these watercolors. I couldn’t imagine how the company could possibly make them cost effective even at their high price tag. I wanted to wait and see if the formulas proved stable before I spent my money on them. Secondly, if DS was producing such colors at such a cost, I thought it likely that DS might be buying the minerals from strip-mined areas to be able to afford making them. And I didn’t want to risk participating in such a supply chain. Regarding copying, all factory watercolor companies have to stay competitive by offering what their customers want, including DS. I used to buy art supplies decades ago when DS owned a retail art supply store in Seattle. All those years we all knew he was doing the research on art materials to compete with Windsor Newton, Schmincke, etc. Finally, DS Moonglow is apparently not lightfast. I mix my own for my own use that is.

[@LunaBianca1805]

I'm pretty sure a good bunch of the minerals wouldn't even look the same as the stones/crystals themselves as the atomicsl structure plays a part in that part, too, so I'd understand if they'd have to mix additional pigments in. But I'm totally with you on the marketing aspect. Calling them "genuine", kinda lying to customers and bumping up the prices as much as DS seemed to have, really is a bit of a dick move...

[@renmuffett]

The original founder of Daniel Smith paints, Daniel Smith himself wouldn't have deceived anyone. I have the original Primateks he started and they are totally different from the ones after the new owner took over. The original much weaker and less saturated in hue and down right gummy and hard as can be. The new owner tweeked them because the sales were not that good. Its totally obvious because the colors and textures from the old and now do not match at all. I have both.

[@dannychen1064]

you can really see from Daniel Smith's post that they are pissed! and they have no intention to explain honestly or apologetically to artists and customers. This poor PR just leaves a bad taste. I think it's because, if they agree with what the analyst's view, then they have no reason anymore to sell these at such high prices when their selling point is exactly the uniqueness and rarity of the mineral. I think Daniel Smith's regular paints are truly great and will continue using them, but their reputation as a brand just went down to a new low.

[@chedoodles]

I was actually really interested to buy these set but cannot justify how expensive it is. Having known this scandal, just makes me wanna turn away from DS. The response they have is just so passive aggresive.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

As time is passing and new information comes through, I noticed I pulled out my trustworthy Schmincke palette and giving the side eye to my beloved DS palette... 😅🧡

[@eyemakeuplooks]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations agreed. Of late, I am enjoying the consistency of schminke as well

[@joannaplichta9677]

I will protest here on the behalf of Roman Szmal. Przybysz's Grey is not an exact copy of Moonglow, the green pigment is different. The idea of making a grey out of green and purple cannot seriously be claimed by Daniel Smith to be their novel and unique idea - that's what the watercolorists have been doing for ages.

[@tessa6307]

So a part of me is relieved that these aren’t what they say they are, as I’m generally concerned about the mining practices of these minerals. Also I’m totally unsurprised by the revelation. Daniel Smith highly romanticizes their paints, even the most basic. They are master marketers. Honestly this whole ordeal probably has swayed me away from being a return customer. I never felt like a particularly loyal customer anyhow, and there are plenty of other brands that I have more respect for.

[@lharbour2854]

I like some of the Primateks, but I agree with you that mining practices are abhorrent for quite a few of them and some, like the purpurite and lapis are almost impossible to find in recent years, which made me extremely skeptical of the quantity, if any, of the real stones in them. Most of the lapis sold today is actually sodalite and the genuine lapis that is sold is almost all from Afghanistan and I won't even start on how unethical it is to purchase it.

[@jennw6809]

The scientist actually found tiny traces of the minerals in the paints she looked at, it's just that were a LOT more pigment molecules than mineral molecules. There are many Moonglow lookalikes actually, as Kimberly Crick has pointed out on her channel.

[@piperspurpose3005]

Alyona, as a long-time subscriber, I have been immeasurably inspired by your work and your approach toward all things artistic, and I will continue to be inspired by the art you share with the world. I also have purchased your watercolor sets and I and will continue to enjoy them because they are high-quality and beautiful. But I am discouraged by your response to this issue. If full disclosure about pigment information in the paints you buy is important to you, then full disclosure about the pigments in the paints you sell should also be important (if not MORE important). By not disclosing your pigments, you are doing the very same thing everyone on this thread has accused DS of. I personally don’t care that much about pigment information; however, I think you have a terrific opportunity to do something Daniel Smith won’t, which is to take the high road and show respect for the pigment-disclosure debate by being forthright and honest about all the ingredients in your products. I highly doubt you will lose any measurable amount of sales due to people copying, and in fact, you might gain much more than you would have ever lost.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Thank you for putting it so respectfully! I really appreciate that. Honestly in the last few days I feel torn about it. This video has opened a very interest discussion and the more I think about it the more I am starting to reconsider keeping the pigments a “secret”. I work with beautiful and high quality pigments, don’t use any fillers, it’s all about letting the pigments interact with each other - so I have nothing to hide. Also many artist said the same that they would buy handmade watercolour only if they knew the exact pigments, so I would love artists to use my paints as they are artists grade. Anyway I definitely need to digest all of information and opinions and come to perhaps a new decision. Thank you again! 🧡

[@piperspurpose3005]

You're most welcome. I meant well with my comments, and I'm glad they were helpful to you. I really admire you and all the work you have done over the years to grow your channel, and to grow as a businesswoman. You inspire me, and I'm thrilled to be part of the art community you have created. 🥰🥰

[@amvisions1]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations I also do not understand your fear. With disclosing your pigments you do not disclose your recipe. I can take the exact pigments you are using and still create a different paint. I might have an other binder, a different basic ingredient or even the way you mull a paint makes a difference as you surely know. I think paintmakes all have their own basic recipe and I agree with you that I would not give that away to someone else. It took a long time to finetune and I have a firm believe every paintmaker takes time to find their process. But giving the pigment numbers is something that you really should consider.

[@SUSSDUE]

I agree-I think you will win more goodwill and more buyers by giving the pigment information. I doubt anyone can truly copy a paint mix fully by mixing just the pigments given in a ” recipe”, there are so many other factors that combines to make a precise shade of paint. I didn’t buy the Schminche granulating colours in the beginning but tried to mix them myself from the pigment information Schmincke gave, but even if I used Schminckes own one pigment colours to make the mixes hardly anyone of them looked like the ready made granulation colours, just sometimes a bit close and sometimes very different. So even if you ” gave away” the pigment content in your watercolours I hardly think anyone can make an exact reproduction of them, and honestly most artists would not even bother to make their own colours but be very happy to know they got handmade artist grade lightfast paint mixes to paint with. You do as you want of course, but I just think it would in the end serve your buissness better. Good luck!

[@cate7777]

I know this, when you take an amethyst crystal and rub it against another hard material it will leave a white streak rather than a purple one. And a gem that is deeply violet will do the same, not that you would waste valuable material doing that, nor would you grind it into dust either. Zoisite, the mineral where Tanzanite comes from is a yellow to ultramarine blue color-heated most of time to get the blue shade, but otherwise, it can be a muddy yellow color, and if I am not mistaken, it's streak is also white. It is a single source gem that comes from Tanzania; the mines where it comes from are almost if not already mined out. In other words it is a finite resource and would anyone be grinding this material up to make paint? I am not sure, but lean towards maybe not. I forgot there is on other form of zoisite, called Thulite, but it is a pink and opaque gem stone. None of these are almost black like the paint. Another that comes to mind, Sleeping Beauty turquoise. The mine, where this material comes from is mined out and closed which means no one is getting new material. People who have any left, are hoarding it, because they know the longer they hold out the more valuable it will become as supplies dry up. I can see maybe powder gem cutters leave behind, may be used for making paint, but the point is where would you get it? I love gems and it's something I research on my own, so when I started paying attention to the PrimaTek line I had some thoughts like maybe but also maybe not. How can the Amethyst Gen. be that intensely purple when the streak it's gem's name sake leaves behind is white? I didn't read what the Instagram poster wrote, so I can't comment on what they said. I don't know if they determined there were no natural pigments in them or if there were some. I just don't know. I am torn somewhat, because I am new to Daniel Smith, having taken up watercolors recently. I have only now started collecting some of his watercolors just before this hit the headlines, as it were. I really like some of his paints and also some of his PrimaTek ones. I think now it 's a matter of buyer beware and know that when you buy some of these you might not be getting what you think you're getting. I edited my comment today 5/27/21 with additional thoughts.

[@mattmcdonald7112]

The moonglow pigments are different from the "copy" and you can't patent the pigments anyway. Shame about the controversy, buy paints you like, but charging premium for doctored colours is a bit of foul play

[@natlisan]

I have purchased several tubes of the prima tek colours myself. Even though technically if they contain any of that mineral they are "Genuine". It's not great practice to deceive your customer's by omission!!! When you use the word "Genuine" it's VERY misleading because the assumption is that it's 100% that pigment/mineral. The only way to maintain their reputation would be to at least list the percentage of the genuine minerals contained in each mix as well as the other pigments that might be in the mix to achieve that colour. They don't have to be precise with the amount of the "other" pigments but they do need to be honest and more transparent with us!

[@LanaGoesArt]

Interesting video. Thanks! Indeed the drama comes at a bad time for you being in the middle of this series and I'm just as disappointed by the bad labeling practices in DS paints. As for your own paints, as an artist, who loves to buy handmade paints, the non disclosure of pigments used is a reason not to buy them. Everyone, probably including yourself, wants to know what is in their paints. Are they lightfast? Are they toxic? How will they behave? etc.

[@CherylGormanAuthor]

As with other Daniel Smith watercolors, which are beautiful and I love them, the pigments should be listed. They also put the vehicle, which is gum arabic solution. Standard for watercolors. Why can't they list them on their Prima Tek colors? When you purchase a professional product you should know the ingredients. It's only fair. My .02 cents.

[@coloredcarol8074]

I'd rather have information of pigments in the paints I get, but for me the biggest issue is pricing. Not only the high price is now unjustified, but also some of the colours are only available in bigger tubes, forcing you to pay an even higher price. I've always been a fan of schmincke and sennelier, and you can get twice as much paint from them for the same you pay for Daniel Smith. I also really like Roman Szmal paints and have no problem with their colours, I inclusively have the gray you mentioned instead of moonglow. I believe if people like a mix and rather have it conveniently prepared for them, disclosing pigments won't damage your sales. See Super Granulating sets from Schmincke. I haven't bought it, I opted instead to buy all the single pigment tubes and play around with mixes myself, but I got them from shmincke anyways so they still got my money 😉 But I see they are very popular so, there's something for everyone. With so many handmade paints on the market and European manufactures like the ones I mentioned making very nice paints, I don't see why to keep supporting an American brand, more so after the condescending explanation. For all I care I can buy all Roman Szmal versions of their colours, at least we know what's in them and the price is fair.

[@waymire01]

Just be aware the Roman Szmal P. Grey is fugitive too.. they use the same red that fades in moonglow. Their shadow violet is a safer bet.

[@nanounou]

Wonder what else has DS been lying about. Trust is hard to come by. Once lost may be lost forever.

[@benspeeds]

Winsor Newton refuses to list pigments in their cadmium free "cadmiums" as well. I think it rubs painters the wrong way to withhold pigment info but it's obviously something that goes on regularly in the paint manufacturing world.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Oh I wasn’t aware of that! Tfs.

[@benspeeds]

Not listing the pigments in a professional quality paint should be frowned upon in my opinion. My initial comment was just to give an example of another major manufacturer engaging in the same shady behavior.

[@waymire01]

Honestly I'd rather they not list them then flat out lie about it. At least we know what we are in for and can choose to make an informed decision whether or not to buy. I won't buy those WN colors either just for the record.. I want to know what I'm using, if I didn't care I would be paying a lot less for paint. DS is straight up stealing from their customers.

[@lisaleone2296]

My perspective is this: If you like the color and formulation, at that price, what difference does it make whether it's made entirely from a semi-precious stone or has other pigments and fillers mixed in to improve color/consistency? Most people purchased these paints because they liked the colors. Some people bought them in spite of thinking crushing up semi-precious stone was a waste of the semi-precious stone. For me, Sleeping Beauty Turquoise could have exactly zero actual turquoise rock in it and I would still keep buying it, because it's that stunning of a color and I use it all the time. Similarly you will have to pry Sugilite out of my cold dead hands. But Lapis Lazuli is something I would never buy, not because of the price, not because of what it is or isn't made of, but because it's really weak and difficult to work with. Do I think DS should re-name/re-market the line? Not necessarily. I've never seen anything that says they are "100% [whatever stone]", and I always suspected there were other things in them to keep the color and performance consistent. The word "genuine" is like the word "natural" - it could mean a lot of things. And it's not a synonym for "pure". Since DS provides lightfast ratings, I don't even need them to tell me what other pigments may be in the mix. To me this "scandal" is not a big deal. I know other people will have differing opinions.

[@rebeccapage4411]

I like Bloodstone and Green Apatite a LOT. I will continue to pay extra for those because of the consistency, color, and performance. Is "genuine" misleading? Absolutely! The head of the company is a skeez for choosing that word in conjunction with an actual stone name.

[@renmuffett]

Actually the gems that are in the paint IS 100% Genuine. Its just not much of it in the tube anymore because the new owner tweeked the formula. The originals really were just gemstones and that's why the old originals were so bland, gummy, hard as a rock and lifeless. I know, I have both the old and the newer ones. Not the same formula at all. It was to me abvious that the paint was tweeked.

[@jenniefrench1338]

I did too. But DS own Material data information says that the bloodstone genuine is very hazardous to aquatic life. Something to think about anyways.

[@CobraDove1111]

Look up what legal Double Speak is....you will become clear on skeezy commerce practices and how greedy evil corporations LEGALLY get around scamming customers

[@ikerluz2220]

I am cool with roman szmal to kind of copy (I believe they're not exactly the same in most cases) some daniel smith colors, because here in Spain with "artemiranda it is much easier and far less expensive. They are lovely, and I don't think it's fair to "own" a pigment or a conbination of them because you used them first. Imagine they did that with ultramarine, everyone would freak out!

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Well personally I am not aware of any other brand creating this specific Moonglow colour before DS smith did. So hence why it’s a copy in my opinion. Roman Szmal changed up one out of the three pigments and although the colour is not identical for that reason it’s a very close copy, again in my opinion. :) As for Ultramarine, it’s a single pigment with some varieties of granulation and also the addition of phthalo blue in some case. The same way as Lemon Yellow, Burnt Sienna they all are common single pigments. Therefore they are incomparable to specific multiple pigment mixes like Moonglow. :)

[@JoAnneMOwens]

While the colors ARE amazing, in my opinion, they have taken advantage of all of us, which is shocking to me. I will be interested to find out just how deep this problem runs within the line... I have been eager to add to my collection, but now I will not buy them, until claims of Genuine are removed, and the prices drop considerably. Daniel Smith needs to do some major damage control, let’s hope they do!

[@benspeeds]

American journey literally has moonglow in their watercolor paint line. I think it's nice to have options just like every manufacturer produces umbers or ultramarines. The only problem I've ever had with moonglow is that the antraquinoid red in it is fugitive.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Ultramarine is one of the classic pigments, so yes it is present in many palettes and is a must have like many other colours across all brands. So really it is not in the same category with Moonglow - which is a very specific mix, and although it can be achieved by substituting couple of pigments I have never come across this colour before I discovered DS watercolours.

[@CobraDove1111]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations You are self admittedly new to watercolour art and mixing, so you think DS somehow created Moonglow mix. They didn't.

[@OhJodi69]

DS could have patented the formula for "Moonglow" but chose not to. I don't think it's the responsibility of other paint companies to protect DS's popular color, if DS didn't do so, itself.

[@davejohnson5365]

The pigments are listed on the tube, ds has no patent over the pigments... anyone can take the three pigments and play with the recipe until they create something similar. Calling it moonglow would be out of line, but szmal didn’t do that..

[@Llamanescent]

They aren't even the same three pigments, so I don't see a problem with it at all.

[@KimberlyCrick]

My bigger problem with this is that other companies could have chosen to improve the lightfastness of moonglow by replacing the fugitive PR177. Instead they exact copied it, despite it being easily swappable for a more stable PR209. Now I mix my own Moonglow because of how bad the original fades.

[@betty_5335]

FYI Daniel Smith Moon Glow is just the name for sales reasons only. There isn't any coping that has happened, 😆. If that was the case all companies and manufacturers of watercolors are coping each other just changing the names. Just like you said in your video calling something genuine doesn't make it original. Check out Kimberly Clark Art channel and she breaks Daniel Smith Moon Glow and many other pigments down and how to achieve results with what we all probably already have. Thank you for your videos, truly enjoyable 😉.

[@KimberlyCrick]

Thank you, I definitely find it both enjoyable to play with mixing and also more lightfast to do it yourself since it gives you control over the individual ingredients instead of buying these pre determined fugitive mixtures :)

[@gretchenwilliams214]

Wow. I have been really impressed with these paints, now I have a lot of rethinking and investigating to do. A couple years ago I attended a PrimaTek presentation at Daniel Smith in Seattle. The presenter was the CEO. He said straight-out that there are only three ingredients in the 'genuine' colors: Ground mineral plus gum Arabic and distilled water. He showed us samples of the minerals used, a variety of large chunks. I have used these colors for the past 2-1/2 years and have felt the gemstone vibe with them. I have been promoting them to friends and strangers. Now I need to do my own investigation.

[@tzk4]

Thanks for the video,, very informative. I was always suspicious of the primatek line. I only have 2 5ml tubes which came in sets (the only reason why I own them). I always thought that colors looked really similar to their normal line. Also a few minerals when they are ground up into a powder are clear or a dull color (like amethyst.) I always figured there was something else in the paint. I defintly will continue to not purchase them on their own and will probably avoid buying the sets that include them. I also saw DS response, you nailed it with the aggressiveness.

[@kaidusa]

I'm really upset because I sold someone a monochromatic painting made entirely of Amethyst genuine and now I have to wonder will it fade over time, because everyone is saying that it fades over time. It's lightfastness rating is excellent.... and now I've sold work to customers having used primateks in some of my work and its really upsetting not being able to trust the lightfastness ratings of a brand. Thus this mean my entire daniel smith paintgs are going to be reserved for only sketchbook work because I can't trust the lightfastness ratings. It's just really irriating and I loved DS, but this is a very real issue that affects my reputation as an artist too.

[@sigrunella1]

Many brands punch up the colour Viridian by adding phthalocyanine green to it, but they put that in the informations on the tube. I think honesty is key, especially if they are boosting it with less expensive colours. If a lot of time and development has gone into the specific configuration of the colour, adding granulation, pigment separation, flow fx, they should just say that and that could be a justification of the pricing. And adding the word Hue at the end of the name would be a good idea since that would be the truth of it. Amazonite Hue would not be a turn off for me if I liked the colour and it's properties. I'm not sure, but isn't Schmincke´s Cobalt Violet Hue an example of that, so it is priced accordingly? I prefer different colours from different brands because the formulation of same pigments can be so different between companies. I have two different Burnt Siennas on my pallet because each colour fits different subjects, I need them both. Perhaps they should trust us consumers to see the quality of their products instead of creating a some sort of fairytale around it. Maybe this is first and foremost a marketing problem.

[@Joan4me]

Yes, we have been verbally misled by the choice of words used In the labeling of Primatek colors. That led to a dip into our wallets. Very sad because the colors are beautiful. The whole business is leaving a poor impression now of the total Danial Smith line. Thank you for your personal, educated, and honest opinion. I value it.

[@jkgjr8219]

Daniel Smith is laughing all the way to the bank! Overpriced is an understatement.

[@VanmeterFL]

Good grief, the PrimaTek line doesn't cost that much.

[@SuzanneLegault]

Thank you so much for this clear and impartial information

[@Christine_R]

I thought about Amazonite Genuine recently... In my opinion they shouldn't call it Genuine and trick people that are new to the brand. The word it deserved would have been rather imitation. I'm still experimenting with what I have to see if I can get close to a few of these colors. Maybe it's a waste of money to buy them... I read about Purpurite Genuine on Instagram recently. It seems like it could be Purpurite but the owner of the account worldpigmentday was writing Daniel Smith about it and never heard back from them. Kind of rude because people expect companies to be transparent. They don't have to talk about their binder recipes but at least what pigment is used. It's not a shame that there's "synthetic" Amazonite around but the lable on the tube should not be there and they should really think about the prices for the "Genuine" paints that are actually not that genuine.

[@knackability7098]

Wow! I have purchased these because I thought I was getting genuine minerals. I'm very disappointed. Thank you so much for this video.

[@judicousineau]

I didn't even think to think that there were other pigments in these paints. However, for me it doesn't matter, I just wish they (DS) would have disclosed it. Plus the price. The situation is unfortunate. I have a relatively large collection of Daniel Smith watercolors; which is now in the shadows due to this issue and response. Yes - say it's inspired by the gemstones vs being "genuine".

[@saraghhh]

The thing that made me question it is that they have a tigers eye paint. Tigers eye contains asbestos. It feels incredibly irresponsible for a company to sell a product that literally contains asbestos, so I questioned whether or not it could actually be real. Thank you for making this video! You’ve saved me from spending a big chunk of money.

[@sianbinnie4896]

Thankyou so much for making this video. I am new to watercolour and just starting to build my collection. I was interested in a couple of the Primatek colours but now having seen your review I am now thinking twice about paying double the price for something that is not as advertised.

[@gnostie]

Regarding Roman Szmal's Przybysz's Gray vs Moonglow, it seems to me that Da Vinci's Artemis is even more similar to Moonglow. What do you think?

[@lindawakiyama1603]

I’d heard about this Pimatek scandal before, but didn’t know the details, thank you for explaining it. I do have a question about Shimcke. As I understand it they make similar claims for some of their watercolor paints. Are they reliable?

[@maryanntaylor2179]

Alyona, I bought my PrimaTek tubes based on your earlier review, so thank you for speaking out. I also bought the PrimaTek dot cards which clearly lead you to believe they are made from genuine minerals when you study the back of the cards. I would like to vote with my dollars and reward other paint companies for having integrity in their marketing material. In future reviews, I would love to hear what you know about other companies. Are they being truthful? Or, is this a trend across the industry?

[@EveBolt]

Listing the pigments in a mix is not necessarily a recipe (since ratios are not mentioned). I'm curious to know how you feel in terms of your handmade paints', since you don't list the pigments. Do you see them more as a hobby or craft paint, rather than professional?

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

There is a reason why the term “convenience” mixes exists. Anyone even with basic watercolour experience can put certain pigments on the mixing tray and eventually after a few good attempts can figure out the “ratio”. So yes you can mix up your own version of the colour, it won’t be 100% as even pigments are sourced different and yes the mulling of the pigment can impact certain pigments more than others. But the mix still would be a recognisable “copy”. The quality of the pigments in my latest watercolour palette puts it in the artist grade niche, if you see how the pigments behave and interact - there are some lovely videos on Instagram people shared after receiving their Tropical Palette. Also I don’t use any fillers in my watercolours which would qualify as craft/student grade, and that can be seen in the imperfections of my watercolours, little cracks etc, but it’s all about great quality pigments. However, I do see the point that has been mentioned in previous comments that Artists would want to know the pigments. I am considering. But this video is actually not about my handmade watercolours and me not providing the pigment info, it’s about Daniel Smith stating they are “genuine” when they are not. This is a totally different subject matter to not providing pigment info of handmade watercolours. Although I do see a slight link, however I am not claiming my pigments are made out of genuine semi precious minerals! ;)

[@EveBolt]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations I see! I'm glad you're considering listing the pigments, it can make a big difference in terms of purchasing paints as pro painters :) (I was asking because the mention of custom mixes made me think of this, but I realize the video is about the Primatek paints mostly). And, on the topic of the Primateks, I'm also very unimpressed by how the CEO managed the situation. If he had been more transparent about the elements in the mix for those colors, it would've earned him a lot more goodwill.

[@kaileilani22]

I can’t find a copy of the CEO’s response anywhere online? Can u please provide a link to this quotation? Thanx....

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

I think someone left it here in the comments, although I haven’t read it properly by the looks of all the Capital Letters it looks like the one. 😅

[@jennw6809]

It's on DS's Facebook page, scroll down some to find it, they have posted lots to distract people from it.

[@hannahthufvesson]

I'm surprised by the response from Daniel Smith. It seems highly reactive, and that might be understandable had this been a conflict in one's personal life, but this is a Company, with customers all over the globe, and this is not, in my opinion, befitting a professional setting. I wrote a comment on Instagram, under their post with the statement, saying what I would have liked to hear. So much about this comes down to trust. Them trusting the many artists who buy their paint to be supportive of DS when they Are transparent about their products, and about respecting the work (and livelihoods) of these artists, and the retailers as well. I believe that includes providing correct information, to the best of one's ability. I also believe that any marketing decision that might leave someone feeling duped is not a great one, certainly not in the long run. I would have appreciated an apology (and an action plan going forward), at the very least for the misunderstanding, instead of a response that many felt was condescending (according to the comments on their post). I would like to see them list the pigments going forward. While I can understand not wanting ones recipes replicated by other manufacturers, and I agree that it doesn't feel right when you can tell something has been blatantly copied, it Is still industry standard to list the pigments, and I question why Daniel Smith would play by different rules. Is does come off as, petty maybe? I'm not sure that is the exact word I'm looking for, but I'll keep it for now. I feel like there's a big difference between being an independent entrepreneur, starting a small business and wanting to protect one's mixes (thank you for providing lightfastness info by the way! 😊) and a large, well established company, with a vast customer base, working with so many professional artists (who need accurate information), doing the same thing. They will Not be losing customers, should that happen. In fact, many might react like you did in the case of Moonglow, and instead want to support Daniel Smith More, by buying their original version based on principle. Also, listing pigments is not the same as sharing recipes. All of us who experiment with mixes in our own practice know that it's far from easy to get an exact copy of something, because pigments vary so much in and of themselves. While we may be able to mix similar hues, I often find myself going back to the original mix because they tend to have a specific characteristic that I just can't quite capture. It's not the case with every mix, of course, but still. Plus, different companies seem to have very different versions of pigments compared to one another, and even a copied mix would vary in hue, texture and behaviour. And I just think that it is a risk worth taking for a company such as Daniel Smith - risking getting pigment mixes copied to bet HARD on the trust between them and the artists. That is also betting on customers being loyal out of happiness and appreciation. Personally I won't be boycotting them since they do have paints I just love too much to replace, but I no longer feel happy about using their paint. I don't feel like they, as a company, are trustworthy or transparent, or even kind. And the colors from them that I don't absolutely adore, I will be purchasing from other companies as my tubes run out, and That thought makes me happy. I don't believe that's how Daniel Smith should want any of their customers to feel.

[@hannahthufvesson]

Also, when I read the comments on Instagram there were many who shared bad experiences with their customer service. Including them not providing information to people who are vegan or have had sllervis reactions to their paints. So now I'm very curious about people who've had good experiences with them! I'd be super interested in hearing about that! 😊

[@renmuffett]

The REAL Daniel Smith, founder of the company, a good honest man wouldn't have done this. The formula for Primatek changed only after the new owner took control. The originals really were only gemstones and binder. I know had both the old and the new. Not the same paint at all.

[@hannahthufvesson]

@@renmuffett Wow, that is such a sad thought! I kind of hope that's not true, because if that's the case, well, nobody deserves to see their life's work become something else entirely. It's hard to earn back trust after it's broken, and nobody who built a company from scratch, and certainly not if it's built on a foundation of certain values, would take kindly too seeing someone else uproot that hard earned faith.

[@amyr.862]

When I first heard of Primatek I was skeptical, even as an inexperienced painter. That's not knowing anything scientific just being a careful consumer. Even if they're not using jewelry grade stones, it would be expensive to make a paint from them. If the paints were genuine as stated they should probably cost more. A case of "if it's too good to be true it probably is." The response was very negative and turned me off of ever buying their paint. Luckily there's other brands to try! I've looked at their pigment info to recreate their mixes before. Saved a lot of money and learned more about color mixing lol

[@MysteryArts]

This is a tough one. I think I might like to see some additional support for the additional pigments that are supposedly in these paints because this information all seems to be coming from one source that tested the colors. Basically I would like to see some confirmation from another source. I don't want to rush to judgment about Daniel Smith, but perhaps they should also provide more an an explanation of their process and a better response to the "controversy" since it doesn't seem to be going away. The real harm here would be any lightfastness discrepancies if you are going to be creating professional work (I think the cost would still be justified just because of the lovely colors they have created that are clearly unique). I seriously wonder about the claims of the high level of phthalo green in some of the colors because that color is so staining and has very specific qualities that I'm just not seeing in the paint that supposedly contains that pigment. In any case, I would just like to see some additional info come out on both sides.

[@renmuffett]

The new owner, had to have tweeked the formula for better sales because many years ago when Primateks 1st came out (when the founder Daniel Smith) was in charge, I bought some. They were so weak in hue, gummy and pretty lifeless. Bruce at handprintdotcom reviewed them the same way. Then after the sale they suddenly everyone was raving about them. I was very suspicious. I bought some small samples to compare to my old and they are NOT the same Primateks that 1st came out.

[@hannahthufvesson]

I thought Phthalocyanine pigments are quite granulating and non staining until very finely mulled? But this is hearsay and should definitely be researched!

[@MysteryArts]

@@hannahthufvesson I had not heard this.

[@hannahthufvesson]

@@MysteryArts I'm trying to remember who said that! It was in a video/post just the other day! 🙈

[@hannahthufvesson]

@@MysteryArts Found it! It's in Kimberly Crick's video about DS Manganese Blue Hue (about 4 minutes in)! She posted it yesterday, I think. 🙂

[@alejandromorales9516]

I've purchased a few and enjoy them but I've always found them overpriced for what they were. I'll use up the tubes I have but I probably won't replace them.

[@MysteryArts]

This was the response from Daniel Smith to WorldPigmentDay's claims (the response does not seem super snippy to me and suggests that there is a more appropriate way to test the pigment--I think this is legit). I just wanted to put this out there because I've seen so many characterizations of what Daniel Smith said, but not the actual response. Take it for what you will.: Dear Customer, There has been a statement made that DANIEL SMITH PrimaTek watercolors are made from synthetic material. Let me answer this. Daniel Smith PrimaTek Watercolors ARE made using natural minerals. These minerals are sourced by Bruce Wood, our on staff Geologist. Each and every color in the PrimaTek line is made with the corresponding mineral listed on the label. The label says Genuine. It IS genuine. It does not say 100% mineral only. This is NOT possible. The majority of any watercolor is a gum arabic solution, without which, you would not have a watercolor paint. The way this is tested is by gas chromatography not looking through a microscope or polarized microscope. The minerals we use in production are mineral massive - they are not mineral specimens. As such there are other elements in association with them - mica, quartz etc. This is the nature of a mineral massive. Minerals can change their constituency by their placement both vertically or horizontally in/on the earth and by what other elements they are associated with. In production we use the majority of the mineral massive and the elements in association with them. Each PrimaTek mineral is different and is sourced from all over the world. There are some colors that, in our manufacturing process, are altered to assure the paint color is exactly as the tube before it. Not all mineral paint would be consistent without this step. Minerals are NOT consistent, it is their nature. This is a manufacturing process that is private and will not be shared. It DOES NOT take away that every single color is made with real mineral. Daniel Smith PrimaTek ARE made using minerals. John Cogley, Owner Daniel Smith Inc.

[@hannahthufvesson]

It might be worth checking out the comments section on Instagram under this statement, where @spindoctorart wrote about using gas chromatography for this purpose. :)

[@angelaking9619]

Thanks for sharing this. I agree that the response could have been worse. To me the worst aspect of this is the owner saying that they never claimed the paint was 100% mineral. What finagling! The tube clearly says "Pigment: [mineral name genuine]" and that's it. Just like their regular paints you expect to see ALL the pigments used listed. I believe there is genuine minerals in the paint, but who knows what else. As a hobbyist, the lightfastness etc doesn't affect me but even without that huge concern, it's still very off-putting.

[@hannahthufvesson]

@@angelaking9619 Yeah, I spent a lot of time reading comments after this statement was made, and most people were upset about the lack of transparency, but maybe mostly because of the response (reading the comments was super informative). Many would probably still have loved to buy and use these paints if they had stated from the beginning that it was a mix of synthetic organic pigments and minerals for example, or that the inspiration for these paints came from genuine minerals, or if they had stated that Now. I mean, the paints are beautiful! I was surprised by DS response, because @worldpigmentday was so incredibly humble in sharing information, and very much encouraged still using the gorgeous paints. And she wasn't stating anything somebody else with the right skills and equipment couldn't check out. Anyways, it's a bit baffling all this.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Thank you for reminding us of this memorable response! :)

[@angelaking9619]

@@hannahthufvesson absolutely - Green Apatite is my favourite Primatek and I wouldn't have cared if it had additional pigments listed. It is still beautiful and interesting.

[@Lacroix999]

1)These ARE different than other watercolors as they don’t rewet the same and most are much harder to do so. My gut says because of that, they are more “genuine” than not, not the other way around. 2) even if these aren’t 100% genuine, you can’t dismiss that they still DO cost more as they ARE STILL professional materials and not student grade and most other supplies that are such ALSO do cost more anyways. 3) even if they aren’t 100% genuine, and since they still DO have genuine materials in them, I would still pay these prices for them as they are still more unique paints that you’re not going to find anywhere else. 4) Sure, they SHOULD be more transparent with their materials, but if you understand why NOT disclosing the ingredients are a way to keep your products more sacred, why can you not empathize on that front even just a little as to why they wouldn’t?! Even when you buy some foods, many of them say “made with organic ingredients” even if 100% of those ingredients aren’t all 100% organic. It’s a marketing strategy to get you hooked in and THINK they are better, doesn’t mean they actually are are OR are being untrustworthy with its customers if they’re basically not really technically lying to you. In that way, they can still get away with saying these are still “genuine” minerals even if they’re not 100% made with 100% genuine minerals. And considering these are all made from natural ingredients you’re never going to get 100% all whatever compounds they say they are as these minerals don’t formulate that way in nature anyways. 5) I feel like if their formulas were not the same across the board, customers would still complain either way saying that they were as good batch to batch *because* they DO vary so much. Customers who purchase these supplies/materials to sell and do their own person swatches from, need to know what they’re getting as far as the COLOR goes. If it varies too much, they’d have to do new swatches every time they purchased a new tube because they wouldn’t be the same and I feel like that would be far too much hassle and inconvenience that it would render this particular product so unreliable and eventually useless because of it. It can look pretty but being all natural, if what you’re expecting is not what you’re getting, it’s not going to leave you with a good impression about their products. Even if they didn’t have 100% full disclosure, I feel like not disclosing their ingredients to the fullest extent, probably was the best move. I too have made my own paints and don’t think if I sold them, I would disclose the ingredients list either. If people don’t like that, they don’t have to purchase your products. But you’re not required to disclose the ingredients for art supplies so technically you’re not doing anything wrong by not doing so. I’ve seen people using recycled makeup for paints they sell and have no idea what’s even in those paints and aren’t even on the same levels as these kinds of paint and no one is making a fuss over those! 😂

[@MelanCholy2001]

I don't even like the Primateks tbh. I was "okay" with Genuine Phthalo Green, Genuine Phthalo Blue Red Shade, oh and the LOVELY Genuine Red Iron Oxide... even that last one though had some *"surprises"* about 6 months after I painted them out. _Broke my heart._ (I'm just over a year in wcs, and put a lot of effort into painting my paintings). Unexpected brown dots in several "Genuines" (like dirt)... at least I had the original picture of the painting, and any I hadn't used a fixative on, I was able to dab off the "ugly" and use opaque white and sizing (wc ground) to do some "repair attempts". *To be positive: I learned a lot* about what wc paper can handle (a LOT more than I'd guessed!), and that Dormand's wax medium is great for gently removing the sparkly "rock"/mica off the Genuine Diox Purple. The saddest is that I did Primatek "mixing" on the good paper like I'd seen you do with Schminke's super-granulatings, and all those pages are just waste paper now. Yes, some mixes were successful, but I'm not using Primateks anymore except to practice techniques when I'm bored. Why use the good stuff (like my lovely QoR Diox Purple) when Primatek Genuine Diox Purple will do the job?! Seriously, I'd rather take my chances with handmade paints from Etsy, or even discontinued paints, than put a decent brush into some paint that might destroy the brush hairs. DS epic failure. (But I'll still pick up their uniques I really like, quin rose and raw umber &c. The "basics". I'll try other brands first, though.)

[@BB-nz5sk]

Well said Alyona!

[@rachelbuyshouses7261]

Thank you for review (albeit wordy). At Watercolor Live 2023, Thomas Schaller says he loves DS , especially Jadeite Green which he painted some lovely trees. However, for me, 5 ml for $10 (out of stock), and the Set of 6 for $44, is out of my price range.

[@brigette3004]

I don’t buy watercolor without pigment info. Roman Szmal uses a different green pigment, I like it better. But both use fugitive red. I mix my own with a light fast red.

[@ntaylo6299]

Some DS Prima Tek colors are amazing. Burnt Bronzite is a personal favorite. Black Tourmaline is a close second. But so many Prima Tek colors are so close in hue to each other and then the cost I can pass on the 80 shades of Brown. Having a few is nice but DS is just okay next to Qor and M Graham also US brands. I am glad this information is out in the open.

[@hansendesigns]

If every color remained only the property of the original chef, you wouldn’t have all the companies and good competitive prices providing watercolors.

[@izabelacichanska5781]

Hmmmm....There's a lot of artists that mix ultramarine with burnt sienna or so to make a really nice grey... why not every one of them put their name on a premixed tube of paint...like DS did with Blundell grey...how you can say that the paint was copied if you don't really know what's in the paint and how it's composed apart from pigment numbers?

[@tfolmer1234]

Wow... I've been mixing burnt sienna and ultramarine blue for years.... Guess I'd better stop since DS came up with Jane's Grey and just buy theirs from now on!

[@natford8271]

We are all entitled to our own opinion.

[@etheralsymphony]

It’s been a while Daniel Smith has been claiming their watercolor to be vegan at least from 2017. That would mean there’s no ox-gall, animal glycerine neither honey.
This is for elders that have been painting with DS watercolors for a long time. Have you perceived any difference regarding this watercolor performance from the old tubes to the new tubes?

[@Manara111111]

I totally agree with you.. he can start with an appolygy and remarketing the line with changing the prices!!!!!

[@stevesidare2493]

List what ingredients ARE in the paints, like the others are done, and say what % of stone IS in the pigment. ["10% genuine (whatever)"]

[@VanmeterFL]

Daniel Smith was the first watercolor paint manufacturer to add the pigment information on the sides of each tube. None of the other manufacturers did this. Even if you don't have a single DS Primatek paint, I'd like to ask you to note how LOW each of the Primatek paints is rated. I've used them for years and they are VERY liftable. Then think about the claim worldpigmentday made that Amazonite Genuine is 90% phthalo green (and other phthalo or highly staining pigments are "said" to be in HIGH levels in the other tubes). Anyone who has painted with a high staining pigment, like phthalo pigments, knows they will NOT lift. The claims are false. It's just not possible. Besides, the Primatek line is very granulating.... just like the finely ground down stones they came from.

[@slaicerise5075]

The love of colours should not go together with cupidity...

[@CATAZTR0PHE]

I think that they made an odd mistake. If they would name them just "Amazonite", "Zoisite" etc - and advertise it as paints "inspired by minerals, with fine materials used in them, including minerals" - they still could sell them at a higher price! And still would have fans. And still Sleeping Beauty and other paints would be valued. If I would spent that much on Amazonite and I'd find out now that it's mainly phthalo green, cheapest pigment, I would really feel cheated! But if they would list it on a label... They treated this pht green uniquely, they ground it coarser, so this IS unique paint (just as Ultramarine Finest from Schmincke), and as it I would be interested in Amazonite 😵😅 non-staining pht green is interesting for me!

[@SUSSDUE]

I agree with some in this video and certainly not with other opinions expressed in it. I have always been a bit suspicious of Daniel Smiths claims as I early , when they just had come out, bought into the hype of the mineral pigments and bough a very expensive tube of Lapis lazuli, believing it would turn out this vivid blue it was then shown as in the DS colour charts. My dissapionment was huge when it turned out a weak light grey blue suspended in a huge amount of binder! I emptied all the tube into a bowl w distilled water and actually sifted away all the gunk and the grey stuff and was left w a tiny tiny amount of a light blue pigment I then used w a little Gum arabic, honey and water to make a paint- but the tinting strength still was nothing at all like the one DS claimed it would be! I then bough a genuine quarter pan of Lapis Lazuli from Cornelissens in London for half the price of the DS tube, and it is this lovely ultramarine you see in renaissance paintings- I could really have just saved the money for the DS tube since it was useless. Still I have many of the DS colours I really really like, so they are not bad paintmakers, just not very honest ones in their marketing. So now I only buy their paints when I have swapped them from their dot charts and liked them. I really really love the now sadly gone Quinacridone Gold, made w the proper pigment and not the mix they use today. I managed to buy three tubes before they went extinct and now treasure them like gold (sic)! So I agree DS should drop the previous marketing hype of these being all in " genuine" mineral colours and say " inspired by" and put the pigments used on the tube- that would be honesty! That takes me to the other subject where I take a totally opposite opinion than Alyona. When I buy my paints I want to know what pigments are in them. Mostly because of lightfastness- if I would sell or give away something made w a fugitive pigment it would feel like I have sold or given away a fradulent product. and that goes for the handmade paints from a small watercolour maker to the big brands! The argument that a certain pigment mix ought to be a secret is just ridiculous - pigments are out there and can be mixed whatever way anyone wants and to keep them a secret just for petty monetary reasons is just nothing but sneaky and stingy! Anyone does as they like, but I would never buy any paints without knowing what pigments go in them and that goes from a small buissness of handmade paints to the big brands. Another reson for revealing the pigments are actually that it can make sales of the original mixes grow. I could never in any way afford to buy all the Schmincke granuating mixes, but as they very properly have put the pigment numbers out there I could easily try out these mixes with my own watercolours and see the ones I liked.. Of course I could have left it there and gone on to just make my own mixes, but some of them were so beautiful I actually decided to invest in some of the ready made mixes- so there Schmincke and the shop that sold them to me made a gain- just by being honest, generous and open with the pigment content!

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Thank you for your comment, I appreciate your opinion!

[@shadowseer07]

I have always had this suspicion about the primatek line. I find them beautiful regardless, but I wish DS was more transparent about this.

[@hansendesigns]

Genuine, not genuine, whatever. My beef would be not knowing what the additives are and their lightfastness etc.

[@Michele-rn5bf]

I believe Roman Szmal worked for Daniel Smith before forming his own company? Either way, they list the mineral as the only pigment on their tubes. Highly unethical. With all the competition out there I’d rather purchase from a brand I can trust.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

Did he really work for DS? I had no idea, need to do some research. Well I wonder how long it will be until the current CEO steps down and a new one tries to rescue Daniel Smith, which was build up by the actual Daniel Smith. What a horrible thing when a reputable brand gets destroyed like that. As I watched yesterday in Lindsey’s video [Frugal Crafter] DS had beautiful paints no need for this gimmick PrimaTek line. 🧡

[@aeliren]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations that’s something new... As far as I know, Roman Szmal was for a long time the only distributor of DS paints in Poland, but never heard of him actually working for DS. I cannot neither confirm nor deny it (will have to ask friends about it, who know him better, as it’s quite interesting). Szmal also provided pigments already for years, so I rather think he got inspired (which in the end brought us some unique color combinations:).

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

@@aeliren to be honest who knows now with everything that’s coming out... 😅

[@aeliren]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations absolutely;p. That’s why I won’t be risking my head saying that I’m sure, he didn’t work for DS - it seems highly unlikely to me - why would DS hire someone from abroad if they have plenty of experts around and Szmal lives in Poland. But as you said - nowadays you never know for sure;p. I still love the DS primatek colors, but I feel like I should not have paid an arm and a leg for them if they are not what the company claims them to be. And the CEO’s attitude doesn’t help. Well, who thought we will have another art world drama this year;p

[@Michele-rn5bf]

@@aeliren you could be totally right. He may have been a rep, but he was involved with the company in one way or another. I love DS paints, but they’ve lied to the customer and ripped us off. It’s left a bad taste in my mouth. I’d rather spend my money with a company that doesn’t think of its customer as a cash cow.

[@sailorfan86]

My 2 cents is that they should come clean. If they continue selling them, then they should rename them and lower the price. Got a few tubes of the Genuine ones. Would, probably, continue buying them since the colors are beautiful.

[@user-vr2qp2hi8z]

How foul and slimy! I didn't even know they had precious stones when I first found them- I wanted to try the hematite ones. Maybe I'll go for iron oxides instead.

[@VanmeterFL]

I love my hematite. It works so well to paint fur. I also love how easy it is to lift Primatek paints (making it impossible that they are 90% highly staining phthalo pigments, as has been claimed).

[@lindsayjayne2169]

I agree, the primatek colors themselves are just beautiful and rather unique. But the arrogance, and disrespect, Daniel Smith has shown since this has happened is honestly like a kick to the teeth for all their customers. The way the CEO reacted tells me that he (arrogantly) believes that his brand, his company, is untouchable. Like you said, he response was like a child throwing a hissy fit, extremely unprofessional. Also very narcissistic, I'm right; you're wrong -Period! Like how about you stop and think about ALL your employee's and their job security, because that's what you're risking here. Entitled, self-serving, and arrogant. Yeah, this has definitely rubbed me the wrong way. I'll definitely use up my ds paints, as they're too expensive not to and I do love them. But I'm not sure about supporting them in the future. Thankyou for sharing your thoughts on this Alyona, I appreciate this:)

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

That’s the thing. I feel strange “liking” DanielSmith instagram account pictures anymore because I disagree with the CEO’s stance. But at the same time I wonder how all those employees feel having to promote the brand and go full steam ahead under his instructions knowing now what’s what. Also I wonder how he is as an employer?! :)) Just before this scandal funny enough Daniel Smith team put my video links up on their FB group. Those were the PrimaTek dot card set videos. Which of course was good for me and good for them. But I feel a little strange now using DS watercolours in my videos and I am mid series, I feel a lot more comfortable reaching for other honest brands. Coming back to the point earlier, there are many employees under DS like in any brand that wouldn’t know of the actual “making” of the products. How they must feel now! Or those famous artist that put their names on those sets, how they must feel about their own reputation. I’d be fuming!! How do we support Daniel Smith as a brand that was established by Daniel Smith but certainly not the direction it has taken with the new owner?! Daniel Smith needs someone authentic, someone enthusiastic, someone current but also someone really knowledgeable in this field. I bet everyone would turn back around again without a doubt! Fresh start is what Daniel Smith needs as a brand in my humble opinion. 🧡

[@lindsayjayne2169]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations Very well said! I'm with you there. If they brought in a new leader, someone with a honest and fully transparent approach, someone who will truly appreciate their customers (as they understand that's how their business will flourish) and someone will be enthusiastic about doing so, then they could absolutely turn this around! I've got a feeling that the current ceo doesn't listen to anyone, about anything. Judging from his behaviour I don't see him being the one to turn this around, as he'd have to apologize and admit that he was wrong to approach the situation in the way he did, and I just don't see that happening. Oh and side note. I looked on the ds instagram, as I was curious how the conversation was going, and I couldn't find one SIᑎGᒪᗴ comment about it.. Humm, can you delete comments? 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

@@lindsayjayne2169 oh really? They did have the DS response a couple of weeks ago, and I read quite a few from big KZbinrs who were supporting DS for years and they all seemed in complete uproar. If DS deleted the comments that would look even worse... oh dear! 🧡

[@lindsayjayne2169]

@@AlyonasWatercolourCreations Yea, I just went and looked on a bunch more posts on their instagram.. and I can't find ONE comment even mentioning it!! Definitely makes no sense.. what an honest approach hey?! 🙄👎🏼

[@ranamcmahon7653]

Good for you! 🌸💞🌸 but to d.s....boo to the hiss! I have some d.s. and they are great product. Too bad about the primatek. Apparently they made another wonderful product but now it is tainted. I would buy some now if they lowered the price. I've seen how much they cost. 👎

[@vickilee6335]

Commenting here well past the height of the issue. But I must say that the situation changed my feelings about DS. I followed along as it was happening and put my Primatek purchases on hold and have not gotten over it to resume. I don't think I'll ever buy another one. I still use the 8 or so I have, but I don't feel the same way about them. I just don't like the misrepresentation of what they actually are. And then charging so much more what's been misrepresented.... I just can't get over it.

[@268anita]

I’m so disappointed both in their response that ignores the actual issue brought up, and that they have been lying. The paints are very interesting, but I want truth and transparency- put the pigments on the tubes, and be don’t lie to the customers.

[@sevdacetmiyilmaz8069]

All I will say is that it is not fair on the people like yourself who has obviously spent a fortune to buy this product. It is a waste and it is money that could have been spent on things that are actually worth it.

[@mattmcdonald7112]

www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/primatek.html for an old analysis which sheds light on the issues around "genuine" pigmentation. It's not easily done and to be honest it seems actual sciency types outside the establishment of the company has been suspecting the falseness of genuine claims all along. Sure there is genuine minerals in there, but of course thats not all, and the guy in the above link knew that some time ago.

[@EugeniaLoli]

At these prices, and DS being a pro art company, all pigments need to be listed, even if it might not be a legal requirement (as it is with food, for example). Pro artists who buy these paints need to know what they're buying, otherwise it's their reputation on the line if these added pigments fade, for example. Also, Moonglow is being copied by 6 other big companies, not just Roman Szmal, although they're not always as good. DaVinci has the best imitation for it, it's identical to Moonglow (and personally, I prefer DaVinci paints to DS, even if I live in WA now, close to where the DS paints are manufactured).

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

I have heard a lot of good feedback about DaVinci but haven’t tried any of their paints yet! Tfs. 🧡

[@Honeyfruity]

How dare Roman Szmal make that watercolore affordebal for other parts of the world...

[@loveandlife4222]

I have just a couple of questions. If these primateks have no minerals in them, what is making these beautiful paints react as they do? They are beautiful and unlike any other paints available. What is making them different than most any of the other Daniel Smith paints in that they are so hard to rewet? Most of them are also somewhat pale in color. What about all of the people that have toured the Daniel Smith factory and have actually seen them making the paint with real minerals? The artist that tested the paints showed a tiny dot of these primateks analyzed under the microscope. She then presented her claims. That’s really not fair without showing the entire tube. Without doing that, it really is an unfair presumption in my opinion. Everyone is believing this lady with one little dot of paint. I’m really shocked about that. I’m not justify John Cogley and his way of responding - but after the lady posted the accusations I went on to read all of the comments on all forms of social media. Everyone was brutal and very mean to him. His response was defensive with a lot of backlash. Unprofessional true, but understandable - especially with no clear proof that there are no minerals except for a tiny dot of paint under a microscope and just the word of one person. (I mean no disrespect). I’m sure she is a very educated and lovely person. I just don’t think I will switch to not using these beautiful Daniel Smith primatek watercolors that give me results no other watercolor paint can, especially in my landscapes. I will base my choices by the beautiful results I get from an outstanding paint regardless of what was used to create it. If I need to paint something for a commission or for someone else, it’s very simple. I will choose other paint with lightfast properties. I do plan to do a lightfast test of my own so that I will know about the primateks. I think I will test amazonite with the accused phthalo color to see if they fade the same. 😁 By the way, you did a great job of presenting this video to us Alyona. It really is a very sensitive subject. I just cannot base my assumptions on such limited information.

[@KimberlyCrick]

I don't think anyone said they weren't made of ANY natural state minerals (technically most pigments are minerals, but here we're specifically referencing unaltered ground up rocks and gems without synthetic production). I think the issue was more that the amounts varied per color. Some supposedly had common cheaper ingredients included. People seem to think that Primatek colors are so unique that they can't be replicated, but this is not true. When mixing colors, it's good to keep in mind that some of these rocks are just multi pigment mixtures in their natural rock form (purpurite is an impure state of pv16 manganese violet with trace minerals, mostly black iron oxide which is PBk11....and Hematite is a rock that is formed from red and black iron oxides). As such many can be extremely closely replicated with that in mind... Some take a little fun experimenting, Burnt Tiger's Eye looks just like PBr11 and PBk11 mixed. Phthalos, Nickel Azo Yellow and Lunar Earth make perfect matches for serpentine, diopside, jadeite, green apatite... I think that most artists don't play with making their own mixtures enough to realize how easy these can be replicated for cheaper. A small handful of single pigment granulating colors added to a basic mixing set can be all you need to replicate much more expensive paints. I'd be a little surprised if phthalo or amazonite faded at all, both are considered pretty stable colors. I did see fading in sicklerite, rhodonite and the mayan colors in particular. I do think everyone should buy what they want, but to assume they are 100% natural mineral without any enhancement to colors for batch to batch consistency with the aid of normal common pigments might be far fetched.

[@loveandlife4222]

@ Kimberly Crick Art - I have heard claims from peoples accusations that there is no (or very little) minerals added. I don’t think we can determine that without observing an entire tube/or tubes of paint. I also think anyone that thinks fillers etc. aren’t added to the paint to make it what it is should realize the primateks have to be made that way for consistencies sake. I’ve also never seen anyone be able to mix pigments together to match the magic of the primateks. I’ve watched many try it on KZbin videos without success. Maybe you should try it (if you have a KZbin channel) and show us.

[@KimberlyCrick]

@@loveandlife4222 Looks like responding with links to the videos you asked about probably got my comment flagged or deleted, but yes I've made videos about mixing blue apatite and lunar blue, a PBr11 spotlight for serpentine, green apatite, burnt tigers eye as well as a lightfast alternative to moonglow so far. Hopefully they'll help those looking for ways to mix them cheaper.

[@loveandlife4222]

@ Kimberly Crick Art Awesome! I’ll check out your videos. Thanks! I am very familiar with and actually have all of those primateks.

[@AlyonasWatercolourCreations]

@@KimberlyCrick I watched those videos over and over! :) You did an amazing job remixing so many DS/PrimaTek colours! Puts my attempts to a shame. 😅 Loved your latest video as well! 🧡

[@Discofoxx1]

Personally I think it is better the way it went down, not via a marketing team and spin doctors, because that would just be damage control and make them look even worse. The response makes them look bad, but at least it shows their true colors. I agree with you that they should make the paints a lot cheaper. But also if they don’t give pigment information, they shouldn’t be branded as artist grade watercolors. Artists need to know exactly what is in the tubes. Personally, I won’t sell or showcase work made with Daniel Smith watercolors, just don’t trust them also not the older ones. If they lied about what is in the Primatek range, what else did they lie about?

[@VanmeterFL]

Daniel Smith was the first (and ONLY) manufacturer for many years that put the pigment information on the sides of their tubes. I still trust DS because I've seen through the "attack hype" and did a little research myself. Each of the Primatek paints is very LOW staining. The claims that the Primatek paint is 90% high staining pigments (like phthalo pigments) makes it impossible to believe. If a highly liftable paint was made up of such a high quantity of a highly staining pigment, it would NOT be liftable.

[@Discofoxx1]

@@VanmeterFL I choose not to live in the past or ignore current facts. 🤷🏾‍♀️ The DS you’re talking about was sold and the current owner chose to misrepresent (i.e. lie about) the Primatek line. If they did that with one line, they could have done it with the others too. So unless testing happens by independent party or parties, you can’t be sure of what’s in the tubes. Even when you stick it in the window and get excellent lightfastness, that doesn’t mean you have a semiprecious pigment, because it could have been enhanced by synthetic pigments. If you choose to ignore that and “trust” them that’s your business. But don’t accuse the rest of us who don’t put our heads in the sand and share our dismay of being on “attack hype,” cuz that’s just a straw man argument if ever there was one!

[@maximme]

give Paul Rubens a try, they coming across more genuine...

[@phillipstroll7385]

What they should do is remove the genuine from the label and lower the price. Problem solved.

[@beadaholic2]

I have about 18 primatek tubes. I will let them run out. I have about 100 Daniel smith tubes…but this last month I have been buying Holbein and Schmincke tubes…I will no longer continue to support Daniel Smith. Their response left a bad impression on me. It is not a mistake but it is fraud, period. This is clear. I feel taken for a ride.

[@VanmeterFL]

I'm still very disappointed this whole non-troversy ever started but I have to touch base and add again that anyone with any common sense would realize worldpigment's claims can not be true. You can't have a paint that is over 90% phthalo pigment and it stain at such low levels as every Primatek paint does. I asked worldpigment HOW any paint can consist of such high levels of phthalo and not stain. She only responded that this was her stance and she wasn't changing her mind. That's not the attitude of a scientific mind let alone someone with common sense. If these divisive and negative posts provide a large number of hits and that's all you are interested in, fine, but you should have reviewed her claims with real probative questions that challenged her claims and didn't just buy into them.

[@peteinuk]

It is all very disappointing.

[@yukayuka15]

Hi Ylona. They are not authentic mineral watercolors. I found out some time ago that they are made with the perlescent shimmer. This watercolor is transparent, it only has glitter and if you mix it with another color like purple, green, or raw umber, etc. you can get many colors from its primate range. It's just glitter. You can see for yourself by mixing its perlescent shimmer tube and another of its normal colors. It is a real scam. The colors repeat over and over again with different names and textures. Nothing more.

[@alexandriadesrameaux7208]

I think artists are too into pigments. I was so happy that Primatexs are not real minerals.

[@neyalek5024]

This is a weird take. Very odd in deed.

[@alexandriadesrameaux7208]

I love to paint just to paint for my therapy. I just can’t get my head around why would you want pure pigments when some is already not longer around because how the pigment was made.