DS3 has the sh****est level design*

[@-jakey-]

"Whats DS2's first level?" Exactly

[@MrI-po4tg]

Ok you have the point can't argue with that

[@jared30]

I'd say it's forest of giants. If you call this area the first in ds3 and not the starting area with gundyr, that is.

[@burushifudara]

​@@jared30 i needed to see a gameplay of someone else to even see it was there the first time

[@jared30]

@@burushifudara sorry there wasn't a neon sign saying forest of the giants this way

[@burushifudara]

@@jared30 No, I am just almost blind, the path to Forest of the Giants being on the part of the map it is, made it just dissolve into nothingness on my field of view lol

[@izakizakizak1234]

Calling the Highwall straight is a pretty good compliment for the guy who built it.

[@midnighterx]

Actually ye true

[@micklucas1451]

no

[@juble7086]

Walls can be curved numnuts

[@micklucas1451]

@@juble7086 what?

[@crosscutcobra]

​@juble7086 but a curved wall doesn't make it a maze

[@stamfordblasius1754]

It's the straightest of straight lines (is a literal circle)

[@rdevan3245]

Still 1D 🤷

[@NocturnalNick]

​@@rdevan3245 a circle is 2d

[@rdevan3245]

@@NocturnalNick a disk (the interior region of the circle, with or without the boundary) is 2D. a circle (just the boundary) is 1D.

[@Bluepiggy121]

I actually think Forest of Fallen Giants is pretty good

[@majula1518]

it’s actually my favorite. ds2 is great

[@cashworth1444]

i think you both smoke crack

[@mystic_4817]

Its one of the best areas in the whole series

[@majula1518]

@@mystic_4817 i agree, to me it’s the most iconic but that might be biased

[@robertdurst9089]

I started playing DS2 recently and I really was not feeling it but I thought Cardinal Tower had very cool level design and fair difficulty, definitely got me more invested

[@MyNameIsSalo]

I’d have to disagree with that. You can go kill dancer and unlock an endgame area right at the start if you wanted to. Same as all the souls games. There’s a lot of hidden areas too, like the jail with that merchant guy, room underneath the dragon, estus flask room with 3 axe dudes. If you’re speedrunning you’re going to skip it all but if it’s a first playthrough you have a lot of paths to explore And after vordt the game opens up even more

[@TheHumptyDumper]

​@masterlinx767 what's wrong with the first ds? I just bought the remaster and just made it to blighttown after ringing the top bell. I wanna know what to expect lol.

[@paveljuga7068]

Yeah, I don't understand this straight line argument, obviously if you're doing the speedrun route where you just pick up the resins and go straight to Vordt, it's going to be just a straight line but you are skipping a big portion of the area that you would have explored on your first playthrough. It's the same as with all the other games, once you know where to go and what to pick up, you are essentialy just going in a straight line from one boss to another but that doesn't mean that's what the game intended.

[@mum-your]

how does that equal to good level design? are you daft?

[@reggiejacksonfan6823]

Second half is janky​@CHEEKDESTROYER

[@XxTh3Fall3nxX]

​@@masterlinx767I just completed DS2 and I disagree DS2 end game like the dlc was way harder than ds1 and 3. I would say it's harder just because they put like a cheap amount of enemies in the rooms. I guess not even hard just unfair.

[@lightfalldark3616]

Lies of P is a corridor

[@asdfghjkllkjhgfdsa8725]

Main reason i havent played it.

[@AbuSigh]

@@asdfghjkllkjhgfdsa8725nah u definitely should try it.. corridor doesn’t mean it’s shit

[@Johnytomm]

@@danielsama5886 Honestly really clunky and slow

[@soulsreaper73]

Yeah stupid asf its def not stupid head ass​@@Johnytomm

[@1mana157]

@@Johnytomm ??? of all the complaints one could have about lies of p, I don't get how it could be seen as clunky and slow. the combat is quite fast paced for the genre, and the controls are incredibly tight. also, after reading through more of this comment section you seem to be dropping shit takes left and right without actually explaining anything. maybe you're just trolling and I'm wasting breath, idk

[@reixx-_-]

This is the first time I've seen someone think Highwall's level design is bad. It's an amazing tutorial area that prepares you for later in the game. I also find it ridiculous that those who see this game's linearity as a bad feature.

[@CoffeeArtThings]

Completely agree, the linear nature of it let them focus on making each individual area the best it can be, I still have fun going through and exploring every bit of the map, and I am STILL finding new things to this day, I recently played through 1 again and just now 2 for the first time and I feel like a lot of the hate for 3s level design comes from nostalgia. DS1 has a great world and you CAN go anywhere from the start but it's very obvious where you are "supposed" to go, it also falls apart after you get the lordvessel and the quality starts falling off fast, and in DS2 while being more linear than 1 somehow is more confusing and its individual level design is all over the place in terms of quality. DS3 for me hits a perfect middle ground, where a brand new player isn't going to need a wiki or help to figure out where to go at any point, while still providing rewarding exploration and secrets, as well as great level design pretty much all the way through.

[@mauriciorosademoraes9209]

Ds2 is already linear but Ds3 linear is boring. You can't re-explore multiple areas or just wait to finish after and go explore the other path and don't have many secrets in Ds3 comparable to the 2 (no freedom, low amount of surprises). Also is a good walk/rolling simulation in that game so makes much more boring to play it. The boss fights carry the entire Ds3.

[@lukefitton7329]

@@CoffeeArtThingsI think DS3 is TOO linear to the point where the early game heavily suffers for it making each subsequent playthrough feel almost identical as you have far less options for builds in the beginning. Road Of Sacrifices and Farron Keep leave a lot to be desired and the Undead Settlement is nothing to write home about either considering the very obvious progression paths, lack of tough challenges that you feel the need to return to later and not many interesting secrets or shortcuts. As for the High Wall. It’s fairly solid, I do think they put quite a few enemies in rooms together that they shouldn’t be, could’ve been slightly shorter for a first area and having to warp there rather than being able to travel and discover it yourself is a shame (the shortcut feels pretty pointless there too) but all in all I kinda like it. Cemetery Of Ash was a solid start too just not as perfect of a tutorial as the Undead Asylum. As for DS1’s late game I quite like New Londo, Duke’s Archives and The Catacombs, but I will never defend Demon Ruins, Lost Izalith or Tomb Of The Giants.

[@Emulator833]

@@lukefitton7329 I agree that Road of Sacrifices and Farron Keep are the worst areas in DS3 but Undead Settlement is one of the best areas in the series, its not linear at all with 2 main different paths, plus a lot of small forks in the road, shortcuts like the rat tunnel, optional areas like the small lake at the bottom, Demon, Siegmeyer and the giant at the tower, optional boss and a secret covenant entrance, a lot of good loot and incentive to explore, amazing visuals, very good enemy design and Boreal Outrider Knight is a good and fun challenge at the end.

[@lukefitton7329]

@@Emulator833 Not a huge fan of the giant on the tower personally, going up the lift just to ask him to stop and go back down after you’ve likely been bombarded with his arrows near the edge of a cliff was a little annoying for me. Also not keen on the Curse Rotted Greatwood as a boss. Cool that there are two paths but they both quite brief and soon lead to spaces accessible from both. I agree about the optional rooms with good loot though and some solid enemies in there but it’s just not an area I particularly enjoy replaying.

[@slay-thoven1357]

Pontiff literally makes me want to play ds3 again. I love that fight

[@dreamz1417]

I don't like the High Wall, but what is it with specifically Souls fans and saying/putting OBJECTIVELY before the most subjective thing ever

[@liszt646]

They're all entitled lol For ME Bloodborne and Ds3 are the best but I'll never say it's a fact. There's no objective opinion.

[@arkan5000]

Forest is fun, but there's a lot of punishment for first timers. The ambushes, pursuer, turtle knights and the fucking explosive barrel shortcut. It's really creative. Makes the Undead Burg look like a bigger bunch of lines

[@AzarathMetreon]

Sounds shit just from your description, no thanks

[@twistit4844]

I recently played ds2 for the first time and I LOVED the forrest otfg. DS2 has definetly one of the best level designs in all from history. Especially the starting regions and the DLCs are awesome if you love to explore.

[@arkan5000]

@@twistit4844 yes, except horsefuck valley (Frozen Outskirts)

[@Heihachi8]

Yeah I don't know why many say that ds2 is bad I mean look at the game it's beautiful. And always when I play ds2 I feel so relaxed and peaceful like Yoda.

[@arkan5000]

@@Heihachi8 i got all 3 games at the same time, and i spend more hours on 2. Creating character,. NG+, and pvp... oooh pvp. DS2 pvp really puts remastered to shame.

[@Mczprosvids]

High wall doesnt have a guy swoop in from a falcon with a great sword therefore forest>highwall

[@bluevanga30]

Facts. They should have brought the pursuer back

[@daith_izumi]

Pursuer is one of my favorite bosses!!!

[@daith_izumi]

And he hunts you throughout the game like the big guys in Resident Evil 2 and 3

[@nezkeys79]

​@@daith_izumiImagine two Nemesis in a small room XD

[@sethcarter9833]

W Take 🔥

[@QrozOne]

DS3 imo has great level design. People just like to say linear = bad level design. The individual areas in DS3 are mostly great, some are at least solid and even the ones people dislike, such as Farron, are well connected internally. The only areas I actively dislike in that game are Yhorm's lair and new Izalith. Dungeon has annoying enemies but the area itself is not bad imo.

[@bigred212]

Eh I kinda of agree with aggy the first level looks wise and just playing thru in general ain't really hittin on shit fr. I do 1000% agree with you tho irithyll dungeon is the sh*ttiest level in that game nothing but hatred. The layout is ass, the enemies are ass. The only thing to look forward to in that level is the boss cause the gimmick weapon to beat him with is really cool. Other than that throw the whole level away. That one dlc level with the angels is also terrible nothing but a blood pressure increase.

[@mystic_4817]

DS3 doesnt have bad level design as a standalone game. The reason why its 'bad' is because its a noticable downgrade from the previous games

[@RabidCupcake2010]

@@mystic_4817 True, well said

[@ghost_bunny34]

Having started with DS3 and currently going through DS1 I can see why people talk about the connectedness DS1 has, but I'm also annoyed about most bosses ending with a dead end and a homeward bone.

[@Edward-Not-Elric]

It also isn't very linear. The first area of the game has an endgame boss in it (Dancer) that, if you beat her, can lead you to one of the final bosses (Prince Lothric). It has variance. People just like to criticize things.

[@jporpora]

straight line is peak level design ever hear of a little diddy called crash bandicoot

[@sacredgeometry]

Which was not a good game.

[@lukefitton7329]

@@sacredgeometrydelet this

[@sacredgeometry]

@@lukefitton7329 no

[@vincentwilson9293]

Diddy

[@joshsmith6817]

​@@sacredgeometrydelete it or I'll tell your mama

[@willr3891]

The forest level is an excellent introduction to managing groups of enemies and spatial awareness generally.

[@mauriciorosademoraes9209]

But 90% of the players doesn't want to learn this New gameplay and just want Ds2 to be the braindead rolling and R1 Spam of DS3. Ds2 enemies are way worse but Holy shit, i have 600 hours in Ds3 and only 3 280 hours in Ds2 but 260 hours in Ds2 is just PvE and Ds3 just probably 170~ hours of PvE. The gameplay is so bad because it's braindead, i can't take it more, this make me in a man that cannot play Elden Ring because of the Ctrl C ctrl V of Ds3 Gameplay, i don't have fun playing a game of 3 buttons with over exaggerated attacks animations, it's getting cringe to me.

[@juanitoblogs6574]

​@@mauriciorosademoraes9209 stop crying bro

[@TheRealCptObvious1]

Forest of thr Fallen Giants is so beautiful. It's one of the few peaceful areas

[@egeguzeldiyar]

peaceful with a lot of skellies dropping firebombs and shit on you yeah

[@TheRealCptObvious1]

@egeguzeldiyar i mean every area is going to have combat

[@Stuphy1147]

Awful take, not a bad starting area at all, honestly it's pretty decent

[@bolson42]

It’s the best IMO. You can literally get to the end of the game from the first area, it’s great foreshadowing of both the first half (after vordt you can see the entire map from undead settlement onward) and the second half (hollow butterflies, dragon, pus of man), plus it has two bosses and both are great. Meanwhile you have undead burg which looks super gross, feels way smaller and isn’t much less linear, and has… taurus demon. Forest of fallen giants is a bit more complicated and the pursuer is a good boss, but the environment and enemy placements aren’t too great imo

[@orionfell]

@@bolson42Vordt is not a great boss lol he’s the most mid and generic boss in the entire game. Dancers good though but it’s hard to consider her a boss of the starting area when most runs don’t fight her until after you’ve done half the game

[@Death7_]

​@orionfell bro, do you expect that 2nd boss of the game to be a complex boss as a dlc one? Vordt is a perfect boss for the first area. He introduces a new mechanic of the game (frostbite). It has different moves and attacks and a clear second phase that makes the player understand that every boss its going to have second phases. It is definitely a better initial boss than Taurus Demon (although I love that boss fight design), Last Giant, the Persuer, and 90% of ds2 bosses

[@alexandere9368]

@@Death7_ The first boss in ds3 - Gundir - is far better than Vordt.

[@Death7_]

@alexandere9368 Well, Index Gundir introduces you to the game (fast and dynamic fights, second phases, parries...) and it is a well designed boss. Vordt isn't as charismatic but he has dynamic music and presents you the status effect of frostbite. Both are well designed bosses, I wouldn't say one is better than the other, both do good in their purposes

[@GGPlex_]

Nothing like getting killed by the Peruser in DS2, I can still hear him say “I’ll see *you* later…”

[@thehighlandfox]

I definitely prefer DS2 level design over DS3's. Even if the combat is way better in 3

[@spyrotikus]

All the examples they brought up, and High Wall are awesome levels.

[@lotrfan4237]

Forest of Fallen Giants is leagues better and more interesting than High Wall, like it’s actually not even remotely close

[@j0dor]

Never seen someone shrivel so quick.

[@YDreams93]

Passive aggressive tones in the making

[@anysn2268]

Forest of the Fallen Giants is one of the best levels bro, love me some post-war wastelands

[@weebto]

high wall is the best area in the entire game imho, at least as far as sheer design goes - the others are far more linear and/or boring. This one features a lot of enemy types, solid amounts of loot, a challenging optional boss that completely opens up the game (like nothing else does, unfortunately) and it can be tackled in a number of different ways. It's a really cool playground meant to teach you the basics and to let you test your character class, overall

[@richhornie7000]

The possible first level of DS2: 1. Forest of Fallen Giants 2. Heide's Tower of Flame 3. Shaded Woods 4. The Gutter 5. Grave of Saints 6. Draenglic Castle

[@yeahwellthatsjustlikeyouro7466]

The Gutter and Grave of Saints are impossible to access first on a new character. Not even with the Cat ring. Drangleic Castle and the Shaded Woods are being blocked by the first statue which requires a specific key item to bypass. This only leaves Forest and Heides. Both extremely easy areas that can be considered "first" interchangeably if it wasn't for the fact that the game literally tells you to go through the forest by placing the entrance right next to the Majula bonfire.

[@princeofsomnia7664]

​@@yeahwellthatsjustlikeyouro7466you can buy fragment from the hag.

[@foxctocofxk8509]

​​@@yeahwellthatsjustlikeyouro7466heides is definitely not an easy area,at least compared to high wall or undead burg

[@Kenny_Pax]

high wall honestly just feels like a good starting point imo it doesn’t try and shove too much of what the game is down your throat it’s like ur starting at the very beginning with no knowledge of what to expect as everything is so different going forward

[@cjyoung5635]

Arent their like 2 mimics, a dragon, and the mini me fat boi followed by like 8 or so knights with one of them being a red wraith? Thats alot of pound town for the first area.

[@AETERNA-PASSIO]

@@cjyoung5635 thats if youre one of those people that just run through all the areas and dont fight any enemies. taking your time and killing all the enemies efficiently negates that problem.

[@cjyoung5635]

@@AETERNA-PASSIO I mean that is true but within the context that dark souls 3 shoves the most stuff at you after the tutorial for no reason is still spot on. It'd be like if a streamer was told the cemetery was the right way to go for their first ever dark souls experience. (The coms would be right since that makes everything easier but it'd be hell getting to pinwheel and back for them)

[@TheMikesc15]

Hot take (I guess?...). I miss linear games now. It feels like everything is open world and massive and my ADD can't take it man.

[@SrTNick1]

There's a difference between a full open world and something like DS1 or DS2, where it's more about branching paths to choose from. I do think the crazy increase of true open world games is a bit much. It's cool to see the genre open up beyond Bethesda games of old and some more obscure titles, but I feel like the bandwagon has caused other genres to lack behind.

[@babzm.1666]

It’s baffling that a person who plays the FromSoftware games practically for a living can have such a horrid take on them.

[@jessemiller3108]

Agreed

[@C-sco]

Like the area is litterally a ring how can you call it straight?

[@AETERNA-PASSIO]

well he is semi-rarted

[@babzm.1666]

@@AETERNA-PASSIO shut the hell up

[@richardlong2094]

They’re all good, ds3 is hectic af and really cinematic with the dragons and all the hollows I actually think it’s probably the best starting area

[@lambsauce5312]

The second half of this level has a lot more branching paths and larger areas, i quite liked it and it surprised me a lot as a first time player

[@shadypielover]

I love how DS2 has many optional areas right away, but yes Forest of the Fallen giants is technically where you should go first. DS3’s Highwall is definitely one of my favorite though, there’s a lot to explore as a first timer and it has enjoyable enemies and interesting landmarks. Nothing is gonna beat Demons Souls first area though 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@AnDyJuMpEn]

Played the beginning of ds2 Yesterday and with some experience i have to say that IT combines Forest+Heide Tower pretty well

[@soodle_noup_3890]

Respectfully I disagree. If anything it's the same if not better than other souls games level designs. You only have to kill like 3-4 bosses at most in the beginning and then you'd have access to both DLCs, & 2-3 end game areas. Even with linear level design ds3 still has great level design.

[@sunshineandrei2569]

Ds3 is too fundamentally boring for me.

[@Happy_Sailor639]

Try playing it with a friend, and find out that you'll have to replay freaking village and cathedral. Oh, and don't forget miyazaki hometown, which is that stinky swamp :D

[@sunshineandrei2569]

@@Happy_Sailor639 yeah ds3 has a lot of areas that are cool but have nothing that encourages you to explore... Unlike dark souls 2.

[@yeahnahmate7]

^ more glazing

[@sunshineandrei2569]

@@yeahnahmate7 how is it glazing or are you just a brainrot slop enjoyer with no self control.

[@CrescentMoonboi]

The Pontiff Situation is Insane

[@daith_izumi]

“All of them are weird” Lost Bastille and Heide’s Tower of Flame???

[@maeldilazzaro2756]

she is on drugs

[@Heartfia]

She’s hating for the sake of hating, I just don’t get it…

[@vwavefun]

Heidi’s tower of flame is freaking beautiful. Something straight out of a fairy tail. I ended up going there first before the forest. To me that’s the first area

[@Wallahi13]

Heides tower of flame might be the worst area in the entire series

[@mauriciorosademoraes9209]

THE RATS AREA!!!!

[@___dh__dh__]

Some deep analysis there

[@lastsonofktn]

😂

[@Ethman16]

Undead settlement and cathedral of the deep are 2 of the best, most well designed levels in any souls game imo

[@DreyfusLagoon]

Cathedral is great, undead settlement is pretty decent, I think I’m just not a huge fan of the enemies there

[@braynaguilar8567]

Irithyll and the Ringed City are great too!

[@common_undead]

Cathedral of the Deep, Undead Settlement and all of Irithyll are pretty good. Most other areas in DS3 are just boring.

[@braynaguilar8567]

@@masterlinx767 I know what you mean, nothing is quite as iconic as getting to the Ringed City only to be absolutely demolished by the ghost archers haha. The Ringed City is up there with Irithyll and Anor Londo for me. Aesthetically, I think Elphael, Brace of the Haligtree from Elden Ring is probably the closest to it in terms of the general atmosphere and architecture. I do wish the Ringed City itself was larger though, since the Ringed City streets is still a swamp (though at least its not poisonous).

[@remasterzoofrombo152]

@@braynaguilar8567 I didn’t like how from the cutscene you see the huge sprawling city then when you go in you spend 50% or more of the time in the dlc in a swamp and a cave. Missed potential imo

[@sarahsugersarah]

technically ds2 has a tutorial area

[@MrMich1lol]

DS1 mid to late game level design is non existent and you're too scared to admit it.

[@MyNameIsSalo]

Facts Once you get lordvessel, it goes from this interconnected world to “let’s just teleport everywhere and make linear levels”. People remember undead berg, but forget everything else

[@aml-zq5mc]

The Dukes Archives was pretty cool. But other than that I have to agree the second half of the game along with the bosses flop

[@fastenedcarrot9570]

New Londo, Duke's Archives, The Catacombs and Tomb of the Giants are all good to great areas.

[@ameshizen381]

​@MyNameIsSalo ds1 doesn't reuse hollow soldiers for 2/3s of the game tho

[@biglmaowski6509]

​@@fastenedcarrot9570 Tomb of the giants is literal dogshit wdym

[@thugbynaturaleza]

I Love 1 2 3 all are masterpieces

[@probablyswifty209]

ds2 is so overhated it’s insane

[@yesiam7481]

Seriously, DS2 Forest of Falling Giants is an awesome level with optional branching paths and tons of nooks & crannies to explore. High Wall of Lothric is just a straight line like he said

[@probablyswifty209]

@@yesiam7481 fr like I get that not everyone is going to love DS2 but why are we pretending DS3 has better level design 😭

[@yesiam7481]

@probablyswifty209 To his credit DS2's level design & connections is so bizarre you could "beat the game" whilst missing entire zones and bosses. There's IS alot of "backtracking" (I mean you teleport everywhere so...) with the petrified woman blocking shaded woods or the miracle woman pulling the lever for huntsmans copse... But those things made me feel like DS2's world was *alive* and not just some level

[@JubioHDX]

@@probablyswifty209 i mean this entire clip is aggy agreeing with you that ds3 has bad level design (the game is still better tho lets be real. ds2 isnt garbage but its not great either)

[@probablyswifty209]

@@JubioHDX fat disagree i definitely prefer DS2 over three mainly because DS2 has much better level design and build variety. I still love DS3 but DS2 is crazy underrated.

[@braham_eshwald5922]

The Pontiff situation is crazy

[@kyrollos777]

You can kill dancer at the start which is cool

[@smoothyodaproductions4373]

Yeah but thats about it as far as good level design goes lol

[@kyrollos777]

@DamianW-b8c you just walk to her boss room at the beginning, rather going to vorm you go the opposite side to the door which can be opened, but you can’t climb up the ladder since you need the bowl

[@kyrollos777]

@DamianW-b8c lmao it’s hard to explain haven’t played in a couple years, but from vordt’s boss room door, you walk to the opposite side of the map, and go up the stairs pass the two knights and open that door

[@FrostFall0261]

@@smoothyodaproductions4373 the levels are still good, just not as interconnected. there's a difference and the absence of second doesn't mitigate the first. having a more linear structure sacrifices the fun of exploration that other souls games have, but in turn it is the most polished, balanced game out of them all because it can accurately gauge how strong you'll be at what point (as long as you aren't farming or not killing anything at all)

[@hellsing2003]

U will hate pontiff more if u know his lore

[@walkingtodawn]

If ds2 didnt look like shit and feel like shit to play, it would be a good game lol

[@sacredgeometry]

"If the game was good it would be a good game" Yeah probably.

[@friendlyreaper9012]

Yup, the game just feels like ass. I genuinely want to play the game but it is so visually unappealing and feels incredibly unresponsive.

[@SrTNick1]

​@@friendlyreaper9012If you're on PC there's a lighting mod that came out semi-recently that makes it look as good as DS3 without impacting performance. There are also popular mods that tweak gameplay to get rid or change most of the things people who disliked the game don't like. Check out Nexus mods, installing like 2 mods will probably fix it up for you.

[@BigBoyz33]

DS2 has the shttiest first DS level ever, tf u mean 😂 DS2 wishes it can come close to DS1 and 3

[@alextapia8798]

Just trash talking ds2 without learning it all the way.

[@ikigai1799]

Forest of the Fallen Giants and High Wall of Lothric, both are very good starting areas

[@legendaryszoke]

Dark souls SOTFS has better level design throughout its entire game than anything in ds3

[@JaqueefiusBrown]

kinda true i just beat ds2 and ds3 for the first time and the only place in ds3 i kinda enjoyed was irithyll and the vibes of untended graves ds3 had better bosses but felt too short tbh

[@thekween9037]

I thought Heide tower of flame was supposed to be first, so in my first play I did that wondering why it was so beautiful and so difficult.

[@ThisShitWontWor]

I did exactly the same in my first play😂

[@GeorgisTrying]

DS3 is one straight line, with a small, mandatory side quest to the cathedral. Immediately kills so much replayability for me, every time 💤

[@Rowafruit]

I feel the exact opposite. ds3 has the best replay ability besides elden ring ofc

[@GeorgisTrying]

@@Rowafruit the straight line kills it for me, I much prefer DS1's flexibility. But keep playing your favorite souls game and never let go

[@quasarone3083]

Calling High Wall bad is such cope honestly, it's a fantastic tutorial area

[@jesseg1217]

Bro ds2 is so good, I'll never understand peoples beef with it

[@felipeemanuel5790]

I think it's more you don't want to understand.

[@jeausy]

DS2 isn’t bad per-say, it’s just at the bottom of the FromSoftware list for a lot of folks, myself included. Behind DS1, 3, BB, Elden Ring, Sekiro, even Demon Souls.

[@featdirty1127]

Generally it comes down to the fact that it has some…interesting exclusive mechanics (cough cough ADP), had a fairly rushed development due to rewrites I think, don’t quote me on that, and the way the levels were designed was vastly different than in DS1. Though they kept the same “you can explore the first level or you can just skip to the end” mentality their way of doing it was totally different, something more in line with what Elden Ring did honestly, that being a large world with multiple different ‘dungeons’ to explore. Couple that with using the ‘spam enemies’ technique a little too often and many people found the game difficult in a way that couldn’t always be solved with getting better and would instead end up being more luck based (or it just made getting good significantly harder). Learning that soft capping ADP at 27 made my rolls similar to the DS1 rolls is what saved me. Now DS2 is probably my second favourite of the FromSoft games that I have played (why must so many of them be PS/PC exclusive!?!?). Nevertheless I understand why people dislike it

[@CriminalizeObesity]

Because people download their opinions from whiny coping youtubers, it's not complicated

[@mihsah7556]

ds2 being good is like how shitty pizza is good

[@keinchi]

Straight line… yes, no? It’s closer to a tree branch, you have a bunch of branching areas that dead end, continue somewhere else, or circles back. The forest after Majula by comparison is a straight line

[@calebtheholyman545]

DS2 starter area was awesome. I hate the DS2 slander. Everyone hates it, but no one can say why. It has the best PVP, the best NG+ runs, some of the better loooing armor choices, and has some fun and unique bosses. I had more fun in DS2 than DS3 by FAR. I didnt even finish ds3 because i got so damn bored.

[@Symbabww]

Sound like a mad cause bad situation

[@meemu1612]

I don't think I can agree that ds2 has the best PVP or ng+ value but it's Def not as bad as people think it is, I believe that ds3 is still objectively a better game but you thinking ds2 is better is your opinion and I respect that

[@Kiba_Tatsu]

It's not about the NG+ runs or pvp or even the fact that you can mix and match most weapons.. Scholar of the first sin was lit storywise and some bosses were ruthless. But some of the mechanics were just made to try new stuff and it didn't appeal to some people changing the formula and all. Plus the game flatlines after a while and even some of the zones made no sense literally breaking immersion on some elevators. Was it bad ? no. Was it good enough ? yes. Is it the best Darksouls ? Sorry but for most people it's not even in the conversation. I definitely enjoyed it and it doesn't deserve the hate clearly but out of the 3 Darksouls it's my least favorite

[@mothman5035]

"No one can say why" brother you'd have to have your head 12 meters deep in the sand to not know why with how much this horse has been beaten before but I'll bite. There's lots of areas but they're generally short as hell (usually only have 1-3 bonfires max) and only padded by the astronomical amount of enemies spammed everywhere, the game doesn't even allow you to run past the enemies because fog gates and doors don't give I frames so you have to kill every damn enemy on the map just to progress and if you die at any point you start over, which obviously also translates to boss runbacks being unbearable. And once you do trudge through you are met with the most boring wet fart of a boss you could imagine. Like seriously, one of these bosses was literally just a room full of fucking rats. Real inventive gameplay here. Another boss is just a dumb snake woman in a poison pit that makes it impossible to beat her until you google a guide and find out you can burn down a windmill with a torch to remove the gimmick (how the fuck is anyone supposed to know??????) And at that point she's pretty much just a glorified random mob. And that's not even going into the movesets. Most bosses have like 5 attacks max, one of which being a basic ass 3 hit combo (slash, slash, slam) where you dodge the slam and get a free punish. Most bosses in this game can be beaten by just strafing to the side, dodging the big attack and punishing repeat till dead. They don't even have second phases or anything. I've beaten most bosses in the game first try. I've legitimately died more times on the way to bosses than the actual bosses themselves. I've just made it to the Undead Crypt and have yet to meet a single unique and fun boss. They're all just predictable gimmicks. Most bosses can just be summarized with one sentence (oh this guy can only be hit in his face, oh this guy summons little guys, oh this guy is literally just another boss I already beat but there's two of em now). Even Gundyr, the tutorial boss in 3, has more depth than all the bosses I've faced so far. It's like someone made a souls game where every boss was inspired by the Deacons of the Deep. If despite all this you still enjoy this game more than the other games good for you I guess but I just legit cannot see where you're coming from.

[@calebtheholyman545]

@@mothman5035 your view definitely makes me see the reasoning better. I play souls games all the same. I never rush bosses. I methodically explore every room I find, kill every enemy I cross, and find it very fun. I guess it makes sense that I would like dark souls 2 more than other people who prefer other methods.

[@spicygaming3783]

Am i the ONLY one who likes that ds3 is linear? Like not every game needs to have a damn maze for its level design

[@WinRARx86]

So many of my friends first experiences with souls games is DS3... and a lot of them have had zero interest in trying another souls game until recently. I always thought it was the classic souls bosses are too hard, but turns all they ALL quit the game in High Wall. I dont blame them honestly, getting through High Wall for the first time is like pulling a tooth out.

[@pffpffovich2398]

Honestly, just finished DS1 remastered and had a great time (except for Izalith) and decided to play DS3 next (playing on PC so DS2 is non existent for me). I HATED the high wall. Started as a mage, no HP, dealing next to 0 damage, no stamina etc. Game becomes a lot better after High Wall.

[@MLWJ1993]

​@pffpffovich2398 don't play anything but melee with a bit of something else to the side, because every other option got nerfed into the ground. It's not really viable for normal people that don't know where the okay sorceries/miracles/bows are.

[@t-mango2491]

I love the forest, Ds2 is literally my favorite and dark souls 3s levels do not compare

[@EddieTheBunny]

I Never hear precise reasons when people criticize DS2, it’s always “bad” or in this case “weird”.

[@robertwalton434]

In ds1 your movement is clunky, but there’s poise to help with that. In ds3 there’s no poise, but you can roll roll roll, and the movement is precise. Ds2 has the clunkiest movement and nerfed the parts of ds1 that helped you. Poise nerfed. Endurance split into 2 stats, weight hurts your rolls on a scale. Stamina cost for rolls increased, imprecise snap turns on the left stick, castlevania-esque knockback on hit. The movement is whack in a game about spacing and timing. I honestly love the dlcs, but I’m having fun in spite of the game’s mechanics, not because of them.

[@silverkenessy5195]

Allow me to give you some of the precise reasons,first things it has a lot of gank even by souls standards, the enemies just stun lock you to death(old iron keep,shrine of amana), horrible boss runs, (kings pets ,both smelter demon),bosses do not have a lot of variety and rely on gimmicks(earthen peak boss and the dukes dear freja,squalid queen) and horrible hitboxes and bullshit moves(ancient dragon,royal rat authority) there are also other things like clunky combat or slow af Estus heals or areas that are downright impossible without a mage build .Ds2 had a lot of creative ideas as well however according to me it has to objectively be the worst in the series.

[@johnnymember]

I loved DS2. Didn’t even realize people thought it was worst game until after i beat it like 2 or 3 times lol

[@athaulfberinger582]

areas where u need ro be a sorcerer? what the actual fck xD ​@@silverkenessy5195

[@defeatedsxnity]

I've had to hear it a million times. DS2 is my least favorite of the series and I've heard why it sucks a MILLION TIMES I'm honestly starting to get sick of it to the point where it's making me want to actually play it again

[@MathisEEZ]

My will to continue playing finishes at Faron. Then I remember how incredible the endgame is and boot the game up again.

[@diesal_one]

Dude i fucking love High Wall of Lothric, wtf is he on about??

[@A.D.I.D.A.S-916]

Both these 2 are cooked bro don’t even think too much about it. High wall of Lothric is great.

[@reefermonster9651]

bro is wearing his nice shirt

[@highdo2244]

How fucking dare you, lmao. High Wall is my second favorite area in DS3. Top 10 favorite Soulsborne areas. There are plenty of optional paths and windy halls. There are two different bosses and two different dirctions. Plus, the area has quite a bit of verticality.

[@swordofthereal]

my main complaint is that high wall is generally kinda difficult with a lot of fast and deadly enemies, compared to undead settlement which is quite a bit easier to get through for a first timer. It kinda feels like the difficulty curve is swapped around for those areas, wouldve been nore enjoyable to rebalance em

[@kahlebhowarth-jennings9688]

Dark souls 2 is in my opinion the best game of the lot

[@aml-zq5mc]

Started with 3 then 1 and now currently playing 2. And i have to say Im enjoying 2 more than 1

[@Mason_____]

As a ds2 lover and defender, I can confidently say it’s absolutely the worst soulsborne game. The amount of awful levels, gimmicky encounters, boring bosses, and useless filler is unbelievable. That being said it’s one of the greatest games I’ve ever played. All the things I mentioned make me love it so much. Its such a unique experience that I’ve dumped hundreds of hours in to and always look forward to my playthroughs

[@kahlebhowarth-jennings9688]

@@Mason_____ I mean if you break any dark souls style game down too it's core that's what the games are, gimmick encounters, repetitive bosses and purposely awkward level design, that's the very core of the experience people are seeking with dark souls style games, too me 2 is a great mix of 1's janky controls and 3's more basic level design, whilst not being too much of either one, the world is still interconnected, so that's no missing, the main thing people don't like, myself included is adaptability, it just doesn't need too be a levellable skill, but it did make your character considerably weaker dps wise making the boss fights last longer and by association more likely too kill you, also 1 is way too overhyped, absolutely incredible game as all the from soft souls series games are, but given way too many props simply because it's the first dark souls and therefore people have a massive emotional attachment too it, but fact of the matter is ds1 has just as many bad gimmick bosses as ds2, only thing holding ds2 back bosses wise is the smelter demon appearing twice and the old iron king is basically a 6 year olds attempt at the world eater fight from elden ring

[@soodle_noup_3890]

@@kahlebhowarth-jennings9688 U are just objectively wrong about that one man. No other game in the series has as many issues as ds2. U personally can enjoy the game and find it to be the best out of all the souls games. However if we are speaking from an objective standpoint it's the worse. Look at it this way. If there was a new soulsborne game being made but it has all the issues of ds2 I wouldn't even think about spending my money on that game.

[@A1Kglennandchips]

@@soodle_noup_3890how can an opinion be objectively wrong? why does liking ds2 HAVE to be followed by pushback?

[@Satan_on_methamphetimine]

I still can’t find out how to get through the high wall of lothric. Its the only souls game I haven’t immediately figured out where to go

[@ashraven_stark6383]

Dude, just say you're not a fan of linear level design. No need to hate on the whole area just cause it's "too straight" for you. It's the first real level. Cut it some slack.

[@fastenedcarrot9570]

There's plenty optional parts too.

[@Yive.]

Exactly I’m sick of people hating on ds3 for a design choice that made the game more balanced

[@Mason_____]

High Wall is arguably the most challenging starting zone in all fromsoft games other than yarnham (esp for beginners). It’s a massive combat puzzle with a clear point a to point b…but that doesn’t mean it’s linear. Just bc it’s not a giant Metroid level like ds1 doesn’t make it less valid. Also this guy can’t parry so not rly sure why we care what he says

[@Yive.]

@@Mason_____ W

[@bolson42]

And it’s ironically the least linear first area lol. Undead burg, you either go to undead parish or… lower undead burg, both of which just go to firelink anyways. Forest is either a dead end or bastille. Whereas high wall you either skip the entire first 2/3s of the game or continue normally.

[@technogamia]

I think Dark Souls III is more about a "Hero's Journey" About progression and conquering The level design fits better with the lore

[@aldrichh_xd]

Saying that ds3 has a bad level design is an insanely shit take imo

[@smoothyodaproductions4373]

Its not objectively bad but its nothing compared to ds1. All the shortcuts are just doors you can only open from one side and half of them are barely even shortcuts

[@Happy_Sailor639]

It does have the worst level design. Levels aren't fun to replay, blank and filled with idiotical moments. Like in Irithyll, you could've jump from bridge just to skip half of location XD Never had that issue in other games.

[@austin0_bandit05]

She doesn't even know DS2's first area. That vague dismissal 😂 Tbh its a great level. The default is just to hate DS2

[@sacredgeometry]

She does he cant remember it ... she can ... insinuating that it is not good its forgettable.

[@AllLarryNoLurr]

nothing you say to me will ever make me like the high wall, bad annoying clown show area. i just run through so i can enjoy the undead settlement

[@louis-philippechapleau8149]

Ds3 is my favorite Soul game but from the genre I have to say Bloodborne has the best first area of all. Yharnam was so fun to explore the first time.

[@scarletripper9342]

The high wall is fine, its the slog after the high wall that makes me dread a new playthrough

[@alfrednado5926]

irithyll of the boreal valley has horrible level design aswell simply because all the shortcuts to pontiff LITERALLY SUCK. You CANNOT get to him without fighting atleast 5 mobs and even if you run past them you’ll get hit

[@gakkari9668]

I got lost so much in DS3, I do not think it's the straightest of straight lines lol

[@itsDemifiend]

The DS2 slander is unreal. Sad!

[@danlorett2184]

DS2 doesn't get really gud until the last half of your first playthrough AT LEAST. Maybe even until NG+. However it has the best NG+ in the whole series. DS2 is just a weird game.

[@brianelliott6726]

All souls games are weird in their own special way.

[@weeville]

​@@danlorett2184 it's a weid game but I think it has more strengths than ppl realize just bcus it's different

[@Johnytomm]

Terrible game, sorry

[@bungholio1586]

@@Johnytommterrible take sorry

[@mikeanthony999]

Pontiff becomes way more fun when you put on a buckler and learn how to parry him

[@spookyswamprat]

L take

[@C3lticlord]

highwall of lothric is insanely boring

[@kyletrout3828]

I legitimately don't know if High Wall is better than the Forest of Giants because it benefits from being in the better game. Unfortunately, I think Aggy might be right. Forest of Giants is at least visually interesting even though everything else kinda sucks

[@Heleyrine]

I think that's not being really fair to the Forest. The Forest has some pretty cool shortcuts, looping back to the bonfire near the hag (one of them being exploding the wall). It also has your first meeting with the Pursuer, which will remove him as a boss if you could defeat him. It has the Giant trees which is such a fantastic thing to come back to at the end of the game, specially with that one tree that has the "Here a Giant rests in peace", and that tree being the only one you can't go to its memories and the only one giving a seed. It's such a subtle but touching thing that really stuck with me when I first played. You also find the key to one of the DLCs, and one of the king doors here. And also, "Forest of the Fallen Giants" is such a metal name! Specially with its double-meaning.

[@jak3y3]

I mean, it is linear tbf, so it makes sense that it’d be a straight line

[@sewerentropy5217]

he's so based, DS3 level design is so so so boring. if DS3 didn't have good graphics, people would say it's worse than DS2 (which it is).

[@yeahnahmate7]

Delusional

[@sewerentropy5217]

@yeahnahmate7 nah most people loved ds2 until a bunch of people who started with ds3 told everyone that ds2 sucks even though they've never played it. you should try ds2 some time, it's a great game and isn't a straight line the entire time

[@AdemTumerkan]

I liked DS2s area layouts..

[@carythacker8049]

Rare aggy w

[@XD2003-v5p]

Yeah I came to play the game not think and solves puzzles trying to find where tf I need to go next

[@prod_mystery]

Idk if there is just something wrong with me but I found DS1 to be more of a “straight line” than DS3 was. Pretty much every area of DS1 just felt empty and like they’re wasn’t much to explore 🤷‍♂️

[@firetitan19]

there is something wrong with you

[@prod_mystery]

@@firetitan19 hell yea

[@smoothyodaproductions4373]

There is definitely something wrong with you lmao look up a map of ds1 its quite literally the opposite of a straight line

[@prod_mystery]

@@smoothyodaproductions4373 I know what you mean, just for me most of the areas were nearly pointless to explore, which makes it feel like I’m just supposed to go in a straight line, idk it’s hard to explain what I mean lol

[@prod_mystery]

@@smoothyodaproductions4373 like in anor Londo, that was the most hyped area that I heard of going into the game, and it was super underwhelming to explore, just looked good. But I feel like most areas in ds3 are fun and rewarding to explore

[@el-bomba]

Fun fact about me. I beat pontiff in like a couple tries and I still hate him

[@Wineblood]

Forest of fallen giants is excellent, definitely better than most ds3 areas

[@DeanGulberry13]

yeah but ds2 has the most content and the best dlc’s of the trilogy lol (outside of the ringed city i GUESS)

[@bhavyagulati5738]

ds3 is definitely less fun than ds2

[@MythicR]

Dude tripping out saying High Wall is bad

[@Arita_kouhei]

Ds2 has better level desing than ds3 because is more open, in the begining in ds3 you only can explore 1 zone and in ds2 like 4 zones

[@anubhav7999]

Yeah how you ascend in a lift in a tower to a castle which is in a volcano 🤣🤣

[@Arita_kouhei]

@@anubhav7999 true 😂 I forget this place, was very funny see a volcano-castel on a mill

[@deojnwedofuWE]

@@anubhav7999 Supposedly that was just some weird oversight. The earthen keep was meant to be set into the side of a mountain (IE the volcano) and then you ascend to the to the caldera, which would've made it make sense. But somehow it got left out and never patched. Maybe something to do with the hardware concerns of making it work on xbox 360

[@MyNameIsSalo]

People forget that you can kill dancer and unlock the entire endgame

[@deojnwedofuWE]

@@MyNameIsSalo No, that's not really a great argument regarding level design.

[@bandolando3265]

i cant lie yeah High wall of Lothric kinda sucks ass. Lothric knights are fuckin rough on anyone whos not good, and i always end up farming them on every playthrough for the full lothric knight set, and the lothric knight sword and greatspear are two of my favorite weapons, so that area always devolves to a lothric knight farming area for me so yeah its kinda annoying after a while

[@Spectru91]

who tf is this guy?

[@j0dor]

I think it's her bf?

[@NoahToledo-xo5pj]

The 2 areas you are likely to start in DS2 are forest of the giants and Heide and honestly I would rather take those before Highwall of Lotric. Highwall feels like an area that exist to connect 2 real levels.

[@mikhailkalinin6536]

The piss yellow filter kills me. It's not a bad area but damn can it be ugly sometimes. It's crazy to me that some people think ds3 had better areas than elden ring.

[@dixon137]

bro i do not care.. just aslong as im not getting stuck on invisible shit like in darksouls 1

[@LukaGeld]

Dark Souls 3 is a masterpiece even the level design.

[@aml-zq5mc]

The thing I enjoyed about DS3 is that the game gets better in almost every aspect as you progress

[@enclaveofdoom]

Lol

[@jplite7746]

@@aml-zq5mcYeah like a poison swamp after a swamp area. It truly just gets better.

[@mr_jyggalag]

Even Ringed City?

[@smoothyodaproductions4373]

@@jplite7746dont forget the critically acclaimed ringed city dlc which is yet another grey blob and swamp area

[@nahuelkid]

I mean... DS1 areas are also pretty linear, its just that they have paths that connect eachother. There isn't even that many ways of looping back into the level unless u get the Master Key.

[@miles_0234]

DS2 is the best game don’t talk shit on it especially comparing it to easy ass DS3 😤

[@yeahnahmate7]

Glaze

[@miles_0234]

@@yeahnahmate7 and?