DS9: Bashir confronts Ross about Section 31

[@Chocobear555]

I love Bashir's tone of voice when he says, "Admiral, where's Sloan?" It's that, "I'm fed up. I mean business. Don't mess with me," tone that Bashir rarely, but effectively, uses. :)

[@danieldickson8591]

"Don't even try to lie to me, I know your game and I'm done playing."

[@tallflguy]

I kinda thought the tone was like “I figured out what happened, I’m not stupid, tell me the truth”.

[@lyianx]

Its that 'Kahn' tone "Don't insult my intelligence, Ross"

[@lordvadertheleftie9703]

That's his secret agent tone

[@CancerLicker]

It's great because it's so subtle. He just calmly repeats his question, but the implication is so vast. "No, Admiral, we're not playing that game today. You damn sight know I know what's happened. We are going to have this conversation and we are going to have it now."

[@Stemnin]

Sisko probably found it awkward when Bashir told him that Admiral Ross most likely got a Romulan Senator killed to keep them in the war. And Garak happens to walk by.

[@SheldonAdama17]

Garak: Wait, he killed a Romulan senator and didn’t invite me?!

[@lordvadertheleftie9703]

​@SheldonAdama17 well Garak was a gardener on Romulus after all

[@Adelina-293]

Garak: It wasn't me, okay, it was, but it wasn't. It's all true, especially the lies.

[@WillemDafuq69]

extremely good observation. The Sisko was likely motivated by Ross.

[@uncletaylorify]

I met Alexander Siddig at DragonCon last year and had him sign my cast photo. On your DragonCon pass badge, you can have something printed on it. I had "Section 31 Operative" printed on mine. When I showed that to him he held out his arms, smiled and laughed "Ahhh come on!"

[@Aitherion]

Poor guy just can't get away!

[@vincentcushnahan5292]

An EVOLUTION OF A CHARTER

[@avataz]

A real operative wouldn't have a badge

[@austinboylan5476]

uncletaylorify I take it he was a nice guy? I’ve heard different things about different people in Trek.

[@Crunkboy415]

@@avataz He would have a black badge.

[@romancandle416]

Barry Jenner (RIP) created a backstory for Admiral Ross. He had two children, a son and a daughter, both in Starfleet. The daughter made it through the war, but the son died in combat. When you view Ross as a grieving father who would do anything to make sure no other parent had to bury a child, his actions make more sense.

[@DutchGuyMike]

Amen!

[@MeeMaw1971]

PREACH IT!

[@Eisenwulf666]

His actions make a lot of sense anyway. While the people of the federation sleep in their comfy beds, there are tough, unshaven operatives doing abominable things in the shadows, just to allow those people to sleep peacefully. If the war lasted just 3 days less because of their actions, how many lives would be spared? The Cicero quote doesn't mean :the end justifies the means. It means that you will have to do things you would never dream to do during peace time, horrible things that go against the laws of a civil society because your enemy won't abide by your rules, there are no rules.

[@Ares99999]

@@Eisenwulf666 "While the people of the federation sleep in their comfy beds, there are tough, unshaven operatives doing abominable things in the shadows, just to allow those people to sleep peacefully." And yet there are also clean-shaven, tough operatives doing honorable things in the light, who are just as important to preserving the UFP. Let's not discount them, either.

[@studinthemaking]

Is that cannon or just un cannon background info?

[@kevlonk]

I love the shots at the end where they both put their badges back on, and the way Bashir hesitates and then declines to put on his-- almost as though he's looking at Starfleet in a different light now.

[@aurorapaisley7453]

Damn, that symbolism..

[@Andy-qn5xi]

I remember thinking he was just going to leave his badge there as a middle finger to Ross.

[@NeoDragonKnight]

Ties in with the way he took it off too, Ross places it on the table, Bashir tosses it an on the table almost in anger due to his disillusionment with Starfleet.

[@Trektech1980]

Brilliant

[@bobblum5973]

Like he almost decided to leave it there, or Slam it down on the table.

[@SheldonAdama17]

DS9: Has complex, substantial discussions on the merits of S31 and the broader themes. Discovery: wE dO wHaT wE dO sO yOu dO wHaT yOu dO LOL

[@OhNoTheFace]

"It's easy to be a saint in paradise"

[@SirZapdos]

Bill Ross was one of the better Starfleet characters to come out of DS9. Just six words. The way he says "I hope not." and "No she wasn't." is just extraordinary. This scene is one of the best DS9 scenes ever.

[@Kilaknux]

I wish all the Admirals had been written like him. Him and that one hardass Russian Admiral were great higher ups to have as characters, although Ross more so.

[@davidtyler6708]

R.I.P,Lt. Lieu Murtaugh (Family Matters)

[@vguyver2]

@@Kilaknux I agree. He's the only one that wasn't either insane, greedy, moraless, or power hungry. Instead he's just a good but flawed man trying to do the best of the worst situation on his hands. He's the BEST Admiral Starfleet ever had. I shudder to think that Janeway may have replaced him

[@flankspeed]

I like that DS9 had a story so far-reaching in scope that there were no easy answers. You could go either way on this particular exchange. For me, it's still the best Star Trek series for precisely that reason.

[@hansellius]

I agree totally about Admiral Ross. And I've said before, but his line delivery in this is just utterly amazing. As you said, the bit where he's talking about Senator Creetak's fate is stunning. "Dismissed from the Senate, definitely. Imprisoned, mostly likely" and he says it straight. But then Bashir pushes just a little further, and that tiny voice is so full of shame. "Executed?" "I hope not". This is one of my favourite scenes in all of Star Trek. Amazing episode all around.

[@Thor13332]

DS9 is a damned good show.

[@gorchcleave5393]

105 hour movie

[@jameskennedy8030]

Second only to TOS

[@k1productions87]

It makes Voyager all the more disappointing. We can forgive TNG for its episodic nature, as that was the nature of TV at the time. But with not only DS9 as an example, but Babylon 5 and Stargate SG-1, there was no reason at all for Voyager to revert to "bad guy/anomaly of the week" syndrome. A premise that BEGGED for serialization, only to try desperately to be TNG-lite. So disappointing.

[@JanoyCresvaZero]

The best Trek of them all!

[@darthvader5300]

@@JanoyCresvaZero Section 31 is Star Trek's version of America's BLACK OPERATIONS which is not supposed to exist but it does exist and is secretly funded and supported with all the money and logistics it needs. No Presidential notification and just kept in the dark, no congressional approvals , no senatorial oversight. JUST GET THE JOB DONE! COG will ensure that no matter what happens today, the NSA's and CIA's BLACK OPERATIONS department will continue in perpetuity.

[@Wizkid490]

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask their ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer." -Javik, Mass Effect 3

[@WNShadow814]

End of argument right there

[@Whatatwist2009]

Damn Slam regardless of how one feels about Mass Effect 3 it does not take away how powerful the quote was. It applys very well for the some of the federations actions in the dominion war.

[@captainpike332]

The ending was the disgrace and doesn't take away from the quote.

[@jasonsylvander3089]

Great quote

[@cheeseguy3412]

Only the ending, really. The gameplay / story was pretty cool, although the abrupt abandonment of the original storyline was a bit jarring.

[@chuckfinley4258]

“Honor is a fool’s prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.” -Darth Bane

[@DanielSan1776]

Right before he curb stomps a Sith Warrior’s head

[@jimslancio]

General William T. Sherman once said words to the effect of "Glory is being killed in battle and then having your name spelled wrong in the newspapers."

[@danieldickson8591]

And yet we remember his name. We honor his accomplishments. Great deeds from people of the past inspire us to strive for greatness ourselves. While those who lived without honor are remembered as object lessons of what not to do or be.

[@EasterTurkey]

@@danieldickson8591 A common misconception that ignores the fact that the victors write history.

[@SolarDragon007]

I love the Darth Bane novels.

[@GooglyEyedJoe]

RIP Barry Jenner aka Admiral Ross.

[@studinthemaking]

Did section 31 ice him??

[@tomt.8387]

The actor died

[@brohan914]

Damn, rest easy sir.

[@shawnlion8181]

Lt. Lieu Murtaugh from "Family Matters" passed away? RIP.

[@mcrazor78]

I had no idea. RIP.

[@The1baddman]

Rest In Peace Barry Jenner (Admiral William Ross).

[@hdhale2]

Everyone loves the sausage until they find out how it was made. Bashir found out how the Federation was made.

My girlfriend found out how the sausage was made moments after I showed it to her for the first time, and she still likes it?

[@excelents]

Is that a line from "The Orville"

[@adoniswarchild144]

Blah b LOL

[@paladinboyd1228]

hdhale2, One snag with that is. I make them in my spare time. But yeah the cheap ones are disturbing.

[@mad7206]

hdhale2 what a brilliant quote

[@danieldickson8591]

It's unfair to characterize Bashir as "naive" here, as many people have. In this scene he shows he's anything but. He understands exactly what happened, exactly what the motivations of the players were, precisely what rationalizations they use to justify their actions. He simply doesn't agree with them. Clearly Bashir subscribes to the principle that if you stoop to the tactics and ethics of your enemy, you become your enemy; in which case you've already lost the war, however the battle turns out. You know how the Federation could have saved countless lives? By surrendering to the Dominion from the start. But then they'd have to give up the way of life they believe in, for themselves and their descendants. Some principles are worth fighting for, and dying for.

[@TheRealCaptainJamesTKirk]

Yeah, living those principles are great when everybody's dead.

[@subraxas]

Shut up, Kirk!

[@jcaliberty8288]

@@TheRealCaptainJamesTKirk "I'd rather die on my feet than live a lifetime on my knees" Emiliano Zapata

[@songyani3992]

@@TheRealCaptainJamesTKirk Then you Americans should have surrendered the first thing after Japanese bombed pearl harbor

[@vaskylark]

Bashir is an idealist who wants everything to be perfect and nice but Sloan put it best when he said that the Federation needs idealistic men like Bashir, principled men like him but that is the very reason men like Sloan must exist, in order to protect the very idealism that principled men like Bashir find so appealing and need.

[@Da40kOrks]

I love the part where he goes "ceasar can do no wrong!" No music, no backgroud sounds. Just Bashir.

[@LordZontar]

Alexander Siddig's Shakesperean stage training was showing there.

[@KiwiKugai]

And the sad fact is, they're both right in principle.

[@shermanlee4037]

They're both right in practice, too. There simply _isn't_ a good answer.

[@talos2384]

Sometimes to make an omelette you need zip tie a few eggs

[@shermanlee4037]

@@talos2384 0f course that statement is usually quoted to defend something indefensible, too. It matters a lot what eggs, how many eggs, how broke is broken, and what is the omelet for.

[@deathbykonami5487]

True but morality and ethics don't mean a damn thing when you're swimming in a sea of the bodies of ones you used to consider your family and your friends. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Cicero's words are truer in this sense, in times of war the law means dick and in order to minimize the potential casualties and bring an end to the fighting, one must do what must be done, ethics and morality be damned.

[@shermanlee4037]

@@deathbykonami5487 A better way to look at it is that what is truly moral depends on the exact situation. For ex, standing up for a persecuted person is good...but if doing so puts your own family in immediate danger, it could actually become immoral. Max Weber pointed out this principle a long time ago, it's morally imperative to consider what the actual _result_ of an action or lack of action will most likely be, not just what it _should_ be. Lying is usually wrong...but telling the SS where the Frank family is hiding is also wrong, so in that case lying can be _right_ .

[@SuperSaiyanAl]

Rest in peace, Barry Jenner. Fantastic performance in this scene, in this episode.

[@keitht24]

Oh shit, I didn't know he was dead.

[@emdee7744]

I really liked Admiral Ross. I thought his portrayal was realistic.

[@TerrelLism]

This is one of the reasons why DS9 is now my favorite of all time. Character driven stories mixed in with war time just makes epic TV!

[@jamesdavis1201]

Well said!

[@mrspidey80]

It's so strange seeing DS9 people on the set of Voyager.

[@cjinx6083]

Well, Admiral Ross's ship is the Intrepid-class USS Bellerophon. It makes sense that they would use sets from Voyager (they even used stock footage from Voyager).

[@Howyaduing]

+C Jinx both makes sense since they exist in the same universe and economical for the crew sent to be a lot cheaper than making a brand new ship from scratch

[@swishfish8858]

C Jinx - I think it goes deeper, like they probably wrote it that way specifically to avoid building sets. This was the last episode before the big ten-episode series finale, no point in making a new ship when you have another one fully detailed already.

[@AndrewChapman]

Just as it was weird seeing TNG people on DS9 in the TNG episode "Birthright, Part I" (a time before Worf joined the DS9 crew).

[@andrewxu3602]

@@AndrewChapman Yes, but that was the same location in-universe.

[@gaoutlaw]

A lot of way old school Trek fans hated the notion that something like Section 31 would exist in Roddenberry's world. But really, it would have to. Why is Earth a paradise in the 24th century? Because someone is behind the scenes, doing what no one ever suspects would be getting done.

[@GooglyEyedJoe]

IronDawg As Sloan said "The Federation needs men like you, doctor. Men of conscience. Men of principle. Men who can sleep at night... You're also the reason Section Thirty-One exists -- someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong." - That's the thing that annoyed me about the "Doctor" attitude in Star Trek like Dr McCoys objections in "A Private Little War" or the crews view on not planting a virus in Toby during "I, Borg" that could have saved millions of lives or Bashir's objections to Section 31 keeping Federation citizens safe by doing the dirty work or how he wanted to surrender to the Dominion to "save lives" yet at the same time enslave the population for centuries to come, most of the Starfleet Doctor mentality in Star Trek is as Garek says "The eternal optimist, How sad. I must tell you, I'm disappointed at hearing you mouth the usual platitudes of peace and friendship regarding an implacable foe like the Romulans. But, I live in hope that one day, you'll come to see this universe for what it truly is, rather than what you'd wish it to be." It may be dark but that's why I liked Deep Space Nine, even in an ideal future there will be bad situations.

[@fremenchips]

GooglyEyed Joe But that's where the drama comes from. People who put conscience before reason may be wrong but then again when do we slip from being like Sloan and Ross into being like Gowron when conscience has no place in politics. The drama lies in the fact that the balance between the two is never perfect, but always shifts. An excellent look at this dilemma in the real world is "The Fog of War" in which former Secretary of Defense, during Vietnam, Robert McNamara says that if the US lost WWII our actions in firebombing Germany and Japan would be prosecuted as war crimes. This leaves the moral dilemma in the viewers hands, do the ends justify the means, and what makes DS9 so good is that it doesn't have a Roddenberry mouthpiece (like Kirk or season 1 Picard) screaming at you yes or no.

[@KristerAndersson-nc8zo]

fremenchips I have to agree, was admiral Cartwright really wrong in star trek 6?

[@hckyplyr9285]

fremenchips Your comment is fair and certainly points to why Behr included these kinds of moral conundrums in the best ST story arc ever, but I still think in this case the desire to create drama departed from what was reasonable......in a fantastic 24th century universe! I'd be a bit careful with McNamara, however, the man (God rest his soul) was a snake oil salesman and utterly out of his depth as SECDEF. He gave up on Vietnam by April 1965 but continued to recommend escalation for want of a better idea. He played a major role in a helluva lot of good men getting killed to no good reason, as his own doubts helped undermine whatever chance of success the US had in that conflictm His surmise regarding US guilt for war crimes in WWII was probably valid but there wasn't a single major combatant nation in that hellish conflict about which the same could not be said, excepting perhaps the Kuomintang.

[@OpenMawProductions]

hckyplyr9285 People often forget why Vietnam happened in the first place, and it is within the very premise of the war that things went so horribly wrong. That, coupled with politicians running the war over the military commanders, and some of the most insane rules of engagement and modus operendi in the field, there was no hope of winning. Fighting ideas and ideals with bodies isn't going to work. That's what Vietnam was all about, stalling up Communism.

[@summers1]

TNG showed me humanity at its best that it would be hard but attainable. DS9 showed me that even at our best we’re still only human with all the flaws that entails

[@Andy-qn5xi]

That’s why I’ve always said that neither Picard or Sisko are better than the other; they’re just opposite sides of the same coin. Picard is the leader you need in peace time, the purest of diplomats if you will. By contrast, Sisko is the leader you need in wartime, a leader who is willing to do whatever it takes to win. And yes, Picard was no pushover (“you may test that assumption at your earliest convenience”), but even Picard would never have poisoned an entire planet with Trilithium Resin just to get one man, nor would he have ever allowed himself to “[lie]. [To bribe people] to cover up the crimes of other men. [To be] an accessory to m**der.” Sisko could live with himself. I’m not sure that Picard could so readily.

[@SaltpeterTaffy]

@@Andy-qn5xi I think the real takeaway from all of this is that both are better than Kirk. :D

[@danieldickson8591]

@@Andy-qn5xi Sisko had a lot of trouble living with himself. He forced himself to because he felt he had to.

[@danieldickson8591]

@@SaltpeterTaffy Kirk was the Captain the Federation needed back then. A "cowboy diplomat" as Picard once put it. The galaxy was more unknown and less settled then, and needed someone who could write the rules when new situations arose.

[@scottyunitedboy2925]

I used to find Bashir, in the first few seasons of DS9, a hugely irritating know-it-all who mainly seemed obsessed with skirt chasing. It's a testament to the writing, producing and Siddig El-Fadil's acting that by the end of DS9's run, he was able to command a presence in scenes like this. Kudos also to Barry Jenner as Admiral Ross, one of the few admirals in the whole franchise that was developed properly as a character and not just either a stuffy beauracrat or a loon.

[@LamontWilliams-czarphaet]

It was the early seasons, they were still finding their footing as a show

[@rhas356]

@@LamontWilliams-czarphaet Also, Bashir is a mid-twenty something in his first position, not in war. That behaviour is hardly unexpected in that circumstance. Whereas both aging, outing, and a war all contribute to rapid maturity.

[@Aitherion]

Ron Moore joining the team saved this show's writing, but the acting was always top-notch.

[@paladinboyd1228]

I always love that even with his early attitude he would stop at nothing to help someone as a Doctor, he beamed straight into the house of the leader of one of the most terrifying intelligent agencies just to ask for information to save his patient's life. And it never crossed his mind that doing this might get him killed he just went for it as he is a doctor and he is helping someone.

[@DarkNova50]

Scenes like this are why DS9 is so compelling, and its characters so interesting. In TNG any admiral who lied like Ross did would automatically be the villain and get a Picard speech. Ross, on the other hand? Sure he played dirty, but he may have helped to save the Federation by doing it. Bashir is the sort of person who makes the Federation the "bubbly, insidious" paradise most people see, but if he ran it he'd run it straight into the ground.

[@lordvadertheleftie9703]

Excellent comment

[@shermanlee4037]

Not necessarily. If Bashir was running it, I suspect he'd find himself doing the same sort of messy gray-area stuff Sloane does. Maybe not as _much_ of it, I suspect Bashir is a little humbler than Sloane, not as sure he knows best. But it's a lot easier to know what you'd do if you in charge than it is to do it once you're actually in charge.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Ross is still a villain again i find that “i've sent young men and women to die, and i don't like that” bullshit to be tripe Nothing those assholes who send people to die and or to war say and or feel, if they actually do feel anything and is not some bullshit they’re pretending to feel for PR reasons is close too and or matters in comparison to what the people who go and experience war suffer. also again Ross showed that he didn’t even respect and or give a shit about them enough to tell them that the ideals they’re fighting for don't actually matter and or can be violated whenever it suits and or is arbitrarily justified for the occasion. Again by using section 31 who are not above killing and or harming federation citizens and or allies to achieve a victory he is literally proving that he’s perfectly willing to make sacrifices of any cost for the greater good. and the greatest good is always used by selfish, greedy, corrupt people to sacrifice others for their own gain and or to commit vast atrocities for some perceived purpose.

[@shermanlee4037]

@@mckenzie.latham91 So you're saying it's better to let the young people go off to die? If you don't like Ross' response, you are obligated to provide a better option.

[@ryanmartori2589]

@@shermanlee4037 You cant call yourself a good guy and do bad guy things -Terry Prachett DS9 needed a bit more prachett and a bit less asimov.

[@billnye69]

The writer who came up with the idea for section 31 said that he was inspired by Sicko's speech to Kira about how Earth is a paradise and it's easy to be a saint in paradise. He thought that in order for such a paradise to exist in the 24th century, there had to be someone behind the curtain doing the dirty work to protect paradise. Section 31 is born.

[@Fooq]

You calling Sisko 'Sicko' made me laugh out loud. xD

[@billnye69]

@@Fooq Autocorrect is heartless. Lol

[@joshuaweston6531]

I really like the idea of Section 31. Looking forward to the series!

[@Kiyosuki]

And it makes complete sense. I know the concept has always been a little divisive with some more purist fans who believe that the very presence of a covert, secret branch of Starfleet that does all the dirty work goes against Roddenberry's original vision and...to a certain extent it does, and I get it because Star Trek is supposed to be symbolic of a better future for humanity. At the same time though, the shadow of Section 31 I'd argue has been present all throughout Star Trek's history in the form of questions as to how things in this supposed utopic society work. It's the answer to a natural question any viewer would ask of Star Trek's very concept. And I don't think it necessarily erases or contradicts the "better future" outlook for humanity because the Federation does a lot of good, and humanity is clearly better off than in most looks to the future. It simply challenges the core concept of ST with a logical question and a nuanced idea, and to me even the best concepts need to be challenged a bit or what good are they?

[@DavidKnowles0]

@@joshuaweston6531 Unfortunately the Section 31 in Discovery and Picard is nowhere near as cool as it is in DS9.

[@seekthevisceral]

I truly love how much Bashir is Picard-ing the hell out of this scene. (The celebrity crush continues.....)

[@andrewmorales5485]

My favorite qoutes next to the line must be drawn here this far no further

[@GreatBigRanz]

This is what made DS9 soooo fucking good. It deals with the Grey areas that TNG only brushed over.

[@s3rp]

Indeed but when TNG was shot Roddenberry was still alive ( for the the majority of it as least ) and he would've never allowed the direction DS9 was going for in the later seasons. He hated Star Trek 6 because it didn't align with his vision for the utopia. He would've hated DS9 even more. Here even the heros are sometimes shady because thats just how the world works sadly.

[@mikahael1]

The Undiscovered Country is arguably the best out of the Star Trek movies.

[@Doogie769]

Not entirely how the world has to work.I know alot of people would make the comparisons of the politics with ours in the U.S. and that goverment secrets are all bad no matter what.Yea it's true secrets don't make friends how ever loose lips sink ships we don't really want to know the exact name of every agent that is currently on assignment and location.Yea we may have agents in Germany but was that agent really spying on Germany or was he actually there for something else because there has been alot of Sryian refugees going through.This is why Edward Snowden is a dirty shit rat because well thats not the only thing that a NSA intel agent would know about some counter terrorist countermeasure.If I were him I would bring up Secret Operations that weren't even finished yet as well and than people would call me a hero and I've just completely fooled the rest of everybody else as I sell intel to Russia.

[@willowfrog33]

yeah but not always very well this is a great example of that.

[@nagaking07]

What Bashir said is acknowledge arguably the biggest fault of the Federation: their complete and utter self-assurance that they are the perfect utopia, so nothing they do is ever wrong.

[@GermanLeftist]

@TurboCMinusMinus "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[@Donutgames00]

It was at the cost of ideals and the enemy, not the citizens of the federation, so the quote doesn’t work here.

[@Cyber_Elf_Elpizo]

Dukat, the evil parody of Kirk said it best: "I exist in a state of perfect clarity."

[@xSuperMetroidx]

@@GermanLeftist "If you kill your enemies, they win!" - Some ski instructor

[@shermanlee4037]

@@GermanLeftist Which is one of the most facile, useless things Franklin ever said. People trade liberty for security, and security for liberty, every day and every generation, back and forth, depending on the demands of the time. You can't avoid standing on the slippery slope, not and actually do anything, the trick is to avoid the steepest, slipperiest parts and watch your footing. But you _will_ make those trade offs, one way or another.

[@fremenchips]

Oh man if only Picard were here to deliver a 90 second speech to stop the war and show everyone the true light of Federation righteousness.

[@williamjameslehy1341]

+fremenchips The problem there would be that the entire crew of DS9 would all try to punch him unconscious at the same time.

[@gamesmaster35v2]

+maeon maeon I disagree by all indicators Bashir was right. Pretac would have more than likely pushed for a Romulan / Federation alliance. It was in the self interest of the Romulans to do so. Such trickery would only serve as a wedge to future negotiations and alliances if ever found out and got rid of a potential future ally from the political scene.

[@fremenchips]

gamesmaster35 A weakness in that argument is that the Dominion War had already been on going for more then a year and the Romulans were happy to sit back and watch. Romuluan interests in direct involvement would only have tipped when it became obvious that the Federation and Klingons were folding, as the longer the war stalemated the Klingons and Federation the better for the Romulans, and by then it would be too late.

[@gamesmaster35v2]

fremenchips From this episode we saw that the Romulans were highly in favor of a Romulan / Federation Alliance and by all likelihood Pretac would have been that voice to tip the scales in the Federation's favor. The Romulan's aren't fools as Sisko pointed out if the Romulans stayed out of the war and the Dominion took Federation and Klingon space instead of them facing 3 different enemies on each side of their space they would now be facing the same enemy on all sides. Effectively surrounded and ripe for Dominion conquest. The Romulans would see that just as well as the Federation could.

[@Hartzilla2007]

Plus I would think the Romulans are smart enough to realism that the Dominion is likely going to be holding a grudge with them at this point. I mean they helped blow up the planet the Founders lived on, and they turned the tide against the Dominion. They aren't walking away from that.

[@bigrigjoe5130]

I love Bashir. Most underrated Star Trek character ever Yeah he's full of himself and self-indulgent but he's so outwardly aware of it and prinicpled that he just wears it.

[@kxmode]

He's also the only human in Starfleet to hide his augmentations, be caught, and still be allowed to keep his commission.

[@ethan19942012]

I can’t stand how “principled” he is. Section 31 is extreme necessary, especially under these circumstances. In this fictional universe, they helped stop the war. Without giving that disease to Odo, they wouldn’t have surrendered.

[@vegetablearian_]

Ethan Gates nonsense, the only thing we can prove is that without people like Bashir who see S31 as wrong and needing to be stopped the Dominion wouldn’t have surrendered! We don’t know what would have happened if they hadn’t engineered the disease but we do know what would have happened if S31 had got their way and stopped Bashir from finding out, and finding and providing the cure: the changelings were going to take everyone else to hell with them.

[@galactic85]

I love Bashir too! One of my favorite Star Trek characters!

[@CoolDude-ts2hc]

@@ethan19942012 without Bashir's principles, Odo would have died. While sometimes you need to step over the line to do what's wrong to protect what's right, with no opposition, it's very easy to declare everything you're doing is just.

[@2Scribble]

You Either Die a Hero, or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become the Villain... or, in this case, become Rome I know everyone hates Bashir in this episode but - for myself - I find both him and Ross FASCINATING studies in characters. How righteous and morally incorruptible Bashir is - and just how utterly TIRED and worn and strained Ross is... it's no wonder everyone believed he had a brain aneurysm. Considering what he does on a daily basis - I'd have a brain aneurysm just looking at his calendar :P So many people SEE this episode (and so many DS9 episodes) and completely miss the point - 'Bashir is a Twat, the Federation is always right, HONOR!!!!!' - the point of the characters and this episode was to make you think. Bashir isn't wrong - but neither is Ross. It's a very grey story... and very fascinating at that. Do the ends justify the means? That's really what it comes down to - and a question like that... that's an immensely PERSONAL question. If you write it off as Bashir being a prick then you're missing SO MUCH. DS9 did a lot of things wrong - but what it did do right was make you think. Make you question. Such an underrated episode.

[@otiscarter1356]

As Sloan once said, "your enemy does not share your sense of decency, morality, and compassion. They want your total annihilation". Bashir is an overgrown child.

[@2Scribble]

once again - never said he wasn't. My point is that this isn't all grey here - yes, Bashir is being naive as hell... but Ross is being back-stabbing justification expert for Section 31. If you just write Julian off as being immature then you MISS part of the story - how can the Federation (founded on honesty, truth, democracy, freedom) function (never mind survive) if you desecrate the very things it's founded on? By the same token - how can it's people even HOPE for a future if the naievete of those beliefs are going to get them KILLED? It's an awesome quandary and, really, a very awesome examination into not just into world government - but in the human condition itself. -nod-

[@studinthemaking]

Bashir problem is the same that affect Khan people. Superior intelligence and physical abilities! Breed superior ambition. In bashir case. He has to hide it and that makes him angry! He could lead them all and be the best and solve all the problems of galaxy. Just like him and the other advances models tried to do during that one episode of DS9. Also he does not get laid enough. (I wonder if his man tool, was enhanced also) That makes him very cranky!!

[@AllknowingUnknown]

2Scribble Agreed 100 %. This and "In the Pale Moonlight" made me think long and hard about weather I would be capable of seeing things and acting from the perspective of each side morally and I gotta say.... I have NO FUCKING CLUE what I would do. yup got me thinking again.

[@BeleuchteteBrueder]

You are very right. If there were no people like Bashir and no concerns about the actions of the Admiral, Starfleet and Section 31, they would bit by bit care less about the moral implications of their decisions. Of course - at the end of the day they will have to make a hard decision. But Bashir is here to make sure that the desicion is hard - not easy. And Bashir is right. Unfortunately, so is Ross. But it is not Bashir who is naive. It is naive to write him off as such. It is short sighted to only look at it in terms of "What is the right thing to do - all things regarded". You also need to know that the right action is also the wrong action. And Bashir guarantees this. This is what makes the Federation good. And Ross would be right to adress and acknowledge this while still defending his point of view. Ben Sisko would.

[@saquist]

Ross: "I've spent the last year of my life order young men and young women to DIE. I like that even less" Bashir: "that's a glib answer." Remember this when you watch "In the Pale Moon Light and Sisko justifies killing a Romulan Senator Vreenak.

[@Jokie155]

Remember it when there was a way to save over half those young men and women, and Picard decided relocating 600 hypocritical space elves to do so was unacceptable...

[@vegetablearian_]

Jokie155 Picard was right and so was Bashir. How could you think otherwise?

[@GooglyEyedJoe]

@@vegetablearian_ Bashir wasn't right though, Section 31's virus infecting the Great Link was one of the major factors in bringing an end to the war and the defeat of the Dominion, if Bashir had his way he'd have dismantled Section 31 and surrendered when his little genetically engineered buddies advocating giving up to 'save lives'.

[@danlorett2184]

@@vegetablearian_ Because the Dominion didn't conquer the Alpha quadrant? The Morphogenic virus was literally one of the biggest factors that forced the Dominion to end the war, free Cardassia and the other worlds they took. Cicero wasn't wrong.

[@ambermcjack8406]

In that episode , bashir was upset trusting Sisko with bio gel ! Can you imagine if he’d found out how the romulans entered the war! No more lunches with garak and he would ask Sisko for a transfer lol

[@CoolsBreeze]

Such an amazing scene.

[@LordZontar]

"Admiral, where's Sloan?" Translation: "Don't insult my intelligence."

[@nelumbonucifera7537]

"Inter arma enim silent leges" is Cicero defending someone who murdered his political rival in the street. This kind of logic escalates - and it's what destroyed the Roman Republic.

[@xSuperMetroidx]

Actually, the Roman Republic was destroyed when its military, government and financial systems were subverted by hostile foreign influences.

[@nelumbonucifera7537]

@@xSuperMetroidx No. The Republic fell due to escalating competition between aristocratic factions for wealth and power, destabilizing the political order. This led to the civil wars - Marius and Sulla, Pompey and Caesar, Antony and Octavian - that normalized dictatorship and other emergency measures (eg. proscription) and erased rule of law . There were certainly contributory factors - eg. Rome's conquest and territorial expansion created a shift to plantation slave-based wealth for elites, leading to wealth inequality and unrest that was capitalised on by populist demogogues.

[@xSuperMetroidx]

@@nelumbonucifera7537 Ah yes, a very particular reading of history. It can be whatever you want it to be as long as it supports your political agenda.

[@nelumbonucifera7537]

​@@xSuperMetroidx I see you're not interested in substantiating your argument, just facile trolling. Bye, then.

[@SylvanApe]

@@xSuperMetroidx "Ah yes, a very particular reading of history." Says the man with the one line, absolute statement. The Republic was destroyed with the rise of the dictatorial god emperors. The tyranny fell because the people didn't love it anymore.

[@rhysfrechette7739]

I'm starting to think the Maquis had the right idea by disavowing the Federation.

[@SaltpeterTaffy]

The Maquis rebellion got squashed by the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. They may all be dead or enslaved now minus the Maquis in Federation space and those aboard Voyager.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

@@SaltpeterTaffy well no doubt to that but the idea of their separatism is what counts. Although i'm certain the true position of the maquis will be censored and rewritten by the Federation to make them nothing more than blood thirsty, treacherous, terrorists.

[@SaltpeterTaffy]

@@oldtwinsna8347 I can't imagine the Federation(at least the TNG canon Federation) would be so devoid of sympathy. At the very least, we get to see what really happened in the show. If DS9 were anti-Maquis propaganda, it wouldn't have presented their case as even-handedly as it did. Contrast Star Wars, which is flagrant pro-Jedi propaganda.

[@Intreductor]

Not the reason the Maquis wanted to leave. Remember when Eddington compared the Federation to the Borg? That's the nail right there.

[@smartalec2001]

@@Intreductor The issue with the Maquis is that by staying put and refusing to resettle elsewhere, and using force, they endangered a treaty that kept a lot of other people out of danger. If they'd sparked off a war, it would have hurt a lot of other people who would have preferred not to be hurt. Again, like this, it was at least a two-sided issue. Eddington's bitterness that likens the Federation to the Borg is just that, a bitter comparison. The Federation's a co-operative, not a collective. They saw the overall picture, and thought that resettling some people peacefully was better than continuing the war, and they hoped the people being resettled would understand that. The Maquis didn't want to co-operate; they felt the cost they had to bear personally to keep others safe was too high. Again, both have a point.

[@junheceta268]

This is why DS9 is my favorite series in the Trek Universe. Its dark overtones, political intrigue, and atmosphere of cynical treachery constitute a complete repudiation of Roddenberry's naive, nauseating, utopian fantasy of the future. Long live DS9.

[@emperorremus8409]

*_When I was a kid, I had no idea what was going on and this scene almost put me to sleep..._* *_Man how that has changed since then..._*

[@RockinRhinox]

Between this and "In the Pale Moonlight" they did a lot to not only bring the Romulans into the war but to also keep them in it. Also, nice redressing of the Voyager meeting room set.

[@saber26ful]

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[@phoboskittym8500]

It was all worth it...

[@mrdenson3101]

As Section 31’s Sloan said: ‘Doctor, you need people like us to protect people like you’.

[@AndrewChapman]

I love how the USS Bellerophon is an Intrepid-class starship just like Voyager as it meant using the VOY sets for this ship. This means Bashir has been on TNG sets as he appeared in the TNG episode "Birthright, Part I", DS9 sets (obviously) and VOY sets (even though this is a DS9 episode).

[@hansellius]

Think about Jonathan Frakes as Riker. He's on TNG (obviously), DS9's Defiant (as Thomas Riker), Voyager (in the Q suicide episode), and ENT in the finale. He got on all of them but TOS.

[@AndrewChapman]

@@hansellius What about DSC? I haven't seen that or PIC, but I know he's been in the latter.

[@hansellius]

@@AndrewChapman Slightly controversial, but I personally don't regard DIS or PIC as real Star Trek. In my head, they're alternate universes. (I also don't like them, but that's another story.) To answer your question though - I haven't seen PIC, but I know he's in it. I don't think he's in DIS. So if you count those two, then he's in 5/7 of the shows (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, PIC) as far as I know. (And not in TOS or DIS).

[@AndrewChapman]

@@hansellius Ah okay.

[@baconking9139]

I want to see a Section 31...(Star Trek: Legion) TV series...to show the depths at which they go through to protect the federation

[@shadowalk]

I think we're getting it although it's in the Discovery timeline starring Georgiou.

[@jackvearncombe9892]

@@shadowalk yeah we are getting one, with Georgiou and Ash Tyler/Voq. I assume it will be called Star Trek: Section 31 or just Section 31, the latter sounds nicer but the former makes it easier for the viewer to know what they are watching. Can't wait, hope it stays in the shadows more like the Section 31 we see in ds9 and to some extent Enterprise, compared to the section 31 we see in Discovery where even ensigns know about them.

[@k.t.1641]

You guys are going to be disappointed. Since when has Star Trek has well written shows like ds9.......?

[@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942]

I would like one too, but this day and age, they'd probably villainize Section 31.

[@Rashaed]

RIP Admiral Ross (Barry Jenner)...

[@SabbyGuy09]

Now go watch the end of "In the Pale Moonlight"

[@1993bahamut]

It's a fake!!

[@musicmanfelipe]

Alexander Siddig definitely got some of his acting chops from his uncle.

[@vincentadultman8527]

I always loved Bashir, and never got the antipathy towards him. Having watched DS9 probably 10 times through, I still find myself gravitating to Bashir episodes; I find him eminently likable.

[@Solitaire001]

I think he was intended to be unlikable at the beginning, then develop as a character as the series progressed. Finding out that he was genetically modified puts a different spin on his early appearances.

[@jimslancio]

Bashir was the archetypical "tenderfoot," like James Stewart at the beginning of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence. The scene in the series pilot, between him and Major Kira in the infirmary, was a great "Wagon Train To The Stars" moment.

[@makara4615]

These scenes are what made Star Trek, specifically DS9, so great. Look at these men's motivations. Both are, arguably, good. They want the best for the people serving in Starfleet, probably for everyone. However, they have different ideas about how to get there. Bashir thinks that in times on hardship, you should not abandon your values, while Ross sees it as a necessary evil to save the lives under his command(so did Sisko, though he needed to be pushed by Garak). Story's like this are often difficult to tell, but they are realistic depictions of a lot of conflicts, especially these days. People see a problem, but they have different solutions.

[@swishfish8858]

I love a question without an easy answer. It puts brains into maximum gear and gets people interacting. Like here, who really is right? Is it the illegally-modified doctor pushing for morality and honour during the darkest period of modern galactic history, or is it the Federation admiral sacrificing his personal ideals in an effort to end that dark period as quickly and cleanly as mortally possible? That's all up to the viewer. I'd personally be in the admiral's court, because I believe that there are a variety of cases in which the ends certainly do justify the means. Bashir has too much invested in morality, which unfortunately won't destroy any Jem'Hadar ships. That isn't to say that he's wrong, since he's more specifically talking about the fact that the Romulan ally was killed, a character that hardly deserved to die nor was she as big a threat as to have needed to die. I just don't agree with the majority of his points.

[@voluntarism335]

the federation would of lost the war if people like Bashir were in charge

[@makara4615]

ReviewXPOSEDUSA Well, some people rather fail the right way then win the wrong way, losing themselves in the process.

[@voluntarism335]

Makara the cost of losing is too damn high, its a war there is no right or wrong way to win, u do what u must to win

[@makara4615]

ReviewXPOSEDUSA The question is what is more important to a person. To win (Ross) or to stay true to ones beliefs (Bashier). Both are valid views, which is why this is a great plot.

[@kenethhallum3566]

anyone else notice that this was filmed on the Voyager set, the bridge is seen in through the doors and it's the briefing room with a different table.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

they were onboard an intrepid class ship

[@abedfo88]

the Bellerophon was a Intrepid class ship (conveniently)

[@shadowalk]

My all-time favorite scene in DS9! I love the dark and compelling nature of this episode which also explains a lot about Section 31. I hate what Discovery has done with them in that they're just like another antagonistic organisation with ships and such. The Disc Section 31 didn't have the covertness nor the flare of the DS9 Section 31.

[@kellyrayburn4093]

Section 31 and what they do is abhorrent to the Federation. But without them, the Federation would fall. I wouldn't say "In time of war the law falls silent." I would say "In time of war the law excuses many things." It's unfortunate, but true. Having to order young men and women to die would be a hard and terrible thing. And I could see such a one resorting to trying to turn a less threatening enemy against itself or to manipulating such an enemy into an alliance to try to end such.

[@toddkes5890]

+Kelly Rayburn Plus by keeping the Romulans in the war it effectively freed up 2 Federation fleets, and forces the Dominion to divert other fleets. The first Federation fleet freed up is the one watching the Romulans. You don't need as many now, since they are currently on the same side as the Federation/ The second Federation fleet freed up is the one that was trying to intercept Dominion forces that transited Romulan space to hit Federation targets. Some of this might have been shared with the fleet facing the Romulans, but more would have been needed. And finally, the Dominion now has to put a larger fleet on the border with the Romulans, because those Warbirds when doing a properly planned decloak-strike attack are dangerous.

[@kellyrayburn4093]

Todd Kes Brilliant tactical analysis. And absolutely correct. Without the Romulans, the Federation's chances were, at best, not good. At worst, very very slim. This actually tipped the balance to give the races of the Alpha and Beta quadrants a fighting chance.

[@TheRealCaptainJamesTKirk]

@@toddkes5890 Not to mention that the Romulans genuinely believed the Dominion had betrayed them. There was no doubt a good number of them desiring to see the Dominion destroyed no matter the cost, knowing the Klingons were devastated and the Federation wasn't particularly aggressive. Along with a chance to take a significant chunk of Cardassian territory. Plus, those extra fleets meant the Federation could fight a total war, taking the fight to the enemy, in their house, while also rebuilding lost strength behind their own lines as the Dominion's ability to carry out offensive operations had been drastically reduced, if not eliminated. They didn't have to sit in a defensive posture waiting for inevitable defeat. Sisko outlined the plan of destroying the Dominion's ability to make war when beginning the invasion.

[@chuckfinley4258]

You weaken yourself believing that morality is important to you.

[@TheSuperRatt]

Section 31 is the Federation's greatest threat. Should the people learn of its existence, then everything they stand for, all the people who have fought and died for the virtues and principles of the Federation... It will all have been for nothing. A lie. There would be a very real threat of officers like Picard, the backbone of Starfleet, defecting. No doubt the Vulcans would secede, among many others. It will be the end of the UFP.

[@WillRennar]

So nice to see that, 350 years later, government hasn't changed a damn bit.

[@1993bahamut]

Meh...depends on your country. Pretty sure they didn't have a Boris

[@Da40kOrks]

That's because government is inherently immoral.

[@shermanlee4037]

In order for politics to fundamentally change, people in general would have to fundamentally change, which is probably impossible (bar massive genetic engineering or something to turn humans into an entirely different creature...which would likely end in a different kind of disaster).

[@Cd5ssmffan]

@@Da40kOrks this is your brain on utopianism

[@LokiDaHyena0427]

This is Trek at its finest: televised space theater

[@tompinkerton8099]

Deep Space Nine was such a brilliantly written show. Also, this episode was a very nice re-use of the standing sets from Voyager.

[@Avatarbee]

"You're dismissed" Starfleet speak for "Get the fuck out."

[@NathanJosephCole]

RIP Barry Jenner

[@snakeguy8646]

Honestly it's interesting hearing Siddig talk reference Rome, since he played Hannibal in a film about Hannibal during the 2nd Punic War, the movie wasn't the absolute best but it was pretty good, Siddig did a good job as an actor as can be expected.

[@bencebotye3904]

Siddig is a damn underrated actor, it's a miracle to me how his clean resume has to play 3rd level roles and cameos. Sidenote, it a Shame from D&D and the Game of Thrones crew to write out his character, and Doran Martell from the books is a damn phasinating role! Pure crime!

[@piotrd.4850]

THat was great production, btw: frankly I saw it BEFORE watching DS9 and saw Hannibal through... what, half of this.

[@ozziemederos]

Rest in peace Admiral Ross may he live long and prosper

[@MRFlackAttack1]

A 24th century Rome? Anyone else chuckled at the irony of that line?

[@maxpower2511]

This was such a great episode. Even with the war going on, they still find time to put in some great writing that pushed the story forward

[@glamourweaver]

I’m legit convinced the original concept for this episode was Julian finding out about Pale Moonlight, but they replaced Sisko with Ross and had a similar plot to manipulate the Romulans because they felt they wouldn’t be able to walk back Sisko and Julian’s relationship if they dropped that shoe.

[@CoolsBreeze]

This is why ds9 is amazing. It had amazing actors with awesome storylines.

[@SecondQuantisation]

I know Section 31 goes against Roddenberry's vision for an almost utopic future but it is such an obviously essential part of a REAL future it doesn't break the universe, it cements it as grounded, a realistic aspect of life where, even if humans have sorted out their differences, there are still threats. DS9 turns a spot light onto Roddenberry's dream and said "But can it be real?". The answer is "yes but with the good comes the bad". Hopefully one day we can become a "post scarcity society" where our basic needs are easily met, everyone everywhere, but there will always be threats, both foreign AND DOMESTIC. Why isn't more sci fi like this. Babylon 5 and DS9, with their wars, the impact of loss, the sacrifices, the "can the ends justify the means?".... it meant something. I feel sorry for kids growing up on Star Trek Discovery when I had the incredible good fortune to grow up on Babylon 5 and DS9.

[@compmanio36]

I was fine with Section 31 in DS9, because it was an organization that hides in the shadows and does "the hard things that must be done", and our heroes are incredulous about it. I wasn't find with it's portrayal in NuTrek because it's portrayed almost as our CIA is, with their own fleets and sanctioning of Starfleet Command in the open, and the disposal of any pretense that this is a rogue group of people. Classic Trek asks you questions, and leaves it up to you to find the answers for yourselves. Who was right? Who was wrong? We're not going to tell you. Because we don't know. NuTrek goes "This is right and you're wrong and if you point out how we're wrong for this position then we'll kill you off in a grotesque way on the show, or block you on Twitter, you fascist!" Adults vs children.

[@sephservant]

Ironically, this plot likely saved Cretak's life, as most of the Senate was murdered by Shinzon three years after this episode.

[@cipherthedemonlord8057]

I would work for Section 31.

[@DblOSmith]

I love how in the 24th century, you can "conveniently have an aneurysm." lol

[@peteroakley191]

I've always liked Ds9 of all the Star Trek series because of episodes like this. They showed that no man's land between idealism and realism. From Sisko's quote "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" from The Maquis episode to his usage of Garak in The Pale Moonlight episode to Quark lecturing Nog in The Siege of Ar-556 episode to this Bashir vs Ross. It showed that no matter how idealistic a society, there is always going to be some dirty work to get done to ensure its survival.

[@andrewpepper3145]

This is why we love DS9. Because it reminds us that even in a seemingly utopian society sooner or later some nasty stuff is going to have to be done by someone in order to keep the peace and protect as many of us as possible. The unofficial motto of the British security services I believe: "defend the status quo". No matter how grim a thing they have to do, if everything just carries on as normal and none of us notice then they've done their job

[@dswrabkln4900]

All well and good so long as that status quo actually benefits everybody, which it often doesn't. The Soviet Union's secret police similarly worked to maintain the status quo, no matter how many innocent people they crushed in the process. Sometimes the greatest threat to people is their own government, as many of the actions of the CIA attest to.

[@cbrogers4614]

This sounds like todays politicians with smoke and mirrors.

[@raymondstpaul4913]

I have to agree with the admiral. The federation was facing a foe that was deceptive an powerful. Yes Bashir was right about morals, but you can't have it both ways in a war with your back against the wall. He's naive to think you have to play nice with an potential enemy that could turn on you as no doubt the Romulans would've done siding with the Dominion. Sorry folks but I side with the admiral in this argument.

[@doublestrokeroll]

This was a great episode. They used the blue print of Pale Moonlight for this one, you can tell. Doesn't quite measure up to that episode in my opinion, but pretty damn good.

[@paulmccloud9395]

Without the likes of Garak, Ross, and even Sisko, who were willing to go to any lengths, the war would have been lost. I love DS9 because they showed some of the realities of war, good moral people, having to destroy who they believed they were, in order to win. It brought out some of the best writing in all of Trek.

[@voluntarism335]

exactly u cannot be a do gooder in war u have to do whatever it takes to win the war at any cost

[@swishfish8858]

Oh absolutely. In The Pale Moonlight is the most potent example of it. A Starfleet captain - the *main character of the series* - betraying his oath and beliefs for the good of the war and admitting that, quote, "he can live with it", is something you'd NEVER see in Roddenberry's Trek.

[@voluntarism335]

Michelle Lehto because Roddenberry lives in a fantasyland

[@Bootmahoy88]

This scene is exquisite, as it boils down the inherent paradox of 'protecting the Law of the Land by breaking the Law of the Land.' Secret service ops in reality frequently do this.

[@dswrabkln4900]

Often with horrific consequences which benefit nobody, such as the CIA's sponsorship of genocide in East Timor. The Stasi and Gestapo are equally fine examples of this mentality run amok. In the end, you risk losing your way of life to the enemy without a shot being fired.

[@davidtyler6708]

That's what I liked about DS9. Everybody get's to shine, even Nog. Poor Voyager.

[@oS2006DE]

I love how far Bashir had come by now. He was such naivete when it all started and now... He's actually speaking than same dear truth he holds to power. That look when he picks up his badge again. That fucking look! Go Siddig!!!

[@hudsonball4702]

Honestly and deceit are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

[@seanedwardfitz]

One of the reasons why DS9 was the best Trek ever.

[@Bazookatone1]

I genuinely love the bit where Bashir says "she was on our side" and the admiral says "No, she's a patriot". Because, whatever else, the admiral is RIGHT. Bashir isn't thinking about the long term consequences.

[@PoppaCYS]

Or maybe both were right for different reasons.... I could very easily see a scenario where if Picard was involved, most of the audience would side with Picard's typical solution in these circumstances (exposing lies and holding those involved accountable). If there's one thing I've learned is that people will always rationalize their unmoral, unethical behavior if they can claim it's for the greater good.

[@Trektech1980]

When people debate whether DS9 is the best Trek, just point them to this episode. Both actors killed this scene.

[@yusefendure]

Just found out about his death! Rest in Peace! Fine actor.

[@musagetes23]

I really wonder about the ADR-ing of Siddig at 2:55. It feels like he must have said 'you set her up!' too forcefully, and so they recorded a more mild reading in post. But why? Did they not want to show too much anger in a federation officer?

[@samgus1753]

I miss this show. Great writing and true Star Trek Canon

[@TaraZaraChara]

A Lieutenant questioning a Vice-Admiral’s judgement and calling him out for corruption. Bashir had some balls to do that.

[@brch2]

If it was on record, Ross would be screwed. Off record, the conversation officially never happened. Bashir was relatively safe either way, and knew Ross wouldn't retaliate against him.

[@shermanlee4037]

I think Ross had a lot of sympathy for Bashir, and a lot of respect.

[@rayloc420]

Julian never understood the nastinest of war. We can talk honor and glory, but bottom line, its very nature is ugly. Just win or the whole campaign was pointless.

[@JustSumGuy01]

Julian is the naive Federation Starfleet officer. Bright eye, with hope and ambitions to carry the dreams of the Federation forward but failed to see the realities of the universe. In order for Earth to be paradise, they need the snake

[@CacophonyOfDestruction]

Considering the Romulans were based on Ancient Rome the law falls silent in times of war Cisero comment was a nice added detail. Especially since Cisero was a patriotic senator just like that Romulan senator that section 31 played Bashir into setting up. I’m sure there is some deeper metaphorical meaning via Ancient Rome symbolism to this whole episode if you really went looking for it. The romulans have been loaded with Roman symbolism from the start. From Tomaluk saying he would put the broken hull of the enterprise on display to inspire future generations similar to Roman Triumphs in TNG to the final TNG movie with the Remens causing the fall of Romulus from the inside similar to the barbarians, vandals etc in actual history. The Cardassian - ww2 era Germany symbolism was a lot more obvious especially in DS9 along with the Star Trek 6 Klingon USSR reference with Praxis exploding being a play on Chernobyl. The Romulan Rome symbolism was far more understated but it was always there as far back as TOS episodes. I always noticed it but never looked too deep into the deeper symbolism that I’m sure was subtle sprinkled in the background. Now I’m kind of curious. I didn’t appreciate that added layer of symbolism in so many classic Trek episodes growing up. Let’s just say nowadays I’ve grown to appreciate it ALOT more.

[@dhinton1]

another episode of gray for DS9 ..... this series was crazy good in the back half.

[@shaftoe195]

USS Bellerophon uses decorations from ST:Voyager, which was being filmed at around the same time. This conversation takes part in slightly rearranged Capt. Janeway's office, and right next to it is the Voyager's bridge.

[@cameronchesters5300]

makes sense as the ship is part of the same class as Voyager

[@manny.otiko70]

I've watched DS9 three times. And I have sympathy for the Federation and what they did during the Dominion War. They were fighting a bloody war and losing, they did some nasty things to survive. But they survived.

[@tenkenroo]

And arguably if the roles were reversed the galaxy would be worse off. Weyoun wanted to genocide the entire earth population

[@Brian6587]

Admiral Ross was a pretty cool character I thought. Definitely one of the better Admirals in Starfleet!

[@laurenjcoates]

All the trekkies I know say DS9 is boring. I really don’t understand why - it’s my favorite of all the Trek series

[@AndrewChapman]

Bit of a confession, I actually used to find DS9 boring as a kid cuz it was set on a space station instead of a starship boldly going where no one has gone before. But as I got older, I watched it from a different perspective (later seasons) and actually enjoyed it better. I recently started watching the whole series from the first season and I'm currently at Season 3. And I like what I've seen so far. I still don't consider DS9 my favourite of all Trek series (that being TOS, which is why I love DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations"), but I definitely appreciate the show much better now than I used to. And I hope one day, they'll remaster it to HD for Blu-ray release.

[@marcziegenhain8420]

This is a great episode. Some of the Voyager sets (without Neelix's kitchen) used by the DS9 actors.

[@piotrd.4850]

XXIVth Century Rome - along with Eddington's rant on federation, one of few speaches that match up with best of what Picard has delivered.

[@wakipaki7381]

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” -George Orwell The intent behind Section 31 is something Starfleet desperately needs - whether they like it or not. As Sloan puts it, there needs to be men like him to keep the Federation safe and prospering long enough for the galaxy to be full of idealistic men like Bashir. Until then, they have a job to do. And then they just had to turn them into a cartoon shadow illuminati of bad guys instead of a debatable but indisputably effective evil.

[@HontasFarmer80]

When people say Discovery or Enterprise made S31 too visible to Star Fleet I mention this scene. Clearly admirals and fleet captains all know about it.

[@angmordagnithil7127]

Well, that's how black ops work. The leaders know about them, and the leaders give them their directives. But they don't _officially_ exist, so the leaders can easily deny any involvement and decry them as 'misguided patriots.' Odo even pretty much spells it out when he learns that Section 31 infected the Founders with a plague, and that the Federation decided not to give them the cure that Bashir developed for it. "Tidy little arrangement." However, black ops groups only work because they don't have uniforms, they don't have official records, and they absolutely do _not_ have shiny black badges to identify them. I don't personally get bent out of shape about it, given that STD really is its own universe. But their Section 31 is fundamentally different than what is depicted in DS9.

[@HontasFarmer80]

@@angmordagnithil7127 do you like it States of America has Black Ops groups we know they exist we just don't know what they're doing. The same for every other nation on Earth. They're usually in the military and they absolutely do have uniforms. I.e. The green men in Crimea known to be Russian troops. Delta force of the United States. MI6 and its paramilitary agents. Etc.

[@piotrd.4850]

Fleet captains do not, not as a rule. Also Ross might have been either operative or induced by other means.

[@HontasFarmer80]

@@piotrd.4850 IDK... arguably Sisko was operatively speaking a Fleet Captain. We saw him issue orders to his own divsion of the fleet in several battles and speak to General Martok and Admiral Ross as nearly equal. HE SEEMED TO NOT BE ALL THAT SURPRISED BY 31. I wonder if Admiral Forrest knew about them on ENT.

[@beltalowda1098]

I would'nt say clearly know about it. Theirs arguably only two people that we know for a fact of the command level that you describe that know about section 31 outside of dis. and ent. (sisko and ross). And also section 31 was always depicted as a autonomous group of federation citizens with no official standing, working completely in the shadows. While yes they did have backing from high up in starfleet command thats no indication of how well known they are amongst the whole of the starfleet leadership. I personally believe that discovery completely ruined the idea of section 31, enterprise not so much. Its conceviable for s31 to have a more prominent and open role during the formative years of starfleet due to the fact of them having been written into the original starfleet charter. While as discovery just dumbed them down into an equivalent of the examples yall gave, such as mi6 or delta squad. Starfleet already had the equivalent of black ops in starfleet intelligence, an example would be the undercover work that miles did for them with the orion syndicate. The idea of s31 was supposed to be that there was a group of federation citizens that were willing to commit crimes so egreagus and immoral that go against everything the institution they were fighting to protect stands for but they dont exist because if any of what they done gets out and can be linked to an official operation then it would destroy the federation. Besides sloan clearly said to bashir that there was no headquarters or library of s31 information collected anywhere. just a web if operatives working toward their goals or in sleeper mode until they are needed. So having a uniform and badges kinda defeats the very essence of what s31 was trying to portrayed as, not to mention it implies that their all in starfleet which as we can see on ds9 almost all feild operatives (on screen) werent even officers.

[@Wizardof]

This would be great for a Blu Ray sampler disk...That way they can test Voyager footage at the same time.

[@Howyaduing]

"There's a point, far out there when the structures fail you, and the rules aren't weapons anymore, they're... shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day... you may face such a moment of crisis. And in that moment, I hope you have a friend like I did, to plunge their hands into the filth so that you can keep yours clean!" -Commissioner James Gordon.

[@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942]

A BATMAN character said that? Wow.

[@x5992]

Back in the early 90s, before 1994, when DS9 just started, I went to an annual Trek convention in Hawaii where I lived at the time. One year I got to meet Quark, Kira, the next Bashir. Got his autograph before he changed his name from Siddig El Fadil to Alexander Siddig. I wish I held on to that. I think he's a great underrated actor.

[@IRMentat]

Blue balls bashir. Shrill as always. But a good scene. Computer, delete that entire conversation record.

[@jamesbuchanan4414]

Honestly, Admiral Ross is demonstrating an extension of a soldier's promise to the people he protects. He'll sacrifice himself, both his honor and his life, so others don't have to. It's a theme touched on elsewhere, one other strong example is the Operative from Serenity. Doing the necessary things to create a better world which will have no place for him, but he will go the distance to create that world, and will make those sacrifices because he believes the end is worth the price. Death before dishonor is a fine sentiment, but sometimes, as Sisko said, you can learn to live with it.