DS9 - Stephen McHattie as Senator Vreenak

From "In the Pale Moonlight", season 6 episode 19.

[@SheldonAdama17]

“Senator, I’d like you to meet my son.” “It’s a JAAAAAAAKE!”

[@josefwolanczyk4866]

“Senator, this is Garak, our resident tailor.” “IT’S A SNAAAAAAKE!”

[@Doncroft1]

"Senator, I'd like you to meet Jadzia Dax." "It's a WAAAAAAAKE!"

[@troyglan4082]

Consider that this episode had nearly no action scenes. No phaser blasts, no ship to ship combat. Yet somehow it is one of the most suspenseful episodes in Trek. Brilliant!

[@craigmartinj]

Yes, it is literally the BEST DS9 episode ever written. The script is flawless, acting... perfect.

[@Connection-Lost]

They needed to stay under budget, lol.

[@joachimschoder]

@@Connection-Lost Even if it was a bottle episode that doesn't take away the facts on how well it was written and executed. It added a lot of grey tones to DS9.

[@bjornjoseph]

Great dialogue and writing can carry a show/movie better than action. New trek vs old trek

[@Kosomaddo]

Yes exactly. The best episodes of Star Trek could be stage plays.

[@CaptPoco]

Vreenak sips the drink, humms with enjoyment at the flavor, and still disses it. It's clearly an amazing, painstaking replica, but he just can't resist insulting his hosts because of the smug, superior Romulan that he is. Incredible acting, writing, and episode.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

I wish Vreenak would *not* have realized it was fake so we could see him on Deep Space Nine for the rest of the series. Imagine him being a smug, superior Romulan but now having to play nice with the Federation and Kilngons? It's pretty amazing that a character who was on screen for fewer than ten minutes of a single episode of DS9 is more compelling than anyone we've seen in four years on Discovery.

[@donwon7592]

And yet. He lost.

[@jameskirk172]

@@BiggieTrismegistus Wait, Discovery was a TV show? Is how it will be remembered. So awful that it’s existence will be questioned by future generations.

[@Nexus9118]

So what happens when you tell a Romulan that they are simply incapable of being humble. Would their pride attempt to make them extremely humble? Like, see, I can be the most humblest people in the entire galaxy.

[@Connection-Lost]

@@jameskirk172 For a while I forgot there was discovery AND picard. They were both such obvious money grabs that I lost track.

[@BNRmatt]

Vreenak talking about the ale being an imitation is great foreshadowing for him being able to detect the forgery.

[@jakep1979]

"It's a FAAAAKee"😅

[@markmerzweiler4204]

"I'd want proof," as he is drinking an alcoholic beverage...the writer was on a roll that day!

[@pbdye1607]

It's synthahol, so he could drink gallons of the stuff and still never get drunk.

[@BlackangelKatakuri]

@@pbdye1607 Makes me wish that existed

[@danieldickson8591]

Vreenak keeps pointing out the difference between that simulated drink and the real thing -- subtle parallels to his larger discussion with Sisko.

[@Frenki94]

Love how he uses the drink as an analogy about temptation of joining the war when hearing captains arguments, against his stern refusal to do so. " For a moment there I almost forgot that it wasn't the real thing, but only for a moment."

[@kentcampbell122]

I also think there is some foreshadowing going on as well in regards to the fake data rod: “it really is a good replica”

[@Leisurelee53]

It's smoothe diplomatic dismissal. 'The points you raise are valid. But you're not being genuine in saying them.' Basically: "your booze and language are mid. Get to the point."

[@willzyx23]

​@@kentcampbell122I just realize that the very last scene we see him in is shouting "It's a FAKE!". Might as well be said in regards to the drink

[@Connection-Lost]

When he said "I'd want proof" he was telling Sisko he knew what Sisko would expect from him. If he didn't suspect a ploy right from the start, he would say something like "I assume you have some evidence?"

[@lamueldagon7618]

Stephen McHattie brought the weight this episode needed.Was a first class Romulan

[@bradyvelvet9432]

That Romulan has a majestic voice!

[@andromedazen]

It kind of reminds me of Jeremy Irons

[@joebob227]

It's no wonder Elaine couldn't break up with him!

[@VeritechGirl]

"I don't always drink Romulus ale. But when I do, I prefer Kali-fal" - - - the most interesting Romulan in the galaxy.

[@VHS_Vampire1988]

Veritech Girl Jolan tru, my friends.

[@Aaaa-dt4qg]

It seems like his opinion of the drink is a reflection of what he's thinking towards Sisko's proposal and arguments. I like that, good writing.

[@BenjaminSteber]

And furthermore it hints at the forged data rod. It too is a replicant and Vreenak may think it's real.

[@Leisurelee53]

It paints him as a very cynical and very shrewd politician, as he would have to be. And as was pointed out it absolutely signals that even given proof of this impending sneak attack, he was just as interested in knowing about it as being able to sniff out if it was.... A FAAAAAKEEEEE

[@Dabhach1]

Amazing performance. He was only on screen for three minutes in a seven year run and he's the one everyone remembers.

[@striker8961]

It was really was a damn good replica.

[@Connection-Lost]

I once named a beat in FL studio Vreenak.mp3

[@stocktonheath]

"It's a FAAAKKKEE!"

[@joetuktyyuktuk8635]

​@@striker8961Some serious foreshadowing going on there...

[@RandyMorris-wq7tr]

Outstanding performance. Peace

[@Archedgar]

Stephen McHattie was awesome as Senator Vreenak. He delivered his dialogue _so_ well, I almost sided with the Romulan Star Empire over the Federation in this one scene. He has some REALLY good arguments.

[@TeylenSun]

but the you would be a faaaaaaaaake

[@aurex8937]

Agreed. Amazing actor, perfect dialogue.

[@yaburu]

In my eyes he was being a little thick-headed. Sisko was completely right, instead of facing several opponents on all sides, none of whom are united and really working towards the same goal, you'll face one opponent, that has all the production resources of the many. It's ludicrous to think they'd have left the Romulans alone once they settled in their occupation of the Cardasians, Klingons, the Federation, and all the other loose ends.

[@JohnSmith-eh2xu]

I don't think the Romulans would be able to collapse the wormhole at this point, the DS9 crew attempted that but they were sabotaged and they ended up strengthening the wormhole instead of collapsing it. That's the reason why the Federation put the self-replicating mines there instead of collapsing the entire thing, they just weren't able to do that anymore.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

@The Program good point. finally someone who gets what the dialogue was about at the end !

[@CoolsBreeze]

The wit and the tactful conversation in this scene is off the charts!

[@jonothandoeser]

I find this better than a Picardian dialogue where Jean-Luc waxes eloquent about the lofty and enduring principles of the Federation in shakespearian fashion. This strikes home as more real t what would really happen.

[@danieldickson8591]

These are two men accustomed to dealing with powerful opponents for high stakes. The subtext of their civilized words is a struggle to win dominance for their positions.

[@danieldickson8591]

@@jonothandoeser Each approach has its place. Picard is who you choose to lead if you want to prevent a war. Sisko is who you choose if you want to win a war.

[@stevencohen624]

Stephen McHattie was great as the Romulan senator. He was so smug that you wanted to smack him. Avery Brooks, Andrew Robinson, and Stephen McHattie gave wonderful performances in this episode.

[@Citiprime]

The most chilling thing Vreenak says is when he mentions the Federation is having a “manpower shortage.” Think about that for a second. An interstellar government spanning thousands of light years, hundreds of worlds, and possibly trillions of citizens can’t field enough people to meet the threat they’re facing.

[@christopherdean1326]

That is always the problem with expanding empires. The more you have, the more men you need to defend it. If you have what you have through conquest, then a huge section of your manpower will be disposed to fight against you rather than with you..

[@dragonsword7370]

Training is the weakest element to have to overcome. It took many years to build up seasoned starfleet officers, trained non-coms to operate ships much less do so at war time. The klingons suffered the same issues for various reasons but also from attrition of earlier wars. The Civil War they had might still have been affecting their numbers and there was the obvious first victorious/then failed occupation and war with the cardassians. This war was with a Dominion that had war time supply shortages and they still nearly WON! Edit: the cruiser was the backbone of the feddie fleets. Those needed a minimum of 300 average across all ship types to operate in a war at the least manned, that includes the Galaxy classes such were being rushed out in a war configuration that left them hardly filled and refitted with more or better weapons, torpedo launchers and redundant shielding possibly with an ablative armor similar to the Defiant classes.

[@danieldickson8591]

@@dragonsword7370 OTOH the Jem'hadar could be reproduced in huge numbers, were born instinctively knowing how to fight, and matured incredibly fast. That's a resource none of the Dominion's opponents could match.

[@lawnmowermanTX]

As an expanding government, each star system can have trained defensive units. Make allies to help. If each star system objects to the Dominion the star system can assist and upgrade starships. Don’t waste resources, make do with what you have and think outside the box. But the story writers knew what was best. A Romulan Senator knowing your wife’s lover and how military stretched you really are; would make me poop my diapers lol.

[@ffnbbq]

​@@danieldickson8591Something DS9 (and later Star Trek Online) made clear is the Jem'Hadar are highly intelligent and inquisitive, but they were given no opportunity to grow beyond the role the Founders assigned to them. At least they were granted freedom decades later.

[@JamesCarmichael]

That dudes voice is outstanding. He should do audio books about how to make a tree house or something because then I might get motivated to do it.

[@danieldickson8591]

Cold, arrogant, but also thoughtful, disciplined and direct. The voice of a dangerous man.

[@chalino19]

great actor, great character!

[@juansantos-lq2kz]

Too bad Garak blew him up :(

[@Roboglenn387]

Great scene, great episode.

[@9and7]

Nuts how they wrote him off. Just plain idiocy.

[@mickmoron4455]

Scenes like this are why DS9 was leagues ahead of all the other Star Trek series in my opinion.

[@sonofcy]

Especially the modern iterations, it's based around good dialogue, screenplay and stories. Discovery is pretty vacuous is that department.

[@rebel107]

​@@sonofcyDiscovery is just a perpetual meme of 'Martin-Green' crying over and over.

[@mrmike9793]

"For a moment there I almost forgot it wasn't the real thing - but only for a moment" Or "For a moment your argument was starting to make sense to me, but only for a moment."

[@hisdudeness8328]

And for a moment, he thought Sisko was willing to do anything to bring the Romulan Empire into the war, but only for a moment. AND then he was space dust.

[@MedalionDS9]

Stephen McHattie... such a great actor throughout the 90's... saw him in so many shows I watched growing up... very good character to portray arrogant confidence, smugness, villainy

[@Dragonrose36]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my uncle while we were out at dinner one night. He had a drink that was the exact blue color of Romulan ale, and I brought it up. He said, "But I thought Romulan ale was green," and I said, "No, Aldebaran whiskey is green. Romulan ale is blue."

[@Andromeda4482]

Credit to the actor. But more importantly the writers. We don't have this level of writing in trek anymore. :(

[@TOYBOX2008]

This is because the writers of the past lived lives before they were writers. They were soldiers, engineers, cops, they traveled. etc. The coddled writers of today come straight out of university into the writers room. They know video games and more television, and good god does it show.

[@Archedgar]

@@TOYBOX2008 They don't know video games. Don't spew such nonsense.

[@delluminatis]

@@TOYBOX2008 Why not get same kinds of writers then? There are still soldiers, engineers, cops, travelers on planet, they could get some of those to write for them?

[@SVSky]

@@delluminatis Cause they don't normally go to liberal arts schools after generally.

[@philiphunn194]

@@TOYBOX2008 Giving off real "old man yells at cloud" energy there, champ.

[@ortizmo]

One of the best scenes in one of the best episodes in all of Trek. Wish that Vreenak would've survived to return in further episodes.

[@timrhicks1234]

Perhaps one of the single best scenes in all of DS9!

[@SJYNYC]

I never realized what a great voice McHattie has. I hear every vowel, every constanant.

[@illuvitarv5]

Such great acting in this scene sad you don't see much of it in modern television

[@Cruxvae]

I love that Vreenak says outright to Sisko that he doesn't think the Federation will do whatever it takes to win the war. Little does he know...

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Senator Vreenak is more memorable than any character that's been developed over four years on Discovery.

[@adumbedgyname7158]

It's actually very fortunate that his character died. If he'd lived on, he'd have been constantly dogged wherever he went in the galaxy. "Senator! Senator Vreenak! Hey, Senator Vreenak! Say something's fake!"

[@stardude2006]

Very good scene Stephen McHattie was excellent as Vreenak 4 thumbs up !

[@NadiaKamyab-pr8tx]

❤

[@toradora1439]

Man, McHattie's acting as a Romulan Diplomat is top notch. Really nailed down the Romulan angle pretty well in this episode I thought.

[@M1st3rB3nn]

I love the 2:10 moment where you can see in Sisko's eyes that that it's the moment he's chosen to offer the lie.

[@danieldickson8591]

Up until then he could pretend it was just another negotiation. Now he knows he can't put off this choice any longer. It's impressive how closely this debate follows the "practice run" he had with Dax.

[@aurex8937]

*I want proof.* "What if told you that I have ten crates of real Kali-Val right here on Deep Space 9?" *Takes another sip, stares at the glass with a smirk on his face* "So?" *Six hours later, the Romulan Empire declared war on the Dominion...*

[@studinthemaking]

Aurex Is that a star empire drink?

[@aurex8937]

studinthemaking Yep! It's actually the real name of the romulan ale. Only it's Kali-Fal, not Kali-Val. My bad.

[@BasicShapes]

"What if I told you I had an isolinear data rod created by some guy I hired to...oh fuck.." "Yeah, we're done here, captain. *smells drink again* ...a fair approximation."

[@davecrupel2817]

*smirks* "I'd want proof."

[@zoidberg8960]

All because of party-liquor induced RAGE

[@rmdoyen1]

Great episode, great acting, especially by Stephen McHattie...although the Kali Fal looked suspiciously like Gatorade to me

[@panther196321]

Listerine

[@Deadpool_64]

panther196321 They'd probably want something that the actors could safely drink without throwing up, so I doubt it was that. The original Kanar was bad enough, it was Karo syrup.

[@andysahs1599]

@@Deadpool_64 Karo Dark Corn syrup i think .

[@danielhausser8038]

This was one of the finest and most exciting episodes of Star Trek. 🖒❤🖖

[@russelljackson8153]

"The Dominion is prepared to win at any cost." Funny thing about the Federation though - push them hard enough and next thing you know, they're unleashing a bioweapon that wipes out the Founders in one fell swoop.

[@Doncroft1]

Absolute class act, like most old classic Trek actors.

[@newatlantisrepublic6844]

His voice is badass

[@deaddropsd1972]

Agreed

[@nbvw3]

The timing... the pauses... perfect. It's not by accident that I came here to see if anyone had uploaded it after watching the episode...

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

One of the best episodes of any Star Trek series ever.

[@1993bahamut]

Senator by day, liquor connoisseur by night

[@AlyssMa7rin]

McHattie as Vreenak, and Iggy Pop as a Vorta are by far my favorite Guest Stars

[@jatigre1]

I have to watch this episode at least once a year.

[@deaddropsd1972]

It’s the best

[@waivedwench]

I love a Canadian Romulan!!!

[@stardude2006]

waivedwench Yesss !!!!!

[@AvianSavara]

Vreenak wants proof. Speaking of proof, I'm willing to bet Kali-fal is about 110-proof or more. :P

[@pbdye1607]

More than that. It's been described as an "instant drunk," which means in addition to having high proof, there's likely some component of it that would cause it to get into a human's bloodstream more quickly and be tolerated less efficiently than in a Romulan's body. It probably crosses the blood/brain barrier somehow which would explain the "instant drunk" feeling. I've always assumed it's like drinking a liquid form of nitrous oxide, without flash-freezing your lungs.

[@ortizmo]

@@pbdye1607 "Beware Romulans bearing gifts......"

[@Vindix007]

The best Star Trek episode ever made.

[@rolandocastaneda4429]

I learned one big truth in life. A drink gets better around better company. The better the conversation the better the drink becomes and vice versa.

[@AdmRose]

I love the foreshadowing here. He could just as easily be talking about the data rod.

[@Enkarashaddam]

Replicated Kali-fal = data rod

[@BlueonGoldZ]

I just saw him on the movie 'Geronimo' and his acting and voice was so distinct, it immediately linked in my mind to Vreenak. Lo' and behold, they are the same actor!

[@DblOSmith]

Part of my favorite star trek episode of all time.

[@paddy7812]

McHattie made a perfect Romulan.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

I wish he would *not* have realized the data rod was fake so we had a reason to see Senator Vreenak for the rest of the series.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

1:48 And that people, is called Foreshadowing.

[@michaelmacleod6517]

Romulans are my absolute favourite in Star Trek.

[@watchncarry9593]

Whether it was intended by the writers or not, I like how Vreenak's opinion of the kali-fal (as a "close approximation) foreshadows Sisko's attempt to fabricate evidence. Both the the drink and the evidence were figured out by Vreebak's suspicionsly discerning mind. However, as in mosy cases, Garak won in the end lol.

[@CoolsBreeze]

I keep looking back on dialogue that used to exist in these Trek shows like DS9. And I'm severely disappointed that it's noticeable absent in Discovery. You can definitely notice the contrast in quality between the shows.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

It's not just Discovery but a lot of new shows. Dialogue used to be written to get as much across in as few words as possible. Everything that was said had a purpose, even if that purpose wouldn't be clear until later. Now every talks way too much and has to explicitly lay everything out. All of those conversations about feelings on Discovery would handled with a few words or even a glance on other Star Trek shows.

[@pwslattery]

Vreenak enjoyed his drink, but could tell it was replicated -- this showed how meticulous he was and foreshadowed the outcome where he realised Sisko forged a recording for him. However, what he forgot to consider was Garak and that bomb planted in his ship.

[@metsrus]

Yeah I was about to say the same thing. The writing for this series was superb, the side conversation about the replicated Romulan drink wasn't just some small talk. Vreenak intentionally used the drink as a parallel to Sisko's situation, saying Ben made some real good arguments and almost had him convinced about joining, but he wasn't totally convinced yet. Little did he know he was foreshadowing something bigger.

[@ANProductionsOfficialChannel]

God... I love hating on the arrogance of the Romulans. Much respect.

[@shane1489]

Oh man I remember watching this show week to week and I was horrified this character didn’t stick around.🤷‍♂️

[@RaginRonic]

Stephen McHattie...born in Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada. A fellow Atlantic Canadian AND a fellow Maritimer, like me. I think that Paramount may have been in contact at this time with CTV Atlantic, then ATV, scouting talent for some roles for DS9, maybe to return the favor after the show was profiled on ATV's 'Live At 5' supper-hour newsmagazine show. DS9 was aired for it's last 6 seasons on ATV, after airing on MITV, an independent TV station there, now Global Maritimes, in it's 1st season. =)

[@joshuaweston4489]

I adore this episode more and more each time I watch it. It might be the greatest episode of DS9. Sure, it's not the biggest in scale, and it's certainly not the most action packed...but the stakes are very high and the drama is on point! Love Sisko's recording segments where he explores the confines of his mind aloud in an attempt to deal with everything that happened throughout the episode and to deal with his choices. Best of all, by the end of the recording, he regrets none of it and would do it all again. Also, I want some of what Vreenak is drinking!

[@GalaxyMagician]

damn, his voice is sexy lol

[@Mimi-ge8nr]

GalaxyMagician I know,right 😍

[@ks2033tv]

This voice reading to you at night... don't care what. Even the phone book.

[@dphorgan]

ks2033tv I want him to narrate one of my bowel movements.

[@cyclingzealot]

Neat! Stephen McHattie is from Nova-Scotia, Canada!

[@Jotarou]

Canadian Romulan with bowl cut drinks blue gatorade

[@michaelabrasesco292]

I just saw him on Hill Street Blues as an office who uses excessive force. This guy is a study in coolness.

[@brandong3816]

Such excellent foreshadowing.

[@martincamacho2444]

This episode of intrigue

[@esasoftware1900]

Garak, Quark, Odo, and honorable mention to Rom made this series for me. Oh yes, less we forget the incredible Gul Dukat, who you always wanted to root for but he never really changed. The other actors to me, wallpaper.

[@TurboCathedral]

Stephen McHattie would've made a good Vorta.

[@jmstowe]

He would be better in the White House than the current occupant.

[@robertpolanco1973]

That is NOT a decent thing for you to say.

[@JanoyCresvaZero]

@@jmstowe This is the dumbest comment I’ve ever seen on KZbin. Congrats.

[@ortizmo]

@@robertpolanco1973 In 2017 it was Cheeto Benito, so he nailed it.

[@cliffharaldjallamekk9845]

Little did he know he was about to kick the bucket courtesy of Garak.

[@robert982]

"There's a word for that ... surrounded."

[@Rensune]

"Most Important, the Dominion is resolved, to win the war at any cost" ---The Sisko will remember that

[@azraelknightquest5754]

Looked like Vreenak was warming up to the idea but he just wanted more.

[@hawkstringfellow]

He didn't know Starfleet would win the war at anycost aswell he found out the hardway

[@sonofcy]

It's this kind of quality writing that's been missing on the new iterations of ST. Comparing Discovery to this is like comparing a ford capri to a rolls royce.

[@Todd1356]

This is, by far, the best story ever in Trek.

[@spartybrearly7221]

The Romulan Empire is powerful but there are other options. Sisko should have considered negotiations with other potential allies, e.g. Shelliak Corporate, Nausicaans, Calamarain.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

None of those other potential allies had anywhere near the power of the Romulans. Don't get me wrong; every little bit helps so having the Shelliak around would be useful. But having them would be like having Denmark as an ally while the Romulans would be similar to Germany. I know who I'd devote much more attention to trying to win over.

[@VHS_Vampire1988]

Sisko: "Can I offer you something to drink? Raktajino? Vreenak: "Ok yeah do you have a Romulan ale?" Sisko: "I don't think we have that." Vreenak: "That's a little strange." Sisko: "Why does that surprise you?" Vreenak: "Well it's a very popular drink." Sisko: "This is a Federation space station." Vreenak: "That's true."

[@ennabennab8061]

That VOICE....

[@JarlOfSwot]

Avery and Stephen played off each other so well. It's a shame we didn't get to see more Vreenak.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

He should have "It's _not_ a faaaaaake" so we could have seen him on DS9 for the rest of the series. Having a smug Romulan around would have given the writers yet another interest character to work with. Can you imagine how fun Garak and Vreenak would be together?

[@dvdv7777]

A great scene, but unfortunately, there is one part that irks me and does not fit the otherwise great intellect of the senator. Sisko has one killer argument: if the Dominion wins, the Romulans are surrounded. The senator dismissed that casually, but he shouldn't have. The Dominion has been shown to be highly aggressive, and has a a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to non-Dominion civilizations: they are conquered or annihilated. There is no way the Romulans could have held their ground against the Dominion after the war. Not against a force able to win against the Federation *and* the Klingons. Had the Dominion won, it would not have been a matter of "if", but "when" the Dominion would have started the conquest of the Romulan empire. And they would have succeeded. 100%. Perhaps this error can be explained with Romulan arrogance - it would fit their character - but Vreenak is a bit too smart for that.

[@toomanyaccounts]

or the Romulans would be building up their military to launch a strike when the Dominion had won over the Klingons and Federation. The remaining Dominion forces would be spread over and trying to occupy those terrorities. The Dominion would be weakened while the Romulans would be strong. the Romulans would have gone to war against the Dominon. Sikso just accelerated the timetable.

[@sethtubman1229]

Actually way back in "The Search Part II," the Dominion ran a simulation on Sisko, Dax, Bashir, O'Brien, Garak and T'Rul of a Dominion peace treaty with the Federation, Cardassians and Klingons; the Romulans and Bajorans were excluded. The Federation was withdrawing from DS9 and handing the station over to the Dominion. The Romulans and Bajorans were forming an alliance to prepare for war against other the powers. It was heavily implied that the Romulans and Bajorans were going to be utterly crushed in such an alliance. If the Federation, Cardassians and Klingons cooperated with the Dominion against the Romulans, there would not be a need for the Dominion to occupy those territories. Obviously the Bajorans would have been utterly overwhelmed almost immediately. The Dominion could have easily launched a full-scale invasion of Romulan territory. The Romulans signed a non-aggression pact after losing a few warbirds under the Tal Shiar's command on the abortive Founder homeworld. With the wormhole blocked or controlled by the Federation, the Dominion still managed to push into the core of the Federation's worlds, with Betazed occupied and Andor, Tellar, Vulcan and Earth threatened. They had 1,254 ships pulled off the front lines to confront a fleet of less than 600 ships; if the 2,800 ships from the Gamma Quadrant had not been removed by the Prophets, the Alpha and Beta Quadrants would have been lost. As it was, the Klingon Empire was crippled for at least a decade, the Federation was exhausted and the Romulans could not have been any better.

[@DEP717]

Very well put. My one minor nit is that the Romulans might have lost less ships, having come in later, though it would have ben a rough learning curve, and we can't know how many ships the Romulans had before they got involved, and what percentage were lost. Also, the Tal'Shiar had to have been depleted pretty severely from their raid into Dominion Space with Tain and the Obsidian Order, which had been ambushed. The effects on Romulan Society of the Tal'Shiar getting so beat up must have been interesting. Your points are all very solid, and really worth reading for anyone interested in what the "Universe" that these two characters were dealing with was like at this point in the story.

[@bobpage6597]

I still don't buy that bullshit about the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order being "out of commission" after the disaster at the Founder's homeworld, despite what the writers had written in. Both organisations are huge, overseeing the security of vast territory. I'm sorry, but its a MASSIVE quadrant sized plot-hole to assume the loss of 10 ships per side at the Founders homeworld would have fudged both agencies. Its just not possible, its not plausible. We see during Inter Arma Silent Leges that the Tal'Shiar are still in operation, and that's to be expected given the losses at the founders homeworld were in the grand scheme, minimal. Its very sloppy writing to try and pretend otherwise or convince your viewers as such.

[@paul1979uk2000]

Thats what always got me, no way would the Dominion allow the Romulans stay as they are if the Dominion won the war and the Romulans wouldn't stand a chance in beating the Dominion with all the other major powers out of the way and because of that, the Romulans would have no choice but to join the war. We should also remember that if the Dominion won the war, they will have easy access to the resources of the Gamma quardon so man power wont be a issue for them, the Romulans would be screwed then.

[@joetuktyyuktuk8635]

Throughout TNG and Deep Space 9, some of the best casting and writing was reserved for the Romulan characters.

[@MDE_never_dies]

Senator Vrenak’s scenes really help make this episode to be honest.

[@chitterlingsrtasty]

Wow this is the “I said COFFEE!!!” Actor? Impressive.

[@zingtea]

That kali-fal is a faaaaake...

[@aperson22222]

zingtea It’s real! I created it and it’s real! Don’t you understand? _It is real!_

[@xBloodXGusherx]

THIS TYPE OF WRITING DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE IN STAR TREK!

[@ameriscm7351]

what i like is that he's judging the federation's logic and resolve - but he underestimates the resolve of sisko & garak... plus he heavily underestimates section 31's action that even if the dominion won, their founders would die from the disease

[@tonywhite2647]

Sisko it's call surrounded lmao😂😂😂😂

[@Wraithfighter]

One thing I love about this episode is that, well... Think about it. In this scene, there's a duplicitous, scheming individual willing to use lies and deception in order to coerce his counterpart into a war they would not support if they knew the truth, and an honorable man open to the truth, willing to reconsider his options if presented with the proper evidence, all while trying to prevent his people from being dragged into a war that does not currently involve their nation. With the above paragraph, who would you normally think would be the Human Starfleet Captain, and which the Romulan Senator?

[@Sasuke81a]

Vreenak would've love to watch Game of Thrones.

[@Kalenz1234]

By far the best Star Trek series. I wish Garrak and Bashier would have gotten their own shows.

[@TBrianOnline]

This character has earned his place in all Star Treks to come. Let's photoshop him into Discovery, they'll be happy.

[@kxmode]

"Now in all candor." As a Romulan senator, he would be familiar with the Qowat Milat and their Way of Absolute Candor.

[@Bertiesghost]

Awesome scene.

[@jamespayter6948]

DS9 just blows away all other Trek series. Great story arcs, amazing acting

[@yukin1990]

Well, you are about to see the Federation resolve!! Oh, wait? you can't, because you be DEAD!!!

[@Connection-Lost]

When he said "I'd want proof" he was telling Sisko he knew what Sisko would expect from him. If he didn't suspect a ploy right from the start, he would say something like "I assume you have some evidence?"

[@romancandle416]

I kinda want Vreenak to represent me in Congress. Is that wrong?

[@Smarackto]

ABSOLUTE CINEMA |_o_|

[@poseidon5003]

It was cool to hear a Romulan use my peoples accent.

[@deaddropsd1972]

What accent?

[@poseidon5003]

@deaddropsd1972 Maritimer Nova Scotia. The way he pronounced "taller".

[@russell5078084]

Of course he would want proof. Only a fool wouldn't.

[@piotrd.4850]

Brilliant writing. Analogies to opinion swaying back and forth using ale.... :D "any price" - well, talk about sealing one's fate...