Duchess of Hamilton 46229 slipping excessively at Dent Station 1983

[@espeescotty]

From then after, it has been known as Dent In The Rails Station.

[@pjd7325]

Possibly an overfull boiler led to water going into the regulator valve,when the driver opened it to start a heavy train on an incline the locomotive slipped (which is common on a damp rail), driver attempted to shut the regulator to control the slip and it was stuck open. Then attempted several times to open the regulator further in an attempt to slam it shut unfortunately (but un avoidable) making the slip worse. The cylinder drain cocks were opened early to reduce the steam pressure in the steam chest. Thankfully the locomotive suffered no major damage and was able to continue. Full credit to the crew for avoiding a blue peter incident. Must of been an unnerving experience for all concerned.

[@deeremeyer1753]

Yeah. Steep inclines are often found at stations. And getting water into the steam system magically causes the engines to slip and run away instead of hydraulically locking and probably destroying it.

[@deeremeyer1753]

Slipping on "damp" rail may be common in the UK and on the railroads of other Commonwealth countries, but we don't have that problem much in the U.S. Not to mention if it is a big problem over there, opening the "cylinder drains" (via remote control, of course, right?) and exhausting steam and water vapor and liquid water onto the track seems like a really shitty way to help stop it.

[@BirchleyJunction]

opening the cylinder drain cocks helps remove any water from priming, stopping the cylinders hydrolocking and preventing excess damage. they are not usually pointed at the railhead, and opening them could be considered common practise to avoid slipping, as it softens the steam flow as the regulator is opened further. im not sure if this loco has superheaters fitted, but if it does water can get into them, and cause excessive steam to uncontrollably reach the cylinders.

[@7822welshsteam]

I tell you what, though. I'd have liked to have been on the platform next to a static Duchess's funnel at full cry!

[@dblissmn]

@@BirchleyJunction Yes, this class has superheaters, pretty good sized ones too though not the biggest in British steam. Wikipedia has the square footage of superheating surface on the spec sheet, I think.

[@richardmasters3571]

Although I enjoy watching them, I know nothing about steam trains. But having read all the comments below it is clear that operating these machines requires a lot of skill. So, huge respect for the guys on the footplate!

[@johnanthony5421]

I,ve driven the Dutchess many times when I was at Skipton loco, I think the driver opened the regulator too severe, and engaged second regulator slightly, he then, correctly,opened the regulator full and closed it, lucky the two men who went on the opposite line between the platforms, that a train was not coming though! ,,I was an LMS man and the dutchess was my favourite loco,,john Anthony.

[@Bodgemiester]

I was watching the run into the adjacent line too. Just shows that they were a bit panicked

[@tedgoater]

Great clip! I was another passenger that day, remember the occurrence. It was Saturday 28th May, train basically 11 coaches for Leander from Carnforth to Hellifield then 46229 attached the other end with 3 more carriages of the, was it, ’55 Club’ dining cars? to make total 14. In dismal conditions for time of year, the climb to Blea Moor was good. Believe the track is level at Dent, but the curve made restart tougher. The wheelspin was alarming and it was a relief when it ended and we were able to restart normally.

[@struck2soon]

The comments about "train too long" and "overloaded" are unfounded, as the loco clearly gets away without slipping when handled a bit more carefully on second attempt. It is pretty obvious that some form of carry-over kept that regulator jammed open, I am sure it was desperation on the footplate whilst they tried to shut off steam.

[@CGT867]

+struck2soon You hit the nail on the head - the loco lifts the train without fuss when the driver opens the regulator carefully the second time. I wonder if he tried winding it into mid gear after he couldn't shut the regulator?

[@struck2soon]

+CGT867 can't really comment with any authority, but it would seem like the sensible thing to do if the regulator is jammed open. It would explain the delay in stopping the wheelslip, it clearly takes several seconds to wind a non-power reverser back to the mid-gear position. Happily the engine didn't seem to suffer any damage.

[@davidmason7765]

+struck2soon does the driver open the cylinder cocks manually during the slip to help gain control, or is their opening evidence for the priming theory? Not saying it has to be priming - my understanding is that some models of regulator get very hard to close during a violent slip even without priming ...?

[@struck2soon]

David Mason The cylinder drain cocks are opened manually, however they are not opened to regain control but rather to prevent any water being carried over from blowing out the cylinder ends. Yes, it is my understanding that if a regulator is opened to a full/nearly full position and a wheelslip occurs it can be very difficult to shut due to the volume of steam flowing at that point. Priming can occur without wheel slip, usually as a result of boiler being a bit too full or other factors relating to condition of boiler water.

[@Powerdrummer1972]

+struck2soon Lucky to have got away with that, Blue Peter wasn't so lucky!

[@nigelterry9299]

I was on this train and this was the only sign of trouble. Overloaded my foot!!!! Over enthusiastic opening of the regulator!!!

[@iankemp1131]

Adrian Vaughan stated that Stanier regulators had to be opened to full before they could be shut. Don't quite know why. He commented that it made things more difficult in the Chapel-en-le-Frith accident of 1957, when a main steam pipe broke and the driver was struggling to close the regulator by this route with the cab full of high pressure steam. The train then went over the summit, ran away down a steep incline and collided with another one, and the brave driver (John Axon) who had stayed with the engine to try to stop it and warn others was killed. It looks as if this might have contributed to the delay in closing the regulator here, and priming and water carryover making the regulator very hard to shut (incompressible water instead of steam) were presumably the main cause.

[@olly5764]

My dad tells me he was on the train, the reason for the stop was there was pilotman working in between Dent and the box in rear (I think Blea Moor) and the stop was to drop off the pilotman (They don't like being hung on token catchers! lol) On restarting, she picked the water up and the regulator became stuck, so once the slip started it was somewhat difficult to stop.

[@nigelterry9299]

You can see me leaning out, 4th coach back. Overloaded? No, she made a swift run apart from this slip. As for the regulator sticking, common problem on BIG engines because the flow of steam deflects the plate and makes it stick open.

[@mick35w]

Drivers today don’t have the experience like back in the old days, I was at Durham when blue peter had catastrophic wheel spin,

[@justandy333]

Experimenting at friction welding to gain adhesion?

[@nickcumbria4472]

I was there it was F###ing scary, and there were 6 big lumps of track missing later! The centre drivers were glowing and sending sparks everywhere...somewhere there's a story that all that happened was the brakes hadn't come off....That said Hamilton also slipped at Carlisle and caused a massive "bang" as all the soot and muck arched off the overhead wires again on a dramatic slip still she always was a bit of a drama queen fantastic machine though.

[@barrycarlisle4511]

You poor thing!!

[@Meddled]

Impressive that the engine propelled itself out of the depressions it just carved into the rails!

[@Linesider1]

I had heard an audio recording of this incident on the SteamSounds website but did not know that any video existed - and such good quality video at that. Brilliant/scary all at the same time, many thanks for the upload - a real gem.

[@LizardKingJimLA69]

Thought that the video was particularly poor quality myself. Very poor and blurry.

[@Linesider1]

LizardKingJimLA69 Well, whoopee-do. For 1983, it's good in my book.

[@LizardKingJimLA69]

@@Linesider1 Whoopee-do? WTF. You obviously had cheap low-end video equipment back in the day and now you need a much stronger spectacle prescription to appreciate how poor the results were.

[@Linesider1]

LizardKingJimLA69 Or, I have a different opinion to yours? I am very grateful to the person who filmed this and the uploader for enabling me to see this incident at 25fps, in colour, with sound. A bit like how I also appreciate seeing the moon landing footage despite the limitations of the technology of the time. If you think it's poor quality, fine, but there's really no need to tell me that.

[@mattyrallye]

flipping heck! Amazing that no damage was done.

[@KeeperOfPoops]

the rails got damaged unless you mean to the train then yes

[@cr10001]

The Blue Peter incident was when 60532 Blue Peter suffered a disastrous uncontrolled wheelslip leaving Durham. Circumstances were similar to the Duchess here, except that it was worse and severely damaged the engine. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5vWf5WwnJaIl6s

[@RJ1999x]

Call Fred Dibnah, he would have fixed it

[@DCOE40]

Loco working hard and so the fire was probably very bright. Stopped in station with safeties lifting. No steam consumption when stopped. Open regulator and pressure drop results in water boiling excessively resulting in water being carried over into superheater (this is called priming). The water has to boil off - nowhere for it to go apart from the valve chests and cylinders because the water is now downstream of the regulator. Wheel slip will continue uncontrolled and uncontrollable until all of the water in the superheater has boiled away. Root cause - fireman keeping fire too bright on climb up to station. Error of judgement.

[@collinblack8474]

A bright fire is better than a dull fire, the fireman probably even accidentally put little too much water in the boiler. Didn't help when the driver aggressively opened the regulator and that will sometimes pick up water as it did in this case. Both factors probably happened in this case.

[@VehicularBrit]

Well, there's one way of getting rid of excess steam :/ What a bummer that she should be slipping so fast for so long.

[@dariusthedmirconsolidation3494]

At least she was struggling too hard to stop

[@steamgent4592]

Ahhh the good ole days before modern signaling and Duchess still under steam.........

[@FeckHallBahn]

I remember reading about this at the time, never seen any video before. Must’ve been quite terrifying on the footplate before they regained control of the regulator. Priming???

[@ianskeggs5294]

I think that engineer made a statement there! Good on you

[@renegadeoflife87]

Is it just me or do all the British locomotives share this design flaw where a wheel slip causes the boiler to prime into the superheater, generating a surge of flash steam that makes the wheelslip become violent and can't be easily dissapated. The crew ends up only able to ride out the wheelslip and be more careful trying again.

[@nigelterry9299]

renegadeoflife87 the problem is one of loading gauge. Remember that the steam railway 1st appeared in the UK and no one knew how big the trains should be. So Europe learned from our mistake and made their loading gauge bigger. Then came the US, Africa, India and Australia. Russia and China were the last countries to see railways so their loading gauge is MASSIVE!!! The UK gauge means that large locos such as this need a flat dome so the height of the regulator valve above the water level in the boiler is restricted, leading to water carry-over during bouts of slipping.

[@Thej611]

Why would the engineer do that? That was a little excessive

[@TheFlyingJocks]

What was the blue Peter incident?

[@mildly_miffed_man1414]

The blue peter was leaving a station when the engineer set the throttle very high and couldn't stop it so the engine spun out at almost 100 mph and wrecked itself

[@threepea1151]

@@mildly_miffed_man1414 it was at 140+ mph

[@MrJimbaloid]

ohhh scary stuff is that when an engine starts priming?

[@JohnSmith-pd1fz]

Lots of armchair drivers and american experts still posting advice.

[@AEKarnes]

Pay them no mind, Americans don't know much about steam engines and don't seem to want to anymore.

[@JohnSmith-pd1fz]

++@@AEKarnes++ But they do claim to have the biggest, loudest, most powerful steam locomotive ever made and have recently restored it to some sort of working order apparently.

[@AEKarnes]

@@JohnSmith-pd1fz Americans think size is everything. The boiler on that monster isn't even designed to fire properly.

[@JohnSmith-pd1fz]

++@@AEKarnes++ Well I had my reservations when i first heard about it. I wonder if it was intended to be wood fired, rather than coal.

[@adamcordell]

@@AEKarnes isn’t designed to fire properly? Who told you that? In terms of pulling power, the big boy was one of the most successful, but it’s not the most. I curious as to why you say Americans don’t care to learn about steam locomotives anymore, most problems these days is the new generation of steam railroaders want to learn, but most all of the old heads aren’t willing to teach

[@simon201063]

Could have gone full Blue Peter. Never go full Blue Peter.

[@mildly_miffed_man1414]

@Captain Dildoface it had such bad wheelslip it almost started melting the wheels and blew the linkage all to hell. There's footage on youtube

[@BNSFGuy4723]

Simon Swain I love this comment

[@DuchéIlyène]

Terrible idea

[@mattseymour8637]

What a wheelslip! Could be overfilled boiler or priming or just too much regulator causing wheelslip and regulator jammed open. Thought the cylinder valves would have been opened sooner though!? Like the way the officials checked the valve gear for damage!

[@lewisallin3956]

Why didn't the driver shut off? And why did she stop?

[@JerryNSretired]

Non-expert opinion. It *appears* to ME to be a failure of the throttle linkage?? From a distance, hard to tell, but the train stopped. Brakes would been holding the train still when whatever happened, happened. No engineer would permit his engine to "run away" like that on purpose. On this side of the pond(USA) where steam is rare, but still exists due to popular demand, on MY railroad, one would be run off the right of way right QUICK for allowing this to happen on purpose. So I don't think that's what happened. Something went WRONG, IMHO. I've seen engines slip by accident, but never to the extent of THIS incident, and that's why I think it was a mechanical failure????????????? Methinks, the crew would have stopped it sooner if they could have!

[@ralph5407]

Because with steam/water passing through the regulator at that rate it become virtually impoosible to close it.

[@davidhyer3404]

Oh that hurts to listen to

[@dariusthedmirconsolidation3494]

Tell that to the engine her self as she’s hurting her own wheels, rods, and pistons. But not only them, the rails were suffering in hellish agony too.

[@rogerking7258]

Sounds like these locos need some sort of emergency dump valve that can vent the excess steam when this happens.

[@TestECull]

Or perhaps just a better regulator design that isn't prone to jamming itself wide open when wheelslip occurs. Note you never see a US steamer do this when the wheels slip, engy closes the regulator and it stops feeding steam to the cylinders. On many british steamers the regulator won't close when there's a large flow of steam around it, thus we see what's effectively a runaway engine. The only times American steamers came close to doing this was on the mallets, where one set of drivers would remain firmly adhered to the rails while the other slipped. Often this would go unnoticed by the engineer because the length of such locomotives and the massive diameter of their boilers meant it was difficult to see the forward drivers and the sound of the in-traction engine would obscure the sound of the slipping one. PRR had problems with severe damage to running gear on their 4-4-4-4 steamers because of this, often because it would happen while the locomotive was already ripping along at 70-80MPH. Even here, though, if the engineer caught it and closed the regulator the wheels calmed right back down again.

[@trustyoldiron5416]

On the surface that sounds like a good idea. But you need to remember steam is not like compressed air. Because the water is the boiler is already well above it's normal boiling point and the only thing keeping it from turning into steam is the pressure in the boiler. So as you remove steam (pressure) from the boiler the water in the boiler instantly turns to steam maintaining the pressure. So if you were to dump large amounts of steam/pressure you'd also be losing a lot of water potentially uncovering the crown sheet with deadly results. As the engine began to slip the regulator jammed from the steam flow. The crew did a good job with the options they had. You can see they opened the cylinder drain cocks at 1:57 to lower the pressure locally at the cylinders.

[@nigelterry9299]

Roger King they have one, the drain taps. When the slip gets out of control, the taps are opened but the only thing that stopped this one was a brake application. As for the regulator, with such a low dome needed to fit under the British loading gauge, water carry over is inevitable on a loco this size, even with a smoke box regulator a la Blue Peter.

[@mallet2882]

wonderful sound

[@stephensmith799]

Yes. Looks like priming. Scary!

[@bobnorton3363]

Stephen Smith n

[@steveevans7170]

What's the person at the throttle think they are doing yanking it open to that extent????

[@streamleazefishhouse]

Maybe it was Jeremy Clarkson.

[@jamesarkell5419]

Once on to the main valve it won't shut fully until it's been opened wide. It's a feature of the type of regulator fitted to a lot of locomotives. The driver didn't know what to do and the locos engineer who fortunately happened to be on the engine at the time (and was an engineman himself) dealt with it.

[@wgj4813]

I saw City Of Carlisle break a cylinder in Ormskirk Station on 7pm Glasgow to Liverpool Exchange it set fire to embankments both sides of the track. The noise could be heard at some distance away. I didnt have time to be terrified just gob smacked as it tried to pull a train of about 11 coaches on with next to no vaccuum as i understand it.

[@haroldpearson6025]

Water in the super heater matrix will do that as steam is still produced even when regulator is closed.

[@davechilton1951]

ALMOST A BLUE PETER JOB ! OBVIOUSLY NOT A WEST COAST DRIVER !!!

[@Schenkerflyingv]

Was there any need to keep the throttle fully open for that period of time - Stevie Wonder could see that the train wasn't moving.

[@KrisDouglas]

It doesn't work like that. The boiler was over full and water locked the regulator open.

[@shaneisaperson3161]

The locomotive in the video is not duchess of Hamilton

[@jackcarter5101]

?

[@shaneisaperson3161]

@@jackcarter5101 what's there to be confused about

[@jackcarter5101]

A lot - how do you know? Which loco is it?

[@shaneisaperson3161]

@@jackcarter5101 it says it in the title dumy

[@jackcarter5101]

@@shaneisaperson3161 The title says Duchess of Hamilton, but you said it's NOT Duchess of Hamilton!

[@raycross1783]

Picked up the water alright..................

[@louisianahighballproductio6954]

it Blue Petered

[@davidantoniocamposbarros7528]

Almost

[@Absolut531kmh]

That's not Hamilton brouuuu

[@floodedcar123]

How can you tell it's the duchess of Hamilton?

[@JohnSmith-pd1fz]

There are several ways! You could have looked at the timetable for that day, you could have read her nameplate as she went past, you could have recognised her shape, size, colour, sound and so on.........and of course you could simply know it was her.

[@collinblack8474]

And at this period in the 80s, she was the only Duchess in steam. 6233 was still owned by a leisure Park I think. And I live in Newcastle NSW Australia.

[@michaelperkins5746]

unbelievable saftey does not come first

[@simonsteam]

Engine Primed.

[@Ned-nw6ge]

the engineer is to unpatient in the beginning. always drive things with gentle approach!!

[@LuckyTrucker1]

Have you not read read anything in this post about stuck regulator and priming ?

[@floodedcar123]

Good slipping clip

[@SteffenReichel]

Bad boiler water treatment, heavy carry over

[@gordonashumway]

They should change the driver.

[@KrisDouglas]

Driver didn't really do anything wrong...

[@deeremeyer1753]

1983, huh? What brand of camcorder did you have back then, Chief? VHS, I'm assuming? Odd thing about the whole VHS "winning the format war" against BetaMax is that VHS was a direct record only format for many years following its "victory" because Sony owned the technology for recording sound and video on magnetic tape. VHS VIDEOCASSETTE RECORDERS were NOT camcorders. They were connected to cable or antenna input and recorded cable or broadcast television programming or other signals that could be made "compatible" with the technology. A lot of people seem to think VHS meant everyone immediately had a "camcorder". Not so much. It was close to ten years after VHS was first "introduced" before affordable, amateur-level camcorders capable of handling videocassettes were available, and the most successful ones said Sony on the side and used a compact videocassette. So overall, I'm pretty sure this "1983" thing is a lie or a big mistake. Its pretty obvious from at least one of the cars in the video that's not the UK circa 1983, either.

[@Tvuvtctoj46fck]

Too much spare time, huh?

[@mildly_miffed_man1414]

: | It’s not that deep

[@michaeljohn7262]

Only a sticking regulator

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

a stuck regulator can be scary as Hell particularly while trying to get the damn thing stopped at speed. Just keep your wits about you and place the Johnson Bar or in England the reverser in the middle. It will take longer with the screw type reverser but it can be done!

[@Kestnuts]

+Wasatch Range Railway Tell that to the poor driver on Blue Peter. The screw reverse broke his wrist when he tried that, or so I've heard.

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

good gravy!-----really?

[@Kestnuts]

So the story goes, anyway. I wasn't there, being 8 years old and on the wrong side of the Atlantic at the time :P But from what I've read about the accident, the reversing screw spun out of control when the driver unlocked it to center the valve gear and broke his arm or wrist.

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

that's what I hear.

[@nigelterry9299]

Wasatch Range Railway both arms IIRC. Open the drain taps and, if that does not work, apply the brakes to check the spin but risk bent rods.

[@marycarey6582]

he was problably horsing it

[@bennickss]

If only it was still operational instead of locked up in york to rot..

[@Paraffinmeister]

Yep, just stand in the 4 foot, in a cloud of steam with your back to any on-coming trains. It'll be fine.....

[@Paraffinmeister]

Poopingbotham 4' is the name for between the rails (actually 4' 8 1/2 ").

[@Paraffinmeister]

Poopingbotham No problemo!=)

[@b.r.buckeyeman460]

+Alistair Foden yes just what I thought, he turned and looked back when it was too late, lucky for him nothing was about.

[@tyrreldavis1876]

Perhaps he is tired of living fool.

[@dj17q]

Rookie's mistake!!

[@jackcarter5101]

1:43

[@jodysmith7934]

Where's the banking locomotive they should have used one then they wouldn't have had no problems!!!!

[@tahititoutou3802]

Says the engineer "Where is that %?$#&! lever? What the %?$#&! blocks it? How do you turn that %?$#&! thing off?" By the way, looking at the rails, did you notice the name of the station is very appropriate? Someone superstitious could think this is what caused this incident...

[@bw_digitalphotography]

inci"dent" hehe see what you did there :P

[@tahititoutou3802]

GWR 5049 Yep! And I fell so sorry! :'(

[@keithtanner2806]

Ye Gods!!

[@mickcarson8504]

They should have never built a station on a bend and uphill. You have to expect slippage if the rail is wet or slippery. Brains, eh?

[@Rosie6857]

+Mick Carson The gradient here is level. This can be verified from Ian Allan's Gradient Profiles. Knowledge, eh?

[@thomasweekley9209]

I wonder what caused the slip

[@smitajky]

Perhaps the driver had just come from his sports car where he drops "wheelies" getting away from each traffic light?

[@thomasweekley9209]

smitajky they were luck that the duchess didn't go full on BLUE PETER when that happened

[@simon201063]

Doubtless it would have, had the driver not got the drain cocks open in time.

[@jamesarkell5419]

The brakes weren't fully released and the regulator is very difficult to close when there is a rush of steam like that. It has to be wound back into mid-gear and even then it takes steam and still runs so it has to be opened wide and slammed shut. One of the support crew dealt with it on that occasion, I was there at the time. We had several similar incidents with that engine. I remember one time at Kirkby Stephen when we got a signal check during a record run but we were moving and the rail didn't get damaged like it did at Dent. Fortunately the motion on those engines is very tough and don't bend however fast they go, unlike some other classes. The princesses used to occasionally bend their rods but the duchesses had rods made of Vibrac which is a Chrome/Moly steel alloy. Some of the rebuilt Scots had Vibrac rods e.g. 46100 has them but 46115 doesn't. There was an incident at Watford once when a Duchess ran for over 15 minutes and wore through the head of the rail.

[@yeetscreamer6030]

MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE

[@vmgrd34]

Another seriously overloaded loco - quite ridiculous. Even today, 2015 they still do it. Madness. Slap on as many coaches as possible, sell all the seats and to Hell with the consequences.

[@mattyrallye]

What are you on about???

[@martinthatsall1518]

pjd7325 gives a good explanation as to what happened (after I made my comment). Nevertheless, the overloading of these old locos still applies.

[@Paraffinmeister]

Since the 19th century there have been strict guidelines stating what load a specific type of loco can take over a given route. The one thing we can be certain of is she wasn't overloaded.

[@mick35w]

Should not be on the foot plate, irresponsible and dangerous!

[@Paraffinmeister]

that's a nice comfy looking armchair you have there.

[@mick35w]

@@Paraffinmeister hey thanks 👍

[@charliegalloway6741]

these enginespulled20 coaches at one time

[@LuckyTrucker1]

Ok 20 coaches as you say , but on what route ?

[@charlie8970]

@@LuckyTrucker1 yeah it was a test run between crew and Glasgow by duchess of abercorn it still holds the British record to day