Dune is the Star Wars killer

It's not just that George Lucas ripped off Frank Herbert. But it is that too.
Display your support for the mercantile - SighThigh.com
Music by Evan Handyside : Herald of the Change fingerstyle - • DUNE: Herald of the Ch...
And A Time of Quiet Between the Storms - • Hans Zimmer: A Time of...
#
Become a member of the Science Fiction community to continue the discussion
Website - damiengwalter.com
KZbin - / damienwalter
Patreon - / damienwalter
Subscribe to the Science Fiction podcast feed for long-form commentaries on these video essays
damiengwalter....
Join the Science Fiction community on Facebook
/ 324897304599197
Equipment
Camera amzn.to/41DpI1I
Lens amzn.to/3tyH1nZ
Microphone amzn.to/3RZ3sfD
Laptop amzn.to/48eZDsf
Recommendations
Greatest scifi novel amzn.to/3GZgL9r
First scifi novel amzn.to/41DazgK
Worst scifi novel amzn.to/3S045FO
Most overrated scifi writer amzn.to/3NIchI9

[@DamienWalter]

Display your loyalty to the mercantile 15% off all week with code CHOAM SighThigh.com

[@Folker46590]

Dune won't replace Star Wars or Star Trek because the Dune books quickly become unreadable. The books are increasingly weird, grim, and hopeless, and the books added by his son are even more incomprehensible. Paul is not a hero, he's just a man using whatever he can to avenge his father and take the throne. People say Leto II is the real hero, because he gives up his humanity to 'save' the human race (the Golden Path), but from what is never really explained.

[@KyRoTV91]

Disney: "You didn’t kill Star Wars, I did.."

[@maxpayne930]

Sad but true and this is why business and art MUST be seperate or we are doomed again

[@admincpt]

True that. I hope Disney does not get their grubby hands on Dune, otherwise...well, we all know how Dr Who turned out , and Star Wars.

[@jnnx]

Star Wars was long dead and buried long before Disney got their giant, gloved Mickey Mouse paws on it. Some of ya’ll are just heavily in denial. . .

[@vilarzky.m.6907]

0:41 Paul is more like Anakin than Luke (hero turns to dark path, wife died birthing, twin child, the male would be the savior of the galaxy)

[@richlisola1]

Yeah! More like Anakin if Anakin became The Emperor, if Anakin was politically astute.

[@justin3415]

Yes and no Herbert had his view,but he wrote the books also in such a way that the reader also has a point of view. But agree with u both and disagree. Great comments.

[@mattgilbert7347]

I've been calling it The Life of Anakin

[@aminmalik4086]

He didn't turn to the dark path...he was trapped.....( Couldn't control the Fremen Crusade)

[@angryguy3000]

Luke was originally meant to kill the emperor and become the new emperor at the end of Episode 6 which would have been titled “Revenge of the Jedi”

[@GB-sh9st]

This didn't kill Star Wars. Star Wars commit suicide.

[@MusicMissionary]

Disney killed it.

[@Jimbo1221]

@@MusicMissionary No they didn't. People keep forgetting Lucas made those horrible prequels. lmfao

[@MusicMissionary]

@@Jimbo1221 point taken. I'm biased vs Disney in general

[@Himmiefan]

Even though the sequels were awful, Star Wars will keep going, Star Trek too. There's more than enough room for these and Dune.

[@mielivalta]

Damn, I just came to comment it and someone beat me to it XD

[@CoyotesOwn]

I must not Dune. Dune is the Star Wars-killer. Dune is the New Franchise that brings total profit. I will face my Dune. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the Dune has gone there will be nothing. Only the Box Office will remain.

[@DamienWalter]

Very good

[@tipfertool5457]

They must not Woke. Woke is the box office killer.

[@wahn10]

Bless the Maker and his Movie.

[@Despotic_Waffle]

@@wahn10 Bless the coming and going of him. May Deni's passage cleanse the hollywood. May he keep the hollywood for his viewers.

[@peterfazio9306]

We're quickly becoming Dune fanatics.

[@leonardkrol2600]

There is an old saying, "If you steal from at least three different source, it is original!"

[@janosd4nuke]

Palworld agrees

[@mardy3732]

To be fair, any creative work is inevitably influenced by what came before to varying degrees.

[@inisipisTV]

Mediocre Artists Copies, Great Artist Steals - Pablo Picasso

[@KarlGutowski]

Paul becomes the villain when he utters "Send them to Paradise" to Stilgar. He delivers it with a sadness in acknowledgement that his Jihad is starting, as he foresaw, and with an understanding that billions will die.

[@BURPEEyogauncle]

if he didn't pick the "narrow path" he chose after seeing all the future versions, i am guessing humanity or the galaxy would cease to exist. i am thinking he chose the only path. as bad as it maybe be, it was the only path for the greater good. either it all ends or billions dies. not a hard choice but a sad one to execute.

[@peterfazio9306]

​@@BURPEEyogauncleGood insight.

[@osiris7945]

without it, there wouldn't be leto II perhaps humanity will be gone @@BURPEEyogauncle

[@thalmoragent9344]

​@@BURPEEyogauncle Wait, so what was gonna happen to the galaxy if he didn't go forth to war?

[@BURPEEyogauncle]

@@thalmoragent9344if we are to follow the story as told in the movie (not the book) there will be even more death across the galaxy and maybe end of humanity. paul chose the "best" path as he sees it. kinda like how dr strange saw all future permutations of how to beat thanos and said only one is good and still iron man dies. but apparantly the book paints a different picture.

[@TheCheeseBaron]

Don’t forget spice, and spice smuggling

[@Stitchman3875]

I think people need to read the books. The true litmus test of the fans will be when they make Dune Messiah into a movie. That’s where Herbert’s point begins. No doubt Star Wars borrowed a lot from Dune, but all movies do that. The Paul/Luke comparison is not accurate. Paul is more like Anakin. Alia is not similar to Leia, as you’ll see in Children of Dune if they make it. Star Wars is more rudimentary that they maintain a good guy/bad guy scenario. Dune blurs those lines and shows everyone as having tendencies towards being bad. These don’t come around until Messiah.

[@RED-my9hl]

keep lying to urself lmao

[@Stitchman3875]

@@RED-my9hl say whatever you want. The second book deconstructs the first story and the actual idea of having heroes in the first place. Dune Messiah is like The Matrix Reloaded of the series. Everything gets turned upside down.

[@mainstreetsaint36]

Messiah is going to mess up anyone who only watched the movies.

[@Stitchman3875]

@@mainstreetsaint36 my point exactly.

[@redfro4992]

Yes, this exactly, the real message begins there. Vellenueve set it up with that line "tell them a Messiah is coming and they will wait a thousand years." How people react to a physically blinded Paul, or how Villenueve shows the Jihad and disillusioned Fedaykin will be interesting.

[@SJFrzrbrn]

1. The new Dune movies are, by far, the best movies to exist in years. Not just science fiction movies, all movies. 2. Star Wars was murdered before Dune was in pre- production. Disney killed Star Wars. 3. Dune just exemplifies how far Star Wars has truly decayed into primordial soup by being so very superior to the travesty Star Wars has become.

[@hjones4922]

Although Andor is good - going back to the source

[@daviru02]

Just wait till the Bene Gesserit TV show comes out. They're gonna totally Mandalorian Dune

[@KnightSabers]

George killed Star Wars. Disney at least gave us a couple bangers in Andor and Rogue One. The prequels and OT special editions were the beginning of the end for Star Wars

[@SJFrzrbrn]

@@KnightSabers I guess technically you're right. George sold to Disney. Rogue One is a very dark movie. It's less science fantasy. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the Mandalorian and even found Solo passable. Everything else is blah to tragedy.

[@hjones4922]

@@SJFrzrbrn Rogue One and Andor are excellent. A genuine evolution. The Mandalorian is old fashioned fun that eventually lost steam. Even the Force Awakens is competent fun. Although completely derivative. The other sequels are very flawed, even weak (especially since they seem to have been made like a game of consequences with no coherence between episodes), but still overall better than George's prequels and weird CGI retcons. In retrospect, the Ewoks were a warning, and Disney has already made as much quality Star Wars as Lucas did, albeit at a lower hit rate.

[@diegodelsol1309]

That which is already dead cannot die.

[@DonovanGG__]

Bro using a cringe af GoT reference💀

[@paulperkins1615]

That is not dead which can eternal lie, / And with strange aeons even death may die.

[@brusso456]

Disney proves that which was never alive (no talent) can not be resuscitated (no franchise).

[@cameroncope3034]

“How can you kill that which has no life” - Eric Cartman

[@Faliat]

Every man has two deaths: when he is buried in the ground and the last time someone says his name.

[@aaronbaron3155]

They could have made a movie about people throwing rocks at a mud puddle and it would have been better than modern star wars

[@janetcameron4652]

To answer the title of this file: No. Dune is not the Star wars killer. Star Wars committed suicide. I should say assisted suicide. Lucas Arts, KK & a host of others slowly , agonizingly killed star wars. Dune, the new one, is not perfect. With that said, it is a monumental task to take those books into film. I have enjoyed both films, as of this posting, & look forward to the rest of the story. These 2 movies is the best to come out of Hollyweird in the past 5-10 years. Which is a very low bar to cross. Not to take away from Dune. So, INHO, no Dune is not the star wars killer. Just my 2 coppers.

[@QuickPoker]

I’m sure Frank Herbert was also inspired by sci fi stories that came b4 him too. Everyone borrows/steals.

[@masonhancock5350]

Name it. The whole concept is pretty damned original and impressive in scope. Heinlein? Nope. Who?

[@QuickPoker]

I cannot name anyone off the top of my head@@masonhancock5350 I'm just saying he had to be inspired by something. Possibly Metropolis. But yeah I don't have any definitive answers for ya.

[@mrzfunk]

@@masonhancock5350 Lawrence of Arabia!

[@mrzfunk]

@@masonhancock5350 Frank Herbert openly talked about being influenced by many authors/works including: Asimovs The Foundation. LeGuins Lefthand of Darkness.

[@rjhemedes]

@@mrzfunkLawrence of Arabia is not sci fi, but yes, Dune was inspired by that historical figure along with Muslim/Islam religion and culture.

[@martineldritch]

Both Gurney Halleck and Han Solo spent time as spice smugglers

[@bozboz4414]

The 2 Dunes are better than the star wars movies in every way except in peddling cheap plastic figures of lame, childish characters...Lucas true genius is marketing kids toys to adults

[@LuckyBastardProd]

Star Wars was for children and so were the toys, those children got older but never grew up and let go of their childhoods. That is not Lucas’ fault. SW wont be any good until people understand what it was, pulp fantasy. Films like The Black Swan (1942), The Adventures of Robin Hood, The Mark of Zorro, The Sinbad pictures etc set in a space fantasy. It wasn’t Shakesphere.

[@MistaZULE]

Still a huge fan of the originals, rogue one and the first season of mandalorian and andor, but dune is for adults and star wars (barring andor) is fkr children. It's not really fair to compare them because dune is a psychedelic explkration of heros and messiahs. Star wars is pew pew laser swords

[@TheChosenWank]

that’s what a dune fan would said ROTS is better than any dune movie

[@danwest9900]

Then perhaps the phrasing should be: Dune part 1 and 2 have given us that which we hoped Star Wars had given us but failed to do so.

[@sentientmustache8360]

@@TheChosenWankRevenge of the Sith is a poorly written mess, like the other two prequels

[@--Paws--]

You forgot Valerian and Laureline, the French sci-fi that led to the characters of Princess Leia and Han Solo's dynamic. Not the character themselves but how they interacted.

[@DamienWalter]

Is there any documentary evidence they were a source?

[@--Paws--]

@@DamienWalter Yes, but I forgot the name of the video. Like your video it talks about the influences of Star Wars. All I remember it was made a couple of years ago; it's quite vague...sorry The way Google is now makes it even harder to search for what I am looking for even what I've watched and commented on. I can't seem to find it at all/Google can't find the video.

[@LukSter18998]

@@DamienWalterread valerian. read valerian or stop calling yourself a science fiction fan.

[@sertaki]

@@LukSter18998I award you the medal of "Master Gatekeeper".

[@EchelonNL]

Dune 2 is an absolute masterpiece. I couldn't believe how hard it actually went. Its been a day now and still I can't think of anything else. Just bought another ticket for coming Saturday❤

[@thebendu33]

Imagine that certain KZbinrs are saying the movie is woke. I tried to defend the movie, but there's no reasoning with them.

[@EchelonNL]

They might very well be lost forever brother ;)

[@thebendu33]

@@EchelonNL sadly

[@M4rt1nX]

Just came home after watching it on Imax with my daughter and on our way home we looked at each other and said that we need to experience it at the theaters again.

[@thebendu33]

@@M4rt1nX yep, I know the feeling

[@fadli55]

Disney is most definitely the Starwars killer.

[@TheSleightDoctor]

The only part I was annoyed that Villeneuve cut out was Alia being born with all the powers and ancestral memories of the Bene Gesserit, due to having been in utero when Jessica drank the water of life. Among the most satisfying scenes in Lynch's version was this impish, blue-eyed little girl dominating the reverend mother, and her screaming "get out of my mind!" while Alia grins gleefully, knowing she could kill the old crone with a single thought. That would have been an even better scene in Villeneuve's hands, but instead Alia isn't even going to be born until Part 3. In Villeneuve's version it's Paul who silences the old witch, causing her to call him an "abomination". In the book and earlier movie, it's the terrifying little girl she calls an "abomination". But overall Villeneuve did a splendid job and both movies so far have been cinematic masterpieces. I just hope Part 3 won't be like the "difficult third album", failing to live up to the lofty expectations he's set up with Part 2. I also worry that the modern moviegoer won't like Paul's descent from revered messiah to tryanical antihero.

[@grantwithers]

Dune 3 is in the works, he just pushed alia back a bit.

[@EmpressLestat]

I saw Dune II in IMAX at a special screening this past Sunday. It is magnificent. Tears just kept leaking out of my eyes - the sheer power coming off the screen was completely gripping. Timothy Chalamet was a force of nature.

[@aidensnow5017]

Timmy's really been popping off on the silver screen ever since he crashed the Game Awards and gave away Elden Ring's award to Bill Clinton... Seem's that invigorated his passion for acting.

[@EmpressLestat]

@@aidensnow5017 Not familiar with that event, but if that was the by product, we'll take it.

[@springsogourne]

I saw it to and I claim that most of the tears were inspired by the score by Hans Zimmer. Without that score the movie would be just an ok film.

[@EmpressLestat]

@@springsogourne For me, it was a combination of certain scenes and the score. I'll admit, music is a primary emotion invoker.

[@bdleo300]

Seriously? I mean, it's a good movie (especially compared to Hollywood cr4p these days) but c'mon, why people have to ridiculously overhype everything...

[@obsidiantain]

Wonderful review. I work in large corporate entertainment, and it’s truly a special intersection of circumstances that brings together talented directors and actors with a budget such as this and not have it be bureaucrated into mush. Always worthy of celebration when one slips through!

[@JakkedDog]

Been reading both Dune and a series called The Gap Cycle, both made me really think less of star wars since those stories felt like "star wars if there were consequences for your actions" and I didn't know that that was what was missing until I read those books

[@jekw23]

I started the Gap series 30 years ago and stopped when I realised I hated every character and just wanted them all to die. Same with Donaldson’s other series. I read 2000 pages despising the protagonist. Shame as his writing is very good and he conjures up some amazing worlds and imagery.

[@isoldam]

@@jekw23 I had the same experience when I tried to read Donaldson's work. I couldn't finish the book because I disliked the characters so much.

[@JakkedDog]

@@jekw23 absolutely fair lol Gap is a hard sell without a doubt, and yeah most of the characters are complete pieces of shit i really only feel bad for... I think Morn is her name. But i do like how the story consistently re-frames itself into a much bigger more dire story.

[@thorinbane]

@@jekw23 I liked the characters they grew from being repellant to being anti heroes. They seemed ordinary people who had terrible things happen to them . One of my favourite series. Read it twice.

[@thorinbane]

@@JakkedDog Angus is a horrid mess, but you have to understand how he was so abused from infantcy. Evil begats evil. He is actually a sympathetic character. I also kinda liked the director that gave angus a chance at redemption, through coersion of course. Its a complex story that no one wears a white hat. In a novel series I don't mind that. For TV not so much. I have seen far too many shoes that aren't escapism and all characters are truly unlikeable. At least for the gap series you get their inner monologue for a better understanding of their actions. Even if you don't agree with those actions, you can perhaps have empathy with why they may do that. We are all frail in some way and the book shows how under the wrong circumstances we can all fail. I truly love this series. Donaldson makes a note about it at the back of his book with regard to the extreme content and violence.. Thomas convenient chronicles where good, but i like some of his "short" stories. He has worked in a few different genre and many don't stray from their niche. His writing is very good IMO. I like his prose even if the content has some people turned off.

[@johnlittle8267]

George Lucas's brilliance was giving it the deep themes but also making it so entertaining for kids. This was on purpose and it is not easy to move a movie that is so good for both kids and adults. I think Dune is going to just be adults - the down side of being more serious and "authentic" is there really isn't any comic relief or as much sense of adventure as with Star Wars. Loved Dune 2, was so well made in every important aspect. I really liked the build up to the end of Part 2.

[@estemelrod3445]

I think that Dune 2 elevates the franchise to LOTR/Harry Potter levels of greatness, even exceeding them in just 2 movies. But everyone can GTFOOH with it killing Star Wars. I'm old enough to have been there for the original Star Wars and Dune in theaters. And I can say that even now they occupy FUNDAMENTALLY different spaces in Sci-Fi, like Star Trek, Battlestar, and game ones like Halo, and Mass Effect do. You could say Dune is Star Wars for grownups (even if it came first). But Georgie created/oversaw something so unique, packaged with so. Many. Cool. Things. that it just burns itself into your imagination: The lightsaber. The Force. The Jedi. The Sith. Bounty Hunters. Clone Troopers. Droids. the samurai/ninja influence, the western, The flippin' LIGHTSABER. Star Wars has RANGE. It can be as cheesy and cartoony and almost whimsical as you like. It can also have REAL gravitas (see Rogue One & Andor for proof). And it is made SPECIFICALLY for movies/visual media. I don't care the sequels suck (they're non-canon in my mind). I don't care that Disney is hit or miss with SW. I'm HAPPY I'm getting all this content that I can skip or consume as I see fit. All that said, I can't believe Denis pulled Dune off so thoroughly that I'm both excited and fearful of what comes next. I thought part one was exceptional. But part 2 is mind-flowingly, holy shit I can't believe I feel this way again good. Dune has become my next favorite franchise with deep lore that I can't help but to dive into. What a time to be alive INDEED.

[@DamienWalter]

Yes. Star Wars occupies the franchise space. Dune is the genuine article. Who is going to want the BigMac now that they have the steak?

[@estemelrod3445]

@@DamienWalter I think that yes, Dune is fine dining, but for me Star Wars is a granny home-cooked meal. There is room for both.

[@pejmansehatpour7838]

IMO the two are not really comparable. There are good and not so good movies in starwars universe as there are in Dune. However, Dune books are simply brilliant socioeconomic/cultural expositions.

[@nicolassalamanca8051]

L take

[@511dydy]

Dune is the OG. Star wars is a woke rubbish now

[@BRAINROTcomps]

Star wars is just Dune for children.

[@joemountains1539]

The corporate Choam video was dead on. Well done!

[@zombiehampster1397]

Dune treads into the darkness of humanity that star wars casually walks past.

[@Darth_Vader_Official]

There’s a difference between “ripping off” and “being inspired by”.

[@rustyshackleford234]

Remember in 2019-2021 when we thought Star Wars was entering a renaissance because of how good the first two seasons of the mandalorian was? Looks like we were dead wrong. Just 3 short years later and the entire Star Wars franchise is like a zombie.

[@DamienWalter]

Mandy also looked like a gimmick show to me. Baby Yoda buying time to cover over the barren imagination ot Disney.

[@danrussell9357]

It wasn't just that the main character had a special sister, the names Alia and Leia sound alike with just the first letter dropped.

[@Fanatticvlog]

How about a world where you can enjoy Star Wars and Dune or Star Trek or all three? Or one in which you can enjoy both Marvel and DC or all five of the IP’s I’ve mentioned? Shocking, right? This tribalism way of thinking should stay in the domain of sports not genre entertainment. It’s the fans fighting amongst themselves which is stupidity at its best.

[@DamienWalter]

"IP"

[@jesustovar2549]

This, this is exactly me and there are many nerds like that.

[@Fanatticvlog]

@@DamienWalter Thanks for the grammar correct. I’ll definitely remember not to pluralise IP in the future. Much appreciated.

[@Stewz66]

​@andrewgillon2763 he's not correcting your grammar, at least that's my take. He's noticing that you are viewing the themes and archetypes through a lens of IP. He's having a mythos conversation which is an origin story that is unfounded (not attributable) as to source. He is identifying Carl Jung as the progenitor of these themes. Classifying them in terms of IP is incongruous with the discussion. Also, Thanos did nothing wrong.

[@tobysharples111]

I think it’s safe to say that dune is to Sci-fi what Lord of the rings is to fantasy. Both genres existed in part before these series but both became the foundation for everything that came after. I’m a huge 40K fan, and yeah it’s clear that dune is the bedrock upon which 40K is built. I hate Star Wars, but calling it a ripoff is like saying that every ‘hero’s journey’ story is an imitation of Greek myth. There are only so many ways to tell a story.

[@Bombrider666]

The theme i find missing in both part 1 and part 2 is the absolute centrality of the spice in the story: without it, no space travel, no mentats, no bene gesserit. The Space Guild is barely mentioned, and the link between spice and sandworms not even considered. Everybody is crazy about spice but they never say why and the reason it's found only on Arrakis never explained. And poor Thufir, forgotten!

[@justinrampert9360]

The guild wasn't mentioned that often in the first book. They really flesh out in Messiah which is where I think Denis will display the entire power struggle with spice, Choam, and spacing guild aside Paul's struggles. But after all, these are complex themes that general audiences may struggle to understand lol

[@Bombrider666]

@@justinrampert9360 yes but some friends of mine who have not read the books didn't understood what was going on with the spice and why everybody wanted it so badly, I suppose many people asked the same question.

[@justinrampert9360]

@@Bombrider666 Understandable. I for one, actually got into the novels after Part 1 because I had a load of questions about the universe and story of Dune haha. But I will say after rewatching part 1 a couple of times and carefully listening to the Dialogue, it's all there. I agree that it should have more emphasis which the character's don't exactly translate through the screen. At the end of the day this is Paul's story, and the spice is only a part of his complex arc. There may be deleted scenes to help further its importance, but we'll never know.

[@redfro4992]

@@justinrampert9360What I enjoyed most about Villenueve is that he has kept the heart of Dune there for the avid reader, you do have to pay attention closely because it's cinema. I appreciated he didn't mash it into dialogue, and I hope he's saving it for the third act/movie.

[@justinrampert9360]

@@redfro4992 Couldn't agree more. Its refreshing having to rewatch a film to get every little detail. I think marvel really screwed up a lot of mundane movie goers attention to detail. Im excited to see the colorful scenery in New Arakeen for Messiah!

[@Hellismary]

Andor is the only Star Wars worth watching, at a time I was excited to see Ahsoka Boba Fett Obi Wan and man was I let down by the Saturday morning cartoon feeling of it all, the fake out deaths, the incompetent villains, zero stakes, zero tension between characters as a whole. Andor is truly a rare gem despite Disney’s recent output

[@andreasmerkel5717]

If you call Andor, you must call "Roque One" too......

[@Himmiefan]

Lucas also copied or was inspired by Tolkein, and that's okay. SWs is different enough so that it doesn't look like a direct copy of Dune. I personally love both.

[@markusfreund6961]

Original Star Wars and Tolkien's LotR are both faithfully accurate reditions of the Hero's Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell in his book The Hero With A Thousand Faces. Dune, on the other hand, was intended as a "deconstruction" of the Hero's Journey. Other commonly known examples of the Hero's Journey include the Odyssey, the Kalevala, Gilgamesh, The Divine Comedy, Parzival, 2001, The Matrix, Avatar, Harry Potter, StarDust, and arguably the New Testament. Saying that Star Wars is inspired by LotR is like saying Parcival was inspired by the Odyssey. They are diifferent renditions of the same, archetypical topic.

[@acerock013]

dune and star wars are totally different stories with different aims and arcs. saying that dune is a the star wars killer when dune gave birth to star wars is giving recreational outrage vibes.

[@mrzfunk]

I think he means the dune movie franchise has shown that movie franchises can still be good. In that sense the reverence for the new dune franchise has killed the frenzy over all the Star Wars content over the last decade.

[@Storyraymond]

What about Princess of Mars? They both ‘ripped off’ this fantastic pulp.

[@eddardstark6554]

I’ve always been a Star Wars fan. However, after seeing Dune 1 for the first time, and being unaware of the books, I turned to my wife and said “this is what the Star Wars sequels should have been like: dark, mysterious, and world building, while also focusing on the lore that came before”. I absolutely HATE everything Disney has done with SW other than Rogue One and Mando seasons 1-2. All else is trash. I’ve also been a fan of the prequels (I was 8 when Menace came out). I’ve played many SW video games, have collectibles, and have read many books (Plagueis being among my favorite). However, after seeing Dune part 2, I’ve done a deep dive into the lore and have started the Frank Herbert books. I’m blown away and it’s amazing. In hindsight, I can definitely see how George Lucas stole a lot (but not all) aspects from Dune. It’s disappointing really, as Dune is much better written and deserves to be on the big screen by passionate and devoted directors and actors. I still like Star Wars, and I’ve had many interesting conversations and thoughts with friends and family in regards to Star Wars in regards with philosophy, sociology, economics, spiritually, destiny/fate/prophecy, etc. But Dune I feel like has many more profound themes. As a historian and philosophy major, I’m intrigued to dive deeper into the can of worms (no pun intended) that Dune is.

[@planckstudios]

In the late 90s I saw Tom Collins speak on teaching the meaning of modern art. 3 examples stuck. In one, gestural outlines of Jungian figures/archetypes were found to proliferate Jackson Pollock's drip paintings. The iconography tracked with his psychiatrists notes. He told his life's story in these paintings - they're decipherable as narratives, not just rhythmic explorations. Was wild to see symbols pop out of the patterns. I like to think Pollock's work resonates because that struggle to find/share our true selves is universal

[@tatopres]

Dune is a masterpiece but it can not overtake Star Wars as the biggest sci fi franchise. Star Wars is just way to marketable and iconic to just fade away. Even if it comes out with medicore shows or movies for the next 10 years, it will always reach a bigger audience.

[@DamienWalter]

"killer"

[@Coroplocs-Chameleon]

​@@DamienWalterWhen something gets too big, your blade will not cut deep enough.

[@pandoodle6197]

the beginning part is just star wars hate at its finest, bro compared ewoks, only appearing and being semi relevant in the third film, to the fremen being probably the most important part of the franchise since the first movie, just star wars hate at its finest 😭🙏

[@ceciliaayala3923]

Thank you for this video. It truly does justice to Dune. When I discovered the elements that had been stolen, I felt a surge of frustration toward Star Wars, as the resemblance was unmistakable. This decade belongs to Dune, and I believe humanity is now prepared for narratives that are richer, deeper, and more complex, transcending the traditional dichotomy of white and black characters.

[@mrmoe110]

It may help Star Wars actually. Hollywood is full of people with no new ideas. Now they can “steal” stuff from Dune and maybe revitalize Star Wars. Maybe

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

Dune is not and cannot be a Star Wars killer. Star Wars is a sincere retelling of the hero’s journey, while Dune is an overly subtle subversion of it. Dune will never have the mass appeal of Star Wars as a result. Dune will never captivate popular culture the way Star Wars has, because Dune is a critique of popular culture while Star Wars is a celebration of it.

[@jamesharmon7733]

I love Dune and I have been waiting for these movies my whole life. But this is pretty harsh to Star Wars, man. It's kinda like Megadeth and Metallica. Megadeth might be more of the "genuine article" of heavy metal. But I wouldn't give a damn about Megadeth if I didn't fall in love with Metallica first.

[@imonit4272]

A Desert Mouse did not kill Star Wars, a Mickey Mouse did…

[@CubanWriter]

Dune is great, but it's hard to make into a franchise because it gets so weird that you'd have to divert completely from the written story to get very far into the series and yet maintain any audience.

[@Quandryification]

This title is silly. DUNE isnt...Catherine Kennedy and Disney are.

[@gmr4life884]

Considering the recent quality of Lucasfim under Kathleen "the force is female" Kennedy, pretty sure a blind kitten has a shot at killing Star Wars.

[@thecollector6746]

Bullshit. Star Wars and Dune have absolutely nothing in common outside of their sci-fi backdrops and I am really getting tired of Dune fanbois repeating this absolutely nonsense.

[@DamienWalter]

BAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a hella dumb comment.

[@ultron374]

Disney is Star Wars killer

[@robertagren9360]

It's the story of Super Mario conquering the Mushroom kingdom.

[@jakemeyer8188]

I have tickets for an IMAX showing today!

[@thebendu33]

I've seen it, come back here to tell me your impressions.

[@johnbernhardtsen3008]

my god did Austin Butler steal the show!first when he tests his new blade was pretty nasty, one can only guess what he would do to that Harkonnen that spoke against him and was brought to his room after he tasted the new blade too!!@@thebendu33

[@jakemeyer8188]

@@thebendu33 Dude.....DUUUUUUDDDEE. I could try to say more, but I'm already just babbling incoherently.

[@thebendu33]

@@jakemeyer8188 hahaha. Welcome to the club 😉 I will go at least a second time, but with my daughter and friends. But I might end up going more than that.

[@mrzfunk]

I just saw part 2 on imax too! I can't believe I watched part one at home instead.

[@Thyinternet]

0:18 the Ewok launched their grand jihad across the known universe after the battle of Endor, killing and subjugating billions in their fervor

[@DamienWalter]

Hail Jub Jub

[@Pituqat]

And Herbert borrowed from Asimov's Foundation. Paul and Hari Sheldon are likewise very similar.

[@RobinJohnstonphotography]

I thought it was rushed, lacked any of the interesting metaphysical elements of the books and was emotionally anticlimactic. It was more entertaining than the first one and it looks beautiful.

[@thalmoragent9344]

DUNE 2 isn't the "Star Wars Killer", Star Wars has already been slain by Disney... but, it shall be Star Wars' cinematic successor.

[@zemlidrakona2915]

As someone who saw the first Star Wars on release, movie-wise there is no comparison. Star Wars was a game changer. I remember going to the theater and being shocked at the lines. People saw it multiple times. I saw it four times myself and I wasn't even that hard core. This was unheard of at that time. Personally I think Dune (the movie) is way overrated, although I did like the book. the editing is sub-par and the story has been massively changed from the source material. However even if you think it's the best thing since sliced bread, it won't have anything like the impact of Star Wars. And as for Star Wars, it killed itself years ago.

[@krono069]

But ultimately Paul IS a hero. He's altruistic, self-sacrificing and wants what is best for the people. That's why he doesn't choose the worm god form his son Leto chooses. Paul's son Leto is the true philosophical question mark behind "what is a hero?"

[@edmonddantes563]

A fascist technocracy? How on earth are the Harkonen fascist, I swear people will just label anything perceived as evil as fascist. “Yeaa that Stalin guy, he was fascist”

[@DamienWalter]

You weren't paying attention.

[@bottlezone]

Does this mean that your list of three great science fiction films has officially grown to four?

[@DamienWalter]

Yes.

[@mrzfunk]

Holy Shit! I was wondering the same thing too! Still waiting for you to do a video essay on how you define "great" sci fi...

[@LilyNovaStarseed]

What are the other 3?

[@paulthiele3102]

So Herbert thoughtfully based his story on Jungian archetypes, but Lucas thoughtlessly stole them? I’m not convinced this video adequately demonstrates the difference between what Herbert did and what Lucas did.

[@DamienWalter]

If you don't understand the difference between solving a problem, and copying somebody else's answers, I can't help you.

[@christophermoonlightproduction]

Thumbs up for the stealth jab at Alien3 at the end of the video. Also, I've been studying Jung for decades now. Although I'm no closer to understanding what he was tapped into, he's always in mind when I create stories.

[@Nr4747]

For me, the biggest difference - aside from all of the incredible film-making that is far beyond Disney's recent standards - is that Dune actually plays its story straight. When people are in mortal danger, they actually act like they're in danger instead of giving us "They fly now ?!"-quips as if they were Deadpool. Not every kind of moment deserves meta-commentary or a wink at the camera !

[@Brolo214]

Risking the worst internet behavior, I gotta say that yes, Disney’s Star Wars stuff is mostly empty garbage. But I’ll be watching The Last Jedi and Andor for the rest of my life. Can’t wait for Dune 2!

[@artofamado]

FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT

[@Jim-kz4zo]

Andor gets a pass lol good show

[@Glotaku]

The Last Jedi is lowkey the best Star Wars film outside of the OT, it was made by a real director who was putting actual artistic effort, also Mando season 1&2 are good

[@ParzivalTheThird]

Last Jedi is equally empty garbage as the rest

[@jakemeyer8188]

AAAHHH LAST JEDI! You're an awful person and deserve terrible things blah blah troll troll blah 😉

[@christopherpumphrey7023]

I want to be careful of hyperbole or recency bias but, I found this Dune movie to be the most photographic movie I have seen. There are so many incredible individual frames in Part 2.

[@frankjennings4489]

I wouldn’t call Star Wars meaningless spectacle. Campbell’s hero’s journey is still meaningful.

[@DamienWalter]

To be meaningful, you have to mean something. Star Wars can mean anything. Which is the same as meaning nothing.

[@frankjennings4489]

​@@DamienWalter I don't think it can mean anything. No one could interpret it as fascist propaganda for example. It has an individualistic, anti-authoritarian message of rising beyond one's circumstances to serve a purpose greater than oneself and become a braver and more capable person in the process. Everyone at some point believed that they could be greater than they are today and serve humanity in a way that they haven't yet. That is why the hero's journey is timeless and resonates with so many people. Dune is infinitely more interesting, especially for an adult audience that has seen that basic story cast three ways to Sunday, but that doesn't mean the story is meaningless.

[@TraderJoe888]

Villeneuve is our Messiah, leading sci/fi Nerd Kingdom out of the darkness of the Star Wars Era. Long live VILLENEUVE!!!!

[@jacobkatzeff]

I’m a big dune fan and a big Star Wars hater. I agree with what you said about Disney not being artists. With that being said, I’ve got to say it’s a miracle that Andor was made - the only piece of Star Wars media that I’ve ever actually enjoyed

[@DamienWalter]

Yes, love Andor.

[@jesustovar2549]

As a young SW fan who is just getting into Dune, thr thing is Andor's showrunner isn't even a Star Wars fan, but even George Lucas liked the series, to the point he called Tony Gilroy to congratulate him, Gilroy felt like "being called by the President".

[@ceciliaayala3923]

In a Screen Rant article, it’s mentioned that Anakin Skywalker shares similarities with Paul Atreides. This parallel extends to Padmé Amidala, who seems to draw inspiration from Chani of ‘Dune’. Notably, Chani is a character who gives birth to twins in the ‘Dune’ novel. Additionally, ‘Star Wars’ character Kylo Ren appears to be inspired by Feyd-Rautha from ‘Dune’

[@TheJohnnyCalifornia]

I think the conclusion is that DUNE is the “Hero’s Journey Killer” more than anything. DUNE the novel came out well after Joseph Campbell’s post war classic in a time when many people realized this hero’s journey business was a crock. Dune essentially is a behind the scenes look at how a eugenically produced “chosen one” is marketed as a “messiah” to the people who’ve spent generations oppressed by the same group behind their “savior.” However by the late 70’s - barely a decade later - people were looking up to Paul Atriedes as a role model, and DUNE inspired the most by-the-book Hero’s Journey in cinematic history. So Herbert went back to DUNE and released a book where his messiah, his Luke Skywalker - had won and turned into a giant Kafkaesque worm and was actually worse than the Emperor who would appear in Return of The Jedi.

[@DarkLadyAthena1]

Spot on. I just discovered your channel. You brilliantly break apart both sagas and give us an excellent analysis of why Dune worked as opposed to most of modern SW and the books remain timeless. I discovered Dune in my teens. I started as a SW fan as a kid. My dad introduced me to the movies. That led me to other scifi and books. Only later did I venture into Dune and took a deepr dive into the ideas that inspired these two. One of the key things you mentioned here is that Dune reads much like something that has already happened. I definitely felt that when I read the novels, especially Dune Messiah.

[@Warmaker01]

The next movie would be entertaining to see casual audience feelings in how Paul Atreides turns out. The first two movies have warnings about it, but I feel many would forget it. What his son Leto II must do that his father was too weak to carry out. The signs have been there all along. The Fremen? Well. 😇 It was fun to see Lady Jessica's transformation after she drank and survived the Water of Life. She had access to the memories of her predecessors which changed her. She went full on Bene Gesserit than she had ever been shown before. Dune doesn't have to be a Star Wars Killer. It has good source material to draw upon, the setting and story has already been made. The challenge is adapting it. Star Wars has been getting butchered since Disney bought the IP from George Lucas. Lucas had his faults, even in the glory days of the Original Trilogy releases. But Star Wars was being helmed by the single vision of George. Now it's a bunch of monkeys in Disney throwing poop all over the walls trying to see what sticks. I've been a Star Wars fan since I saw it in the early 1980s. But not anymore since Disney's been screwing the pooch. Dune does not need that.

[@Ronlei]

Best and most relevant dune 2 related video, should be seen by everybody interested in entertainment today.

[@cernunnos_lives]

Disney is the Star Wars killer. See what happens when passion and love is put into something? See what happens when you don't love what you make? When you want change something rather than make something original? Why didn't Disney just make something original instead of changing an already established IP?

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

Dune and the John Carter of Mars series of books set the template that the adventure serials of the cinema age and later Star Wars followed. Makes sense. I thought the John carter film was OK to Good. It got botched though, Should have used the full name of the book, should have pitched it as the wellspring of all the space opera/science fiction films we loved. Now the book that more or less crystalised the form, it has a good adaptation. May it continue.

[@haydnwr]

Your enthusiasm has made me want to check this out at the cinema despite being underwhelmed by D1. Would love to watch you discussing Zardoz and / or Boorman.

[@faded1to3black]

Dune Part 1 and 2 go hand in hand. 2 uplifts part 1 by a lot to tell the complete story. They should honestly be seen as just one super long movie with an intermission.

[@Prockski]

I would love to know your view after you see it.

[@mrzfunk]

If you didn't like the first the second won't change your mind. Its do great because its stayed true to itself and to the theme of the book.

[@champamoore]

p1 was simply the appetizer and setup for the meal. p2 is def worth experiencing on the big screen!

[@ontaka5997]

I know that this is a reference to the recent Dune film. However, even with all its flaws, David Lynch's Dune was a palette changer for me back in the mid-80s after the world was filled with the "Jolly Happy" Star Wars sci-fi. It's not that I disliked Star Wars but I wanted to see something different. I was drawn into this dark sci-fi of Dune in the cinema back then. I then went on to read the first 3 books which was another mindblower.

[@dirtyharry1881]

At last, someone truly understands the deeper meaning of Star Wars: Sell more toys. Jokes aside, Star Wars has one genius behind it: John Williams (yes, yes, I know he copied Stravinsky and Holz, but he did it only as a great composer can).

[@DavidCDrake]

Beautiful essay! I'm impressed with your rate of work and hope you can maintain it. After all, the content must flow...

[@emadSciFi]

I don;t think Star wars is as effected by Dune as people think. The design for Java the Hut for instance wasn't done by Lucas himself, and Java originally was human in the famous deleted scene!!

[@mlts9984]

It would be perfectly appropriate to give the Disney treatment to everything written by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson. It would probably still be better than Star Wars too.

[@DamienWalter]

Let's hope they don't.

[@beategeibel66]

Wow, just found your page. This is a brillant deconstruction. Thank you. One thing to add, Dune would not have been written without Assimovs Foundation.

[@mrzfunk]

Or without Lawrence of Arabia (7 Pillars of Wisdom).

[@fredkelly6953]

Lucas used elements that were present in Dune but the stories are ideologies apart. Star Wars is the Heroes Journey whilst Dune is a cautionary tale. The tropes are common to all Sci-fi, aliens, spaceships, galaxy spanning empires.

[@trillioncrowns]

the phantom menace was more entertaining than dune 2

[@DamienWalter]

It may well be, but entertainment is a very low way to judge art.

[@trillioncrowns]

@@DamienWalter true, but just look at all the talking parts in dune that led to nowhere,, yet simple scenes showing technology are so good and so few

[@BunnyNiyori]

You don't really know Dune until you read all of it. There are a lot of books. I will say I enjoyed the movie on its own merits. Great acting, great drama, and I didn't get force fed tons of CGI. I compare it to Larence of Arabia. An epic you can watch more than once.

[@WisdomThumbs]

{SPOILER ENDING ALERT} WARNED WARNED WARNED The ending fight proves Paul was prescient all along. Watch Paul’s hand when the camera focuses on it during his explanation of the “narrow way through” to Jessica. He does that exact motion again to plant his dagger in Feyd, but it happens offscreen after he distracts Feyd by grabbing the Emperor’s blade. The Emperor’s blade was meant for Paul’s heart, but Paul only needed to slow it down to pull his own knife out of his own ribs, as an excuse to show some amount of pain. NOTE: at the last second he redirected it sharply to the right to only pierce his left shoulder. Paul exploited the behaviors that were emboldened by the Atreides officer in Feyd’s birthday battle. He consciously re-enacted Feyd’s victory, knowing he wasn’t strong and fast enough to best the man otherwise. And in so doing, Paul proved himself the ultimate master of pain, strategy, and ultimately his power of mind. Such ruthless conduct. I was surprised and thought it a vision at first, or a betrayal of the ending, until I realized what Paul’s hand did offscreen.

[@UntiltedName]

Calling something the [franchise] killer is silly. Games tried to do it for WoW for 2 decades now and continually failed. IPs like that kill themselves while continuing to beat their own dead horses for decades. Which clearly Star Wars has done. It didn't need Dune to do that. Dune is merely filling a small part of that 'power vacuum' if you will.

[@DamienWalter]

"franchise" "IP"

[@patrickday4206]

Beware charismatic leaders i had a hard time not saying it loudly at the end of the movie in the movie theater

[@mrc1500]

I can't watch Star Wars because I outgrew it. It's written for children and adults with the minds of children. It isn't dark enough and seems to be designed as a vehicle to sell merchandise.

[@daisychainpocket]

Did you watch andor? It’s really worth it

[@mrc1500]

@@daisychainpocket I did. And it really wasn't on the whole. Though I did really enjoy the scene in which Skarsgård's character gave the interdiction cruiser the finger.

[@joechip4822]

I very much wish people would appreciate the short form S.F. more, like some of the great short stories that 'Love & Death and Robots' set into pictures. Being an avid S.F. reader for ober 40 years now, I noticed that fans who only read books with at least 600 pages that are part of a series tend to often lack any refined taste and think 'more of the same is always better'. This very rarely proofs to be true in the end...

[@DarthEjsmont]

Sorry, mate, but I don't think we understand Star Wars the same way. Herbert and Lucas used similar ideas but they wanted to tell a different story for a different purpose. As you already explained Herbert well. Let me just note that Lucas story is to educate children and to show them good and evil in an understandable way. What Disney does to it, is a different story. But also, Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney because he wanted to spend his last years with his little daughter, not to gain some ultimate riches. Lucas and Herbert are to me two geniuses with completely different purpose. I don't see a reason to turn them against each other.

[@DamienWalter]

"Star Wars is Dune for kids"

[@DarthEjsmont]

​@@DamienWalter From a certain point of view, yes. Thanks to that SW is also much more heartwarming. I like Dune very much but on most of the days, I would choose Star Wars. Dune touches me on an intellectual level but Star Wars touches the heart and the inner kid more.

[@pinkgrahmik]

I've always thought Star Wars was overrated. I have my Star Wars, finally

[@briandain8432]

I had a moment watching Dune part 2, in the beginning when the worm comes to dispose of the Sardukar, it just dawned on me SARLACC! Then everything else fell in place. Instead of a Psychedelic Spice a Fuzzy Force, but the messiah in the desert who has Twins, who's son Saves/Dooms the Galaxy... Maybe Hoth was just get away from the Desert, just to go back in ROTJ. George just can't help himself. And Star Wars is Dead now, so Long Live DUNEverse!

[@gman3901]

Dune isn't the Star Wars killer. Disney is.

[@feonjun]

Funny thing - Paul didn't save humanity but created a path for his son Leto II to save humanity. It's similar to how Anikin set a path for Luke, although unintentionally. I saw Dune Part 2 twice. First in standard and the 2nd time in IMAX. I loved it, but to proclaim that it's a Star War killer is a bit hyperbolic. I killed Disney Star Wars; that I would agree.

[@DamienWalter]

Leto doesn't save humanity.

[@feonjun]

@@DamienWalter He didn't? I confess; I only read up to Children of Dune. As far as God Emperor of done, I only read clip-notes. I knew he was a tyrant with a purpose.

[@fredishoes]

I dont think dune is the star wars killer because one it took 4 movies and a elevision show to make it what it is now alot of people grew up on star wars. Dune on the other hand is just now learning to walk.

[@Matthewwithers33]

Dune didn’t kill Star Wars Disney did that. They just now have a decent film that they can blame as a scapegoat

[@CitizenScott]

Part Two is an awesome movie, but an objective failure of adaptation. Villeneuve swapped Herbert's intentional ambiguity for his own individual interpretation. The film is propaganda, not art. 10:40 Case in point. Paul WAS a Hero. Frank Herbert explicitly said this numerous times. "It's my contention that the difference between Hero and Anti-Hero is where you stop the story." The entire point of Dune from beginning to end is not to invert archetypes, but to zoom out and view the world they inhabit from a wider lens. Sadly, Villeneuve did not understand this at all.