DUNE Sayyadina Explained - Dune Lore Deep Dive

[@secretsofdune]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the people who still engage with my posts/videos and drop comments. You're helping to keep this channel alive and I really appreciate that. Long live the fighters

[@neilmurphy966]

Istislah!!! 😍

[@neilmurphy966]

We will surely all post as long as we breathe lol!

[@secretsofdune]

@@neilmurphy966 Thank you!

[@neilmurphy966]

@@secretsofdune an idea I had was if u looked into the Chakobsa in Part Two eg the words Paul uses for "Green Paradise" etc.. there must be Arabic roots? But also imo I thought I heard some ancient Egyptian etc 😍

[@secretsofdune]

@@neilmurphy966 The Chakobsa in the movies is an abomination 😅 video coming on that soon. Basically no Arabic in it apart from the odd one here or there "Mahdi" etc.

[@commandZee]

Thanks, I love learning the origins and pronunciations of the Arabic and Islamic terms used in the books. Please keep the content flowing, it is greatly appreciated! 🙏

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks for watching! I will do!

[@sprucy434]

Frank Herbert served in the U.S. Navy-on a ship in the the Middle Eastern waters.

[@secretsofdune]

He was very well read and loved Middle Eastern history. It definitely shows in his world building.

[@dyar_edits]

In arabic sayyadina-سَـيدنا means 'our lord' - 'our master' it's funny because like you said it's like a role in freman and the role is bein a master or lord.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

What was Paul’s childhood like on Caladan? Did he have friends his own age? Did he have friends that weren’t his father’s employees?

[@neilmurphy966]

🤔the book makes it pretty clear that he didn't as it says the risks of assassination were too great..hence his reliance of the three great teachers; imo his isolation like that makes him more susceptible to the experiences on Arrakis..he seems to yearn for company and he is readily drawn to female company ie Chani.

[@secretsofdune]

No, he had no friends. His only friends were really his mentors who were older than him. The closest thing to a friend would have been Duncan Idaho, but he was not his age.

[@kristineclevenger6705]

Remember that Paul was already dreaming about the Fremen - especially Chani - when he was on Caladan. His future was seemingly already prepared. Plus he knew instinctively how to fasten his stillsuit at the ankles. My guess is that he had experienced a previous life or lives on Arrakis. Being alone with his mentors & master teachers, including his mother, allowed him to fully engage in his training. This prepared him for his life on Arrakis.

[@no_no_just_no]

While there is a schism in the Dune fandom between Franks original books and encyclopedia Vs Brian's and k. Anderson's extended universe and I'm firmly on one side.... There's allegedly a book where pre-dune Paul Atreides runs away to join a space circus and probably makes many friends and learns some important lessons about "girls", growing up, responsibility and friendship.

[@katmandoism]

No.

[@pythonxz]

I always come back to your videos to be calmed and get my Dune dose.

[@serenitymetal]

Impressive, such joy in learning lore of Dune even after all these years of being a fan. The origins of word's used really does carry meaning on the world building.

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks I’m really glad your enjoyed it. Yeah Frank Herbert’s world building is full of in depth meaning which I love exploring.

[@thomaswatson1420]

Amazing level of detail as always!

[@secretsofdune]

Much appreciated thank you!

[@jeniallenby8389]

thank you brilliantly researched and presented as always

[@secretsofdune]

Thank you Jeni, glad you enjoyed it. These deep dives are more in line with the book I'm writing on Dune to help navigate the world that Frank Herbert put together.

[@gmonorail]

these videos and their context are always so fascinating

[@secretsofdune]

Glad you think so. Just trying to show how "deep the rabbit hole goes."

[@muslimresponse103]

the amount of detailed information from islam that Frank Herbert used in the Dune novel is crazy!

[@secretsofdune]

Absolutely, it’s astounding really how much of it is in there.

[@peetiegonzalez1845]

So much depth. There's a reason it ranks way up there as one of the greatest sci-fi novels of all time.

[@secretsofdune]

@@peetiegonzalez1845 Worldbuilding at its finest really.

[@di3486]

It is such a pity that so little of that richness was used in the newest movie. Even the Arabic inspiration for the Fremen language.

[@secretsofdune]

@@di3486 I agree, even what made it in to the movies was used very sparingly like the mentats for example.

[@di3486]

Chani was training to be a Sayyadina. Such disappointment not seeing that aspect of her in the newest movie.

[@secretsofdune]

I missed that too.

[@Sab_MJsMama]

She was too grumpy and pissed off all the time to be a worthy Sayyadina 🤪

[@di3486]

@@Sab_MJsMama in the movie definitely😂

[@Leonhart_93]

Yup, they were too preoccupied to putting ideas in the mind of the audience instead of actually following the story 😂 Chani acted like Paul was the worst or something, completely ignorant of the fact that he pretty much never had any better choices at any point.

[@gracefasiku6885]

This is a well researched video essay. Keep it up 👏🏾👏🏾

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks I appreciate it. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@TheMimiSard]

I really appreciate the deep analysis of the Arabic origins behind Herbert's wordage.

[@sweetloveelmo]

So sophisticated, thank you.......and Prana Bindu has roots in Hinduism.

[@secretsofdune]

Very kind of you thank you. Yes that’s true!

[@Rauruatreides]

Yeah, Dune is a hybrid of all sorts of religious symbolism and ideas, which makes it really interesting. Most sci-fi seems to assume that religion will just disappear, but as history, and even some current events tell us, this is a foolish notion.

[@sweetloveelmo]

@@Rauruatreides The Force from Star Wars is likely to agree with you and I guess there's even a connection between Prana Bindu and Jedi abilities.

[@sweetloveelmo]

Baby Yoda on the Seeing Stone knows best.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Another question could Lady Jessica theoretically adopt a daughter and train her to do all the bene gesserit skills?

[@secretsofdune]

She could, but that would probably go against the Bene Gesserit order also. She was supposed to have a daughter, but chose to have a son because her Duke wanted an heir. She already defied the order, but adopting a girl and training her may be frowned upon by the Bene Gesserit as the genetics of the girl would need to be looked at to determine if she should be trained in such ways or not.

[@neilmurphy966]

She does pass on her training to the Corrino (male) heir in Children of Dune tho!! He's adopted into the broader family?

[@shanenolan5625]

She could educate her , she might seem like a bg , if the child's mother was bg she probably would be raised by the sisterhood. . Most don't. But they might find a talented child with some dna. Offspring of a wild reverend mother Say a bg sister died . The dna might be there fir hundreds of years

[@takekammuri]

I love this channel as it gives me insights that I would have never ever glimpsed without the guidance of others more familiar with Arabic culture, but I think the sayyadina vs sayyadituna mystery has a simpler explanation provided by Ockham's Razor: Frank Herbert was a westerner and he liberally mixed all sorts of things into his magnum opus, drawing on all sorts of cultures, including his own. Sayyadina to a Westerner imbued with acculturation from Indo-European languages simply sounds like a feminine word, on account of its ending in -a. Frank Herbert did not restrict himself to words of Middle Eastern extraction only, as evidenced by him employing words such as "Missionaria Protectiva", ornithopter, or the "Orange Catholic Bible" (great mixture for anybody familiar with the Irish troubles). Author slip-up, if you ask me.

[@secretsofdune]

Glad you enjoy the channel, and that is a very interesting and fair point you make. Perhaps in his mind the male version would have been “Sayyadin” for example. I chose to give Herbert the benefit of the doubt as I know which books he drew from (for the most part) when selecting these terms for Dune. Many of those books do differentiate between male and female Arabic words and go into detail. As he also had Arab friends according to his own words, they were only a phone call away if he had any doubts. That’s why I didn’t really go down the road of “he could have been wrong.” Instead I though to explore the consequence of his word choice. Having said that, I won’t be able to get “Sayyadin” out of my head now haha!

[@neilmurphy966]

In Part Two, when Ramallo touches Jessica's face she seems joyous,..cud part of reason be that Ramallo recognizes some of the features as of Mohiam's.. and Ramallo and Mohiam were said to maybe have worked together (non canon sources). Her use of the Voice at "Drink!" seems a BG thing and not a Fremen Sayyadina trait so BG side to her seem stronger, and out of place? I still can't work out how the BG missionaries in the South managed to contact those Offworld as Irulan says.. they had more resources hidden from the Fremen than they knew? It seems disingenuous to a true Sayyadina where truth and honesty were part of the Zensunni teaching?

[@secretsofdune]

Yeah one of my theories was that the Sayyadinas post Bene Gesserit manipulation knew of the Bene Gesserit manipulation and carried on the tradition knowing that, so they perhaps used Bene Gesserit teachings which were passed on from that Bene Gesserit who seeded the culture.

[@neilmurphy966]

As Chani stood watch over the rite of Paul trying to ride the sandworm she was in a way recording the events.. imo this history of experiences is good contrast to the kind of interpretive histories and so subjective that Irulan and much of the Imperium read and wrote about?

[@secretsofdune]

I believe the Fremen kept historical record through oral traditions too which makes it interesting.

[@neilmurphy966]

@@secretsofdune Dune seems to show how history can be a competition to tell the most complete and accurate.. and how unstable the truth can be, as Irulan states. 😉

[@neilmurphy966]

@@secretsofdune he or she who controls the narrative has the real power.. events in today's age can confirm this 😉

[@MrDoctorMabuse]

Any reason you place the emphasis on "Ya" and not "Din" like most of the films? Another very good video, thank you as always.

[@secretsofdune]

Good question. Yes indeed, the Proper way to say the word in Arabic is the way I pronounce it. The movies technically say it wrong, but they pick and choose how to say things anyway in the films (the new ones anyway).

[@authenticNL2]

Just like Harkonnen in the new movies as well.

[@_kmCarter]

Thank you for this breakdown; I love learning about the connections of this lore with earth religion.

[@secretsofdune]

My pleasure, thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@gmonorail]

Orange Catholic Bible (OCB), also known as the Koranjiyana Zenchristian Scriptures, the Accumulated Book, or the Zenchristian Navakoran

[@gszd55]

Very interesting, such a rich interweaving of culture and imagination

[@elizabethdavis1696]

I have a question if Paul had gotten a girl pregnant on Caladan but was on Arrakis before she found out would he find out about the baby at the same time that he found out about his harkonnen grandfather?

[@steampunkskunk3638]

I suspect he would not know. The spice gave him access to the memories of his ancestors, and therefore the memories of those who knew who his Grandfather was. his ancestors would not know if he had got a girl on Caladan pregnant.

[@secretsofdune]

If he wasn't told initially through physically sending a message to him then yes, because he took the water of life by that point, but he may have had visions of it prior to that due to exposure of the spice anyway.

[@secretsofdune]

@@steampunkskunk3638 Paul had the ability to see that Gulild ships had arrived through his prescience. I don't see why he couldn't have other such foresight too.

[@The_Arn_Man]

Of course

[@user-aRb00d3r]

​@@secretsofdune foresight is not 'knowing', while "ancestor memory" certainly is. I have a "fan theory" btw that there were no "golden" path, but just dictatorship that led to one and only path. that was made by one strong and smart dictator, but still. what were the "bad paths" he was saving the people from - we will never know.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Was there allowed to be more than one sayyinada at the same time?

[@secretsofdune]

In the book, no. There was only one exclusively chosen Sayyadina, making her very important. The films changed that for whatever reason.

[@kristineclevenger6705]

This is interesting Dune lore you’ve shared with us. Jessica easily moved into the role of Sayyadina for the Fremen. It all seemed perfect, & I enjoyed seeing the women surrounding her. They wore similar head attire but didn’t carry the same status as Jessica. Do you think they were Bene Gesserit in training or something equivalent in the Fremen culture? I’m thinking about Jessica’s mother & that she must have been a Bene Gesserit . S of D, do you know if Jessica’s conception was a planned event with Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, similar to Lady Margot Fenring’s union with Feyd Rautha?

[@secretsofdune]

The women surrounding Jessica are supposed to be Sayyadinas too, something I don't really agree with as it removes the exclusivity and importance of Jessica's role. I'll probably go more into detail on that in my future ultimate review. As for the conception, I'm not entirely sure but if memory serves, it was a planned event but I think that information was from the expanded Dune books, not Frank Herbert's original 6 books.

[@NobleRaider2747]

​@secretsofdune in the expanded universe, Jessica was Mohiam's second child- the first child that Mohiam had by the Baron was born with a birth defect and so was euthanized; angered by her use of blackmail to get him to conceive a child for the BG's plans the first time, the second time around became an entirely non-consensual encounter thanks to Piter de Vries' help- Jessica was the result

[@ayoubelalami8118]

Dude your arabic pronunciation Is good

[@secretsofdune]

Thank you very much. Are you Moroccan?

[@mii481]

I do not find this very surprising. I mean, as in, I can see that the future of this world has taken things from now. Even we, in the age, have a lot of things adapted from thousand of years ago. We might alter them slightly as time moves on, but the influence is still there. So that is why I love this type of SF. You can sense the history and ideas of a very old world, adapted into something new, far into the future.The best SF has some hint of grounded reality to it.

[@secretsofdune]

Definitely agree!

[@womad]

Thank you, Frank Herbert, for showing and appreciating very important concepts in Islam. The whole Verse of The Elephant, is very much needed to be understood today.

[@1984-i1w]

another fantastic video!

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks, appreciate it. Glad you liked it.

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

Looking forward to this premiere! 🧿🧿

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks for that!

[@dwoncrawford5823]

Women are truly a great power in this universe. They create men ( we only grow up because of women) and they can destroy men. Just like in real life.

[@shanenolan5625]

I didn't receive a notification yet but saw it on twitter fyi

[@secretsofdune]

Thank you for letting me know. Even though I premiered it at least half an hour early, it’s sad to hear that. KZbin has been declining though for me. Low view count, no notifications to subscribers, no monetary gain at all. It’s been tough trying to keep this ship afloat. I’m still trying my best though. I will make extra posts on KZbin in the community tab just in case before premiering next time.

[@shanenolan5625]

@@secretsofdune it's terrible. They suspended me this week for alleged hate speech, never told me what I said. ( I can only guess but it wasn't anything you would think was hateful) ( something political, something involving a child I said was inappropriate) But creators and users are unhappy. I was just speaking with a lady , somone was taking her content whole and claiming to be her. She is not monetised, this person is ( no help from team KZbin) Or another was demonstrated, gor mouths and got it back then partner program, then lost it for the same thing meeting all the tos and still getting punished. Several good creators I'm aware of have quit or gone to different platforms. One guy he built a very successful channel. Grew incredibly quickly and then they used atomics. 30 k yo nothing.. his heart was broken he said what's.the point He comes on friends channels friends livestreams with his personal account

[@secretsofdune]

@@shanenolan5625 Really sorry to hear that. Have you been able to get it back? It's becoming incredibly difficult and toxic to creators now. What happened to that 30k account exactly? They shut it down completely?

[@shanenolan5625]

@@secretsofdune thank you , yes I made a ? Complaint. Wrote them and git it back , about 30 something hours later Oh it definitely can be toxic or behind the scenes drama . Backbiting envy This guy , he did books , gammer of thrones a bit of star wars. He worked with other channels like editing or clips. Often to help friends. There would be endless copyright problems . Fair use stuff. Reused content nonsense. He still works with other channels. Like he has friends with small channels. But most have day jobs or family commitments time is often the enemy part of it is interest or fun and community which they can't take away from you. Support from people donations or encouragement helps. Part of him just enjoys the subject It's just mske it work financially is a bitch or the engagement. Or shadow banning. It sounded like he had tried to get it back and keeps getting rejected. Somone else was doing very well , gave a personal political opinion. That they said breaks community guidance or tos . Which is very vague it was Pete in the sky . They removed it and anything like it made no difference. Gibe a little power to certain people or bureaucracy ( Frank had a lot to say about that )

[@secretsofdune]

@shanenolan5625 thank God you got it back! I’ve had several months of demonetization and lost a lot because of their stupidity, all of this stunted growth due to algorithm issues etc I probably would have reached 100k by now. I might have to consider moving elsewhere myself in the end or just make videos on Patreon. Really sad how they push people away from the platform.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Was it acceptable for a sayyinada to have children AFTER she became the reverend mother?

[@neilmurphy966]

If after she had taken the Water of Life to be a full R.M. then no.. as risk of abomination then

[@lightuponlight42]

لسان الغيب

[@kigas24]

Kind of nitpicking here but Sayyidina isn't the plural form of Sayyid in Arabic, Sadah is the masc. plural form of Sayyid. I understand in Dune they're speaking Chakobsa not Arabic but you're talking about the Arabic origins of the words in your video so it's a bit confusing at the end if you're speaking about Arabic (which is what I assume) or Chakobsa. E.g., at 9:36 you say Sayyiduna Abu Bakr, that translates to "our master Abu Bakr", but his title is just Sayyid Abu Bakr. Sayyid = sir Sayyidina = our sir Sadah = sirs Asayduna = our sirs Sayyidah = ma'am Asayidat = ma'ams

[@secretsofdune]

Did I say plural or male form? I honestly can't remember. If so then you are right of course! I did say that Sayyidina means "our master" though, I remember that. But this is still a great comment. Thank you for nit-picking, corrections are important.

[@kigas24]

​@@secretsofdune At 10:11 it says Sayyid is the singular form of Sayyidina, which in Arabic is incorrect (in that Sayyidina is not a plural form, it is correct that Sayyid is singular) but may be correct in Chakobsa which is why I mentioned it was confusing for me. Sayyid is "master" and Sayyidina is "our master". Sayyid Abu Baker = Master Abu Bakr while Sayyidina Abu Bakr = Our Master Abu Bakr. I should've included that in my original comment, my bad! Like I said, just nitpicking. Love your content and the deep dives into the Arabic origins.

[@secretsofdune]

@@kigas24 I meant to write male form not singular. Thanks for the correction, luckily I can blur that mistake out which I will do.

[@secretsofdune]

It may be that way in Chakobsa, there really isn't much info on Chakobsa itself in terms of how the language functions. I would say it is almost exactly Arabic and works like Arabic, so yeah. I was actually meaning it from the Arabic sense, not the Chakobsa sense. Thanks for bringing that to my attention though and thanks for watching, appreciate it.

[@heltonjorge5877]

Gratidão 🇧🇷

[@katehunter538]

Good. But check your pronunciation of the word "awry."

[@secretsofdune]

It is awry like uh-rye as in astray? I didn't know it was meant to be that word. Thanks for bringing it to my intention. That's embarrassingly wrong haha.

[@katehunter538]

@@secretsofdune There's nothing to be embarrassed about. Every single thing every one of us knows, we learned one bit at a time. The point is to get it right (keep learning), not to BE right. And that's what you're doing. "The best laid plans of mice and men go oft awry." Or in the original Scottish: "the best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley." See, now you know!

[@muslimresponse103]

I watched the film on an imax screen in London and the cinematography was amazing but the dialogue was no good and they butchered the few Arabic words. in movies, dialogue is everything!

[@di3486]

Agree 100%. The script was mediocre.

[@yerbamate2001]

No

[@nizanklinghoffer4620]

Can't wait for the Buddha's redemption of the Lucifer religion

[@secretsofdune]

I think you've misunderstood what Frank Herbert did. He placed Zen along with Sunni "Zensunni" for the Fremen because he came to the conclusion that there is a lot of good in the Islamic faith, so much so that it is similar to the Zen in Zen Buddhism. He wouldn't have done that if he found Islam to be Luciferian and he certainly wouldn't have attached Islam to Zen Buddhism if he thought so, as he fond of Zen Buddhism too.

[@nizanklinghoffer4620]

@@secretsofdune what I found most strange was that the Zensufi we're villains after all.. I was thinking of Sufism as a redeemed form of islam.

[@nizanklinghoffer4620]

@@secretsofdune also fun to think what he could have done with Mahayana 😅

[@secretsofdune]

@@nizanklinghoffer4620 That must be something from the expanded Dune books because I only know of Zensunni and the Tleilaxu were Sufi-Zensunni. I think the Tleiaxu are probably the most misunderstood group. They do have some questionable practises though.

[@nizanklinghoffer4620]

@@secretsofdune I never understood them tbh. What do you make of them?

[@YolandaHalfAlmonde]

I love this movie is so much of style over substance they barely talk about the plot, so you need online people to explain it, which means you get more engagement from dumbo consumer sheep that like these trash low effort panorama shots😂