Languages in Denis Villeneuve's DUNE Movies

[@alanakmassey]

Thanks for drawing attention to this, Herbert was 100% aware of Chakobsa that he pulled directly from Sabres of Paradise which mentions a few but it would be hard for him to access the whole language (it’s not so much a super secret coded warrior language as pig Latin of an Adyge dialect which is a Caucasian isolate). Anyway, so much more to say but glad to see Herbert’s inspiration from the Caucasian nested defense cultures he studied (we appreciate the nod, however butchered)

[@secretsofdune]

Yes, many elements of Sabres of Paradise inspired both the Atreides and the Fremen in Frank Herbert's Dune. It even inspired the Imperium itself. Thanks for the generous Super Thanks

[@JackMyersPhotography]

@@alanakmassey It was first mentioned in an article in the LA Review of Books, when part one was just out. That article is a good read.

[@alanakmassey]

@@JackMyersPhotography yes! That’s the article which inspired me to stop trying to explain the ins and outs of north Caucasus linguistic isolates and ways they can be legibly scrambled that are relatively easy for speakers to understand but wholly unintelligible (well beyond how impenetrable they already are if you don’t grow up speaking them) and use the shorthand “pig Latin” which basically sums it up. The Fullerton archive and many academic publications in linguistics and literature cover Herbert’s expansive study of the Islamic diaspora and its language and ritual and political variations but they’re regrettably difficult or expensive to access outside specific academic research sub-groups.

[@JackMyersPhotography]

@@alanakmassey Thank you.

[@vladh5192]

“Hmbrgurrr, chezbrgurr… lrg fryyyyyyz… omnomnom rngzzzz toooo…” “That will be 22.95 solarii, please.”

[@sectorgovernor]

Frank Herbert wasn't a Tolkien and honestly it is more realistic if languages 20 000 years later aren't similar to recent languages, however they can be based on recent languages. Peterson still could have used Arabic as a base just he had to change the words to become less recognizable.

[@secretsofdune]

You’re right, Herbert wasn’t a language creator but he was a lover of languages. I think the bene gesserit being able to conjure up ancient knowledge and their prevalence throughout the imperium makes the presence of Hebrew, French and others being able to be present 20k plus years in the future abd realistic for that universe.

[@Yantryman]

He used Chinese ... without a back story on how it survived for 20 000 years, its just there.

[@egemensentin]

Languages that are tightly bound to religions tend to be preserved without much change.

[@Yantryman]

@egemensentin Arabic - Islam, let's not disregard this. Cheers!

[@secretsofdune]

@@egemensentin A great point. And this is actually proven in Dune itself. Frank Herbert wrote that the Qur'an was preserved among the Pundi rice farmers of Caladan. That means the Arabic of that Qur'an was preserved too, 20,000 years in the future.

[@user-ks8ux4ig6b]

It's not surprising to me that the studios did not want to go anywhere near the islamic holy war association. Perhaps even going as far as having fear of some kind of random violence associated with the next film

[@secretsofdune]

Fear is the mind-killer.

[@1984-i1w]

or maybe they're just kinda racist

[@Emanon...]

By taking that stand, they've actively written out any references to the lore accurate heritage of the Fremen. And the most important names and titles are still Arabic, even though they deleted the lore. It became political when they chose to change some of these things from the books.

[@Esseker639]

@@secretsofdune I agree with you, we (the audience) lost a lot (artistically, linguistically etc.) due to Villeneuve's/Warner Bros "creative" decision. However, I can at the same time understand it. It is definitely, as you say, islamophobia. But not islamophobia in a strict dictionary meaning - dislike or hatred toward Islam/Arabic culture. Rather it's literal phobia - fear. Given that Dune is filled with religious/linguistic themes connecting Herbert's Fremen and real life Arabs (desert life, zensunni, Prophet, holy Jihad ...etc), it is only a matter of time (when, not if) some crackpot will find it offensive and whip the gullible crowd in to a hateful, destructive frenzy. And from there to Charlie Hebdo 2.0 is not a long road, sadly. So, studio deciding rather to leave that can of worms unopened, can be understood (imho). On a lighter note, I was pleasantly surprised that Herbert has woven in Dune some small part of my native tongue. Apparently it survived 20k years, or so. :) So, first time I read Dune was long time ago (late 80's, I think), and it was translation from original english to croatian-serbian. Because of that, it went unnoticed, until much later I read the book in original english, where the phrase stood out like a proverbial sore thumb. :) It's a part where Jessica and Paul arrive to Sietch Tabr, for the first time. "Deep within the cave, someon began chanting: "Ima trava okolo! I korenja okolo!" Jessica translated silently: These are ashes! And these are roots!" The funeral ceremony for Jamis was beginning." Funny part is, Jessica (Herbert?) is translating wrong! Trava means grass (or herbs, depending on the context), not ashes. Deliberate or accidental mistake by Herbert, don't know, but was always curious about it. :) PS This could be the source, changed by Herbert I guess: sacred-texts.com/pag/gsft/gsft12.htm

[@iambenk]

I understand the disappointment, but I also completely understand the decision to have as little Arabic as possible in the film. Whereas I am sure Frank Herbert picked Arabic very thoughtfully, I still can live with the almost absence of it in the movie.

[@felixhaggblom7562]

I've always read galach to derive from "galactic", as it is the galactic standard language

[@secretsofdune]

Interesting take never thought of it like that.

[@SamlovesLulu]

@@secretsofdune That's because you're entirely too busy deciding for yourself what Herbert thought. A little research would have yielded that little tidbit. In the realms of historical lore surrounding Herbert and his works, that fact is common knowledge. It is silly mistakes like that that separate the inferior, amateur work of most creators on KZbin from more serious work of the same kind. In school you learn, among other things, how to do proper research. If I had to guess, I say you've read the novels, and watched exactly three movies. That constitutes the extent of your research. Fan boy.

[@secretsofdune]

​@@SamlovesLulu I was simply engaging with the commenter and being kind, though at the time I read the comment, I genuinely didn’t recall it and I haven’t come across that point in years, consumed by a sea of research which you so graciously claim that I do not do. I didn’t ever claim in the video that the word Galach is SUPPOSED TO BE Gaelic or that it comes from the word. I said it evokes the word as in, it sounds like it a little. And the reason I said that was that I have the near impossible task of trying to link these new movies to the source material, to keep new fans engaged. The point had nothing to do with the meaning or origin of the word Galach itself. Let me know which channels you consider more serious, perhaps I can learn from them. If you believe making a KZbin channel is as easy as you think, perhaps you should try making one of your own. Otherwise, perhaps it’s best to leave it to those who’ve had years of experience.

[@SamlovesLulu]

@@secretsofdune You seek success on a platform that is maybe the worst example of humans engaging in bad behavior with full knowledge and intent ever created. If you want to rise above that reputation, you have to be better. I CAN point you to channels that do better. But, you can also find them yourself, with a little RESEARCH. I am angry because I have to wade through an ocean of pure garbage every day to find a handful of good videos to watch. WHY ARE YOU ANGRY? Aren't you even intelligent enough to realize how useless being defensive is? Either do better or don't. It's your life, Sparky.

[@toi_techno]

Scots galach perhaps?

[@sectorgovernor]

I can't realize from what the Giedi Prime language in Part Two was based on. But I think it should have been based on Uralic and Slavic languages. Description of Lankiveil from the House trilogy is basically Siberia.(Though Bifrost Eyrie seemed more like Tibet for me) The name Harkonnen itself is Finnish. Meanwhile they also use Russian names like Vladimir. In my opinion the Harkonnens were probably Russian and Uralic peoples' descendants.

[@Yantryman]

Excuse me: first mentioning of the name is in Bulgarian texts from r 800's, thats almost 700 years before russia appeared as russia. In short this name is Slavic, not russian. Also very important and basic to know that Ural had no russians just 600-700 yeas ago, literally none, Udmurt, Komy actually some others which I dont remember now, but no no russians. please no misinformation, merci! Cheers!

[@Stamboul]

If someone's given name is Philip or some variation thereof, you wouldn't assume they're Greek. For Edward, you wouldn't assume they're English. For Mary, you wouldn't assume they're Jewish. For Darius, you wouldn't assume they're Persian. For Xavier, you wouldn't assume they're Basque. For Aisha, you wouldn't assume they're Arabic. For Conrad, you wouldn't assume they're German. For Oscar, you wouldn't assume they're Irish. For Dolores, you wouldn't assume they're Spanish. For Calvin, you wouldn't assume they're French. For Gemma, you wouldn't assume they're Italian. For Eric, you wouldn't assume they're Scandinavian. For Douglas, you wouldn't assume they're Scottish. And for Boris, you wouldn't assume they're Bulgarian - they might even be a former British prime minister. But in each of those cases, that would be the ethnic origin of that name. If their last name is Lopez, they might be a Spaniard... or they might be a Bolivian or Filipino of entirely indigenous descent. If it's Stein, they might have gotten it from a German ancestor... or an Ashkenazi Jewish one. If it's Anderson and they're American, it might be a Scottish surname (from the original Clan Anderson)... or an Anglicization* of a Swedish (Andersson) or Norwegian (Andersen) surname. Yes, I'm showing off. Sorry. Point being, if you don't have a good understanding of the history involved, you simply can't assume someone's ethnic background based on their name. Given names travel extremely quickly. Surnames travel more slowly, but when you're dealing with a future that's several times more distant from us than the beginning of recorded history, that's still fast enough to end up with unexpected results. Hebrews were naming their sons Dawid for centuries without suspecting that variations of it would one day become popular among gentiles. And I can guarantee you that the first person to bear the surname Washington could not have foreseen that, within a few centuries, it would mostly be borne by dark-skinned people on another continent. So there's no good reason to make assumptions about what Earth origin Frank Herbert meant the common people of Giedi Prime or Lankiveil to have. Also, it often happens that the dynasty ruling over a place has different origins from the people they rule over. There's been a lot of German blood coursing through the veins of every British monarch of the last 3 centuries - the ruling house had to change its name to Windsor during World War I to avoid embarrassment. Even if House Harkonnen is of Slavic-Uralic origin, they may well have acquired the fiefdom of both planets from the outside rather than starting out in either of them. It would tell you nothing about the inhabitants. But here's what Heretics of Dune has to say about the House: "Underlying all of this was what the Harkonnens had left behind-genetic lines tracing far away into the dawn times of Greek and Pathan and Mameluke, shadows of ancient history that few outside of professional historians or those trained by the Bene Gesserit could even name." Ultimately, FH picked Vladimir to evoke either Shamil's enemies or his own country's Cold War adversary. He picked Harkonnen literally out of a phone-book, because he liked it. (A lover of languages can also be a lover of words.) And he probably described Galach as "Inglo-Slavic" to suggest a distant future to which the geopolitics of 1965 are completely irrelevant; or perhaps a near future in which the colonization of space begins as, or eventually becomes, a US-Soviet affair. (Or maybe he just did it because he preferred "Inglo-" to "Anglo-" as a prefix and needed a reason to employ it.) Naming and nomenclature can certainly be used for world-building, but that doesn't mean they have to be. *Inglicization?

[@sectorgovernor]

@@Stamboul It's more my headcanon than Frank Herbert's. However I read somewhere their inspiration were the Soviets. It's also Russia ...

[@beenice1555]

There’s German influence it seems

[@sectorgovernor]

@@beenice1555 yes,the sounding is sometimes German-ish

[@mategido]

The saurdakar chant has its own fanbase and I'm a proud member

[@Ungabunga93]

Hmmmmmmmmbbbbbbbbbbbuuuuuuuugggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[@o.nature]

I listen to it on loop while I'm in the gym lol

[@alexroselle]

It’s a tangent but “Caladan” also makes me think of “Caledonia”, one of the older names for Scotland. While the Atreides seem like a mashup of Scottish and Spanish influences, it’s worth remembering that Spain was inhabited by Celtic peoples prior to the Roman and later conquests of the Iberian peninsula.

[@secretsofdune]

That’s ironic and quite a fun thought. I think the Atreides, although descended from the Greeks according to Herbert’s writings had quite a lot of influences including Chechnya and Dagestan.

[@LordOfNihil]

i seem to get from the books that the atrades are mostly of greek descent. i could buy that perhaps the planet caladan people are mostly scottish (bagpipes respecting that culture, though there is no indication of this in the books). i beliefe they atrades family was granted the fiefdom of caladan some time after the butlerian jihad, and given that some 10000 years had passed, plenty of time for the cultures to mingle and eventually merge. i like how the expanse addressed cultural melting pots and on a shorter time scale. where things like asian and mid-eastern peoples talk with a texas drawl and of course the mess that is belter creole. and such vast changes to language can happen on time scales of a few hundred years. boomers and zoomers barely speak the same language anymore so it doesn't seem even remotely unrealistic. in dune 10000-20000 (depending on source) years is a long time for languages do do all kines of merges and divergences and so nothing you hear would even sound remotely modern even if you could roughly correlate it to modern languages. and i cant imagine that the slow rush to colonize the galaxy would do much to keep languages fixated other than the official language of the empire (which doesnt seem to even be used on all their own planets, eg salusa secundus, let alone everywhere).

[@paavobergmann4920]

@@LordOfNihil Apparently, bagpipes werr popular in ancient rome, and probably also in ancient Greece, so that figured for me, I found it a nice touch

[@LordOfNihil]

@@paavobergmann4920 i saw an interview with hans zimmer, who said that bagpipes pretty much exist, in some form, anywhere you have goats. though i still thought having gurney on a baliset would have been a better more inline with the character. but bagpipes are good for pomp and circumstance.

[@secretsofdune]

I also didn't mention that Gurney literally reads from a German book "Vier Bücher vom wahren Christenthum" by Johann Arndt in Dune: Part One before he steps foot on Arrakis. German survived in Denis Villeneuve's movies also. Somehow, Arabic did not.

[@stevespain6445]

20k years in the future, it would have been best if no languages had survived. The lingual map of the earth 10k years ago would be alien to us.

[@sectorgovernor]

@@stevespain6445 not completely, because the proto versions of few language families existed. Though very few language family is 10k years old. Proto-Indo-European is about 5000 years old. Proto-Uralic is 6-7000 years old. Proto-Afro-Asiatic is possibly 10 000 years old

[@secretsofdune]

@@stevespain6445 The main point of this video is to get across that 20k years into the future, all past languages, even dead ones can survive and be brought back into the future via Bene Gesserit Other Memory. The Bene Gesserit have also seeded pretty much every culture and have their presence across the Imperium and they've had 10k years to do so. Thus this knowledge would find its way into those cultures eventually. The reality of true language survival doesn't apply Dune.

[@muslimresponse103]

western/hollywood hypocrisy and double standards at it again! also the bad pronunciations of some of the Arabic words like Mahdi and Usuul used in the movie made me cringe! and I am not even an Arab or Arab speaker.

[@Kannot2023]

​​@@muslimresponse103 Stilgar in the book was tall and blond, fremens were not described as arabic, so Hollywood didn't messed up. Save your indignation for something worthy

[@kigas24]

The sound of Chakobsa and visuals in Dune Pt2 seem much more based on Amazigh culture than Arabs. Which kind of makes sense, as Taureg (a branch of Amazigh) means "free men".

[@secretsofdune]

A few comments up or down, someone from Amazigh culture (I believe) didn't mention that for the Fremen language in the movie. I can see what you mean about the visual such as the face tattoos though.

[@kigas24]

@@secretsofdune I read their comment and I mostly agree with them. Check out traditional Amazigh dress and maybe you'll see what I meant. It's kind of similar to what Jessica and the other women are wearing at the end of Pt2. At least that's what it reminded me of.

[@PeloquinDavid]

There are many other peoples who call themselves by a name derived from their word for "free", including the Franks (and therefore the French) as well as the Turks, I believe. There are others...

[@mentallychallenging]

to throw my two cents in, while peterson did great work, the corporate urge to say nothing negative about islam is STRONG, even in the face of some of the horrific shit we've lived through in the past few decades and is very often reflected in sentiments like his the fun part about making a far flung future based on real world culture is that you CAN do things like that, because in your world, none of the people that would be offended still exist and you should write as if your audience would feel the same way

[@Rauruatreides]

To be honest, Herbert was more interested in the environment and political philosophies of Dune rather than creating a fully functional language, like what Tolkien aimed for. That's not to say he made Fremen carelessly, but the point is he didn't master linguistic skills. I myself could probably just study a good amount of Arabic, and then just take it and modify it slightly. Still, Peterson could've dedinately worded things better than saying stuff equivalent to "Herbert knew nothing", or that he was including Islamic vocabulary "semi-problematicly."

[@secretsofdune]

Yes Herbert incorporated his love of languages, but of course that was not the main focus of his story. Definitely an important part of his worldbuilding though. And yes I agree with you.

[@WilliamGreen]

Maybe a video about the Zen Sunni Wandering would be a good companion to this. It smashes two nearly opposite world views together because they had to learn to live together. Much like the Orange Catholic Bible does.

[@secretsofdune]

Yes definitely.

[@RealHogweed]

Regarding the pronunciation of arabic words, it’s inconceivable that it could go unchanged for thousands of years of years. Other memories belongs only to the bene gesserit, and the known universe is populated by hundred of billions of people. We saw drastic changes to pronunciation in short time within smaller groups of people.

[@secretsofdune]

The bene gesserit have access to the original knowledge and they teach and advise throughout the imperium, even the emperor has a bene gesserit by his side. This knowledge is readily available through them. Not only that, the Bene Gesserit seeded thousands of cultures with the missionaria protectiva, again using that knowledge of language. The Fremen have carried their traditions through their forced migration and still kept their Arabic terms as we see in the book. If that wasn’t enough to convince someone, the Bene Gesserit also seeded the Fremen culture, bringing back useful Arabic terms to suit their goals like Lisan Al-Gaib. So I’d have to disagree, I think it’s very conceivable and plausible. I’m not saying no changes were ever made, or some meanings didn’t change, but the majority remained in tact. Even Arabic changed slightly would have been okay, if they really didn’t want to use Arabic only. But it’s interesting that on Caladan, the Pundi rice farmers have a preserved Quran, which means their Arabic is unchanged and pure.

[@RealHogweed]

@@secretsofdune you are assuming the bene Gesserit are interested in keeping the language and religion "pure" like some religious fanatics. This is obviously unsubstantiated since they bent fremen religion as they fit. And look what happened with basically every religion today, there are invariably a number of sects. Herbert knew it, and I doubt he wrote the fremen as untouched by this mechanic.

[@secretsofdune]

@@RealHogweed I am not making that assumption, I am merely suggesting that it is possible for the language to survive. I don't even think the Fremen needed the Bene Gesserit because the Fremen carried their own knowledge and language through oral traditions without them. With the access to spice, the Fremen Sayyadinas would have had access to past knowledge even prior to Bene Gesserit manipulation.

[@RealHogweed]

@@secretsofdune let’s agree to disagree i guess, but religion and languages staying unchanged is not something that happens in reality. Just look around you 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@secretsofdune]

Fair enough, I just think in a reality where there are psychedelic space witches who can talk to their ancestors, reality as we know it doesn’t apply 🤷‍♂️ but hey. I know that things didn’t remain exactly the same in Frank Herbert’s reality either for example “ZenSunni” but things were able to be brought back from the past was I guess, my main point.

[@demos113]

Good point on Bene Gesserit Other Memory, the languages were there all along.

[@secretsofdune]

Exactly!

[@TheWhiteDragon3]

My personal favorite detail about the sign language that I picked up as early as my first watch was the sign for "enemy": the hand held palm facing the listener with the middle and ring fingers curled and the index and pinky fingers straightened then making an exaggerating curling gesture, you know, _like the horns of a demon._ It's an implicit piece of storytelling showing us how the peoples of this setting view other peoples as they engage in this unending cycle of violence.

[@M.athematech]

The mistake was using Chinese instead of a fictional language evolved from Chinese. Using modern Arabic would be ridiculous. And which Arabic would you want them to use? There are 100s of dialects with different pronunciations.

[@secretsofdune]

They also used German in the book Gurney reads. So more than one mistake I guess. As I mentioned in another comment, a mixture of words and dialects would have been interesting particularly Egyptian Arabic. Because the Fremen are descended from the “people of Misr” aka Egypt. A mix of Farsi, Turkish, Urdu and Arabic would have been interesting and a language system could have been created to accommodate that. I don’t get paid to get the job right, they do, but they missed the mark imo.

[@johnzercher9884]

It seems like Peterson used Chakobsa to show off talent. He may have seen it as an opportunity to create something completely new like he did in GoT. If that's the case then, its a shame.

[@secretsofdune]

Never thought of it that way. I really hope that's not the case, although it could be. Dune + Denis Villeneuve = huge opportunity to display skills.

[@erwinheinrichstromer1156]

As someone with an interest in linguistics, I can tell you he probably just nerded too hard about it. When someone loves the process of evolution in Languages, and languages's behaviour in general, one would be inclined to actually show those changes. He is right in saying that there wouldn't be any recognizable feature or word from any language 20k years in the future, just like there isn't any from 20k years in the past (though admittedly, the continuation of civilization would make preserving language much easier. But even then, all languages change with time). So he could've just used Arabic instead of trying to make something realistic, of course

[@GIVN2SIN24]

I think it's *more* respectful to not only stay true to FH, but to include the Arabic (and other language) references. And you can't just remove the jihad(s)! They are critical to the entire storyline, the entire Dune universe. I agree with you. I think the erasure is disrespectful.

[@heavypen]

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion regarding Frank Herbert’s use of various languages in the Dune novels. While it’s unlikely Herbert knew every nuance of each language he incorporated, he didn’t need to. Herbert was an exceptional world-builder, standing alongside giants like J.R.R. Tolkien, Robert Heinlein, Poul Anderson, and Jack Vance. His ability to weave diverse cultural elements into a cohesive and immersive universe is a testament to his skill. The use of language in a work of fiction can be challenging for any author (unless you're Tolkien). However, crafting an engaging "otherworld" story for your intended target audience-that’s the real skill.

[@secretsofdune]

Hello there. I'm not sure what you disagree on exactly because I agree with everything you've said in this comment. Of course I do not think Frank Herbert was bilingual or knew all the nuances of each language he mentions in Dune. I just see him as a language enthusiast who enjoyed languages and the meanings and origins of words. In an interview he even said he loves the sound of words and that some words carry certain sounds that make them more or less ominous, and he offered the word Desposyni with a "moustache twiddling" type voice. It was quite interesting and funny. Thanks for dropping a comment.

[@heavypen]

​@@secretsofdune Hi. Completely grok your response and insights into Herbert’s love for languages. The video did critique Herbert’s use of language (language elements) by echoing David Peterson's observations. My comment addressed these specific critiques. As well-read as he was, clearly Herbert did not know every linguistic nuance. However, he knew enough to weave diverse elements into a cohesive narrative, which is a testament to his world-building skills. This broader perspective is what I find most compelling about his work.

[@secretsofdune]

@heavypen oh I see what you mean now. By no means did I mean to criticize him, it’s just I wished to present a natural problem that anyone can face. I might have a hard time pronouncing some languages myself for example. I was never good at French at school. Later on in life I found more enthusiasm for the language but it took years before I developed a descent pronunciation skills in it I think. Just a personal observation. I completely agree on your point about his broader themes though. Appreciate your thoughts on the video.

[@jonathanjameswebb]

hamburger!!!!!

[@thegoodwin]

hamburger hamburger cheeseburger big mac whopper

[@basedjager3144]

As a North African i barely see any show or movie based on my culture. And when it is, the characters are portrayed by black actors. And i think this situation is pretty much the same for subsaharian Africans, writers/producers would rather race swap historical white figures into being black for their show rather than making a proper show based in Africa and educate people about REAL African history, like emperor Mansa Moussa. This whole race swapping trend could definitely give western people the impression that Africans do not possess any historical legacy and that this would be the reason why those producers/writers would need to modify their own history to fit Africans in it for inclusion. In my opinion, the reason they do it is based on hypocrisy and literal contempt towards African history. Last scandal was about the new Assassin’s creed game set in Japan with a black main character, why didn’t they have the game be set in Africa ? Why do we almost never see Africans in histories set in Africa ? Dune was the occasion to finally tell a story HEAVILY inspired by North African culture in a blockbuster with no race swap, or culture theft. Strangely, 95% of the elements inspired by my culture seemed to have been erased in the movie. When they finally get a shot at real culture inclusion they disrespect it.

[@secretsofdune]

I think that missed opportunity is what I lament the most about these projects. There was a real chance for education which could have ushered in a new era of understanding and dare I say it, peace. I know little of the new Assassins Creed game although i am aware that there was a black Samurai who gained notoriety and I think that is a cool story to be told. Should it have been the main focus of a Japanese story which we've been waiting for for years? Probably not. Perhaps after the success (if im not mistaken) of the Ghosts of Tsushima game, they thought it would be too similar and wanted to add a unique element? Who knows (I don't know enough about either project tbh). All your other points definitely have validity in your concerns. The amount of stories and historical figures to come out of Africa/the Middle East is mindblowing, but nobody with the power to tell stories wants to tell those stories.

[@e.s.r5809]

My understanding is that British and French invaders destroyed historical records of African civilisations on purpose. It meant resistance movements couldn't rally around a shared cultural identity. So it's no accident that westerners think most African nations don't have history. It's really frustrating, as someone who's interested in historical Benin. I can't write about it in an academic way, because I can't cite enough primary sources. But there aren't enough primary sources *precisely because* the British army deliberately razed the city and destroyed them.

[@cristinadicoiu6669]

I understand your disappointment that Arabic wasn't used more in the movie, but Arabic is a tough language to pronounce correctly for non-native speakers. It would have sounded terribly from the mouths of American/English actors. I would much rather hear a fake language than a poorly pronounced real language. I would have loved to hear the Arabic phrases from the book, but maybe Denis has a point when he does not want to hear a beloved French word spoken from the mouth of an American. What works in writing may not work on the screen.

[@secretsofdune]

I think you're far too kind haha. They pronounced the fake language, very similar to Arabic, well enough. If they cared to get it right I'm sure they would have. They went to neo-chakobsa school after all. Josh Brolin didn't go to French school sadly haha.

[@CorruptedDogg]

As a Québecois like Denis, I have to add that "tabarnak" (from the word "tabernacle" in Catholic religion) is deeply anchored in québécois culture and its rocky history with the Catholic church. It's not a French word. It's one of many "québécismes", words that are only used in québécois French. It's something you inherit culturally when you grow up and live in Québec. It's one of, if not the strongest swearword in our culture. I don't know what Denis what thinking asking an American (with all due respect to Brolin for trying his best, of course) to say that word. It will only ever sound right coming out of the mouth of a Québécois. Tabarnak!

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks for the info! He should have hired a Quebecois as a spice pirate to say it. I’m sure that would have brought many a smile.

[@baklavabitch9345]

true, its possible that arabic or any ‘arabic adjacent fremen’ language would sound weird from american mouths, but also, big budget movies can easily, and usually do hire accent coaches to overcome this. If for whatever reason, Zendaya had to portray a french character (i know it wouldnt make sense in dune but bare with me) they would have hired an accent coach. And the french language has plenty of sounds that are foreign to English speakers. so the work for teaching actors (whose job it is to accurately portray these characters) would have been difficult regardless of the language. Its true that Arabic has some tricky sounds such as ح ع غ ط ظ ص ض ق, that may be hard to learn for any non Arabic speaker. But actors, even ones in dune have learned other ‘sounds’ or accents for other projects. I felt that the same effort could/should have been applied for a big project like Dune. I feel that (tho im not implying that this is what you were insinuating) actors are usually expected to learn to pronounce non-english, european languages. (Like the number of times an actor has learned to do a French, or russian, or italian accent despite not being a speaker of such). But when it comes to non European languages in film being mispronounced by actors, its usually chalked up to being “oh well thats a hard language for them to learn”. Like its a sort of double standard for languages. I get part of it is for fear of actors lspeaking a non-euro language/accent, it could come off as disrespectful (which it easily could), but i also feel it could be just as disrespectful to not even bother, and just speak these languahes in a mispronounced/american accent.

[@christopherbartley6400]

The ancient Greeks had the gaida, a type of bagpipe, and house Atreides descends from house Atreus. You can even see Greek letters on the old Duke's tomb in the scene on the cliff/cemetery.

[@omarbaba9892]

Tbh I’m disappointed you didn’t talk about the Harkonnen language

[@secretsofdune]

There’s little info on it, that’s why but apparently it was created the same way as the Sardaukar language, Heavily modified English. So instead of covering both I chose to focus on the Sardaukar. The video was quite long already.

[@omarbaba9892]

@@secretsofdune that’s fair

[@angusorvid8840]

I liked the depiction of the Harkonnen language, especially in the battle scenes and the arena scene with the obnoxiously loud announcer, then the gruesome, witchy chant and all the violent gesticulating. Very well done.

[@the87jazels]

Galas language is Anglo slavic... this is because the book was written in bipolar world of USA and USSR

[@edim108]

Anglo-Slavic is a very interesting combination. Some Slavic languages deffinitely feel more "English", especially Bulgarian with its articles, mostly no cases, etc.

[@dignes3446]

As a Circassian I recognize stuff from Dune (everyone carrying daggers is very Caucasian tradition). It is an interesting mix of a lot of different cultures. The book had more of this than the movie though...

[@secretsofdune]

There's a lot of Caucasian influence on the Atreides in the book which didn't find its way into the films.

[@marcomarterer7232]

Did the sadocar priest on the thumbnail just shout for a "Hamburger"?😄

[@secretsofdune]

He's the best street foot vendor

[@lanegeorgeton8266]

It is a struggle I’ve come across. Does language influence thought or does thought influence language. It’s to me obviously the latter. He has a way of presenting that is cool. But also seems to miss something in a lot of his work. So close, but not quite there

[@russellsantana]

Mandarin should not have been used; rather, a descendent "conlang" should have been invented, just as was done with Chakobsa.

[@secretsofdune]

That would have made much more sense given everything said by the language creator of the film. It feels inconsistent.

[@alkrimiy]

I tend to thing about Mandarin in film as some kind of hermeneutic language, transmitted possibly only through the Suk school. While Chakobsa is a lively dynamic language of millions of Fremen, which is more open to changes.

[@erwinheinrichstromer1156]

@@alkrimiy yeah, I do doubt the unorganized Fremen would've been able to keep their original language intact over millennia. Hell, after the fall of Rome romance speakers coudln't manage to do it for 500 years, let alone thousands, even with religion carrying it over

[@jemts5586]

My thoughts exactly. If they changed other real-world languages, they should've changed the chinese to something that sounded close, but wasn't it. It took away my immersion bc it's like "A billion years later, and this language survived, completely unchanged?"

[@paavobergmann4920]

After awakening from the dreamlike haze the visuals had lulled me into twice, I realized that the Villeneuve movies were grandiose eye candy. Period.

[@danielplainview2584]

Brilliant video for a lover of language. Thank you.

[@secretsofdune]

That’s very kind of you thank you. Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Mr.SharkTooth-zc8rm]

SoD, this was outstanding! Thumbnail was nice... 👌SUBSCRIBED!

[@secretsofdune]

Very much appreciated. Thank you. Glad you enjoyed this piece.

[@Mr.SharkTooth-zc8rm]

@@secretsofdune 👍

[@maxsilva11]

It's ironic that some people are complaining about the possibility that the Arabic would be pronounced "wrong," but others are complaining that there's no way that Arabic would survive in a recognizable form so far into the future. Like, loosely pronounced and varied Arabic is the obvious compromise - respecting the fact that Islam and Arab culture is an important source of the ideas of the novels, while recognizing that vernaculars change over time and space. Anyway, I heartily agree with your perspective that this feels like erasure, which is much more problematic than imperfect representation.

[@secretsofdune]

Yeah I mean to be fair, the Arabic in the mini series wasn’t exactly pronounced perfectly (but that’s fine, at least it was in there) and it was amazing to have it in there. Props to the creators of the shot and the actors for their efforts. Is have much rather it been in the film pronounced as best as they could manage rather than it not be present at all

[@radiosilence599]

I thought the Saudukar language was actually based on Tibetan throat singing. It sounds a lot like it.

[@galford4793]

I love all language in Dune. This body language like signing for the deaf is awesome. Frank Herbert was genius. Feint within a feint!

[@jeremybaumeister215]

Thank you for the perspective on this subject.. I'd no idea this was so interesting

[@hlaweardlaighonaghidau6543]

I doubt Peterson knew or could do anything about the inclusion of the chinese

[@secretsofdune]

Yes, it seems so.

[@penkac]

Well said. Thank you!

[@secretsofdune]

Appreciate it, glad you think so. Thanks for the kind Super Thanks

[@mymaudlincareer]

"I wouldn't recommend using these words to the author" good thing frank herbert was wrote his shit down before some modern language expert could water it down for fear of offence.

[@secretsofdune]

I was surprised by those statements. I feel there’s a misunderstanding by them of the material and the intent of the author.

[@Mr_Quimper]

I'm sorry. But Peterson, although very talented, comes across as rather precious. Which only makes him look more insecure. In comparison, look at interviews with Zimmer. He's like... "Isn't it fun just to be like you are twelve again?" (not direct quote). When you are sure of your craft, you learn when working with others, to let things go. That also means not bitching about it after the fact.

[@secretsofdune]

Yeah Hans really seemed to be enjoying himself and in his element.

[@roiscavel3923]

I think it's that Peterson comes from an academic/scientific background, while Zimmer is an artist with several decades of experience under his belt. Music and linguistics are complicated in their own right, but a seasoned composer like Zimmer might feel more free and less bound by rules than Peterson, who has to worry about grammar, syntaxis, conjugation, and all those things I can't even wrap my head around, all so that the studio can ignore most of it willy nilly.

[@secretsofdune]

@@roiscavel3923 It would have probably been much easier to choose a language system and use various words from Urdu, Farsi, Turkish, Arabic dialects etc to make a functional Fremen Language, and perhaps more complicated would be to create a writing system based on those languages instead of creating an entirely fake language.

[@chrislilley7547]

@@roiscavel3923 Yes, the sardukar language is less linguistics and more sound design. Ideally the two would have been working together.

[@Supramonk]

at 10:34 minutes you are scrolling the neo Chakobsa, what site is on the background that your scrolling can you tell me

[@secretsofdune]

It’s a pdf and the background behind the pdf is just an old background image from the first dune movie website a long time ago I believe.

[@Hessy-ob5ws]

I enjoyed the video and its perspective. Wasn't FH partly inspired by the Algerian War of Independence in his depiction of the Fremen which was near contemporaneous with the time in which he wrote Dune? (Which would make the Harkonnens the French - which probably wouldn't sit well with the French-Canadian director!). I agree with your contention that the films make an attempt to erase - or at the very least underplay - the Arab/lslamic elements. This may be done under the misguided notion of not offending modern sensibilities (dropping "jihad" and using "holy war" instead - that's better how exactly?) but actually comes over as condescending and sometimes having the opposite effect to what was intended. A particular little bugbear of mine was the mispronunciation of Chani (am I alone in thinking that Zendaya was possibly miscast? I preferred her fremen female friend who appeared briefly and came over as fierce and courageous - and I believe was about the only speaking cast member of actual Arabic heritage?). I digress! Interesting video - thank-you!

[@secretsofdune]

I'm glad you enjoyed this. I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Herbert was inspired by the Algerian War of Independence, the term "Ya Hya Chouhada" definitely is evidence of that. I did like Chani's Fremen friend "Shishakli" even though the character was gender swapped which was kind of silly (no point calling her shishakli, well there is but i'll get to that one day ;)) What I didn't like was how she was used and the purpose she served which I think was only meant to be a "see, we cast an Arab in Dune" kind of thing. Even if you were fully away of that fact as an actor, of course you're not going to say no to Denis. Oops, I might have said too much already...

[@DavidWilson-js9lu]

Thought it a strange take to say that Paul’s battle cry in the trailer should have been in the common language. I remember seeing that trailer and being stoked, because they WERE using the Fremen language and subtitling it, since it was so important culturally for Paul to be using their language. Wouldn’t have made any sense culturally or story wise for him to use anything else.

[@secretsofdune]

I meant I would have preferred it to be in Galach (English) rather than Peterson’s Neo-Chakobsa creation. I would have obviously preferred it to be the chakobsa from the book “Ya Hya Chouhada.”

[@DavidWilson-js9lu]

@@secretsofdune Oh gotcha. Right choice, wrong execution

[@secretsofdune]

@@DavidWilson-js9lu Right exactly. For me personally I wanted to feel hyped for that scene in the trailer but felt off about it because of the change. Some others felt the same way. I guess it comes down to how attached you are to the book. Many have waited for that line to be delivered since the 80's, maybe even further back before there even was a film being made.

[@roiscavel3923]

I'll have to admit, I came in absolutely ignorant regarding the subject and developed a somewhat defensive attitude towards the middle of the video. But that last portion of the video made it all clic for me: why would Chinese, French, or even English (Galach), survive practically intact thousands of years into the future, while Arabic just became a conlang? Especially with the political importance ot has on the text and in these world we're living right now. As much as I adore Peterson's work and skill, I think the studio missed the mark by not making Arab the actual Fremen language. Peterson work with the battle language was beautiful. The studio should've kept his Sardaukar language intact, maybe even create a unique battle language for the Imperial House, but sadly they took the most corporate option possible. Thanks for educating me and sharing with us, it was something I probably would've bever thought myself, but now it's impossible to ignore everytime I see DV's Dune.

[@secretsofdune]

Thank you for your refreshingly honest comment on your experience with this video. I expected that some might feel defensive towards the film and everything involved with it and that's completely understandable. I equally love his battle language work too and I hope I showed a balanced opinion of him and his work in general, much of which I really do like. The creation of his Chakobsa is an insanely skilled feat and I don't want to take that away from him, I just don't think it was the right way to go for Dune, that's all.

[@milobem4458]

English did not survive unchanged into the future. We're supposed to imagine they all speak their native language and it's as natural to them as English is to us. It's a method called "translation convention" where the most commonly spoken language of the movie is translated into the language of the audience, because no one except total language geeks would watch a movie that is 100% conlang. In their universe, Galach is no more close to English than the native language of Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings.

[@secretsofdune]

@@milobem4458 Yes indeed, true Galach would probably be incomprehensible to us, probably like Welsh is to me (sorry my Welsh friends haha).

[@YuRrRrRYeEeEeE]

Dune two may be my facorite movie ever made. Timothy charlemets (if u know how to spell it by memory you're weird not me) speech at the fremen war council was absolutely enthralling i got maybe the most intense goosebumps ever my first times watching it absolutely the pinnacle of cinema. "The hand of God be my witness, i am the voice of the outer world. I will bring you to paradise."

[@craigsavarese8631]

Pee Wee Herman: “Mr. Lizard… would you care for a HAMBURGER?!?!”

[@backslash153]

Okay, but the elaborate non-practical writing for Chakobsa actually fits well. In Children of Dune, there is a quote from "The Story of Liet-Kynes", telling of how the Fremen's most ancient roots were highly developed, with "[the language's] written form carried the shape of what it described."

[@secretsofdune]

I have no issue with that. I even created my own chakoba with the shapes of sand dunes, sandworms and pyramids as an evolved look from Arabic while still keeping it Arabic. I’ll try to show it in the future.

[@RunningRonnie]

I don't speak Arabic, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I've read, that this language has a variety of different dialects and accents. It is kind of a shame Petersen did not take the chance to experiment with those, they could have just mixed up pronunciation patterns or synonyms and created a language that included lesser known vocabulary as an Easter Egg. (I'm sure nobody at the executive level would have noticed). No disrespect to Denis and his upbringing, but strictly, Gurney speaking French would be a huge break in canon: There is a brief scene in Children of Dune where Leto II and Ghanima talk to each other in French, with the explanation that they are two of the few people alive still remembering this language through their genetic memories. I kinda thought, one would keep such a fun fact about their native language in a fictional universe in mind. 😂

[@secretsofdune]

I agree about the dialects. It could have been a mixture of different Arabic dialects while still maintaining the rules of the Arabic language, like picking and choosing the coolest sounding from each dialect whether it be Moroccan darija, or colloquial Egyptian Arabic for example. As for Gurney and French, you’re absolutely right.

[@kemsat-n6h]

I honestly don’t want any real languages in my sci-fi or fantasy. Except for the language the movie or show is made in. Obviously they speak English in Dune, but I always assume they’re speaking some other language, and the viewer is watching it in their own language, like one of those translators from sci-fi & fantasy. Anyway, Dune is supposed to be on a planet far away, and I’m cool with the languages spoken in the movie not being real languages, and I’d prefer it that way. Edit: I mean this with respect to movies & shows, not books. Though when we go from book to film, I reiterate my point.

[@secretsofdune]

That’s fair enough and I understand what you meant about languages automatically translated, but then that isn’t Dune because Dune is not your average sci fi, that also means that there’s no need for the neo-chacokbsa in dune either seeing as though the fremen language would automatically be translated into English. Dune is about real world languages and even religions brought into the future, that’s one of the unique things about it. It’s not Star Wars with weird aliens and robots talking strange languages.

[@ToeKnife166]

The Harkonnen language was my favourite, followed by Sardaukar. I speak Arabic and I completely understand why they stayed way from using it, the film doesn’t want to be seen as glorifying modern day extremism.

[@omarbaba9892]

Also does it make any sense for a language to be recognisable after 20,000 years?

[@secretsofdune]

Not sure what their intentions were behind excluding it, but I thought their actual aim was to show how extremism is wrong. The film seemed to do that. With Arabic it would have surely carried the same message.

[@secretsofdune]

It does in Frank Herbert's universe because of the Bene Gesserit Other Memory as I tried to explain., but it can't apply just to some languages and not to others. Chinese exists in tact 20,000 in the future according to the movie, so does German too, the same should apply to all languages or none of them.

[@pronouncedzara]

The last time I commented on one of your videos I mentioned that I was working on a video essay on Dune addressing all of the erasure in Denis Villeneuve's adaptation as well as a deep dive of postcolonialist themes in sci-fi/how it ties into the accusation that Dune is a white savior narrative etc. Update: I just finished filming it and then watched this and WOW. I really wish I had done so prior. I can't tell you how much I respect you calling out Peterson's nonsense and the obfuscation in Dune (+ the clip of Denis on Kimmel, I lost it when I first saw that!) You sure have a lot more tact than I do and it's commendable. Seriously incredible job and thank you!

[@secretsofdune]

That Kimmel clip is hilarious and I always laugh at it 😂 I do remember your work on the video essay. Congrats on completing it and thank you for the kind words. It took a while but I'm glad I finally released it, I had been meaning to do this since Dune Part One essentially, but I thought to be fair, I'd wait. A similar case for my ultimate review of the Dune adaptation which is also in the works. I look forward to your video essay! Let me know when it drops!

[@pronouncedzara]

@@secretsofdune Thank you very much! It’s a good thing you waited as so much new info came out after the film was released, everything in divine timing. I’m looking forward to watching the full review as well. Keep up the great work.

[@LuDux]

Maybe Arabic didn't survive because it was language of outsiders and wonderers. Meanwhile imperium institutions were very rigid and may have kept languages unchanging. Like Latin survived in Vatican but evolved into Romance languages outside it. Maybe Mandarin is official language of Suk School Edit: somebody already suggested same theory about Mandarin

[@secretsofdune]

Well whatever the case may be, it doesn't seem to match what Frank Herbert wrote, based on his in-universe logic.

[@Joe-ef2nr]

Does anyone know about the wristwatch worn by the bagpipe player at 0:40?

[@urdnal]

At first I thought it's some Tissot T Touch but looking at their pics, I don't think so now.

[@urdnal]

Found it, Casio AQ-164WD.

[@ammanbansal2265]

Fantastic video, Rali. I'd actually love to see Hindi [or something based around Hindi] featured in the future of Dune.

[@secretsofdune]

Urdu even! I would love that. I wish we would have saw more Prana-Bindu and all of that. I wish there was more of the real world cultures in the Dune movies. Thank you, glad you enjoyed it.

[@aa7988]

Quite valid point you have made here. Producers and director were not as brave as Frank Herbert was. That is quite a shame.

[@secretsofdune]

It's quite sad really. I wish art was braver. It's the type of material to push bold ideas into the human conscious and create more compelling conversations. Well, I guess we will still always have the books.

[@aa7988]

Well art indeed is brave but productions of this sort like blockbusters, are really business where money does thr talking not the art.

[@secretsofdune]

I wish *their art* creation was braver.

[@goazong13]

Is the harkonen language the same as sardaukar language?

[@secretsofdune]

No it's different.

[@secretsofdune]

But I should also add that it was created in the same way; heavily modified English.

[@Tranxhead]

It was pleasing that you criticised Peterson's notion about Herbert's ignorance. He can be randomly and baselessly negative about things. His work is also very good but he appears to have regurgitated a lot of his ideas for Dothraki in creating Chakobsa. They are very phonetically similar.

[@secretsofdune]

I think Herbert was nowhere near as ignorant as Peterson implied. I've poured over books and articles for years about Dune and Herbert's commentaries enough to know how much thought and detail went into his work. Aside from his sign language work in the film, Peterson could have had a much easier time working on the film had he done a little research. Herbert wanted Chakobsa to be as near to colloquial Arabic as possible. He has said that in multiple interviews and articles. I also very much doubt that Villeneuve or even Warner Bros stipulated a rule or intervened that the language shouldn't be Arabic. So I really do think it's down to Peterson. Villeneuve is the kind of person to allow experts the space to do what they do best and fit their work into his own work. So the decision to make Chakobsa completely made up must have been a choice Peterson himself made. This clearly goes against the author's wishes. Herbert's Chakobsa: Majority = colloquial Arabic. Peterson's Neo-Chakobsa: Majority = made up language + three Arabic words/phrases... It's a shame that very few (if any) called this out.

[@bobdadnaila7708]

I KNEW they were chanting "hamburger"...

[@YuRrRrRYeEeEeE]

Jessica & mohani can speak non verbally because Jessica has become the reverend mother & when a woman ascends to this position she obtains the memories of every single reverend mother before her in their entirety literal millennia of consciousness. So she knew mohanis actions thoughts & feelings before even she herself did.

[@Qubeman]

I don’t think Chakobsa should’ve just been Arabic. I like that new languages are made for Dune, as it increases immersion to me. I do agree that it should be pronounced more like Arabic

[@secretsofdune]

I'm going to have to take this immersion point more seriously I think. It's probably the only valid argument that can be made for the new languages, so I will be exploring that more and keep my mind more open to the idea.

[@privateinformation2960]

"The Butlerian FA Cup between House Manchester United and House Tottenham on planet Crystal Palacia" doesnt really convey the military aspect of fanatacism tho really does it.

[@iamsheep]

Very fascinating video as always! I don't really know about the history of languages, especially not Arabic so I can't comment on what would survive in universe etc. The only language I can comment on is Chinese. In terms of realism, if there was one language to stay most in tact 20,000 something years into the future would be Chinese (with a caveat). It is a language that has stayed the same since about 3000 years and the whole culture is based around the the language itself. HOWEVER, this only applies to the written TEXT. The pronunciation of modern Mandarin (or court language, the dialect spoken by the royal court) has only existed for about 300 years and it is, in fact heavily influenced by foreign invasions of the Mongols and Manchus. The lingua franca of China has evolved over centuries and I can't imagine how it would change 20,000 years in the future. However, I believe the text would still survive to some degree due to the large population of Chinese speakers in the world and how central it is to that culture. In fact, if the written language was lost somehow, Chinese identity (outside of a few customs or rituals) would not exist, as the written language is not an phonetic alphabet and has meaning in the characters themselves. The Chinese script (hanzi, or kanji in Japanese and hanja in Korean) were the first writing systems of Japan and Korea, so many of their written records were also in Chinese. To illustrate the importance of that language, Korea has had to increase its education of Chinese hanja because most of the populace can't read it and they are losing understanding of their past. Of course, including Mandarin in Dune was a commercial calculation for the Chinese market and there's no connection to the books. If it makes you feel better, as a native Chinese speaker, I have had to put up with dozens of cringe inclusion of Mandarin in Hollywood films and shows where the pronunciation is so off, it is completely unintelligible to a Chinese speaker. One example of this was Amy Adams speaking Mandarin during the film's climax. I dearly love that film, but that scene really took my out of the story for a moment. For those interested in how a real spoken language has changed over the centuries I'll link below a video of how Mandarin (Chinese lingua franca) has evolved. Historians and language experts know how they sounded because there are rhyming books. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gYasdqh9arSrbKMsi=hxkIbCUEYm6q1x09

[@secretsofdune]

Thank you! Some Fascinating insights. That's interesting because the written form of Arabic survived in Dune too on Caladan no less, among the Pundi Rice farmers who had a "preserved Qur'an," meaning preserved in the Arabic language. Oh and p.s. it doesn't make me feel any better haha, why cant people do their homework and research before they create things. Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

[@iamsheep]

@@secretsofdune Oooh right that's interesting. I think it's an interesting topic of what part of culture and language would survive into the future. I believe since we have been able to record audio for over a hundred years, changes in our language might actually slow down compared to centuries past. Re: video link. unfortunately it doesn't seem to have English subtitles, but it starts with the first recorded Chinese dynasty (ie first to have writing) from 1600 BC and each map change is reflecting dynastic changes through out Chinese history. Even the last one isn't completely modern Mandarin, but 95% there. BTW if you're into GoT, LotR style fantasy, there's actually a Chinese historical/fantasy epic based on actual events called Creation of the Gods and it is part 1 of a trilogy that the second part will be release next year. Check out the trailer if you're interested. I believe you have to rent it if you're in the US though. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqbGhZ9jmN18oMUsi=ZHsuaZP3s2dgnTm4

[@secretsofdune]

@@iamsheep YES! I've been meaning to watch Creation of the Gods! Will be checking it out soon.

[@iamsheep]

@@secretsofdune nice!

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

You are wrong to say that Chakobsa is meant to be Arabic under a different name, the reason why? In Heretics of Dune the Frank Herbert explicitly differentiates the ancient language of the Islamiyat and Chakobsa, not to mention referencing the fact that Galach has changed since the days of the original Dune, and the fact that speaking the Islamiyat language was something the Bene Gesserit did to invoke Sunnism and not the cult of Shai-Hulud, and Zensunnism which is a different religion derived from Sunnism in the same way Norse and Greek myth are derived from the same Indo-European source. Peterson's syllabary for Chakobsa exemplifies the Fremen utilitarianism in the sense that more information is being packed into a smaller area. In a sense any writing system can be argued to be utilitarian (though perhaps not how it is used, I'm looking at you Thai and French), as Chinese for instance does not tell you how to pronounce the words, but does tell you their meaning, but the Latin Alphabet tells you exactly how to pronounce something (if used strictly) but does not differentiate homophones. I think if you asked Frank Herbert if Chakobsa was Arabic, he'd say no, and then if you asked him why he used Arabic he'd say one of two things, either A) "I'm not a linguist" and/or B) "I wanted to use words that properly conveyed the concepts I meant in an allegorical way"

[@secretsofdune]

Well in tapes I've personally heard of Frank Herbert's interviews, he said "“The language is strongly rooted in Arabic." In the book Makers of Dune, he said "I used linguistic rules, psycho-linguistic rules, and an elision process to change it, because there's time passing, but I wanted to hold it close enough to the present, colloquial Arabic - which is the language that survives.” Frank Herbert's son said, “The Fremen language is based upon colloquial Arabic, in a form my father believed would be likely to survive for centuries in a desert environment.” As for Islamiyat, it is a secret language. We do not know what language it is necessarily, but it probably isn't Arabic. Islamiyat itself simply means Islamic religious studies and the word comes from Urdu. So perhaps it is Urdu or an evolved form of Urdu and perhaps Urdu itself is a language forgotten which would explain why the Islamiyat language is a secret one among the Tleilaxu.

[@sectorgovernor]

Short video of 3 Uralic languages what aren't closely related. Just for how these languages sound kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnrcd4Oria-latEsi=UcevjsCDJ7be6GuS

[@DiscipleOfHeavyMeta1]

9:50 Odds are it evolves from Arabic, with substrates from other language families - either Caucasian, Turkic, Persian, Indo-Aryan or Mongol.

[@neatwheat]

I think I'm very much in favour of how the Fremen language turned out in the movie. 20 millennia into the future is a long time for languages to change, single arabic words like "jihad" could be as well just the closest words known to us today and the rest of the language make it sound foreign and mysterious even for a big movie audience demographic speaking Arabic themselves to have an equally great movie experience.

[@secretsofdune]

The point I was trying to make was in the story, all those languages can easily return or can be preserved according to Frank Herbert's writings and the world he built. But I can understand how the language for the movie is a choice that perhaps fits the cinematic experience better.

[@JohnJohnjogos]

I was never the type of being a hugh fan of smth, but now i see the narrow way through and my road leads into the desert!

[@secretsofdune]

👋🏼

[@DDR131]

I think they have done great job with the language. It sounds amazing. Thank God they didn't do the book one.

[@bhoops13]

Really well put together

[@secretsofdune]

Appreciate it thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@muhammadbegaliev9198]

Personally, I think : Addam Reshi a Zanta - is one of the strongest moments in the movie. It shouldn't be correct to be good.

[@secretsofdune]

You’re right, it is a strong moment in the movie, which is why replacing the official phrase from the book inspired by Arabic and Algerian independence with a made up on is even more disappointing.

[@muhammadbegaliev9198]

@@secretsofdune We all have a moments from the book that didn’t come to fruition in the movie or came not in the way we wanted, but it’s a sci-fi saga after all, DV didn’t want it to be about Algerian protesters or have connection to it. For him it had to sound good, and it does for my non-Arabic ear. Sardaukar priest chant is completely gibberish, mosaic of sounds that H. Zimmer made, despite that it’s a masterpiece scene. Love what you do! I wore your merch t shirt to premier!

[@secretsofdune]

@muhammadbegaliev9198 no way haha that’s awesome!

[@agent7466]

Missed out on a Duniverse pun

[@secretsofdune]

There's always room for a Duniverse pun. I should remember that!

[@splintershield]

I loved this video, thank you. Have been studying conlanging and linguistics since... 2005-ish and this feeds that quirky part of my brain that loves this.

[@secretsofdune]

Really happy to hear that. Of course I completely respect the skill of creating a conlang and hope I didn’t come across as negative towards the craft itself. I just didn’t agree with some decisions made in the film. It’s really nice to receive a positive comment from a student of conlang/linguistics so thank you!

[@chrisgriffith1573]

The problem with Arabic was not present in the sixties when Herbert formed his vision of the books, it wasn't even manifest in the seventies as his popularity grew, but now after 9/11, and all the middle eastern conflicts, we have an image of Islam, Arabic and the culture in general that is counter to big entertainment goals within the context of propaganda.

[@secretsofdune]

Yes perhaps so, and that perception has been largely formed by the portrayal of Arabs in Hollywood too, which is mostly caricatures and foul stereotypes. This project had an opportunity to perhaps alter that perception and direct it on a more positive course if not change the public perception completely with the films themselves. I don't think that was achieved sadly.

[@joaovictorkelima2551]

The reason that perhaps Arabic was not used as the Chakobsa language for the Fremens is due to the events that will take place in Msssias, Filhos and obviously God Emperor, as the Fremens will go from being oppressed to being oppressors in the future of jihad of Muad'Dib and the Ascension of the Kralizec by Leto II, in this the repercussion that would generate for the film would be even more problematic considering all the stigma that the Muslim community suffers when they are pejoratively taxed/stigmatized, but... I believe that this Look at the film was safe.

[@secretsofdune]

Perhaps, but the oppressor is Paul Muad'Dib, not the Fremen, he uses them. He is in large part, part of the problem as we all know despite his intentions. But the filmmakers don't really address these issues.

[@joaovictorkelima2551]

@@secretsofdune in fact, Paul is the cataclysm to start this fanatical adoration of the Fremens, but that of the mass/population that was the Harkonnen's tormentors managed to come from an immeasurable pressure of discontent and that has the possibility of getting it back, that is, the oppressed becomes the oppressor in that they have a conscience in the right of a system to dehumanize through the Violence of radicalism

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

And that is part of the problem. People today already see Paul as a hero and if he is a bad guy then so are the Fremen. It's why Dune Messiah even exists and imo failed. If the bad prophecy is actually horrible but leads to a somewhat good ending, people will still support a monster. And nobody in Hollywood likely wants to make it seem as if a Muslim-coded terror group has a point when we have real ones doing... Whatever horrible acts they are doing. ​@@secretsofdune

[@paavobergmann4920]

I thought the Sardaukar were speaking Imperial Galach, what with being the originators of House Corrino?

[@KO-vb4tg]

I kind of understand the word jihad not being used without alteration, as there’s a whole media ecosystem that loves to go after things like that in the dumbest way possible. But I don’t see why it’s “unrealistic” to have a recognizably Arabic-derived language. In a story where two of the major characters are named Paul and Jessica, I think we can allow for some linguistic persistence. Also, there’s no reason to think that linguistic change would continue at the same pace in a world with widespread literacy. Before the Butlerian Jihad, there would have been even more technology calcifying linguistic patterns. And that’s not to mention the special role of the Quran in codifying Arabic language rules and patterns.

[@secretsofdune]

Very well put and you make some valid points. I guess it is understandable but disappointing as I think I mentioned or at least will do in the near future, they could have used this opportunity as a teaching moment to deconstruct the term or at least open up interesting debates surrounding the term at least. It's funny because a lot of the articles on Dune use words like Jihad and the other Arabic words that don't even appear in the film. We would have talked about the terms regardless, but not having them in the film makes it as though those terms had nothing to do with the books. It kind of creates this weird divide between the book readers and film watchers. Then, because the film watchers love it so much when they find out the truth about the words, languages, characters, absence of Arabic etc, they say, it was better not to use it, the movie is better than the book. It isn't a pleasant outcome at the very least.

[@ReviveHF]

Meanwhile in Star Wars, High Galactic Basic is basically British English written in Latin alphabet while Low Galactic Basic is American English written in Aurabesh.

[@DiscipleOfHeavyMeta1]

11:47 The writing system evokes those used in Dravidian languages.

[@secretsofdune]

I'd say closest to it is Tamil, but I'm more interested in what Frank Herbert evoked rather than a language creator enthusiast.

[@SuperParadox42]

Personally, I hear the "Neo-Chakobsa" phrase that's translated as "Long Live the Fighters" as "Adam Vrishee A'Santa," based upon rewatching the scenes where it is spoken and comparing how different characters/actors actually say it (different accents are supposed to be in play, of course). I've paid close attention to the middle part of the phrase, and am quite certain that the correct sound to begin it is "VR" rather than "V" or "R" or some other consonant sound, though I'm somewhat less certain of the proper transliteration of the phonemes (I don't know phonetic spelling at all well) and for that matter, of the other phonemes in the phrase at all.

[@secretsofdune]

at 19:30 you at the bottom apparently that is the phrase from Peterson himself.

[@nullentrophy]

I remember him calling the book bible when it comes to the creative process of the movie. I wish it is all WB's doings

[@secretsofdune]

It seems that the Bible is not followed as much as it used to be... It's hard to pinpoint who made what decisions and place any blame because they literally haven't addressed anything to do with this "elephant in the room" topic. Nothing on the press tour, the subsequent articles, the bts documentaries, nothing.

[@benjalucian1515]

I just read this good line from the short story "Story of your life" where scientists are trying to interpret a language from an alien species. One scientist comments that one theory of the structure of alien's language is "too difficult" and thus wasn't logical that they would build a language like that. The other scientist comments, "You mean like English?" English is notoriously one of the most difficult languages to master. Like Mandarin. So your idea that the Fremen would not have such a difficult language because...you think they're too primitive to have developed a complex language?

[@secretsofdune]

No, I don't think that at all. I'm taking into consideration everything Frank Herbert said about the Chakobsa language in Dune and the events that occur in that universe, and I'm saying that their written language would be much more like Arabic with or without tashkil and i'jam (the embellishments and dots on the lettering for those unaware). Peterson's neo-chakobsa (a phrase he termed himself) is far too busy, 100x more than Arabic. They are humans, not aliens and they are an efficient people. The language doesn't seem to reflect that, with all due respect. That does not mean to say the Fremen cannot create such a language. They are actually a people who focus more on oral traditions, transmitting accounts through stories and memorization and this is something similar to Arabs with religious texts like Hadith (a term in Dune) and the Qur'an itself.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@secretsofdune *They are actually a people who focus more on oral traditions* Are they though? I thought the basic religion of the Duneverse was the Orange Catholic Bible. Fremen live in cities also, don't forget. Not all of them are desert wanderers. They have a complex culture not only in the cities but in seitch

[@secretsofdune]

The main Fremen in Dune part one are those Sietch dwellers which are hidden. That is why their numbers were unknown hence why Leto sent out Duncan to make contact with them. The ritual oral tradition is present when they talk about Mish Mish and Ramadhan on Bela Tegeuse, transmitting the stories orally in a communal way. It’s defined as a ritual too.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@secretsofdune Isn't Ramadan celebrated by reading the Q'uran? The Muslims are a "people of the book", not really an oral tradition.

[@secretsofdune]

Today it is but originally the Quran was transmitted orally from the Prophet Muhammed to his companions and they memorized it orally, it was only much later that the memorized Qur’an was compiled into texts. As I mentioned before the Fremen talk about songs called Hadiths which were also sayings of the Prophet and companions which is another oral tradition in Islam that were later compiled as books. Stilgar calls them science of tradition and calls them songs which means they are oral traditions as they originally were I guess. I’m sure there are written traditions too, but there is quite a significant amount of evidence of oral traditions among the Fremen.

[@Aelf23Raed]

Este video es BRUTAL!

[@Aurora2097]

Read the Dune encyclopedia? There are interesting articles on galach and Fremen in it. I wish they had worked with them in the movie. It also explains why so many Fremen words are debased arabic, tbey're drawn frommthe other-memory of wild reverend mothers.

[@phillylifer]

Sounds like a tourist in arakis

[@secretsofdune]

I feel bad for saying that haha 🙊

[@21gramsofsoul]

I really enjoyed this video, and thank you for it. I am not an Arabic speaker, but I did notice the changes made to the language used in the film VS the novel. Not to take away from a film version of Dune that was not only loved by people who never read the novel, but enjoyed by people who did as well; it did seem overly careful of certain anti-arab sentiments that IMO were not just cowardly but disrespectful.

[@secretsofdune]

Glad you enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time out to watch it! I think it was all about their approach to depicting the Fremen and the topic of zealotry/extremism. If written balanced and fair, depicting all facets of that from the victim of extremism to those who are to blame for inciting it more to the actual perpetrators of it, then I think it would have been a much more fascinating and daring depiction. It would have earned profound respect I think and opened up incredible conversations I feel. Cowardly seems an appropriate word.

[@SpaceFraggle1234]

I speak English and some Spanish. I liked the way most of the languages were spoken. But something was missing, "jihad". It just doesnt feel like DUNE, without that word.

[@simkoning4648]

Yeah, I'm going to agree with Peterson. The idea that anything recognizable would persist for *20 thousand years* is ludicrous. Yes, this is a universe with giant sand worms, but anyone with a basic education understands how much English has changed over a 1,000 years, or how much the Romance languages evolved from Latin over 2,000 years. It was literally the Stone Age 20,000 years ago. The languages should be as different from those of today as Hindi is from Irish!

[@secretsofdune]

@@simkoning4648 then I guess Dune maybe isn’t for you, because the author didn’t write that in the Dune books. Lost knowledge was recalled from genetic unlocking through the bene gesserit. The languages didn’t persist through, rather they returned through miraculous ways.

[@Varukimm]

For some reason i see the fremen to be closer to the mongolians, as nomadic and harsh environment shaped cultures, and see the sardaukars as more like roman pretorians or templar knights.

[@Eagle_the_18th]

I just find its a bit of a missed opportunity and a shame that the Arabic and Islamic themes aren't conveyed more through the language. That said in this current day when making a film adaptation about the dangers of fanatic belief you'd be treading a pretty fine line with depicting Arabic elements without being misinterpreted as Islamophobic So, in a way I think the language changes are an unfortunate product of the time we live in and what audience's pre-conceived notions are about certain topics. Though thats just my opinion on the issue and I still enjoyed the film nonetheless

[@secretsofdune]

Yes I do think you're right. And this comes back to something I kept telling myself after seeing the films: "Dune Part One and Two were made in the wrong times."

[@mainstay.]

Well said.

[@secretsofdune]

Thanks I appreciate it.

[@EdWiley671]

No Harkonnen?

[@secretsofdune]

The Harkonnen language was also English heavily modified by the sound crew, created in the same way as the Sardaukar language. I chose to focus on the Sardaukar language instead. I'll mention the Harkonnen language in my ultimate Dune Part One and Two review probably.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

Um, Mr. Secrets, Gaelic is not "particularly associated with Scotland." The Scottish dialect, Gaidhlig, is an offshoot of Middle Irish, and was spread to Scotland from Ireland from at least the Late Roman period and into the medieval by a complex process of cultural assimilation, military expansion and religious conversion (the Irish Gaels were Christian long before the local Picts or the Anglo-Saxons to the south, but not before Brythonic speaking Celtic Britons). The Irish language is still known as Gaeilge or Gaelann in that language. Gael simply means an ethnic Irish person and was interchangeable with the Latin term Scottus or Scoti (Scot) and the terms 'Irish' and 'Erse' in English and Anglic Scots dialects until about the 12th century, as there was no real ethnic difference between Ireland and Scotland until the intermarriage of the Scottish royal classes with Anglo-Norman nobles and the latter's invitation to English, French and Flemish settlers to settle the burghs (Scottish lowland towns) around that time. Gael has come to mean a Gaelic speaker in its Scottish form, but originally had exactly the same meaning as both Irish and Scot. Gael (member of the culture) is usually contrasted with Gall (foreigner). There are only 40,000 speakers of Scottish Gaidhlig, and it is only sparsely taught in Scotland but Irish is a compulsory school language for all native-born Irish citizens in the Irish republic, with conditions like dyslexia exempted, and up to 1.8 million retain some level of ability in it after leaving school. 250,000 or so are truly conversational and for about 80,000 it's either the daily primary language or a fully fluent second language. Source; Is Gael mise agus Éireannach freisin (I'm Irish both by ethnicity and nationality).

[@secretsofdune]

I was going by the Oxford Languages definition but I thank you for that more thorough insight into the definition. I think this video could have easily been twice as long if I really delved into everything.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

@@secretsofdune It's actually probably a good thing the Oxford Languages definition has updated, because the tedious traditional tendency to describe the Irish language as "Gaelic" (equivalent to calling the German language "Teutonic" or "Allemanic" the French "Gallic" or the Chinese lanquage "Sinitic") somewhat obscured the fact that the language was the civilisational language of a people before colonisation. In other words, it was an imperial conceit, used to disguise the fact that the Catholic majority of the 1500s-1800s, who generally could not speak English, were in fact the indigenous population and a distinct nation and people. The contemporary convention is to call the Irish branch of the language tree "Irish" when speaking English and the Scottish one "Gaelic" (pronunced 'Gallick" just to confused matters) or Gaidhlig (pronunced 'Gallig'). So yes, you're half right to say Gaelic is associated with Scotland, but Gael itself is a (somewhat Romantic) synonym for ethnic Irish person. So associated with Scotland in modern times, but traditionally Ireland, also. Oxford, as ever, has steered you wrong. So it's not at all your fault. Bloody Oxford, never educated anyone correctly. Look at Boris Johnson.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

@@secretsofdune Great video, otherwise, btw, keep them up. Can't wait to see the third in the trilogy!

[@DrLynch2009]

Peterson sounded to me like the usual "i can do it better than the original author" speech.

[@secretsofdune]

It did come across that way in some of the answers. As I said I think he did way more work than he needed to in the movie, but he was probably just fulfilling the brief set to him by the filmmakers.

[@niyanlan8928]

The bagpipes aren’t even remotely Scottish. That’s just a modern day manufactured view of culture.

[@TrangleC]

If it is Anglo-Slavic, then why do they use German words like "Landrad" or "Na Baron" (from German "nah" = near or close). Also, didn't Herbert say that the empire is basically a space-version of the "Holy Roman Empire" and Paul is basically Space-Napoleon? Some of the language spoken by the Sardaukar general sounded Serbo-Croatian to me. ("Shto?" = "What?")

[@secretsofdune]

Well Galach borrows from many languages. But I think he called it Anglo-Slavic due to the two main powers at the time: the US and Russia.

[@TrangleC]

@@secretsofdune Doesn't seem as if he put much current day politics into the story. People say it is basically just a retelling of Napoleon's story, in space. The young, noble military genius who gathers a army of fanatics to topple a decrepit empire (the Holy Roman Empire) and the concept of the "Landrat" is directly lifted out of exactly that part of history. Herbert just added some "Lawrence of Arabia" Middle-Eastern romanticism, which was popular among intellectuals at the time and then added a lot of contrivances to it to explain why everybody is fighting over some remote piece of desert, why there are no computers and why people still stab each other with swords and knives in the far future.

[@richlisola1]

Gallech is not English, it’s English blended with various Slavic languages which then evolved over thousands of years

[@eliqfor1]

Anyone speaking aramaik or hebrew finds the "arabic" reference hilarious , especially since 9o % of terms in books are essentially early hebrew or aramaik (about christ time and 3-4 centuries after )

[@secretsofdune]

Other than Kwisatz Haderach, there's quite a low percentage of Hebrew words in the first three books compared to the Arabic, by alot. It's mostly classical and colloquial Arabic terms which was the authors intention as he has stated in many interviews.