Dune: Who Are The Mysterious Daniel and Marty?

Spoilers! In Frank Herberts 6th novel in the Dune Series, Chapter House Dune, two mysterious Characters known as Daniel and Marty are introduced. They are first mentioned when they appear to Duncan Idaho in the great hold of a no ship. It was the place were the sisterhood had brought the last surviving worm of Arrakis in the wake of the Honored Matre attack on the planet. The residual spice left over in the placed seemed to trigger Idaho's prescient eye.
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[@dionysg205]

Not strictly Daniel and Marty related but rather about Chapterhouse Dune. After I read it, always had the feeling that it concluded a cyclical narrative of history where the no ships passengers where the ancestors of the Fremen of Arrakis. They would ultimately find a planet to inhabit, introducing the worm to that environment thus planting the "seeds" for the spice and their reverent mother practicing her rituals.

[@johngrady1755]

Woah. That's a wonderful observation

[@runevi]

Always pictured the American Gothic painting when reading about Daniel and Marty.

[@Tamalain]

Same here.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

Ditto.

[@manucitomx]

Me too

[@ShortBusExpressions]

No doubt!

[@tessierashpoolmg7776]

Painfully obvious.

[@raksh9]

I always found this final reveal/twist to be interesting. The slaves became masters after enough experience and knowledge had been gained. It could be seen as a parallel to the events that brought about the Butlerian jihad. Thinking machines eventually became so great that they challenged their human creators; in this case, genetically engineered organisms gained so much knowledge that they surpassed their creators. The Tleilaxu, ironically, created the same problems of the Butlerian jihad but with living organisms. It's also a commentary about artificial life and how it is used. The Tleilaxu viewed the Face Dancers as expendable slaves, but they became their own people over time.

[@neuromancer8796]

humans: ah shit, here we go again

[@cedriceric9730]

Yes and the face dancers were going to be waaay worse

[@Freakincident]

Well said

[@pawet.7415]

thinking machines didn't challenged humans. Titans reprogrammed core codex of machines, thats why machines start to killing.

[@TylerjWebb]

I love that parallel. The one interesting thing is that Frank Herbert didn't write the story of the butlarian jihad but was potentially about to write its mirror image.

[@duncanidaho4787]

This haunting mystery is some of what makes Chapterhouse a great piece of art.

[@Dadutta]

as i recall we are directly told or it is at least unambiguously implied that they are advanced face dancers in chapterhouse.

[@duncanidaho4787]

@@Dadutta Indeed, but the repercussion of this is unknown in the great scheme.

[@caseychapman5726]

@@Dadutta their identity is revealed st the end of Hunters of dune and somewhat in the jihad trilogy

[@kamaeq]

@@caseychapman5726 Which is a separate alternate version to Frank Herbert's Dune universe. A simpler, less epic and shoddier version, like a bad fanfic.

[@PadraigTomas]

@@kamaeq Years ago an English Professor said to me that a story is a house of cards which, if it is good, convinces you that it has the substance of reality. In Brian Herbert's hands the cards collapse.

[@_3x15_]

I'm already trying to imagine Jason Momoa as Duncan. "Daniel, check out that buff fella!"

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

LOL, I'm also trying to imagine him. As a shapeshifter, it's a challenge for me!

[@brovold72]

That adaptation is DOA.

[@TheAzmdain]

And he is going to be The supreme Being lol

[@chefaiden8135]

@@brovold72 your comment didn’t age too well lol. i thought mamoa was great and i’m not even a fan of his.

[@brovold72]

@@chefaiden8135 Agree completely.

[@LordWaltimus]

To me, they're obviously the face dancers that grew beyond anyone elses abilities, and they are the threat that Leto saw and had to avoid. The ship leaving at the end is the final hope of humanity and the fruition of the golden path. No one, anywhere can control them. The passage discussing how slaves and masters fight endlessly is the clue here I think.

[@wellesmorgado4797]

I do not think they were the danger that Leto anticipated. I think they were the continuation of the golden path itself since there was no evil in them, and I think they were good, really good. I see them as the mature (hence senior citizens) humanity sought for by Leto, and always dreamed by the BG, when they had time in between their plots. They were slaves who outgrew their condition and became true and better humans than everybody else.

[@cedriceric9730]

Yes , presceint face dancers

[@cedriceric9730]

@@wellesmorgado4797 Its impossible for a face dancer to be " good" LOL The tleilaxu value vileness and the face dancer is the apex of this. Gifted with prescient abilities they would do what comes naturally

[@wellesmorgado4797]

@@cedriceric9730 It is not impossible for the advanced face dancers such as D & M. As they absorb new personas they absorb values outside their original programming.

[@derweltenwanderer]

To me they always felt like Frank Herbert and his wife discussing the writing of the book…

[@lucaschacon7436]

How wonderful

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Beverly was lady Jessica!

[@BuckFutterd]

That would be a great way to end wouldn't it. I bet it would have been that but he died.

[@lucaschacon7436]

@@BuckFutterd yeah. Would be sobering imo.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 That would have meant that Brian was Paul and his sister (I don't recall her name) was Alia. It's not an analogy I like.

[@Reynevan100]

I feel like the ending of Chapterhouse, that cliffhanger and great secret unrevealed, is the perfect way to end. Yes, if he lived maybe Herbert would have continued, but he didn't, and it ends all on this note of an older couple watching the events like gods, breaking 4th wall a little and suggesting maybe it's the author playing jokes on Duncan, because... It's so much. So much story, plots, characters. Yeah, that was enough, the story might continue, I had such cool planet ready for them, but that was enough, time to let this universe continue on its own, without creator-god guidance, in the heads of readers. Time to take care of that garden... No hate for Brian, he tried, but what can a mortal do, compared to one in a billion genius. I may not like his books, and believe it was pointless to try continue his father legacy, instead of letting it all end the way it did... But hey, thumbs up for geneuine effort.

[@cjhepburn7406]

I feel like there must be someone out there who could write a more descent ending. I mean Hunters and Sandworms weren't terrible but couldn't there be a more fitting ending than just Duncan merging with Erasmus? It's a bit Superman 3...

[@Hapa45lolo]

I was just trying to explain the ending to Chapterhouse to my wife a great book indeed

[@not8brand]

i agree so much with this comment

[@MetalGearChris1]

Thank you for your comment. It really help me understand and accept that ending.

[@yikelu]

You know, I liked the sequels and I think it's plausible that Frank had the same overall direction; at the same time I don't think BHKA got the details how Frank would have done them. E.g., it's plausible that the machines are the final big bad of the saga. Some setup for that was in God Emperor, and Face Dancers being the final big bad doesn't seem as grand of an ending. Yet, it's clear that Daniel and Marty weren't machines; perhaps in a Frank version, they'd be puppets of machines or an independent entity. And it's plausible the message of the ending is *spoilers* peace and hybridization, but the way it actually happens goes against a lot of themes of the series and comes off to me as too much fan service. In my own head-canon, the fate of humanity is basically decided in God Emperor and the last 4 books (Heretics thru Sandworms) is a last fun adventure that decides the fate of one universe out of many.

[@olafisashark5105]

My dad knew Frank herbert and would bring him logs for burning. He Lived in a small town called Port Townsend in Washington state. Really nice according too my farther.

[@illuminocalypse5210]

Lol I don't suppose HE ever got ol' Frankie to shed some light on these two frustratingly mysterious characters?

[@olafisashark5105]

@@illuminocalypse5210 he was never friends with him sadly.

[@sparrowhawk9015]

"Stop spying on us," said Martha and Daniel. This implies they are not as powerful as they seem at the very end of the book.

[@AlphaLegionXX]

no, just means they don't want to be seen.

[@mitchellglaser]

The last sentence says it all. So many of Frank's fascinating ideas were reduced to mush in Brian's books.

[@AngryGoats555]

I wonder if Frank’s true Dune 7 would’ve dealt with transcendence, the true enemy, and maybe even the origins of the sand worms.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

This is one change from the Anderson/Herbert novels I absolutely effing HATE! They were FACE DANCERS NOT THINKING MACHINES!!! Chapterhouse made this abundantly clear!!!

[@merrittanimation7721]

I've never read the Dune sequels (but have read the prequels where the Thinking Machines are around) but do think that the Ones with Many Faces would be a phrase which describes the Face Dancers more than the Machines.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

Merritt Animation I have... that was what ruined the sequels for me. It felt like they were intentionally ignoring Frank Herbert's notes in order to tack on/integrate something from their OWN work into the conclusion. They claim Frank's notes had it as thinking machines in human/facedancer bodies... but that seems more like BS they were spouting to justify their drastic change to the story. In doing so it feels like they utterly ruined everything that was set up. Then there was their bringing EVERYONE back from the dead with Golas... which felt like bad fanfiction level writing. I didn't hate the Machine Crusade/Butlerian Jihad prequels... but I absolutely DETESTED the sequels because of these things. They were an absolute betrayal of pretty much EVERYTHING Frank had been building the series towards.

[@planetoftheatheists6858]

Shai Hulud will judge them and cast their water upon the sand

[@tatitorodriguez376]

Planet of the Atheists if he doesn’t decide to change the old man of the desert as well that is.

[@tatitorodriguez376]

Agreed,.....but if he was so insistent on making the change,he could of had the best of both worlds by playing around with the idea that the ancient machines were the ones who freed theses two from there masters.

[@aperson22222]

One thing I know for certain: They’re not robots.

[@stevenirizarry1304]

cyborgs

[@hungarianbeast]

That idea was shit, pulled straight outta Anderson's ass.

[@jeanfish7]

They are face dancers...who evolved far beyond the originals.

[@hungarianbeast]

@Da Squirrel In my home country (Hungary) Sandworms is one of the rarest Dune books. I was hunting for it for years knowing that it is BAD. The moment I read that the evil robot has a lava fountain I was expecting only the worst of the worst. Like many have pointed out, they are evolved face dancers, imo the ending of Chapterhouse indicates that everything is cyclical, and Duncas was important for the face dancers couse of his many lives and thousand years of experience, which the face dancers wanted to use (at least this is my 2 cents).

[@hungarianbeast]

@Da Squirrel When I read hunters I only read the og 6 books 1 times I wasn't angry or annoyed. But by the time I got to Sandworms I read the whole sage 3 times each and man was I pissed. I wont read any prequel from them.

[@daniels7907]

Consider that Daniel and Marty were watching Duncan and Company inside a *no-ship* ! Then remember that Leto was worried about *something* in the future that possessed prescience and threatened humanity. But Leto could not clearly perceive the source of the threat, so he went to great lengths to develop means of thwarting prescience (Ixian no-technology, the Siona Atreides gene). It looks very much like he failed. Face Dancers with even greater prescience than Leto possessed (Leto could not see no-ships or their contents, nor could he see Siona) playing God with humanity from afar.

[@mregskwach6037]

Daniel S So now we’re looking at cosmic levels of prescience. Muadib achieved prescience of social systems and local universal phenomena. Let II pushed it further in time while simultaneously looking back to the beginning as the Janus Archetype. The looking both ways enabled the knowledge that prescience had to be overcome immediately, in the cosmic sense, because cosmic levels of prescience existed in the infinite, which would enslave all of humanity. Knowing perfectly the historical patterns, he knew humanity well enough to know how to “teach a lesson that your bones will remember” to quote God Emperor. Leto’s project was to make avoiding prescient traps an innate instinct. And he knew that Duncan Idaho was key to it.

[@daniels7907]

@@mregskwach6037 But the catch was that evolution would continue as a result of Leto's own Golden Path. It wasn't just Daniel and Marty. Miles Teg could pinpoint no-ships, something Leto himself could not do. Duncan had also, over his many incarnations, attained advanced prescience. It would appear that creating widespread invisibility to prescience simply caused various genetic lineages to evolve ever-greater prescience to compensate. Since Leto could not foresee all of these individuals whose prescience exceeded his own, to say nothing of all the holes he created in his own vision with the no-ships and the Siona factor, Leto really had *no* idea where the Golden Path led after the Scattering. Ironically, his grand long-term plan for humanity only worked during his own lifetime.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

Daniel S I honestly wonder if that was Herbert's intent, in the end. The entire series was basically intended to show why blindly following charismatic leaders will lead to our doom... and well Leto II was arguably the ultimate one. Not only that but he created and enacted a plan for all of humanity to follow and adhere to regardless of whether or not they were aware of it... by engraving it in their bones as it were. What do you suppose the ultimate result of that would be? If anything like the rest of the series, I'd honestly be surprised if he didn't utterly fail and it backfire spectacularly. And well, what do you think the result of a plan designed to save mankind and ensure its survival for all eternity backfiring would be? I can tell you one thing... it isn't salvation. PS And it SURE AS HELL ISN'T A GOLDEN AGE CREATED BY THE MERGING OF MAN AND MACHINE!!!

[@thegoodwin]

@@Kenshiro3rd , I speculate that the humans will branch off into many branches of evolution where some humans evolved into this whereas others involved into that.

[@daniels7907]

@@thegoodwin Probably. The key to speciation is separation. The Scattering was just that. Not everyone went to the same place. In fact, it's implied that humans may have spread into *other universes* ! The Bene Gesserit acknowledge that it is impossible to really know. Given time and the lack of a central authority controlling evolution, new human sub-species could evolve.

[@ronin47-ThorstenFrank]

The ignorance that DaM were face dancers that gathered enough power in the sequels always angered me. And the amount of power they had is the real unsolved mystery of the original books. Sadly Frank Herbert wasn't able to complete it and he didn't seem to have left notes on both. Anyway, again an excellent analysis

[@Youtube_is_Trash]

I think the "net" he saw was in fact all the machinations overlapping each others that was supposed to drive Idaho, Teg and Sheanna straight to those two Face Dancers. Hence why it faded away when he took away the ability of the no-ship to get there.

[@christianealshut1123]

I've read somewhere that Daniel and Marty were meant to be representations of Frank Herbert and his own wife, Beverly, who also was the model for Lady Jessica. (This would explain the statement that they are wearing "antique" clothing, which is what our contemporary clothing would appear as to someone in the far future.) They may indeed by face dancers, but the passage you quote puts this into a context where Duncan Idaho sees something he is aware he is not entirely familiar with, and is aware that what he is describing may only be his way of making sense of what he sees. So they may not actually be face dancers. Just imagine for one moment that authors would be able to enter the novels created by them and interact with the characters they created, though essentially they are the characters they have created, having taken their form while they wrote them. What would the authors of Dune appear like to their characters if they met them? As somebody who can enter into and create different personas at different times, taking their shape in the moement they do so. And this is essentially the characteristic of a face dancer - being able to take the shape of others. I think this is essentially what Frank Herbert describes in Duncan's "interaction" with them. I find it strange for the son thorwing away this interpretation, which was initially his own, and then doing something quite different. I never liked that whole Matrix/Terminator approach to the thinking machines that BH and KJA took in their Dune novels; when reading the original novels. There need not have been an all-out war in the conventional sense between men and thinking machines for the Butlerian Jihad to make sense. The Jihad may very well have been sparked by some parts of humanity realizing that having the thinking machines led to a certain degree of complacency and laziness on the part of humankind, and to a wilting of their mental capacities (why learn to calculate properly if you have a machine that can do this for you?), while other parts of humanity would not accept this. It might be as simple as that. And the true Enemy II that Leto foresaw may not actually have been the thinking machines, but those who made the thinking machines, i.e. humankind is its own worst enemy and needs to be protected from itself, from its own desires that often keep it from achieving its true potential. It's for the same reason that he eliminated prescience, because it would ultimately keep mankind from struggling as it has to struggle in order to achieve said potential (if you know what the future brings, you can be conned into thinking you need not really work to bring this about to happen, because it's "ordained" to happen anyway).

[@danielwelch8422]

Is it possible that the metaphor of Daniel and Marty is where a revelation of co-authorship is revealed, and the creative work is being set loose? Maybe, Frank Herbert wanted to release the work while his wife wanted to have a more definitive (captive?) ending.

[@Mymloch]

Some things are just better when you never know any more about them.

[@PaulLundgren1970]

Well said. Another great example is David Brin's "Uplift" books. Kind of a cliffhanger at the end of book 6, but a wonderfully tantalizing one.

[@punknoodles0]

The Shrike from Hyperion...

[@hamo1701]

It always bugged me that BH and KJA retconned this. I thought evolved Facedancers were an excellent idea as to what direction the series was heading. At first glance this seems kind of humdrum, but think about the implications. They has absorbed so much memory as to be colony organisms is a similar yet different way to Leto II. Their technology could bridge spacetime in a similar way to prescience, but could also communicate and interact with objects across the distance. The scattering caused a speciation event among humans. This is the Golden Path. BG and Fish Speakers in The Scattering evolved into the Honored Matres. Ix circumvented the Guild with navigation machines, and Leto with Noships. The BG continued along doing their thing and the BT focused on producing Gholas, Facedancers, sligs, Melange, etc, but did not progress all than much. The old empire kind of stagnates to a certain degree, while most of the action is "out there" The Facedancers who scattered, on the other hand, inherited ALL the strengths of every major power from the old empire! They have surpassed the Genetic mastery of the Bene Tleilax. Their technology has surpassed that of Ix by finding new ways to use Holtzmann's equations. They have even greater psychokenisthetic control than the Bene Gesserit, and can memory print. They are physically more than a match for pretty much anyone except maybe Teg. They may not be as durable as Leto II, and their memories are perhaps not as robust, but they would be virtually God-like with those abilities at their disposal. Plus, yeah, Marty and Daniel being avatars for Frank and Bev makes perfect sense.

[@AreEia]

Wholeheartedly agree, especially the part of speciation being a big part of the golden path. Something that has always resonated with me when it comes to Dune and the Golden path is that it is pretty focused on evolutionary/soceital dead ends. Not just the unseen enemy in the sense of a physical foe, but more so in the dangers of evolution and the possibility that mankind may end up in a evolutionary "valley" and from there just completely stagnate or even de-evolve. There is also the posibillity of social stagnation(as seen in the empire before ) unless mankind fragments and turns into thousands upon thousands of different "species" and societies scattering across the stars and ensuring that humanity as a whole will always exist.

[@hamo1701]

@@AreEia Yay. Very well said. I agree, and love finding like-minded people to talk about these things with.

[@abc8722]

Marty and Daniel are also able to enjoy a chill day, and have time or the nature around them, and love. So even if this is an event where they will be the species that next species that survives, they are still part of the human spirit -- or an improvement therein.

[@arandil1]

Additionally, if the direction that F Herbert intended to go was the introduction of the last survivors of the Titans being the BIG UNSEEN THREAT, then the characterization of Daniel and Marty is all wrong. It seems quite clear that they value their freedom from the Masters, and intend only to study and test those on the No-Ship... which would imply that they were intended by F Herbert to be an answer, or at least allies , to a greater threat...

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@arandil1 Oh, please. The original novels had NOTHING in them about the Titans, so there were no "survivors" of them.

[@ScaryBaldMan]

Oh, Holy Void, I wish Frank Herbert had lived to finish the series! I never liked what Brian and Kevin did to it. It just felt wrong, like the emphasis was in the wrong places and on the wrong things. I envisioned that this was the final obstacle along the Golden Path, and that the "net" wasn't just entrapping them, but ALL of humanity. And Duncan was Leto's final piece to escaping that final obstacle. Look at what Duncan does. He erases everything! No maps. No information. No history. Just himself and the people aboard that no-ship in an uncharted universe. Duncan and the others represented a microcosm of the old humanity in the universe, and would be the ones to build a new humanity, totally free of Bene Gesserit, Muad'Dib, Leto, and whatever else the scattering spawned. Not bound by prescience, but also unable to hide from it (See Miles Teg). Instead, they were acutely aware of it and its traps. That's the direction I saw the series going by the end of Chapterhouse. Old humanity lost to the whims of Daniel and Marty. New humanity finally truly free of prescience.

[@adamlandas]

Wow, the was insightful.

[@hannabaal150]

They got away from Daniel and Marty. It's a bit anticlimactic after the rise of Murbella but it keeps things in perspective for me. That's as good a place to end the series as any.

[@digitalbookworm5678]

At least they had all of Frank's notes and manuscripts. I personally am glad they continued his work. They filled in many historical facts that Frank only hinted at and did their best to do it in Frank's style. They worked on the main storyline for years while writing sidebars. I think Frank himself would be proud of what they've done. 😀

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

@@digitalbookworm5678 I think he'd disown his son faster than Moneo dropped Duncan on his arse. Well not actually, but I think Brian might have a Bene Gesserit banquet if Frank read sandworms and hunters.

[@lsjansen]

Such a great summation. I once came across something that might kind of support this idea - from John Clute (Science Fiction: The Illustrated Encyclopedia), I think, who suggested that The Godmakers, also by Frank Herbert, takes place well after the events in Chapterhouse when anyone could have the potential to be a god, including a mouse. I always thought this fit nicely into what happens at the end of the series.

[@tatitorodriguez376]

It was blasphemy to not keep these two face dancers,....but if he still was insistent on making the change he could of had the best of both worlds by simply playing around with the idea that the ancient machines were the ones responsible for freeing these two from their masters in the first place.

[@sirlight4954]

To be fair, I think that Daniel being Omnius and Marty being Erasmus makes more sense to me than them being ordinary face dancers. They possess too much power, to be able to cast a omnipresent net across all of the spacetime, for this ability to be acquired from only escaping Tleilaxu masters. Instead, the fact that modified Tleilaxu are a product of thinking machine tinkering with a Tleilaxu face dancer deos provide the explanation for the discussion of old man and woman, and does explain why they became more powerful than ordinary face dancers

[@vigora]

I need a no-ship to travel to a parallel universe where Frank Herbert lived a few more years to finish his work. And not having to see that basofy that Brian herbert wrote.

[@dalehendrick8584]

I think it was a breaking the fourth wall and Herbert acknowledging this was his last book.

[@billymanziel5666]

@@peachmelba1000 they almost explicitly say they are facedancers. How is that over analyzing it?

[@greenlantern354]

I’m really enjoying these videos. Thanks for making them! 👍👍

[@karan_hiremath]

My thoughts on it are that Daniel and Marty are the dangerous threat that Leto saw and feared and "the golden path" was to stagnate that eventuality for long enough to allow him to breed a new Kwisatz Haderach in the form of Duncan Idaho. The genius of this was that he used both the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu to achieve this and their secret programs which also created the very threat of the Face Dancers.

[@grumpyparsnip]

So glad to see attention brought to what I always thought was such a strange aspect of Chapter House Dune. When I read the books so many years ago, I was just thinking to myself "wtf is going on?" when I read the Daniel and Marty passages.

[@deanirwin4997]

😂 yeah, me too!

[@AngryGoats555]

I always theorized that the Holtzmann principles were discovered by Daniel and Marty to be able to transcend (breach) time. Thus that every time a ship enters foldspace, it is itself transcending briefly into this space.

[@robert9ish]

Wow. Interesting coincidence. I literally finished 'Chapterhouse' for the third time about 15 minutes ago. I flick on KZbin and this is in my recommendations. Cool.

[@tomtheeman5861]

There are no coincidences...

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Your computer is a thinking machine and it knows about your daily life hahahahaah, I have that feeling too.

[@robert9ish]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 It would seem to have the prescience of the Tyrant himself... :-)

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Keep it away from your melange reserves.

[@StalewindFarto]

synchronicity... I used to laugh at this phenomenon, not anymore

[@slak102themistocles9]

Your videos are always extremely high quality.

[@carmensavu5122]

My Dad interpreted the ending as everything we have seen so far being in actuality various critters in a banal Earth garden. As in, none of what happens in the Dune saga is actually real. For this reason he refuses to read any Dune sequels. :D

[@sillypinkewe]

I love your videos so much. The Dune series has a biblical effect on me, it is nice to explore it with someone else who appreciates its magic and vast depth. Thank you.

[@sunglassshinpan1352]

"Anything would be welcome... I haven't eaten in two days; and there has been much activity!" - Miles Teg

[@UllyrWuldan]

Excellent choice of wording there, that KJA and BH "ignored" Chapterhouse

[@akrybion]

Hunters of Dune was good until the "reveal" of Daniel and Marty. Then it all went to shit. My only hope is that in some parallel universe Frank Herbert lived to end the novels. Too sad we aren't that universe.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I generally enjoyed Reading Hunters, although I have the feeling that it was written too quicly. It has good points, and Sandworms is not bad at all. Specially in Hunters, they sometimes experiment with the grotesque and I love it, For example, the death of Uxtal. That guy was a fucking miserable all his life xDDDDDDD, but when I read that kind of scenes reminded me of the Spanish writer Valle-Inclán, or the Argentine Osvaldo Lamborghini. They both had nothing to do with science fiction. About the reveal of Daniel and Marty... I spoiled myself before Reading Hunters so I knew it, and I tried to relax, but after what Erasmus did, (once again), I felt completely outraged! It's better not to think about a parallel universe where Frank lived to end his great series. This is what we have, we like it or not.

[@yohanalexander2850]

I hope the tleilaxu were real so they would be able to make frank herbert ghola, awaken him, and tell him to finish dune 7

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Maybe you have not thought about it but it would be necessary to torture him physically or psychologically to awaken his memories. I was also very disappointed with the change of Daniel and Marty but I would never cross that limit, not with someone I supposedly admire, just because I do not like what happened.

[@lucaschacon7436]

At the cessation of your body, you will find out.

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 not true, we could also imprint him. Though I'd say that if we could resurrect or impersonate Beverly we could probably just use the Teg-Idaho method, as while we'd be hurting him, it would be kinder and more effective than the other methods I believe (he'd probably be mad to start, but quickly become excited that it worked). The real questions are what would we be teach him pre awakening to ensure the best quality mind and body to create the perfect books, and what would we do to ensure he wrote the books willingly?

[@paulsegers1880]

Daniel and Marty were obviously Face Dancers, and books 7 and 8 don't change that for me

[@GaelicMongrel2023]

I kind of figured they were face dancers who had become sort of "Wild" Kwisatz Haderachs themselves. After absorbing the faces and genetic memories of so many identities over the years they had developed the same sort of abilities that Paul and Leto had.

[@dancegregorydance6933]

It makes sense that as Tlailaxu like the Masters they also attained memories through ghola-ing themselves.

[@lsporter88]

Fascinating and excellent presentation. You really have flavor.

[@peterpayne2219]

Loving your videos!

[@deanirwin4997]

10 minutes worthy of discussion about mysterious characters. 💯 reading it, it feels different, but the way you explained it just gave me 10 mins. of goosebumps, frightening realization about the sinister Daniel and Marty.

[@danimalcollins3564]

great breakdown. i'm late to the series and knew ahead of time that chapterhouse was the last novel in the series that frank herbert wrote. nonetheless, the last few pages, the ones you dissect here, seem like a conclusion. maybe it's the zoom out of frank and his wife discussing the series, and maybe it's a further glimpse into the scattering, the high points of the last two books. either way, the point stands. the books were at their best when delving into the unknown, and they languished when dwelling on the established. whether it is herbert's style or his preference, books 2-5 withhold more than they reveal. i've really enjoyed your deep-dive/synopsis videos of each novel. do you plan on doing one for chapterhouse?

[@VR4Crisis]

My dude, if you ever cross through TN in the future we need to hang and talk over a pint about this stuff! Love your channel.

[@cmiller9800]

I'd have to agree with Brian, I think it was something Frank threw in as an homage to him and his wife Bev. In the version of Chapterhouse I have after the story is an epilogue about his wife, who died a couple years before Chapterhouse was published.

[@darthbrooks4933]

I still believe the face dancers weren’t operating independently. It makes sense that they ran into Erasmus and were then changed by Erasmus and sent back into the old empire.

[@MrJJBhizzle]

Obviously, a version of Rick and Morty from beyond the finite curve..

[@SapaHollidaySaparonia]

In 1971 when I was a teenager, I had a particularly strong acid trip. Several days afterwards I was in a cosy pub in London in a quiet suburb when I saw ribbons of light that appeared like a curtain in front of me. Behind/ through the curtain I could see penguins, snow, a white place. The ribbons began to expand and the pub around me began to become the ribbons. I began to feel cold, I stood up, throwing the table and all the other people's drinks with it and ran out of the pub. I had felt that I was being pulled into that inhospitable reality. Reading Chapter House years later, I was reminded of this. I understand why Duncan would choose to throw himself into the unknown. This is what we do with every decision, autonomy. Frank Herbert was also a great philosopher, remember how he described the universe of magic in Heretics, (page 304)

[@kacenhopkins1668]

Always love your vids,,,

[@vt31008]

Great video very informative

[@ChocolateRuko]

i need to read this series so i can watch all your videos on it.

[@Ven183]

To be honest I like the idea that both endings are true. That Daniel and Marty are both face dancers and AI. Both Omnius and Erasmus had personalities. If the machine empire was the reason the scattering came back, they could have absorbed AI personalities.

[@oberstul1941]

So, do you know how some writers like to put themselves into their work? Clive Cussler does it, Stephen King too and arugably Tolkien (many speculate he's actually Tom Bombadil) and probably others too. When I first read the books I figured that Daniel and Marty are stand-ins for Frank himself and his wife, Beverly. To my surprise Brian Herbert actually confirmed that (maybe confirmed is not the right word; he said something that it could be possible; nevertheless, he had the same idea like me). It's a shame he modified their implied nature and made them AIs. I was actually gonna ask about that, but you already answered it in the video. Great work, man! I massively enjoy that in this overwhelming sea of GOT8 trailer analysis you bring us Dune content. May Shai-Hulud bless you!

[@oberstul1941]

@Bones Sama Ok, I get what you are saying but let's take the cases I mentioned - Clive Cussler basically appears as Clive Cussler in some of his novels and helps out his heroes with information, ammo or whatever they need. A deus ex machina. Likewise, in the Dark Tower, some would consider this a spoiler, so take care..... they travel to another dimension, meet a guy named Stephen King and convince him to write about their world cuz reasons. I hope this got some of the strangeness of the comment off.

[@thegrapefruitheart]

In a way, it’s the perfect ending. In escaping Daniel and Marty’s net, Duncan and the other characters finally escape Frank’s own net - the net of total storytelling control. Throughout the books, Duncan spends his life in service to others... So when he finally escapes, he does it in such a way that nobody can follow. Not even the author.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@thegrapefruitheart Exactly. I've never seen this couple as author avatar figures before but now I've encountered the idea it makes an appropriate end to the series.

[@abc8722]

@@thegrapefruitheart I really like that interpretation. And that means humanity even escaped McDune as well. Frank Herbert, via Leto et al really is saying "just think for yourself, dammit."

[@hannabaal150]

@@thegrapefruitheart You get Best Comment! A great way to end the series.

[@jamesbrost1367]

I'm surprised you gave a whole 15 seconds to expanded dune.

[@thatotherguy8138]

That's probably 12 seconds longer than it deserves in a discussion that includes the Frank Hebert novels.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@thatotherguy8138 I do like the idea that this couple are avatars of Frank and Beverly. It's a neat Coda to the series.

[@thatotherguy8138]

@Alan Pennie Agreed! Though to be honest, if it turned out they were Avatars of you and I, it would still be a better reveal than Ominus and Erasmus.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@thatotherguy8138 Indeed!

[@abc8722]

@@thatotherguy8138 Long live the Orthodox Herbertians and their holy crusade.

[@kylewood2715]

I’m only through Children of Dune, presently, but, after hearing anout these mysterious figures momentarily in another video, I had to watch this video, and, as a result, and probably influened by having just finished Children of Dune, I can’t help but wonder [hope] that these two might be Ghola-reborn Paul and Alia, brought back as Facedancers by the Tlielaxiu after Leto’s rise to power. I know it is robably unlikely, but I really wish that Paul and Alia could have had better outcomes than the ones that befell them

[@jackcoleman5955]

Love this series! The Dune universe is so rich in depth. I really think it fitting that Frank would insert himself and Beverly into the series in this way. An author surely would view his little characters in a similar fashion, being surprised if one ‘escaped’ his narrative! 😉

[@bockscar43]

Friend, have you ever considered continuing the Dune saga, if not why not, your presentations thus far are spot on. Go for it friend.

[@johnst.baptiste3664]

Now you've put a hole in my theory that the painting American Gothic is the universe's true divinity.

[@merrittanimation7721]

I thought it was Nighthawks.

[@LoveProWrestling]

Better than bloody Thatched Cottages at Cordeville

[@21shamsham]

You make the best dune videos

[@stephendean2896]

Your channel was my first favorite and all these years later Your channel is still my favorite I think Iill remember voice till I leave this reality and most likely will even remember your voice into the next reality

[@swardinc]

it is interesting that there where so many possible outcomes, you had the facedancers, the thinking machines i was half expecting a worm to gain intel and start running amoke well i got it half right lol

[@thegoodwin]

Worm getting intelligent and woke, that nearly happened in the Dune game, "Emperor Battle for Dune."

[@alanpennie8013]

@@thegoodwin It's a natural development I reckon.

[@zooropa04]

Yesssss, I've been waiting for this video. Having just finished Hunters of Dune I now know who these two really are (PRESUMABLY this was based off of Frank Herbert's notes, though in truth the points raised in this video have made me question that...) but I loved the quintessential weirdness of them just showing up out of nowhere at the very end of Chapterhouse. Thank you for making this!

[@abc8722]

Honestly, any point they show up doesn't make any sense.

[@zooropa04]

@@abc8722 This... is unfortunately an incredibly fair take....

[@emptyshellaxiom]

Thanks. A good reminder of how Brian Herbert is making ridiculous choices by the way. A part of me is really eager to discover what Frank Herbert had in mind, but another part is satisfied with this open ending. After all, Dune is all about evolution, which is a never-ending story.

[@VespoLiveGaming]

My thought was always that Frank Herbert intended to show the continued evolution of humanity along different paths past chapter house- Leto's golden path set the stage for the scattering, spreading humanity so wide it would evolve among many possible paths at once- so that no matter what happened, at least one would survive and continue to evolve. Leto's reign was basically a birthing of a more cosmically scaled humanity that would eventually diversify. The Brian Herbert/Anderson stories seem to go in the opposite direction and try to undo the speciation and diversity of the scattering by bringing back the past (the machines of the pre- Butlerian Jihad era), while FH was clearly intimating that we would see escalating diversity and ever more exotic variations of humanity- Daniel and Marty were probably meant to be one of the ultimate expressions- the next step in evolution. Turning them into machine intelligences from the past makes them a step backwards- instead of representing the developing future, they became a thing of the past imposing itself on the universe... essentially rendering Leto's Golden Path meaningless- this is why I don't think I can ever accept the Herbert/Anderson books as canon.

[@emptyshellaxiom]

@@VespoLiveGaming totally agreed.

[@DisentDesign]

its kind of sad imo that Franks son has taken his fathers lifes work and milked it for everything its worth than bastardized it with decisions like that you mentioned at the end.

[@lukemaskarinec9970]

I love the idea that Daniel and Marty and Frank and Beverly Herbert, and also like the theory about highly-evolved face dancers-and in a way, I wonder if both could be true at once. I've watched old interviews with Herbert where he talks about how he worked countless different jobs, from news reporter to political speechwriter, as a way to satiate his own endless curiosity. And as an author, he was responsible for inhabiting each of his own characters, imaginatively becoming them in order to create them and understand their qualities, motivations, and histories. These practices seem metaphorically similar to the notion of a face dancer who accumulates the lives, memories, and knowledge of uncountable human beings throughout the history of the universe, becoming a hybrid, composite being with an extensive and multifaceted understanding of reality. I wonder if Herbert saw himself and Beverly as real-life face dancers, in the sense that they were people who thought and felt deeply about imagined worlds and used research, writing, and fantastic speculation and fiction to live many different lives in the far reaches of future space. Envisioning the incredible universe of Dune, yet to come, was the ultimate form of prescience.

[@fritzk3627]

They are Rick and Morty C-139. They are hunting the Genociders.

[@jerryperez5300]

Daniel to Marty: You have done it this time Morty! Marty: I'm, I'm sorry Uncle Rick.

[@Thundrax87]

The way I saw it/read it, is that Daniel and Marty had memories of being Face Dancers, but eventually face dancers merged with thinking machines.

[@abc8722]

Not a bad interpretation, but notice in Frank's hands that means they absorbed a spiritual sense of the nature around them, with time enough for roses, the song of birds, and perhaps love. In Brian and Kevin's hands that became a Scobby-Doo mask reveal of "surprise! We're killer robots!"

[@infini1970]

Love it. I never felt attached to either of them. I felt it was an odd power in the universe we will never understand and as Herbert passed it never will. Herbert Jr. really lacks dimension unfortunately from what I see from your videos and others opinions. I'm still tempted to read his books though. Thank you for your insight. I love the recaps and really could never have done such as you.

[@abc8722]

They are very clunky and heavy-handed using cliche plots from other science fiction series as the connecting structure to an overload of cheap (attempted) fan-service.

[@infini1970]

@@abc8722 Hmmmm Well I'm reading Solaris right now. When I'm done maybe I'll try one of them and see.

[@robinsonsuarez6334]

Awesome stuff

[@jakehorsburgh2878]

The evolved Face dancers are the tleilaxu equivalent of the accidental KH that the bene gesserit didn’t mean to create

[@rullmourn1142]

I so wish that FH had lived to finish the Dune canon...They ignored they were actually face dancers..😡

[@Kenshiro3rd]

Rull Mourn then they added a bunch of fanfiction level twists... and lied about Frank's notes to justify it. It was an absolute BETRAYAL of his work and memory for the sake of cashing in on it, by them.

[@rullmourn1142]

@@Kenshiro3rd ..IKR, the famous notes that no one has ever seen.

[@corumjaelhenirsei344]

This idea is incredibly interesting, though i believe it is not what FH was thinking. I believe they can not ignore they were face dancers since they actualy absorbed tleilaxu masters, as said in the video. You can not absorbe Tleilaxu masters memories if you are not a face dancer yourself. Therefore, they ARE face dancers and they KNOW they are face dancers. This does not mean they are not machine face dancers !!!

[@wrntthmnchrctrs7308]

@@rullmourn1142 PREACH

[@rullmourn1142]

@@corumjaelhenirsei344 ..No, because they were talking about being facedancers to each other in Private..they weren't trying to fool anybody into thinking they were facedancers...ive thought of this same thing long ago.

[@wellesmorgado4797]

Daniel and Marty are perhaps the best of all people in the saga, together with Leto II. They were in a sense teachers to humankind. The tyrant was a harsh teacher while D&M were, maybe, gentle ones. I wish I knew more about these two, but I accept the mystery that comes with them.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

Nets aren't just traps. They can be a source of safety if they are used to catch you if you fall.

[@whom382]

I haven't checked in a few years, but have they ever released what was on that "Dune 7" floppy disk? I'm more interested in that rough outline (if that is what it is), than anything Brian/Anderson wrote.

[@LodvarDude]

In my may read troughs of Frank Herberts Dune-novels, I always saw this as Herbert breaking the fourth wall - but doing it differently. Instead of speaking directly us, he instead speaks to his book-creations. The old couple is Herbet and his wife. Worthy of a true philosopher like Frank Herbert. Though I have read the horrible KJA/B Herbert Dune-novels, I ignore them. They are glorified and poorly written fanfic.

[@lexmodiano417]

That has always been my first impression as well. As for the net, I used to think it was the boundaries of Herbert's imagination : by escaping it, the passengers of the no-ship were simply freeing themselves from the author's control

[@blues998050]

They are Kwisatz Haderach, one who could be “many places at once,”. Bene Gesserit tried to breed one.

[@Kyle_Briggs]

I wish Brian Herbert would permit a re-boot, post Frank's story, abandoning the Kevin J. Wormtounge rot.

[@joelieastell244]

Wonderful video. When they first appeared, I had the sense that m’boy Idaho was on DMT ;)

[@MrGhostsword]

So these two are the ones ensuring that no BG come back from the Scattering, they are collecting millions of people memories.. including genetics of the Atreides..

[@tuckernutter]

Yeah the advanced facedancers paired up with complex technology created by the Scattered Ixians (and maybe throw in some AI there but not the way BH+KJA did it) and it would have been a great surprising combo to reveal The Great Enemy Leto II predicted

[@orsonlannister9847]

Liking the video not only helps Quinn with the wretched algorithm but reminds me which videos I've seen.

[@markzelis2551]

llCool word bro! Insouciant. THANKS! 9:05

[@richarddeese1087]

Clearly, Daniel & Marty WERE face dancers! However, most other things left hanging at the end of Chapterhouse: Dune were more nebulous. How did the Tleilaxu fill in the gaps of Duncan's memories (from his lives when they were unable to retrieve cell samples)? What were they hoping to create by making him as they did? They certainly had more than one purpose in mind. I'm convinced the Tleilaxu of the core (some, at least) knew a lot about various goings on from the Scattering. I recall Leto's words to Hwi: "History is a race between invention and catastrophe". The Honored Matres represented catastrophe to the Core World's, much as something in the Scattering represented catastrophe to the Honored Matres. Duncan was, I think, some sort of 'nexus' - able to sense & connect to things that even the Tleilaxu couldn't fully guess! This seems perfectly in keeping with the general thrust of the books: humans evolve (or discover) new abilities - often just as a certain crisis (or nexus) is reached. It may be that Duncan would've discovered his ultimate purpose. It may have been part of Leto's purpose, too! Sadly, we'll never know. tavi.

[@WmHorus]

I got upset after ChapterHouse knowing it was the last one. I had spent so many years reading and re-reading the books and there was more that could have been said. I did read a couple of his sons books but they were not on the same level as his fathers work.

[@nightsage217]

Honestly those 2 might be the prelude of the great enemies. Imagine the combination of face dancer ability, mentat disciplinary, prescient, and Ixian rampant technology. At worst, it can be Tleilaxu's last venomous kiss.

[@samuelatwood9924]

Daniel and Marty were liberated face-dancers from the scattering. that is true. However, once liberated they made some interesting choices for themselves. ( the futars would be the only choice the books confirmed, but i believe they may have made other choices for themselves that involved thinking machines or their technology). the video states that they had absorbed the memory of many Bene Gesserit sisters. The sisterhood's main goal was to breed for better humans. Listen to what Marty and Daniel said. "And i found a good planet for them. one that would really test their abilities." we know from dune that planets which "test the abilities" of the population will create super soldiers.... (Salusa Secundus and the Sardaukar - Arrakis and the Fremen). it is obvious these two were breeding for better humans, but for what reason? My guess is they were trying to undo some part of Leto II's Golden Path... and/or.... to fight the rise of the thinking machines that may have been re-created by some foolish family that had fled into the scattering (possibly the remnants of House Richese , the IXIAN Masters or even by Daniel and Marty themselves)

[@benegesserit9838]

nice idea...

[@jsbadger]

I admire your take on this. I agree with the sentiment that they are a homage to Frank and his wife, yet at the same time, they are cleverly placed characters in the story line. Not exactly agreeing with the direction Brian took them but it sufficed.

[@panelsofDOOM]

Extra points for using the phrase "begs the question" in the correct context. That is oddly rare that it needs to be mentioned when it actually happens. Good show!

[@AlPHArius-fs9gu]

I wonder if FH was planning a surprise switch and reveal that Daniel and Marty were, while not entirely benevolent, not outright malicious towards non-prescient humans.

[@abc8722]

I think that idea makes sense. After all, they came off as so chill in parts they had. Time enough for birds and roses, and probably love.

[@lombremic4840]

I have no intentions to ever read ED novels by B. Herbert and K. Anderson. What a critical detail to ignore/change

[@pitoperez5611]

I don't understand why people didn't read all the dune books each one was better than the last to the point where I can't read the first book anymore it's too simple for me when I finished the last book and discovered in the last page that there would be no sequel I was literally mind hungry for years for a resolution to so many mysteries brians sequels are very unsatisfactory. is there a place or do you know of any sites with decent fan fiction or speculation ? I must say some of the coments and ideas here are very good love the channel keep up the good work !

[@jamescollins345]

I had wondered about Omnius and Erasmus as Marty and Daniel as well.

[@jeffbryant8113]

I have an unrelated question for IdeasOIAF. Why didn't anybody else repeat what Leto 2 had done and become a sandworm and human symbiot via the sand trout and the right genes to suffuse with spice?

[@Shan_Dalamani]

Who in their right mind would want to?

[@waterhead1029]

I'll save this for my little Dune treat later on break. I don't remember this.

[@peterkelemen1157]

This is meta commentary. It's him ( Herbert) and his wife. He knew he wouldn't finish the series because of his pancreatic cancer and all the references of him having chosen a nice planet to test the crew of the no ship and that he's akin to a god with flowing beards all allude to the fact that it was a meta commentary. As to stealing personas, if you write you habitually steal the personas of those around you, give them a twist as you try to include compelling, interesting or lousy people with baffling shortcomings into your works. He added the face dancer bit to confuse people and not make it all that obvious. Duncan's last shot of folding space into the unknown is literal. Even Herbert didn't know where they'd end up because he didn't have the time to write the story.

[@Raggmopp-xl7yf]

Ok - I know this is super old, but I'm just gonna say it. When I read Chapter House I picture Daniel and Marty as the old farmer couple from American Gothic painting by Grant Wood. And nothing and nobody is ever gonna get that image out of my head - and I read that book in the 80s when I was in my 20s.

[@LynTheWitch]

Hi, what do you think about that : Daniel and Marty are responsible for never hearing again from the people that participated to the scattering, odrade points a few time in the books that she is surprised that they did not hear of even ONE person after all this time. Dan and Marty see them, take them and do their thing (of course i imply the recent scattering not the one that followed close the death of baby Léto ;). Another thing : They maybe sent the honored matres (sorry i read it in french dunno of specific vocabulary so well) on purpose by pushing them via the futars. A big fishing party, where they push people to flee towards them and take them. Maybe it's even their own way to create an evolutionary pressure to genetically select the survivors ? Cause if they have a net and already caught people it makes me think they know what theyre doing and could be more than capable of planning a little Hunting/fishing party. Thanks a lot for this vid that helped me see a little clearer to that book end xD

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Your specific vocabulary is perfect.

[@CallardAndBowser]

Daniel And Marty, they used to be a popular Face Dancer Comedy Duo back in the old days working most of the night clubs on Geidi Prime. But the Baron Harkonnen got word that they were doing vulgar impressions of him so they took off and headed to Kytan for awhile. After that they disappeared. Who knows what they're up to now a days?

[@vortmax1981]

I love that you laid out all the evidence that they're some kind of evolved Face Dancers, then right at the end threw in how Brian & KJA shit all over that in favor of Lord Cybertrex 9000.

[@greenaum]

Just don't read 'em. I'm not going to. They sound abominable. What's great about Dune was Frank's imagination, the things he knew, and his interests. His weenie of a son and his endless pile of "notes", Frank apparently leaving enough notes to write 3x more books than he ever did alive, doesn't add up to anything. Writing talent isn't genetic. Jr hasn't lived Frank's life. So you may as well read anyone else's fanfic on Dune. And not let the lazy little bastard get away without having to work for a living. If you want mediocre scifi there's hardly a shortage of it. Most people don't have enough time to read the actually good scifi that exists, so concentrate on that. Bunch of silly robots, oh and in 10,000 years it turns into Dune apparently. Yeah, so does Star Wars, why not? Watch Star Wars, and get someone to tell you it's all in 50,000 BG, which would after all be a long time ago.

[@JohnTandy74]

It's a real shame that they were overlooked I saw them as a representation of ominous after reading hunters!! The kept at the no ship for the amazing people onboard but there was never any clue a kwizats haderach was there searches goal? I remember being as confused as hell anyway and am definitely going to revisit.. I just remember feelings of loss, sadness and claustrophobia. Fish speaker/honoured matte story stills freaks me out they are ruthless!! Long live the fighters

[@frankcowan6625]

I like the face dancer theory better than old machines