DUNE

[@danielguy3581]

The word is 'Jihad' because the Fremen are Zensunni - that is, Sunni Islam, with what we can assume are Buddhist Zen influences. Their language, as shown by many examples, is Arabic, or a dialect thereof. The story explores and references the central themes of Jewish mythology, the hero's journey, with the desert as a site of a spiritual awakening and expanded consciousness. Moreover, the references are not only to culture and history - there is a direct analogy to then contemporary geopolitical situation of oil, OPEC, etc. A different word would have been misplaced.

[@PlotsAndPoints]

Question about your point about the use of the word Jihad. You say it's wrapped up in a lot of history etc. but would you have had the same reaction if he'd used the word crusade instead given it's similar context? I'm just wondering if the aversion to the word is more a reaction people are having based on modern history and political issues that it's not fair to dunk on Herbert for because how could he know? For the most part I felt like he did his due diligence in taking inspirations from Islam and other cultures and religions to make his future societies without being disrespectful to the existing cultures he's borrowing from, it's not like the Fremen are painted as blood thirsty maniacs devoid of any reason or agency

[@readbykyle3082]

I'm not necessarily against the usage of the word Jihad, but Jihad and crusades are not comparable words. Jihad is *literally* a holy war. Crusade is a word that got used to describe a series of holy wars. It's not the same thing.

[@alb0zfinest]

@@readbykyle3082 Jihad has many meanings than just fighting the so called enemies of Islam. Jihad in its essence means struggle, so it can be a personal struggle (fight against yourself to not sin), political (community reserves) or purely religious (against the enemies of Islam).

[@lexer_]

I very much agree. The same argument could've been made for any other known term as well like "holy war". I guess you could argue about which of the bad options he should've chosen but isn't the negative connotation that is referenced here in the mind of the reader? If you see a negative implication of Islam there, isn't that you?

[@HeII0-_-w0rlld]

@@readbykyle3082 jihad doesn’t literally mean holy war, where did you learn that? It literally means to struggle in Arabic and is used in every day life when talking about any kind of struggle.

[@LienesLibrary]

I never said anything about an aversion, or a negative reaction to the word Jihad. what I said was that, unlike a lot of the words and names in Dune that are invented by the author, he very deliberately chose to use a real word, one that comes pre-loaded with historical and cultural significance. that is a choice he made, and I think it's worth asking: why?

[@gazuki1352]

Imagine reviewing Lord of the Rings, by only reading Fellowship of the Ring.

[@LienesLibrary]

I have a review of Fellowship of the Ring on my channel so....

[@LiteratureScienceAlliance]

10/10 Really enjoyed the format of this 😂

[@LienesLibrary]

hahaha I just couldn't resist

[@Severian1]

Respectfully disagree on the criticism of the female characters that Herbert endorses the idea that they should be blamed for bearing daughters. In this book it's not a female thing, but a Bene Gesserit thing. In the Water of Life scene, Jessica is able to break down poison into components that are harmless to her body. Obviously this is something that isn't possible for us but the Bene Gesserit can do that through years of training. Just a part of this world. Herbert doesn't tell you how, but you can infer that through intense self control of their entire bodies they are able pick apart any agent that enters their bodies. If they can do that to poison, they can do that to sperm cells, ensuring that only XX chromosomes fertilize. Herbert is spare with details on a lot of things but gives you enough to infer things. He won't tell you exactly how prescience works for example but will tell you that they look through genetic memories to map out patterns in the future. It's why the Bene Gesserit need a male, because males have XY chromosomes and so can see across both paths but females only have XX and can only see along one path, all other things being equal. Herbert doesn't tell you any of this but you can infer. Also on the structure. He tells the reader the Baron's plan to create tension not through mystery but through a ticking time-bomb. Admittedly it does not work well for a lot of people but I think that was the idea. A conversation becomes much more intensive when the audience knows there's a bomb beneath the floor. We're meant to see the plan ahead of it's execution, so as to dread its coming.

[@LienesLibrary]

respectfully, I must correct you - I did not say Herbert endorses the idea that females should be blamed for bearing daughters. what I said was that choosing to write the story the way he did was, at the very least, interesting given the real world history of that very question.

[@Severian1]

@@LienesLibrary But by correlating the two together, when the text in no way even echoes that question, and then asking why, you're implying that he endorses it. Even the character that chides Jessica for bearing a daughter is a woman (Reverend Mother Mohiam) and that was not because of this historical problem under discussion here but because what Jessica did disrupted their centuries old eugenics program.

[@LienesLibrary]

@@Severian1 what I’m suggesting is that this was not something Herbert was concerned with or about, but perhaps he should have been

[@Avzigoyhbasilsikos]

@@LienesLibrary he has no reason to be concerned over this since no one made that connection but you. A bennegesserit having control over the sex of her offspring has nothing to do with women being blamed for the birthing females, this just shows the extent of the control the benegeserit have over their body. I’d say Frank Herbert’s world has way more competent women rather than men.

[@troffle]

> look through genetic memories to map out patterns in the future. It's why the Bene Gesserit need a male, because males have XY chromosomes and so can see across both paths but females only have XX and can only see along one path, all other things being equal. Herbert doesn't tell you any of this but you can infer. Herbert says every single bit of it very explicitly. The Bene Gesserit can directly absorb the memories of the entire chain of their FEMALE predecessors; what makes them capable of understanding, working with and continuing the projects and needs born in the past, because they can in effect BE one of their predecessors (without the crisis of being possessed and controlled by one). Paul is able to access both, as is his second son Leto II. But they don't do any mapping of the future with it, they do a DIRECT SEEING OF THE FUTURE. What allows Paul and Leto II to do so is the combination of Atreides genes and the Spice, the proper combination that the Guild Navigators only barely have and use to see the specific future that guides their ships safely to their destinations; like Endgame's Dr Strange seeing the one successful future among 16 million failures. “I’ll handle this, Jessica,” the old woman said. “Now, lad, do you know about the Truthsayer drug?” “You take it to improve your ability to detect falsehood,” he said. “My mother’s told me.” “Have you ever seen truthtrance?” He shook his head. “No.” “The drug’s dangerous,” she said, “but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer’s gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory-in her body’s memory. We look down so many avenues of the past ... but only feminine avenues.” Her voice took on a note of sadness. “Yet, there’s a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot-into both feminine and masculine pasts.” “Your Kwisatz Haderach?” “Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men have tried the drug ... so many, but none has succeeded.” “They tried and failed, all of them?” “Oh, no.” She shook her head. “They tried and died.” ... “Time compels me,” the Reverend Mother said within the awareness. “I have much to give you. And I do not know if your daughter can accept all this while remaining sane. But it must be: the needs of the tribe are paramount.” “What-” “Remain silent and accept!” Experiences began to unroll before Jessica. It was like a lecture strip in a subliminal training projector at the Bene Gesserit school... but faster... blindingly faster. Yet... distinct. She knew each experience as it happened: there was a lover - virile, bearded, with the Fremen eyes, and Jessica saw his strength and tenderness, all of him in one blink-moment, through the Reverend Mother’s memory. There was no time now to think of what this might be doing to the daughter fetus, only time to accept and record. The experiences poured in on Jessica-birth, life, death-important matters and unimportant, an outpouring of single-view time. Why should a fall of sand from a clifftop stick in the memory? she asked herself. Too late, Jessica saw what was happening: the old woman was dying and, in dying, pouring her experiences into Jessica’s awareness as water is poured into a cup. The other mote faded back into pre-birth awareness as Jessica watched it. And, dying-in-conception, the old Reverend Mother left her life in Jessica’s memory with one last sighing blur of words. “I’ve been a long time waiting for you,” she said. “Here is my life.” There it was, encapsuled, all of it. Even the moment of death. I am now a Reverend Mother, Jessica realized. ... And she realized they came from another memory, the life that had been given to her and now was part of herself. Something about that gift felt incomplete, though. “Let them have their orgy, ” the other-memory said within her. “They’ve little enough pleasure out of living. Yes, and you and I need this little time to become acquainted before I recede and pour out through your memories. Already, I feel myself being tied to bits of you. Ah-h-h, you’ve a mind filled with interesting things. So many things I’d never imagined.” And the memory-mind encapsulated within her opened itself to Jessica, permitting a view down a wide corridor to other Reverend Mothers until there seemed no end to them. Jessica recoiled, fearing she would become lost in an ocean of oneness. Still, the corridor remained, revealing to Jessica that the Fremen culture was far older than she had suspected. ... Appendix III. Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes [...] The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled “Kwisatz Haderach,” a term signifying “one who can be many places at once.” In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions. They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled “Kwisatz Haderach,” a term signifying “one who can be many places at once.” In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions. They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. [...] 1. As a youth, Paul Atreides showed ability to predict the future. He was known to have had prescient visions that were accurate, penetrating, and defied four-dimensional explanation. [...] 5. When the Arrakis Affair boiled up, the Spacing Guild made overtures to the Bene Gesserit. The Guild hinted that its navigators, who use the spice drug of Arrakis to produce the limited prescience necessary for guiding spaceships through the void, were “bothered about the future” or saw “problems on the horizon.” This could only mean they saw a nexus, a meeting place of countless delicate decisions, beyond which the path was hidden from the prescient eye. This was a clear indication that some agency was interfering with higher order dimensions! (A few of the Bene Gesserit had long been aware that the Guild could not interfere directly with the vital spice source because Guild navigators already were dealing in their own inept way with higher order dimensions, at least to the point where they recognized that the slightest misstep they made on Arrakis could be catastrophic. It was a known fact that Guild navigators could predict no way to take control of the spice without producing just such a nexus. The obvious conclusion was that someone of higher order powers was taking control of the spice source, yet the Bene Gesserit missed this point entirely!) [...] In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware! @LienesLibrary well, there's some mystery for you right there... I'd put the smilie in there except I think KZbin destroys comments with emoji at the end...?

[@SteveCadman]

Such a great review! Loved the format and more importantly the content. Totally agree with everything you said. Well done!

[@alexnieves]

Your commitment to using your internal monologue while dunking on my favorite sci-fi novel is admirable. You can't hear my inner thoughts right now, but it's telling me that you're a monster. 😠

[@osoisko1933]

😆

[@LienesLibrary]

maybe you can use the voice on me and get me to read it smarter

[@bethloubet4650]

Thoughtful, intelligent, creative. Well done! I DNFed Dune 25 years ago. Going to try again next month, but the issues you mention were my problems before.

[@LienesLibrary]

haha maybe just see the movie instead (sacrilege I know)

[@remedysvulgar9592]

Imagine having the whole book go over your head lol rip

[@LienesLibrary]

Imagine commenting on someone's video just to insult them lol rip

[@remedysvulgar9592]

@@LienesLibrary yea ok whatever makes u feel better lol weirdo

[@thJune-ze7dn]

Great review! I have something of a *hot take* with regards to stuff like the world-building in Dune (and other sci-fi/fantasy books in general). When it comes to telling a good story, setting is irrelevant, and it won't matter how dense or detailed your imaginary world is if you haven't got compelling characters or narrative to back it up. You could get together lots of costumes and props, build a set, arrange all the furniture you want, get your lighting perfect etc. and guess what - you still don't have a play. Then again, you can perform Hamlet in an empty room, with the characters all dressed in nondescript black, and you still have an amazing play. The story and characters are what carries it, no matter the setting. I tried to read Dune a couple of times when I was a kid but I never managed to make it more than halfway through, and I'm guessing it was because of this. I've always felt that making a really intricate world is something that an author does to please themselves rather than give the reader compelling themes, plot, characters etc... I will definitely try with Dune again (I WILL finish it one day) but I personally think a classic has to have more than a very creative setting. I will see if I was just too young for it at the time and if the characters really grab me this time.

[@LienesLibrary]

I would tend to agree with that, but I am a confessed character-driven reader. there are a lot of people who love to read for the world building itself, and if that is what you're looking for, Dune certainly delivers

[@h.godftw6498]

FIRST OF ALL…!!!! I told you! 😉 Though you said you’d most likely not love the book on your second reading, I still take credit for saying this to the screen while watching the previous vid where you declared your intention to do so! 🤣 (obelus: passage dedicated me; making everything about me since the year of our lord, 19-redacted) Secondly, as a lover of this book and it’s sequels (the first five, not the sequels and prequels produced by his son) this review slash ‘surgical take-down’ has to be the best playful dissection of the classic work I’ve seen in years! So… touché’! ☺️ Dune is a dense monster from a complicated era of sci fi contemporaries, not to mention history. But i believe you’re right in observing that this does not exonerated what our contemporary eyes view as problematic themes and depictions. My love for other much better displayed science fiction tropes and vistas in the work allowed me to mostly ignore these glaring points of cultural ignorance from the author… but they’re there… you can’t put a leash on a horse and swear it’s a dog… 🤷🏾‍♂️ it is what it is. Great review as usual.

[@LienesLibrary]

hahaha you did indeed 😂 glad you could enjoy, despite being a fan - that's not at all common in my experience where this book is under discussion. I'm pleased you received it in the spirit it was intended 😋

[@Nastya-uj9bg]

omg this was so good!

[@Bibliofilth]

haha, the format of this review was fantastic

[@LienesLibrary]

hahaha channeling my inner Lynch

[@bluelionz]

The Fremen are based on Arabs. He does not use only the word Jihad for his/their holy war. Throughout the books he uses many arab words like burqa and allahu akbar. Artreides are based on greeks. I find the books really feminist. The fact that Jessica was forced to have a girl (which she refused), in because they planned their male baby (Muad'dib) for the following generation. In the books, the most strong characters from a moral perspective are women: Jessica and Chani. Maybe Ghanima also. Plus, Herbert states that women "discovered/invented" religion, which made them rules of tribes. And males sensing that they lose power, took religion out of their hands. this changes society from a matriarchy to a patriarchy. Also, in book 4 says that a woman invented speceships, but her lover stole her idea.

[@rabbitmaze]

lmao i saw the thumbnail and was immediately like...."uh ohhhh". Especially when the preview started playing, haha. Love the look on your face. Truly priceless. Great review.

[@LienesLibrary]

hahaha glad you enjoyed

[@Avzigoyhbasilsikos]

Your takes on the benegeserit being able to alter the sex of their offsprings being connected to some sort of medieval nonsense is a weak take, it’s in line with the benegeserit having control over their physical and metal abilities it’s just another attribute, they can Control their body and mind at a molecular level. Dune isn’t a perfect novel but it’s a top 5 sci-fi novel imo. There’s a reason a dense and philosophical book like dune is the best selling sci-fi book, it’s not just a classic, dune is the fountain where many sci-fi ideas stem from, it’s like lord of the rings in many ways. I’d love it if you invited a dune channel to discuss the points with you since I think you’ve misunderstood the Intentions of the author in certain places.

[@billyalarie929]

this was such a creative way to do this review lmao

[@LienesLibrary]

hehe I thought it might "spice" things up 😛

[@nasteho6614]

2:10 I am curious to know if you think people are more likely- especially in terms of these days- to view the story’s use of the word in the mainstream muddied and muddled form? Arabic isn’t my primary language but I know of it and the choice of jihad clicked for me especially in the second novel seeing how utterly Paul failed at his greater jihad. Tbh tho, it was jarring hearing all those terms and trying to figure how literally to take them. I really hope people look into the complex meaning of the word jihad, personally I thought it fitted well. Totally agree with you on the Vladmir Harkonnen I got Jubba the Hut vibes. And I got so annoyed with Lady J choosing a boy cuz they needed a boy heir, King Henry’s dead wives are turning in their graves at this atrocity 💀 I would have rather she chose a boy preferably because she wanted one or to get back at the Ben Gesserits 🤦🏾‍♀️. I got bored with it and barely got through the second novel. The themes and ideas were interesting but just wish it could have been executed better. I think the theme of not following a leader blindly is especially pertinent.

[@LienesLibrary]

I never meant to suggest the word Jihad didn't fit what he was writing about, rather just asking why he felt the need to use a real word for that when he was obviously more than willing to make up words for a lot of other things

[@nasteho6614]

@@LienesLibrary yeah I totally get that, weirdly enough it fits so well. It was interesting that there are characters with cool names and then you have Paul and Duncan Idaho 😂. Always wonder why I get tripped up when Scifi/ Fantasy characters have real life sounding names. I think the Butlarian Jihad was my fav, I imagined a bunch of human looking androids dressed like an old school English butlers getting mowed down.

[@troffle]

“So I had a son!” Jessica flared. And she knew she was being goaded into this anger deliberately. “You were told to bear only daughters to the Atreides.” “It meant so much to him,” Jessica pleaded. “And you in your pride thought you could produce the Kwisatz Haderach!” Jessica lifted her chin. “I sensed the possibility.” “You thought only of your Duke’s desire for a son,” the old woman snapped. “And his desires don’t figure in this. An Atreides daughter could’ve been wed to a Harkonnen heir and sealed the breach. You’ve hopelessly complicated matters. We may lose both bloodlines now.” It was not about an heir, it was about Leto's personal wishes. Also because Jessica hoped she could've been the one to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. So it almost WAS that she "wanted one or to get back at the Bene Gesserit". @LienesLibrary... you wrote earlier: "tension is instead deflated by the choice to give the reader an over-abundance of information leaving no question to ask, no motive to ponder. Not only are the deeds of characters known to you, but the thoughts as well. Why create a compelling and suspenseful mystery when you can hand readers the answers before they've even thought to ask a question" What's killing me reading these comments is the reader was given an "over-abundance of information leaving no question to ask" and yet more and more it looks like NONE OF THESE READERS EVEN UNDERSTOOD THE EXPLICIT WORDS ON THE PAGES.

[@angelaholmes8888]

I did like the first dune book but I absolutely enjoyed children of dune I can't wait to read the next book 📚😊

[@maria83maria]

Exellet review!

[@dant7677]

Regarding the business about what Bene Gesserit can control about their bodily processes, this strikes me as being of a piece with other sci-fi of that era. See: Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. I don't mean this reference to be out-and-out justification of the problematic aspects you point out, but I do think it serves to explain how the story and setting could end up the way it is.

[@LienesLibrary]

oh no doubt this book - any book for that matter - is a product of the time it's written and of the influences acting upon the author when writing it

[@SpartnMarine823]

Your omniscient perspective was so funny!!

[@LienesLibrary]

hehe glad you liked it

[@Irishdazza]

I never thought the bene Gesserit manipulated the embryo to ensure gender. I thought the aborted to get what the wanted. Did I miss something?

[@ScentOfATome]

I thought that too!

[@LienesLibrary]

I've never heard that interpretation and that hasn't been a counterargument i've heard from fans I've brought this up with, but that's certainly a possibility as the text is ambiguous on this point

[@Irishdazza]

@@LienesLibrary I guess we all read between the lines as we have been programmed to. I grew up in a different time from you and am bound to have different preconceived notions than you. I guess the trick is to realise that we have preconceived notions and tendancies and mitigate accordingly. But isn't that the beauty of books. No two people read the same one.

[@Garuda989]

Love your review. Thank you. And keep it up.

[@MistahKurtz1979]

I felt pretty much the same as you did. I have that gene that makes cilantro taste like soap and I think Dune might have a similar reaction for people. I think everyone can mostly appreciate it’s originality, but it seems you either love it or it’s not your cup of tea.

[@LienesLibrary]

I have that gene too! I always wonder if I'd like cilantro if I could actually taste it....

[@readbykyle3082]

This review is hilarious. The Dune fans get so up in arms when someone doesn't love their baby. I'm glad you stood up to tyranny. I agree with your thoughts on it; definitely understand why it's a classic but has a lot of problems!

[@ColeDedhand]

Stood up to tyranny? How weak must you be if you consider people disagreeing with you on the internet "tyranny"...

[@readbykyle3082]

@@ColeDedhand well all I can tell you my friend is...look up what a "joke" is. 😬

[@LienesLibrary]

hehe glad you liked it - I thought maybe including a bunch of Herbert's own words might soothe the savage beast that is the Dune fandom but I didn't have a great deal of hope on that score, if I'm being honest

[@lucagiovanetti9870]

Your comments are outdated! This is the type of criticism Dune received decades ago! The saga has been completely re-evaluated by experts and readers!Your comments are flat out wrong and you clearly didn't understand the deep meaning of dune. I hope the true dune fans will responde to your silly and disrespectful rant!

[@LienesLibrary]

I'm sure "true dune fans" have better things to do than watch my video, but if you think they should see it, by all means feel free to recommend it

[@troffle]

​@@LienesLibrary I was a Dune fan decades before I knew you existed. I was a fan of your videos for months before I realised you had a Dune video. You don't think a "true Dune fan" WHATEVER THAT IS would hear your interpretations and want to have a discussion on points for consideration or perspectives that might have been missed?

[@osoisko1933]

The format of this was great. It's a very interesting point you bring up about women being blamed for giving birth to the wrong gender 🤔 My initial reaction would be this being empowering; the ultimate body autonomy. But like you said, it's a point to consider. In defense of how they achieve it, I think this goes to the idea of psychic abilities and supernatural levels of body control, altered mental states, etc was considered legitimate in even hardish Scifi until relatively recently.

[@LienesLibrary]

I don't think it was necessarily an outright bad thing, but it is a thing that - given historical and real world context - is a choice on the part of the author that bears some examination

[@ChloeFrizzle]

I agree so hard with this review. Dune is over hyped, and not that fun to read. Your little asides were so funny because it was so accurate to the experience of reading the book.

[@LienesLibrary]

it was more a nod to the Lynch film but then again, he made the movie that way for a reason 😂

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

As much as I love Dune, you have some valid points and it's certainly not a perfect book. I hadn't thought about the pregnancy thing but you aren't wrong. The litany for fear here made me laugh!

[@LienesLibrary]

was I dramatic enough? 😛

[@37mam09]

Dune is my all time favorite read, but yeah I've to admit that most of your points are well said and may be valid.

[@LienesLibrary]

thank you for saying! it's honestly so rare to find a fan who doesn't rage at criticism, so I very much appreciate it 🧡

[@timtas1968]

I'm not really a big Dune fan; for me, it is too long, and I don't care much about aristocracy. But your criticism of the "queer" cliche of Harkinen is really cheap; I didn't even remember that he was gay, just that he was bad. Is it then nowadays so that all villains categorically have to be white heterosexual males, because otherwise the author is either homophobic, sexist or racist? Quite a strange requirement, if you ask a white heterosexual male.

[@bentheoverlord]

Bloody good review ! I enjoyed Dune but that was in spite of the issues I had. I also do however wish more female characters were fleshed out, Jessica is the only woman who actually has any depth, and even then I wish I had more. I will say as a gay man I read Harkonnen more as a predator of children than a gay man, but I do wish we had a positive LGBT characters to balance this. The third part is also quite weirdly paced it covers so much in such a page span, making it feel rushed.

[@LienesLibrary]

yeah, Harkonnen is just....yikes haha and I definitely agree the third part is weirdly paced, it's like we suddenly hit the fast forward button

[@ColeDedhand]

"Problematic aspects" according to the current victim-worship mentality. You didn't read the book. You scoured it for trigger words so you could feel the endorphin rush of "righteous" indignation. This review says much more about you than it does about Herbert. But that was your intent, so mission accomplished.

[@readbykyle3082]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@bridgit2541]

🙄

[@mintleafbluesey]

god you absolute moron did you even watch her review

[@LienesLibrary]

giving a book three stars and saying it's deservedly regarded as a classic and should be read and discussed for years to come.....does not strike me as "righteous indignation" but perhaps there's another definition for that expression that I'm unfamiliar with

[@derrisreaditbefore]

The way you've included an 'inner monologue' here is genius. Well done! I chose many years ago not to read Dune, because of the thoughts of friends who HAD read it. So I'm really pleased to hear those, and other issues being discussed now. The overwhelming positive mind-set at the moment around the novel has been driving me batty. THANK YOU for showing a little more discernment!

[@LienesLibrary]

say one thing for me, say I bring up the negatives haha - I do think the new movie will have a positive influence on the discourse surrounding Dune as more people with fresh perspectives will be picking it up and adding their voices to the discussion

[@eriklonnrot3578]

Lol, this is great! 😂 A reprise, but I think this time everyone is reading or re-reading Dune, so you won’t be alone. A lot of other people reading it for the first time also don’t love it. And with the release of the film, Dune Heads are probably swimming in content and too distracted to focus on you. re:the Bene Gesserit ... you forgot the eugenics.😬 It's training and eugenics, but the eugenics part is important. After all, the Bene Gesserit are products of eugenics. The Spacing Guild are products of eugenics. The Sardaukar are eugenics. The Mentats are eugenics. Paul is eugenics. It's all eugenics.😫

[@LienesLibrary]

yeah, the eugenics is pretty yikes, but I was trying to keeping things, ya know.....light? 😂

[@troffle]

Begging pardon, but although eugenics is critical, the width you ascribe to this is terrifyingly wrong. In the sequels, eugenics is made exceptionally less important, because we meet the Bene Tleilax who do things with cloning and genetic engineering. In fact, they're the ones who demolish the Spice Monopoly by GROWING IT in their own tanks. They're the ones who make clones (and super-meta-clones) of Duncan, meaning that in the end, Duncan ends up being over four thousand years old. The Bene Gesserit were the products of TRAINING and eugenics. The product of the Bene Gesserit was eugenics as a very tiny part of their real scope, Politics. The program of breeding Paul (Paul's child actually) was only meant to be a means to an end - the Bene Gesserit were supposed to own the Kwisatz Haderach for their own purposes as their tool. The Spacing Guild like the Mentats are explicitly referred to as mental-physical training schools and NOT eugenics. The difference between other members of the Guild and the Navigators is them being completely and utterly saturated in Spice; the basis of the Guild's monopoly is that they have vague, partial abilities like Paul's, only when they're soaked in the stuff. Which is why they were so terrified at the threat of the Spice being lost. The Sardaukar are absolutely not a product of eugenics, but of training. It's also made explicitly clear when they say the reason the Fremen are a match for the Sardaukar is because they're both forced to survive, are both products of absolute hellholes; desert Arrakis, or the prison planet Salusa Secundus. Fenring on behalf of the Emperor freaks out when the Baron describes Salusa Secundus as an inspiration for a prison planet. It's the reason the Emperor reacts to Paul's threat of turning Salusa Secundus into "a garden world, full of gentle things". And Paul saying : “There will be flowing water here open to the sky and green oases rich with good things. But we have the spice to think of, too. Thus, there will always be desert on Arrakis ... and fierce winds, and trials to toughen a man. We Fremen have a saying: ‘God created Arrakis to train the faithful.’ One cannot go against the word of God.” The Mentats are a product of TRAINING not of eugenics. And ignore the David Lynch movie with the idea of chemicals being involved. Nobody in Leto's or Jessica's parentage (the Baron or Gaius Helen Mohiam) were mentats or of a Mentat line. And as Paul says himself in discussion with Leto: “Your mother wanted me to be the one to tell you, Son. You see, you may have Mentat capabilities.” Paul stared at his father, unable to speak for a moment, then: “A Mentat? Me? But I....” “Hawat agrees, Son. It’s true.” “But I thought Mentat training had to start during infancy and the subject couldn’t be told because it might inhibit the early....” He broke off, all his past circumstances coming to focus in one flashing computation. “I see,” he said. “A day comes,” the Duke said, “when the potential Mentat must learn what’s being done. It may no longer be done to him. The Mentat has to share in the choice of whether to continue or abandon the training. Some can continue; some are incapable of it. Only the potential Mentat can tell this for sure about himself.” Paul rubbed his chin. All the special training from Hawat and his mother - the mnemonics, the focusing of awareness, the muscle control and sharpening of sensitivities, the study of languages and nuances of voices - all of it clicked into a new kind of understanding in his mind. “You’ll be the Duke someday, Son,” his father said. “A Mentat Duke would be formidable indeed. Can you decide now ... or do you need more time?” ... with respect, I'm lost trying to understand how y'all missed any of these EXPLICITLY WRITTEN THINGS reading the book...!

[@JordansShelves]

As someone who hasn’t read or watched Dune, I really appreciate this discussion. It’s shocking how few reviews touch on these issues at all. Great review.

[@LienesLibrary]

glad you found it useful!

[@troffle]

There's a strong argument to be made that these discussions are way off base, due to either misunderstandings due to modern society, or some points of the book being lost due to the much-more opaque format of the book. I would beg you to consider, when reading or reviewing the book for yourself, that this discussion is only one perspective, please.

[@TheBookishMom]

I DNFed it at 150 pages... I could not... just could not get into it... I do kinda want to see the movie just to see how they handle it.

[@LienesLibrary]

the movie was SO good definitely recommend

[@TheBookishMom]

@@LienesLibrary im definitely excited to see the movie, I think the hubs and I may watch it this weekend.

[@LienesLibrary]

@@TheBookishMom hardcore recommend seeing it in IMAX if you can

[@TheBookishMom]

@@LienesLibrary I was thinking at home but imax sounds much more fun

[@LienesLibrary]

@@TheBookishMom plus…popcorn 😁

[@johnsaxongitno4life588]

All I can say is that I agree with you 100 percent and I love your voice over in your video please stay safe and enjoy your reading 📖

[@LienesLibrary]

thanks 🧡

[@johnsaxongitno4life588]

@@LienesLibrary no worries 😉

[@ArcanaZeroTheFool]

With you 100%.

[@LienesLibrary]

haha thanks

[@dmuse3813]

Good assessment. (I liked your rather David Lynch-ish internal monologue moments. Hehehe.) Agreed - we cannot card stack all the great points of a work and purposely ignore the flaws or pretend they don’t exist. Solid criticism demands scrutiny of the positives as well as the negatives. Classic works are NOT Exempt from the scrutiny. As much as I love Dune and encourage others to read it, I accept that it isn’t perfect; and it may have flaws in other readers’ eyes that I didn’t necessarily see or that I thought were overshadowed by its more compelling parts.

[@LienesLibrary]

re the internal monologue, I just couldn't resist hehe. and regarding the criticism, I don't think acknowledging criticism or recognizing flaws necessarily takes anything away from the love someone has for art. I'll quote Rothfuss for the 10,000th time: "to love something despite, to know the flaws and love them too, that is rare and pure and perfect."