Dungeon Universalis - Too Much of a Good Thing? | A Stick to the Script Review | Sponsored Video

Always Board Never Boring recently received a review copy of Dungeon Universalis, the epic, sprawling tool box game system for people who want to create endless fantasy adventures. Want to play solo? You got it. Want to play co-op? You got it. Want to run a roleplaying adventure game? Fine. But with all these options, and all these rules... so many rules... is it all just too much of a good thing? Let's find out...
This review is only possibly thanks to the good people at Ludic Dragon Games who sent a copy for review. You can find out more about Ludic Dragon games on their official website:
ludicdragon.com/
#DungeonUniversalis #LudicDragonGames #review
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[@crushingit5128]

Love how you were honest and didn't avoid the shortcomings and complications. Most reviewers are acquaintances with the developer and soften their negative feedback.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. I have to be honest when I do these videos. I wish I liked this game more than I did, but it just wasn't for me.

[@anonymouse8953]

Indeed it is tough to get inside this game - but - if you find your way to play it - wow this is great!

[@NeilY1000]

The game is fantastic :) I have it setup on a table behind me right now. The rules are hard, but to be honest it doesn't really matter if you get everything perfect as long as the core works and it makes you happy. II adore DUN, its a game I will play for many years and will happily dip in and out of in bursts. One thing you didn't mention is the webapp which supports the game (not mandatory) which saves a lot of upkeep. I'd recommend DUN if you are a big fan of D&D and Hero Quest and want to play something that is a hybrid of both. If you want to get as near to solo D&D then this is for you. But great review non the less :D edit: I Meant Warhammer quest not Heroquest!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Glad to hear you're really enjoying it; I know there's going to be a lot of people who really love this game. I definitely think "solo D&D" is something that it can swing at. I think the only thing I wouldn't do is recommend this to someone who loves HeroQuest. In my experience people love HeroQuest for it's smooth and straightforward gameplay with simple, easy to remember rules. I feel DUN is too far removed from that. Incidentally, I love D&D and HeroQuest, but while I could see the wonderful potential of DUN I felt it wasn't for me. I don't really like peanut butter in my chocolate either! Thanks for watching.

[@NeilY1000]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I meant to say Warhammer Quest ...doh got my quests in a twist :P

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

That makes so much more sense!

[@johnmiddleton4291]

There are tons of resources for just soloing D&D already. Even ways to play published adventures solo.

[@adamarmstrong5314]

True words from a lover of the hobby :) If your session is memorable and you share stories of your game for months to come, who cares if you flub some rules details in the moment? I'm trying to get started with DUN, i've got to remember that perfect execution of the rules isn't the most important part of playing a game.

[@williamegan6756]

This is quite possibly the greatest dungeon crawler ever made. Definitely not for the casual fan (HeroQuest, Massive Darkness, Zombicide). But if you love depth and immersiveness, this truly is D&D in a Box. It is the ultimate dungeon crawler.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Glad to hear you enjoy it.

[@polfig7558]

What I call the Excel approach to rules.

[@DustyLamp]

@@polfig7558 They're actually really simple rules, very logical in implementation. There's just a lot of them.

[@phildevey6302]

All the tiles, cards and standees look great - really beautifully done. From your description it also seems to be a game you really have to fully embrace to get the most out of it, sometimes called a lifestyle game. I can imagine that you have to play it a lot, get used to the rules and all the fiddly bits, try the different characters and monsters, try the different ways of playing it. Explore all of it. I love dungeon crawls, they are my favourite type of game, but I've gone all in on Warhammer Quest (1995) and Shadows of Brimstone already, and I don't think I can do it again with such a massive game. It does look like a tremendous game though.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

You're absolutely right (I do refer to it by the term "lifestyle game" in the review). It's beautifully presented, packed with content, and quite clearly a work of passion. But indeed, to get the most out of it you have to be prepared to put a lot into it. More than I can personally commit to, really.

[@craftsmenMC]

“You could play it as a roleplaying game” You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention

[@jantuijp]

@CraftsmenMC: I would even say a modest amount of roleplaying can't be avoided, even if you want to. As you're gathering skills and upgrading your equipment, your characters will grow personalities.

[@elaineabreu282]

That's it, I'm packing my bags and moving in!!!

[@hlorridirudel9627]

And that is why DUN is a Gem!! Rough,edgy, rewarding and nearly infinite. Fortunately not for everyone!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Nothing is. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

[@hlorridirudel9627]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Good Video!

[@Vlad65WFPReviews]

A tremendous and honest review and it confirms my "fears" about the effort required to "enjoy" this game. It is very interesting that you mentioned Warhammer Quest, a wonderful game that is hobbled by a shallow tactical depth - rooms are generally too small for much tactical movement AND monsters usually appear immediately adjacent to heroes. This combines to make WQ less successful as a tactical skirmish than it could have been (though it is still fun and relatively easy to play). Then you eloquently underline how DU goes extremely in the opposite direction - almost as if the designers insisted on a game that takes almost religious devotion to learn and play. And most of us won't be that devoted - if someone designs "Dungeon Universalis for Dummies" I'll be very interested.

[@NeilY1000]

There is a 4 page rules summary on BGG in the files section. Its pretty much the dummies guide. But its definitely still a game for the 'enthusiast'

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

They really wanted to make this rules set as complete and detailed as possible. I admire what it's achieved, but ultimately it's not really for me. Thanks for watching.

[@Vlad65WFPReviews]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring This reminds me of the tabletop wargaming period a few decades ago when "extreme realism" were the watch words. This creatied cumbersome rules burdened by "wind direction" detail that resulted in slow games which were ultimately rejected. Instead we have the "elegant rules" movement in which any such needed detail is simplified or implied to be included - and meanwhile every new rule set is promoted as "fast to play" and/or "easy to learn". As it is pretty clear that DU will never be a successful game for the mass market (it's sticker price won't help either) - it will be interesting if a more accessible and stripped down version eventually sees its day on Kickstarter.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm not sure really. I think Oscar had a very clear idea of what he wanted to do, and I think that's what he's done. As I understand it, the plans now are another Kickstarter for a third print run, and expansion content. (I'm not even sure what they can expand at this point!)

[@Vlad65WFPReviews]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Funny. I was anticipating a smaller version without all the stand-up characters for the many of us with considerable minis collections already. Instead it's bigger still. Thanks for the update.

[@bradp6452]

Definitely seems very involved. My gaming motivation is so low right now that anything complicated is not getting to the table. Actually meeting up with a friend this week for Blackstone Fortress so watched one of your old videos on that to see how it worked since I do not have it.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It really has a lot going on. Lots of things to take in and remember. Blackstone Fortress is a much simpler game. There are a few little rules that might get overlooked sometimes, but I never really had any issues. I hope you have fun with it.

[@Biodelic]

If something like this would exist in a solid sci-fi setting, I would probably fully emerge myself into it,. Ake it a lifestyle.

[@TheFatalT]

I’m overwhelmed just watching this review! It looks cool, but definitely too much for me. Been playing a bunch of Heroquest and Dungeon with the kids and I’m really enjoying the simpler rulesets.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I've been playing a lot of HeroQuest recently. Just introduced it to my gaming group and they absolutely loved it (2021 edition). DUN is a very different sort of beast!

[@mrzooeyglass]

Absolutely sold not on this game but on your channel when you mentioned Warhammer Quest from the 90s. The purest example of generosity! Just this week I was telling a friend about how I pored over the roleplay book and all. the. enemy. stats. in that master tome!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. Quest 95 was amazing to me at the time. There was just so much in the box to explore.

[@sethpeterson8261]

I have the all-in of this coming, but no I will probably never play it, and really I don't think I ever do want to play it. I think I just love the idea of playing it. I'm also all-in on League of Dungeoneers, even though it looks like a poor mans Dungeon Universalis. Pretty sure I don't actually want to play it either (and will probably cancel it completely). What I really want is a complete collection of the original Warhammer Quest (I thought the newer ones sucked), but since I can't have it I keep buying into the idea of these instead.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I know what you mean. I love the idea of Dungeon Universalis, and I can see how special it would be for the right person (or group of people) with the time to commit to it. Unlike you, I love the new Quest line of games, but for my hit of classic dungeon crawling, it has to be Advanced Heroquest (which DUN has clearly drawn some influences from). There are so many dungeoncrawlers out these days, people really are spoiled for choice. I'm waiting to hear more about people's thoughts on Bardsung at the moment.

[@johannesrice2735]

Excellent review, that told me exactly what i needed to know about this game, and is very well presented... It surely is a game for a niche audience, but personally, im totally sold by the extreme complexity, and am absolutely willing and able to dive into a new hobby that demands a part in my life, while at the same time, forces me to learn, have patience, think and plan ahead, and this is exactly the impression that the game left for me. Thank you very much, im already looking for an all-in copy of the 2nd print...

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks for watching. Are you in the US? The rewards still haven’t arrived there so you may find a lot of copies popping up on eBay relatively soon.

[@drawking55]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring they announced that US copies should be arriving this month, and another reprint via kickstarter happening later this year

[@lergof0202]

The extremely complicated ruleset and large amounts of rule don't bother me... but what does bother me is if the rules are not well written, don't use good English, contradict each other, or don't make sense.

[@kkit7540]

Hey Always board, am I right in hearing that there was meant to be a 3rd edition of this coming to crowdfunding this year? It looks brilliant but would be great with a jaws of the lion style rule book that gradually introduces more and more with a few scenarios. I would love to see a Sci fi version of something like this too

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

From talking to Oscar, it seems to be a possibility. They are still fulfilling orders at the moment, but there could be a third Kickstarter for another print run after that.

[@LudicDragon]

Hello, yes, there will be a third reprint (there is a lot of demand from players who don't want fast food and are lovers of wargames and RPGs, as well as board games). ;-) But we need the revised edition to be delivered in USA and Canada to announce a new campaign. It is a game made in Europe and massive, so retail is impossible, too much production cost (you have to understand that publishers always demand 65-75% off the price to publish it in their own language and country as retail, so we can't accept licenses).

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm sure your third campaign will be a great success. Best of luck with it.

[@LudicDragon]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Thank you, I hope it goes well! Thank you for your efforts! :)

[@vilgrid6683]

@@LudicDragon Oh please make us a french version 🙏🙏🙏

[@mikolajwitkowski8093]

Very interesting video, great to focus on complexity here. Two a bit unrelated questions. What is your opinion of Shadows of Brimstone? Many say it's the closest to WHQ we have. Second, do you say 5 star hotel or 5 stars Hotel?

[@Perchpole]

Shadows of Brimstone is WHQ. It's the same game with Stetsons instead of helmets.

[@oneanotherstudios]

Good, honest overview. My eyes definitely crave that content but I also know I cannot devote the time this game would require.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you. For those people who can invest time into the system (both internalising the rules and playing through campaigns) the game has a lot to offer, but it really does need that investment.

[@adamarmstrong5314]

I've just unpacked my second printing KS and have been reading the rulebook, and totally agree with you! the rules are deliciously granular and detailed, and that makes them seem... daunting and unweildy? I have a gaming group that has just about finished middara (one of us actively DMs a 5e campaign and I'm into OSR games), and I'm concerned this might actually be a bit thick for us. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this magnificent, daunting beast! Hey, may you tell me where you got those nifty dividers for your DUN cards? i've got mine elastic banded into groups in the packed-in vacuum tray and would love to have them!.. so long as i decide to keep the game, that is.

[@adamarmstrong5314]

oh my god, the dividers are inside of the DM screen. nevermind!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ha. I was going to say, mine were in the box. Glad you found them, and I hope you have fun with the game.

[@crazyvolucris]

Thank you for the great „review“ and i guess its a game more for Roleplayers than for boardgamers… or for very ambitious board gamers… for me as an former roleplayer the game system is just right and i can adjust it to my wishes 🤩 its a great game and i love it 😍

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Well I'm a roleplayer and boardgamer and it just didn't land, so I wouldn't define it that way myself. I think it's just a very deep game that requires a lot of time and commitment and therefore is going to be a good fit for someone looking for a lifestyle or long-campaign game rather than someone who likes to cycle through a lot of different games. Thanks for watching.

[@crazyvolucris]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring yea that’s definitely right… we’ll I guess not a lifetime but a great junk of time/ commitment 👍🏻🤪

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ha. While a "lifestyle game" doesn't mean you spend a lifetime playing that game, you probably could with DUN!

[@michaelmelen9062]

Very well done. Thanks! I had been tempted by this, but I can see I won't have the capability to tackle this game. Back in my youth I played Magic Realm quite a bit, and I think that prior to my two strokes I could have handled the rules. As you point out, it isn't the complexity but the layers of complexity which are daunting.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

There's a lot to absorb, and I think you really have to commit to this game to get the best out of it. It should be an excellent choice for anyone who can do that.

[@UnderTheSkin13]

This is the perfect example of a "board game" that should have been a video game in the first place. It's only numbers and the computers can handle all the rules without confusing anyone.

[@Vlad65WFPReviews]

Absolutely.

[@NeilY1000]

Not really in my opinion. DUN is a system which you can gear to whatever you want it to be. The rules are complex but you can easily cherry pick what helps you. To be honest you could probably play the whole thing using warhammer quest rules :) . It has been designed for the ultra dungeon crawl fan who wants a full ruleset which does mean it can appear a little frightening.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

How much they've packed into this system is an incredible feat, but yes, it's just so much to remember.

[@sgr_nz]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring this would be great topic for a video. What’s the overlap between board game and video game? Faithful renditions like Gloomhaven vs helper/automation apps like Heroquest etc.

[@SamBalducci]

I do not see it being any more complex than most wargames, tabletop skirmish games or RPGs

[@seansanders505]

Great review and funny I enjoyed the comment discussion quite a bit also. I think the thing that stands out to me is Id like to make sure the rules are properly translated into English and spelled out in a good way.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the video and follow up discussion. From what the designer has said, it appears the next Kickstarter for DUN will be a straight reprint and a new expansion, with no changes to the way the rules are written.

[@seansanders505]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring good to know thank you. I think it will start in June so give me some time to decide if I'd like to purchase this. Newish to board gaming but have wanted a good solo rpg/dungeon crawler have also looked at the other one league of dungeoneers.

[@almoghh123]

GREAT review! thank you very much!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you for watching. I'm glad you enjoyed the video.

[@DestroyerHivePro]

Awesome review!! I will be backing League of Dungeoneers next week, which should scratch this same itch (and also give me a fun project for my 3D printer!)

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Dungeoneers is the one that was already available online as a print and play, isn't it? I haven't looked much into the rules so I don't know how it compares in complexity to Dungeon Universalis.

[@NikoTeaJay]

Quite a beast. To have freetime of a teenager... I would've loved this. Still could if I forsook most of my solo games.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

That's definitely the thing - it's a game that's really going to require a solid time investment. More time than I have.

[@konstantineKein]

Nice one, you make me just order the game! :)

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

That’s great. I hope you have a lot of fun with it. Thanks for watching.

[@dalelewis625]

You remember being a young lad trying to understand the advanced heroquest rulebook? This looks like it would have blown our minds! Defo not a game for newbies from the look of it.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

There's so much to unpack and explore. It's a head-spinner for sure.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

DUN has made me mad because now there isn't a reason to buy any more dungeon crawlers.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ha. It really does try to do everything.

[@stormy7722]

If you have played a good RPG, so not D&D, you will be familiar with the depth of skills etc.. This game is def for a niche crowd. It's lifestyle-esque for sure but like League of Dungeoneers its rewarding with its ample CRUNCH!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's a game that takes some effort, but for those people looking for a really detailed, crunchy delver there's a lot to like.

[@Ben_Mdws]

Those rule books…my word.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

They're quite the trip.

[@JoeyJoJoJoestarJuniorShabadoo]

Just seems like too much stuff and rules for crazy people. I can't even understand how the rules in Warhammer work; but I was just reading through the Swords & Wizardry retroclone book and that's something I can wrap my head around. And all you need is some dice and sheets of graph paper.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's catering to a very specific market - those people that really want a densely packed and crunchy rules set. For those people, this game is going to be an absolute joy to unpack and explore.

[@cheesedanishable]

For sure, I think DUN was always a passion project. Barely funded and badly translated in it's initial release. Slightly better with this release. This is a game for hardcore fans, full stop. Anyone else will probably take one look and toss the rulebook book in a fire. For those wanting, expecting and thirsty for a game as deep as games get, this is what we've been waiting for.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Definitely. The passion Oscar has for creating a fully realised fantasy world and a set of rules to explore it is obvious in every element of the game. For the right people, it's a fantastic product.

[@earlofdoncaster5018]

Yeah the rules are about three times longer than they would have been had they been written by a third party writer. And they are rather poorly written and then badly translated. But once you get to grip with the rules you have a game that's Gloomhaven for people who don't like Gloomhaven. It's the genuinely exiting, truly lethal and beautifully random RPG-in-a-box, I have been looking for.

[@eriksjogren800]

Thanks

[@johnmiddleton4291]

That list of modifiers is pretty similar to most any detailed minis game using individual models like 2nd d 40k or Battletech. The entire thing just strikes me as needless given that rpgs can do all of this more fluidly and elegantly. Is there any actual rolepalying in the adventures or is it pretty much a pure dungeon crawl?

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Like I said in the review, it's more like a dungeon crawling skirmish simulation. Something like Battletech might have a lot of shooting modifiers, but it's a fighting game, so you don't also have to then have a layer of rules for exploring a dungeon, and a layer of rules for overland adventures, and a layer of rules for being a DM (or for running an AI DM), and so on. I can't think of another dungeon crawler that has as many modifiers to work out just to shoot at someone. The game has overland travelling, you can sail to areas on the map, visit settlements, buy a house as a base of operations. If you wanted to play it as an RPG then you're pretty much doing it the same way Warhammer Quest 95 did it. You just shift the goal of the DM from adversary to storyteller, and you add in those roleplaying aspects as you play through a campaign. At the heart of it, you are still going to have those "moving dudes over maps" fighting bits.

[@johnmiddleton4291]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring None of that is actually roleplaying though. You are not actually interacting with any npcs. Exploration and fighting can involve actual rolepalying but that's all focused on conversations between a DM and the players and often outside the scope of written rules or adventures. No boardgame really does this. Walking between fights on a map is just strategic movement prior to tactical engagement. It's dudes on a map zoomed out. I also believe that all dungeon crawlers are just fighting simulators anyways. It's exactly the difference between board games and rpgs that you noticed recently playing D&D and the end game dungeon compared to the prior sessions.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I do know what roleplaying is, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my response. You asked if it was all dungeoncrawling, so first I answered that question. You have stuff that isn't what most people would define as dungeon-crawling - base building and overland travelling, for example. I then went on to say that if you want to play it as a roleplaying game you change the DM from an antagonist to a storyteller, and you have to add the roleplaying element. The roleplaying guidelines in the rules book are pretty minimal, but the idea is you use the game as the framework for organising fights and moving around locations, and then you roleplay stuff which all has to come from the DM and the campaign they are creating. There are NPCs in the game under normal circumstances, and of course the game has rules for those (these peasants are running away from bandits, there's a merchant in this side alley, or whatever), but you would have to add the roleplay bit where you talk to those characters afterwards. The game also covers a lot of the stats and skill tests that are familiar to RPG games. So, for example, the rules are in there for things like persuading people to do something (either through fear or charm), you just need to add the roleplay element onto that. I wouldn't call HeroQuest or Castle Ravenloft fighting simulators, but that's just semantics, really.

[@johnmiddleton4291]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I didn't say that overland and base building were part of dungeoncrawlers generally, though they are a part of many dungeon crawlers that are attempting to mimic D&D. Those components are pretty essential to D&D and some other rpgs, going back to the original edition in 1974. The majority of actions in all dungeon crawlers, especially Heroquest and Ravenloft is moving and fighting. The movement part is sometimes dubbed exploration, though it's more looking for and setting up the next fight. As far as simulation goes, none of these are at all close to a simulation, though I've read D&D rules mods that attempt such.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I feel like we're possibly misunderstanding each other in this exchange, as I wasn't suggesting you considered overland travel part of dungeon crawling, so I'm just going to roll it back to what you asked, and my answers to try and be clearer. Is it a pure dungeon crawler? No. There is overland travel and stuff going on between dungeons as well. (As an aside, there are battles that don't happen in dungeons, but I know neither of us would consider a game to be not a dungeon crawler just because some of the "dungeons" have some trees in them.) Is there actual roleplaying? The scope is there to roleplay and there is a small section in the rules about it. As the game has a dense rules set it covers things like NPCS, skill checks for stuff other than fighting, and solving puzzles, making it pretty easy to port those core elements into more of a roleplaying environment. You just need to drop in your roleplaying elements like fleshing out backstory for your heroes and adding in more talk-based events with the NPCs you meet. The reason I call DUN more of a simulation is because of its attempt to model all aspects of a fight accurately with extra rules, compared to something like HeroQuest which is just roll your dice and see what you hit in a much more abstract way. Technically, both approaches are simulating a fight, which is why I say it's really just semantics on why I would refer to one as a simulation more than the other. Hope I've explained myself clearly this time. I'm going to go put the coffee pot on!

[@danroberts007]

The idea of getting full use out of this albatross is appealing, but it's a desert mirage to this viewer. There's no way in hell I have the time to absorb all that information, no matter how good it may or may not be. It looks overly complicated; those character cards... it's just information overload. It reminds me of the movie Wonder Boys, in which Michael Douglas's character, a professor-novelist who can't finish his second book, has written thousands and thousands of pages of manuscript and one of his students, after reading it all makes the comment, "You need a good editor." This could rival the pinnacle that WHQ '95 achieved, but I doubt that it does. It's just getting in its own way of being a good game from what I can see here. As you say, it may work for a young gamer who devotes all their energies to it, but there's just no way I'm doing that. Besides, I already have a massive, barely played doorstop in Gloomhaven. ;-)

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's a really exciting box of stuff, and I think it's exactly what Oscar wanted it to be. He clearly has a vision of how he wants to model reality on the table, and some people are really going to get so much out of it. But yes, I think people need to be aware what they're getting themselves into. For me it's one of those games that I can admire for what it does, and be excited about the prospect of getting into it, while knowing that in reality I'm never going to get a tenth of the game's potential out of it.

[@haxan6663]

I am a big fan of dungeon crawlers and did consider it when it was last on Kickstarter. But it just looks too much? I have over 100 games and know that I would not be able to devote a huge amount to this one alone. It looks like a work of genius but having so many stats to take into account would probably send me crazy! At any one time, I have about 3 campaigns ongoing and couldn't fit this one in!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Exactly that. I like to skip between lots of different games, and Dungeon Universalis demands so much attention I just wouldn't be able to do that.

[@zombiedad]

Thanks ABNB. Great stuff.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks for watching.

[@Rich_H_1972]

Really great opinion/review/whatever, as always... DUN, for me, is a tabletop RPG crowbarred into a boardgame and its... incredibly tedious and dull as a result. Combine that with the poorly written rulebook(s), the overwrought game mechanics, rule after rule after rule, and the shoddy components and you have a game that, although you can see the love invested in it by the creator, falls far too short of the mark to be entertaining or worthwhile of the time it takes to get anywhere with it. Thank god it has some resale value because mine is getting sold! Gets a 2/10 from me, maybe a 3 when I'm in a nicer mood! 😆

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks for sharing your opinion on the game. I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it.

[@Rich_H_1972]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring All games aren't for everyone - board ones, RPGs, video games or otherwise. The world would be a duller place if they were!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Oh, of course - that sentiment is pretty much at the heart of this review, after all. And I didn't enjoy the game either, unfortunately. But it's never nice to get a game you are excited about and it turns out to be off the mark in terms of what you were hoping for.

[@callasmar]

Excellent review!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you.

[@michaelmitchell2123]

A really good review: well done

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you.

[@micasa6982]

This game remainds me to powers & perils rol plaiying game. Complicated? YES!! but fantastic!!!!Specially the combat!

[@jantuijp]

DUN combat is second to none IMHO. That's obviously where the meat is. A tactical feast.

[@Mailed-Knight]

Great vid.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you.

[@BLDTHEGAMER]

This or shadows of brimstone?

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

They are very different games really, so it depends what you like. I haven't personally played Brimstone, but it's going to be much more immediate and accessible and is to a certain degree a reskinned and modernised Warhammer Quest. Dungeon Universalis is more of a tool box, with very deep, granular rules. The settings are also quite different, with the Weird West setting of Brimstone being something quite different from the generic fantasy setting here. I would suggest checking out some playthroughs to see which game is most likely to connect with you.

[@BLDTHEGAMER]

@Always Board Never Boring Hello and good morning! I own both, and I agree with you completely. I suppose as far as content and time investment and both being I suppose lifestyle games. I wanted to know your personal opinion.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ah, I see. Dungeon Universalis didn't work for me. I really appreciate what it's trying to do, and all the options it provides, but as my series on my top 50 games shows, I do tend to lean more towards streamlined gaming experiences that don't require the level of investment DUN demands, so I would definitely choose Shadows of Brimstone out of these two. In fact Brimstone is still a game I intend to pick up at some point. I meant to do it once they released the second edition sets.

[@BLDTHEGAMER]

@Always Board Never Boring Hope you get a chance to. I'd like to hear your opinion. I feel Mr Hills designs tend to not be the tightest when it comes to rules. But they are dice chucking fun. But this one man's opinion. Thank you for answering.

[@paulharper7185]

Good overview and take. I think the complexity in the rules can be scaled back to your liking, dont want 8 different modifiers to your shoot roll, then pick your most inportant 2 and leave it at that. You make this game as simple as you want really as the rules are compartmentalized. Big But Coming...even then its way to much to manage solo or even with coop. The monsters have as much detail as the heroes from a stat, skill and weapons standpoint. You have to do multiple 2D6 VS rolls all with thier own modifiers from the situation, weapons and armors, You will be invoking abilities and spells of the enemies that require nuanced choices in how, where and when to apply. The rulebook calls this an Automated Dark Player (ADP, but its anything but. You will spend much more time on the monsters turn than you will on your hero turn, and that can be very off-putting. This should be considered only as a RPG with a gamemaster style game. As for a long campaign with hero advancement, I do feel there is a major structural issue that cant really be house ruled away (I have yet to figure one out I like). This game was based upon advanced Heroquest, if you have played it, you can feel in see it. AHQ was a D12 system, DUN changes this to 2D6 for the "to hit" mechanisim...hm, ok, but also chnaged the damage from D12's to D6's. And it severely hutrs it IMO. AHQ with its D12 has toughness ranges rom 3-12 (9 steps) that includes shields, with most falling from 6-10. DUN defense value is a stat range of 3-6 (4 steps) with most falling at either 4 to 6. Because the range is so small, it forces the shield bonus out of the equation and into yet another sub system of rules that require extra die rolls to resolve (imaging playing solo against a mob of shield wielding goblins). It also forces the critical mechanic out of this roll and into the VS 2D6 hit roll that is already burdended with excess modifiers (yet another sub-system). Setting aside the shield issue, you can see from the ranges that low armored are at about equal risk with the same number of damage dice, but high armored heroes are MUCH tougher in DUN than in AHQ. Needing a 6 to would and then your target also getting a shield save to ignone armor -- that compared to rolling a 10-12 on a D12 to wound....It trys to fix this through attacks typically having MORE damage dice that in AHQ to make it possible to hurt tanks, but that severly hurts the lower armor guys. Going into a orc den with a 3-4 toughnes hero with 3-4 health, where the orcs commonly have 5-7 damage dice, your looking at ~40% chance of that hero with 4-5 health going from full health to dead on each attack. So they try to fix that with.....I can go on and on, the desision to go to a single D6 range for hero & monster toughness limits the scaleing up and variability of heroes and mosnters, and forced the creation of MANY additional rules in an already rule burdened game. Unfortunately all the cards (weapons, armor, items, skills) are all based on the 4 step armor system and finding an elegent way to fix this has proven challenging.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm not even convinced you can scale the rules back by removing elements, and if I was going to do that, I would probably just go for a simpler rules set in the first place. Incidentally, Advanced HeroQuest is great and restoring my old copy is the next project once I finish up Space Crusade. I have been slowly purchasing Oldhammer miniatures to fill out the roster of enemies. Thanks for sharing your take, drilling into the figures a bit more.

[@Jendram]

I feel exactly as you. Added the controversy that supposes the revised edition for the backers of the first edition, being me one of them, this game has become for me a big disappointment that occupies a lot of space of my shelve. I thought of selling it, but due to the fact that my edition is the first one updated partially with the contents of the second one, it seems that it has lost its value. I don't have the time, nor the energy and eager colleagues to play it. As I already said, a truly disappointing game, cumbersome to learn and teach that's not going to see the day of being played on my table.

[@OldManYellingAtCardboard]

I thought the upgrade pack upgraded everything that was changed. What didn't it upgrade?

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm sorry to hear you were disappointed with it. It's always a shame when a game you're excited about doesn't land quite right with you. I guess, at least there are some really lovely board tiles and standees you might be able to get some use out of. Although, considering the game won't go to general retail, I'm sure you could still find someone who would be interested in the 1.5 edition.

[@Jendram]

@@OldManYellingAtCardboard Dark overlord screen, bestiary 1, quite several standees,... I have to check it, but for now, those ones are the ones that come to my mind.

[@hlorridirudel9627]

You didnt know, that this game will take much time as you backed it? And then you still backed the 2. Kickstarter for the upgrades? Seems to be your own fault...

[@jtfike]

@@hlorridirudel9627 now…now…keep your lawful evil comments in check…

[@paulwastney5134]

Any wish to revisit or play DUN?

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

DUN definitely wasn't for me. I have moved my copy on to a new owner who will hopefully love it and get many hours of enjoyment out of it.

[@paulwastney5134]

​@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring makes sense. As a reviewer you keep only what you love. Have you heard from the person who got it from you? Do they enjoy it?

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm afraid I don't know. I hope so. It's a very generous game, and for the right people who are prepared to dive into it there's a lot to like. It just wasn't a good fit for me personally. It gets a lot of love over on Board Game Geek.

[@olafbuddenberg4787]

Yes. This game is demanding a lot from you. But it likely gifts you with an equal amount.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

For the people who invest heavily into it, there's a lot to like.

[@jamesmorgan3623]

The rules feel like they've been translated into English by someone who doesn't play the game. They would benefit from a good editor.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

That might be something they look at refining again for the next Kickstarter. I think the basic rules is a great idea but that could possibly use a little bit more attention to really tighten it up and make it a much more accessible product as well. I actually didn't find the rules too difficult to read in terms of being a translated text, but I did find it difficult to find specific rules I needed, and there's just so much in the book to work through!

[@williamegan6756]

An honest comment: you really over-emphasise the rules complexity.. The reality is (as the designer himself intended) that many of the rules are optional to your style of play. For example: I never used the D&D rules for encumbrance ever as written, because it would have bogged down that game to oblivion. But that never stopped me from playing D&D! Dungeon Universalis is a toolset: take what you want, enjoy, and don’t bother with the rest.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

But I think you under emphasise the complexity. It’s clearly not a game for casual gamers, it does have a huge amount going on, and choosing not to use bits of the rules hasn’t made the rules less complex it’s just you’re not using those bits. And of course, often you need to learn a rule to decide you don’t want to use it.

[@williamegan6756]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring That’s a fair point - you do need to read the rules before you decide if you want to use them or not. It’s definitely not for the casual gamer, or even the novice RPG enthusiast. But I don’t think it was ever represented or marketed that way by Ludic Dragon. I’ve been playing RPGs for most of my life, and I get it’s more complex than most - but for many people it’s that complexity (or breadth of options, as I prefer to call it) that makes it so great.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Oh absolutely. It was clearly intended to be a complex game for people who want that, and was never intended as a casual pick-up-an-play experience. It has intricate rules accurately simulating real world experiences, and vast swathes of options. That's why I never call that level of complexity a flaw in the review. It's a great strength of the system, but people have to be prepared for it. I do think it's a game that demands a lot of the players - I do think it is falling into that "lifestyle game" cateogry - but there are a lot of people who want that, and for them this game is going to be a huge hit.

[@WarhammerQuest]

Great review! I have always felt that Warhammer Quest was a gem due to it's massive, but simplistic play! No one before or since has been able to create that balance like Warhammer Quest did. If this game was trying, they overshot it big time.

[@DustyLamp]

I think they were ering more towards an osr d&d experience in a boatd game than a WHQ-like, but there's bound to be overlap in a dungeon crawl. Love all the work you've done by the way! Much respect.

[@WarhammerQuest]

@@DustyLamp Many thanks! A labor of love!

[@1000jjwalker]

Man that set is nearly too big.

[@Mark-nh2hs]

Why make the rules that complicated? Is it a poor translation? I mean Advanced Heroquest in the time were seen as "complex" but it wasn't as complicated as this games rules 🤣🤣.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I think it's just a game that's trying to do everything, and for me personally, it's trying to do too much. I can appreciate what the designer was going for - he's made the game he wanted to make - but it just didn't land for me. I prefer things just a bit more streamlined.

[@Mark-nh2hs]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring totally agree. It's way to overwhelming and when you look at earlier games like Warhammer Quest - yes brutal on occasions but did explore the wider world and did it more streamlined.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

@@Mark-nh2hs Advanced Heroquest is my favourite of the more intricate dungeoncrawlers. It seemed to know which things you should micro-manage and which to let slide. Counting your arrows, running out of spell ingredients, writing a will... Little details that fleshed out the world but felt fully incorporated into the rules in a way that didn't bog things down.

[@Mark-nh2hs]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring totally agree love Advanced Heroquest - and being taxed and losing money and struggling to buy stuff. Love it.

[@1000jjwalker]

Far far too big and complicated for me and I've been playing rpg for nearly 2 decades.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's a very complicated system. I think if you could internalise it, it would do an amazing job, but it was a struggle for me.

[@1000jjwalker]

I watch a video on the rules that they produced and it honestly faded to white noice. But a part of me Is interested. But you said it at the end It requires too much of your life to run it.

[@olith]

It is like they only played games from the 80s. Games haven't just moved on in design to open to new audiences, they are refined and sophisticated. Not that there being a few games on the market like this isn't warranted of course. I expect a more modern version of this to come out from someone one day and be better though.

[@williamegan6756]

@@1000jjwalker It is not as complicated as most RPGs. And the rules could have been presented is a more streamlined way, for sure. But I own and have played many, many good dungeon crawlers over the last thirty years (from HeroQuest and WH Quest as a child, through to Descent, Gloomhaven, Folklore, Sword & Sorcery, Massive Darkness to more recently Arena the Contest, Drunagor, Bardsung) - and DUN, for me stands above them all.

[@1000jjwalker]

@@williamegan6756 good to know. I mean agien if I fell on it I'd enjoy it. But as it stands it's alittle ... big

[@Perchpole]

What a desperately negative review! Games like Hero Quest, Massive Darkness and the D&D board game series are very simplistic dungeon crawlers. Everything moves at top speed and there's a reward in every room. Dungeon Universalis, on the other hand, is the real deal. It adds the extra layer of detail that a proper dungeon crawler should have. The basic rules are no more complex than Shadows of Brimstone - which itself built on the success of Warhammer Quest 1995.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I wouldn't consider this a negative review.

[@Perchpole]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Of course it is! As far as your review is concerned, Dungeon Universalis isn't HeroQuest and it isn't Warhammer Quest. The rulebook has a few too many pages than you're used to - so run away now! Actually, Dungeon Universalis is a great game. Its biggest problem is that was written in a foreign language and then translated into English. There are inherent difficulties with this - which can make some of the wording seem clunky. However, delve a bit deeper and you'll discover it's a very rich and rewarding system. The core mechanics are simple and easy to pick up. The rulebook may be a bit thicker but not because it's complex but because it covers lots of eventualities (in a way that other rulebooks don't). There are also rules for playing with a human DM and rules for playing against the AI. Ultimately, DUN might be a bit more complex than HeroQuest - but so what? Even CoraQuest is more complex than HeroQuest - and it's a better game!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I never even mentioned HeroQuest. And I said the game was more generous than Warhammer Quest (I called it a super enhanced version). I called it a feast for hardened gamers, and one of the most extensive game systems I've seen. You say in your comment it's a rich and rewarding system. Fun fact: I used exactly the same wording in my review. I called it sophisticated, rich, and rewarding. Ultimately, I said it wasn't right for me, but for people looking for a big game with tons of options and plenty to sink your teeth into, it's a fantastic choice.

[@johnmiddleton4291]

The ultimate dungeon crawler is to just play D&D, of any edition, with minis, tiles, and maps if you choose. Everything else, WHQ included tries to mimic that. DUN is very basic compared to that.

[@hlorridirudel9627]

@@johnmiddleton4291 You cant play D&D coop or solo. So, it doesnt make sense.