Dungeon World is what you WANT D&D to be

For the longest time I was stumped.
I enjoyed playing D&D 5e with my friends. Like everyone else, it's where I got my start. I enjoyed the exploration aspect, the social RP aspect, and it was a great excuse to get together with good people and tell stories.
But I always felt there was something missing.
It wasn't until I discovered Dungeon World and the Powered by the Apocalypse system that I realized what WAS missing. Or rather, what there was too much of.
Too much of Fifth Edition gets bogged down in minutiae that's both frustratingly crunchy (who wants to remember all of those rules?) and yet incredibly vague.
Dungeon World and other PbtA games encourage the exploration and role playing side of things while mechanically rewarding you. And they don't get bogged down in a bunch of crunchy, immersion breaking, baloney.
Ultimately, it's what I wanted D&D to be
HE SAID THE TITLE IN THE DESCRIPTION!

[@jonaheslinger]

You are doing us a service here. Thank you. I hope more people play DW instead of D&D so i have more opportunities to play and not run games.

[@tabletopbro]

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[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

This is a GREAT breakdown of Dungeon World (and PbtA for those unfamiliar with it I imagine)! Whenever I'm able to return to in-person gaming I might give DW a shot, and this will be what I share with them!

[@tabletopbro]

You’re the man Ronald. Great stream over the weekend btw! Looking forward to part 2

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@tabletopbro Awesome! How much of it did you watch? It was really long lol. My tastes are kinda similar to yours I think since I like tactical PF2 but also am longing for more rules-light stuff. My next foray will be old school D&D because I've never really given it a go. After that I will try Dungeon World - I have the book but I found it a bit hard to learn, could've used a better organization, more examples maybe. Which kind of defeated the purpose. But I know that once a GM groks it it's easier to for players to jump into and the system facilitates engagement rather than gets in the way.

[@iurydantas4787]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG the portuguese edition comes with a pdf “Guide to Dungeon World”, which helps a lot. Yeah, it also defeats the purpose, but its kinda hard to go back to basics formsome reason. Probably its a free pdf out there too.

[@LeMayJoseph]

@@tabletopbro and I’d love it if you reviewed this thing in a video and shared the love! I had nothing to do with its creation, I just think it’s fantastic!

[@tabletopbro]

@@LeMayJoseph I don't speak Portuguese, but I'll check it out and film my thoughts!

[@zinkheroofyoutube8004]

I will miss the pure fear as the DM says, “Roll initiative”

[@FaptainCalcon750]

I either like rules light(Fatecore, PbtA stuff, etc) or rules heavy(P2e, P1e, 4e, Shadowrun, etc). One end of the spectrum or the other lol, I know, I’m weird. DnD 5e is kind of in this weird middle ground between rules light and rules heavy that doesn’t really jive with me.

[@tabletopbro]

I feel that. It’s like you’ve gotta commit to one or the other. I like P2e when I’m going for that video game experience as there’s more, better laid out options, and DW for the cinematic, storytelling experience.

[@revylokesh1783]

5E is simple on the surface, but very fiddly and cumbersome underneath.

[@synmad3638]

I think the issue is that 5e is way too hard to learn for how simple it is when you're actually playing. Like, other systems that are just as (or less!) complex have more character customization, more interesting combat, etc.

[@BloodiedShingle]

Same feelings here.

[@ollywright]

Same here. PF2 for tactical fantasy combat. Fate & PBtA for fiction-first. 5e can’t make up its mind what it wants to be and falls flat between the two for me.

[@Kadakism01]

Found your channel through the Rules Lawyer discord server. Love the short breakdown; DW was one of the first systems I tried when I wanted to break away from crunchier fantasy games like D&D. Def got a new subscriber here.

[@tabletopbro]

Thanks! I hope you enjoy the content!

[@gaidenn3937]

My favorite system for running fantasy games. And my favorite supplement for it is Grim World. It has 15 races (each of which can choose any class) and 7 cool new classes. It also adds Death Moves which makes character deaths very epic.

[@tabletopbro]

brb looking up Grim World. That sounds sick!

[@rossm7346]

I am so glad you are making these awesome videos trying to shine a light on these awesome games. Lots of people have problems in TTRPGs that can be solved by switching to the right fitting system for the group: “I’m a Dad, my kids are 13 and 12 and they are struggling to grasp the game!” (Pssst, play Dungeon World!) “My players have gotten to level 10, and now they are starting to feel bored and combats take 2 hours.” (Pssssst, play Dungeon World!) To paraphrase Matt Collville, often times the problems tables are having isn’t a bad DM, or a bad story, they are actually running up against a wall of how the game system works. 5e “isn’t one size fits all”, but because it is the “brand name” of TTRPGs people go through a lot of pain to make it that way. That takes away tons of potential fun from the hobby, burns out GMs and turns away potential players.

[@tabletopbro]

Couldn't agree more Ross! I was definitely one of those players/DM's who was burning out from D&D because of various problems I was having with the system. I didn't even realize it was one game in a whole genre and there were games that filled the needs of what I was looking for in a Tabletop game. The metaphor I like to use for the hesitant is, "you can pour as much chocolate sauce on vanilla icing as you'd like, but chocolate ice cream will still do the job better." (I'm workshopping it okay 😂)

[@RestlessFrog]

Would love to see some more ‘Dungeon World’ content

[@tristanevans5024]

The Class Warfare supplement fixes all the issues I had with DW. Love the game!

[@tabletopbro]

I’ll have to check it out! Thanks for the tip!

[@henriqueribeiro8167]

owee, I was part of a West marches project using it! Amazing stuff.

[@tristanevans5024]

@@henriqueribeiro8167 Dungeon World works great for West Marches style games. Really DW has replaced D&D for me. Love the way it works so much more fluid than D&D

[@tabletopbro]

May have to put together a West Marches DW lobby, that sounds like a great time!

[@joshelguapo5563]

Played a lot of different systems with a lot of different levels of number crunching (5E is on the low end of that btw, old time dnd fans find 5E is dumbed down) and I almost never get a complaint about number crunching, it's almost always about the pressure to role play from other players. A lot of people are intimidated and do want to play a game rather than be pressured into improv. I would disagree that most people get into DND because they "want to tell stories." People get into it for a wide variety of reasons and people are into different levels of wargaming and role playing. DND did start from a wargaming group after all. Some people get invested in the narrative, others want a space to mess around, others want a highly strategic game where they can customize their builds, synergize a party, and play a tactical game. I get you prefer the role playing aspect and that's great, you found a game that works for you and I'm glad you love it, but a lot of us like the game aspect and DND is barely number crunchy compared to systems like 3.5, GURPS, Witcher/Cyberpunk, and you don't have to be a dick about it.

[@tannerlebel5167]

Always good to find a channel that feels like it's in the thousands of subscribers but is still starting out. Always a good sign.

[@tabletopbro]

Thanks man! Glad you’re enjoying the content

[@NateFordify]

2:50 I am very impressed that this man managed to get a +10 modifier to strength.

[@tabletopbro]

You don’t become Brokage without game breaking stats

[@jermainereyem7635]

The Classes all have an open spot under Race meant to accommodate new Races (with the exception of Barbarian, which is solely the "Outsider" Race regardless of character biology). So while other Races aren't listed the game definitely intends for people to come up with new ones! I oftentimes have to remind new players of this since the DnD mentality is "available Races are those published in source books".

[@tabletopbro]

100% My players didn't really mind the limited race options available in the vanilla book. But I told pretty much what you said to my other group of friends who are DW-curious, but hesitant due to the race restraints present in the book.

[@Pumpkinetic]

@@tabletopbro there is no restraint! Empty space is for your custom or whatever race. Nowhere in rules they prohibit you to pick on your own. The selected reace is for giving an example of ability. Great vid tho!

[@danarashi3750]

This is EXACTLY what I have been looking for, and I was literally talking about what would make dnd fun for me as a player, which happens to be the way DW plays. awesome can't wait to play. Thanks for your video!

[@tabletopbro]

Of course! Glad I could be of service!

[@phaedruslive]

Whitebox does a this really well by just playing very fast and lets the DM make up or ignore as much as they want. Really any of the OD&D and B/X do this well.

[@override367]

Why not just have the DM read a story or do an improv session

[@spacelem]

@@override367 because despite being rules light, OD&D and B/X have a structure to hang a game on and structured randomness to surprise everyone, GM included. There's a huge amount of emergent gameplay from the classic D&D rules that improv doesn't provide you. DW gives you a very different experience, and it's not necessarily preferable for everyone.

[@VengerSatanis]

You misspelled Crimson Dragon Slayer D20, hoss.

[@harringtonmartin]

Great vid.. Good on ya for making this. DW is fantastic and more people need to know about it.

[@TheAtheistChef]

For my players, since I discovered dungeon world midway into campaign , I just converted to the rules of combat and exploration to DW. So they got to keep all their abilities and it allowed spells to be used in ways beyond just RAW. For example: player was wrapped in a tentacle , another player used chill touch , the justification that necrotic damage is about decay , the attack weakened the tentacle to let it free . Player wanted to misty step behind the enemy, but he rolled an 8 , so he got partial success . So the player then explained that in the middle of the cast , the monsters eyes caught him last second and he turned at the last second and teleported in front of him instead of behind . My players even had fun in failure because they got to make up a reason for their failure or their sacrifice. Plus my players are doing all the rolls , I fuckin love it

[@tabletopbro]

That sounds like a really cool way to transition to the system! I wish I had read this comment a year ago before my 5e game fell apart.

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

Oof, that combat cutaway hurts. The GM doesn't tell the players what move the player makes! You as the GM don't say "the NPC attacks you, roll Hack'n'Slash." I'm going to edit here and preempt some of the replies I might get. Dungeon World is very specific in its design philosophy. The GM has specific rules to follow, and an agenda and a set of principles to guide them when applying those rules. None of those rules are to tell a player what he or she does. In this example of the cutaway, the insulted baddie might be attacking the player as part of a GM move, which has many triggers, sometimes just the "catch-all" trigger of When the players look to you to see what happened. This GM move is a soft move (a hard move being something like "The axe cleaves into your shield a few inches, the force of the blow causing a sickening crunch in your shoulder. Take 4 damage and your arm is dislocated."). Since the GM never says the name of their moves, we don't tell the players which GM move we selected; we don't need to. All we need to do is ask "What do you do?" In the cutaway, the GM controlled the PC by saying that he fights back. No, bad GM! Instead, he should ask "What do you do?" And let the player tell the game what the PC does. Maybe he fights back, triggering Hack and slash. Maybe he defends with his shield, triggering Defy Danger via Constitution, with the danger being the damage an axe can do. Maybe he dodges, dips, dives, ducks, and dodges away, triggering a Defy Danger Dexterity roll. By telling the player to roll+strength, you're telling them they Hack and Slash (or Defy Danger Strength I suppose) and you shouldn't be telling them anything they do. You should ask "What do you do?"

[@dm4life579]

Starting a campaign soon I am sure my players will fall in love with this one just like did with Blades in the Dark.

[@tabletopbro]

My former 5e only players love it!

[@TheBurgerkrieg]

I was about to say, at the end: as soon as you even understand the basics of Dungeon World it becomes super easy to make up your own playbooks, even if you create them as you go. I've been making this point for a while though, it's very true.

[@tabletopbro]

I picked it up fairly recently, but I hope to get on your level soon!

[@tskproductions2410]

NICE video, great edits and content, insta sub

[@tabletopbro]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it, I put a lot of work into it

[@krisschnee3151]

Good pitch for the game. I'd add that it encourages the players to make decisions and bits of world design even while "failing", since medicore die results often mean picking from a menu for how your action half-worked. Twice now I've seen a GM make up a one-shot adventure with some version of this system (a cyberpunk one and a Star Wars set), on the fly. Longer games have a set of GM advice for adventure design. About races, that's a drawback to the system because the game is so class-centric. A race is just one gimmick tacked onto a class. I've seen attempts to have a race-first "class" such as a crafty kobold. Either way it's a bit limiting.

[@wispsprojects1120]

My favorite system of all times is Freeform Universal by Nathan Russel. It has all the freedom of Dungeon World without any of the restrictions and has even fewer rules to remember. It doesn't have much grasps for new players though (but it's enough if the GM knows how to run a game) nor any genre-specific rules - it kinda trusts the players that they know what kind of experience they want and won't abuse the freedom given to them. I think AWE games are better for beginners and players who look for a rules-light but still more structured experience, but if you want to go even more cinematic and story-driven, don't stop looking for other systems. There are so many out there, the skies the limit :)

[@neokobepizza8611]

I've heard a lot of good stuff about Dungeon World. I've only got the play the PbtA game Monter of the week and I enjoyed that. I just wonder if it may be better to go for a generic system like FATE or Cortex Prime for more cinematic, narrative style games since those can be run in all sorts of genres.

[@tabletopbro]

I REALLY want to play Monster of the Week. I feel like my players would LOVE it. I’ve never played either of those! I guess if you wanted one game to do cinematic stuff it’d be the way to go, but if you know you want to do picking up the PbtA game that does that would produce a better experience. (I could also be full of shit as, like I said, I haven’t played either).

[@AndrewGarrett_LordTubtub]

Started D&D in 1988. In 2019 I had so heavily modified my game that one of my players said "When do we stop calling this D&D." That was when I realized I was not playing D&D cause I liked it but because it was the first game that I started with. Had picked up DW in 2014 after playing at Dragon Con and pulled it back out. Switched systems in November of 2019 and have not missed D&D one bit.

[@tabletopbro]

I had a similarish experience (on a shorter timescale though). In case it wasn’t evident in the video, I can’t stand D&D combat as it bored the piss out of me. I didn’t really know other games existed until a friend of mine kept recommending Pacion de las Paciones and then the flood gates of discovery opened!

[@AndrewGarrett_LordTubtub]

@@tabletopbro Right! I had owned the DW book since 2014. Read it but really did not get it. When o decided to switch systems since I owned it I started there. It was like I was back in 8th grade learning to game again. After that I picked up a bunch of PtbA games and pull stuff from them to add to my DW game. The team pool from Masks is great. I did a boss fight in one game in like 5 min and everyone was high fiving each other after the fight. Would have taken an hour in 5th ed.

[@tabletopbro]

Freaking love Masks. It was my first actual foray into PbtA systems and is still one of my favorite games to this day. (It was also the subject of my first video *cough* shameless self promotion *cough*)

[@AndrewGarrett_LordTubtub]

@@tabletopbro No need to apologize for shameless self promotion. I 100% approve that! I just discovered your channel after your post on Reddit about this video so I got some watching to do. We actually picked up Masks by accident. I had only run DW and really did not understand how PbtA games worked. So we wanted a Sups game and picked that up. We did not realize it was a game about angsty teens trying to find their place in the world...oh and they have super powers! So we then picked up Worlds in Peril and enjoy that.

[@tabletopbro]

@@AndrewGarrett_LordTubtub I think I’ve come across Worlds in Peril once or twice before but never really looked into it. Just off a quick glance it looks pretty interesting and might interest a few of my players who thought the premise of Masks was lame

[@jameswhite3043]

Hmm I run two games, with a total of 12 players. More than half enjoy strategic, boardgame style combat. Plenty of folks are not into the role-playing part of DnD, as it turns out.

[@captainnolan5062]

Session Zero has a lot of great Dungeon World resources: kzbin.info

[@nimlouth]

Your edit quality is great I hope you gain more subs in the future, if not for the cool and kind of alternative content you make. And yeah, in my long experience with tabletop RPGs, Dungeon World is what 19/20 newbs and 7/10 veteran players ACTUALLY want out of a d&d session. I actually think the core game is enough for most rpg groups but I wish there was a 2nd or "Advanced" edition with more character options so I don't need to mod/hack it so much haha.

[@tabletopbro]

Thanks Nicolás I hope I do too😂 I know on the Dungeon World subreddit there’s a couple of “revised” unofficial editions that make various improvements on the core game. I haven’t checked them out yet so I can’t say what they do specifically, but they do exist!

[@MrToastOmnomnom]

My guy, MY GUY! YES MY GUYYYYY

[@tabletopbro]

Hahaha glad you liked it

[@spacelem]

"People started playing D&D to tell epic stories with their friends". Nope, I started with 3e, and I did enjoy the gaminess of it all (CharOp etc.). Gradually I found I couldn't keep up with the gaminess, and drifted towards classic D&D and the retroclones, with its greater emphasis on "challenge the player, not the character". I'm very happy with that level of complexity, it seems that DW is just a different way of doing pretty much the same thing, not better or worse, just different. There's also a lot of emergent gameplay in those basic games, and if you make radical changes, you might find that the feel changes quite a bit. I kind of see DW as a source of things I might find interesting to incorporate into my D&D game, not replace it entirely.

[@tabletopbro]

You're right in that Old School games and DW are essentially two ways to accomplish the same objective in that they're both rules light (or at least Old School games trend that way) and they focus more on emergent gameplay rather than a predetermined story. I've found that Old School games lean more towards the player being the active actor if you will while Dungeon World focuses more on the character. Shameless plug but I DID do a video on some Dungeon World rules that work very well in other systems!

[@Joshuazx]

INITIATIVE IS A TERRIBLE MECHANIC. It's like stopping a movie right before the best part to take drink orders.

[@tabletopbro]

Couldn’t agree more

[@mikepowell5202]

I stumbled on your channel trying to find combat demos for Dungeon World, or any other PBTA game. I'm interested in trying them, but there isn't a PBTA scene in my area. It would be cool to see a demo before investing in books and presenting the idea to my group. Do you have a video that covers this, or would you be up for posting something? I haven't been able to find any other demos that aren't like 2 hours long! Really dig your content so far, cheers!

[@tabletopbro]

If you look up The Rules Lawyer Dungeon World, you can find an actual play I did with The Rules Lawyer and co on his channel! ...it is like 4 hours long though. I also have a "campaign diary" on my channel as well where I go over what happened and talk about a couple of my decisions regarding what happened.

[@mikepowell5202]

@@tabletopbro thanks, look forward to checking those out!

[@TheBoglodite]

Fantasy World and how it's different from Dungeon World video?

[@tabletopbro]

I had a similar-ish idea in the hopper a few months ago, sounds like its time to revive it! 😎

[@TheBoglodite]

@@tabletopbro would love to see that!

[@keldin9303]

I own Monster of the Week. My problem was there was too many "yes but" results. I enjoy picturing "boring" D&D combat in my head in very cool ways. Narrative prompts during combat break my flow.

[@tabletopbro]

Whatever works best for you!

[@harlemsar]

It's unfortunate that this system heavily relies on the Dungeon Master (DM). I've had experience with Dungeon World (DW), and the combat aspect sometimes felt monotonous - the repetitive cycle of attack, receive damage, attack, receive damage. While DW aims for limitless possibilities, it becomes less engaging if the DM lacks a high level of imagination and storytelling expertise. Having fewer rules can lead to a loss of excitement relatively quickly in such cases.

[@tabletopbro]

That's true and definitely one of the systems downfalls. It requires a LOT more buy in from everyone (not just the DM) and that can be draining, especially if you just want to kick back, relax, and throw some dice.

[@BigFantasyGames]

I've never met a person who wanted to play D&D because of storytelling. sorry, this is more of a fantasy than anything written by WOTC.

[@tabletopbro]

Why do your friends like playing DnD?

[@BigFantasyGames]

@@tabletopbro sorry that probably seemed like a mean post. I see it as a game and so do my friends. The referee/ GM lays out the setting and any special rules or parameters and the players act as their characters would in said scenario then the ref reacts and adjudicates. Rinse, repeat, and eat snacks along the way. I suppose that the recap at the beginning of the session is story time in a way but it’s usually short and isn’t the game.

[@tabletopbro]

You're fine I only cried for 20 minutes (I'm kidding). It is a game, a game ultimately about storytelling. What you just described; with the ref laying out the rules is a form of storytelling. Your players likely don't join up for a dry bit of rolling dice. I do agree with you in that nobody plays these silly games for the story the GM's put together (don't do that) or to find out what happens to Strahd or whatever. They play to find out what happens at the table via the rules of the game.

[@colbyboucher6391]

@@BigFantasyGames And the rules are there to tell an interesting story first and foremost. If you want a pure wargame you'd be better off with something like Gloomhaven or D&D 4e.

[@BigFantasyGames]

@@colbyboucher6391 nah I just play anything I want just like I said earlier and it’s awesome and fun. Sorry bro

[@hellentomazin6488]

I think you are wrong to assume everyone wants to tell a story... spend half a hour reading a traditional RPG forum from the 2000's and you will see a bunch of people telling you how RPGs are not about telling stories and if you want to tell a story you are not actually playing an RPG. Lets say you went fishing and caught a bluefin tuna, later you can tell your friends the epic story about how you caught a bluefin tuna. But while you were trying your objective wasn't to tell the story later. Same with trad RPGs, sure you can tell the story later... but while you are roleplaying you objective is to pretend to be a character in an imaginary world, not to tell the story of it.

[@GoblinLord]

so, what you're telling me is that the one problem with the system is easily fixable and has basically already been fixed by other fans and they're not too hard to slot in the game? Well sign me up, fellow traveler!!!

[@tabletopbro]

If you're looking for a more narrative heavy cinematic game, then that's correct!

[@pewprofessional3181]

So Dungeon World is just a modern version of TSR era D&D? Everything described here was already how TSR D&D was played. Rules light, role-play heavy. Describing everything you are doing, and only rolled dice when necessary. Your character sheet can fit on a small index card. Wotc ruined that by making D&D a rules heavy complex nightmare. 3e, 4e, 5e are D&D in name only. Far removed from what made D&D great.

[@mattw.4589]

Theater kids don't understand real D&D and will never discover the win conditions.

[@TheAnimeAtheist]

the idea that less rules = more story is simply false. Rather what happens is that the interactive approach to the game changes, Dungeon World is not "more roleplay heavy" because it has less rules. 1:30 this isn't a plus necessarily, now you've reduced the unique ways that characters can stand out and interact with the narrative in unique ways. 1:55 as it does in Dungeon World. DW is more focused on resolving the combat rather than playing it out, which leaves an incredibly shallow combat experience. 3:56 That's not even neutral necessarily, morally speaking, and I don't know how it could be. 4:05 the fact that you don't see a problem with this kind of incentivization is astounding. 4:08 ah yes, class based alignment restrictions. D&D got rid of them for a reason, this isn't a positive. 4:12 but it is the best way to min max, which incentivizes the creation of shallow singled minded characters rather than deep and complex ones. And in this way the game actually incentivizes worse RP than d&d does

[@FaeKitty]

"Dungeon World is what you WANT D&D to be." No, it's not. While I have issues with both D&D5E and PF2E, I don't like Dungeon World any better. In particular, I hate the 'player facing' aspect of the game. I find DMing DnD5E/PF2E tedious at best, but I find GMing DW boring--I don't get to roll any dice, among other things.

[@FaeKitty]

A player facing game probably works fine as a solo game , where you are playing by yourself though since you actually get to roll dice.

[@jnarical]

Boring? Hell no! I can’t even have beer while GMing, this game takes all mind resources that I have, and the biggest part where players ask me and I like “I don’t know! Let’s find out!” This games makes wonderful stories which enroll in front of you and you have no clue how the the story ends

[@francoiscolin6692]

And it's not as wokie wokie as PF2E and D&D5e!

[@johnSmith-cr9gb]

man i hope you read dungeon world better than you did dnd if you think that new players need to read 320 pages.

[@tabletopbro]

I’m illiterate

[@Frederic_S]

A truth nobody wants to hear ^^

[@hawkname1234]

Yeah... No. This is pretty obnoxious. Most people play D&D because 1) most people play D&D and network effects are real but also 2) they like playing D&D. "Everyone's fun is wrong if they don't like what I like" is just so petulant and childish. I've played Dungeon World. I liked it fine. It was more RP. I like D&D a LOT more. Lots of people do. Probably most people do.

[@tabletopbro]

D&D’s fine for a starter game since it has the name brand recognition. But it really doesn’t do anything WELL. If you like the crunchy gaminess of it - which it sounds like you do - Pathfinder 2e does a much better job. If you like the RP aspect, DW does a much better job. If you prefer a more hardcore meat grinder experience, there’s a vast array of OSR games out there that do a better job. If you’ve tried all those systems and still like 5e the best, then more power to you! In my experience, there are a TON of 5e players who would be much happier playing another system who don’t because they don’t know they exist

[@override367]

So this is just D&D first edition? Cool, lol 1. Forced to play to alignment by mechanics, 2. no class/racial choice, 3. simplistic RPG tropes ONLY, 4. simplified (probably poorly balanced) combat 5. Limited choices that exist further limited by nonsensical alignment gates 6. Fans of it think they are cool and hip but really they're nerdier and far more obnoxious than D&D 5eplayers Yep

[@tabletopbro]

Not even close but go off king

[@tomryan3768]

I don't think you need to trash D&D to elevate other games. DW has it flaws too.

[@tabletopbro]

DW certainly does. But it does the narrative/cinematic storytelling REALLY well. D&D doesn’t really do anything REALLY well. It’s kind of crunchy. But PF does tactical crunchy combat better. It’s kind of narrativey, but doesn’t have any specific systems set in place for narrative play like PbtA games. What D&D has going for it is that it’s wildly popular and does everything kind of well. Which makes it great for newcomers to the hobby to get a feel for what they like before moving into a game that does it better.

[@colbyboucher6391]

@@tabletopbro Thank GOD someone else gets this. 5e was designed by committee and does almost nothing well as a result, the only thing it has going for it is the cultural momentum to make people say "let's play D&D" rather than "let's play a TTRPG" because people don't know anything else exists and the sort of person who's too lazy to actually learn D&D's rules could never be convinced to try something else, even if it's actually simpler. (If I want something 5e-like I'll play Pathfinder 2e, if I want something simulationist I'll play Mythras (brilliant game IMO), if I'm looking for an old-school dungeon crawl I'll play DCC or some other OSR thing, if I'm looking for something rules-lite and narrative-first I'll play a PBtA game or FATE. I can't think of a situation where 5e is actually the thing to pick up.)

[@mookiewilson4166]

DW is great concept, but I would never want to play a game which had such poorly and undefined mechanics for arbitrating things like hits and damage and so forth. I’m all for paring down clunky rules, but I don’t think that wondering what form the DM will choose for coming up with an ad hoc, subjective decision about what a partially successful strike with a longsword will look like. Did I hit? Great. Let me roll 1d8 for damage. This doesn’t call for some dopey collective shared storytelling moment of working it out-it calls for a d8 and subtraction. Honestly, the best combo I’ve found is to play a fun, rules light rpg like OSE, Basic Fantasy RPG, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Advanced Fighting Fantasy, BECMI or B/X, or one of dozens of others...and apply some of the principles that DW affirms. To my way of thinking, DW is not a good game, but more of an interesting book about RPG philosophy and some principles of gameplay to keep in mind.

[@tabletopbro]

I think it all comes down to what your preferred playstyle is like. If you like your TTRPG's to be more Gamey than Cinematic, then I can 100% see where you're coming from. I personally prefer to play a more narrative approach because mechanics get in the way of my fun. Pretty much everyone in one of my two groups feels the same way. Pretty much everyone in my other group prefers more of what you're saying in terms of mechanics and the very narrative heavy playstyle of DW and other PbtA games didn't click with them at all. I do sort of agree with your last point in terms of, everyone (or at least DM's) should pick up DW as it has a bunch of good points about RPG philosophy and gaming principles that do translate really well to other systems.

[@mrmiffmiff]

@@tabletopbro I'd actually also say that everyone should read Apocalypse World if it's just a matter of philosophy. Might even be better than Dungeon World in some senses as far as pure reading material.

[@colbyboucher6391]

...Sorry, but have you actually read Dungeon World? Because hits and damage are not arbitrary. Here's the rules for the Hack & Slash move: When you attack an enemy in melee, roll+Str. ✴On a 10+, you deal your damage to the enemy and avoid their attack. At your option, you may choose to do +1d6 damage but expose yourself to the enemy’s attack. ✴On a 7-9, you deal your damage to the enemy and the enemy makes an attack against you. The move tells you explicitly what a partial success looks like. You still roll your damage die but the enemy rolls for damage as well. Nor is damage arbitrary. You're given a damage die depending on your class. You're also told exactly when this move applies. If the enemy is unaware of you, it doesn't apply. If it's a situation where you obviously won't be able to hurt something like trying to jam a sword through dragon scales, it doesn't apply. Otherwise, if you swing a weapon at someone, it's Hack & Slash. No "collective working it out storytelling" there. If anything, you could steal DCC's "Deeds of Might" or whatever it's called that the Fighter gets to give players a way to mechanically describe stuff in a fun way.

[@siwesznaucery]

Each player may like a system that suits them better. It is a pity, however, that you used such far-reaching arguments that they are almost untrue. It lowers your credibility to me a lot.

[@tabletopbro]

100%. Not everyone’s gonna enjoy fiction first games as much as me and that’s totally okay! Ultimately I’m here to entertain. I’m sure there’s far smarter and more credible people out there regarding 5e and Dungeon World, but they’re not making videos 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@GeneralTantzu]

Dungeon World is D&D for people who don't like math, simple as.

[@jermainereyem7635]

It's also faster paced and less war-gamey

[@spacelem]

There are older editions of D&D that have many fewer moving parts, and retroclones that patch the clunky bits like Thac0. If you play something like Whitehack you'll get a game that has practically no maths, genuinely lets you play nearly any character concept, but still feels very much like classic D&D.

[@pewprofessional3181]

THAC0 was only an option and rarely used.

[@ericdollarhyde3296]

Lol lame like dragon invasion

[@DMRaptorJesus]

Dungeon World is a 407 page rulebook. Its not rules light man, idk why people keep spouting this out like its a fact. Nothing wrong with dungeon world, but man it is not rules. For the players? Yes, but they also can't seem to read the PHB either. For the GM? No, and if you've been GMing a while its actually a slog to figure out how your campaign should actually look. idk about any of your other points, they seem pretty valid, but this is not a rules light game when its more pages than the DMG (now all three combined, yes its smaller). It won't help you RP better, it just forces you to RP so you can get a stronger character and this can lead to some downsides in a game. I've ran games where the RP was amazing, and games where they were just going down the checklist so they can get another cool power. You don't need to convince people to RP, you should just do it because its fun not because your getting XP or headpats from the DM.

[@rory7590]

I hate this. I’ve played Dungeon World - it really isn’t that amazing and I’d rather play D&D.

[@tabletopbro]

Different strokes

[@philistineau]

Nope. The game has terrible mechanics. Higher levels are a cake walk.