Cleric Subclass Tier Ranking in D&D 2024

[@valerius88]

I like the new focus on S tier, no longer being just "really good", instead being "potentially broken or problematic at tables". That feels much more helpful for players and the right focus in general for analysis of how the classes and subclasses are balanced.

[@AnaseSkyrider]

It's always been there, but it feels more direct now.

[@michaellawyer4885]

@@valerius88 agreed. It's a really good reason I like the revision to Paladins. If you didn't use your spell slots to smite you were "playing wrong" and if you did it's possible you ended encounters without allowing the other players from being able to do anything, which decreases party fun. Edit:I played 1-16 Paladin in Against the Giants.

[@jakeholmes9296]

Agreed, its great!

[@doomkitty8386]

It explains why Light Domain isn't S Tier. It's extremely good, an all-around improvement to Cleric, but doesn't risk breaking the game.

[@metal0jello]

100% agree. I’ve had a few players at my table play subclasses that were S-Tier which definitely made the game less fun for me as the GM because of how overpowered they were. Looking at you Echo Knight!

[@Draeckon]

I really wish the Life domain cleric had a class feature that let them grant temporary HP (besides a Spell) or to Overheal, giving Temp HP (or increasing Max HP) by the amount of excess healing.

[@Jekrane]

Yeah- I agree. Especially because Light Domain- Basically the Blaster Clerics- Get to grant temp HP when using one of their features. But Life Domain doesn’t, for whatever reason.

[@valiantgm]

That could be a really cool homebrew magic item idea?

[@bobnewkirk7003]

IMO Life needed to get a lot of the toys of the Twilight cleric. We probably wont see peace or twilight without some serious revision in 5.24 so letting Life run a divinity with temp HP would give more weight to hardcasting healing spells with the life domain feature.

[@Jekrane]

@@bobnewkirk7003 With great dread and sorrow, I am waiting for when they will release Twilight Cleric 2024.. Oh, its in desperate need of a nerf, yes- but i will miss my overpowered emo clerics :(

[@binolombardi]

A party member, potentially the cleric themselves, can increase the healing threshold with the AID spell. “Tough” origin feat also does this and can stack. Inspiring leader works along with as a source of Temp HP with charisma or wisdom based characters.

[@AnimatingClass101]

I think we're overlooking the changes to healing spells for high level life domain clerics that just max out dice. A 3rd level spell slot can easily mean 18 healing per person as a bonus action.

[@shaneconnolly4747]

That was already in the 2014 Life Cleric

[@AnimatingClass101]

@@shaneconnolly4747 healing spells now do twice as many dice worth of healing, which scales massively with maximizing dice.

[@AnimatingClass101]

@@shaneconnolly4747 A 5th level Mass Cure Wounds does 5d8+Wisdom. By this level, that means you do 40 + 5 + 7 (52) healing to 6 people, and then an additional 7 healing to yourself. And you can do this with greater potency by upcasting. Even at high levels, this is *massive* healing that can undo several rounds of damage. This is different from 2014, when it was 3d8+Wisdom (24+5+7 = 36) which is fine, but is not nearly as good. And upcasting normal healing word is so insanely potent too now, when it was just completely negligible in 2014.

[@LadyAhro]

@@AnimatingClass101My partner homebrewed this into our games for a while so it’s great to see it implemented properly.

[@shaneconnolly4747]

@@AnimatingClass101 I meant the maxxing dice was already in the 2014 class.

[@Jin_1814]

My favorite life domain memory is when the Monk was getting eaten by a T-Rex and kept going onconscious while the life domain Cleric constantly got them back up.

[@cenzo_rex]

Hard to imagine a more horrific experience... Monk: Oh, God! He's chewing me! Cleric: Don't worry! I can keep you alive! Monk: No! Stop! It hurts! Oh, just please let me die!!!!

[@Jekrane]

Common cleric W.

[@kevinaguilar9454]

That is so dark 😅

[@chatwithaninja]

Everlasting gobstopmonk

[@heartoffire5902]

Reminds me of Dragon's Dogma 2 and the healer pawns that just giddily watch you get stun-locked and mauled on the ground by a pack of wolves while exclusively healing you and doing absolutely *nothing* to actually end the feeding frenzy. I swear they do it on purpose just to prolong your suffering.

[@christaylor9929]

As others have pointed out, you seem to have missed this part of Preserve Life for Life Domain: "This feature can restore a creature to no more than half its Hit Point maximum."

[@Itsumich]

This was the case in 2014, did it stay the same with the new edition?

[@Jekrane]

Yeah, i hate that line of text to be honest. It was about to be a great channel divinity, and then they have to throw in the "sike uhm actually you can only heal them up to half, limiting your healing ability, when healing is already not great in 5e/5.5e"

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@Itsumich It does say that in PHB2024; just checked

[@beaudoullahoblongatta]

This sounds like something that I will continue to ignore lol. Far be it from me to tell my players um actually when it comes to healing. Good catch though

[@5-Volt]

​@@JekraneIt also just slows down the game to math out each person's half-max HP vs how much you can give out. Just needlessly complicated. I can't believe they kept that qualifier..

[@Zagrakhen]

For comparison, this is what Monty & Kelly gave 4 years ago for the Cleric Subclass Tier Ranking : - Life Domain : S - Light Domain : A -Trickery Domain : B -War Domain : C

[@wudchop]

Which is what I find wild. Overall, I think the cleric has improved and the life domain only got better. Other than not being able to use the good berry strategy I can’t see why it’s rating would drop so much

[@abcrasshadow9341]

Honestly it was too high before. ​@@wudchop

[@brettshull2141]

Heavy Armor proficiency for Life was very strong. Also, healing has been muted some over the years.

[@wudchop]

@@abcrasshadow9341 not disagreeing but it does make me laugh, how if you watch their old cleric rankings, they talk this domain up massively. Now it’s regarded as situational.

[@Chaosmancer7]

Thank you. I think it is really interesting to see Life's fall, but overall I'm not surprised. The Life domain abilities always sounded really good, but when you actually get into play... You heal an additional +4 hp and heal yourself for 4 hp on the same turn. For the VAST majority of the subclass, that's it. Now that the Heavy armor was moved out, and we are just looking at the unique life abilities, they lose a lot of that old luster.

[@docnevyn5814]

My understanding is 2024 Disciple of Life only applies the turn you cast the spell. Therefore, it will have little effect on Aura of vitality (round 1 only) and none on goodberry.

[@Aldaking444]

If a bunch of creatures hold their actions to eat a berry the moment you create them, I would argue that disciple of life would still apply (although this is only 4 hp restored rather than 1). If you could use a held action to feed another creature than you could heal more with more berries, but there isn't precedent in the spell description for that and you would need either a party of 10 or have some minions/hirelings to make use of all berries in one turn, which is pretty unlikely.

[@Three_Tiny_Robots]

So my "make the Barbarian heal like Wolverine with Regenerate" trick probably won't work either 😥

[@matthewlaird5235]

Also if you have a DM that refuses to have his enemies attack you duplicate and they just somehow know witch one is witch and they only swarm you, just switch place with your duplicate as a bonus action.

[@ltcaphide]

reminds me of this really common but bad faith reading of the feature on the 2014 version where they just assumed that it could be insight checked like any illusion spell when that wasn't provided by the text. idk why "this unique ability that only this subclass gets that doesn't provide a clause that people can tell it's fake based on a check should be directly compared to a spell most classes can get earlier than this" obviously im not saying that enemies should be stupid and always think it's real but there are ways to counter play it without immediately shutting it down

[@M_M_ODonnell]

It's not spelled out in the rules, but a reasonable approach might be to make a quick judgment based on enemy/NPC intelligence, familiarity with illusions, and whether something has made it very obvious that the duplicate is non-corporeal. Maybe the first bandit runs the duplicate through, then shouts to the others that it's a fake...with maybe an Investigation or Perception check to recognize if the cleric has swapped places with the duplicate (because I'd really want to reward cleverly-timed use of that ability). A seasoned adventurer or a caster with a penchant for illusions might make the check to notice the duplicate's an illusion in the first place, with advantage if they can also see the PC (or just not require a roll if they've done something to make it very obvious) Making it make sense does require more careful GMing than a system where all the mechanical consequences are detailed; D&D really is at times a compromise between the super-flexible (which also means more non-dice non-mechanics work for GM and players) rules-light storytelling-first systems and the more mechanically fleshed-out tactical systems

[@jaysw9585]

​@@ltcaphidedoesn't matter. The mob will have to sacrifice an entire round to decern the illusion. That's a big advantage to the party.

[@jaysw9585]

​@@M_M_ODonnellit takes a full action to disbelieve an illusion so just causing the mobs to lose an action is still a big advantage

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@jaysw9585 It's "the mechanics are there to help the story" vs "the story is icing on the mechanics" play

[@michaellawyer4885]

I've played a 1-20 War cleric using the 2014 rules, and the 2024 updates are amazing and remove the bumpiness. Personally I'd rate it an A. If I had the 2024 rules, Id never run out of War Priest Bonus Action attacks as my Wis modifier was 3+ and that's how long fights last, and I generally prepped with Spiritual weapon and either shield of faith or spirit guardians before combat starts.

[@jeffdybdal656]

How are you swallowing the spiritual weapon is a concentration spell pill?

[@michaellawyer4885]

@@jeffdybdal656 Spiritual Weapon doesn't require concentration though for War Domain clerics, that's what's cool about the 2024 revisions. Add Shield of Faith without concentration as well and you're golden.

[@mcsherman18]

6:32 Preserve life can't restore hit points past half a characters hitpoint max correct? Makes this ability much more niche, you would use it when a few party members are really low.

[@aidandunne5978]

I think that was changed for the 2024 rules

[@qualitytikoyproductions]

@@aidandunne5978 It was not. PHB 2024 still says Preserve Life cannot restore HP beyond half. The guys messed up

[@odinulveson9101]

Tempest for me aall the way! Thunder and lightning for the wicked there will be smiting!

[@valerius88]

galileo!

[@TigerW0lf]

Very, very frightening

[@jeffdybdal656]

Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango?

[@bouidge]

I see a little silhouetto of a man 😮

[@Jekrane]

Im so angry they included TRICKERY instead of Tempest in the new PHB… I like Trickery, but I wish they had put the POWER OF ZEUS in the new phb instead…

[@MrsAjergirl]

47:43 Thanks for the little poem Kelly! "But if I had to rank them, one through 4, It goes; Trickery, Light, Life, War."

[@shaneconnolly4747]

37:21 the feature says the spell ends if you cast it again, so no putting Shield of Faith on multiple party members with this.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

With the possible exception of if you cast it first with a spell slot, then with War God's Blessing (with only the first one requiring concentration, and only the second ending if you cast it again)...though a table-ruling that this is also not allowed probably wouldn't shock anyone

[@saintpaulsnail]

I'm part of a 4-person party playing Curse of Strahd. Originally, we had a paladin, fighter, druid, and rogue. Healing was being provided primarily by the druid. After having the druid go down, and the paladin out of position, we realized we needed a cleric. By chance, my ability scores as a fighter were high because of good rolls, and I took a 13 in wisdom for a perception boost. When we leveled up from first to second level, I took a level in Life domain (2014 rules). With a wisdom of 13, my spell save DC and spell attack bonus were going to be minimal. I picked Life domain because the spells I picked were buffs, so DC and attack bonus don't matter. My pick of Protection from Evil and Good were clutch because we had two members who were in two different solo fights with ghouls. The fact that the ghouls were fighting with disadvantage meant our party members survived. Not the typical reasons for choosing Life domain, but it's working for us.

[@Shive1337]

If you can't spiritual guardians with trickster, then you can't thunderwave, you can't do touch either, as you would have it originate from your real self. The same with guiding bolt and so on and so on. It either lets you have spells 'shootout'/emenate/originate or whatever from the duplicate or you cannot.

[@joeymarlin4031]

I agree. Other similar interactions casting spells through something they always specify which type of spells work (wildfire druid, find familar) this text just says spells are cast as though you were in the illusions space. I would argue since the wording of the duplicate now describes it as intangible where it previously did not use that wording...touch spells probably can't work. Touch spells are defined as needing to physically touch what the spell is affecting.

[@MinhDuong-lg7uk]

Invoke Duplicity mimics your movements. Therefore, if you Invoke Duplicity and give yourself invisibility, you would not be able to "snatch the McGuffin" without detection because your Duplicate would "act out" every step you make. Outside observers would not know exactly where you are, but they would be able to watch you climb a latter, walk across a ledge and jumping down to a lower area (with a good investigation roll).

[@jennyoutrageous]

Trickery Domain Cleric who has a day job as a Mime. So they put out the duplicate and steal something, and everyone outside just sees a mime preforming on the street

[@evanabney3659]

I mean, to be fair, this is assuming you're in a space where the motions required to move through it would be automatically obvious. If you NEED to climb a ladder to get to the McGuffin then yeah, sure, that would be a giveaway... but I'd argue that the large majority of combat environments most DMs run don't include very many features like that, so that's probably more of a niche exception than a general rule.

[@MinhDuong-lg7uk]

@@evanabney3659 My understanding of Invoke Duplicity is that the duplicate the cleric's movement, but doesn't actually move to a corresponding space. So if you climb a ladder, the duplicate would climb in place. If you pick someone's pocket, so would your duplicate - you would be revealing your technique.

[@MinhDuong-lg7uk]

@@jennyoutrageous Everyone would see your pick pocketing technique. The Duplicate copies whatever you do.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

So the player has an excuse to mime whatever their character is doing without looking too much like they're doing it? Sounds like a win for the table, at least...

[@brandontaylor3478]

They added "regains additional Hit Points on the turn you cast the spell." so Aura of Vitality only gets one extra bonus to healing

[@thesouthernfire2112]

Which is sad, I think. Let the Life Domain do Life.

[@morphinpink]

I play a Life cleric in a party with a druid and a bard and I'm afraid you're correct, I feel so useless and redundant a lot of the time 🥲 I love my character though so I don't want to change my build but. yeah. people say roles don't matter in 5e but the overlap in niches can leave people feeling excluded.

[@Jekrane]

How is your Cleric’s Con/Strength score? You could try taking Spirit Guardians and going with a melee cleric build- That way, you can heal yourself up when you take damage on the frontlines, while your other party members can focus on healing your other frontliners… I mean, at least your healing would go somewhere. I dunno, just a thought, I’ve never played a Cleric for a full campaign, so idk what its like

[@morphinpink]

@@Jekrane A melee build wouldn't work for my character unfortunately. I do have decent CON (15, planning to take Resilient and bump it to 16 at lvl 8) but STR is my dump stat since it doesn't make sense for the character to have high strength for many reasons, so I took the thaumaturge order when we recently updated to the 2024 rules. I already maxed out my WIS so I can do a little bit of blasting even if I'm not the most optimal blaster I can at least give people advantage with guiding bolt and prevent undead creatures from bouncing back with radiant damage. Genuinely I'm okay not being super OP or perfectly built. It just sucks to feel cornered in an suboptimal niche (healing) when other players can do the same and there's an expectation that's standby and do nothing but be a healbot. To be fair most of the other players are very nice and encourage me to do more blasting, it's just one player that complained about me not healing them once (we were separated and in different maps), called me a bad healer and it's been trying to one up me bc they're a druid and can cast the same healing spells so it's been weighing on me since then.

[@morphinpink]

@@Jekrane Thank you for the suggestion though! I recently gained access to spirit guardians and I'm planning to use it as much as I can.

[@nobodynamedmatlock]

If I was that druid or bard, I'd heal less and damage more knowing I had a life cleric backing me up. I'd take 1 healing spell just in case you went down, and the rest of my spells would be freedom to have more fun with my class. They aren't purposely building healers, are they?

[@morphinpink]

@@nobodynamedmatlock I don't think they are, bard definitely isn't but druid has the animal totem feature so they can heal quite a bit with it. Having a backup is good, I'm not saying I have ownership over healing spells obviously. But this player has called me a bad healer and one up-ed me whenever I heal someone so I have been feeling very redundant and like I have no place in the party. I deal with it because it's mostly just this one person but yeah.

[@AwesomeWookiee]

The temporary hit points from Light Cleric's level 6 feature is also a form of Multiattack defense. Very good design scaling.

[@Red13aron]

I'll say that my plan for playing a War Domain Cleric is to pair both Shillelagh and True Strike together. You can do this specifically with either Human or High Elf, I personally favor the Elf-style. Then you get through both Magic Initiate and Species access to 2 very important spells. Mixing these together means we can Action: True Strike, Bonus Action: Shillelagh Turn 1. After that we rely on War Priest for BA attacks with our new Shillelagh and cast True strike every turn. At level 6 it get's a little more interesting as now, not only do we have War Priest, but our main attack can instead be a non-concentration spiritual weapon. That means after turn 1 we always have damaging BA ability and with a combination of both we won't run out. The best part is that we can do all this and still Spiritual Guardians if we're need AOE. Probably not as strong as a Fireballing Light cleric but we've got attacks on par with our Fighters, and we could theoretically multiclass or take Weapon Mastery to add topple/slow to our Shillelagh attacks.

[@fortunatus1]

Do you really need both of those cantrips? Shillellagh already allows you to use Wisdom.

[@Red13aron]

@@fortunatus1 True you can just Shillelagh and thats a fine build. However, if you never plan to get Extra Attack from multiclassing and you want to be attacking with a weapon you might as well stack True Strike on that. Or use your action to cast leveled spells, which at that point why be a war cleric?

[@brojoe4919]

@@Red13aron Don't forget Booming Blade

[@joshsmith4886]

For War Domains, start as a Human Fighter. Take a background that gets Wizard or Druid Initiate, take the other with your human feat. You now get a Fighting Style, you have Weapon Masteries, a way to use Shillelagh and/or True Strike, Con saves, and Second Wind. Multiclass into Cleric. Take your next 8-10 levels in Cleric. Level 7 gets you a buff to all attacks, level 8 will let you max out Wisdom. 9-10 get you 5th level spells and Divine Intervention. Take 2nd level of Fighter for Action Surge. If you actually play past Level 12, I'd take 3 more levels of Fighter, get a subclass, Feat (GWM), and extra Attack. If you go to Level 20. 6 Levels of Fighter and 14 Levels of Cleric gets you 2 more Feats and Improved Divine Strike. I personally don't like Clerics, but I would 100% play this

[@joshsmith4886]

I also think Spiritual Weapon is a trap. +2 Defense and Bonus Action attacks Wisdom x per rest. Then keeping the +10 Attack in your back pocket is better.

[@Jimmy-p9n]

Me likee

[@joeymarlin4031]

Pages 75 and 76 in PHB24 describe the Trickery Domain Cleric. Invoke duplicity is described as mimicking your expressions and gestures. It does not say the duplicate does every motion or movement your character does. Think of Loki's duplicates - they all could be expressing and moving their bodies in different ways, but Loki's personality is shown in each clone. You could therefore hide and have the enemy think you are the duplicate as you command your duplicate to run around and you cast spells through the duplicate. Regarding casting spells through the duplicate - the PHB24 says you can cast spells as if you were in the duplicate's space but you use your own senses to cast them. With that wording, I feel spirit guardians would work with the duplicate. Spirit Guardians has a range of self with a 15ft emanation. So casting SG as if YOU were in the duplicate's space seems possible with rules as written. This would make the Trickery Domain S Tier IMO.

[@joeymarlin4031]

Also if the duplicate is intangible - then touch spells would not work. Touch is a sense - casting spells as though you were in the duplicate's space requires you to use your own senses. The only spells that would work would be ranged spells or self ranged spells.

[@Falconsjiujitsu]

Life is one of my favourites. They are particularly potent with someone else in the party dropping aura of vitality. I was in a 7th level all cleric party fighting an adult black dragon. After the 3rd round of keeping the party alive, (having narrowly survived 2 breathe weapon attacks) the dragon targeted me with all their attacks. Still standing with 1hp next round, I healed back to full between a potion and a spell, looked at the dragon and asked "is that all you got?". Epic.

[@jaredlocke4300]

Got the book today. I'm Jared, I'm a DM and I'm currently running the Curse of Strahd. The Social Interaction Example on pg 17 absolutely floored me

[@SamFinklestein]

Important note on True Strike: it will not help War Priest, since that is a weapon attack, and True Strike only allows you to use wisdom for the casting of the spell. Still, Magic Initiate (Druid) can give you both Shillelagh and Magic Stone to allow both a melee and a ranged wisdom-based weapon attack for the price of one feat. Then take Absorb Elements or something for the 1st level spell. In addition, something that might resolve the traffic jam: When you get to War God's Blessing, you have a way to focus War Priest in the few encounters where you don't use Spiritual Weapon, and you don't need to be concerned about running out of uses of either.

[@KamasiFitzgerald]

War Domain goes extremely hard if you go Human and pick up both MI: Wizard and MI: Druid. Getting Shillaleigh, Thorn Whip, Shield, and True Strike makes a War Cleric immediately viable from level 1, you can do your ability scores exactly the same as you would for a spellcasting cleric (14 dex). IMO it's an easy A+ with that setup. You could even start Fighter 1 for weapon masteries and Dueling on your club/quarterstaff.

[@rainbowcrash6990]

Kelly: its just fun to cast fireball... Me: at the barbarian and fighter!

[@Mordalon]

While the War Domain does have some of those issues, I feel there are two different ways to look at subclass abilities. Some subclasses work towards enhancing a particular playstyle and each new feature builds on that single direction, while others add more and more diversity that you may not be able to use all at once but allow for many different directions and solutions to problems. There are merits to both styles, it's just a matter if you want depth or breadth. I think of it like comparing a hammer to a swiss-army knife. One has a single job it's good at doing, while the other can do many jobs but not simultaneously.

[@DeadmanwalkingXI]

I think there's a really good, straightforward, War Domain built that isn't even super hard. Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 8 is perfectly straightforward. At that point, you use War God's Blessing for Shield of Faith, not Spiritual Weapon. This also allows Full Plate, which is pretty good. That gets you basically all of the abilities pretty easily most of the time. I think you guys got over-focused on Spiritual Weapon and didn't consider just...not relying on that particular option much at all. Honestly, as a Bonus Action attack you can make pretty regularly, War Priest combined with wanting to use Bonus Actions for other stuff like Healing Word makes Spiritual Weapon a little obsolete in melee if you either go Strength heavy or grab Shillelagh. Now, if you're engaging in ranged combat, that's when the Spiritual Weapon comes out and is quite good.

[@androlgenhald476]

Exactly! And then grab Great Weapon Master later for supplemental BA attacks opportunities and extra damage.

[@brojoe4919]

I think single class cleric just goes shillelagh and melee attacks with booming blade and BA attack while spirit guardians is up. Use all your CD for shield of faith.

[@sgc8536]

Ok so I play one of the war clerics, ported over from 5e, level 13 in a Theros campaign. The new one fixes a lot of problems that I had with the older one - including, you can now use war priest to use a BA after having cast a spell (instead of only after an attack action), which will allow you to get your divine strikes off. With the new 'all feats have an ASI' I do not feel like you struggle as badly with what to invest in, and the extra channel divinity you get really helps. Its actually to the point where I think spiritual weapon is a bit redundant, since you can BA weapon attack with a ranges weapon you draw as part of the attack. You can also be pretty confident in attacking as the BA, because if you miss and you really want it to hit, there you go. What is interesting is I feel it gives the war cleric more of a chance to use things like poisons, which if you're going for the more brutal vibe, is very nice, because you can have it applied to weapons you use as a bonus action. You can chew through the bosses Legendary resists. You get all your War Priest charges back on a short rest as well. Further, one of the potent high level options you can use, steel wind strike as a domain spell, you can make sure you hit who you need to with that spell with guided strike. Note - this will chew through your channel divinities like candy, but it absolutely clutched a desperate fight I was just in, allowing me to clean up the action economy like no tomorrow.

[@stanislausbohmearteaga4729]

8:23 I would argue a Life cleric in that situation would allow Bards to grab devastating magical secrets, druids full battle field control and Paladins full smites

[@carlosblack8690]

6 levels of trickery domain cleric and 14 levels of arcane trickester was one of the best things i played on 5E

[@dallinadams9422]

Guided Strike is still great for support with being able to add +10 to another character's attack, pretty much just turning anyone else's attacks into a hit.

[@Zagrakhen]

For the level 6 War Domain subclass feature "War God's Blessing", I think they should have change : _You can expend a use of your Channel Divinity to cast Shield of Faith or Spiritual Weapon rather than expending a spell slot. Without requiring Concentration, for up to 1 minute._ ↓ _You can cast Shield of Faith or Spiritual Weapon without requiring Concentration._ That I would allow on my table if someone really wants to play a pure War Domain Cleric.

[@Comicsluvr]

I believe that the Life Domain Cleric is something of a throwback to earlier days when healing felt more like a requirement. Now, we have so many choices to avoid damage, even within the Cleric class. A Twilight Cleric, with a party of 5, can generate more Temp HP than a Life Cleric can heal at the same level. Then there's increasing AC so damage just isn't taken.

[@donaldcrankshaw1627]

I tend to think the war domain's problem isn't really any different from the Paladin's, Valor Bard's, or Monk's problem, where you have two stats you need to buff. That's generally true for all gishes. I suspect that the solution is something similar.

[@Olochgu]

I think what would really help the War Domain would be getting access to the new True Strike. Cause that would eliminate their need to keep up with strength (except for their 5 bonus action attacks per day, woopdidoo) and add even more extra damage on top. I still don't think it's quite enough to make up for their lack of extra attack, but it would be a big boost.

[@jordanholt9170]

You could grab either True Strike or Shillelagh to use Wisdom for your attacks.

[@donaldcrankshaw1627]

That's one approach. Either make it single stat with a spell or class feature, or boost both stats. You can boost two stats all the way to 20 while taking one feat (plus an epic boon feat), or boost one to 20 and the other to 18 while keeping more feats open. Neither is exactly unviable. (In fact, getting two stats to 20 is probably optimal for Monks, and maybe Barbarians, given their capstones.)

[@logancuster8035]

@@jordanholt9170 or both! Humans or Elves can grab the ability to cast both of those Cantrips from level 1.

[@Klaital1]

The one thing War domain would need to be great weapon using cleric is having Searing Smite as one of it's domain spells. That spell is such a massive damage boost to a weapon using cleric that you pretty much have to take 1 level in paladin just to get that spell.

[@LoreFoundry]

Hello, thanks for the video. It has always been hard for me moving from one edition to another. With all the changes I just gotta embrace it and see what happens. Cleric is my favorite and I've played 8 of them so far. Only 3 of them were in year+ campaigns. For my first Cleric, ill be playing a Hermit Dhampir life Cleric. I think it will be a lot of fun.

[@SortKaffe]

As a *Trickery Cleric,* you can cast spells with a *range of self* through your *illusion.* E.g. take the *Magic action* to let your *illusion* make an attack with *True Strike* or have *Spirit Guardians* emanate from it for the duration of the spell, since *Invoke Duplicity* states that _"You can cast spells _*_as though you were in the illusion's space,"_* which is far more liberal than the wording of e.g. *Find Familiar* _"when you cast a spell with a _*_range of touch,_*_ your familiar can deliver the touch."_

[@Rikmatchek]

Nope. Just because you can cast as though you were in the space doesn’t mean the rules for self range spells changes. The emanation is not a thing which can be targeted with a self spell. It is not the caster. It is not even an object or creature to target. Self range spells target the caster only. The emanation is not the caster.

[@joeymarlin4031]

​@Rikmatchek you are targeting yourself, just as though you were in the illusions space. It's still emanating from you, just as though you were in the illusions space. It's not targeting illusion.

[@Rikmatchek]

@@joeymarlin4031 so if you’re targeting yourself…and the space you occupy is different than the space the illusion occupies…then the effect is coming from you and not the illusion. Just because you can cast a spell from the location of the illusion does not mean the illusion is the target or source of the spell.

[@joeymarlin4031]

@Rikmatchek still missing the point of the subclass feature and it's wording. Regarding the spell - you yourself is considered to be in the space of the illusion. It's still targeting you. It's still emanating from you, simply as though you were in the illusions space. How is this breaking the game? It's costing a channel divinity, a 3rd level spell and it's shortening the duration of SG from 10 minutes to 1 minute because that's how long the illusion lasts so that's how long you'd be considered in it's space after that the spell would fizzle/end.

[@luvetohate]

With trickery domain when attacking within 5 feet to get advantage you could run into that range together with your illusion. Have your illusion run away (provoking opportunity attack potentially) and then swap places with it to get out of melee range. ALSO! if they hit your illusion with an opportunity attack they'd assume the one left behind is the real one BUT you've swapped places at the end of the turn so they'll waste attacks on the illusion again XD

[@imprisonedagain9626]

I have 2014 War Domain Cleric in a 2+ year long campaign. He really liked the class themes but was put out by the limited bonk capabilities. So I changed the War Priest feature to use Wis in place of Str or Dex for attacks, and removed the limited number of uses. I also added some spice, they can use the ability after Casting an Offensive or Healing spell.

[@jamesmangiameli8337]

I have tremendous respect for the new 'S' tier being 'This may well be problematic. It may make the game less fun at the table for being too overpowered.' Props to you guys for voicing that so clearly, and indicating that 'A' is the best-written class! Agreed on the Life Domain Cleric being B-tier, though I'd call it a very high B+. Like you always say, it's useful in 'the right campaign'. In this case, I'd say the right campaign is if a GM has been playing D&D since at least the 90's. Rests weren't guaranteed then. If you were in, say, a drow fortress, or an enemy stronghold, the GM wouldn't let you get in a rest. There are times where you might have a few minutes here and there, but not an hour, and definitely not 8. So, this is to me, where the life domain cleric shines: Between-combat healing, if resting isn't guaranteed. Also agreed that WotC kind of trapped themselves with the Life Domain spell list. The subclass logically focuses on healing. And the best healing spells, are cleric spells. There's really no practical way for the Life domain cleric to have spells that weren't on the cleric spell list, because it wouldn't make sense to create a very good healing spell, and then not put it on the cleric class list. Ah well. I'm surprised the War Domain cleric didn't wind up in the 'C' tier rating. All their abilities are really cool, agreed. However, there's two separate, but surprisingly not mutually exclusive, problems, as you said: Their best abilities can't be used together. But also, their best abilities rely on the same pools. Thus, the War Domain Cleric is in danger of running itself out of its cool subclass powers, at which point you'll be left with the base class. That actually makes me think of the Eldritch Knight vs. the Champion. (Putting it here instead of the Fighter video, simply because it's the same train of thought). I was surprised the Champion didn't do a smidge higher, and the Eldritch Knight a smidge lower, for similar reasons. The Eldritch Knight has great powers. But you have to know what you're doing--there's some forgiveness in spell picks, but not total forgiveness. Taking pure blaster spells fits the concept perfectly, but isn't an optimal pick. It's possible to goof yourself up with spell picks, though not necessarily hugely probable. Likewise, they have very limited resources. The Eldritch Knight is one unexpected fight away from just being a baseline fighter. On the flipside, I'm surprised the Champion didn't get a bit more love. I sometimes think their problem is just that it's a kind of boring class. However, I do think its abilities are under-rated. An Eldritch Knight isn't going to be casting spells all the time. A Champion, however, is probably going to be attacking all the time. Every single attack has an increased crit chance. Every round, you have the opportunity to just decide not to fail with a re-roll. The Champion's abilities, augment the base class even more, and you get to bring it to bear every round. I'd argue champion would therefore be a smidge higher, when we take the "Yeah, but the flavor is really dull" factor out. That's interesting, there's a couple different possible ways something can be dragged down the ratings -Competing resources -Adds too little to the class. -Conflicts with base class -Too easy to be reduced to just the base class until a long rest. Keep the videos up! I love watching you guys' takes ever since I discovered your channel in Spring of 2022. Proud owner of both Drakenheim books and soon to be the third as well!

[@daveolson9982]

I'm currently playing a War Domain Cleric with 2014 rules, so the 5.24 rules seem like an improvement. I agree that there's kind of a bottleneck with this subclass' bonus action. I think a small change that would make the subclass much better would be a slight change to War Priest (or whatever it's called in 5.24). When you us the ability (free action), you gain the extra attack ability for that round. If you already have the extra attack ability, you can use it as currently written. This would also mean that if you wanted to expend two uses in one round, you could make three attacks. Another recommendation would be recovering the uses after a short rest. I think this would make the subclass seem a lot more impactful in combat. Currently in battle I just use up war priest first, and then switch to casting spiritual weapon to keep getting 2 attacks per round. The 2014 War domain cleric is ok, but light domain seems so much better.

[@DiscipleofBob]

My chief reasoning for playing a 2014 War Cleric was access to all martial weapons and heavy armor whereas most cleric subclasses would give you only one or the other. Now that proficiencies aren't tied to subclasses, there seems to be less reason to play a War Cleric when something like Light would give your warrior-priest Warding Flare and Fireball.

[@MoraqVos]

The 2014 War Cleric was really bad, and Tempest and Twilight also had martial weapons and heavy armor. I think they should have given the War Cleric extra attack, or a free/bonus action weapon attack when you cast a leveled spell.

[@nathanrichter3317]

The base Cleric on 2024 gets a choice of more spell focus and keeping your base medium armour and simple weapons proficiency or being a more martial focused cleric with martial weapons and heavy weapon proficiency.

[@markwarden458]

"Cooking with gas" never gets old from Monty!

[@5-Volt]

I think the new Light Cleric is bonkers good. One "issue" I had with Warding Flare is that I wish you could use it after the roll (like in BG3) & have infinite uses (also like BG3) but they resolved these issues in an interesting way. Getting uses back on a short rest solved the infinite uses thing & gaining temp HP makes having to use it before the roll SO much better. I love support casters & a spell I've always wanted in D&D is a reaction that gave temp HP when being hit. They basically baked that into Warding Flare. Amazing!

[@jacobmoll2878]

I said this before, but if you have a new player that wants to play a cleric... life. The domain spells will make sure they have what they need when the party needs it, patched up time. They can play around choosing other spells that may be not so good without damaging that healing aspect. (2014edition) I played with a new party that had a sorcerer and two rangers that were all squishy and no healing from the rangers. I was playing a tempest cleric but with years experience, the only truly experienced player in group. If I also had been a new player, likely would not have had the healing needed at times. I needed the heavy armor, I needed the healing, and needed some damage output (as the sorcerer wasn't particularly well put together ) cleric was my obvious solution and life would have been my suggestion to a new player in that position. That cleric was a force multiplier and I think even for myself I could have done just as well with life. Also even in a party with a paladin, they aren't always played well especially with healing, a bard, they may not want the healing restoration spells, druid may be busy being an animal or providing battlefield control etc etc . I also found it funny that you point out the area effect spells that the healer cannot keep up with but also poo poo the mass healing spells and the mass cure wounds would be +7 to each target. Hmmm Love almost all your content but I feel you and Treantmonk sleep on the life domain. These guys can still throw spirit guardians etc. Just my two coppers.

[@Three_Tiny_Robots]

I'm playing a Life Domain Cleric in a Vecna: Eve of Ruin campaign with a VERY melee focused party and I'm glad to say that he's done his job of keeping the party on their feet- and saved their lives- on multiple occasions 😄

[@kalanivernon7273]

Regarding Disciple of Life: if you upcast a spell, it counts as a spell of that level for all purposes including this feature. Eg. If you cast a 3rd level “cure wounds” it won’t heal +3Hp, it will heal +5. Regarding War Priest: I think a balanced way of keeping the spirit of the 2014 feature intact would be to grant an additional attack as part of the attack action wis uses per rest. And to avoid broken combos, add a conditional: “This stacks with additional attacks from the extra attack feature, but does not stack with additional attacks from spells or other features such as by attacking with a nick weapon”

[@kalanivernon7273]

Personally, I am going to houserule some changes to war cleric to make it feel more like intended: Warpriest: You gain weapon mastery with a single simple or martial weapon of your choice. In addition, when you take the attack action, you can add your wisdom modifier to the attack roll of one attack per turn (no action), in addition to your Strength, or Dexterity modifier. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier, and regain all uses on a short or long rest. Eyeballing it, this doesn’t feel broken but I would want to test it. It certainly isn’t as powerful as the class feature that lets you covert a failed d20 test into a success once per turn without limits (I forget which class/subclass or level). As to 6th level, I want to resolve the decision paralysis around the channel divinity. So I will give them extra attack and the following secondary benefit (a greatly nerfed version of the printed feature to make it more of a ribbon). 6th: Spiritual weapon no longer requires concentration, and you can cast it once per day without expending a spell slot.

[@RokuroCarisu]

My favorite subclass currently is the Death Cleric. The changes to Chill Touch were a significant buff to it. No longer does it have to rely on Inflict Wounds to use its features! And by the way; if you want Extra Attack on a War Cleric, best take 5 levels in Ranger as soon as possible. It lets you pick up a a few nice attack spells that run on Wisdom along the way. With Paladin, you would need bump up Charisma, and Fighter would add nothing to your spellcasting unless you pick Eldritch Knight, which is Intelligence-based. Only the Ranger has both martial and casting synergy with the Cleric.

[@nathangomez4409]

I played a war domain cleric/gloomstalker ranger with a longbow back with the 2014 rules. It fuckin shredded. I can concede that war domain is a bit lackluster but there's absolutely some really fun things you can do with it.

[@LadyAhro]

Admittedly it could be because of my partner’s campaigns being a Homebrew one, and various scenarios just work but my Grave Domain cleric always feels invaluable as a healer or as a regular caster. Plus it’s just fun to play a gothic Nun, with mine being Raven Queen aligned and profoundly devout to her goddess, since this Raven Queen is the goddess of peaceful death, healing and destroying undead. The Shadowfell is entirely hers. As are the Shadar Kai.

[@BrentDnD]

At 19:05 Corona of Light for the Light Cleric is so clutch since many of your enemies at that level will have legendary resistances and this could be a good way to burn through them.

[@angelocano6041]

i really enjoy listening to these rankings, even though i usually disagree with about half the rankings. its very indicative of how subjective any set of rankings can be, as once own general playstyle preferences cant help but influence it. for instance, at most of the tables i play, trickery would never rank over war, and in the wizards, evocation would dominate over illusion. still, its great to hear how other people see the game. (I'm still salty about your first time ranking the Swords Bard - lol)

[@mtuktuk9627]

i like the war cleric...it might not be synergistic as you said but it gives me a choice on what i spend stuff on....i prefer choices over the what has become mostly streamlined classes with a clear option to do all the time

[@jamesfoster9613]

It's important to known that Life domain's Disciple of Life feature has been changed to only apply on the TURN you cast the spell, so goodberry and aura of vitality aren't really useful for that, but Mass healing powers REALLY get the benefit now, as it applies to everyone you're healing.

[@androlgenhald476]

For War Domain, a good way to go is to grab Great Weapon Master. It will give you additional opportunities to get BA attacks. That should be enough to let you get BA attacks on most turns.

[@Ox9707]

I think War Cleric would be a good multiclass for a lvl 5 Ranger. More spell slots, bonus action weapon attacks, and strong concentration and support spells would compliment them well. They probably combine better than as single classes

[@dalehitesman2608]

Cure Wounds (etc.) can be cast at higher levels for greater effect; thereby increasing the amount of the bonus heal.

[@TheWanderersWit]

One of the big benefits of Confusion is that it's neither a Charm nor Fear based control spell. That lets it be more reliable when you go up against enemies that are immune to one or both of those.

[@pogodonuts]

To talk through your duplicate you could pick up Minor Illusion and cast it through it, then use the sound option.

[@dallinadams9422]

war domain multiclassed with oath of vengeance would be fun. Would be fun to be able to cast shield of faith and haste on yourself and all in one turn. That is a +4 for AC then you could probably grab defensive dueler for an even further buff on AC. Would take a while in levels to get both online, but would be pretty crazy.

[@Klaital1]

Personally I can't wait to get to play the new trickery cleric, the amount of shenannigans you can get to with invove duplicity and all those domain spells is on the next level. Only thing I wish is that you would be able to use the duplicates senses and speak through it, but I guess those are both solvable issues. Minor Illusion lets you speak through it, and you can just stay nearby invisible to cover the senses.

[@trombaritone86]

Playing a Light Domain Cleric now. I took it for fireball, which I finally got to cast last session, and I promptly rolled 5 ones. I've done more damage with basically every other spell I've ever cast (except spiritual weapon. that always misses for me).

[@pniki16]

I'm against the whole "if you don't use this feature, you didn't get a feature" attitude. you got one. It's your choice whether you use it or not but you did get it.

[@rodneygriffin7666]

In a War, The Life Cleric is indispensable. Nice to have a doctor reliable in combat. Again, Life Domain Clerics can know and prepare more, having all healing spells on lock. Flame Strike is ready to be prepared instead of having to choose between the two. Free Healing Spells are Awesome!

[@alejandrovelazquez5134]

I'm new in D&D and I love these explanations of the dungeon dudes ❤ in fact, I have a lot of hype now

[@PDKFitness]

My first character was a War domain cleric. I remember playing the class as thinking, “If this class got extra attack, I think it'd perfectly balance the bonus action problem” Still think that. Even with 2024 rules.

[@gassimo16]

multiclass between war cleric 6 and eldritch knight 8 you will have a lot of ac, spirit guardians for area damage and control absorb elements for damage reduction a war hammer for booming blade and pushing enemies while inside spirit guardians, forcing them to take secondary damage and damage from the guardian spirits +10 to hit with thunder blade extra attack on bonus action cons save +2 ac because of the cleric's level 6 (all a tank wants). magic weapon to increase damage and hit (good for hitting with booming blade) i think this is a hidden synergy. the rest of the levels are up to whoever wants to test it

[@kaeles3548]

I think giving the war domain the true strike cantrip instead of the bonusaction attack would have been good. You can attack with wisdom as an action, give temp hp with the lvl 7 feature on a hit and attack with spiritual weapon as a bonusaction.

[@hallopino]

Looking at War Domain, I'm getting the feeling it's built to accomodate either melee or spell casting. Not expecting the player to use all of the spells and abilities, but just the ones that work for their build.

[@ThreeOttersInATrenchcoat]

Light and Tempest have always been my favorites, but I think the one I'm most excited to see updated for 2024 is the Knowledge Domain!

[@soccerdude2202]

With war domain you're missing out on what you would use the war priest for. The bonus action attack is to allow you to attack and cast a spell, you can throw out a control spell or healing spell while also attacking with using your blessed strikes bonus. Imagine casting hold person/ monster on the big threat and attacking with advantage and auto critting on a hit on the same turn.

[@andrewmiddlemas]

I feel like a "B" for life cleric, as a generalist, is appropriate. As you said, your party comp REALLY dictates the power of a life cleric. I find their best results are warding bond to a fighter/monk/paladin in the front line and your heals keeping up with resist, and the self heal you get keeps you in the fight for a lot longer as well.

[@Ashley1Black]

I like that Trickery offers many options for creative play, but all I can think about is whether I want to follow the Sacred Flame or the Fallen Fire with the Light Domain (throwing a fireball on a bunch of paladins would be a funny reference).

[@chrisward9521]

I haven’t played a cleric in a minute but thanks to the 2024 rules I remember why I love them

[@Albuquerque.c.f]

awesome video! it enlightened me to a possible fix to the war domain. If i would DM a trable with a war domain cleric, i think i would swap the lv 3 and 6 features and then give it a second attak at lv 6 instead of the bomus action. Actually, i think i would strip his gided strike and give one weapon mastery to the poor dude.... i don`t know if this woud be balanced tho.

[@armphidiic2609]

The thing for me with the Life Domain is that their spell list has a lot of things I would want to have prepared anyway, which makes their soell list a bit better than it's given credit for.

[@Ghost8935]

I keep feeling like Joe should stick his head in the frame when you were talking about the trickery cleric to say, “You talking ‘bout me?”

[@SuperSorcerer]

I think the buff to the cure wounds really improve life domain. If life domain was decent in 2014, he is really good in 2024 now when his iconic spell almost doubled its healing.

[@majinsole8554]

Love how these Tier Rankings are showing just how balanced things have become with the subclasses. Love it or hate it, 5.24e has seemingly made play more fair and balanced no matter what you want to play. ~_~

[@TrapTrixDM]

I think Life Domain needs a BG3 treatment, where gathering items that do extra effects when you heal. Like when you heal, you give the party blade ward and bless.

[@glenngoodman2296]

Correction on Life Cleric Preserve Life. It can never be used to bring a character up to full. It can only bring a character back up to half HP. But as a Magic Action that does not use a spell slot to heal, it can be followed up with a Bonus Action Mass Healing Word. That combo turns an imminent TPK into a nvm, we’re fine. That’s why the Mass Healing Word is always prepared. So Life Domain can do a Nova Healing round.

[@jaredpmoser]

Well done boys. Best vid description yet. Love the layout description and design

[@adamwatson9272]

In 2014, Invoke Duplicity was concentration so you couldn't use any of your best spells with it. Thankfully they fixed this and you no longer have to concentrate on ID.

[@ArcaneAnthems]

Kelly rocking the Yaniir shirt! ❤️ Great vid!

[@varirinoa8509]

I think the life domain cleric is just the version of the cleric that needs to exist because there is demand for a dedicated an unmatched healing character. It’s a fantasy and needs to be provided by some class, and life domain is the one taking the job, albeit being not as potent as many other options.

[@d-risky4994]

War Priest: you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action so long as you have more cleric levels than other classes That prevents a 3 level dip for a powerful feature which is probably what they are balancing for

[@nickmillar999]

As a life cleric’s DM I have to wholeheartedly agree that their presence makes my encounter “balance” very fun

[@elinamauno8833]

In the process of setting up a new campaign using 2024 PHB as base rules for character creation and spells. Really honestly not sure which way to go with my character. Thought initially crit fishing Half Orc Beastmaster with Piercer… but the removal of the ignoring of difficult Terrain and the orc not getting the extra crit die… Probably going with something different. Looking at Arcane Trickster Rogue, Trickery Cleric, Draconic Sorcerer or Illusionist Wizard

[@Shimontr]

issue with wording flair is also in online play. you don't know when an attack comes most of the time. or if a DM holding back, or who his aiming at. that's why i never liked before the roll reaction stuff. most of those should stay at after it's declared imo.

[@tsriel]

I'd also like to point out that all those healing spells (cure wounds and healing word) got an extra die. Healing overall got buffed. Personally, I find that a little strange much how this video explains that prevention often does alot more than pure healing can. I'm not complaining though.

[@tim.stephens]

I would value seeing rankings include how your subclass enables your class abilities. The video mentions how Life Cleric domain spells are all from Cleric spell list; what can a Life Cleric do wielding a larger set of cleric spells that other clerics can not? Light Cleric domain spells are on Wizard spell list; which cleric spells must a Light Cleric take?

[@jaysw9585]

One of the things you missed that you need a 15 strength to even take advantage of the heavy armor proficiency. That splits your stats.

[@LunarSniperWifle]

Ive always loved the battle mage, and ive been torn about Eldritch knights, paladins/sorcadins, and clerics. But looking at light domain, i think that could be fun. You get those fire spells, warding flare can be great when youre up in the front too, you miss out on the bonus action attack but you may be using your bonus action for other acts. And though yall werent looking at multi classing, thinking about getting maybe 6 fighter and 14 Cleric as a base idea for that extra attack, extra ASI from fighter 6, and then primarily cleric could be fun? Im definitely excited to see more about 2024 D&D. Edit: Haha right after I talk about the fighter multi yall talk about it too with fighter, but with war domain. It would be a lot of fun with multi, though Im still thinking about light.

[@aitoriri1]

Light domain cleric might be my favourite class to play and love to see is just as good

[@mariop8852]

Damn, I didn't realize how limited war domain was because I didn't notice the overlapping action/resource requirements.

[@dallinadams9422]

War Priest isn't that bad, if you aren't using the spiritual weapon, you can still use your bonus action attack without using your action attack, so you could make a big strike with guiding bolt, insure it hits with guided strike, and then follow up with the war priest attack that is benefited from divine strike. Although, spiritual weapon was buffed in that it upcasts better, so it might be worth it to use the concentration on that. Can never go wrong with a free use of Shield of Faith though

[@KnicKnac]

A gnome trickery cleric is on my list to try in the 2024 rules. Just because it just feels right.

[@christopherroebuck5344]

I think the War Priest should be looked at a little bit differently. Yes you have multiple features fighting for your bonus action. I prefer to look at the features of getting mileage out of them. in a combat heavy campaign maybe you don't want to blow through all your uses of channel divinity allowing you to use your bonus action attack instead.

[@Lizardman567]

On the Trickery cleric and casting spells using the illusion as your point of origin, contagion got a buff. I really want to use this...

[@Fishbiene]

One subtle buff for the light domain is that daylight now creates sunlight, so if you're a light cleric and you are attacked by a horde of vampires, you just instantly win