Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Overview (D&D 4e)

Tonight, I attempt to provide a comprehensive overview and review of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, many of its most popular supplements, its iconic settings, and suggestions for who might want to run D&D 4th Edition instead of a more recent edition of D&D.
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[@rawhead3752]

I loved 4th ed because it encouraged teamwork. 3.5 invited a lot of players in our group to be the supercharacters with a level in this class, a level in that class, 3 levels here, 2 levels there. Characters with several prestige classes.

[@DungeonMusings]

The clearly delineated team roles is definitely one of my favorite parts of 4e.

[@rrupt]

I'll just say this: in 4th, the feeling of being part of a team that works like clockwork against monsters is unrivaled. It is by far the most rewarding combat experience I’ve had (I played every edition since adnd).

[@DungeonMusings]

100% agree about 4e giving the best feeling of being part of a team of all the editions. :)

[@deadmeme8011]

I remember one of the first solo fights I fought in, I was playing an invoker with a crap ton of stun abilities at a super low level. Ended up completely crippling a white dragon while the sorcerer melted his face off and the rogue stabbed him in the kidneys. Managed to end the fight without anyone taking damage, and convinced the entire group that all solo creatures have bands of minion tagalongs from then out.

[@danthegamerkhan]

So i came in with 4e about the essentials era. Played in encounters organised store stuff. Loved it. Ran a 4 year campaign. My players refused to go to 5e and wanted to stay. I like you are being fair and pointing out how many 4e influences made it to 5e

[@markdiffendal4202]

This is, by far, my favorite edition to both DM and run as a player. The ease of which it takes to come up with a specific DCs, ad hoc things, and go on the fly is just one of it's many values. As a player, I felt that I could have a significant difference even when playing the same class. A dwarven fighter that uses a Warhammer is going to have different methods, feats, exploits, and concepts than say...an elf Fighter with Two-Weapons or a bugbear spear and shield warrior. It's also an Edition where you .more easily explore concepts like monsters without significant nerfing or overly complicated tables, templates, and level adjustments. Want to be a Vampire? Play the vampire class, or take the Vampiric Heritage feats, or maybe just have some vampire remnants in your blood with the Vyrloka race. I remember having a human Berserker with the Pack Outcast theme that showed him he was a werebear when he went all Primal. At 1st level AND wasn't broken.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks is great to hear, Mark, I am thrilled to hear from another fan of 4e. :) And I totally agree with you that 4e did a fantastic job of letting you play wild and exciting concepts right from the get-go. It may be the only edition of D&D that lets you feel like a competent hero, and not just a semi-competent "newb" starting at 1st level (at least, "official" D&D...PF2 lets you feel like more of a badass at first level).

[@Tom-ep5ql]

Fuugvyaaaaaaaa

[@angerworm]

"Tactical spotlight" is a great way of putting what 4e combat offered that other editions don't. The layered tactics you could employ as you gained party cohesion between manipulating initiative, board position, and laying down auras and status effects gave 4e the true feeling of a seasoned *party* coordinating to overcome obstacles. My favorite edition. Thanks for giving it a fair and thorough review!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Jarrod, glad that you enjoyed the 4e overview!

[@archamandite]

Love the way you gave 4th edition its due in as unbiased of a way as possible. I recently joined a group that's going to be running 4e, and you've rekindled my excitement for the game after hearing so much hate against it.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Jared! Hope you have a blast with your 4e game.

[@stephengilbert8166]

Just wanted to make a shout out and say, this is (in my opinion) THE most informed, informative, and interesting video I have ever seen on 4th edition.. Massively appreciative of it, and enjoy the length of the whole thing. Thank you for sharing :-)

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Stephen, I am thrilled to hear that you enjoyed my overview. :)

[@cameronorwin]

It was my favorite edition also.

[@DungeonMusings]

Glad to hear from a fellow 4e fan. :)

[@The-0ni]

Very late to the party but “Reavers of the Harkenwold” is an amazing sandbox campaign that starts at lvl 1 and is hidden inside the essentials line Dungeon Masters Kit, which came with maps, monster tokens, and a DMs screen and is a great starting point to try 4th edition.

[@DungeonMusings]

That is such a cool campaign. I have only run bits and pieces of it, but one of our players is running the whole thing for his home group and they are all having a blast.

[@freddaniel5099]

Thanks for making this in-depth overview vid. Nobody does this sort of content better! Listening to this has been a Fun way to spend Christmas Eve.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Fred, I really appreciate it. :)

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

4e is my favorite edition of D&D and one of my all time favorite rpgs period. You're overview is the most fair and honest I've ever seen, which is really nice to see. 4e Essentials is probably my least favorite edition of 4e because of how drastically different it is compared to 4e Core, and how much of a middle finger Essentials gave to those who liked 4e Core.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, ID, I am glad to hear that you found the overview helpful. :)

[@Jabberwokee]

4e is my favourite edition because it refined combat in such a way that it actually gave you waaay more options and variations about how you fight. I always found the “save or die” mechanics of every other editions (including 5th) the absolute antithesis of a heroic role-play game - starting in 3rd edition really cemented on my mind just how unbalances the whole game was (all other versions but 4th), and I appreciated the shift towards fairer play for all players.

[@DungeonMusings]

I completely agree that 4e does a terrific job of shaving off the harsher edges of earlier editions, which is great for that heroic style of play. I still like playing with those harsh edges for some campaigns, but that's just a matter of finding the right tool for the right job, and 4e is a terrific tool for that style of heroic play you describe.

[@joshuakanapkey6570]

And... a couple years later... Very nice breakdown of 4e. Really appreciate the effort and time you put imto this. I skipped 4e at the time because I had tons of *ALL* editions leading up to it and was particularly enjoying 3.x. Everything I heard and saw led me to believe 4e was very "video-game"-ish, and that was unappealing. Anyway, long story short, I've been in on 5e for a few years, and the recent kerfuffle and lead-in to OneD&D (or 5.5, or whatever the hex they're gonna call it), in addition to my own play experience has led me to consider augmenting some 5e stuff with 4e ideas. Then, magically, I receive the Player's Handbook and Arcane Powers books from a random monthly mailing I get, and now my "desire to know more" is intensifying, and I'm looking at all the things I'd missed in that edition. Oh, I just remembered the biggest reason I said "Nonono" to 4e: That garbage they did to Forgotten Realms. Ugh. Just... NO! Anyway, again... Thanks for this video. It really helps me know what I want to look for and into in my current thought-processes.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Joshua, glad to hear that you found it helpful!

[@ronhorne4561]

If the VTT that was designed to go along with 4th edition had actually been produced and released, I think it would have been ahead of it's time and better paved the way for programs like roll20 and Foundry. As tech evolves so do our games. I wouldn't be surprised if the future of D&D looked more like 4e.

[@Nezzeraj]

Very entertaining! I was not a fan of 4e when it first came and quit playing it after about a month. But after a decade and with the boom of virtual table tops that make combat much easier, I'm looking forward to giving 4e a second chance. Also, I'd love a video of you talking about games you don't like.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Nezzeraj, I am glad that you enjoyed the video! I have only run a handful of 4e sessions online and have found it a LOT easier and faster than when I ran the game in person. As for games I do not like, there is already so much negative content online, and I have so many games that I love (more than I will ever have time to review), that I prefer to focus on games I like, that I think other folks would enjoy too, when doing my overviews, rather than complaining about RPGs that I don't.

[@GrahamSpearing]

Thanks for another amazing over view Kev, great stuff. I'm just getting into 4th Ed, a bit late in the day, enjoying 13th Age, PF2e and playing in 5e. Acknowledging the maths shift, and finding some great resources online that provide errata, Q&A, and the core fixed formulae for Monsters' game values by level and role, I *think* I can mindfully apply them to earlier books and just mix and match stuff as I like. Emphasising the fun works for me!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Graham, they are greatly appreciated and I am thrilled to hear that you are exploring 4e yourself, for the first time. I think it will be really interesting to see how your first impressions of 4e will differ in 2020 (with the ubiquitous access to virtual tabletops and other tools for online or computer-assisted play) from those who were playing when the game first came out and were forced to use miniatures and battle maps to run their combat encounters.

[@CafeCreativeYT]

These comprehensive reviews are such a treat for me. I listened to all of the pf2e video and ran a game to great success. Your explanation of a game front to back you can't find elsewhere on KZbin.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks very much for the kind words, Ben, I'm thrilled to hear you found it helpful. :)

[@francescobarbaro7575]

One of the best video on KZbin! Thanks!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Fracesco! :)

[@savethefunk]

Once again a thoroughly fascinating overview, like all your other top-notch videos. I never played 4e but I really really wish the game had been more successful because I really want to play it badly now, it seems like it would have been right up my alley. A bit of a heartbreak really to see how expensive and difficult it is to get hold of hard copies, especially outside the US.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Save, they are greatly appreciated :) I hear you about the cost of 4e books too. I hope that WotC releases PoD versions of the three core books for 4e through DM's Guild in 2021.

[@Mandroo]

I really appreciated this video, thank you. I still have all my 4E books and now I'm interested to find some of the ones you spoke of that I don't have. I've wanted to show some friends that never played 4E the system and I found that telling them this is the tabletop version of games like Fire Emblem, or other tactical video games got them really excited to check it out. I'm glad you touched on how good the monster manuals were. I think 5E could have been even better had 4E monster concepts been incorporated. I'm also glad you addressed the Illusion of Choice argument that has come up because I agree with you, sure everything is similar mechanically but it's the flavor that makes it different and interesting.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Mandroo! Glad you enjoyed the overview. :)

[@irAbyssion]

Seriously enjoyed watching this live and look forward to watching more streams later on, especially the ravenloft you got coming in the future.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Abyss, I am glad that you were able to make it for the live stream (and that you enjoyed it)! We will look forward to seeing you beyond the Mists, soon! :)

[@bromossunstarranger8706]

Merry Christmas to you and your family. thank you for making this in-depth analysis video on 4e this inspired me I'm going to watch your 4e camping for Christmas I've been watching the 2e and love it I've been designing my own D&D taking all the editions and the new fear Alien panic rules but use them in Ravenloft as Horror Checks and their madness for powers checks style the emphasis on fun and speed of play.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Bromos, I hope you holidays were great, as well! That's a great idea for adapting the Alien panic rules. I will have to take a look at them again before our upcoming Ravenloft one-shot (I will roll for Pick Pocketing that idea). :)

[@bromossunstarranger8706]

@@DungeonMusings When adding rules always talk to players ahead of time and when necessary retcon any serious imbalances. (Congratulations when adding new rules, the entire group has now advanced into Game designing and Play Testing) These Rules are still WIP inspired by Ravenloft, Aliens and Call of Cthulhu games. Finding ways to implement emotional rules without overriding player Role-playing is always difficult. These character emotion like rules are designed to encourage and enhance upon DMs and Players improvisations not to dampen or stifle imaginations. PANIC LEVEL (New Rules) An Adventurers life is a stressful but profitable one fighting monsters, traveling where no sensible people dare to go, pushing yourself through dangerous situations using unknown magical devices all of that and more builds up to Panic Levels but adventurers are also risk takers for the thrill of discovery, protecting the innocent whatever the drive adventurers push on sometimes further slipping into the ultimate, Madness. So many things cause even the most heroic to eventually question what they are doing and why. One example of such is when you PUSH a failed Skill die roll, your Panic Level immediately increases by one 1d6 Panic Die. Immediately mark this down on your character sheet before you re-roll your new Dice Pool 1d6 + 1d20 to try again. When rolling a d20 from then on include the total number of Panic Dice, equal to your current Panic Level. Yes this means the Panic Die could actually benefit you by increasing your chances to succeed at skills, attacks etc.. simulating the thrill of adventure. PANIC LEVELS: each individual d6 represents a Panic Level, also referred to as Panic Die, Panic Dice or Panic Dice Pool. PANIC DICE POOL: represents each Panic Die rolled together with your d20. PANIC DIE: 1d6 representing Panic, contributing in a positive or negative way your character’s actions. READING THE DIE POOL: when adding Panic Die roll results to your d20 roll, only results of (2+) are added to your d20 after all other modifiers including advantage or disadvantage are decided first. Simulating you are hyper-focused under pressure. However, if you roll a (1) on any of your d6 Panic Die during a d20 roll, you risk rolling a Panic Attack Save, if failed (see Panic Attack Result Chart below). PANIC ATTACK SAVES: roll a Constitution Save vs. Panic Attack Save DC. Panic Attack Saves can be the DC of the Skill Challenge, or if in combat the CR of the creature, the DM can always set a separate DC accordingly to the situation. The character rolls with disadvantage if damage was taken by a Critical attack or Spell, when deemed proper by the DM. If the Panic Roll was the result of a Skill, Save or an Action it is failed or cancelled immediately, replaced by the Panic Check Result even if the roll was successful. PANIC ATTACK SAVE TRIGGERS (Examples) The mounting tension in your character is measured by their PANIC LEVEL. It usually starts at zero, and increases during the course of the game. Your Panic Level can be triggered by many things in the world as your Panic Level increases by one, whenever one of the following guideline examples occur: • You Push a Skill Roll. • The Hit Dice of the monster total more than those of the entire party, disadvantage if twice as many hit points. • Monster can inflict enough damage in one round to kill the tank of the party. • Monster is immune to all of the party's weapons and spells. • You suffer a Critical hit. • You suffer 30% damage from character’s maximum hit points on a single attack. • You go without sleep, food, or water for one day. • A you suffer from extreme elements for 1 hour. • You encounter certain magics, creatures or locations as determined by the scenario or the GM. FAILED PANIC ATTACK RESULTS / Roll d20 (Examples) 1 - 8 KEEPING IT TOGETHER you manage to keep your nerves in check, barely. Remove one Panic Level. 8 - 12 THE CREEPS a strange twitching comes over you for one round. Make a Panic Save if you fail it, it causes a chain reaction of Panic Saves of all friendly PCs within 5ft of you, if failed their Panic Level increases by one. 13 TREMBLING you start to tremble uncontrollably. All Skill rolls using Dexterity are made with disadvantage for 1d6 rounds. Make a Panic Save if you fail it causes a chain reaction of Panic Saves for all friendly PCs within 10ft of you, if failed their Panic Level increases by one. 14 FREAKOUT Whether by stress, confusion or the realization that you all are going to die. You are Frightened for 1d6 rounds. Make a Panic Save if you fail, it causes a chain reaction of Panic Saves for all friendly PCs within 15ft of you, if failed their Panic Level increases by one. 15 FAINT by an overwhelming sense of doom or danger. You’re Incapacitated for 1d6 Rounds, causing a chain reaction of Panic Saves for all friendly PCs within 20ft of you, if passed their Panic Level is decreased for each round. 16 SEEK SAFETY you have an overwhelming sense of dying. You must use your next turn actions to move away from danger and find a safe place if possible. You are allowed to make a disengage roll, if you have an enemy at melee range. Make a Panic Save if you fail, it causes a chain reaction of Panic Saves for all friendly PCs within 25ft of you, if failed their Panic Level increases by one. 17 SCREAM You scream your lungs out for one Round to release stress, Your Panic Level is decreased to zero, but every friendly character who hears your scream must make an immediate Panic Check. DM roll a wandering monster or adjust the situation accordingly. 18 MORAL CHECK. You just can’t take it anymore. You feel doomed for 1d6 rounds you make all rolls with disadvantage, your Panic Level is increased by one each round. 19+ BERSERK MODE. Your mind cracks immediately attacking the nearest creature friendly or not, always attacking the enemy first when possible. You won’t stop for 1d6 Rounds, you lose one Panic Level each round. Every friendly character who witnesses you Berserking must make an immediate Panic Roll. RELIEVING STRESS Short Rest spent in a safe area that is secured from enemies (as far as you know), your PANIC LEVEL is reduced spending your hit dice. if your rest is interrupted, it doesn’t count, according to the situation the DM may roll for wandering monster or an environmental hazard. A PANIC LEVEL can also be decrease by certain magics or rituals. Once per game session, you can interact with your signature Trinket in some way to reduce your PANIC LEVEL by one. This requires a full-round of action if in combat. Conditions, such as Magics, Poisoned, Exhaustion or extreme Environmental elements and hazards those can block your ability to relieve stress. NPCs VS. PANIC It’s up to the DM how or if ever NPCs make Panic Rolls-instead, NPCs panic when the GM deems it appropriate. Panicking NPCs may increase the STRESS LEVEL of PCs nearby. This is up to the GM's judgement. PUSHING DICE ROLLS (Optional Rules) Adventures are intuitive risk takers, represented by Pushing the limits of their Skills. Pushing Dice Rolls, is only allowed when re-rolling a failed Skill attempt it increases your chances of success, but if you Push Dice Rolls too many times, you’ll suffer the severe consequences. The failed consequence triggers an increase to your Panic Level adding 1d6 immediately to your dice pool. When you roll Panic Dice during a d20 Skill Roll if one or more 1's come up on the d6 Panic Dice you fail the task, and cannot Push the roll anymore, furthermore you must immediately roll a Panic Attack Save, if failed see Chart below. Rules design: DMs The Panicked Adventurer cannot roll again to achieve the same task. They will need to try something different or wait until the circumstances have changed in a substantial way. Or let another player character try. This rule does not apply to combat, where you can attack the same enemy over and over until it or you are dead. Hope this can inspire you to make your own Homebrew

[@chaseforchrist]

It may sound odd but these deep dive overviews are my favorite content on this channel. I'd love to have one on each of the remaining dnd editions as well as other works like C&C etc. Great stuff!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Chase, and you do not appear to be the only one who likes these best. :) My knowledge (and library) of 3/3.5 cuts off a few years before that line ends, and misses quite a few important late life cycle releases that tried to push the game in new directions (I am thinking of Dragon Magic, Book of Incarnum, and the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords). That said, I have been doing these overviews about six months apart, meaning I would have until June to get up to speed on 3rd in time for an overview (including time enough to get a few one-shots to the table). Hmmm...

[@tablesaltgames]

I’ve been bit by the 4ed bug as well lol. I picked up the core books for $30 (for all 3). I never used the phb2 the first go around, but I’m thinking of getting the mm2 and dmg2. I think 4th was before it’s time. Board games are big business now and 4th played more like a skirmish board game w/rpg bits in my opinion. I think younger players (and some of old guys) see how easy relatable it is to video games and skirmish games and it just makes sense of the resurgence.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, TSG, I hope you are enjoying your time with 4e and that the new year is off to a great start.

[@Thegn]

THIS is why I love this channel. Great stuff, thanks!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, so much, Thegn, I am thrilled that you enjoyed the overview. :)

[@MetalPriest74]

I just started loading up on my 4th edition books and started running a game with my 10 year old and my wife. We have played 5th edition and Marvel 1986 tsr edition and some Vampire as well as Star Finder. I love 4e. It plays like Diablo almost to me. Cheers and thanks for insightful help and doing these videos.

[@DungeonMusings]

That is awesome to hear! I hope you are having a blast with 4e and glad to hear that the video was helpful. :)

[@Arcboltkonrad13]

4e needs way more love

[@DungeonMusings]

Agreed. :)

[@CamoflagedTumbleweed]

Wow. Amazing and completely held my attention for entire run! Well done, subbed! 👌🙂🥦🦖

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, CT, glad that you found it helpful and welcome to the channel! :)

[@DavidShepheard]

I finally found the time to finish this video. Thanks for making it! I got off of the "Edition Treadmill" when 4th Edition came out, but I have been interested in learning from it (if not playing in it) for years. I agree with you about the bad-faith reviews of it. I've got a few 4e books with a view of retro-converting some of the ideas. I have really struggled with the mechanics in the past, which makes it a bit harder to raid from the books. But I do know some friendly 4e fans and they have made things easier. (I think for me the issue is not so much MMO-like mechanics - as I've played World of Warcraft - it's the radically different lingo. That's something that has confused me during MMO games, as I like to stay in character, rather than talk mechanically about games.) I think the main barrier with the lingo is the assumption that everyone understands it, so your coverage of the roles has been very useful. This video has also helped, as it explains how the various subsections of 4e fit together. For me, 4e was treading a lot of existing ground (with Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Eberron) and it was only really getting to the stage of making new stuff at the tail end of the edition. the Neverwinter Campaign Setting was one of the things I bought (and I've recently discovered they had at least one Neverwinter product that I didn't know about, so I'll probably buy that on PoD from DMs Guild). I think the worse thing about the 4th Edition Era was probably the way that they were building up to a tour of the built in 4e setting (Nentir Vale) with a range of gazeteers that would have done for Nerath what the GAZ series of books did for Mystara (the Known World), but then WotC pulled the rug from beneath that line and Gazetteer: The Nentir Vale never got made and I never even found out how many other gazetteers there would have been. The Nentir Vale gazetteer was the first 4e book I was due to buy new (I got all my 4e books cheap after 5e came out and people started to dump stock) and I think this would have been an excellent in-route for fans of campaign settings that were more interested in the Points of Light world than "sexy new RPG maths". I kind of feel that Nentir Vale has been scapegoated for 4e not engaging more old school D&D players, as it seems to be excluded from the settings that might one day come back as a 5th Edition thing. But - as a new world - it was the one setting where you don't have players of previous editions coming in with preconceived ideas of how the world works and getting frustrated at the changes. I have had a dragonborn PC in Heroes of Neverwinter (the Facebook game) but I think it would be a lot easier to get people to buy into dragonborn, or those plant people, in a world like Nentir Vale, where it's a blank slate. There is a 4e uber--fan, called Zeromaru X, who goes looking for all the Nentir Vale connections in 4e books, and I find his work fascinating. If you ever decide to do a Nentir Vale campaign on your channel, I'd love for you to do a collaboration with him (or even have him as a player or GM) as he really helps make Nentir Vale feel like a "proper" D&D setting (rather than just a namecheck).

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the comment, Dave, and glad you enjoyed the overview.

[@quinn1044]

Thanks for this video, great to hear an in-depth discussion of 4e. I started with 4e, so I remember it fondly, even though my enthusiasm for it waned as I got deeper into the hobby. Haven’t really given it any specific or substantial thought since, so this was sort of like meeting an old friend for coffee after losing touch! Might crack open those rulebooks again!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Quinn, I am glad to hear that it may have helped you get back in touch with an old friend. :)

[@trenthogan4212]

I really don't think it was inspired from WOW as much as it was focused on pushing miniatures, which at the time, WotC were pushing like mad. I had never played with minis before, but when I read 4e it was apparent that minis were necessary. As far as roleplaying is concerned, that is a function of the DM. 4e has all the tools to roleplay to the max, but unlike 5e it also has amazing tactical combat. My play group plays 4e the same as we did 2e, 3.5e and 5e in terms of role[laying. Notwithstanding the unmatched tactical combat, 4e has unmatched classes, monster manuals, DM guide 2 is fantastic, Dungeon Delves might be the best single book WotC has ever put out and 4e has Dark Sun!. Oh, and Hello from Southern Ontario. :))

[@dr3dg352]

I preordered that slipcase with money I got from helping the elder couple across the alley move! Years later once I was an adult my core book set got stolen from my car. 😣 Finally replaced my DMG a couple weeks ago, at least!

[@theshadowcult]

Was an excellent listen, informative and interesting. Was great to see an opinion from someone who plays all the dnd/pathfinders too. Thanks for the vid.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, TSC!

[@TheFatalT]

While 4e wasn’t really my cup of tea, I do enjoy the board game Adventure System line that I understand were based on 4e. Really enjoyed this and would love to see more deep dives into other editions/settings. Happy Holidays and looking forward to more gaming in 2021 (more Conan please 😜)

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Theo, I hope the holidays were great to you too (all things considered). And you will be happy to know that I noticed today that Roll20 has updated their sheet for Conan 2d20...so we will be returning to the Hyborian Age in 2021. :)

[@davidlorang7697]

Started with 5E. Our group is just about to start our first 4E campaign. Excited to try it and have an open non biased mind. It feels like a lot of the hate 4E seems to get is from 3, 3.5 players that didn’t want the game to change. I can relate in some way to that because I already feel like 6E is going to be nerfed a lot, in order to go corporate and expand even further. After going through the rules in preparation I see so much of 5e in 4E. I also wonder if the economic conditions had much to do with 4E’s lack of success. 2008 was a major economic downturn and most people had to tighten their wallets. Thoughts? Thankyou for this extensive review. By far the best 4E review I can find.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, David, they are greatly appreciated. I hope you folks are having a blast with your 4e game!

Finalmente, obrigado por ter atendido ao pedido :)

[@maxwalker66]

An interesting and excellent overview to listen to. While I don't think I'd run any 4e, I have the first few books and they are super useful to steal stuff from; player powers for rewards, the monster variants and abilities I like and use a ton. Will have to check out others you mentioned!

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Max! I am glad to hear that, even if 4e is not for you, you found some things to steal from it for your own table. :)

[@davidwasilewski]

I’m really glad I kept all my 4th edition books - and I bought nearly all of the books and modules they released back in the day. I loved the ‘miniatures tactical game’ aspect as I’ve been collecting and painting D&D miniatures for 30+ years. There were some problems with the mechanics though. I’ll always remember an encounter that took two hours to grind through because the players had burnt through their daily’s and encounter powers and they were fighting a high hit point bunch of monsters. PC death felt too rare as well (just like 5th), I’m thinking about going back and running it again but trying out halving all the PC and monster hit points. A good, fair review.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, David, glad to hear you enjoyed the review.

[@MetalPriest74]

Awesome video. We are running it right now. It's been amazing so far

[@DungeonMusings]

Hell yeah! :)

[@DiomedesRangue]

I always look forward to your reviews! Keep em coming! 4th edition didn't get me into the hobby when it had the opportunity so I'm a little disappointed in it :p High school would have been the best time to play these games. Even in hindsight 4e doesn't really tickle my fancy because I have things like gloomhaven that give me that amount of tactics when I need it.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind word, 0Q!. :)

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

Excellent overview as usual. I LOVE your willingness to do long form videos. A couple of questions about 4th ed D&D: comparative to other editions ( I'm a big fan of B/X ) is the combat and general PACING of 4th ed slower than other D&D rule sets? Can Theater of the Mind work at all ( with a realistic modicum of success ) if one doesnt want to invest in maps , grids and minis? How does it affect the game without? thanks for anyone in advance who can answer that has play experience.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks so much for the kind words, Ajax, I am thrilled to hear that you enjoyed it. :) In answer to your questions, while you may be able to work out a version of 4e to play in theatre of the mind, you would be losing so much of the tactical nuance that comes from playing 4e with a map and tokens/miniatures, that it may be better to just use a different edition that does not have that level of tactical detail. With respect to the time spent in combat, I have found it to be comparable to the time we spend with combat in either of the Pathfinder editions, AD&D 2e, and the more involved fights we have had in 5e. For folks new to 4e (or with new characters with new powers to learn, or a party figuring out how to synergize their abilities), it would likely take more time as the players got up to speed, but since the core rules are so simple (at least the combat rules are, comparatively speaking), the players can spend more of their focus on learning their characters, and the things that make them particularly cool and fun to play.

[@yourfavoritesteve]

This was a fantastic breakdown! Thanks for shining a balanced light on 4E.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, Steve! :)

[@EarthPrime52]

Character builder is the only way to get the extra dragon magazine stuff that I've found. It's a must have running 4e for me

This video never gets old.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Rogerio, glad that you have enjoyed it. :)

@@DungeonMusings I watch it once every year

[@JAYg33t4r]

Thank you for doing this. Getting into video game design and decided to snag 4e to get a crash course in world building and open ended mechanical dnd play. Excited to get started building campaigns and applying to video games. Thanks for this overview. Hard to find info on 4e

[@DungeonMusings]

You are most welcome, JWT, I hope it was helpful and that you are having a blast getting to know 4e!

[@BrutorzBill]

Very thorough overview.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Bill! I hope your holidays have treated you well. :)

[@arielcarmona6660]

I like all editions of D&D I have played but I think 4E gets a bad rap, I played it with two different groups and always had fun. Was it a different game? Absolutely but it wasn't a bad game as you pointed out here. With the right DM and group it's still a fun way to play.

[@DungeonMusings]

100% agree. It is definitely not for everyone, but I think 4e offers a unique experience at the table. :)

[@Stygard]

Thanks for this video! I believe this edition will better fit what my friends and family would enjoy then other editions.

[@DungeonMusings]

You are most welcome, Louie! I hope you and your friends/family have a blast with 4e.

[@Creek5Romeo]

I owned 4th Edition for about 14 hours in August 2008, the day it was released. I then sold it. What did me in the mechanics of scale, like a bow had a range of 4 squares (spitballing here, it's been 13 years). Coming from wargames and 1st Edition AD&D, then onto Second, I prefered range in feet (yeah yeah, 1st was different with ranges in inches). But just reading through the rules, to me it just felt like they were moving farther from where Gary and Dave had started the game (I actually started playing under the Holmes Rules set). Do I consider 4th edition to be a bad game? For me, yes. For others, if they enjoy it, play it. All and All that experience led me back to 2nd, and some hybridization from 1st. (Weapon To hits vs Armor type being the biggest). Great job on these reviews, looking forward to seeing the one on 3rd edition. And, no, I don't own, play, or have read any 5th edition.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Russell!

[@anthonychaplin6232]

Great analysis and review! Need a WFRP 3e video now, another unfairly outcast system

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, Anthony! I totally agree that WFRP 3e is unfairly maligned. :)

[@_evillevi]

I started playing during 4e, it was so good!

[@DungeonMusings]

100% agree. :)

[@user-jt3pn8bi5p]

I remember seeing ads for 4th ed. products when I was a kid. I didn't even know what D&D was at the time. The books were inaccessible to me for a number of reasons, and even if they had been, I wouldn't have had anyone to share the gaming experience with. Moreover, I've never seriously played any MMORPG. That being said, I totally get the appeal that Wizards were selling with the 4th edition. I'm definitely feeling many of the game design decisions they implemented, and the art style is remarkable. I have this strange feeling of affection for this version of D&D as though it were my first one to play even though, in reality, it isn't (I began playing P&P RPGs with Pathfinder 1e about a year ago and I'm sticking to my guns for now). I wish more people (or at least someone, lol) ran 4th ed. in my area so that I could put theory to practice and form a really informed opinion of the subject but it seems that the stigma around 4th ed. is so profound that nobody would even think of running it. I don't do online tabletop gaming so I guess I'll just have to suck it up for now, as far as becoming a 4th edition player goes, at least :D Anyway, great video and analysis, thank you for the effort.

[@user-jt3pn8bi5p]

Furthermore, you are right to point out how much neat stuff 5th ed. has borrowed from the 4th. Draven Swiftbow also goes in detail about this in his 4th ed. videos. Some of the smoothest 5th ed. mechanics come from 4th ed. All the more strange to see how many of those who used to play 3.x and are now enjoying 5th ed. are blatantly hating on the 4th edition. As for me, I'm not a fan of 5th ed. For my taste, it is altogether too bare bones, but some of the biggest things I do enjoy about it are all thanks to its predecessor, and, sadly, this fact is largely ignored.

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks very much for the thoughtful comment and kind words! I hope you get a chance to take 4e for a spin. :)

[@doctorbashful8676]

I used to have 4e books but got rid of 'em. Thinking now is the time to finally be able to play it!

[@DungeonMusings]

Hell yeah! Hope you have a blast with 4e, if you are able to get it to the table.

[@jctxcboy36]

Thanks for the video.....nice to revisit it but I was never a fan over 4e.....but I do like your video...They have to really create something phenomenal to compete with my view of AD&D...lol

[@DungeonMusings]

Ha ha, thanks TXCBOY. :)

[@DavidShepheard]

Dungeons & Dragons Insider was an interesting idea, that did actually continue (in stealth mode) at the start of the 5th Edition Era. Unfortunately, the Microsoft software that it ran on, got abandoned by Microsoft (and became a security risk) so they shut it down. WotC have actually been converting 4e issues of Dungeon into PDFs, to be sold on the DMs Guild storefront. You have a bunch of dropdowns on the DMs Guild store for finding things via edition or product line type, but they have not made a dropdown to find DDI stuff. However, if you search for D&D Classics + 4th Edition and stick in the word "Dungeon", you get the 4e Dungeon magazines (and some false positives): www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?filters=45471_0_0_0_0_45349_0_0&keywords=Dungeon The same goes for if you change "Dungeon" to "Dragon" (again, you get some false positives): www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?keywords=Dragon&filters=45471_0_0_0_0_45349_0_0 So this stuff is legally available to newbie 4e fans...just a little bit harder to locate.

[@DavidShepheard]

I found a better search!: www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?filters=45471_0_45409_0_0_45349_0_0&src=fid45409 (That is D&D Classics + 4th Edition + RPG Media + RPG Magazines.)

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks, David!

[@bromossunstarranger8706]

Thanks awesome links filling up my wish list 😊

[@DavidShepheard]

@@DungeonMusings I'm hoping that, one day, DMs Guild will flip the Print on Demand switch on, for the DDI content they are selling, so that people can get all that PDF-only stuff printed, if they want to.

[@DaniloLuisFaria]

I love the 4th edition! And it actually sort of saved my old game group, back in the day. Everyone wer playing WoW and losing interest in D&D, but they were all draw back to this game, because it allowed a similar mind set at the table! I never played the 4th edition, though, only DMed several campaigns.

[@misterbplays]

I definetly want to try 4e. And 2nd Edition AD&D was my bread & butter.

[@myronmason8170]

I am an avid Deva fan! I loved them!

[@mattbailey4144]

I have never played once in my life. My son started playing and I found out a friend from work is an avid player. So I am making my first character and I picked deva. I'm recreating the god Lugh. I'm having so much fun just learning this to play with my son. I hope I dont mess up too much in my first campaign. Not sure why they were not more popular because it sure looked cool to me.

[@jctxcboy36]

I do like alot of the adventures they released and have been looking into how challenging it would be to convert these to 2e, 3e or 5e use....but i will also reconsider my bias to this particular edition....when it first came out, was not a fan.

[@DungeonMusings]

Glad to hear the video was able to offer some food for thought! :)

[@PrimusxPilus]

I still DM 4E and 5E. Think 4E is easier

[@davewilson13]

To me 4th Ed was always a crossover edition from a parallel universe. Great game, but didn’t feel like it came from our reality.

[@islandbrowncoat]

I started with the 5e playtest that morphed into 4e. I was playing with a large group, of mostly longtime (at least 3e, but mostly back to 1/0e) players who mostly turned their noses up at 4e. Their trashtalking 4e didnt make sense to my noob brain, not knowing the lingo or even how the other editions played. I have now played 2-5es, various homebrews based on d20 systems, shadowrun 3e, and pathfinder 2e. I can now make my own judgements. I feel like 4e gets a lot of hate by traditionalists, who are even ones who enjoy mmorpgs, just on principle. That said, I find that in both 4e and path 2e, I am not a fan of feats. I hardly ever get the chance for most of them to be relevant and I would much rather have other bonuses. I'm ok with some feats, but it's like you have to keep track of spells even as a non-spellcaster (I like spellcasters, but I am a barbarian right now, and I have so many tricky little feats). In video games now I find myself really wanting to focus on the story, and not playing grindy games anymore (like mmorpgs/diabloesque), and I find that other editions are better at that than 4.

[@mistergoats4380]

Any ideas on a level 1-30 homebrew campaign? You convinced me to run it for 4e.

[@DungeonMusings]

Is there a setting or concept you are particularly interested in exploring? The rise of Chaos? The fall of Empire? The return of Elder Evils? Maybe reclaiming a lost kingdom?

[@phillipalleva-cox3903]

4th Edition all the way, it's the only version of the game where WotC tried to meaningfully evolve the game mechanics (to varying degrees of success). It has Flaws for sure, but for me it does so many things I like, and its fun to see, as a person who got a lot of crap for liking it back in he day, to see people finally warming up to it at least a bit. 5th edition is boring and lacks depth.

[@CraigS-]

Well said. Unfortunately my friends jumped on the 4th edition is an MMO bandwagon so we didn't play it much. I liked it, but I don't mind more tactical gameplay in my RPG. I also find 5th edition just a bit boring. It's alright, but there's nothing special about 5th for me.

[@DungeonMusings]

I completely agree that 4e was the only version where they pushed the rules into the most new ground of any other edition (the only comparable complete revision I can think of would be the changes that came with PF2). Based on some comments on the video, it seems that 4e still evokes some strong reactions from some folks, but I agree that there is much more of a willingness to explore what 4e offers now than there was when the game was in print (I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that fans of other editions also have a bunch of other material for their preferred editions easily accessible through online sources or the secondary market).

[@phillipalleva-cox3903]

@@DungeonMusings 4th edition D&D from a cultural impact, game design, and marketing perspective, is one of those things that I could talk about for a long time. I think there are a lot of reasons that it didn't click for people in the moment, some of which I think make a lot of sense. Others of which I think are just people being stubborn. Unfortunately that would lead me to write a small novella in the comments section 😂. But if you ever do another fourth edition dungeons and Dragons video I need a guest or something feel free to hit me up.

[@SirFluffy100]

Hi, loved this, but would be grateful for timestamps

[@warnado5007]

In my honest opinion - 4e is the best we got so far. The only other ttrpg i know and would consider replaying is pathfinder first edition.

[@DungeonMusings]

I still have enormously fond memories of 4e. :)

[@Vigilluminatus]

I sold my 4e books after my group moved away (students). I sold my 5e core rulebook after reading it once. I've regretted selling 4e once in a while.

[@TweaksDIRT]

Exploring this and ADND Second Edition. 4th is just Neat sounding and how it works.

[@DungeonMusings]

We had a lot of fun with 4e, back in the day. :)

[@graveyardshift2100]

Pretty sure Wilden are animal people. At least they were in 3.5.

[@DungeonMusings]

From the PHB3 for 4e: "Wilden are plantlike fey creatures. Their bones are hardwood, and their supple, barklike skin trails into vinyl tendrils and a cloak of leaves." You may be thinking of the Killoren (from Races of the Wild, which predate the Wilden, which were introduced in 4e's PHB), which had a less express connection with plants, but even those seem more plant themed than animal. From Race of the Wild: "Killoren have green or tan skin the texture of a soft, young leaf..."

[@graveyardshift2100]

@@DungeonMusings ok I looked up the 3.5 thing, which are called 'Wildren' and I'm not sure why they used such a similar name.

[@Trenell83]

4th edition is my favorite edition of d&d. While I do understand people not liking it, I find it ironic that 5th edition had some 4th edition stuff baked into it. For instance the fighter's ability Second Wind came from 4th edition. While the subclasses Oath of Ancient paladin and Oath of Vengeance Paladin are spiritual successor to the 4th edition Warden and Avenger respectively. 4th edition was the first edition in my opinion that bards didn't suck. They were great to use.

[@DungeonMusings]

I completely agree that Bards really came into their own in 4e. We had a Drow Bard in one of our 4e games and he was incredible. :)

[@rafaelalandrade]

I despise everything about 4E. I despise it so much that I dislike 5E because of the dregs of 4E that are still hanging on to the system. You give an excellent overview of the edition, and I'm happy to say you reminded me exactly why I hate it. It's a testament to your abilities that you can get someone like me to actually watch nearly three hours of content and feel pretty good about it in the end. Well done.

[@DungeonMusings]

This may be my favorite comment I have ever received. Thanks so much for the kind words, Rafael. :)

[@yellowrose0910]

WOTC: "4e is NOT a DND Video Game wannabe, dammit!" Actual Player who LIKES 4e: "I had no idea what the game was or how to play it. Then I realized it's WoW". :-)

[@DungeonMusings]

I definitely think that 4e takes some of the best ideas from MMOs and implements them in a terrific way for a TTRPG.

[@Baandaed]

Just found this. I always wanted to play a Warforged Druid...for the Mini, I planned to use the World's Smallest Transformers Dinobot Slag (the triceratops).

[@johnwhite2412]

Exhaustive over view. 4e is fun. It has no less rules for roleplaying than any other edition of D&D. Critiques that 4e was just a combat game missed the mark. Did you use any house rules to speed up combat, such as the 13th Age Escalation Die?

[@DungeonMusings]

Thanks for the kind words, John, glad that you enjoyed it! I had actually largely put 4e away by the time that 13th Age came out, but I have run that a couple of times and really like the Escalation Die. I have run 4e again recently (either last year or the year before) and did not use any house rules, at that time (though, I do use a morale mechanic in my games, like AD&D 1e/2e and BECMI or B/X D&D do, which often shortens combat encounters, if the players can whittle down the enemy numbers).

[@alexdevilbat]

I quite disliked 4th when it was new. The last thing my gaming group, who were all dedicated WoW players, wanted to do when we got together to play D&D was to play something unabashedly trying to be WoW. After playing a handful of times on the shelf it went. We all agreed that it was more of a skirmish wargame with RPG stuff sprinkled in between long and protracted combats needing a grid and miniatures to easily determine what's going on. It's difficult to theater of the mind just who all is affected by some AOE and where you should shift your character. Fucking shifting... I bet it's quite a bit better with virtual tabletops, though.

[@DungeonMusings]

Of all the editions of D&D, 4e was definitely the one that was mostly certainly not for every table. I had a blast with it (and still do), but totally understand why it would not be for everyone. It is definitely not a game made for playing Theatre of the Mind (you would lose so much of the tactical elements of the game, that I question why anyone would try) and had a optimal way of playing the game encouraged by the totality of the rules (with a map and miniatures), in a way that was more prominent than any edition before or since. Fortunately, we live in a time where all editions are seeing support from the fan base. :)