Minato Was Supposed To Be The Strongest Ninja Of All Time

[@DygoKnight]

Can Minato beat Tobirama?

[@stormflavored8829]

Yes

[@ZaRussianE]

Yes

[@YuvrajSingh-ws7yd]

@@petrusoliveira1 0.Naruto

[@rakshitkhullar2287]

Maybe maybe not

[@Samuel_Burgess_]

When is the next re write?

[@chilly0050]

The original Naruto had a theme of the next generation becoming stronger than the previous generations. The third hokage was stated to be stronger than his predecessor while Minato was stated as the prodigy who was close to surpassing the third but died against the 9 tail fox. The retcon really kicked in with the death of Itachi. Itachi was the "perfect" Uchiha so once you have Obito and then Madara, you needed them to be written stronger than Itachi. If Madara is stronger than all these characters then Hashirama who defeated Madara needed to be stronger than Madara hence the retcon.

[@jlit5215]

And that’s how we got hashirama making structures that dwarf the 9 tails and holds his ass like a toy

[@VanishXeno]

@@jlit5215 right bro

[@Viroh]

So was konohamaru supposed to be stronger than hiruzen? Why was asuma weaker than hiruzen? Shit logic kid

[@YHWHsam]

@@Viroh what kinda logic is this? Just cuz the best shinobi of a generation is stronger doesn’t mean all shinobi r gonna be stronger than the best shinobi of the past

[@Viroh]

@@YHWHsam "next generation becoming stronger" and hiruzen was one of the strongest ever and his family was a failure, so your opinion is shit as well kid Also, Sarada vs Marada fight when?

[@rodneylane952]

Hiruzen was also implied to be stronger than Hashirama and Tobirama, it’s wild honestly

[@wdj1420]

Yeah but people that haven’t even seen Hashirama or Tobirama so it isn’t good source

[@Jdudec367]

@@wdj1420 but they have seen Minato so still

[@bobjohnson1633]

The writing was better earlier. The first hokage was crazy strong because of his wood style. The 2nd could cast massive amounts of water out of thin air. Everyone always could get killed via getting stabbed once. The first and second hokage likely just got stabbed a couple times and died. The retcons constantly buffed and added new powers instead of simply demonstrating massive skill gaps like itachi v leaf jonin. Power creep was a writing problem.

[@japookie]

@@bobjohnson1633idk the firsts healing was OP thats the only reason he survived his fight with madara

[@auqanova]

bear in mind, hashirama, tobirama, and orochimaru lost the 3v1 against hiruzen, who was stated to be well past his prime, cut forward 500 episodes and suddenly hiruzen wouldve lost to any of them in a 1v1

[@calloo7843]

It's wild to think that Minato was concidered an extremely powerful Shinobi because he was able to beat the nine tails beast, even tho he lost his life in the process. But later in the story Madara beat all of the tail beasts in lest than a minute without too much effort. The power scale was ridiculously destroyed, not only Minato has no opportunity in that new scale, but the ultra legendary unstoppable and feared force of nature that were the tail beast wasn't much of a big deal. And I think that was too much

[@Lazar-TS]

Yeah but you seemingly forgot that Minato still is like the fastest ninja to exist. Also he saved the leaf village from a Kurama Bijū Bomb...

[@jhardi_official366]

Akutski(sp) were taking out tail beast with no problem

[@Lazar-TS]

@@jhardi_official366 "Akatsuki"*

[@jhardi_official366]

@@Lazar-TS thanks

[@kidluffy4469]

I cant rmr but did madara beat the 9 tails?

[@resengan123]

I still think Minato was the epitome of concept "shinobi" in his fighting style. Besides the abnu who get fodderized to show how strong a bad guy is, there aren't a lot of ninjas in the show who are straight-up assassins. He goes in, he strikes hard and fast, he gets out. His bread and butter were 2 jutsu and a kunai

[@aceclover758]

And the fact Minato had no BS genetics or heritage The Flying Rajin can be used by anyone with enough dedication and training, it isn’t exclusive to one clan or specific people

[@ikr233]

exactly! He was a master in Flying Raijin, plus he had Rasengan and abilities with sealing jutsus. I bet Kishimoto didn't want to give Minato the ability to do Shadow Clones, imagine Minato with Kage Bunshin + Flying Raijin + Rasengan, bunch of clones teleportating

[@Doflaminguard]

The main cast are mages than Ninjas lmao.

[@XBullitt16X]

Agreed, he fits the truest sense of a ninja, a through and through assassin.

[@tenkuken7168]

🎉

[@odd-eyes6363]

Minato was more built up and hyped in part 1 than Madara It is even implied Kishimoto originally planned for Naruto to know about his parentage or have some relationship with the Fourth since, in the manga before leaving the village Naruto asks the Minato statue to watch over him.

[@falconeshield]

I still say Part 1 was ghost written by someone else to this day. No way is the Part 1 writer the same dude who wrote Part 2. And Part 2 was a mess before the Pain Arc.

[@feliciaf8]

@@falconeshield i never thought of that before, seems really convincing

[@yamori5]

​@@falconeshield I think the alternative explanation could just be creative interference from higher-ups once Naruto really took off.

[@ectsy]

@@yamori5yea shonen jump usually tends to ruin their good mangas with ridiculous deadlines and notorious retcons to make more hype for a series. Shonen jump was a huge reason for bleach’s failure

[@ayham418]

​@@falconeshield the first arc and the secund arc in part two are good so what are you talking about

[@mattriarchal]

My headcanon on kakuzu is that in reality, he just witnessed hashirama in battle once or a few times and then kakuzu outlived everyone who’d known the truth that if he claimed to have survived a fight with hashirama, nobody would be around to contest the lie anymore hahaha

[@r4nd0m1zer2]

Hashirama let Madara live at least twice after beating him. The guy, once he got strong, seemed not to care too much who lived and died because all except Madara were not even relevant or relative to him. Why would he kill Kakuzu when he handed out all the non 9 tails bijus to the other villages for no reason at all. Killing Kakuzu would be the same as you or me killing a small fish stranded on a beach with a tank and airstrike combined. For all we know Kakuzu never even fought 1 vs 1, him surviving could have been collateral damage.

[@alphablob7885]

My headcannon is that kakuzu's greediness was the reason he was sent to fight hashirama. He was too greedy to the point that he wanted all the missions that had really good payments. Then his village leaders had enough of him that they made up an absurd mission with absurd payment (killing hashirama). They know kakuzu can't win but now they had a reason to kick him out.

[@alphablob7885]

After escaping from Hashirama, kakuzu then goes back to his village only to find out that he is being cast off due to the failure of hashirama's assasination. He then Realizes that he was just being setup to fail. Because of this he took revenge to the village by stealing their forbidden justu and taking the hearts of the village leaders.

[@dagothcharles2044]

My headcanon is that Kakuzu pushed Hashirama's shit back

[@hasseo195]

@@alphablob7885 Problem: He wasntz kicked out. He was imprisoned, after he failed to kill Hashirama. And i can think, that he could at last did a fight again Hashirama. Whe dont know, wich elements and jutsu he had in the past. But, from all characters was he, aside of Madara and Hashirama, the one, who used the biggest jutsu constantly. It is possible, that he could destroyed Hashiramas wood, if he had his fire and wind attacks in the past. And was forced to flee/was left alive, after Hashirama used sage mode and maked his jutsu bigger and stronger.

[@Exiled28]

The love Kishimoto had with the Uchiha Clan(and Sasuke) led to Hashirama becoming the strongest, then he created the awful Indra and Ashura stuff (which ultimately led to Kaguya 🤮) and made this story more about chosen ones instead of hard work, the retcon was more hurtful than it seems at first.

[@ExeErdna]

It made Rock Lee And Neji the real heroes of the story. Naruto was given everything in life in fact things were kept away for his own safety. Yet Naruto was a whole dumbass that couldn't just chill.

[@quentinjones6877]

I didn't have a problem with Naruto and Sasuke being descendants of Ashura and Indra but having them be reincarnations of them wasn't necessary

[@Exiled28]

@@quentinjones6877 Sasuke being the reincarnation of Indra wasn't bad at all because Sasuke is supposed to be the talented born with everything genius antagonist, the problem was making Naruto a reincarnation as well, I know Naruto is far from being a born with nothing/hard work shinobi but that was the last nail, that revelation is just as bad as Zetsu being the mastermind of everything, if not worse because it ruins the core message of the story.

[@quentinjones6877]

@@Exiled28 I prefer they be descendants and that's it, Obito already explained in the five kage summit arc that Ashura's descendants were Senju/Uzumaki and Indra's descendants were Uchiha

[@-kurogane-]

@@quentinjones6877 I agree. Couldn't they just leave them as end of the line Indra's and Ashura's descendants. Best explained by Obito during Five Kage Summit, that Naruto inherited Senju's Will of Fire and Sasuke "inherited" Uchiha's Curse of Hatred, and they are doomed to fight. If they were to be reincarnations, he would probably say that he sees Hashirama in him or etc.

[@Bloooo95]

I think Minato being the strongest cemented the idea of “the new generation always surpasses the last.” Hiruzen beating Hashirama and Tobirama and Minato being stronger than Hiruzen really sets this in stone. Hashirama and Madara being so ungodly powerful really takes away from that. I also just dislike the idea of the whole transmigrant stuff that was used to justify Hashirama and Madara.

[@bobjohnson1633]

Hashirama had wood style, which made him uniquely powerful. Hiruzen knew every technique in the village. Minato was a genius that mastered ftg which took 3 jonin to cast and he also mastered sealing jutsu. Kishi was all about knowing lots of techniques as making you strong and using techniques in smart ways was what made you a powerful ninja.

[@Reggin_ald]

Hashirama and Madara are the only exceptions so it's not that big of a deal

[@isaiah9722]

@@Reggin_ald your opinion is not that big of a deal

[@momotheone9700]

I agree with that, but the way naruto end up going, minato sort of becoming the blueprint in the way naruto fights rasengan, shadowclone jutsu sage mode,sealing jutsu, depending on efficiency speed with mind numbing power on top of it, i like that and i like that this is the path that naruto was gonna take to be an even greater shinobi than hashirama and madara, because if hashirama was the strongest along with being a reincarnation, then naruto just had to learn woodstyle or sumn to be the strongest, it would not work for me, and it actually shows that minato indeed had superior talent and potential than almost anyone and if he had lived he would look like what naruto is now except for six paths or kurama, so i think kishimoto did justify taking minato from the strongest ninja throne. So im glad minato was not the strongest it actually made him cooler than he already was

[@VDA19]

@@bobjohnson1633 Wood Style wasn't that big a deal until late in Part 2 when Madara and Hashirama could suddenly destroy the whole battlefield using it. Hashirama P1, Obito and Yamato's wood style wasn't that strong.

[@thomazprimoalves7025]

What happened with Minato is similar to every major Naruto retcon, that is to say, they orbit around the increasing importance of the Uchiha Clan warping the story around it. This is my major complaint with Shippuden and something I never really got over. Of course Hashirama had to be the strongest, he was the one that fought Madara Uchiha. He was the one whose cells were needed to the Uchiha antagonist plan. Minato was just, ya know, the protagonist's father. This is just another indirect symptom of the Uchiha wank that ruined Naruto for me. By the end of it, we merely got a glimpse at our protagonist's clan and parents, while the antagonists clan becomes literally descended from god (Sure, the Uzumaki were their long lost cousins or something, but we all know that wasn't explored in the story).

[@guythat779]

Bro get off your copium, kishimoto went the obvious path of highest hype

[@bobjohnson1633]

The Uchiha maxed out with itachi and EMS Madara from back in the day. The very very best Uchiha scaled with the very very best of any other clan. Obito got most of his power from being partly made of hashirama cells. Pain got his eyes from Madara and hashirama clones, and Madara got most of his 4th war power from hashirama cells, rinnegan from the hashi cells, 10 tails, etc. None of these terribly broken scaling had to happen.

[@kijanajenkins2546]

@Thomaz Primo Alves What do mean by "our protagonist"? The (Western) fanbase forgets all the time that Naruto isn't the only protagonist.

[@thomazprimoalves7025]

@@guythat779 what do you mean? I'm just giving my take on it lol

[@thomazprimoalves7025]

@@kijanajenkins2546 I mean, the show is named after him and he is obviously the protagonist, there is no arguying against that, even if I am using western terminology. I do agree that Sasuke grew up to be some sort of deuteragonist, but in my opinion, that was to the detriment of the plot. If you liked it, good for you.

[@residentevil25]

If you take a step back, its pretty clear where Kishimoto made this decision. Yes, in Part 1 Kishi already set up the thematic parallel between Naruto&Sasuke / Hashirama&Madara at the VotE But for all of part 1 and part 2 pre-war, the power scale benchmarks for Naruto and Sasuke were Minato and Itachi respectively. When Shonen Jump and Kishimoto decided to do another long war arc after the Pain Invasion arc - Kishi needed new power scale benchmarks for his main characters to reach Conveniently, Kishi had already introduced the Madara/Hashirama duo prior and that was the least "out of nowhere" way for Kishi to intro new benchmarks. If not for the VotE, Kishi may have had to introduce us to the Sage Brothers a lot sooner than he did to be these benchmarks instead.

[@residentevil25]

@@DatsLegitness sounds like we agree then haha. It wasn't until the War arc that Kishimoto retcon'd Madara/Hashirama's strength.

[@bobjohnson1633]

His mistake was POWER scaling and not simply skill scaling. This is all aside from the fact that the strongest enemies in the entire series are actually Akatsuki sans pain and Obito, because Madara, pain, and Obito all received a majority of their power from hashirama cells. Without hashi cells, there is no rinnegan, Obito would be blind and have no sharingan at all, and Madara would still be the guy who got clapped by hashirama.

[@jamesrt5352]

@@residentevil25 have to disagree strongly with that. Kishi clearly intended Madara and Hashirama to be the strongest ninjas far earlier than the War arc. Maybe the true extent of their strength and them being Reincarnations was decided by Kishi during the War, but there's plenty of evidence to suggest Madara and Hashi being the strongest before that. For example, fake Madara declaring War was enough for the 5 most powerful Nations to form an alliance. I doubt the nations would ever form an alliance only to fight Minato. And the Tsuchikage himself asks why Madara with all his immense strength would need to resort to underhanded tactics, and fake Madara replies the injuries he sustained fighting the First Hokage have left him too weak. Madaras name alone is enough to get everyone to start a war. Itachi also talks of Madara being a legendary ninja during his fight with Sasuke, hyping him up as the first to awaken EMS. The 9 tails also hypes up Madara at the start of Shippuden when Sasuke enters Narutos inner world. Obito also says to Sasuke, when he reveals the truth about Itachi, that Hashirama was the "Shinobi who stood at the top of the Ninja World"- and Obito had fought minato so he knew how strong he was. And Hashirama was revealed to have defeated both Madara and the 9 tails simultaneously at this point, whereas Minato was killed by the 9 tails. So by the end of the Itachi fight, Hashirama is clearly stronger than Minato. And back in chapter 239, Minato himself says Konoha is the weakest its ever been while he was fighting in 3rd ninja war. Furthermore, throughout Shippuden, ever since Yamato was introduced, Hashiramas cells have been shown as Godlike substance that can basically do anything. It can give you woodstyle, it allows you to use Mangekyo Sharingan with no blindness, it gives you healing ability/regeneration, increase in chakra and stamina, awaken the Rinnegan. If Minato was intended to be the strongest until the war arc, why is no one using his cells (Orochimaru has them, yet only uses Hashiramas for experiments). The Valley of the End is an immense area of destruction, and Minato has never been shown to be able to produce such destructive capacity. Kakashi says the river flowing through the VotE, like the battle like it, never ceases. It is such an immense battlefield we are not shown its end. Ever since the Sasuke retrieval arc, the VotE has basically been hyped up as the most legendary fight between 2 shinobi. I would argue at least by the time of the Itachi fight, Kishi had intended Madara and Hashirama to be the strongest and he probably had intended since Yamato's introduction. One could also argue that Madara and Hashirama were intended, or at least foreshadowed, to be the strongest since the Valley of the End.

[@illumination_0109]

@@residentevil25 did edo tensei gave unlimited chakra in the hokage vs hokage?

[@residentevil25]

@@VroseFN he was meant to be at that point of the story, but during the War Arc Kishi changed his mind

[@godlotus8329]

Hiruzen really afraid of Minato more than Hashirama💀💀

[@Samuel_Burgess_]

Bro was afraid of him finding out how the village treated Naruto 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@vihaananish4268]

How was he gonna find out. First he'd be in Orochimaru's control and he was on a rooftop and why would anyone bring that up.

[@donovan4222]

You can tell the story wasn’t planned out at that point because Kishi hadn’t thought of the tailed beast storyline yet and it wouldn’t make sense for the strongest of all time to die to the 9 tails

[@Sunaki1000]

He was glad he didnt had to fight 4 Dudes. At that Time it felt like he was just glad to cut Oroshimarus Numbers.

[@ohboi9578]

i mean duh since Minato was supposed to be the strongest in OG

[@metaflame5346]

I think making Hashirama the strongest hokage was overall a bad decision. I mean sure, it was necessary to make him the strongest in regards to Madara being the "final" antagonist, Madara who was his rival. However, the fact that no shinobi surpassed the first hokage until Naruto makes the whole theme of "the will of fire" and the idea that every new generation surpasses the previous, completely shallow, an idea that was almost as important as the "fight against destiny" that was disregarded as well by the end. By keeping Minato, the strongest hokage, naruto has a clear protagonist quest, be part of this legendary shinobi line, with each member being stronger than the last one, he has to surpass the fourth. Moreover I feel that the whole prophecy and reincarnation cycle of indra and Ashura was made to justify this retcon and to link it to the main plotline. This whole part of the story was a mistake in my opinion. And lastly, making Hashirama the god of shinobi made him too important in the plotline. Having legendary figures in your story is a good thing, it makes the universe richer, shows that it's alive, that it had history before the story. Paradoxically, reviving Hashirama and making him so important to the plotline made the whole world building less alive, less good. Hashirama should have not appeared again in the main story after the Orachimaru vs Hiruzen fight. It's extremely important for the fictional universe to have legendary figures stay legendary, part of the lore but not more. By the way it applies to other figure, Hagoromo should have never appear and worse than that participate in the war, Kaguya should have never even be mentioned. And I feel the retcon of Hashirama becoming the strongest was made to justify all that.

[@Bloooo95]

I 100% agree with you about legendary figures. When Hagoromo appeared in the series, I rolled my eyes to the back of my skull. He was a great legend to have in the lore, but he didn’t need to make an appearance. Kishimoto got obsessed with explaining away too much and leaving too little to the imagination. This led all the way to chakra being a thing that came from a tree born from alien DNA. Up to that point, I never questioned the existence of chakra. It seemed as ever-present as oxygen in the Narutoverse. It doesn’t need an explanation. But Kishimoto wanted to expose too much and it creates holes in the story and makes it collapse under its own weight.

[@Viroh]

Tldr

[@hectorlackless]

Yeah 100% agree with this, plus hashirama is just too busted, he wasn't relative to madara in the valley of the end as madara needed the strongest tailed beast to fight him. His regeneration is ridiculous, it would be one thing to make him have enhanced regen on slug sage mode or something but when his cells seem like a stupid plot device that makes everyone stronger.... If he wanted madara to be top dog he could just have justified his lost with hashirama by "Well he became stronger after the undread years he was alive and studying the world"

[@bobjohnson1633]

Hashirama's strength had nothing to do with the power of the final boss. Madara had to be boosted by hashirama cells, which gave him rinnegan, and being immortal with infinite chakra, and he got the 10 tails. That's how Madara got so strong. Hashirama was shown to be NOTHING in comparison, and if he was never buffed, he would still have been nothing to that super buffed Madara. Changing the power levels of any of those characters was entirely meaningless except to imply that all ninjas from back in the day were all super OP and could kill hokages without much effort.

[@donovan4222]

This is pretty much the biggest problem with part 2 Naruto is they just introduce characters with big exposition dumps and expect you to care about them

[@LMProductions99]

One thing to note is that there were several major retcons throughout Naruto's series. In regards to this video, Minato was originally supposed to be the strongest Hokage. The next generation surpassing the previous generation. Which was a constant theme in Naruto. But, an even bigger retcon that affected the entirety of the series, and created a lot of issues found in this video is the power scaling retcon. Early on we saw Hokage level fights. We saw high level ninja fights with Kakashi. Those fights were originally supposed to be how powerful characters in Naruto were supposed to become. Then a change happened where the power level ceiling was increased exponentially to the point where tail beasts can shoot nukes from their mouths. That insane level of DBZ-like power was never intended to be in Naruto. But, changing the power level ceiling so high did hurt the overall story since early Naruto fights were no longer consistent with end of the series Naruto fights. Extremely powerful characters who appeared early on in the series appeared weak due to their early series fights, and then by the end of the series they were so much stronger out of nowhere. Hashirama was as strong as he was originally intended to be early on in the series, then we saw his power level gradually increased as the series went on. Which made Hashirama's feats very inconsistent from his early series feats to his late series feats. The power level ceiling is one of the biggest issues with Naruto overall from a narrative perspective.

[@fidelgarcia2224]

The Tailed beast were always meant to be that strong. In the beginning it was said that Kuramas tails could level mountains just by swinging them. And the them getting stronger later makes since it's a Shounen anime/Manga so of course a new powerful enemy would appear where they would be to weak so they do training and get stronger

[@LMProductions99]

@@fidelgarcia2224 Getting stronger throughout the duration of a series is one thing, but retcon how powerful characters can become is another thing. Kakashi vs Zabuza is a perfect example of power level retconing. During that fight both were showing off their water style jutsu. During that fight we were told that both were using high level ninja jutsu. But, later on in the series that has proven to be false. In fact the way that their "high level jutsu" was performed was never used again in the entire series. That was immediately scrapped in favor of more streamlined "high level jutsu abilities." What we saw back that pales in comparison to what was shown later on in the series. High level abilities and attacks early on are nothing compared to high level abilities and attacks late in the series. So the extent of how powerful a ninja could become was retcon and increased as the series went on. And the tail beasts were also wildly inconsistent with their power levels too. Telling us about a character and actually seeing that character in action is also inconsistent as well. ANBU were said to be elite ninjas, and they were hyped up only to be a joke. Kurama was said to be the most powerful of all the tailed beasts, but even his power level was inconsistent throughout the entire series. It wasn't until the end of the series that the author finally decided to commit fully to the whole ninjas with DBZ-like powers.

[@zeroskaterz92]

@@fidelgarcia2224 Level mountains just by swinging =/= nuke blast a continent. If you can't tell the difference then I'm sorry for you.

[@AK-MS27]

Kurama was said to destroy mountains in an instant so your argument is invalid

[@LMProductions99]

@@AK-MS27 I'm not really sure what you tried to accomplish with your comment, but spewing random statements doesn't invalidate my comment at all. In fact your comment barely has anything to do with the heart of what I was talking about in the first place.

[@empoleon22]

I think the Pain Arc ending is kind of what caused all this. Pain was clearly meant to be an end-game type of boss. He killed Jiraiya, the protag's mentor, and said protag was compared to Minato during his fight with Pain. Naruto almost beat Pain on his own, something that even the best known ninja couldn't do. And sure it took him going Nine (eight I know) Tails to truly defeat him, but he still did really well with his own power. After Pain though, things ramped up considerably. Power levels got well and truly out of control, and it feels like that was when Hashirama and Madara started getting focused on as these all powerful figures. Sage mode was supposed to be the most powerful form, but then it wasn't. Power creep kills world building first, and Naruto suffered a lot of world death through the original series and Shippuden.

[@MisterLongShot_Official]

This is one of the best comments I have really seen on this subject, and I agree with you. The end of Pain Arc should've been the end of Shippuden, it FELT like the end. Naruto was finally the hero of the Leaf, Kurama was still mostly an evil spirit to be feared instead of being friends with everybody, the leader of the Akatsuki was dead, many of it's members dead, The Big Plan was mostly foiled. The only thing really unresolved would've been the Sasuke story line. But then it just.... Kept going, and going. A time skip to adult Naruto, and better power scaling (and way less Conflicts Of The Past via all the edo tensei crap), with Sasuke being the new puppet leader of Akatsuki, THEN the reveal about Obito being the puppet master (maybe with the spirit of Madara or something guiding/corrupting him).... That would've made for a much better story telling I think. But shonen don't grow up to be seinen, unfortunately.

[@davidmorales7371]

​@@MisterLongShot_Officialagreed. In my mind, the pain arc was the end for me

[@MisterLongShot_Official]

@@davidmorales7371 it just seemed to get very DBZ-esque after that.

[@ayhamahmad2277]

​@@MisterLongShot_Official what happens in the war arc was established in part one

[@jtt764]

@@MisterLongShot_Official honestly, i felt the same way. I wouldnt have been upset if naruto mastered the ninetails chakra while kurama maintained his evil and sasuke obtained EMS and then they fought directly after and then that would be the end of the series.

[@jruler93]

I love when Madara activates his Perfect Susanoo, swings its sword and cleaves off mountain tops with the resulting air pressure, then he's just like "Whoops, looks like your maps will need to be redrawn a little" as if it's no big deal. Like, what the hell do you do to beat a dude like that? Kishimoto sure as hell didn't know.

[@aceclover758]

His first mistake was making any individual Shinobi stronger than the nine tails.

[@jhovanigallardomoreno4255]

@@aceclover758 his first mistake was building up a lot of things in part one that didn’t manifest into anything and were forgotten and abandoned

[@SouthpawsRule217]

@@aceclover758 exactly. No shinobi should ever come close to a bijuu, and frankly, perfect jinchurikies should be leagues stronger than any regular shinobi and FAR greater threats than they were in the series. The whole "tailed beast" name loses its significance when you see hashirama simultaneously beat kurama and madara.

[@donovan4222]

@@aceclover758 Yeah the power scaling gets wonky around the time when everyone starts throwing the tailed beasts around like they are nothing. In part 1 it was implied that Minato was the strongest and that was why he was the only one who could stop the 9 tails (and die trying). This is why everyone loves the pain arc, it showed that 9 tails was still the strongest character, and even a god like Pain couldn’t handle him.

[@GeraldoHenriqueChavoso]

what the hell do you do to beat a dude like that?: Slap him with 1000 wood hands

[@ZanesZygot]

Tbh I loved Minato being that kinda legendary character that no one knew exactly what he was capable of. Even when the games (which I know are not canon) started including him, he was so ridiculously strong. When they finally showed in detail his story and how he died, I felt and still feel as one of the most touching scenes of Naruto, yet it took away that aura of his and for me it is what ruined it. It just feel like he was kinda forgotten or they downplayed him. But like you said, for the powerscale until that moment, he really was something else.

[@corruptangel6793]

The opening panel made the battle with the 9 tails come across as a world ending event. A cataclysmic battle with a demon that forced all the great clans to work together, yet it ultimately fell to the 4th Hokage to save the day and seal it away. Hiruzen's reaction to the idea of Orochimaru reviving Minato definitely seems to fit with that original idea. It also makes Kurama look weak when he does manifest. In the opening panel, every sweep of its tail caused natural disasters, yet the one we get only has its beast bomb that's worth a damn. Also makes the flashback reveal of what actually happened seem kinda pathetic by comparison.

[@gabrielttenroc2906]

Remember when Minato was a character in the early storm games? His face was shadowed out and everything 😂

[@Dizzinator2114]

What really bothered me about the retcon is that they said every generation is stronger than the one that came before… so by making madara and the 1st so powerful it went against that notion. It was fitting that hiruzen would be stronger than the 1st but to turn around make everyone after the 1st weaker than him was like a slap in the face but eh the show was still entertaining nonetheless

[@GeorgisTrying]

The retcon was hurtful for multiple reasons, one of them being Kishimoto's tendency to introduce a concept before walking back on it/abandoning an idea for a shiny new one, which then also gets abandoned. For chapters and chapters the legacy and idea of the 4th's GOAT status, legacy, world building and relationships with other characters was a cornerstone of Naruto as a whole. The man's COFFIN made Hiruzen ruin his pants, come on

[@genericwhitemale9566]

I don't like it because it ruins the whole theme of passing down the "will of fire" to the next generation. The next generation is supposed to surpass and become stronger than the last and that was completely true up until the retcon. Now every generation follows that theme.....except the first one which is nightmarishly stronger than basically every other generation that came after* it except Naruto and Sasuke.

[@Slavolko]

It might've not been Minato that Orochimaru tried to resurrect. His soul was sealed away by the Reaper Death Seal, but who knows if Kishimoto had that in mind at the moment. Maybe it was Minato, maybe not. Could've also been the 4th Kazekage. Regardless of who that was supposed to be, I do agree with you.

[@lolcall5295]

​@@Slavolko back in part 1 we don't know how minato died so yeah it could've been minato.

[@Slavolko]

@@lolcall5295 You're right, but that means it could've also not been him. Considering we saw the seal that Hiruzen used, Kishimoto might've thought a little about how Minato sealed the Nine Tails in Naruto. Just a thought.

[@lolcall5295]

@@Slavolko it's very unlikely that it's not minato with how not only that we don't know how he died back at that time and how desperate 3rd hokage is to prevent the 3rd edo tensei + the trend there with orochimaru brought up 2 of the previous hokage. Sure it could've been anyone, even zabuza or haku but it won't make sense narrative wise. The entire point of the 3rd edo tensei being prevented (heavily implied to be minato) was to hyped minato up for the future.

[@pavelandonov3345]

Minato was the character Naruto tried to measure up to for a long time in the series. Having him be inferior to several ninjas diminishes the importance of Naruto surpassing him

[@falconeshield]

The scene were Naruto was trying to master the elemental rasengan with Minato in the distance...not so effective now, iconic aside

[@stavrospoulakis8447]

I really want Minato to be the 1 to win the voting competition. Having a Manga where we can see about his childhood and his reaction with the other konoha characters would be awesome.

[@LAGator-qu7tc]

They gonna turn it into a love story. It's the only way AND they"ll have to start bringing in hax for shit to make since

[@hectorlackless]

I don't see him giving us that interesting stories because he was haxed since chilhood and the greatest conflicts of his life came until the third shinibi war where we also know he just stomped. We alredy saw the most interesting moments of his life a.k.a kurama & obito fight we even know when he got with kushina, the only thing that may be interesting would be learning him about getting perfect sage mode but we alredy had an arc like that in naruto.

[@SRT_DRE]

Nah, I’m good. Nobody wanna see a Tobirama version of Naruto.

[@orochimarupr]

@@SRT_DRE Another rasengan boy with talk no jutsu

[@SRT_DRE]

@@orochimarupr facts. I rather see Fugaku and all his glory. Leaf Village some haters.

[@tynoArcher]

I actually always had that feeling that Minato was supposed to be the Best Ninja of All Time, I dont think he's strength is comparable to that of Hashirama or Madara, but his wits, quick thinking and intelligence makes him the most likely character to find a way to defeat ANY opponent (Hashirama, Madara and Kaguya included), in that sense he truly is the Strongest Ninja of All Time, IMHO.

[@StraightBleach]

Flying Raijin is still Honestly the most OP ability in the Verse. It never disappears even after death and basically makes just about anything a breeze.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

I think its obvious Hashirama wasn't initially supposed to be top dog especially considering the Senju weren't created by Kishi until the Itachi fight

[@dancorneanu9144]

Senju? Like Tsunade Senju?

[@Fleuks]

@@dancorneanu9144 Exactly, Tsunade is the best example of Senju not being a thing until way in Shippuden. Tsunade has never been said, called or even put next to the Senju name. It's not even stated in the whole story, We know she is a Senju because we know she is in Hashirama's family, but she was never named as such. And again, she is a very important character from the start, even in part 1. Kishimoto just never thougth about Senju at that time.

[@dancorneanu9144]

@@Fleuks She was mentioned about that in the arc she was introduced. The 2 advisors and Jiraiya start with the fact she she is grandaughter of the first.

[@Fleuks]

@@dancorneanu9144 Yes I know, that's what I said. Jiraya said it first when they met with Naruto, we know that Tsunade is from Hashirama's family. But she has never been put with the Senju, ever. It is never mentioned, and never spelled. Tsunade isn't a Senju, until we learn with hashirama's story the Senju/Uchiha fight, and that by default, if Hashirama is a Senju, than Tsuna is too. Why ? Because Senju simply didn't exist until later in Shippuden, simple.

[@dancorneanu9144]

@@Fleuks That's not how it works.... An idea does not just come into existence in sequential order. We know of things that come out of nowhere. This idea that something is not created till the date it is mentioned applies very rarely. And you actually have to have proof that element was not before thought of. Most authors set up elements and plot progression before the series begins and they modify it. Thus the requirement of proof. The antral state is that later revels happen because, logically, you can't info dump. twists, more info and plot progression, In case of Naruto, the 2 series are not treated as separate. They exist in the same direct line. Just a skip in universe time. Naruto and Shippunden exist as series. Only the anime split them apart. The reason we do not have the name mentioned all the time has more to do with the Legend of Jiraiya. The 3 characters are known as Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru for that reason. it is a nod to the story. Then they got more info revealed as the story progressed.

[@Hafiz-tl8pi]

Hiruzen was called "The Professor" because to his unprecedented versatility in ninjutsu. Having mastered all the skillsets and combat forms of the shinobi arts and the title "God of Shinobi" was given because he was a prodigy

[@RubyAPBT]

I think Minato was suposed to be a fuinjutsu master and have a lot of knowledge from Uzumakis(because kushina teach him) knowledge from Jirayia about seals. He was suposed to be pretty smart too so he should have know a lot of jutsus too. But when we see him, he barely do fuinjutsu the only one we see is Hiraishin and Tobirama uses that too and like he stated to naruto he is the one who made it. After he learn the masked man is Obito Minato brain goes down hill... While Hashirama and Madara do they kaijuu battle I guess it would be very anticlimatic if Minato joins the fight and make a seal to exorcise Edo Madara back to the land of dead or have any seal to counter juubi. I don't mind Hashirama being the strongest, but the way Kishimoto made Minato in 4th war was a bit let down too, because he went from amazing Hokage and one of the most powerfull shinobi to a kind of generic person. -Because his Hiraishin sudenly was Tobirama Hiraishin( yeah sudenly because Tobirama never was mentioned to have it before it was close to 4th war.), -His rasengan is less unique cuz we see it first with Jirayia and latter Naruto make many better versions of this. Than we learn it is based on bijuudama. -His fuinjutsu is basicaly Hiraishin we do not see any other fuinjutsu made for fight. The seal in Naruto belly, the kye for it, but again we learn this seal is a Uzumaki seal not a thing he made from 0 by himself. -Shinigami fuinjutsu again Uzumaki stuff... It is sad, because he suposed to be an amazing genius who invented things but he becomes a kind of copycat who improves what he uses and a one trick pony too because he only do hiraishin plus raseng if one fails he is fucked.

[@Crunchysopa52]

well said lol

[@orrissonpereira1070]

Too many retcons spoiled Naruto. Like, Uchihas having a whole army of Mangekyou users who spam Izanagi. That was the dumbest.

[@-kurogane-]

True. Even when two characters share the same ability, for example Jiraiya and Naruto sage mode, their fighting styles are drastically different. Maybe he was not supposed to be inventing a lot, but at the same time he is an example of a ninja. Everything he ever saw in ninjutsu, he improved and did well, practice makes perfect. He learned a couple of jutsu and he maximized the efficiency so much, that he become Hokage. I think, KCM Minato in the show should've been something like himself in Ultimate Ninja Storm, basically throw everything at once and blitz the opponent. It may not be as sophisticated but it is heck of a show, especially with his terrible jutsu naming.

[@trippy-shoota]

Imagine being mad because your head canon was wrong lmao bro said “ I think” 😂

[@pauloazuela8488]

We saw him used Reaper death seal, Tetragam seal(I guess) , contract seal(against young Obito), Flying raijin and the Hokage red seal. The only known invention of him being passed down was the Rasengan. It makes sense for the seals since Uzumaki clan are known for seals. Many characters in Naruto are one trick pony , hell fodder Chunin fodders can't even do things other than ninja tools look at Mizukage lecturing them and no Genin was on the war saved for Naruto. I think your main statement just goes to assumption rather than what was stated of him even in OG because so far OG just said he created Rasengan , I don't remember anything other than that he invented

[@SuperJackedHobo]

I always thought when Hiruzen said that things would be different if Minato was around, he at least meant partially politically too. We know later on too that Hiruzen thought if Minato had lived that he'd find a way to prevent the Uchiha uprising too. He might have also found a way to deal with the Orochimaru problem or at least not have let Orochimaru and Danzo get away with all that they did since Hiruzen was too sentimental of his old comrads.

[@anotheret1064]

Making the first Hokage unsurpassed in power, would essentially mark him as a failure. The true mark of a teacher is having their students surpass them.

[@Greg12839]

oh yeah because one can just "surpass" the God of shinobi

[@proudfatherofadeadweightso5715]

Hashi built different lol

[@wb7585]

Doesn't mean physical feats. One can argue tobirama was better than his brother because he made all the functions that are carried throughout the hidden villages

[@chilly0050]

That was the theme of the original Naruto. The third hokage was stated to be stronger than his predecessor while Minato was stated as the prodigy who was close to surpassing the third but died against the 9 tail fox. This retcon really kicked in with the death of Itachi. Itachi was the "perfect" Uchiha so once you have Obito and then Madara, you needed them to be written stronger than Itachi. If Madara is stronger than all these characters then Hashirama who defeated Madara needed to be stronger than Madara hence the retcon.

[@chalbramwell5353]

@@chilly0050 when did they ever say he was close to surpassing hiruzen

[@EksaStelmere]

I am very much in the camp that they should have stuck to Minato's legacy. Given the direction of the manga's power scaling, my opinion would require extensive changes to the final product, alas.

[@anvos658]

Very little actually since you just have Madara hand pick a team of what he thinks are the best Edo Tensei to complement him, and then you don't have to add things like KCM 2 and Perfect Susano. Plus it would have make Strength of 100 Sakura more comparable to her squad.

[@dankestranch8738]

Alas

[@Stefan0v1]

Even as a kid i knew that Minato was supposed to be the strongest..especially when Hiruzen stopped Orochimaru from summoning him. When we got to see Hashirama,Madara,Tobirama,Hiruzen and Minato actually fight , i was like " How the hell is the new generation surpassing the old one?" That narrative went out the window really fast. Kinda bs, really...

[@lukystarr883]

I must agree with you that Hashirama being the god of shinobi is fitting. However Minato is so unique and versatile that his character showed the most potential of all shinobi to become the greatest. Just imagine him with such a high IQ and intelligence, speed, and the creativity to master any jutsu growing up and reaching his full potential.

[@randomavenger3048]

He becomes a Jinchuruuki before his death too.

[@nathansanrochman5018]

Fax

[@lukystarr883]

@@randomavenger3048 Definitely, he's a genius bro.

[@rupertgordonii6623]

Yeah I always felt this like in a way, it all worked out for them and their individual legacies

[@Noblesavage31]

I’ll minute always shown to do was one sealing Jutsu that he learned while banging his wife, teleport and rasengan He was far from diverse

[@SBCLyricist]

It’s just hard to think like Kishimoto really planned on never showing him which is mind boggling 💀

[@Brave_New_Tube]

I learned recently that Kishimoto said in a previous interview that editors messed up his writing plans quite a bit. Orochimaru was apparently solely a product of editor demands for someone to interrupt the chunin exams, which ALSO only happened because editors wanted Kishimoto to speed the story up and have a tournament to introduce new characters. Kishimoto’s vision was sabotaged from very early on, so he had no choice but to do a lot of retcons and asspulls throughout the entire series.

[@SirDehumanized]

That makes sense because I honestly don’t understand Orochimaru’s motivations. Why even bother destroying the leaf village? His goal was to master all of the world’s jutstus. How does blowing up the leaf village further that goal? Seems like his character wasn’t fully fleshed out yet.

[@KPD_KPD]

Orochimaru's story is so damn weird because he's pretty much the Kage of the sound village and then he assassinated the Kazekage (one of the strongest shinobi atm) without any spectacle nor got any issue with it and everyone just seemed to forget about all of that? Like, we got a whole ninja village lead by a terrorist and nobody cares?

[@RandomCommenter-y4o]

​@@KPD_KPDOrochimaru be like "Yeah stuff is going pretty well atm. I can do my research in peace, I got a whole village under my control, my Uchiha body is almost ready to take oit of the oven. What to do now? Oh, I know! Let's take a short vacation and start an international crisis for literally fuck all reason!" And it's not even the weirdest thing about him. I REALLY wish Kishi went more into his world building because.... Something like the Akatsuki is easy to understand. They're all crazy powerful, a small group, have a small country under their control, their operations are almost 100% covert and when not pursuimg their goals, they grind jobs for the cause. Like it's easy to see how all of it works. Oro on the other hand got bases and prisons all over the world, apparemtly outside any kind of government control or authority because he's put here destroying entire communities and abducting untold numbers of people. He's not even a bit subtle about it, mfer has REGULAR people/ninja on the payroll literally all over. HOW is he allowed to operate like this? Matter of fact how does he even pay for all this shit? You telling me that one dude is running actual prison camps all over the place and nobody in the world can find them? His entire existence is super, super weird

[@Gymkage]

Turning into my fav KZbinr keep it up

[@hikoseijuro9291]

There's a reason Minato was the only Hokage edo to not recover his arms. Kishimoto almost drew himself into a corner and had to come up with a way to lessen Minato's effect on the war.

[@bizuett]

Is like nerfing Kakashi after Zabuza's arc. Kakashi would've solved any got dam problem they had, until Itachi and Kisame appeared. Kishi didn't want Minato to face Madara.

[@B3an01]

And my man was still pretty effective in the war ARMLESS minato was more useful than most shinobi in guy vs madara who else could teleport in between the 2 turn around take the orbs teleport away before they even hit him

[@resolute7177]

@@bizuett thats not true, madara would of had no problems defeating minato

[@erichdegurechaff9515]

@@resolute7177 Madara post retcon, the entire conversation is about what was before retcons

[@residentevil25]

Even tho we the audience thought Tobi was Madara, its very clear that Kishi planned for Tobi to reveal as Obito and be the final villain of part 2 because of the placement of Kakashi Gaiden between part 1 and 2 in the manga

[@EclipseHedgehog]

as far as I'm concerned with Minato v Tobirama, flying raijin was MINATO'S justu up until the war arc. His own original jutsu that made speed (in terms of warping, not physical speed) his trait. Hashirama had wood, Hiruzen master tons apon tons of jutsu, Tsunade had her strength and healing prowess, what did Tobirama have? Mastery of water. Kinda lame right? Kishi was probably like "shoot. I gotta give him something else uuhm slap edo tensei onto him! Don't ask why just do it! and make him the originator of flying raijin because I can't think of anything!"

[@ridosaputra5273]

He already have a ton of cool Jutsu in Hokage vs Hokage fight

[@Rakerong]

I always thought that Tobirama as the originator of many powerful jutsu to be a cool thing. Kind of like a pioneer of useful concepts that others have made better or utilized more effectively than him. He was always a pragmatic and utilitarian person so it would make sense for him to come up with stuff that could be important in protecting the village.

[@EclipseHedgehog]

@@Rakerong this i can settle with. Tobirama was obviously the more 'smarter' brother of the two senju's. While Hashirama had the heart he was more down to earth than Tobirama who pursued jutsu.

[@Bezi0PL]

Remember that Minato sealed a part of nine tails into himself ? That could have been extremely problematic too

[@Seatek_Ark]

I think that NCHammer's estimation of Minato's chakra levels are accurate. Meaning he had close to the same amount of Chakra as Hashirama. In addition to that he has a more efficient teleportation than Obito, and a plethora of sealing jutsu. People think that Minato has nothing to kill ppl like Hashirama, but he's been shown to have different sealing jutsus for various situations, meaning his sealing jutsu set isn't defined. The fastest ninja ever using a teleportation spell and instant kill via fuinjutsu would make him more dangerous than Hashi.

[@MrSasukeSusanoo]

Yeah, part 1 Naruto was all about finishing your opponent fast and efficiently, a huge spirit bomb isn't going to save one if the enemy teleports and seals your whole chakra instantly, and if you're not insanely strong in taijutsu as might guy is, then having no chakra is the same as dying.

[@momotheone9700]

I 100% agree with you and thsts why im glad minato arsenal is the way it is without not a lot of grandiose jutsus, just efficiency speed and stealth as well as power, for minato, less is actually more and thats what makes him powerful.

[@zemm9003]

Minato only had close chackra levels with KCM and not by himself.

[@bmg6229]

He still ended up being the second strongest I think the retcon happened around the same time the idea of a "Ten Tails" appeared The Kyubi wasn't the strongest creature and they were all part of a whole, so it allowed Hashirama to show bigger feats than Minato because the Nine Tails wasn't the strongest thing that could ever exist anymore

[@ERGO19]

Tobirama>>>

[@markoglokevic1383]

Second strongest???

[@bmg6229]

@@markoglokevic1383 Hokage until the war arc 1- Hashirama 2- Minato 3- Hiruzen 4- Tobirama 5- Tsunade Mostly because when he was focused he was blitzing everyone and even protected Gai from Madara's orbs Not saying it's close but even the Raikage still considers Minato stronger than Naruto with the Ninetails cape version 1

[@markoglokevic1383]

@@bmg6229 those orbs are not that fast. Even Gaara, Lee and Kakashi were able to react to them. And Gai was moving by kicking the air so he was slower than usual. And Raikage statement happened before Naruto blitzed him, and after that Raikage acknowledged Naruto. Also Tsunade and Bee compared Naruto to Yellow flash aswell.

[@fg009letyrds8]

@@markoglokevic1383 War Arc Edo Minato literally had Kurama mode Boost, and we already seen even Kurama Mode 1 already boosted Naruto enough to be able to suppress 2 to 7 Tails Bijuu at the same fucking time and we know Kurama Mode 2 Naruto is at very least equal to Prime Hashirama, Kurama Mode Minato definitely could compete with Prime Hashirama and grab 4/10 wins.

[@DarthMagog]

Pretty sure Kakuzu ran into Hashirama by mistake one, threw a kunai at him, ran, Hashirama wasn't bothered, and then Kakuzu pretended that he threw hands.

[@DavidelCientificoLoco]

The data book confirmed that they fought each other because ut was Kakuzus mission but he made it out almost unalivedv God bless 🙏

[@kun]

I also think that Kishi write himself into a corner regarding how such an absurdly powerful shinobi like Hashirama died young in his prime and it was simply glossed over.

[@65firered]

I think it is a narrative improvement that he wasn't the strongest, but it's hardly the worst retcon considering later events.

[@bobjohnson1633]

A guy who can teleport can just teleport a bomb into your face and you die. People died from getting stabbed. The first two hokage were probably just stabbed a couple times and died like a normal human. Making hashirama basically immortal and immune to physical harm broke the canon that he was ever killed in the first place.

[@65firered]

@@bobjohnson1633 Don't worry, Zetsu had a plan.

[@SenseiBayan]

Onoki also said that he fought Madara but we all saw how it was in reality. The same was with Kakuzu and Hashirama. Even if you lose in seconds you can still consider it a "fight".

[@kwameopoku506]

Loved the video! It was initially confusing how to scale/rank/understand Minato because I vividly remember how frightened Hiruzen was at the prospect of him coming out to fight in Naruto. With how Kakashi and Jiraiya described him, it had me thinking hes ths best or "the finest" ninja that had been seen. Personally i can live with Hashirama being seen as the strongest because his healing, ninjutstu taijutsu seem actually to be off the acale and the mystery of him was very cool. Having to put together pieces to understand a legend jas always been interesting to me.

[@ah._]

I think Minato was the shinobi that you would run if heard he was in the area because if you saw him you're already dead. However Hashirama was like you couldn't miss him because of his huge attacks. While Minato focused on techniques closer to taijutsu and 1v1 fights(from memory), Hashirama focuses more on destroying large areas and just destroying all of his enemies at once(Also from memory). While I don't know how correct it is because it's been awhile since I watched Naruto this was my interpretation. Minato was fearsome in the battlefield while Hashirama literally destroyed the battlefield

[@Th1sIsMyLegacy]

Originally Hashirama was meant to be one of the strongest guy in a 1v1 or against a small group of powerful opponents and Minato was meant to be the most dangerous, not the strongest but the most dangerous because he was just too fast. In a world where shuriken are the go to ranged weapons, Hashirama was an RPG and Minato was a Gatling gun. If you need to instantly destroy a huge target you send an RPG like with the Bijuu, if you needed to massacre regular humans you load up the Gatling. In the War arc it basically became bullshit where Hashirama and Madara would both easily have been able to kill every village at the start of Naruto.

[@necrofang]

Definitely hyped for a potential Minato Spinoff manga. I'd personally be more interested in the White Fang or maybe even Fugaku, but Minato is definitely the most interesting character to win the vote in the top 10 update they gave us.

[@kuromizu6353]

Bro,legit,your ideas on videos and even on rewrites are actually original Really good job Dygo🤩

[@theking8347]

Orochimaru trying to summon Minato doesn't even make sense with how Edo Tensei is established to work later. He'd have to have to known that it wasn't possible to bring back Minato when he did the ritual in the first place. And it also doesn't say it failed, it says that Hiruzen managed to stop the third coffin.

[@dancorneanu9144]

You do not need to do a preliminary summon. You can summon on field. That was a battlefield tecknique of Tobirama. Oro and Sarutobi thought so. They lacked the knowledge. One of Edo, one of the Reapear.

[@Matyunkin]

I always thought that meme "Kakuzu fight Hashirama" a little bit odd. First of all, Kakuzu could fight weakened version of Hashirama (young, or very ill from his cancer, or whatever bullshit he died from). Second of all - i don't think that Hashirma just spammed his Budda Statue on every opponent he meets. Like remember Kisame and Itachi vs Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi. Akatsuki duo didn't just spam Amaterasu and Giants Sharks into opponents, so fight looks not so bad, even so we all know, Itachi and Kisame could easy kill all three jonins.

[@armorbearer9702]

(4:37) Probably Minato was the most dangerous to him. Perhaps Hiruzen had no counter to the Flying Thunder God technique. Minato's jutsu was one of the few that was able to hit Obito. I doubt Hiruzen had the reflexes to dodge Minato in his old age.

[@zemm9003]

The part 2 Hokage 1st and 2nd would 1 shot Hiruzen and they also had access to Flying Thunder God so yours is a BS explanation.

[@Lieutenant_Dude]

Kakuzu : I FOUGHT THE FIRST!! Also Kakuzu: throws a rock at Hashirama one day and BOOKS it. Hashirama: Ow, the fuck was that?

[@Strongest_under_heaven]

Am I the only one actually disappointed that Kishi made Madara so badass? I really liked the idea of Madara (tobi) in the 5 kage summit arc. Once a great and noble warrior, whose pride got him to fight the first hokage, yet he lost and with it he lost himself. He stalled out Hashirama's and Tobirama's deaths and only then dared to attack Konoha again, only to be once again foiled by this young super prodigy and fail again. With his body so broken by his defeats and age, he no longer even fights himself, but manipulates others and creates terrorist organizations to get what he wants. He now only fights using what he has left, and by virtue of his long life its his wisdom and experience. A coward and a true loser. Really liked this sleazy douchebag perception of him I had. Oh well, badass madara is at least still... Badass

[@ayhamahmad2277]

You just can have guy damaging madara so much that he can't recover and Naruto and sasuke beat him you don't need to introduce aillen or Naruto and sasuke being reincarnation think

[@onlymyself1234]

I think making the first ever guys unstoppably strong goes against the theme of the next generation surpassing the older. Madara shitting on the kage in particular made me quite salty. Minato being strong was better.

[@serge263]

Minato can be considered one of the strongest because of how he fights. And you can also classify the fact that Hashirama and Tobirama were as strong as they were when they were alive, it's possible Hiruzen never saw them fight at 100%. As well, given Orochimaru likely suppressed their personalities. It's possible they did lose their ability to fight at full. I'll add too, Hiruzen also saw Minato's growth as he became a shinobi. I mean, we're talking about the guy that got a "Run on sight" order in a war.

[@jairekambui7738]

Honestly these conversations are fun, but at the end of the day I still respect Kishimoto a hell of a lot for everything. Even after reading a ton of Shonen, Naruto is still my favorite shonen manga. I still think about many of these characters often and what they represent. There’s just something so very powerful and personal about the characters, world and themes of the story that nothing else has even come close to replicating. You can point out all sorts of missed opportunities, plot holes and retcons, but you have to cut this man a lot of slack for writing and drawing a story for 15 years straight. Being a Mangaka is very hard, and the level of story and character quality that Kishimoto was able to give us consistently for 15 years is an astounding feat that in my mind, no one else has been able to achieve.

[@MrSasukeSusanoo]

indeed, and take into account he was working with shonen jump, that magazine pressures mangakas too much, I think more than the average magazine from what I've seen, Kishimoto surely feels like sometimes he didn't know what he was doing, but first he truly wanted to develop the characters in ninja missions, the chunin exam was still really epic and one of the best arcs for me, but it wasn't his original plan to put it so soon in the story, still, because shonen jump pressured him, he had to. Sometimes it isn't the writer at fault, but the thirst for money that ruins some aspects of a story.

[@acejones6336]

Hell yeah! You actually did it. Great video

[@boofyd1459]

I really loved what you did there at 0:51 sir

[@dynosgarcia7645]

Yeah... like when the Sharingan was discount Byakugan

[@orrissonpereira1070]

True for 1 tomoe Sharingan. But 2 tomoe is already better. They can download any ninjutsu they see, any taijutsu they imagine. 3 tomoe can predict movements better than Byakugan, and cast better Genjutus than Kurenai.

[@fg009letyrds8]

Only the 1 tomoe lol, also Byakugan is basically the most basic form of Otsutsuki Dojutsu while Sharingan is just a mutated devolution of Rinnegan, which as we already know normally evolved from Byakugan.

[@MrSasukeSusanoo]

@@orrissonpereira1070 byakugan isn't all about predicting I think?, it's about augmenting your perception tremendously, neji could see everything move in slow motion against kidomaru, sure you can predict things if you know where they're headed, but the power itself is about augmenting perception, not giving you a prediction ability you don't already have.

[@orrissonpereira1070]

@@MrSasukeSusanoo And also see chakra points. But the slo-mo thing is not actually slomo. Its just how the anime shows us Neji's 128 palms. His speed makes it slo mo for him. But not any Hyuuga can do it.

[@FrogWalrus]

It never really was. At no point is the Byakugan claimed to be better than Sharingan. Kakashi just says it has better pure visual benefits.

[@Blindcontroller]

Minato didn’t defeat 1000 ninjas he stopped them. He beat up like 50 instantly and the rest gave up. It goes in to more detail in the written version.

[@abelanteson9196]

Hashirama had to be strong as a result of Madara. Obito was originally meant to be the final villain but Kishimoto had accidentally done such a great job of hyping Madara. The fans loved Madara so much that he couldn't be weak, thereby having his rival Hashirama to be strong

[@Violate..]

Kishimoto had so much errors by making kamui insanely broken and always nerfing obito, doesnt let him use any tailed beast to fight along side him or let him use woodstyle while using kamui none of that, even nerf kamui as juubito, and then there is madara another bunch of errors with that character too so much to mention

[@Oblivion___]

Madara definitely didn't need Perfect Susano'o, he already had EMS, MS skills, Rinnegan and Mokuton. And Hashirama definitely didn't need to match Madara Edo with Rinnegan. It only admits that Madara with the Rinnegan finally surpassed Hashirama.

[@ayhamahmad2277]

​@@Oblivion___that existed to give sasuke a chance against Naruto and the nine talls

[@nillynush4899]

2:50 I do remember that fight, and the horror that the hokage felt at the potential resurrection of the 4th, which he desperately stopped.

[@brendanrudell9559]

0:31 Whenever you show that picture of Naruto and slowly scroll down from the top of the image, it looks at first like Naruto only has four fingers on that hand.

[@r4nd0m1zer2]

I think making him the 3rd strongest legit Shinobi prior to the 6path characters instead of THE strongest was a sensible idea in retrospect

[@orochimarupr]

he's not though

[@christianrowe992]

@@orochimarupr other than madara and hashirama who was touching Minato?

[@orochimarupr]

Who's 1st and 2nd? minato should be 4

[@r4nd0m1zer2]

@@orochimarupr obviously Hasirama is 1 and Madara is 2

[@christianrowe992]

@@orochimarupr hashirama and madara were 1st then second who's third if not Minato

[@hilmalumay]

Remember when Hiruzen shows us being a Hokage seems like a breeze compare to Naruto? Naruto is always stressed and works late. While Hiruzen seems to show he has more idle time because he can roam around the village visit and tells stories to the academy students and Hiruzen always has time to visit Naruto. Either Hiruzen has better time management and experience or maybe Hiruzen has lesser task than Naruto's generation because of the 5 allied Nations?

[@captainchaos5705]

To be fair... Of course Hiruzen has better time management and experience than Naruto. Hiruzen had been hokage (and a mentor to several ninja) for likely as long as Naruto has been alive. Granted this should never be an issue because of Shadow Clone jutsu, but Hiruzen was almost certainly more proficient at the daily activities of Hokage than Naruto

[@kleatise52]

Great video I agree with almost everything except that I believe he had made it clear hashirama was the strongest in early shippuden at the latest. The statues of the ancestors were a strong clue, but by the time Yamato was introduced the significance of wood style and what it did became obvious. You could tell people were plotting for it (danzo, orochimaru, Madara, all ended up doing that) plus they acted like tsunade being his grand daughter was a big deal (should have been a bigger deal tbh)

[@user-qx1id1dt8x]

The cells have regen and many other qualities, doesn't necessarily have to be because of his power, specially considering kakuzu fought him, so I guess he wasn't supposed to level continents at that time👽

[@kleatise52]

@@user-qx1id1dt8x I’m talking about before kakuzu fought him. I’m almost positive by that time it had been obvious that the 1st was labeled the god of shinobi but in hindsight it’s hard to remember exactly because the 4th was thought of as the strongest in the beginning.

[@bobjohnson1633]

Nah, in part 1, it was established that kekkai genkai were OP, and wood style was one such style. Tobirama was said to be absurdly powerful for the simple fact that he conjured hundreds of gallons of water from his chakra. It used to be about skill and how you applied what you knew. In part 2, he just turned it into Dragonball z, and skill means nothing next to a higher power level.

[@kleatise52]

@@bobjohnson1633 power levels were always a thing dude go cry about it. Sasuke literally eats a pill that makes him strong enough to lift Naruto up and toss him on the other side of the river

[@quentinjones6877]

@@kleatise52 Tsunade should've either inherited wood release from Hashirama or learn Sage Mode

[@zoebrennan799]

I just found your content last night and you have me cracking up half your videos thanks.

[@angelm365]

Making the legends within a lore actually legendary is peak kishi

[@DarkWolf-407]

Hiruzen was actually given the title of God of Shinobi. Even as an old man he was thought to be stronger than any Kage ever, other than minato. Gotta love retcons.

[@jacobcampbell8676]

I agree that the Hashirama and Tobirama power scaling was probably a retcon, but Hiruzen might not have seen either the first or the second hokage go all out. He was absolutely taught by them and learned the legends of them, but we don’t know for sure if he ever saw Hashirama fight all out, and he maybe saw Tobirama fight all out, but Tobirama is closer in scale to Hiruzen than Hashirama would have been. As for the 4th hokage’s coffin, he may have figured that the damage was already done with the first and second hokage’s being summoned, and he really wasn’t trying to fight the fourth as well. This would also make some sense as the story seems to follow Naruto’s generation more, who heard the legend of the 4th hokage who most recently saved the village from calamity, so he earned the legendary or strongest title. As time goes on, we forget the legends of the past

[@Sweetlesishere]

7:12 the power scale was lower in part one. It's just natural that with the progression of a shonen enemies get even stronger, so even tho the edo kage were top tier threats, that's the scale that Kishimoto was capable of. For example, the war arc if it was written right before the Orochimaru invasion, the scale would be smaller still but still top tier fights in the verse. Orochimaru's edo tensei here was also not very good so he probably couldn't access the stronger jutsu they each had

[@nicolas2328]

2:02 "As strong as I remember" does not necessarily mean as strong as they are, Tobirama may have never seen them giving their all.

[@bottombarrelbudgetfilms1854]

I haven't read or watched Naruto since the manga ended but I love how channels like you remind me of all these interesting plot points that I have forgotten

[@satviksingh4334]

Hiruzen didn’t want minato to be revived because he was scared that minato would see how he was treating his son

[@zachanikwano]

Ooh

[@Temujin18S]

Haha no

[@ΑΡΙΣΤΟΤΕΛΗΣΛΑΧΑΝΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ]

As for Hiruzen remember he was a teen when Tobirama died and Hashirama died even earlier. So we can argue he never got to see Hashirama at his full power.

[@darrellsimon4462]

I always viewed the coffin scene as him not wanting to fight all 3 of them at the same time

[@KingloTRG]

Nope that wasn’t the implication

[@luvetohate]

Almost every shonen suffers from power scaling issues with certain early fights being stated to be peak or near peak level battles for the series only to become average by later standards. What they often fail to realize is that higher power levels don't make a more compelling story, what matters is the emotional stakes and how it affects the characters we care about, but it's easier to get some people excited by blowing up some mountains or planets I guess...

[@riadel-karout9927]

Love these videos man I’m binging

[@Katanagatari-b2o]

I think the Hiruzen statement can work if we apply some loose headcanon, so something like: Hashirama only ever fought seriously against Madara, and Hiruzen has never seen them go at it. Because we know that Hashirama fodderized all the Biju, so, like 40% of his power was enough for an average biju, and it was the same power level, or somewhat weaker than a 100% Minato, hence Hiruzen, in his unawareness was more afraid of Minato. Also, Hashirama was extremely nerfed in the first Edo Tensei form, which probably matched his power level, which Hiruzen thought was his max

[@delix787]

I believe the third hokage believed Minato would be the most difficult to handle. But not the strongest to handle.

[@Rikoyasha15]

I assumed that he already established the basic story of Madara and Harshirama but when he thought about making them the decedents of the 6 paths he probly thought about making him stronger than when he was 1st seen edo part 1 and probably didn't think about Sage mode at the time of his introduction and used it as a reason to power him up more. That's just my 2 cents

[@shades5322]

13:03 Madara and Hashirama are not in the same league. Madara was trying to kill Hashirama and Hashirama was trying to have a conversation with Madara. The second Hashirama decided he wanted Madara dead....he was dead.

[@Fundleduds]

The random side-tracking into straight up Kakuzu slander is the reason why i love this fanbase.

[@patz5525]

Every one knows kakazu threw a kunai at hashirama and ran away

[@187Blackheart]

What does it say about Orochimaru trying to use THREE hokage against an OLD Sarutobi Hiruzen also say about his strength??? They retconned TF out of the series.

[@thisguy9622]

Maybe Minato was supposed to be the one with the highest potential/talent to become the strongest

[@chalbramwell5353]

yep he had the highest potential but he's wouldnt become as strong as hashirama

[@residentevil25]

in hindsight I think this is the proper interpretation

[@orochimarupr]

I think Shisui had the most potential

[@chalbramwell5353]

@@orochimarupr hell no

[@orochimarupr]

@@chalbramwell5353 Yes he did, he could of been the closest to madara. He also has better body flicker than minato

[@always_serpico]

I’ve never seen a author absolutely shit all over their world building, the way Kishimoto did.

[@Rakerong]

At 2:10 maybe it was something in the manga or another translation for the subs but I clearly remember this scene and Hiruzen's comment as "Same mighty strength as always." when Hashirama smacked him around and then again when Tobirama had him in the chokehold underwater. The thing Hiruzen said then was "As expected, taking on the two of you is difficult." So that never seemed like they were at full, 100% strength. We might be inclined to believe it could be, but unless the translations or source confirmed it that I didn't know about, I would think that they were nerfed.

[@Ennergyiezs]

Dude why is it that all Naruto youtubers talk the same way?

[@jaybronx98]

2:15 hiruzen doesn’t say “they’re just as strong as I remember” he says they look just like how he remembers them. And he said this right after oro summoned them so they haven’t even fought at this point yet. So he couldn’t have said “they’re as strong as I remember them”. And the title of the chapter being “hokage vs hokage” doesn’t mean it’s hokage level characters fighting at their PEAK and you basically conceded that point when you admitted hiruzen wasn’t at his😂 the title implies hiruzen is fighting the previous hokage, hence “hokage vs hokage” but I do agree hashirama was likely retconned to be the strongest later on

[@phobikshiki]

Yeah im only like 4 minutes in and already jottin notes for a debunk💀

[@therealsilverking4802]

Edit: This comment is incorrect. Kakuzu could've fought Hashirama when they were both younger. Hashirama wasn't always Valley of The End level, so maybe Kakuzu fought Kid Hashirama. He fought the guy who was "eventually" known as the First Hokage. (Then the reason he was ostracized from his village was because he returned after a critical failure to assassinate what would've been percieved at the time to be, just a kid).

[@papipepino.]

You’re wrong 😂😂. Kakazu was sent to kill the FIRST HOKAGE. You’re saying he was hokage when he was a kid? Villages weren’t established when they were children. So nope

[@therealsilverking4802]

@@papipepino. Ok, I admit I was wrong. New theory. Kakuzu's quote about the First Hokage states that a forehead protectior from the leaf village reminded him of the first leaf village shinobi he fought, the First Hokage. All we know about the fight itself is that Kakuzu fought Hashirama and lived to tell the tale.... not necessarily that he fought all that well against him. Hashirama could've just let him live (he didn't believe in unnecessary conflict after all). And besides, if he just sends his enemy running back home after a failure, it will send a better message to not challenge his strength again than if he just kills them. If he just kills the assassin then the waterfall village would likely just send another, not fully realising the danger.

[@zemm9003]

This is a good explanation. There is something simpler though. Kakuzu was just lying about it. He never fought Hashirama. He is a bad guy so why are you believing he would tell the truth in the first place.

[@sparknazo]

This is why Harishama himself has become such a weird plot point even his death is a mystery now cause kishi didn’t find importance in him till the near the end of the show

[@kun]

Hol up did you use Ragnarok Online bgm for these?

[@theazureknight9399]

It's pretty wild how Shippuden's power creep forced Kishimoto's hand with some of those retcons. I've heard people talk about how the manga's first panel saying that the nine tails could destroy mountains with its tails as an example of how Naruto doesn't have power creep, but the nine tails was supposed to be a mythical demonic beast, not a human, not a ninja. And in the panel it was said that Minato merely sealed it, he didn't beat it in a fight. People also talk about the Shukaku battle, but once again, the Shukaku wasn't throwing around chakra nukes every 5 seconds like the tailed beasts in Shippuden, it was throwing sand shuriken and air bullets. And Gamabunta did most of the heavy lifting in that fight, Naruto just summoned him and woke Gaara up by punching him in the face. Kakashi vs Zabuza is another bad example. They summoned water dragons and Kakashi used a jutsu that caused a small flood, but then again, they did that right next to a giant friggin river. And by this point they were both supposed to be elite ninja, close to the best in their villages. Look at Orochimaru vs Hiruzen. This was supposed to be a top level fight between some of the strongest ninja in the world. And in this fight all Hiruzen did was make shadow clones, throw tile shuriken, spit elements, summon a ninja animal and the reaper death seal. Now compare that to the top level fights in Shippuden, it's ridiculous. Ninjas in Naruto were never supposed to be like "real life ninjas" I get that, they're more like military mages, but the massive scale of the battles between part 1 and later part 2 definitely increased and it was jarring, that's why so many people notice it. The power creep is a thing. Kishimoto is a known Dragon Ball fan, so I get wanting to make huge scale battles with massive explosions and your main character destroying a part of the moon with his attacks, but couldn't he have done that in his next manga?

[@ayhamahmad2277]

Madara and hashirama strength and fight was already established in the part one we were told how madara and hashirama fight created the final valley and madara was being hyped since part one and all of Shippuden so he needs to be powerful

[@GeneFOX70]

In 2008 Kishimoto said Minato was the strongest dead character.

[@chalbramwell5353]

no

[@orochimarupr]

He's not lmaoo

[@josephhamori574]

I mean he CAN literally do anything by simply wanting too.

[@ryanmitindonga5770]

Hiruzen was also stated to be the strongest hokage

[@LightningXXI]

That's yet another retcon, originally I believe it was Minato > Hiruzen > Hashirama and Tobirama Things changed over time

[@hello-mx6sf]

Naruto and hashirama are the first and second strongest hokage and the hokage's with most chakra and both of them are reincarnation of sage of six path younger son

[@NightBat-vc5jx]

@@hello-mx6sf They're addressing the statements made during Part 1 when much of Part 2 wasn't thought out

[@chalbramwell5353]

@@LightningXXI ur wrong if you belive than

[@EternalBrightness3]

@@LightningXXI ​ Eh, i wouldn’t say it’s a retcon. In chapter 619, page 1, Suigetsu addressed Hashirama as “a God of shinobi” as opposed to “the God of shinobi” because their can be more than two. Young Hiruzen just happened to be featless, but his battle with Orochimaru & the Edo assure us that he was greater than Hashirama in his past.

[@Meekmillan]

7:48 Having flashbacks to Noodles vs Swagkage in the Pain vs Kakazu debate. That boy Noodles had a mental breakdown cause of that video lol

[@DavidPLopez]

No guys you are all mistaken, the retcon started when the akatsuki clan started collecting the bijuus... I was always concern when they defeated them, that how "Minato" the fourth, the strongest hokage+Hirusen, and the entire konoha been the strongest village even... Could not restrains, seal or defeat the ninetails... So that drastically dimished Minato power level to the akatsuki.

[@shadowslayer9988]

It was stated that Kakuzo fought Hashirama and he lost badly and was ousted from his village because of it.