How To Destroy A Story In One Episode

How to destroy a story in one episode. Naruto Shippuden, and Naruto as a whole is a great manga and anime. However, in the Naruto War Arc, the worst scene in the history of manga happened when Zetsu stabbed Madara Uchiha in the back, bringing Kaguya Otsutsuki into the story, something that ruined Naruto for many different reasons. Today we will explore why the Zetsu Retcon destroyes the Naruto story.
When Zetsu betrayed Madara, this Akatsuki character that was never prominent in the story became essentially the main character in the Naruto series. Let's take a look at what happened after that.
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[@DygoKnight]

Who's the WORST Naruto character?

[@IsaacthekingSIU]

Burrito

[@scaryscarecrow5478]

Kaguya Lol

[@griffix2841]

Zetsu by a mile

[@liaonce]

in terms of hating the character, danzo but it's not like he hurt the story. its easily zetsu, kaguya at least had cooler visuals and some level of being a character. zetsu was just kinda there the whole story for nothing until the end

[@MrHatTheHat]

kaguya

[@nathanielreichert4638]

Kishimito revealing Zetsu was the orchestrator of all of Naruto and thereby ruining the story was all a part of Aizen’s plan.

[@bobowon5450]

Don't let this fact distract you from the fact that grey fullbuster tried to seal Luffy in a genjutsu

[@magnusm4]

And then it turns out they were all tricked cause some guy asked Kaguya in the past "Would you kindly betray everyone".

[@primary2630]

Lol aizens plan

[@pixx6974]

​@@primary2630😂

[@anibal5845]

Bleach is definitely better than Naruto, I'm ready for people to wake up to this fact already.

[@veskotalisman]

imo its hilarious that zetsu backstabbed madara, the madara who with no eyes 1 shot SM naruto and dodged all EMS sasuke attacks. now he has 3 of the most powerful eyes in the show, the 10 tails, and is fully adapted to his body, yet he gets backstabbed by a thing that got blitzed by CHOJURO. gotta love late naruto - boruto

[@D_Owo]

he was giving a speeh to team 7 and believed there were no enemies behind him. also zetsu was his most trusted comrade so it rlly isnt that surprising

[@amogus1415]

@@D_Owo sage mode,kurama emotion sensing,spsm,sharingan precog🗿🗿

[@D_Owo]

@@amogus1415 he didn’t sneak behind naruto tho did he💀💀💀 why would naruto had be any obligation to tell madara that zetsu was behind him and abt to kill him, madara most likely wouldn’t believe that would he sasuke and kakashi also had no obligation to tell madara either and I’m fairly certain they weren’t expecting madara’s most trusted ally to suddenly stab him in the back

[@amogus1415]

@@D_Owo madara has sage mode,he has kurama(you dont need kuramas cooperation to have emotion sensing kcm1 naruto did it),he has six paths powers,and he has the ems and the rinnesharingan which grants precog.

[@D_Owo]

@@amogus1415 madara wasn’t in kcm mode tho and madara was facing in the opposite direction of zetsu

[@guernica5413]

I have no issues with Kaguya as a piece of lore in Naruto world, my problem is her being a villain on the main story.

[@rajaryan4424]

She might have worked in that regard if her story was better written and written as only Hagaromo's mother, nothing to do in the present day

[@tribopower]

I would only push her for the boruto story, there were so many interesting ways to make Madara work as a final villain, with a few ways to defeat him... the excuse that Kishimoto gave "Madara is too powerful I don't know how to defeat him, so let me bring an enemy more powerful to do so"

[@D_Owo]

fr

[@justinarzola4584]

I probably would have preferred Kaguya to just be a side character in sage of six paths backstory but not a main villain.

[@D_Owo]

@@tribopower he was rushed to do it tho. i am sure that if he wasnt trushed it woulda been more satisfying

[@InfernosReaper]

Yeah, Tobi's reveal as Obito was decently setup. His reveal as the secret leader of the Akatsuki even made sense because Tobi came off as being a bit "too goofy" to the point where he *had* to be someone who was very powerful to even be allowed around this den of murderous lunatics. Also, moments where cracks in the fool facade did appear here and there. His claim to be Madara was dubious of course, even if we didn't already figure he was probably Obito.

[@amiablereaper]

Honestly claiming to be madera was a good bit. Makes sense he'd take on the name of such a strong ninja and the fear that came with it, as a sort of mask below the fool facade

[@Undone545]

Obito claiming to be madara added an air of mystique. It was like in mgs 2 people thought the terrorist leader was solid snake. But us the player knew it couldn't be solid snake

[@lemonworm]

Tobi/Obito was a great and well formulated character who unfortunately had to get their arc resolved in the stinky part of naruto.

[@Yin12356Yang]

@@lemonwormsay what you want, his character wasn’t that well planned out. If he was, Obito and Zetsu wouldn’t have had that conversation where Sasori died.

[@Noobie2k7]

Yup. Imo Madara would have never come back at all. Neither would Hashirama have been brought back again. Madara would have been kept as this mythical figure everyone was shitting their pants over. Bringing him back was nothing but fan service. Obito being the final villain would have been fine. Wouldnhave even made more sense if we went from Obito to Kaguya. Bringing back Kaguya made Bringing Madara back at all pointless as he achieved absolutely nothing. I think people would have accepted Kaguya more if we never got Madara.

[@joelthomas6517]

The problem was that Kishimoto didn't plan ahead with regards to Kaguya. If we had come across a temple or two that enshrined her as a moon goddess it would have made for a much more interesting story.

[@Faude18]

Kishimoto was never much of a planner. When he started writing the manga his grant plan for the series was Naruto fighting Sasuke at some point and to be fair their 2 main fights were pretty good. But i really like your addition. It would've been great. Place Zetsu next to the shrine for one panel and we had the connection, but it's obvious that Kaguya wasn't planned from the start and probably not even as the final boss at the start of the war if one has in mind that the whole war spanned 150+ chapters.

[@didack1419]

I think he just betrayed his story. The addition of Kaguya and the Outsutsuki allows for the story to have an open ending and for Boruto to be its continuation.

[@everburnerfish]

​@@didack1419i always believed it was more of Shonen Jump and his editors betraying it, I made the assumption that they wanted an extension to the story because it was a big money maker and forced him into extending and Kaguya was his choice of doing so, editors are known to push for changes with money on their minds, big example is when Oda's editors tried to stop him from killing off Ace in One Piece because of his popularity and their plans to use him for marketing

[@didack1419]

@@everburnerfish But did they have that much leverage over Kishimoto to force him to do that?, maybe they do. I was already assuming that the idea was not originally his, only that he had the final decision.

[@azidahaka8543]

I am sure kishimoto didn't wanted to even make kaguya's character but he has written himself into a corner and was pushed by Jump to make a new alien villain so that the upcoming series can have villains from her family.

[@critterbugcharms]

I actually loved Zetsu’s design initially, and was really bummed when it became clear he would not have any significant feats. Oh, how I wish I was still living in that world..

[@justinarzola4584]

Exactly, the way kishimoto set him up you would think he would have more powerful than he was.

[@ShenWulong98]

You could with the infinite tsukuyomi

[@D_Owo]

@@justinarzola4584 wdym?

[@justinarzola4584]

@@D_Owo Zetsu never showed any feats of strength during the series even though kishimoto made it seem like he was holding back something, All he did was possess Obito for a while to get chakra and stab Madara even though Madara could've stopped him easily.

[@diothethotslayer1451]

@@ShenWulong98 88,iiiiu I iii uiii

[@thegreatfusili4673]

I don’t think that this is what ruined Naruto. The war arc being a bloated mess of retcons, asspulls, clumsily tied together plot threads, and haphazardly shoved in lore ruined the series well before it got Zetsu.

[@demetrioshilton5328]

Pretty much just commented this. I’m glad you harped on this one the ninja war was a bad idea through and through. Kind of like a give em everything at once button. After Pain Arc a time skip to that 5-kage summit where the Akatsuki have gon into hiding honed their skills and Sasuke is their new operating leader much older seasoned. Boom he does attack with EM Sharingan so there’s more badass stuff but nicely paced…and then maybe go from there up until we find a better way to incorporate new villains instead we got frickin oRoChImArU KaBuTo bLaCk ZeTsU

[@1BuFo]

Nothing ruined Naruto because it was/is still a great story.

[@1BuFo]

@@demetrioshilton5328 The war arc wasnt a bad idea at all, but Shonen Jump rushing Kishimoto to finish the war arc in a hurry, THAT is what ruined the war arc but not the series as a whole.

[@BILD2057]

@@1BuFo the war arc is a joke.

[@SushiBurritoPapi]

@@1BuFo unable to find flaws in the things you love means you don’t truly love it at all. War arc was trash but the series is still a staple in anime

[@Kiluei]

One of my biggest issues with Naruto is how much gets retconned. So many plotpoints that were adding in later on through flashbacks often were just enormous asspulls. Like Naruto and Sasuke's friendship didn't feel earned, so Kishimoto had to go back and add flashbacks where Naruto and Sasuke met each other at an even younger age. While in the original story they clearly didn't know each other and met at Ninja academy. Things like that always just made me dislike the show more and more.

[@ignipotent7276]

how do you know that they clearly didn't know each other🤔👀

[@Kiluei]

@@ignipotent7276 That was clearly shown at the start of the series. They didn't know each other.

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

Should I even say, at this point, "The feudal lords"? As somone who finished the anime (no fillers), I still don't understand the Naruto world. We went from feudal lords using ninjas in military scale, or smaller scale with missions, to just... A few villages dotted around the very small world fighting for... swathes of infinite forest, desert and grassland? I wonder why none of these villains had plans like "I'm going to cut off Konoha from food/water". Concepts like land and food are irrelevant in geopolitics - only secret jutsus and powerful ninja are factors.

[@Kiluei]

@@Klongu_Da_Bongu The entire Naruto story wasn't thought out well. Naruto fans would come for my head for saying this. But Naruto was really a combination of things Kishimoto found cool. He clearly loved Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter dearly and was a huge Togashi fan. Just look at the way the Chuunin Exams were set-up. It was literally a Hunter Exam rip-off, which Togashi did first in the HxH manga and Togashi did even more first in YYH during the Genkai Exams. Just look at the elements in the Chuunin Exams. Its fully based on the Hunter Exams. The portion in the forest for example in Naruto goes almost like the one in HxH. Even the antagonist plays a similar role. Hisoka being a weird creep, hunting the young Hunters vs Orochimaru doing the exact same thing vs the young Ninja's. Both taking place in a dangerous forest. Orochimaru leaves his mark on Sasuke for a future encounter. Hisoka punches Gon and ''leaves his mark'' for a future encounter. In Naruto there's a written portion. In HxH Gon stating he'd be bad at a written portion and there isn't any written exam. Which Kishimoto did the opposite from. Same with the tournament at the end. Togashi did something that subverted expectations. Kishimoto did a standard tournament. But even there there's a lot of similarities. For example Guy holding Rock Lee back from doing his ''forbidden technique.'' Bushy brow Rock Lee, who's character is based on hard work. Its completely based off of Wing and Zushi. Wing stopped Zushi in a similar way from using a ''forbidden technique'' and Zushi has literally the same eyebrows and also based on hard work. The HxH manga was already past Heavens Arena so Kishimoto used that as inspiration. Then there's the core strength of HxH: Gon and Killua's friendship. I'm completely convinced that Kishimoto loved the direction HxH was taking with those 2 so he heavy handedly wanted to do the same between Sasuke and Naruto while their friendship was never earned and that brings me back to my original point. He then had to fix things through retcons and flashbacks. Even look how Sasuke has electrical based powers, exactly like Killua. Kakashi's design was also based on Killua. And the funny thing is. When you look back at Kishimoto's pilot manga chapter for Naruto, before HxH came out. It lacked all the HxH elements he later on added after HxH came out. The Naruto pilot manga had Naruto in a more modern world. Then he added the things he found cool: Ninja's, Togashi, Dragon Ball.

[@AnonYmouSchris19]

@bluellua6025 thank you. I can tell he copied a lot, because shippuden fells incompetent in writing especially after the pain arc with a LOT of retcons just with more emotional writing, which sells to casual audiences.

[@miguelangelmendez7767]

Black Zetsu was trying to pull a Aizen Plot, without being Aizen.

[@jellythewomanconsumer1590]

More like aizen was trying to pull a black zetsu plot.

[@Zavthegreat3196]

@@jellythewomanconsumer1590😂😂 Nice one

[@f1fanatic241]

@@jellythewomanconsumer1590 aizen was written before zetsu young one 😂

[@f1fanatic241]

@@jellythewomanconsumer1590 but bleach would be considered a successful anime where as naruto is big in Japan and that’s it thanks to boruto 😂

[@jellythewomanconsumer1590]

@@f1fanatic241when did the chapter that showed zetsu betraying madara release?

[@ClearMindMediax]

ive been saying this for years. The way they handled Madara totally killed the story for me. For YEARS Madara was built up just to be taken down by zetsu and some mother we just found out about. Feels like They did this little plot twist just to make way for the Boruto series.

[@Fearz792]

That’s why they did it

[@robertterrell7057]

@@Fearz792 cope

[@theazureknight9399]

That's exactly what it was. They already knew that Boruto was gonna be a thing before the Naruto manga ended, that's why they introduced aliens at the last minute. Greed, that's what it all came down to.

[@Bananasforthesoul]

The black zetsu take down was planned from as far back as the hashirama/madara flashback. Black zetsu was watching the fight, you can even see hashirama glance at him near the end. Then it goes back to it when the reveal happens from his perspective.

[@Bananasforthesoul]

For reference, this was chapter 626.

[@dandydante7924]

Zabuza died for this...

[@DANIELReedskeep]

According to black zetsus plan

[@KhaosFrosty]

@@DANIELReedskeep That might ironically make sense. Zabuza went rogue because he wanted to overthrow the Fourth Mizukage's tyrannical reign. And we know that the Mizukage was only like that because Obito was manipulating him with his Sharingan. And since Zetsu acted as Obito's guide, he could have told Obito that it would be beneficial to mess with the Mizukage to weaken the village or goad Obito into taking revenge against the village for causing Rin's death.

[@peepysprite]

Good.

[@lycan2494]

This video is so cap. Black zetsu was never a retcon. He was foreshadowed since part 1 when he watched naruto and sasuke fighting at final valley. This channel is getting blocked so fast.

[@DevelonLP]

@@lycan2494 ^me when i only listen halfassed through a video

[@Nyrufa]

Itachi being a good guy is absolutely a retcon. If he wanted to protect his brother, he would not have deliberately encouraged him to dedicated his entire life to becoming an avenger for his clan. He would not have explicitly told him to kill his best friend for power, and he certainly wouldn't have traumatized him into a comatose state that could only be healed by Tsunade, who abandoned her life as a doctor after being traumatized by the death of her family! If it hadn't been for Naruto and Orochimaru, Tsunade was perfectly willing to let Sasuke die in the hospital! So much for trying to protect him!

[@civilwarfare101]

Remember how the Senju was treating the Uchiha like shit? Oh yeah every girl in class was fawning over Sasuke instead of being scared of him.

[@lycan2494]

This video is so cap. Black zetsu was never a retcon. He was foreshadowed since part 1 when he watched naruto and sasuke fighting at final valley. This channel is getting blocked so fast.

[@sebastianrodriguez8692]

@@lycan2494 What a bitch of a comment. lol

[@GoldbergToastyBred]

@@lycan2494 Yup this

[@hyperswanton1585]

@@lycan2494 That wasnt foreshadowing otherwise every information character could potentially be the grand master of every story

[@Brendanj101]

There was a retcon with Akatsuki, that being the rings, they made a big importance to the rings, Tobi going for Sasori's ring, along with I believe them mentioning getting Orochimaru's ring.

[@demetrioshilton5328]

Facts the rings meant absolutely nothing the cramming must’ve been I save the akatsuki got screwed over

[@BenganGamer]

Thats not a retcon

[@dancho0012]

@@demetrioshilton5328 They needed all the rings OR someone with the Rinnegan to use the Ten Tails empty husk (but they had Nagato so yeah rings were useless)

[@bernardmartins1093]

@@demetrioshilton5328 they needed the rings. For fashion reasons. You got to love your painted nails right

[@bcb5696]

@@BenganGamer yes it lol do you know what a retcon is

[@kimanireid6111]

Saying it was Zetsu all along also absolves every single villain of their actions

[@totmgsrockxd9900]

@@girlbossperiod Hhhh... Let me quote a comment from descendant of artorias: "A cycle of manipulation is infinitely less interesting and deep than Pain's idea of the cycle of pain. The cycle of pain is a commentary on human nature, about how violence leads to more violence and how silly notions like tribalism lead to humanity being incapable of understanding one another and living in peace. This amazing theme gets ruined the second you realize that in the Naruto universe there literally would've no conflict if not for one objectively evil alien. Imagine how lame it would've been if Pain asked Naruto how he would solve the cycle of hatred and his response was "believe it or not literally all we have to do to create world peace is kill that black Zetsu guy lmao." What does that say about human nature? That all of our problems would be solved if we just get rid of the evil aliens?"

[@Wnuzellion]

@@totmgsrockxd9900 you do know even without Zetsu Madara is literally responsible for almost everything

[@Wnuzellion]

@Conquest Re read what I said, if Zetsu didn’t betray Madara then Madara would be the guy who caused everything

[@sarafontanini7051]

Its stillw eird to me how OROCHIMARU Gets off scot free despite murdering LITERAL CHILDREN and wearign the corpses of his murder victims as meat suits. Like....he still did those things. ANd hes not sorry he did those things either. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOUJUST LETTIG HIM BUM AROUND. WHY.

[@kimanireid6111]

@@sarafontanini7051 Kabuto who used countless of innocent people as sacrifices for the reanimation jutsu is now not responsible for his actions what a f**king joke that now is and to top off he suddenly becomes good after Naruto and Sasuke had died Smh it's one the biggest bullsh*t in the entire war arc , Kabuto should've f**king died instead of suddenly turning good.

[@scottbisco6793]

I was considering that Itachi being good was a retcon as well... I rewatched the whole series, and read some of the manga to see if the perspective was different. I found that Itachi's scenes in the original series were far more sinister, and they were literally remade to make him seem less of a dick when he says certain things.

[@violentscorl697]

THIS!!! Everyone always makes him out to be an angel, but his whole character was retconned because people thought he was cool. In my personal opinion the whole „he killed THE ENTIRE FUCKING CLAN EVEN THE KIDS to prevent a Coup“ yadda yadda made no sense at all. Why not just take out the ones who wanted to rebel? There were obviously other Uchiha like Shisui who wanted to be a bigger part of the village.

[@mawandembatha6622]

​@@violentscorl697 1. He was 13 at the time and was given very little choice. Imagine the entire weight of a decision being on the shoulders of someone his age 2. The women and kids were actually killed by Obito, not Itachi. Itachi only killed the Uchiha Shinobi who could fight

[@violentscorl697]

@@mawandembatha6622 first of: women were also kunoichi so why the differentiation? Also: Itachi mirdered kunoichi and children too, I mean you literally see it in the scenes of the massacre. He also killed Izumi. He was not a saint and his character was retconned to be some kind of twisted „good guy“

[@wonderfullife5665]

​@@violentscorl697 no he didn't. Although the entire think of killing the clan to save the village is stupid. Itachi doesn't killed the children and women. Atleast According to the anime I don't know about the manga but pretty sure it is same. I'd only itachi could kill the entire clan. Then tbh Uchiha clan is really weak. Like even if there was a coup won't the other shinobi along with itachi would able to stop them. Anyway there would be many other Uchiha who would have opposed the coup.

[@Alpha-xi9oz]

​@@mawandembatha6622 no bro, obito helped itachi on purpose to dispose of the uchiha knowing that they would be problematic, and obito handled the soldiers because itachi would get folded by them

[@MurasakiTsukimaru]

From Zetsu being a Grass Ninja to being created to Madara to suddenly, he invaded Madara's body and just hung out unnoticed for 50+ years doing absolutely nothing until Madara "created" him.

[@FlapNasty3]

I’m so happy I’m not the only one who remembers Zetsu being a Grass Village ninja.

[@forcecaptainoverlordsuprem2964]

@@FlapNasty3 I don't remember this, which episode was this stated?

[@hokkaidosnow6643]

​@@FlapNasty3Yep. I remember this when I was in elementary school.

[@weebarmyunite8968]

No black zetsu did a lot of things he basically raised asura and Indra he basically created everything we know in the Naruto universe making a butterfly effect all leading to the point when he resurrected kaguya but zetsu sucks so bad as a character but technically he didn’t do nothing he kinda created the whole Naruto world but I personally think that kaguya and zetsu shouldn’t have existed instead night guy kills madara and guy it’s the perfect ending because guy is perfect example of what Naruto stands for so that’s how the war should have ended

[@MurasakiTsukimaru]

@@weebarmyunite8968 I agree with all that but the "Doing nothing" claim was for the 50+ years (or however long. Last time I tried to figure out the timeline, my nose started bleeding) he was inside Madara in between Madara dying and Madara "creating" him just before he re-died.

[@andyquinn3996]

I once read about a rumor circulating around, that Kishimoto actually wanted to add Kaguya to his story, he also wanted to add aliens and samurais to the story, the reason he didn't do that was because his editor at that time didn't allow him, because the story wouldn't make any sense, but at the beginning of the great war arc, his editor got changed, because Kishimoto refused to keep on working with said editor, because he claimed that the editor was restricting creativity and the way he wanted to tell the story, so the magazine accepted and changed his editor, and this new editor is the one that allowed him to do a lot of changes going into that arc, and that's why we got aliens and samurai that came out of nowhere, because he wanted to create a story using those elements. In fact, he wanted to create a story using samurai and aliens so badly, that he went and created samurai 8, a manga so bad, that it ended up getting canceled, I know that those are just rumors, but once you analyze the way the story went down the drain after the pain arc, and the fact that he created samurai 8, and that said manga got canceled, you just have to wonder, are those really empty rumors, or is there some true and validity in them.

[@1BuFo]

But what wasnt a rumor is that Kishimoto was being rushed the entire war arc for the manga to end by Shonen jump. That is what ruined the final arc but not the entire series which is still great.

[@bernardocarneiro4081]

Shoulda stuck with the first editor...

[@andyquinn3996]

@@1BuFo there are a lot of things that ruined that arc, the plot holes and favoritism the mangaka gave the uchihas, specially itachi, the power scaling getting out of control, hashirama's cells, the way the hokages were resurrected, but we can universally agree, that what ended up ruining the series completely, was the introduction of kaguya and black zetsu's plan on how to bring her back.

[@andyquinn3996]

@@bernardocarneiro4081 we can all agree on that, maybe the story would have ended better if he would have kept said editor around.

[@ExeErdna]

Paying attention to Boruto being fairly bad too. Our boy Kishimoto was one of those creatives that NEEDED a harsh editor to keep them from having ice cream jutsus, and Lu bu flying on housecats. Not everything a creator does is good and sometimes limits help them do better.

[@kylecronin3379]

My biggest thing about kaguya is that they did the same twist twice. Madara betraying Obito was crazy then he got played up to be crazy strong. Then when the big fight for him and Naruto come they just say nah let's do the EXACT thing we did with Obito and madara

[@saidouassou9030]

well, Obito played Nagato, Madara played Obito, and Zetsu played Madara...

[@AidanDonnelly-x9i]

oh wait! maybe because its a theme!

[@allcapsintheparenthesis]

@@saidouassou9030the church meme

[@TheMightyBattleSquid]

​@@saidouassou9030we joked about this in my high school anime group at the time. The villains just formed this insane conga line, each time chanting "I'm the REAL big bad!"

[@ManyTanks1]

The backstabbing of madara itself is actually a great thematic payoff for his character, it’s the twist that zetsu was the one manipulating the whole world and wasn’t actually madara’s will that was shit. Honestly, if zetsu was truly madara’s will made manifest, that would’ve been brilliant writing as it would mean/show us as readers madara was so far gone in his attempt to right the wrongs of the shinobi system that he couldn’t even have his own back.

[@dominicdo2719]

I was following the manga as it was coming out. I remember being super confused when I saw black Zetsu take out Madara. More confusion ensued when Kaguya popped out in his place. I remembered having to read the explanation a few times to actually understand what was going on because that shit came out of nowhere. No lead ups, no hints, nothing.

[@Danny_Deleto]

Same, it completely destroyed the momentum of the story.

[@civilwarfare101]

I remember playing Storm 4 and I was like, "so everything in Naruto happened because Black Zetsu was a mama's boy".

[@lycan2494]

This video is so cap. Black zetsu was never a retcon. He was foreshadowed since part 1 when he watched naruto and sasuke fighting at final valley. This channel is getting blocked so fast.

[@Clooger-]

​@@lycan2494ldiot.

[@Max-fw3qy]

​@@lycan2494 true man! Kaguya appearing out o f*cking nowhere was the best. I did not see that comming, it was nice to be surprised for once.

[@chrishudson9525]

I think that Madara as a villain was already somewhat ruined by how stupid his resurrection plan was, and how he ended up being resurrected in large part by the stupidity of an Orochimaru knock-off, rather than a foolproof plan, so I'm not sure that the introduction of Kaguya made it all that much worse, just more convoluted and random. Having multiple layers of villains all trying to outplay one another and Black Zetsu be the best of them all did seem pretty stupid though, I will admit. I would say however that Naruto and Sasuke being of a particular special lineage was worse from a story telling perspective because it made all of their previous hard work and sacrifice seem much more hollow and pointless, being that the story was flat-out making them the chosen ones with a destiny that was pre-determined. I think that having Obito be the final villain would have been fine as well.

[@reisen9584]

probably because obito isnt that strong to begin with. So he need a stronger villain that CAN actually make the tsuki plan happen. Unless obito and kabuto managed to kill like half the strong ninja, those 2 just werent enough of a force, especially added with sasuke and the 5 kage.

[@chrishudson9525]

@@reisen9584 Kishimoto could have just made the story more about intelligent planning than power. But there's so much ass-pull powerups previous to Kaguya showing up, there's really no reason why he couldn't just give Obito a powerup. I mean, being that Black Zetsu was strong enough to punch a hole through 6 Paths Madara's chest, maybe he could have just merged with Obito, and turn him into super Obito... Who cares really, it's all a bunch of stupid nonsense, but Kishimoto could have at least simplified the nonsense a little bit.

[@Science-is-everything-]

Naruto and sasuke were not destined to be strong. They were destined to fight and kill each other. But naruto broke the cycle and defeated destiny by refusing to kill sasuke. Naruto proved that neji was wrong about being unable to change your fate. I don’t understand why so many people misinterpret the the themes of naruto.

[@Science-is-everything-]

Naruto and sasuke were not destined to be strong. They were destined to fight and kill each other. But naruto broke the cycle and defeated destiny by refusing to kill sasuke. Naruto proved that neji was wrong about being unable to change your fate. I don’t understand why so many people misinterpret the the themes of naruto.

[@chrishudson9525]

@@Science-is-everything- You're talking about a theme that was injected into the series later on, which is partly what I'm criticizing, when we find out explicitly that Naruto and Sasuke have an intertwined lineage. In the beginning the the series that theme was just one friend trying to save another friend. Much more simple and relatable. I'm however talking about a different theme that was present from the very beginning of the series. That theme being that through hard work and sacrifice, both characters were enabled to take on whatever opposition faced them, even if at times it was one another. As the series goes on and on however, that theme becomes eroded until finally Kishimoto just doesn't give a shit any more and decides to give them both massive power boosts via Hagoromo in the afterlife. THAT'S the theme I'm talking about, and that's what Kishimoto destroyed. So if you're going to criticize someone, know what you're talking about first.

[@taldal1923]

to be fair he did retcon the whole series multiple times throughout the entirety of Shippuden. At first, Shukaku was a monk who was deserted in the desert and became a giant sand creature that went on murdering rampages, and Kurama was a nine tails fox spirit that would be summoned from large amounts of conflicts then Kishimoto introduced the SPS and retconned all of the tailed beasts. The same goes for Sasuke's Kusanagi sword, the thing could cut through anything and then Kishimoto retconned it so it would only do so when lightning chakra was fed to it, and then to not having the ability whatsoever. I low-key gave up on caring for any of the retcons after the Sasuke thing and fully gave up by the time of the Kage summit. Oh and if anyone else noticed small retcons in the series that you didn't like please leave it in the replies to this comment.

[@orochieditzz]

There are more retcons Like Hashirama being the strongest hokage and his cells serves any plote hole

[@Jamseth_Ingramious]

@@orochieditzzWho wouldn't want the DNA of the "god of shinobi"?

[@OtakuHeavenYT]

​@orochieditzz he was the strongest maybe compared to naruto but no other hokage can compare to him. His cells are not a recon they have been a point through out naruto even starting at third season.

[@alois9206]

Kakashi being a jounin early to being shown in chuunin exam with the same age as everyone else

[@Troop-]

Kishimoto is an awful writer, he constantly did asspull after asspull. I was following the manga around the time of the war arc and boy every week was some sort of stupid asspull. The peak was when kid obito came back from the grave to magically give kakashi 2 mangakeyo sharingans and he flawlessly summons susano despite not even being an uchiha... The outrage was crazy around then lol

[@ninshu6paths659]

I’m sorry, but the best antagonist in naruto is easily pain.

[@DygoKnight]

fair, yet a normie take

[@ninshu6paths659]

@@DygoKnight i mean, character, origins, motivation,relation to the main character, powers, narrative potential, themes,design,symbolism,atmosphere…he is just way above the rest. This is not just some personal opinion, this is a throughout analysis and honestly pain is above the rest.

[@popsme11]

@@ninshu6paths659 def normie af

[@demetrioshilton5328]

What other villain other than a coveted Uchiha is better? I think he makes the best point about who the villain is. Not only did Pain show range in character from seemingly defenseless & no courage. Then progresses to decent enough strength to protect his friends. Only after seeing his comrades die in battle and his idols being corrupt did he choose the dark path. He used his sensory ability to watch over an entire..come on that’s not a normie take you’d do a video on that soon enough.

[@Cloke100]

A normie take would be Madara, someone preferring Pain as a villain is fine.

[@DougDimmaDab]

Zetsu killing Madara was the anime version of Arya Stark killing the Night king

[@justinarzola4584]

Since zetsu first showed up after Naruto and Sasuke's first fight at the end of part one I knew he would be important or be more powerful than he let on, but instead of making him the final villain they recon it so that he was only there to revive kaguya which was dumb.

[@D_Owo]

it made sense from a narrative point of view

[@Approvedjoey117]

@@D_Owo it wasn’t a satisfying end to such a great villain tho.

[@D_Owo]

@@Approvedjoey117 it may not have been satisfactory I agree with u in that but the writing behind it made sense

[@domicci4460]

Ya he acts like zetsu wasn't the only person that obito would listen to and then madira was a vengeful and single minded makes him easier to manipulate and I agreed with you completely

[@royalfun1031]

@@D_Owo Cope

[@nbHawkeye]

The whole "reincarnation" thing was DEFINITELY a retcon and incredibly stupid, Itachi being the good guy all along possibly was so but this ended up making him a more interesting character in the end which helped the story. Black Zetsu and the aliens attacking the Naruto world on the other hand was just awful. I HATE the ending of Naruto for this and would go so far to call it a bad manga.

[@supesisfodder7427]

Nope disagree about itachi

[@rachelciel3330]

What disturbed me about the "reincarnation" thing was the fact Indra and Ashura lived thousands of years ago and yet only had TWO reincarnations (as explicitly mentioned) and those reincarnations lived so close to each other in terms of timeline. Like Hashirama and Madara were just a bit above 60-70 years before Sasuke and Naruto were born. Like, I expected there were other incarnations in the span of thousands years but NOPE. It's explicitly mentioned Indra and Ashura only had two Reincarnations, TF is wrong with Kishimoto? He completely butchered it.

[@TemujinTheKhan]

@@rachelciel3330 I don't remember it being explicitly stated that Hashirama and Madara were the only previous reincarnations.

[@royalfun1031]

@@TemujinTheKhan Way too convenient

[@nahte123456]

@@rachelciel3330 it's outright Saif that there were other reincarnations, what are you talking about?

[@megasean3000]

I wouldn’t say it was plot destroying, but Madara not being the final villain was such a kick to the groin because we spent the last few chapters excited to see how Team 7 defeat Madara, the guy who can defeat Tailed Beasts with a flick of his wrists at less than half of his current strength. But then to see him die in the most shittiest of ways to make room for the actual big bad was actually the worst part. Zetsu didn’t manipulate _everything._ Only parts that involve the Tsuki no Me plan, specifically getting Senju and Uchiha to fight and to plant the idea of reviving the Ten Tails into Madara and Obito’s heads to put the world into the Infinite Tsukiyomi. Everything else, like Sasuke leaving for Orochimaru, Sasuke defeating Itachi and acquiring the EMS, Naruto learning Sage Jutsu and learning to control Kurama were all just happy accidents.

[@craigyeah1052]

Agreed, and personally, I had a tough time getting hyped about Madara... he already lost once (kinda thought the whole plot about him being alive because Izanagi was dumb). Even with that said, how he died still felt a bit shitty, so sure it wasn't great, but it didn't ruin the whole show.

[@jonhill238]

Double Agreed, Zetsu didn't manipulate every second of the story. That's just a massive overstatement. Madara being killed off by him sucks and Kaguya sucks, but none of the Zetsu shenanigans "ruined the whole story by controlling everything". Honestly I don't even hate the idea of a unforeseen mastermind causing big plot shifts, just unfortunate one of the best villians ever had to be discarded unjustly.

[@azidahaka8543]

​@@craigyeah1052But him reviving himself through izanagi and revealing he had bitten a piece of hashirama's flesh, so he can develop rinnegan years later was very good planning. It was completely different from the sudden ass pull that was black Zetsu's manipulation.

[@ChristianMangaChanel]

I like zestu more,it is the kaguya thing that bugs me.

[@benji963]

@@azidahaka8543 Nah, I think him biting a piece of Hashirama's flesh to develop the Rinnegan years after his death is a bigger ass-pull than someone working behind the scene in the shadows.

[@aquiace]

After all these years, it still burns me too. The entire war arc had massive problems from start to finish. It seemed like Kishimoto threw every idea he ever sketched down into this arc, whether they served the story or not. He should have either cut out half of it or added 2-3 more arcs to let the story breathe.

[@spit-fire]

they honestly should have kept black zetzu as a low key spy type. Keep his back story a mystery, it fits his character

[@thegreatfusili4673]

There’s a LOT of stuff Kishimoto clearly just made up as he went along . But Itachi being a good guy had some pretty clear foreshadowing even back in part one.

[@lordgreed1]

which was handled poorly like it feels likd the mutafuka did more bad than good he should've stayed a bad guy in all honesty

[@theboy1625]

Nah that was definitely changed as Itachis popularity blew up. There was no forshadowing before hand telling otherwise and he was always meant to be a bad guy

[@yungcrunkshawty]

What foreshadowing? Everything he did in Part I was just villainous, he nearly off’d Sasuke with his little genjutsu mind rapery in the hotel, nothing he did Part I alluded to him being not so evil

[@slothrop9345]

@@yungcrunkshawty The flashback during Naruto and Sasuke does some pretty overt hinting at Itachi having more complicated motives. The conversations with the parents, at the time, were kind of mysterious and clearly implied there was SOMETHING going on with the Uchihas, we just didn't know what. Fugaku seems weirdly understanding of Itachi's distancing from the clan, almost if he kind of understands why Itachi might be acting like this (because he's making his son be a spy for the clan). It keeps making a point about how nice Itachi is and moments that just don't seem fitting for someone who only cares about keeping Sasuke around to test his capacity. He even has a whole monologue about how it's an older brother's job to become a wall for the other brother to over-come, even if it means being hated (with him focusing specifically on how Sasuke should "hate him". I would say that, at the very least, Kishimoto wrote Itachi in a way so that he could decide later on in the story whether he was a good guy or a bad guy.

[@jakeb17372]

@@theboy1625 i mean honestly itachi not being the bad guy makes scene given the info in part one from Sasuke's perspective like the amount of shit he could have done but didact would make no logic if he was originally supposed to be a bad guy

[@RetroCinemaKingSpaceTheaters]

The fanfiction in my mind wanted Zetsu to be the "soul" of the ten tails. He started the whole series because he wanted his original form and chakra back. It also could have potentially manipulated Kaguya into doing his bidding. The two sage brothers would have wanted revenge to avenge their mother and save the world. Zetsu could have been a dangerous character for the story and an important one.

[@andresdr]

That sounds like a better plot than what we got lol

[@catking7901]

No because he can just go to jigen

[@IF_Saga]

@@catking7901 who is jigen?

[@martinjahim8665]

@@IF_Saga an otsutsuki in boruto

[@Dave102693]

The “soul” of the Ten Tails is Kagaya though, because Zetsu is a glorified karma seal.

[@thaearthquake]

I followed Naruto from middle school to my junior year of high school and that Zetsu plot twist hurt so bad. After years of consistently following the story through it’s highs & lows, it felt like Kishimoto just took all the years of goodwill built up and slam dunked it in the trash. I couldn’t believe it. Like the Tobi reveal was good enough, this last minute Zetsu/Kaguya twist was so unnecessary. All these years later it still irks me. What a shame.

[@ilovekids-kx1bq]

what would you change?

[@wrestlerdude6955]

I felt the same way after reading the new Boruto chapter. Himawari and Boruto having a piece of Kyuubi inside them or having that type of fantastic power makes sense. But Kishimoto undermined everything Naruto went through, burying him. Kurama blatantly stated, "You're stronger than all my Hosts before," it was eye-rolling that this character, who was barely shown in the manga, was given such an upgrade in minutes, and the previous main character's achievements were watered downed just to hype her up.

[@lycan2494]

This video is so cap. Black zetsu was never a retcon. He was foreshadowed since part 1 when he watched naruto and sasuke fighting at final valley. This channel is getting blocked so fast.

[@wolhaiksong2558]

@@lycan2494 Are you 12 or something ? Why do you keep copypasting the same comment ? lol

[@lycan2494]

@@wolhaiksong2558 are u 12? im 25 kid

[@rajaryan4424]

Man not a single joke in the video, I feel your pain

[@rajaryan4424]

Btw side question - have you read Berserk

[@DygoKnight]

I have not, it's definitely one of those things I should definitely have read but never got down to do it

[@rajaryan4424]

@@DygoKnight well whenever you decide to you'll be in for a ride, it's awesome

[@drackestalentorgen166]

I think that Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner a few times...first in how strong he made Madara....Meaning he had to boost naruto and Sasuke...but then noticed that he over did it to a point so he needed to boost madara again as the 10 tails jinchuriki....basically making him the new sage.... he needed to either boost Naruto again , nerf madara or do something new...he chosed to boost madara and to pull an ever stronger villain that had a huge weakness so even if she was stronger ...Kaguya had an achiles tendon that Madara wouldnt ever have... It was the wrong choise at the wrong time, i wont lie, im glad we got to see Kaguya but i wish it wasnt like that, atlest we got Nartuto using the Ultimate Jutsu , the reverse Harem

[@InboxJYP]

they didn't have to introduce kagyua tho. they could have explained that the sage could be sealed with a particular technique. it could have gone anywhere - but someone made a good point, perhaps they said this up like this for boruto, and in that context it makes more sense

[@tomasdqwx2781]

I think it would be better if she was mentioned in naruto and later used in boruto as some strong enemy

[@hc.117]

This was always planned Zetsu who betrayed Madara was planned since the ending of part 1. The chapters 233 and 234 show Sasuke having a similar reaction as Hashirama (chapter 626) at the fact zetsu observe them and Kakashi said in these chapters how similar the story of Naruto and Sasuke is with the story of Hashirama and Madara (which is a direct foreshadowing of the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura manipulated by Zetsu). Kishimoto could't write in a corner if he planned the defeat of Madara for 8 years before it happened Japanese speaks in 3 ways: Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji. Everyone in Naruto speak in Hiragana except 1 character since his first appearance and it's Black Zetsu. When the divine tree (Kaguya) speak to Madara to absorb her, the dialog was written in Katakana, it's a direct foreshadowing of Black zetsu being his true will. It's for this reason that for us zetsu being the will of Kaguya come out of nowhere when the Japanese are probably aware that this event will happen So yes, Kishimoto always planned this event

[@EskChan19]

@@hc.117 Nah, that's putting way too much thought into a random throwaway line. That Naruto and Sasuke were similar to Madara and Hashirama was just supposed to be a generation thing, showing that history always repeats itself, which was brought up all the way back at the first battle at the valley of the end at the end of Pre-Shippuuden Naruto. It wasn't ment to foreshadow the reincarnation bullshit at all. That would have made little sense that the very story arc before that battle had a major character moment where Naruto makes it a point to asy to Neji that destiny is bullshit and he has to forge his own path. If Kishimoto had already planned that Naruto was just BSing Neji because he was actually the chosen one all along then Kishimoto is an even worse writer than I thought. And nah, that Zetsu "had something up his sleeve" was set up but anything about Madara wasn't planned at the very least before Sasuke killed Itachi. So nah, you're just coping hard and trying to make Kishimoto some masterwriter when really, he did the standard "I will just hint that 3-4 characters in the story have a bigger role to fill and then eventually I'll figure out what that is" thing that most hack writers do.

[@hc.117]

@EskChan19 If you want to know the reincarnation point is actually a cultural problem that Naruto has. This comes from the fact that the Japanese have a very different view of seeing these concepts. I'm sorry if this is a bit long and complicated. This reincarnation, like this story of child of the prophecy are actually Buddhist concepts (the samsara and karma) which are well known in Japan and Asia. Rinnegan literally means "the samsara eye" and karma you generally know what it is (as a reminder if you do good/bad things, good/bad things happen to you).The main concept of this reincarnation is that each person's basic situation is caused by the karma of the actions of their past lives (in this case the basic situations of Naruto and Sasuke were greatly influenced by the actions of Hashirama and Madara) but despite everything they can react in the present by their own actions (which explains the end, and yes this thing is the logical continuity with Neji). Page 70 of Naruto databook 4 also confirms that the cycle of reincarnation in which Naruto and Sasuke are is the samsara. Naruto who is the reincarnation of Ashura is nothing special, it's just a natural phenomenon on how many people view life in Japan (and Asia). Globally, there are between 1 and 1.6 billion people in the world who believe in samsara (Hinduism and Buddhism combined). It's just that here Kishimoto tries to deal with this aspect by showing that even if what happens to you is similar it doesn´t mean that you will make the same choices (as the rikudo says) For the story of the child of the prophecy, the prophecies also exist in his religions. It´s actually the actions specific only to Naruto because what Gamamaru sees is the karma of individuals (page 83 of databook 4 explains that gamamaru has the power to see the karma of individuals, in Buddhism it´s the divine eye power from what I have read). This is again a problem of cultural conception Naruto also has a third level reading on religion (which is basically its main subject if you look deeper) since the conflicts between the Uchiha and the Senju are in terms of beliefs a big representation of the conflicts that exist between Shintoism and Buddhism (which are the 2 main religions of Japan, besides susano, amaterasu, izanami/izanagi etc… come from Shinto folklore),and the manga ends on the fact that it´s by overcoming hatreds and divisions and by advancing together that it will be possible to bring peace and build a better world (moreover for the anecdote, in Japan it´s possible to be believers of the 2 religions). I get these informations from several searches on the internet (wikipedia, interviews and forums), in term of video I recommend the video of Korean Dost on Naruto and also the video, Naruto's Complex Subtext and Themes: Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism if you are interested . I don't try to pretend something. I just watch the facts from what they are Everything in Naruto was planned and make sense but because of cultural differences we couldn't see it unfortunately😕😕😕

[@mwillia1026]

Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner. He made Madara too OP and had to pull some shit out of his ass to get rid of him. There was no way they were beating Madara.

[@5koby4]

Made madara too powerful so needed to introduce an even more powerful character along with shitty lore makes sense.

[@mwillia1026]

@@5koby4 and that’s why the end of Shoppuden sucked lol

[@5koby4]

@@mwillia1026 Agreed whenever I rewatch I always just stop after Naruto beats pain because I dislike the ending so much. I would actually prefer kishimoto retcon it and have Naruto wake up from infinite Tsukyomi and we find out a lot of what happened during the war arc was just his dream.

[@ceshmate1953]

Yes, there was no way of defeating madara so he introduced a more powerfull villain.... makes sense.

[@mwillia1026]

@@ceshmate1953 Kaguya was more powerful but far less intelligent. She got finessed by the sexy jutsu you think she would’ve beat Madara???

[@garrison778]

Looking back. If this wasn’t a retcon and it was hinted throughout that Zetsu had a hidden agenda I think it could of worked. Like itd be cool if black Zetsu was the reason the uzumaki and senju clan dissolving in present day. Because it’s a mystery why those powerful clans are gone.

[@NaughtMax]

The funniest part of the whole black zetsu thing was I accidentally predicted it, as a joke. While watching Naruto I’d successfully predicted a lot and was basically live texting my predictions to a friend as well as getting really hyped when my predictions turned out to be correct, he was also getting hyped up and surprised by how accurate my guesses were. When I off handedly made a joke about how ridiculous this ending was with all the surprise secret mastermind bs, and I said something to the effect of, lmao watch zetsu be the surprise final boss that masterminded everything. I sincerely meant that as a joke because in my mind, that’d be so dumb and pointless there’s no way that’s what happens. I absolutely lost my shit when it was revealed that he was the secret 10D chess grandmaster and while he wasn’t technically the final boss I was still dumb struck. The dumbest thing I could imagine, and then vocalized to a friend, actually happened. Man the war arc was dumb.

[@GrandisArcanum]

Proof?

[@f1fanatic241]

@@GrandisArcanum proof you lost your virginity? Ha, didn’t think so 😊

[@f1fanatic241]

@@GrandisArcanum courts asking oj for proof of his alibi vs white teens asking for proof on KZbin 😂

[@rayvonvelez3129]

It's possible. Many people were predicting tobi was Obito ever since that kakashi gaiden special chapter.

[@jamieervaughn7469]

Did the same exact thing my sole and only reason was just cause there’s was only one of him

[@zirotsero6951]

people: i wish zetsu had more relevance, his design was cool kishimoto: your wish has been granted

[@NotaAura]

the monkey's paw curls a finger

[@distance7721]

I had no idea that Kaguya was an editor mandate. Everything makes much more sense now

[@ahmadazem4167]

She wasnt the guy is waffeling

[@thec4ke]

I haven't been able to find any evidence that this is true.

[@thegatorhator6822]

​@@thec4keyou the type of MF who doesn't believe in air because he can't see it

[@shonyeezy5672]

I feel like if they would’ve had a Orochimaru say something about it in part one for him being obsessed with kimimaru it would’ve at least planted the seed of who the hell was he talking about because he’s definitely one of those characters like Madara and Itachi who just know crazy information like that.

[@thegatorhator6822]

@thec4ke the evidence is reading the manga and seeing it come outta nowhere with 0 foreshadowing and the way it demolished the entire story.

[@thejongshow8821]

This was the beginning of the end now we got boruto…. Black zetsu stabbing madara in the back is symbolic of the writers stabbing us in the back

[@thewanderingartists]

Boruto sends his regards 💀

[@NotTheWheel]

Black Zetsu really did ruin Naruto. It made no sense both from a story structure standpoint and also from a power scaling standpoint. Madara who to this point survived getting hit by a person who used all 8 gates and survived. Madara who dodged a teleportation sneak attack from Tobirama with one eye open. Madara who fought the Tailed beasts blind. Madara who fought an entire Ninja Army by himself. Madara whose back was never taken his whole life except by Hashirama who he respected... Is fisted in the back by a Black Zetsu.

[@Cloke100]

Black Zetu didnt kill Madara, he died because the biju were extracted from him.

[@didack1419]

And from a thematical point of view, which I like to emphasise as separate from the story itself.

[@chadbrad8100]

@@Cloke100 false, you are talking about Jubito

[@Cloke100]

@@chadbrad8100 Madara died because the juubi (kaguya) was extracted from him

[@a1fastyellowgto]

My head cannon is that Madara successfuly got team 7 trapped in the Tsukuyomi. Boruto is just the dream Naruto is having, which explains a lot more than it being the actual reality. Thus, I perceive Naruto as a tragedy, and Boruto proof that Madara won that battle in the end.

[@viannevelvet9560]

Kaguya was an awful villain for me, not only did she steal the spotlight off of Madaran a villain hyped up for seven long years, but she was just bland. She is an alien with no personality to speak of, her backstory is forgettable, she lacks any interesting philosophy or motivations, her powers just resembled DBZ rather than Naruto, and she didn't even last that long against Naruto and his crew.

[@D_Owo]

kaguya wasn't a top tier villain but i dont believe she was bad

[@michaelmeech9743]

Yeah i totally agree it just destroyed the build up of hype just to have a bland character to bring in a super bland anime imo which is Borruto. I really don't care for the Otsutsuki apart from Hagoromo and his brother i know Kaguya was their mother ofc but that's the only redeeming quality i think personally.

[@craigyeah1052]

I know she was sooo bland it's upsetting. Force a little bit of character and motivation in there please. I mean imo Madara was bland too, and his motivation dumb, but hey at least he had one.

[@GentlyUsedFrog]

Or how Naruto told Neji that destiny could be escaped and nothing was written in stone Just for him to be a fucking descendant and inheriting powers because of DESTINY.

[@mrmastaofdesasta6994]

But then again, the entire childhood flashbacks were constantly retconned from "Naruto completely isolated" to "A few people liked him" to "Naruto regularly played with many children"

[@Cityweaver]

Kishimoto lost ALL teeth in the story. This story started with Naruto living on ramen and only having spoiled milk in his fridge, to "Oh, no, Third Hokage totally raised him and took him out fishing, n' everything!" He couldn't even decide on when Sasuke and Naruto met because people started needing him to explain why Naruto was so fffffreakin' obsessed with a boy that he met SIX MONTHS ago, so he changed it to them knowing each other for years. This is how you can tell My Hero Academia is 60% Naruto Fix-It.

[@CoOlKyUbI96]

Naruto also went from being this supposed “underdog” to someone who had so much preconceived advantages

[@nahte123456]

No it wasn't, why do people think this? No one liked him as a child, and as a teen he vaguely was allowed to hang out with a few kids that barely knew him. That's it.

[@Cityweaver]

@@nahte123456 Kishimoto trickled in a FEW tiny flashbacls into the story of him pulling pranks with Shikamaru, Kiba, and Choji. It wasn't like it was that much, he wasn't trying to gaslight us into thinking Naruto was friends all along with Shikamaru, BUT, 1) Kishimoto actually did gaslight Gaara's backstory and 2) writing that Naruto hung out with Shika, Cho, and/or Kiba even casually still contradicts the whole "children subconsciously feared/rejected me" thing. Kishimoto wrote that as the stock story, but he couldn't actually stomach writing Shikamaru treating Naruto like that, even if only in flashbacks.

[@nahte123456]

@@Cityweaver because you're wrong. In the Manga they never were bothered by Naruto beyond finding him annoying and only were around because they were all avoiding school. Not one of them could have said, for instance, what Naruto's hobby was. They didn't "hang out" they happened to be around each other.

[@chasewainscott8739]

It almost feels like Kishimoto wanted to write one of those “The villain succeeds but the heroes find a way to win in the end” stories, but the Arc went on for so long that he had to keep coming up with asspulls so Madara didn’t die anti-climactically. There are plenty of points where Kishimoto should have realized that the abilities he was giving to Madara were broken af and would lead to balancing problems later in the story (cough limbo clones cough).

[@dspace4514]

Imagine you're an anime only fan. After so many fillers in the war arc, you finally get to the supposed final battle against Madara... and then they pull that. I would have been pissed.

[@bocnovacat879]

Honestly I don’t think zetsu pulling the strings all along was the problem. I think that it actually makes sense that he made sure to set a conflict between the uchiha and senjiu. He started all the conflict and kinda just let it play its course knowing that one day the reincarnations would look for power and turn to him. Through most of the plot zetsu doesn’t really do anything because he doesn’t need too, all he had to do is lead Madara to believe that he can become the god of shinobi by gaining the power of the ten tails and then madara would set everything up for him. By doing this he manipulates madara into manipulating others. Zetsu has no control over a majority of the plot because he has no control over how characters like pain, Naruto, and Sasuke will act. Like everything to do with orochimaru has nothing to do with zetsu since orochimaru left the Akatsuki. The characters think and act independently, just they are lead to the end which zetsu desires

[@sorakuzunoha108]

Yeah, I thought this must be something very obvious in Naruto story if you deep watch it, their action is definitely not controlled, it's indeed their independent action, also it's always been implied that Black Zetsu only manipulate Uchiha and senju then it affects everything. I don't know why he came up with the idea that Black Zetsu is controlling/pulling every single action of every character in the world, he only make sure the result is as he wants and that is to get Madara (or anyone probably Obito) to activate Mugen Tsukoyomi and became ten tails jinchuriki (sage of six paths) to revive his mother, and that's it

[@phirefox375]

There are so many variables that has to go right for Zetsus "plan" to work. It cheapens the story when you say that he was behind everything and it such a shitty twist when all it have is was an alien and a shitty sequel.

[@Supahdenning]

@@phirefox375 Fundamentally, the only thing necessary for the plan is for someone to return all the Bijuu to the Gedo Mazo, become the Juubi Jinchuuriki and cast Mugen Tsukuyomi. This is not that hard to achieve. Almost anything could've gone differently and it would be easy to course correct, for example, the character of Obito is totally optional and the plan would still work out without him. Zetsu is still actively present and can improvise, it's not that hard.

[@Dave102693]

@@Supahdenning this

[@MRB96]

@@Supahdenning why are we trying so hard to make sense of zetsu’s millenia long master plan? I’m not ok with shutting down my brain just to try to believe that the last part of shippuden made any sense

[@chrisderkonig1379]

Zetsu being the villain and mastermind, exposing himself in the end, only shows one thing: He is a true ninja in a story about ninja!

[@clarashintaaa8814]

Yeah, sadly people outside Japan don't realize it lol. That backstab was a homage to the origin of many shinobi fiction. A stagehand (who disappears in the background) in old Kabuki Plays suddenly became part of the play and stabbed the main guy. The audience was shook, mad, etc. It also elevates Madara as a ninja character. He said he's no longer a shinobi... If his plan succeeded, he'd be the only one left to endure guarding over sleeping people. Shinobi as a word means "Heart, Knife" or "One, Endures". Metaphorically it means "those who endure like they're being stabbed in the heart". Madara couldn't escape the fact that he's a shinobi, a tool to be used.

[@khalilchafter9205]

@@clarashintaaa8814 Omg thank you, I was scrolling through the comments and was mad that I only find comments about how the story was ruined xD and I was about to write the same thing as you until I found out about your comment

[@smaragdchaos]

@@clarashintaaa8814 It was still bad writing at the end of the day, Kishimoto didn't execute his "homage" properly

[@clarashintaaa8814]

@@smaragdchaos ??? An aspect of writing around Obito's character revolves around "No One" stopping Madara. Since Obito failed to be No One, it was Black Zetsu that's actually been refered to. Madara said to Hashirama that's "no one could catch his back" under Nakano Shrine. He managed to trick Hashirama in the final valley battle. Readers were also shown that former 10-Tails Jinchuriki Obito could penetrate his chest, Black Zetsu in the end used the same body to backstab Madara. In the Japanese manga, only Black Zetsu used constant special archaic Katakana speech pattern. The mysterious voice that spoke and guided Madara to absorb Shinju was in fact in the same special speech pattern. There was also this convo after a hill climbing race between Madara and Hashirama: Hashirama: *depressed* Madara: Why do you get depressed so easily, honestly, that's your weakness. Hashirama: *suddenly started running to the top" I won! Madara: You were PRETENDING! And you STARTED BEFORE me. Hashirama: You are unexpectedly gullible, Madara. That's your weakness. Katakana speech pattern is used to emphasize and is an archaic way of speaking.

[@smaragdchaos]

@@clarashintaaa8814 It was bad writing that Black Zetsu turned on Madara in the first place, when we were explicitly shown that Madara created Black Zetsu, and that he somehow did anything noteworthy when Kishimoto boosted Madara to such obscene levels. The only good thing about it is that Naruto and Sasuke didn't get an undeserved win against Madara, but at the end of the day, nobody really proved Madara's ideology wrong, so the final clash of ideologies was left unresolved

[@purvy7240]

To be fair… Shounen Jump isn’t entirely to blame, Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner with how powerful he made Madara, even after Naruto and Sasukes six paths power ups he was still fending them off with ease and there was inevitably going to be something dumb that took him down

[@arachnid5557]

So introduce Kaguya who's more powerful 🤔

[@exodus9669]

@@arachnid5557 yes, introduce a villain with a clearer weakness

[@maalikserebryakov]

@@exodus9669kishimoto Simp

[@datboy038]

@@maalikserebryakov you replied to the wrong guy bro

[@BygoneT]

Discovery writers in a nutshell

[@paulohtobias]

To be fair the story was already destroyed way before that. I don't think he knew how to progress with the story after the Pain arc

[@Ach1mW]

True

[@wolfofwarframe3807]

Nah, the war arc had great potential, without Zetsu, the story could still work.

[@dahyun_love]

Rumors had it that Zetsu even manipulated Kishimoto to bend to his will.

[@Chazzvc]

Should have just let Gai kill Madara, Nobody would expect a side character to actually beat the main villain. Usually shounen manga require the main hero to be the answer to everything. In a way it would have made Naruto feel more realistic and unpredictable.

[@EverythingFan02]

I’ve been following up on this again recently, and it’s gotten better and worse. How Madara was beaten, being stabbed in the back due to his own arrogance and only then questioning his beliefs when he was dying with Hashirama, is probably one of the most satisfying ways he could have been defeated, given what a tight corner Kishimoto may have written himself into. It also would have reinforced Naruto and Sasuke’s clear dichotomy, Sasuke seeing power and cutting down the old system as the key to victory and Naruto seeing team work and Madara’s reconsideration as the real lesson, and foreshadow Sasuke giving up on being the sole arbiter of revolution, because even Madara couldn’t do it and admitted that Hashirama and Naruto were ultimately stronger, making Naruto right by his and Sasuke’s own standards. Aside from being poorly written by Naruto’s world-building standards (Kishsimoto has pulled retcons before, but they were generally slow and pretty graceful all things considered), Kaguya has nothing to offer in terms of character dynamics or themes, shes’s just a powerful obstacle that serves to repeat beats we already had covered in the story. Team 7 coming together again to stop the world-ending threat literally had just happened with Madara.

[@ppultra1]

9:00 The word vader is Dutch for "father" Geroge Lucas though "If this gives me money I'll do more"

[@Victor-hg3wg]

I think that zetsu’s control was only really emphasized on key events like madara turning evil or the hate between ashura and Indra. I think the regular things were inconsequential to his plan, like sasuke leaving or who joined the akatsuki. I think they all had agency except a few people who were heavily influenced by zetsus plan. I don’t really think it was that bad but I do agree they could have foreshadowed it a bit earlier then just when hagoromo told them about Kaguya when he gave them six paths powers.

[@didack1419]

Zetsu bolster the conflict in the shinobi world, didn't he? That just retcons one of the major plot points for a made-up fantasy conspiracy if true.

[@fernandoromero1700]

I agree I think it was the big stuff like I doubt he cared about all the little things, like this video is tryna make it seem like no one had free will and zetsu planned every little thing.

[@bdubs3695]

​@fernandoromero1700 the guy who made this video is emotional which clouds his logical thinking. It happens to the best of us

[@DeanStorm28]

4:21. There is also the Kaguya clan Kimimaru is from

[@franciscoriveros8586]

Rule of thumb is that if you can assure that something is a retcon, then it is a bad retcon

[@civilwarfare101]

It's a bad retcon if it makes the whole story seem pointless or makes a character less interesting.

[@TheRainyClouds]

"Right hand man, quite literally" *Shows left hand* This cracked mi up a little bit hahahaha

[@irgendwer3610]

"i planned everything" - Aizen.... I mean Black Zetsu

[@brad-leelindo25]

I remember when I saw obito back story for the first time and I tell my friends that he was obito because of the good eye placement, the hair and the fact that he was around Kakashi height but they were too dumb to believe me . Couple years later when it was revealed they were like " you never said that and sh*t " . Now I torture them by ( not remembering) stuff with them.

[@OldManJenkins69]

I thought tobi being obito was a red herring, it seemed too obvious and would argue with my friends there was no way. Boy was I wrong 😭

[@D_Owo]

@@OldManJenkins69 too obvious? in what way

[@brad-leelindo25]

@@OldManJenkins69 probably that was there thought processes too but didn't want to give me the satisfaction of being right

[@brad-leelindo25]

@@D_Owo he means that he wanted everyone to think it was obito then Boom! It was sishuie or something

[@slothrop9345]

@@D_Owo They decide to show us Obito's backstory right before the arc which introduces Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan, Kamui, and Tobi. Just seeing the Mangekyo on Kakashi alone should already give some hints that something might have happened with regards to Rin (we already know at this point you can only get it from killing the person closest to you, and with Obito already dead, and Rin very obviously not around in the present day, you can put 2 and 2 together). One of the first things people started saying when Tobi turned up was that he was Obito (even his name is a bit obvious. It's just Obito's name but the the "O" removed and the other two characters swapped around.

[@virn333]

Honestly madara or sasuke would have been fine final villians, this whole thing felt like kishimoto wanting to be "unique" and "subversive".

[@DygoKnight]

nah, they forced him into doing it

[@virn333]

@@DygoKnight damn. It's hard to tell how much Shonen jump helicopters their properties, because there's so much misinformation like "kishimoto said in an interview" blah blah lol.

[@justinarzola4584]

Not really, there was some foreshadowing with kimmimaro being descended from the kaguya clan( This is why kaguya has bone manipulation) but I think kishimoto forgot about it until he needed a way to defeat Madara.

[@randomico7632]

@@justinarzola4584 I dont think you know what foreshadowing means

[@justinarzola4584]

@@randomico7632 it's pretty poor foreshadowing but it's still foreshadowing.

[@Ninawilliams-Z5w3x]

9:12 Yes it was confirmed. Itachi being good was actually a retcon. He was originally intended to be a cold hearted psychopath.

[@SABaruj]

GUYS GUYS! This was a naruto dream where he and sasuke defeat madara and naruto becomes a hokage.. the reality is that madara defeated them GOOD LUCK, there is no need to thank me.

[@Firstsurugi]

Tobi's true purpose might not have been a retcon, but his involvement in the Uchiha massacre definitely was. AND, if it wasn't, it still dramatically reduces the impact of that Itachi feat. That bothers me almost as much as White Zetsu.

[@DygoKnight]

I agree

[@erikurizita6702]

Itachi wasn't strong enough to take out all the Uchiha. Just no way. Even Sasuke alluded to this in part one. There had to be another. Obito was always planned to be that other. I dont see any retcons.

[@Firstsurugi]

@@erikurizita6702 This is a non argument. You wouldn't be saying this if it hadn't been revealed that Obito helped him. Obito was arguably a great deal stronger than Itachi at that time, and could have gone in cold and did the entire Uchiha clan solo. It therefore completely erases the impact of the Uchiha massacre feat.

[@erikurizita6702]

@@Firstsurugi Dude... You must be an Anime watcher. The manga hinted there was a helper until about Shippuden era. Wanna know what chapter was between Naruto and the Shippuden era? The story of Obitio and Kakashi. Most people knew then who the helper was. Because Obito never died. The only shock that hit nost people was Madara and all his supposed plans and guiding.

[@Firstsurugi]

@@erikurizita6702 "Dude... You must be an Anime watcher." You'd be mistaken. In any case, your argument was "he couldn't have done it alone". Which, even with Obito intervening, is only true if someone says it is. There's zero reason to suspect that he "couldn't have done it alone", and manga or otherwise, the initial implication was that he DID. Sasuke wasn't our for revenge against "those responsible", he was after 1 person. Itachi was shown finessing multiple uchiha members, the only difficulty he could have run into would be if they all knew he was coming, or if Fugaku had chosen a death match against his son.

[@foreignfat6009]

Madara was also retconned into the series. Actually I didnt die and live for decades and then died. Very cool.

[@GolDFish-if1ov]

I don't thinks so. Madara have been introduced in the lore. He fought the first Hokage. He is not a retcon characters Unlike Kaguya.

[@Iskaid]

4:10 technically there was foreshadowing since the chunin exams, but Kaguya was more of a new aspect of it that was meant to be a piece of forgotten history in the world of shinobi. Everyone remembers that the Sage of the Six Paths had the Rinnegan, that the Uchiha and the Senju were rival clans, and there's a belief that the sharingan is a derivative of the byakugan; but the connections were never made of how they all fit together. He just dropped Kaguya on us as if we were supposed to know about her without revisiting the lore. Hashirama and Tobirama could have expanded on the clan feud to Sasuke by introducing the concept of Indra and Ashura being the two sons, and then Hagoromo still could appear later to explain it in greater detail along with the repercussions that come with reviving the Juubi.

[@vergilneedsmorepower473]

Who's been messing up everything? It's been Black Zetsu all along Who's been pulling every evil string? It's been Black Zetsu all along he's insidious (ha-ha!) So perfidious That you haven't even noticed And the pity is (the pity is) Pity, pity, pity, pity It's too late to fix anything Now that everything has gone wrong Thanks to Black Zetsu (ha!) Naughty Black Zetsu It's been Black Zetsu all along! And I killed Madara too AHAHAHAA

[@Nick-ij5nt]

I wouldn't say Kaguya showing up is necessarily a bad thing, it could've worked if a few things were changed. The issues with it are 1. it removes the payoff from Madara's arc 2. there was pretty much no foreshadowing. If the story was rewritten to include Kaguya as some legendary figure kind of like the sage of six paths and we had gotten a real fight between Naruto, Sasuke and Madara then it would've been fine. Maybe they're fighting for a long time, like 2 or 3 whole episodes and Madara is on the ropes and right as he's about to get sealed that's when Kaguya shows up.

[@D_Owo]

1. it doesn't rlly remove the payoff seeing as how madara got a satisfying an well written death 2. kaguya was foreshadowed from pre time skip

[@Nick-ij5nt]

@@D_Owo But he didn't lose to Naruto and Sasuke, he lost and some cheap bs way. How so? Don't try to say the "Kaguya clan" was foreshadowing of Kaguya lol.

[@D_Owo]

@@Nick-ij5nt love how u just ignore how he was given a well written death next to hashirama😂😂😂 also the kaguya clan is clear foreshadowing of kaguya💀💀💀 u not accepting it is literally just u ignore the good writing. Also she was referenced by madara and hagoromo

[@uchihastonetablet6061]

I think in massive retrospect it works well enough, but definitely isn't cathartic like the final villain should probably be. 1. I think she is the payoff for Madara's arc. Madara fought to end the duality of man and create a perfect world where only winners can exist. He had to accept all chakra, and thus, all contradiction in the world to achieve this. I don't think Naruto can defeat someone who does not conform to an ideological flaw or contradiction like Madara (who acknowledges its inevitability and strives to take it all for the sake of humanity). Madara was taken down by someone who essentially exists outside of the human condition he fought against, simply because she was not human. 2. There was *some* foreshadowing, but there could have been more. When we see Hashirama strike Madara down, he notices something on the cliffs, and it is revealed to have been Black Zetsu many dozen chapters later. People tend to forget about that detail, so I figured I'd mention it. I can't think of a way to foreshadow Kaguya more without giving it away, which is why I can give this a pass.

[@D_Owo]

@@uchihastonetablet6061 u explained it pretty well tbf

[@wildrabbit2237]

2 points I wanna make: 1. If they had done something as small as mention Kaguya and her story at the very beginning of Naruto while explaining the world, it would’ve fixed a lot of issues. Not all, but a lot. Maybe somehow tie in Zetsu? I dunno. 2. The way Black Zetsu was revealed to be the mastermind behind everything anyone has ever done ever instantly mad me think of Aizen from Bleach. Who did basically the EXACT same thing, down to making sure Ichigo was born, but was done in a MUCH better way imo Either way, I’m glad you made this video, I’d always thought Kishimoto just got really sloppy at the end, never realized Jump fucked him over as bad as they did Tite Kubo. Honestly makes me worried about Oda and One Piece

[@GolDFish-if1ov]

That's not gonna happen in OP because Oda already have the ending. There is no "backstabbing bs revealing new villain we just got introduced" in OPverse

[@wildrabbit2237]

@@GolDFish-if1ov Doesn't matter if he already has the ending. Kubo already knew how Bleach ended, but Jump told him he had 5ish chapters to wrap it up, which left us with the ending we got to Bleach. Basically, if Jump tells Oda he has "___" chapters to give One Piece an ending, that's all he has whether he knows the ending or not

[@GolDFish-if1ov]

@@wildrabbit2237 nope wrong on that one. First Bleach manga ended really fast. Second One piece is 1000 + chapters now and they won't extend no more. Third Oda and his team are the one who decides here. Because Fourth remember the Live Action? Oda has full control of that show Because the contract is that he will decide on what the final product would become. Fifth One Piece is in the Final Saga and Oda is wrapping up, There is a reason a remake One Piece anime is in Production now because We all know it's going to end soon.

[@wildrabbit2237]

@@GolDFish-if1ov Bleach manga ended fast because Jump FORCED it to end. Jump has complete control over all the title under them. Oda had say so in the live action adaptation, but Jump owns his contract. Don't tell me I'm wrong if you're not even going to do 5 minutes of basic research to prove it.

[@GolDFish-if1ov]

@@wildrabbit2237 you're totally wrong on that one 100% I mean if you truly research it like you said which is a total asspull. You would know that Oda have full creative control over the OP manga series right now. I don't know where the hel You Got that info. Oda owns the whole OP property at this time. There is reason why he is not on quota anymore and can take a break anytime he wants. Do a five minute research for your sake so U wouldn't Look like an ignorant buffoon. lol

[@uramis00]

Your first five minutes alone I think put my thoughts into words. Earned my sub.

[@DrakeMeatRider]

I think madara had to be killed like that because if madara was the final villian, it would mean he was right. Remember madara’s belief was that the shinobi world was irreparably broken due to everyones’ greed for power and violent tendencies. In other words their inability to compromise and think about the feelings of others. He believed the world was this way due to human nature. So his solution was to create a separate reality where everyone could mindlessly indulge. But his method behind doing this proved that he was the problem that was in the world. And when he existed the entire world united against him and he refused to believe that perhaps a solution could be found without mindless violence. He mindlessly indulged in the deaths and destruction of innocent people, without ever even once considering the point of view of someone else. And remember his only pet-peeve? It was people standing behind him. He never once trusted anybody, so zetsu killing him from behind was also thematically appropriate. But i think his death still could’ve been done way better.

[@chimeiamv]

I have never agreed with a KZbin video more in my entire life. I found myself nodding along with literally everything. Thanks for posting this to talk about the thoughts that I’ve tried to articulate to people for years. Now I can just link them to this video. And I definitely agree, you have to remove this shite-storm of a plot ending from your HC if you are ever gonna enjoy Naruto. I’ve come to the point in my journey as a Naruto fan that I literally just like it for the story and the characters, and I always describe it as ‘a story with wonderful potential whose author just got burned out’ or ‘a good story told badly’

[@desolation9706]

1:13 "his main goal was to blow up, and act like he dont know nobodayyyyyy ah ahah aha"

[@EthanCape-h1c]

🥭💥🤷

[@Frosty-gq5hk]

It's like the end of the story and they reveal it was all a dream

[@descendantofartorias2067]

I've thought about making a video about this for years. Kaguya is the worst antagonist in fiction and the Zetsu retcon ruins the cycles of pain theme from the Pain arc.

[@Borchert97]

Zetsu wasn’t a retcon, Kishimoto likely had the ending of Naruto on a rough draft by the end of part 1 Naruto. Kimimaro is stated to be from the Kaguya clan and possesses a watered-down version of her bone Kekkei Mora, and Black Zetsu is seen observing Naruto and Sasuke’s fight, which in hindsight makes perfect sense since he’s been monitoring the reincarnates for ages. There’s no way that was all done by mistake, Kishimoto planned this the same way he teased Tobi being Obito from day 1.

[@viniciorangel6223]

@@Borchert97 it’s hard to believe that a writing genius that created naruto out of nothing not being able to see that kaguya-zetsu betrayal was one of the worst writhing a man can create to a almost perfect story.

[@descendantofartorias2067]

@@Borchert97 I can see both sides of whether or not Zetsu is a retcon but I honestly don't care whether or not Zetsu is a retcon, either way it completely ruined the series.

[@Borchert97]

@@viniciorangel6223 that’s entirely subjective. I think it was crazy good writing and good foreshadowing on Kishimoto’s part to include Black Zetsu observing Naruto and Sasuke even back during part 1, showing that he had a personal interest in those two. Why else would he go out of his way to watch that fight? Maybe because Naruto is the Nine-Tails, sure, but we know that the Nine-Tails needed to be sealed last so there was really no reason to be there. He was also present for watching Sasuke’s fight with Itachi, which was likely to do with watching the Indra reincarnate progress.

[@viniciorangel6223]

@@Borchert97 obito ordered zetsu to go watch over the sauske vs itachi fight cuz obito was waiting for itachi to die so he can attack the hidden leaf and in the process obito wanted to recruits sasuke who had lots of potential to the akatsuki

[@marcelbenner993]

Tobi being Obito to me still is a major retcon. A weak ninja being able to handle complex jutsu and learning them in a matter of months simply by cell injection still sounds like a troll idea to be honest.

[@Andretti2Tone]

I do enjoy the irony in madras’s death alittle. He used everybody and everything to get what he wanted. And at the end he was killed by somebody that did the exact same thing

[@Samsungor]

The aliens in general ruined Naruto for me.

[@freefirecomics5097]

Yeah Zetsu being the main bad guy was such a stupid twist, Like why is the show called Naruto if everything happened because of Black Zetsu. Also because of him we got Kaguya who's just an empty she'll of a character, the only saving grace of Kaguya is she has a cool character design, that's it

[@justinarzola4584]

He wasn't even the final bad guy but a plot contrivance to bring kaguya, zetsu being the final villain is still dumb but it makes sense since he was around the story longer.

[@D_Owo]

zetsu wasn't the main villain. he was a device used to bring the main villain. it makes sense from a narrative standpoint

[@demetrioshilton5328]

@@D_Owo what Kishi did with Zetsu was giving us every bad ass thing we wanted out of Madara and then ripping it back because it got out of hand

[@D_Owo]

@@demetrioshilton5328 it didn’t ruin any of madara’s moments tho? He even got asatisfying death after next to hashirama

[@jakeforgey5378]

To be fair to Kaguya, i think we got a line in Shonen Jump (Part 1 ie Childhood Saga) that mentioned Kaguya attempted to eat the Fruit of the Shinju and then it jumps to the ten-tails fight with the Kids of Kaguya vs Juubi...

[@SephirothsBIade]

Madara canonically activated the Infinite Tsukuyomi. He won. The Jutsu is so powerful that we cant break out even when we know this.

[@Fragesed]

Imagine my dismay when one of my favorite characters in designs and abilities who can split in half and Wood Style, ended up destroying the plot when he was such a good minor character.

[@Jado-y6k]

Black zetsu: “it’s because I’m Black isn’t it” Sasuke do that and it would’ve been the plot twist of the century

[@agerard6297]

I seem to be the only one who liked how Madara was defeated. I don’t think getting his ass kicked by Naruto & Sakura or a Talk Bo Jutsu would have stopped him: he was set in his way. Learning that way- his lifetime plan was nothing but a lie felt to me the right path. My only issue is that I would have liked him to remain in the storyline, dealing with the “My life is a lie” revelation, or being the one to throw Zetsu out before dying himself.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

I always hate when stories remove all agency from characters just to service an infinitely more boring "endgame plot" usually through some shitty prophecy or evil red eyed big bad who was never ACTUALLY involved in the story prior.

[@DygoKnight]

Absolutely

[@D_Owo]

except when its explained properly and adds more value to the series like with naruto

[@royalfun1031]

@@D_Owo Garbage*

[@D_Owo]

@@royalfun1031 goatruto**

[@notime2583]

The problem with Naruto was trying to be more big that it could, each time raising the stakes of a series that started with a pretty down to earth story. Most of people agree that Pain should have be the end point of the plot, that fight felt like a final boss, its was grandiose ennough for the series without turning into a DBZ fuckfest. Felt that Kishimoto forgot that this was a series about a lonely underdog boy that everyone hated trying to become a hero to the village and the leader (hokage) and not the messias savior of the intire world, The series ended and he was not even Hokage.

[@notime2583]

@Lucas Walker Maybe Madara could be the last villain but they would need to rework a lot of the plot so that we dont get that garbage war arc. For me i would actually make sasuke the final villain after Pain, ending with him dying, because he is a criminal

[@AlwaysKenoma]

Something about zetsu being the one who carved the stones the Uchiha had rubbed me the wrong way.

[@twiss9341]

I remember thinking wow, this story can go anyyyywhere and go on for millionnsss of years, after I saw the Pain arc

[@D_Owo]

and it did

[@SirL_56]

@@D_Owo until zetsu stabbed madara. thats when naruto finished

[@royalfun1031]

No

[@D_Owo]

@@SirL_56 not rlly

[@Zakaker]

I'm not saying Zetsu's retcon was good, but tbh Bleach pulled off the _"Everything you did was part of my plan all along"_ too and it worked fine

[@joonas394]

3:54 Calling him Right hand man while showing picture him being in her LEFT hand

[@lemeres2478]

10:45 Naruto kicks Neiji's ass to prove that success isn't predetermined due to preexisting factors deteremined at the time you were born? HE COULD ONLY DO THAT BECAUSE NARUTO'S SUCCESS WAS PREDETERMINED BY ZETSU CENTURIES PRIOR TO NARUTO'S BIRTH. Neiji was right. It isn''t who you are, it is all about what clan you were born from. It is just that Naruto had several layers of secret hidden clans that were not obvious at the time.

[@Speculector]

Zetsu actually was my favorite Akatsuki member ever since he was first revealed and I hoped he would become an important character. But even I admit this was too much. Be careful what you wish for!

[@rToph]

nigga stop lying zetsu is not ur favorite character

[@bluekaiser7073]

I don't always agree on your takes. For exemple i like Kabuto. But i can respect that you're a good critic, if only because you explain greatly why retcons can be as good for a story as it can break it. And even without that your opinions are always detailed. Great video! I like your work.

[@thecracker6000]

If this video was an example of this person being a good critic then I'm so glad this is the only video I've watched of his. I have my fair share of problems with black. Godlike madara with a complex about people standing behind his back not noticing/doing anything about black, naruto not sensing his ill intent, or even madara for that matter, some plot holes, a barely foreshadowed(not non-existent, but barely existent) retcon. But the point made in this video about agency makes absolutely no sense and is hot garbage. Everybody still had their intentions, motivations and personality. Nobody lost agency here. Just because their actions lead them to something they didn't expect doesn't make them loose agency. Everybody was still active agents in their own rights in this context. Like, I still literally agree with Madaras infinite virtual reality heaven plan. And black fits into these well too. Specially with the stone tablet stuff. This dude just used some writing buzzwords with no understanding of what they mean and yall just going along with it because,"Zetsu bad." is the popular opinion. Yes, Zetsu is bad. But just because Zetsu bad, "Zetsu bad for being useless to the story" doesn’t become right. Someone still has to critic bad things for the right reasons.

[@TotallyNotSena]

​@@thecracker6000 None of their choices were ever choices dude. Zetsu literally said the story of the Shinobi was orchestrated by him, he's responsible for every action everyone took because HE presented the options. He choose what they could choose, manipulated what they would choose. Nobody had agency because every single thing that happened was him, that's what was stated.

[@starslayer18]

I honestly didn’t have a problem with Black Zetsu turning out to be more than what he lead on. My issue came from Kaguya and the whole shoe-horned space ninja/aliens. Honestly, if kishimoto just left the Jubi has the main threat this could’ve been pretty good. Imagine, the Jubi was split apart; it’s power into the Bijuu and it’s body (the Gedo statue) was sealed into the moon. But there was one last part, the mind (soul) which was Black Zetsu. Throughout the show and manga we are taught about how the three focus points are mind (Black Zetsu), body (Gedo statue), and chakra (bijuu). This still keeps the Jubi as the main threat while still giving a decent twist to a already established character. This Zetsu acted definitely to the White Zetsu and even displayed wood release which the white Zetsu couldn’t do. The incomplete Jubi was using wood release, that was a connection that could be made between these two. But instead we got space ninjas and a reincarnation plot line that really didn’t need to be there. You could’ve had Black Zetsu (Jubi) absorb the power Madara had and almost complete himself at that point he was just missing the other half of Kurama. Then giant fight against the strongest Bijuu. My issue with the final arc of Naruto rests solely on the addition of Kaguya, the space ninja, and the whole reincarnation plot line.

[@dylancutlip8711]

Kaguya was actually referenced with Kimimaru and his clan hailing from Kaguya. But that was it. No other mention or build up til her appearance.

[@Jarikraider]

Zetsu is the mastermind behind all of the filler arcs.

[@BZgA]

3:28 give me a source for that

[@jsw78]

He made it up

[@edwardalyassin7887]

Darth Vader was almost definitely always meant to be Lukes father. Vader means father in Dutch.

[@lonelyrain5480]

Lol I just commented that 😂

[@rakdos36]

George lucas himself said the father twist only came into being while wrting the second movie. There is a prototype script of the first movie that was later adapted into a comic called "the star wars". In it the villian already was called vader but everything was so vastly different to the finished movie that were was no space for any father twist in it.

[@neroolocutor3531]

Madara is imortal Zetsu who is a Dark Souls Player "Nah I'd Backstab"